Discussion keeps the world turning.
This is Round Table.
Healthy moms, thriving babies, that's the goal.
But what does it take to get there?
Today we talk care, courage and the support every family deserves.
And China's journey offers valuable lessons worth exploring.
Coming to you live from Beijing, this is Round Table.
I'm He Yeung. For today's program, I'm joined by Steve Hatherly and Fei Fei in the studio.
First, on Today's Show.
A healthy beginning can shape a lifetime.
As the world marks World Health Day on April 7, and with a call to improve care for mothers and newborns, China's numbers offer hope and proof.
From record -low mortality rates to new jobs supporting infants at home, the country's efforts are adding up.
Today, we explore how these changes are playing out in hospitals, communities, and homes across China, and what are the things that still needs to be done to give every baby and every mother a stronger start.
So what do the numbers say about mother and baby health in China?
Well, according to a report by the National Bureau of Statistics earlier this year, the health level of children has significantly improved in 2023.
And by the end of that year, 2023, there were over 3 ,000 maternal and child health care institutions with close to 600 ,000 personnel, as well as 160 children's hospitals and also more than 200 ,000 pediatric practising physicians in China.
and that makes the national newborn mortality rate, infant mortality rate and children mortality rate under the age of five dropped significantly in the year of 2023.
And that also means that the health of mother is also improving.
And I myself actually had the experience in 2023, yeah, in the year of 2023 as well as a mom of a second child and I have a like a 10 year gap between my first, between my first child and the second child and can definitely feel the changes and happening in the maternal and also newborn sector.
Oh so your experience with your first child was vastly different than your experience having your second child.
I wouldn't say vastly different but there are definitely a lot of differences that we can talk about.
For example first of all, the number of checkups that I need to go through are quite not only different, but also the number has increased.
One of the reasons, of course, is because I aged over the past 10 years.
And that means that the problems I would face as a pregnant woman will be different from a 20 -year -old.
But then I also go through a number of checkups.
for example, checking diabetes, checking high blood pressures to make sure that I won't face certain problems during when I give birth to a baby.
So preventative checks.
Sort of. And also there are different clinics, for example, clinics for your mental health, clinics for nutrition, if you have questions, and you can also ask the doctors what exercises I can do as a pregnant person and what is the safe exercises and what options do I have?
And I also need to document every meal that I consume throughout the week and report to that doctor if I want to go to the nutrition clinic, which were not that popular and often to seen when I was giving birth to first child.
That's a bit of pressure there, isn't it?
You want to have the unhealthy snacks maybe?
But you know, you have to write it down report it to somebody.
So did you go to a public hospital, or was this a - Yes, a public hospital.
Wow, that's really promising news that even in the...because usually it's assumed that the private sector provides better or more to the need kind of healthcare.
But even in the public hospitals, Mothers to Beak are subject to such intensive and And care, level of care.
Yes, most of the such services are not covered by medical insurance.
So you need to pay some extra money if you want to enjoy those services.
But the options are there, if you want to.
And another thing you mentioned is something that I find to be just worth a little bit of time of highlighting.
You mentioned that there's even the mental health care aspect in pregnancy or after pregnancy perhaps.
I remember a couple of years ago, a few years ago, we talked on this show about postpartum depression.
And that was mainly a new thing or at least because previously was very much taboo and then people wouldn't talk about it and it was difficult to seek help.
And it was assumed that if you're a new mom, then you would be so happy in tears that you have this baby, would actually in reality, it could be just far more complicated than that.
And it was a watershed moment that some moms came out saying that actually, this is not bringing me that overwhelming sense of joy.
And they'd have to get over extreme sense of shame to speak out about that and to seek help.
And actually once they did, it opened up a conversation flood gates and it's just so promising to see that now there is particular help to address these challenges.
I was on the Psychology Today website looking for information on that topic exactly.
And what they said was that postpartum depression, which is a form of clinical depression that affects about 10 % to 20 % of women after childbirth, yet research on preventive approaches for expectant mothers' mental health is really lacking.
