I have long been a proponent of American cheese, and you know what takes a juicy, fresh off -the -grill burger from good to legendary?
Borden cheese. Made with real milk from American dairy farm families, Borden cheese brings that rich, creamy taste you love.
I love their American cheese, but they got a lot of other varieties.
If you want something else, want something spicy, try Borden's all -new jalapeno jack.
Or go with mozzarella.
Borden's mozzarella melts are always ooey -gooey, melty, and satisfying.
This summer, brighten up your burger with Borden.
Look for Borden products at a store near you.
Are you still quoting 30 -year -old movies?
Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days?
Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted?
If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99 % of places that take credit cards nationwide, and every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back.
Welcome to the now.
It pays to discover.
Learn more at discover .com credit card based on on the February 2024 Nelson Report.
Have you fired up your grill this summer yet?
I certainly haven't.
I plan to be firing it up a lot more, which means I'm thinking about burgers, okay?
And that's why this week's reheat is for you and me, really, because I like talking about burgers.
We are diving deep into burgers and also talking in this reheat about regional burgers.
There are different kinds of burgers that are made in different parts of America.
And we know about regional pizza.
We know about regional hot dogs, regional burgers.
Finally getting their credit, thanks to George Motes, who you'll hear in this episode.
And we have an update.
George Motes, hamburger historian.
He has a restaurant now.
In 2023, he opened Hamburger America in New York City.
It's a retro luncheonette that, yes, of course, serves burgers, including George's own take on the Oklahoma Fried Onion Burger.
And get this, Hamburger America just made the New York Times list of the 100 best restaurants in New York City, which is incredible.
And I'm ashamed to admit I haven't been there yet, but I'm going to go.
Anyway, if you have a Sporkful episode you want us to pull out of the deep freezer and reheat, drop me a line at hello at sporkful .com.
Thanks so much. Enjoy.
So, George, tell me about the career arc of America's foremost burger historian.
Well, it wasn't really supposed to be a career, that's for sure.
This is The Sporkful.
It's not for foodies, it's for eaters.
I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people and welcome to our summer cookout spectacular.
Insert firework sound effect here.
Later on, we'll get an incredible burger recipe from chef Jehangir Mehta that includes 25 % mushrooms. Then later, Kenji Lopez alt stops by for a debate that I promise is going to spark some conversation at your next socially distanced gathering.
But first, George Motes is in fact America's foremost burger historian.
historian. He's written books about burgers, made TV shows and films on the subject.
And he's got a web series called Burger Scholar Sessions.
He started out as a cameraman, and whenever he had to travel for a film or TV shoot, he'd tack on a couple days to eat the regional burger of whatever place he was in.
Soon, he started filming those adventures, and he became obsessed.
But a lot of people didn't get it.
Even people who were making burgers didn't understand their own importance.
People who were making them said, it's just a burger, you know, George, calm down.
that the hamburger was a symbol of real American pride and ingenuity, I think it's a very important story to tell.
And so what is that historical context?
Tell me about burger history.
The short history of the hamburger is that it came to America, we know, from German immigrants that had to leave from the port of Hamburg, Germany.
When they were in Hamburg, they had to wait for passage mostly, sometimes for a week, two weeks, sometimes a month, and they had to eat cheaply and eat well.
So they ate steak in the style of Hamburg, Hamburg, which is chopped steak served on a plate with onions and something in gravy, whatever else.
As people started to emigrate through the United States into the Midwest, a lot of Germans moved to the Midwest and brought with them the Hamburg steak.
State fairs started to pop up all over the Midwest and there was a need for food, especially food that was portable.
The hot dog predates the hamburger's invention by a few years.
And I can almost guarantee that people who were at state fairs who were selling Hamburg steak on a plate with a knife and a fork watching hot dogs walk by thinking i need to have that right right i need that technology i need bun technology if i'm going to sell this food at this fair we believe that that happened at about seven different fairs almost at the same time within the same few years mid 1880s to 1890 was whenever those first inventions started happening at state fairs one of the most important parts is believe it or not is the the introduction of White Castle.
