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Love now and always.
Love was stronger than anything.
And I love you more than anything.
Just love. From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.
This is Modern Love.
Every week we bring you stories and conversations inspired by the Modern Love column.
We talk about lovers, families, friendships, and all the messiness of human relationships.
Today I'm talking to a Modern Love essayist named Laura Cathcart -Robbins about what happened when she did two difficult things at the same time.
The first one was to ask her husband for a divorce.
This was about 16 years ago, and from the outside, the life Laura had with her husband seemed like a dream.
He was a big time movie and TV director, and that came with a fancy Hollywood lifestyle.
But just to get through the day in that world, Laura felt like she had to pretend she was someone else.
I think the anxiety around my marriage was that I might not be the right person to be in it, you know?
And every single, you know, day that went by, I discovered more things that, about myself, that didn't align with where I was.
Laura was acting like she loved doing things she really hated.
Hosting parties, decorating the house, showing up to the school pick -up line with exactly the right car and the right outfit.
There was a way to be in that world, you know?
There was a sameness to the people in the world, and a lot of the people in that world, most of them, 95 % of them, were white.
So I was already the black one.
Laura couldn't take it any longer, so she told her husband she wanted out.
Okay, so that was the first hard thing Laura did.
But like I said, there was a second thing, and that was Laura facing the fact that she had a serious Ambien addiction, and that she needed help.
She'd first tried the drug when her two sons were babies, and she was having trouble sleeping.
Right away, it had a powerful effect.
For me, Ambien did something that I don't think it does to everybody.
I describe it as just this complete euphoria.
Floaty, warm, delicious.
Back then, she took just one pill every once in a while, but by the time the kids were in elementary school, it was up to five, sometimes 10 pills per night.
And she started chasing them with alcohol because they were losing their effect.
Now, Laura was struggling to be present for her kids, and she worried that her husband would try to take them from her and the divorce.
The most important thing to me at that point in my life were my children.
I wanted to keep and maintain that connection with them, and it was becoming more and more obvious that if I did not seek some help, I would not be able to keep that connection because I would be found out.
I would be seen as an unfit mother, and it would jeopardize my custody of my children.
So Laura decided to check herself into a 30 -day rehab, and on the way there, with her divorce process underway, Laura felt completely broken, like every part of her life had fallen apart.
But she was about to meet someone who would make things better and also way more complicated.
Lora Cathcart -Robbins, welcome to Modern Love.
Thank you, thank you so much, Anna.
So, Laura, you decide to go to a 30 -day residential rehab program in Arizona, and after you tell your soon -to -be ex -husband that you're going, he's surprisingly supportive.
He flies with you, he drops you off there.
Bring us into that moment, that first moment when you walk into the facility.
I'm in the middle of nowhere in Arizona, and so the sitting there in that lobby made it very real.
Checking in made it very real.
I would not be able to leave once I had been dropped off, and it was July.
It was 115 degrees, I'll never forget that.
It was like living in the business end of a blow -dryer.
It was like, I couldn't breathe in a whole breath.
I had just never been in that solid dry heat before.
I was taken by a woman, I think, to what looked like it was probably like a chapel or some kind of rec room, and I opened the door and it's orientation.
This is where the orientation is happening, and I looked around a little bit, but mainly kept my head down, and I heard them all introducing themselves.
I didn't really look up until one of them said that he was there because he had four DUIs, and I was like, four DUIs?
Holy shit. So I looked up and looked at him, and there was a young girl who said that it was her 15th time in rehab.
I was just like, this is absolutely a mistake.
I don't belong here.
These are people with real problems.
I'm taking a seat from somebody who really needs it.
As the guy was orienting us and telling us where we would go for this and where we would go for that, and this is what time dinner is, and this is what time breakfast is, I started to feel like I was going to throw up, but it wasn't actual liquid.
It was like my body was pushing something out of me that I couldn't identify.
It was a feeling I don't ever remember having before, and I covered my mouth against it.
What do you think that feeling was, that thing inside you that was threatening to come out?
I don't think it was anxiety.
My addict brain was kicking and screaming, understanding that what we were there to do was remove me from the substance, or remove the substance from me, however you want to look at it.