They did a study in 2014 from John Hopkins, sorry, 2024, from John Hopkins University.
And they found that anxiety -focused therapy is an effective method to reduce the likelihood of mothers developing anxiety disorders and postpartum depression.
So a couple of points there.
Number one, not enough research on the topic yet being done.
It sounds like more is being done as we speak.
But of course it is a real thing.
and taking steps or taking measures to maybe combat that before it happens can be a very effective approach. Yeah, and I think in China's case, especially in Beijing, I think, they have this procedure that you need to fill in some kind of questionnaire when you sort of registered at the hospital as a pregnant person.
That questionnaire sort of evaluates if your mental health levels is healthy or not.
And then they have this WeChat public account that if you do want help, you can seek help there.
I think they also have problems in terms of how to combat postpartum depression issues.
But I think one of their methods is to sort of keeping track of every changes that you are going through and making sure that these changes are documented.
and when you definitely are actually facing those problems, and for example, you need help, and the sort of, the help person, the psychiatrist have these documents ready to be able to figure out what to do.
Yeah, I was making a joke before, wasn't I?
when I said, oh you want the unhealthy snack but you should write it down what you do eat.
That's a good point, isn't it?
Is that for self -reporting things you do want to be as honest and as accurate as possible because with that in mind this can really help the doctors assess a situation if a situation arises, right.
If they can track your diet all the way through, if they've seen there's any changes there, track activity changes something like that.
So self -reporting is really important.
Yeah and also what you mentioned there might have something to do with now it's a prevailing accepted notion that when a mom when a woman gets pregnant she should try to rein in the amount of weight she's gaining while she has a life growing inside of her but also like just in decades ago I wouldn't think this would be much on people's minds.
It was just pretty common for a woman to gain like 20 kg or 30 kg in some scenarios.
And now I think perhaps a more healthier and scientific look on this is basically, you know, try to curtail the amount of weight one is gaining because it's simply not healthy.
And it's better for this lady to sort of overcome the challenges of her body once she's unloaded the baby, if I'm not sure if I'm using the right word here.
Fei -Fei talked about a little bit about preventive measures.
But this is good news as well.
This is from a 2023 statistical bulletin from the National Health Committee.
they published it in August of 2024 that talked about the post -delivery visit rate for postpartum women.
It rose to 97 % in 2023, and the hospital delivery rate was 99 .95%.
In cities it was a little higher, in counties a little bit lower, in 2023.
But that's an important statistic to note as well, isn't it?
The post -delivery visit rate.
So the post -delivery visit rate would mean after the baby's born, then the medical checkups continue, right?
Yes, yes, especially when I was pregnant, I need to register with my community health institutions.
I think it's not really a hospital, but it's a place where you can get your vaccines and maybe some basic medicines, and there will be professionals checking on me every month to see have you been doing your medical checkups every month.
How's your medical report been?
And where are you going to spend your postpartum period, you know, the month after giving birth.
And they will also paying visit to my home once the baby was born, and to check on the babies and also check on me.
And then they will sort of notify you that you need to take your you need to take your babies for vaccines and also monthly medical checkups as well.
And at certain aid, what you need to do at what stage and they sort of give you a little pamphlet to sort of.
Like a how to. Yeah, yeah.
Like a guide. Yes and do you have any problems in terms of breastfeeding and what questions do you have?
What problems are your babies going through?
In terms of diet, in terms of their sleep.
So every, very detailed visits I would say.
That's great. And I'm also really glad to hear that this very attentive and layered check and care that's given is from a care center as opposed to the regular big hospitals, which are usually super crowded if you have been to these tertiary hospitals in big cities in China.
And usually they have just way too, some could argue, many too much on their plate.
And then in China, we've been talking about, for at least two or three decades about some of the less urgent care and medical, well, medical care should be given or devolved to the regional or neighborhood clinics and care centers so that, well, for the patient or the mom in this scenario can receive the necessary care, but not really the hands -on, you know, immediate medical attention, but it's very important for her and her family and her baby, obviously, and to get it where it happens the best, and that is near her home instead of the busy, bustling, big, general hospitals.