They were the ones who turned the hamburger from working class sustenance into an actual thing that became one of the most popular food items in the history of the United States.
Is it true that White Castle ripped off white manna in Hackensack, New Jersey?
No, it was probably, I mean, not ripped off, but here's the story.
Before they were at White Castle, it was one guy working out of a very small shoe repair shack in Wichita, Kansas.
He learned from someone else, if you smash some balls of beef on a piece of metal and put them on buns with some onions, you're going to sell a lot of them.
And he did. He sold a ton.
And another guy came up to him who was a real estate investor, and he said, I would like to invest in your idea.
Let's make a few of these in town and sell a lot of burgers.
And that became White Castle.
And they decided that they chose White Castle because white signified cleanliness, which is very important at that point.
And castle signified strength.
Anybody who was opening up a hamburger joint at that time for the next few years, if you did not put the word white in your hamburger restaurant, you were not going to sell burgers.
So White Manor is one of those.
White Manor is one of the original whites.
Not a White Castle, but it's one of the original copies of White Castle.
What George says reminds me of the story of Wonder Bread.
When Wonder Bread first came out, their slogan was untouched by human hands, which also was supposed to signify cleanliness or purity.
This was all happening in the years after Upton Sinclair's book, The Jungle, a novel about the meatpacking industry, which made Americans think a lot more about what was in their food.
It was also a time when a lot of new immigrants were coming in from Europe.
They were working in meatpacking plants and bakeries, and there was a common stereotype that they were dirty, bringing disease.
disease the basic message with wonder bread and white castle white food is clean food here's another shocking fact about white castle it was founded in 1921 which is before the invention of the cheeseburger so that history is very interesting george but to me that the burger in this story is still kind of adrift in the wilderness yes and it does not find its true calling until it meets cheese when does the burger meet the cheese there's been a few claims to the invention of the cheeseburger for years.
I've called a place in Louisville, Kentucky, called Kalin's as the birthplace of the cheeseburger, but that was in the 30s.
We've now found out from actual menu accounts that it goes back as far as 1920, we believe, 1924, 1925 at a place called The Right Spot in Pasadena, California.
And once people started eating cheeseburgers, I imagine it like the cave parable.
People came came out of the cave and they looked back into the cave and were like, how could we have been living like this?
Basically. As a burger historian, George is not just a generalist. He's also spent years eating, cataloging, and cooking America's many specific regional burgers.
Regional burgers are important because people, I think they consider the hamburger to be one thing.
You know, it's beef and cheese and some lettuce and tomato.
but when you actually get out there and start digging and you get off the beaten path and you get away from the fast food you do find some amazing regional expressions out there an expression of the locale in many ways uh the burger represents not just the ingredients that you can find there but the people themselves who actually make and eat burgers and how they appreciate them all right george are you ready for the lightning round i'm ready go ahead hit me me?
I'm going to name a regional burger.
I want you to give me its brief history, tell me what it is, how it's made, and then I want you to tell me the hallmark of an especially good one.
Okay. First up, the Mississippi Slug Burger.
Mississippi Slug Burger is a burger that has no slugs in it.
Right. It was invented actually in the 1920s.
Also, same as when the rise of the the burger all sort of happened at the same time.
But this burger had yesterday's breadcrumbs that were crushed up into it and thrown into the meat and mixed in to actually extend the meat so you had more meat for the day.
There's some weird science that goes on when you add breadcrumbs only to beef and you mix it in and you cook it on a flat top.
When the fat renders from the beef, it actually goes right into those breadcrumbs and makes them crispy and tasty as hell.
Now, if you go and ask for a slug burger today, which still exists in Northern Mississippi, you're probably going to get something that's not beef at all.
It's actually pork and soy flour, which is what it morphed into over the years.
In fact, most people in the region don't even believe me when I tell them what there was originally a beef burger with breadcrumbs in it.
Interesting. And what to you is the hallmark of an especially good Mississippi slug burger?
Size. Small, very small burger, cooked super flat, super crispy, and served.
Usually sometimes doubles.
I think doubles probably the way to go.