It also could have been despair, a reckoning with what my situation actually was, because I can't go anywhere.
I've never been in that state of despair before.
Then I was just like, I've got to get out of here, so I bolted.
I remember slamming that door open and how bright it was outside, and just running.
Where were you trying to go?
At that moment, I was hoping to get to the office to get my husband before the plane took off.
I was like, if I can get there and get him to turn around and come get me before he takes off, I can go home with him.
I didn't know where the office was, but that's where I was going.
I mentioned the 4DUIs guy.
Apparently, I left my jacket in there, and I heard footsteps coming after me.
He caught up to me and he's just talking to me.
Why are you laughing?
Because he was so annoying.
I was like, who are you and why are you talking to me?
He was talking about how he got there, and that he was there for booze.
He had two young daughters that he was trying to get wealth.
I didn't care about any of that.
You were like, give me my jacket, I'm leaving.
I found the office.
He walked with me all the way there.
I was talked into staying a few more days by the director of the facility.
The 4DUIs guy, he's waiting there in the lobby of the office, just calmly reading a pamphlet on opiate addiction and waiting for me.
I took my jacket and left and he walked with me and he's like, yeah, so you're staying.
I was like for a minute for a couple days and he's like, yeah, I hear they have a pretty good chef here.
I laughed. It was a funny thing to say to someone who, I mean, I was sobbing.
I was not at all together.
The breakfast buffet sounds pretty good.
Right, right. So that was my introduction to Scott, who I later find out is Scott S .412, we're each given patient numbers.
Mine was 411 and his was 412, which means we checked in right after either.
I was going to say, consecutive, give me more of a picture of Scott S .412.
He's just a little bit taller than me, blonde hair, blue eyes.
He was very tan, which is interesting for an alcoholic.
Usually they're not.
I'll just say I was not at all attracted to him.
He was wearing this terrible Hawaiian shirt.
It was big and boxy and I was just like really struck by how ugly it was, but he's kind looking, Scott.
His eyes are very kind.
He has this ease about him, this casual vibe, which like I said, I found to be really annoying then, but it was somehow later on a source of calm for me, his demeanor.
We'll be back in just a moment.
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Can you tell me how this deeply annoying guy with the horrible shirt endeared himself to you?
It sounds like you were a little bit like, get away.
Yeah. I will just mention that at this particular facility, men and women weren't allowed to interact.
Why do they have that rule?
Do you know? Well, it's been said that addiction is kind of like whack -a -mole.
Maybe you address a physical addiction to a substance in treatment, right?
But it's going to pop up in other areas.
And one of the most accessible areas is sex and love, you know?
Sex and love are drugs, and they don't even give us caffeine in rehab.
Like, you're not supposed to have any drugs, no sugar.
You're supposed to be abstinent.
So we sat separately for breakfast.
We sat separately for groups.
The only time we were allowed to sit together was when we went to our respective 12 -step meetings.
So, you know, as we were sitting at our separate tables, he's staring at me the entire time.
Breakfast, lunch, dinner.
You look up and he stares.
There he is staring at me, which was also annoying at first.
What kind of stare was it?
There were so many different flavors of stare.
It was like an adoring stare.
Like a gaze of adoration, just pure adoration.
Just like he couldn't keep his eyes off me.
Like puppy dog eyes.
Yes, yes. And so I, you know, would turn my back or turn slightly to the side and ignore him.
But probably like three or four days in, I start looking for him.
And my eyes are kind of wildly going through the cafeteria until they land on him.
And he's staring at me, of course, wherever he is.
But I start really counting on those like, you know, just kind of eye flirting encounters.
Why do you think something flipped there?
What was it that eye contact, that moment of connection, was giving you?
Well, I think the thing was probably the thing that they want you to avoid, which was I needed something to feel better.
It is like I said, you know, love is a drug.
Sex is a drug. And they both give you dopamine hits that aren't quite the same as myambian, but they hit the same trigger, you know?
These looks from him, these flirtations that we shared, made me feel good at a time where I've never felt worse.
Is there one more sort of specific example that you remember where he did something and you liked it?
Yeah. So I mentioned that we could go to the 12 -step meetings and sit together.