Were you satisfied with the level of care post -delivery that you received in 2023, if I may ask?
Yeah, yeah. I was satisfied.
I think I can get a little less of the business.
Oh, really? I mean, I guess that's a good problem to have, though, isn't it?
Too many people caring too much about you.
to answer the questions of my parents, the parents of my husbands, and the questions of the professional medical staff, and also need to answer the questions of, I registered at a postpartum care centers, and also I need to answer their questions.
So I have to offer four, five different sets of same answers to the four, five different sets of people.
So we've talked about the busy days.
Yeah, the busy days and all the service that's being provided and somebody's got to provide the service and also where does the funding come from, right?
So yeah, let's talk about some of the efforts that go into making all of this happen.
Yeah, lots of subsidies.
This is from a Jinhua report from March of 2025 and it referenced the term or the terms provide child care subsidies.
It was included for the first time.
And that's why this is important for the first time in the annual government work report.
And on top of that, there was a recently unveiled plan to increase consumption that proposed establishing a childcare subsidy system, expanding childbirth insurance coverage, also enhancing pediatric services.
An example would be earlier data from China's national health authorities that showed that or 20 provincial -level regions had explored offering childcare subsidies at different levels with more comprehensive versions being introduced recently as well.
So there's support there, from the government, isn't there?
Yeah. And there are different like subsidies offering at different levels.
For example, on the national level, they have subsidies and also have tax reductions for families that are taking care of babies under the age of three.
And there are also, of course, free vaccinations, and also medical checkups.
Then on a provincial and regional level, for example, I think just very recently in Hohhot, the capital of China's Inner Mongolia autonomous region, they are offering couples having their first child, with one -time payment of 10 ,000 yuan.
For a second child, that's 150 ,000 yuan will be distributed and in the annual instalments of 10 ,000 yuan, which I guess will be given out over the period of five years.
For all subsequent children, the same annual subsidy will be offered until the child turns the age of 10, totalling 100 ,000 yuan.
There are also other subsidies, for example, in North China's Shanxi province.
several counties introduced policies aimed at such elevating family burdens by providing one -time childbirth subsidies, and also partially covering hospitalization costs for childbirth.
For example, in the county of Xinjiang, they are sort of giving for families giving birth to their first second or third child on or after January the 1st 2025 are eligible for one -time subsidies of 2 ,000 yen, which is about a little over 200 US dollars.
5 ,000 yen or 8 ,000 yen respectively.
In Singapore, they call this the baby bonus benefit.
Yeah, they do this in other countries, too.
In Singapore under the baby bonus scheme you can receive eleven thousand dollars in cash for your first and second child and 13 ,000 for your third and subsequent child, and that's from the Singapore government website on the topic.
Sweden, they have their own measures as well.
Yeah, this is something that countries around the world do to try to encourage people to have children.
Yes. But for me, I think the most encouraging policies I will say the one -time childbirth payment isn't really that intriguing because no matter what amount the government is offering, that's really pin as compared to the money you need to spend on raising one, two, three children.
But I think, for example, the extension of paternal leave is one thing that people are talking about these days.
For example, here in China, maternity leave is about over 120 days, so four or five months.
but the fathers only have like 15 days of paternal leave, and a lot of, I think, lawmakers and also professionals are sort of suggesting we need to extend those leaves a little longer.
I think in the city of Chongqing, they're extending to 20 days, which, in my opinion, is still not enough.
We definitely need longer paternal leaves to make people realize, you know, childbirth is not just the job of mothers, but also fathers.
I said in Sweden they take measures as well.
That's exactly what they do.
In Sweden, it's quite long.
You get 16 months. Parental leave is 16 months, and the first 13 months is paid at 80%.
Then government provided daycare starts at one year old, and you're guaranteed a spot.
So it's not like you have to win a lottery spot, it's guaranteed.
And the most it will is $163 a month.
So that's quite affordable.
Both parents get 240 days and a big chunk of those days are non -transferable.
That means use it or lose it.