You get two sides per patty, so you've got four crispy sides served on a bun.
Got it. Next one, the Cuban frita, which is now easier to find in Miami than in Cuba.
Tell me about the Cuban frita.
Take a Cuban roll, or actually, they actually can make Cuban bread and make them into the shape of a bun.
And it's the patty, actually.
I wouldn't normally recommend this, but the patty is a spiced patty.
It has lots of spices inside of it.
Cumin, you're thinking of garlic and paprika, is actually mixed into the beef, and it's cooked on a flat top at a very low temperature.
It's not seared, it's kind of bubbling in its own juices.
To that, they also add almost like a very thin hot sauce, tomatoey hot sauce that it cooks in its own sauce.
After that, some onions get thrown on top of that.
It's served with thin -sliced julienne potatoes on top of a bun with more onions, and believe it or not, ketchup, which I wouldn't normally put on a burger either, and then onto a Cuban roll.
It's fantastic. And those fries are almost like, I mean, these are like very thin shoestring fries.
eyes. They almost look like the ones that you can get out of a can that are so good.
Potato sticks. Yeah, potato sticks.
Yeah. If you go to a place that actually serves potato sticks on top, you can tell if they're fresh or not.
You want to go to the place that actually has the gear or the machinery to make homemade potato sticks, basically.
Right. What's the mark of an especially good frita?
Freshness. It was all fresh.
You can tell. There are a couple of fantastic places in Miami.
One place I need to plug, of course, they're wonderful, called El Rey de las Fritas.
So They're actually a small chain, family owned chain.
El Rey has the DNA to go back to the beginning of the Frita in America, which is back in the 1970s, really, when it took off.
One more in the lightning round, the Connecticut steamed cheeseburger.
Another great one and very unique and pretty much only exists in the geographic center of Connecticut.
It's made, cooked in a steam box.
And the history is a little bit nebulous.
It goes back to the early 50s.
Connecticut was a lot of metalworking going on.
A very ingenious guy came up with an idea to make a box, almost like a filing cabinet with little drawers in it, to put meat.
The cheese actually goes into one of the little compartments to steam as well.
So you end up with this burger, which is cooked through.
Actually, it's steamed, and it's very gray.
It's almost like a gray, soft matter.
They don't add anything to it, any salt or anything.
But then they take that cheese.
The cheese turns into this molten goo that gets poured on top of it.
And that's really what people go for.
It sounds disgusting, tastes incredible.
Incredible. It's a great experience in Connecticut for sure.
So, George, we checked through a few regional burgers.
I know there are many more out there.
You know, it's interesting to me, like, I feel like a lot of us have some idea of regional pizzas.
We know, we understand there's New York, Chicago, Detroit, St. Louis pizzas.
There's L .A. and San Francisco burritos.
There's Memphis and Kansas City ribs.
these different regional variations on other foods are well known throughout the national consciousness, and yet I feel like there's very little understanding, and I have very little understanding too, of these different regional burgers.
Why is that, do you think?
Well, first of all, a lot of the variations on regional hamburgers are hyper -regional.
They really only exist within a, even sometimes even a certain town, sometimes even only in a certain in a restaurant.
Also, I do believe it's still worth fighting.
I personally, every day, am fighting an uphill battle to get people to understand and appreciate the hamburger, the regional hamburger specifically, because people don't see the hamburger still to this day as something that could be considered to be important.
Someone once told me, they said it takes, you know, 12 to 14 hours to make a pulled pork sandwich. It takes three minutes to make a hamburger.
People don't really consider the hamburger to have a process or a real history.
So this is, i believe that's really part of it they they don't they don't take the burger as seriously as they should is the way they would for barbecue i wish they did there are some fancy pants folks out there that like to insult american cheese george i know what it sounds just by that response like you may have tussled with these folks folks, before as I have. Yes, I would like to address all those cheese haters out there.
They have to understand, first of all, that American cheese is really nothing more than unaged cheddar cheese.
That's it. But, George, it's processed.
American cheese is processed.
How could you eat something that's so processed?
Every single cheese out there is processed.