And I walked in a little bit late to this meeting, and there was an empty seat next to him.
And I saw one of the other girls going to sit there, and he put his hand over the seat and then nodded toward me.
Like this is for her.
Wait, OK, can I just say it's so sweet because it is quite elementary school in a lot of ways.
You know, you have like a playground crush and it's like not you, her.
Totally. Then our arms touched slightly because we shared an armrest, and that felt like like fire or electricity running up and down my arm.
There was this connection that he and I shared from like kind of that moment forward that felt very exclusive, you know, just he and I.
When did this connection turn physical?
Well, he kissed me.
I think we were like four or five days in.
Well, yeah, he wanted to show me something which was this cow pasture.
All the cows move. It's a classic guideline.
Let me show you this cow pasture.
All the cows move at sundown together.
It's this really I had never seen anything like it.
And so we're kind of leaning over the railing, observing the cows, like clapping my hands when they finish their song.
And when I do that, I turn around and he's in my face and he comes in for a very chaste kiss, you know, just a smack.
And you could have knocked me over with the feather.
I was not expecting it.
But what did it feel?
You said you were totally surprised.
But what did the kiss feel like?
Did it feel good? I don't know.
I mean, I love that.
I'm sure it probably would have if I had been in another state of mind.
But, but Anna, you have to just imagine how shut down I was.
Right. You know, I would have these moments with Scott, but almost the rest of the time I would be sobbing.
I sobbed in group. I sobbed in meetings.
I sobbed in therapy.
I was crying at night.
I mean, I just cried or I was completely shut down.
And it was all because I couldn't be with my kids.
Like everything, everything all day was to that phone call where I could call them and say good night to them.
But then you actually got to see your kids at one point when your husband at the time brought them to visit.
Can you tell me what happened then?
When my kids came to visit, I was about halfway through my time.
There's about 15 days in and we had this this kind of half day together.
My kids and I, they looked gigantic to me.
I couldn't believe, like, how big they looked, you know, just 15 days later.
And, you know, as we were nearing the end of this visit, my heart started to pound because I realized I was going to have to say goodbye to them.
And I didn't know if I could survive that.
I feel like I have an out of body experience at this point.
I'm observing myself holding their hands, kissing them goodbye, telling them that I'm going to see them soon.
They collapse, you know, crying, no, mommy, no, we don't want to leave you.
Come with us. And I have to keep it.
That is so hard to hear.
Oh, my gosh. And so I'm trying to keep a smile on my face and be like, it's going to fly by and I'll be back soon.
Why do you have to stay?
I have no explanation for them.
And and then, you know, they get in the car with my ex and they leave.
And that's when I collapsed and I I kind of like crawled my way over to these benches and I was just sobbing, sobbing, sobbing.
I couldn't I couldn't catch my breath.
I thought I might suffocate because my tears were streaming into my mouth and nose and I couldn't catch a breath.
And and then there's Scott.
And so I'm as far as for one to one to.
Yes. I just have to preface it by saying that Scott was looking at going to prison if he didn't complete his time in rehab.
And he did have two young daughters.
So it was really essential that he not get written up, that he get a good report.
And he I'm on the women's side of the facility where he's not allowed, never allowed.
And, you know, like, you know, when you watch cop shows, how people like run with the guns below the car line so they can't be seen.
And that's what he's doing.
He's running from like tree to tree ducking.
Oh, my God. And he gets next to me and we're sitting on the ground next to this bench and I'm like, what are you doing here?
And he said, I knew you'd be sad.
And I just grabbed that awful Hawaiian shirt and buried my head in it.
He just let me cry.
I don't know for how long.
But it was it felt like a long time.
And my grief felt less heavy.
I felt better, but not like yay.
But it was just eased enough.
That I felt like I could, you know, maybe go to dinner that night in the cafeteria, maybe get through another night there.
And I mean, I absolutely credit him for saving my life multiple times there.
I don't know if I would have stayed if he hadn't been there waiting for me.
Well, he did not get caught.
He did not. No. Look at him.
The Hawaiian shirt is camouflage, interestingly, even though it is so loud.