And in Sweden they call it the daddy quota.
It's been pretty effective in that country they say.
That's so interesting.
And I don't know how maybe Red Note, the app has been listening to our conversations in the office or reading my mind.
I saw last night on RedNote, this influencer sharing.
She lives in Sweden and she photographed this party in a cafe of six dads, each bringing a baby and having, what do you call that?
A paternal party? And so it's so common in that country to see dads taking care of babies and even just having a date with other dads and their kids.
So, so fascinating.
I think the culture, our culture is changing, but it's certainly not there yet.
I like that use it or lose it, non -transferable aspect of their policy too, because if that weren't in place, then it might be common for a dad to say, oh I'm gonna transfer my days you know to my wife, right?
And I won't use those.
But no, Sweden makes the dads use the time and it's beneficial for everyone, isn't it?
And another interesting point from that story, that was from NPR by the way that I'm talking about this, another interesting point that they made was that because the fathers are almost forced to take the time, they can't transfer it.
it reduces the intangible penalty that a mom might experience in the workplace because women take the time but men don't, right?
That's avoided. Because fathers and moms take the time together.
So there's none of that kind of office punishment, if you will, that moms might receive.
And I'm just gonna play devil's advocate and put on my cap of business owner or a cold -hearted ruthless capitalist that is if you're all taking your maternal and paternal leaves, then who's gonna contribute to productivity?
How is my company gonna stay afloat when I need to pay for, well, to a certain extent, you guys all taking leaves to create new life for this economy in this country?
Well, I think of course governments need to take - I'll let you handle that one.
Yeah, governments need to take part of the responsibility as well.
I mean, in my opinion, baby is not just for the family themselves.
It's also for the host societies, because it's basically the filter of our society.
And what the society's filter holds really depends on them.
And so, I think the governments definitely need to take some of the responsibilities.
but then I think the overall mindset when it comes to viewing parent or niece, also need to change.
Like for example, people would think mothers, especially new moms, they can't devote to work because they need to divert some of their focuses onto these babies.
And of course that means they aren't 100 % focused in their workplace.
But in my experience, of course, especially during the first three years.
I need to divert a lot of my attention to the babies.
But then, some other qualities are also sort of developed as I was taking care of the baby.
I think new moms have the quality of being very patient.
You need to be very patient when you are raising one or two or even three children.
And you also need the quality of multitasking because you need to arrange in your work, your daily life, and also different schedules of the babies as well.
If you have more than one, that means juggling between two babies or even three children.
And multitasking is something, I think, valued right now in workplace.
And then there are also attentions of, you know, listening.
I think moms also tend to be easier to listening and more easy to sympathize with struggles and problems that others are going through.
So I think these qualities should be valued in workplace.
Actually, workplace are calling for these qualities in their workers as well.
And when moms have those, it seems like they're only focusing on they're not 100 percent devoted to work, but not focusing on these qualities developed as they are taking care of the babies.
Also, for moms, you know, you mentioned it's just that couple of years or three years maybe she really does need to take a look after the baby, but the baby grows up and there will be other issues, but, but also, I think it's just we need to sort of refresh and kick aside a lot of these stereotypes and really face the fact and the truth of the life of a mom and also if you if a society wants more people to have babies then you gotta be more accommodating to these facts otherwise there's just not much hope for those who look at this and feel, well, if that's just gonna be severe penalty on my career,
on my life or whatnot, then you know, a lot of these things really need to change for the better or to change.
And it's almost like a multilayered approach is necessary because you need policies in place to encourage people to have children, but then you need things in place to assist during the pregnancy for moms and dads, and that includes workplace policies and things like that, but also the infrastructure's important as well.
Look at Beijing as an example.
Beijing has 11 municipal and 34 district -level critical care centers for pregnant and postpartum women, seven municipal, 27 district -level critical care centers for newborns, and 17 designated hospitals at the municipal level on pregnancy complications, heart disease, brain disease, infectious diseases, things like this.
having those places in place as well, all of that.