Everything. It's very important to understand that it's just more processed to it, but it's one of the greatest cheeses for burgers because it melts so perfectly.
It's scientifically specifically engineered to melt perfectly on a burger.
Amen. I'm with you, George.
Also, all those haters that want to put cheddar or whatever they want to put Gouda on a burger, and you have to force that cheddar to melt, you know what you're doing?
You're actually overcooking the burger at that point.
Yes, 100%. In addition to traveling around and eating a whole bunch of burgers, George also cooks them.
He's known to make hundreds or even thousands at a time at food festivals.
In general, he prefers a loosely packed burger made with 80 % lean ground beef.
None of that 90 -10 stuff.
stuff. You want a juicy burger?
Look, the juice is melted fat, okay?
So you have to use higher fat beef.
He also prefers using a flat top griddle instead of a grill so every part of the burger is touching the cooking surface.
And one regional version of this type of burger, the Oklahoma Fried Onion Burger, has become one of George's signatures.
You drop a three -ounce ball of meat, ground beef, usually 80 -20, sometimes 75 -25, chuck only, a sprinkle with some salt.
To that, that, I add a wad of very, very thin sliced sweet onion that gets smashed into the patty with a very stiff spatula.
So picture like fine ribbons of onion dropped on top of the burger.
So it's like half burger, half onions.
And then you smash the whole patty.
So it's paper thin.
You cook it like that for a minute or two and flip it over.
And you end up stewing these these onions into the beef.
It becomes intermingled and crispy and in parts and and soft and other parts.
A slice of cheese goes on top, American cheese.
And then from there, it goes onto an untoasted bun and served.
And that's it. Simple as that.
And how cooked do the onions end up?
Well, the way I like to scientifically describe it is that the onions actually end up in three different stages of cooked.
Okay. The onions that are now smashed and now are around the burger touching the flat top get very crispy because sweet onions cook very fast and crisp up quickly because of the high sugar content.
The onions now that are in the center, once you flip it over, have become steamed.
They actually, they do release a lot of their onion juice and actually help the flavor of the burger.
And the ones that are right dead in the center, not crunchy, but almost just barely cooked in a way.
So you have barely cooked, you have steamed, soft, and you have crispy onions all in the same, pretty much sometimes in one bite.
Wow. Now, I got to try it.
I mean, I've seen your Instagrams. I've seen the pictures.
I've seen the videos.
It looks fantastic.
I need to eat it. I, too, have adopted the flat top method.
You know, what we want in our beef is we want the Maillard reaction.
We want that high heat right on the beef.
We want the beef to caramelize.
We want it to get crispy edges.
And when you have more hot surface touching the beef, you get more of that.
Exactly. So I, too, have adopted the flat top.
I smash the burgers.
I salt. I flip. When I go to place the burger on the bun, bun.
I put it on the bun cheese side down.
I believe that you want the cheese closer to your tongue to accentuate cheesy goodness.
And I believe that the cheese creates a seal that protects the bottom bun from turning soggy.
Interesting. What is your take on my cheese on the bottom technique?
I mean, traditionally, just, you know, going way back to the beginning of like the pub burger, New York City pub burger, they would put a slice of raw onion on the bottom specifically for that reason, to protect the bottom bun from being devoured by burger grease.
Interesting. But you sound skeptical.
I just have never really seen it.
And I don't really know, when you bite into a burger, you're getting all those flavors at the same time.
You should be at least. It doesn't really matter where the cheese is as long as it's in there somewhere.
I don't know if I agree with that, George.
You're right that it does all get mashed up, but I think that when you get the cheese in the bottom, it just heightens that cheesiness, that creaminess, that mouthfeel.
Look, you know, George, I know that you're a purist and I know that you're kind of steeped in history and you like to preserve traditions.
And that all has its place.
But I think that, you know, we also have to continue to push forward. I agree.
If we didn't, then the hamburger steak would never have been placed on a bun in the first place.
It never would have had cheese added to it over the years.
And all the burgers, the variations that you revere would never have come upon us.
And so I'm going to continue to push forward. And I hereby advocate the cheeseburger with the cheese on the bottom.
Good luck with that.
That's George Motes.
You can find info on his books, events and more at georgemotes .com.
If you want to watch George cook some of the regional burgers we discussed, check out his YouTube series.
It's called Burger Scholar Sessions.
Coming up, a different type of burger.
Chef Jehangir Mehta will tell us how to make a blended burger with lots of mushrooms, seasoned kind of like a lamb kebab.
Then, chef and food writer Kenji Lopez -Alt joins me to take a call from a listener who wants to argue about the definition of a salad.
Stick around. And now, a delicious word from our sponsors.
Maine, where life the way it should be transforms all who encounter its spectacular landscapes.
Rugged coastlines, pine -scented trails, sandy beaches, sparkling lakes, and tranquil forests inspire you to reflect and make meaningful moments.
They offer endless opportunities for adventure and exploration.
Whether peddling or paddling, hiking or biking, Maine has more than enough outdoor spaces to make the most of long summer days.
Relish in exquisite flavors harvested from the ocean and the rich soils of orchards and fields.
Maine's makers are rooted to its heritage while boldly branching into new ways of thinking, doing, and being.
Connect with its people in warm and authentic towns, which beckon you to stroll art galleries and locally owned shops where generations of artists, writers, entrepreneurs, and craftspeople see the world anew.
It's tempting to do it all when you visit, but take a beat and a breath.
Get a feel for the time and tempo of Maine.
Simple Pleasures Scenic Adventures, where every route is the scenic one.
Discover more at visitmaine .com.
Man, every month my wireless bill comes in, I feel like I get sticker shock all over again.
And I'm trying to plan beach trips, barbecues, three -day weekends, and my wireless bill shouldn't be holding me back, right?
That's why I'm actually thinking about making the switch to Mint Mobile.
With plans starting at $15 a month, Mint Mobile gives you premium wireless service on the nation's largest 5G network.
It's BorgFull producer Andres O 'Hara.
You made the switch to Mint Mobile.
How'd it go? Oh, it was great.
It was incredibly easy to set up, and then my phone was ready to go.
I was texting, emailing, using social media.
And I was even checking Slack on the train as I'm headed to work.
And the connection, it was really good.
Well, listen, this year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank.
Get your summer savings and shop premium wireless plans at mintmobile .com slash sporkful.
That's mintmobile .com slash sporkful.
Upfront payment of $45 for a three -month, five -gigabyte plan required, equivalent to $15 per month.
New customer offer for first three months only, then full -price plan options available.
When I travel, of course, I want to eat something in a place that I can't get at home, something super special.
But you can't always get on a plane for a special meal, and that's why I love Goldbelly.
Goldbelly is an incredible site that delivers iconic, famous foods from top restaurants across the U .S., shipped free to any doorstep nationwide.
I was craving Chicago deep -dish pizza recently.
I ordered up some Lou Malnati's delivered to my door.
I love ordering barbecue from Goldbelly.
Barbecue travels very well.
It's one of the best things to have shipped to you.
If you're craving some, Gold Belly ships the legendary Franklin's barbecue straight from Texas to your door.
And it's so fun when that cake or barbecue or stone crab shows up at your door because you feel like this special meal, this special place has been transported to you.
My family and I love to have special meals.
When Gold Belly delivers, it's like it's a party in our house.
So if you're looking for that perfect gift or maybe you want to impress your friends and family with an epic meal next time you host, Go to goldbelly .com and get free shipping and 20 % off your first order with promo code SPORTFUL.
That's goldbelly .com, code SPORTFUL for free shipping and 20 % off your first order.
I am loving these new European linen drawstring beach shorts that I recently got from Quince.
The color is great.
They're so soft and comfortable, and they look great.