And that's what I meant when I said a multilayered approach. This is not just a, let's put out one policy and see what happens, no there's a lot that needs to take place, there's a lot of money that needs to be invested, it takes a lot of people as well to accomplish a goal such as that.
Yes and that very much comes from the public sector and it's really interesting that when you look at the private sector when there is a demand, there is a business opportunity.
And then in the last decade or so we've seen there's been fast growth in let's say maternal and baby care apps.
Also the mom and baby market has been growing as well.
Although in the last couple of years maybe we've seen it plateau a little bit But it's certainly a place where you can see some of the preferences of moms and their families and what they're spending on when it comes to ready to have a child or already have had a child.
This is from CBC. Last year in Toronto's St. George Hotel.
So this is inside a hotel.
The first post -natal retreat, they called it Canada's first postnatal retreat opened.
And I thought that was really interesting because here in Asia postnatal retreats are common. I think they were anyway in China, I'm not sure anymore.
In South Korea, it's quite a common thing to do.
And the one that opened in Toronto again, they said it was the first in Canada of its kind.
Since that, there's been other centers popping up in New York City and San Francisco, and the model in Toronto was inspired by the Chinese tradition of quote sitting the month yes so that's what inspired the Toronto Center to open and that's where new moms can spend up to 30 days recovering postpartum while a family member or a nanny helps care for for them and for the baby that Center in Toronto by the way not cheap at all it costs between eight hundred and fifty and $1 ,300 a night, depending on the size of the room and how long you stay there.
And then there's home care packages from the company that start at $2 ,000 -plus for 50 hours of help.
But something that's existed here in Asia for quite a while, I think, is relatively new to the North American post -natal care market.
And I wonder if it's the local moms that are taking up this opportunity, or as the Chinese -Americans, for example, or like the immigrants who can't afford this.
But I think online among influencers, especially those are marrying two Asian family, these sitting the month customer definitely getting attractions.
I see them, I saw them talking about those on YouTube and TikTok and so on and so forth.
And I do think that during the month, which could be 28 days or 42 days, depending your choice, is the most enjoyable month of my life.
Oh, really? Yeah, because there will be nurses and nuns taking care of the baby.
So I can be myself for a couple of hours, and then they deliver six meals to your room every day, including desserts, foods, and also proper breakfast, dinner, and lunch meals.
And then I can also enjoy a lot of like spas, massages, and also different TCM treatments.
So I don't need to leave that retreat building.
Some of them are collabing with a hotel, like what Steve just mentioned.
And then there are also like, you can do yoga lessons.
Wow. So there are a lot of really relaxed month that I don't need to think about other things.
and I don't need to worry about the babies as well because I know the health is there.
Do you need to have a baby to go there?
It sounds amazing. I'd like to check in there for 30 days or so.
You know, doctors in some doctors in Canada talked about this because of the high price tag.
They said that that business model kind of highlights the need for better and more accessible postpartum care without having that luxury price tag that comes along with it.
But yeah I wonder if that has anything to do with perhaps a difference in culture understanding of that critical month considered to be crucial for recovery in our Chinese culture.
But you must have heard of this from elsewhere that let's say an American mom just goes back to work like the day after giving birth or the week after giving birth.
Or oh another thing I heard which kind of blew my mind I was like whoa culture shock was when my friend who's Chinese but she's she's given birth in the U .S., married to a local over there, and she was given popsicles right after birth.
It's like a taboo in China.
Yeah like you can't eat anything icy in our postpartum care culture.
You're not supposed to like even let cold breeze caress your face, you anything that's associated coldness you can't be exposed to.
Yeah, I think I remember my sister chewing on ice cubes or something that they had given her.
But that's just my memory.
And I could be wrong about that.
Yeah, like no icy stuff, no spicy food, no well, anything that is considered to be, well, enjoyable and happy is kind of taboo during that month.
Oh, well, I would like to cancel my reservation in a postnatal care center, please.
Yeah, so the meals are very healthy and don't really have a lot of flavors in them, but that's supposed to be good for your health.
Yeah, I suppose so.