Like, you can wear them to the beach. You can wear them at a backyard barbecue.
cute you can also wear them out to a nice summertime dinner and they go great with the organic cotton silk polo that i also got from quince the newest fashion trend is finding clothes that feel good and last that's where quince comes in their lightweight layers and high quality staples will become your new everyday essentials and they have a ton of stuff for women too from summer dresses tops and blouses pajamas active wear bathing suits so stick to the staples that last with elevated essentials from quince go to quince .com slash sporkful for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns that's
q -u -i -n -c -e .com slash sporkful to get free shipping and 365 day returns again quince .com slash sporkful Welcome back to another Sporkful Reheat I'm Dan Pashman You ever go to our show page in your podcasting app And you're scrolling back and you're like Oh, that seems like a good episode How did I miss that?
Well, you missed it because you're probably not following our show In your podcasting app And it's really important that you do So please, do this right now Now, go to our show page in your podcasting app of choice.
If it's Apple Podcasts or Spotify, you click follow.
Other apps, maybe it's a plus sign or a heart or a favorite or the word subscribe.
Whatever it is in your app, it's really important that you click it.
That way you won't miss great episodes.
Super quick and easy.
You can do it right now.
Thank you so much. Okay, back to our summer cookout spectacular.
Now, we eat about four times more meat today than we did 200 years ago.
And there's a cost to producing all that meat.
You have to feed a cow 13 pounds of cow food for every one pound of meat it generates for us.
Clearly, this is not sustainable.
Now, one of the really easy and delicious ways to address this issue is by mixing more veggies into our meat.
We use Angus beef. We are just going to just chop some portobello, which we use in our burger.
after they have been cooked in, we just literally massage it in and then make a patty with it.
This is Chef Jehanger Mehta.
We're in the kitchen at his restaurant Graffiti in New York, and he's making me his signature graffiti burger.
About 25 % of it is mushrooms and other herbs and spices, hence the term blended burger.
It's kind of like the hybrid car of burgers.
So it uses less beef, which is good for all the reasons that I talked about.
But that's not why he does it.
In fact, on the menu, it just says graffiti burger.
No mention of the mushrooms. You don't think it's different.
It's just there. We've never viewed ourselves as how this whole trend is, oh, veg -centric restaurants.
We never call ourselves that.
This is our food, and this is what we do.
So basically, that's why we call it a graffiti burger, and the restaurant graffiti, too, because it is just my style of food.
If people ask me, what is that?
That's my style of food.
Some of that style comes from growing up in Mumbai.
Some of it comes from training at the great French restaurant Jean Georges.
He makes small burger patties.
They're actually like mini burgers.
And he seasons them almost sort of like the lamb kebabs you'd see on the streets of Mumbai.
Garlic, onion, cilantro, turmeric, cumin, coriander, chili powder.
I mean, the works. And then on to the griddle.
So we cook it about to medium rare.
where again, if someone wants it differently, we are always willing to do it differently.
But if someone orders it and they say, I want it well done, doesn't that make you a little bit sad?
No, I have always been in the belief that if you like it that way, then why should we be the one judging you?
Because your palate enjoys it that way.
I think this is one thing I learned from, this was years ago, I worked for John George when we had first opened John George as a restaurant.
wrong and at that time smoking was allowed at the bar and one day I heard like the chef saying his executive chef saying that I can't believe they're doing this nine course tasting menu with this amazing bottle of wine that they have bought for like I don't know four thousand five thousand and they and they keep smoking the whole time every course here they can't even taste anything and I heard John George repeat and say well if that is how they enjoy their meal so be it they They like that palette of that smoky aspects of cancer.
That's their point.
Not me. Jahangir puts the small burger on a grilled mini bun and he tops it with lettuce, red onion and fried enoki mushrooms. One thing I have to say, I never understood how Americans can open their mouth so large to put in anything.
Like when I first came, I could not believe how you can eat some of the things over here.
And so I think this is the largest, I think, a two and a half ounce patty is the largest I can open my mouth.
So that's why we have it at two and a half ounces.
That was the architecture of it.
So function over form.
Function over form.
Though I am American, I'm very proud of it.
But I've still not mastered that aspect.
It was not a question on the citizenship test. Well, I'll have to call the citizenship office about that.
Should we eat? Absolutely.
All right. Mmm. Oh, man.
It's so good. Mmm. The crunchy mushrooms on top.
I mean, I know it's not your goal to trick people, but if you wanted to trick people and tell people that it was a full beef burger, I would definitely believe you.
It's really, really nice.
I think because we put so many spices and herbs in it, and we also call it a kebab burger, it's like a style of a kebab, and people actually think it's made with lamb.
And I think if we were in some third world country, we could have just said yes to it and made more money on it.
But we like to be a little more honest here, I think, in this country.
That's not going to get you very far.
That's Chef Chahangar Mehta.
Since we last spoke to him, graffiti shut down, but you can find a link to the recipe for the graffiti burger on sporkful .com.
So we've covered a wide range of burgers for your summer cookout.
Now it's time to talk about a side dish and to give you a conversation topic in the process.
Did I say conversation?
Sorry, I meant argument.
Joining me now is our friend Kenji Lopez -Alt, James Beard Award winning author of The Food Lab, Better Home Cooking Through Science.
Hey, Kenji. Hey, how's it going?
So we're going to take a call now.
Are you ready to go to the phones and handle a pretty controversial topic?
Definitely. All right, let's do it.
Hi, who's this? Hi, this is Lila from Los Angeles.
I have a problem with the naming conventions of salad.
Okay. When people call potato salad and pasta salad salad, this is a corruption of the term.
Okay, why? For me, they're just not salads.
They don't have all the characteristics that you would generally think of as salad.
So what are those characteristics?
Define what you, give to me what you think should be the definition of salad.
I would say a lack of leafy greens does not fully disqualify it, but definitely some sort of vegetable base.
So you would still consider like an Israeli salad with cucumbers and tomatoes to be a salad or, you know, or a Greek salad with onions and tomatoes and feta cheese to be a salad?
Yeah, I would consider that a handicap salad, but definitely still a salad.
But a ham salad or an egg salad, you'd say, is not a real salad.
Not a real salad. So you think that if it has a vegetable base, then that is a salad.
But isn't a potato a vegetable?
Yes, but it serves—it doesn't serve the purpose of a vegetable.
Usually people order salads to strive to be healthy, maybe have a refreshing accompaniment to a meal.
But that's not what the potato salad is usually used for.
It's used as a starch side.
I think you're trying to get her in a trap here.
And, you know, I think the potato is a vegetable is sort of the, you know, the George Bush definition of a vegetable.
Like French fries and ketchup should count as vegetables.
I'm with her on this.
Kenji, I appreciate your appeal.
Who invited this guy here?
How old are you, Lila?
Well, I actually just turned 17 today.
Oh, happy birthday.
Oh, happy birthday.
Thank you. So you are what year in high school?
Junior? Yeah, I'm a junior.
Okay. In common usage, the word salad means two different things.
I think most of the time the context tells us which we're talking about.
I would like to arrive at one definition, though, that can encompass both salads we're talking about.
A technical definition of a salad is, you know, any small chopped, generally vegetable based ingredients that are tossed in a dressing, typically served cold, not always served cold, so under the technical definition, I think a potato salad, a chicken salad, a macaroni salad.
I think those are all technically salads.
If you have to specify what genre of salad, it's not a real salad.
My friend Justin Warner from Food Network, I talked about this with him once, and he had a definition that I'm going to steal right now.
A salad is a mixed, a mixture of foods that have not been cooked together.
Interesting. Some of them may have been cooked cooked separately, but they are not then cooked together.
Okay. Okay. So, okay.
I got it. So, so I guess a sandwich is a salad then.
That doesn't really feel like a mixture.
If you were to take a couple of different sandwiches and chop them into cubes and mix them in a bowl, that would be a sandwich salad.
And I'll bet it could be good.
So, I mean, I think that definition is a good technical definition.
I think it doesn't address address Lila's question, though.
Can I ask you something?
What would you call a pasta salad or potato salad?
Do you think that there is a better way to describe it?
Or do you think we need a completely new term?
I would call it a pasta dish is a term.
But if you say to someone, I'm going to have a picnic.
Hey, Joe, you bring the burgers.
Bill, you bring the Cheetos.
And Mary, can you bring the pasta dish?
Is she going to know what you're talking about?
I mean, is she going to bring a pasta salad?
Or is she going to bring a tray of baked ziti?
I think context is important.
Usually with a barbecue, you'd want a fresh side dish.
So I don't think there's really any trouble in saying pasta dish because she would know that it should be something fresh, cold, not a baked seedy, like you would say.
Well, what if Mary isn't as bright as you?
Then we will specify for Mary.
so Lila if you were bringing this case before a court of law one of the questions they would ask you is what damages have you suffered as a result of this injustice can you cite a time in your life where this has actually been a real problem yeah well I might be a little biased on this because personally I really dislike mayonnaise now the truth comes out yeah she's mayonnaiseist so at my school we often have potlucks and recently we had a potluck for my latin class I was promised that there would be chicken bread cheese and salad so I said to myself great that's my vegetable filling for the day
I wouldn't have to pack other supposedly healthy food items But I showed up, and there was pasta.
It was pasta held together by mayonnaise.
And for me, that was not what I was promised.
It's a deceitful presentation of salad.
Okay, that's fair. That's a very good real -world example, Lila, and you have proven to me that you sustain some sort of damage here.
But it seems to me that the only solution really is to come up with a new word preferred for potato salad, egg salad, chicken salad?
I would put them under the umbrella of deli salads, you know, the kind of salads that can be dressed and held indefinitely and then just scooped out with like an ice cream scoop and put onto your plate at the cafeteria or at the deli.
And I think that if you're going to call something just salad, that I agree with her, it's something that you expect to be freshly dressed.
You expect it to be relatively light and fresh and crispy.
All right, I can run with that.
If we could go back in time, Lila, and you could redo that potluck, you would have been told in advance, we're going to have a bunch of deli salads.
Yes. I would have known that my vegetable fill would not have been met.
Yes, but your mayonnaise quota would have been.
Sadly, yeah. Well, Lila, I happen to be a lover of mayonnaise, so it does pain me whenever I hear a young person speaking ill of it.
But I do admire any young person like you who is as pedantic as Kenji and me.
And you seem like you have a very bright future ahead of you.
So I appreciate you calling in and sharing your wisdom on this issue.
Thank you so much, Dan.
I was glad I was able to contribute my thoughts.
Kenji Lopez -Alt, author of The Food Lab.
Thanks so much. Thank you so much, Dan.
the sporkful is produced by me along with senior producer emma morgan stern and producer andre sohero additional production by julia shu our editor is tracy samuelson our engineer is jared o 'connell music help from black label music the sporkful is a production of stitcher our executive producers are chris bannon and daisy rosario until next time i'm dan pashman and i'm lindsey from El Paso, Texas, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.
Gianna Palmer. The team that produces the Sporkful today includes me, along with managing producer Emma Morgenstern.
And senior producer Andres O 'Hara.
Our engineer is Jared O 'Connell.
The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher Studios.
Our executive producer is Camille Stanley.
And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app?
Yes, the SiriusXM app.
It has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad -free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage.
Does your podcasting app have that?
And there's interviews with A -list stars and so much more.
It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one.
And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to to SiriusXM .com slash sporkful.
Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.
This is Comedy Bang Bang, the podcast, the promo, and in 30 seconds, I'm going to tell you why you should check out the show.
I, the host, Scott Aukerman, have a lighthearted conversation with famous celebrities like Jon Hamm, Alison Williams, Phoebe Bridgers, Jason Alexander, Natasha Lyonne, Bob Odenkirk, just to name a few.
Things go a little off the rails when different eccentric characters and oddballs drop by to be interviewed as well.
Each week is a blend of conversations and character work from your favorite comedians as well as some new hilarious voices.
Comedy Bang Bang the podcast. Listen every Monday wherever you get your podcasts.
Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach?
Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families.
With Greenlight, you can set up chores, automate allowance, and keep an eye on your kids' spending with real -time notifications.
Kids learn to earn, save, and spend wisely, and parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place.
Sign up for Greenlight today at greenlight .com slash podcast.