Yes, you end up kind of against all odds and certainly unexpectedly to yourself, you end up making it through the full 30 days of rehab.
And it's time for you and Scott to go your separate ways.
He's going back to Utah.
You're going back to L .A.
and you get to share a taxi to the airport.
Can you tell me the story of that ride?
Yeah, well, I had called in a refill for myself of Ambien that I was planning to pick up at the one CVS in Wickenburg, Arizona.
You were about to leave this facility where you had detoxed painfully for 30 days.
You wanted more Ambien.
I wanted more Ambien.
I'm an addict. So 30 days away from my drug certainly helped me get some distance from it, but it didn't stop that euphoric recall.
I was telling myself the same lies that I always told myself, which was I'll just have one and then I'll save the rest for the next time I really can't sleep or really need it.
I will not take them all at once.
I will not take two.
I will not, you know, I'll be different this time.
I'll be different this time.
Yeah, I still wanted that feeling.
And I was honestly really scared that I wouldn't know how to be at home without it.
But I realize as we're driving to the airport that I don't know how I'm going to pick up these pills with Scott in the car.
I hadn't thought about that part because you don't want him to see you.
No, no, I don't want him to know about it.
And so there's one road that takes you from the facility to the highway that you need to take to the airport.
And the CVS is on that road.
And as we're approaching it, I'm just like, you know, trying to strategize as quickly as I can.
How can I leave Scott in the car?
We haven't seen a drugstore, you know, and over a month, he's going to want to go in.
He's going to be like shaving cream, you know, like gum that we haven't been able to buy.
And I can't think of an excuse fast enough.
So we pass it. What does that feel like?
Oh, I couldn't believe I was scolding myself.
You know, why didn't you say anything?
Why tell him to turn around and Scott, you know, he's just chatting with the driver and like the dark night, the Heath Ledger, you know, Batman had just come out and he's like, we might have time to see that before our planes, you know, because there's a mall with the moon.
And I want to stab him in the face.
Like I just I'm so anxious and upset that I've left this refill behind.
But I didn't get it because he was there with me, which is another way I credit him for saving my life.
And we end up stopping at a Starbucks, which was the other thing that we have been craving.
And we got Starbucks and went to the airport and he flew home and I flew home.
What was it like to be on your own again without Scott as it was terrifying.
It was terrifying to say goodbye to him.
It wasn't just him.
I was saying goodbye to it.
Been this cuckoo night been in for the last 30 days.
And I felt at that time that the way that I got through those 30 days was because of him.
And if I didn't have him with me, I didn't know how I was going to get through the next 30 days.
Did you imagine you had a future together?
No, I didn't see any path toward a future together at all.
We'll be right back.
So, Laura, after you've said goodbye to Scott, you land back in L .A., back home.
And it's around this time, too, that you and your husband have scheduled a mediation session when you're going to come together with your lawyers and decide the terms of your divorce.
That session is about three months away.
Can you tell me how you're feeling as this date approaches?
After I got back, it felt like I was going through life with no skin, honestly.
I felt absolutely vulnerable and not just the vulnerability, like it hurt.
I was in physical pain.
I was in mental anguish.
You know, I don't know if I even had a spiritual center at all at that point.
I couldn't access it if I did.
But everything felt raw and abrasive and wrong.
My home life with my, you know, my husband was tense.
We were separate in the house, but we were living together.
And I was walking on eggshells.
I was afraid to say or do anything wrong.
And we were going right back into finalizing this divorce.
So a lot of my time was spent with my attorney.
We had basically 90 days to prepare me for this mediation and make me look like the model mom.
And how were you supposed to prove you were a model mom?
Well, she really wanted me to, she said things like be the first one in the pickup line.
You know, when you get them from school, continue your PTA duties.
You know, make sure that you were seen.
If there is an after school game, if there is a tutoring, you're the one who's driving and dropping them off and picking them up.
You're the one that's arriving with snack.
She wanted me to act like there were cameras everywhere.
So everywhere that I went, I had to be the best Laura that I could present.
And she wanted me to drug test twice a week so that if my sobriety was ever called into question, we would have receipts saying that I was, I have been sober.
She wanted me to go to therapy.
Starting immediately, she wanted me to go to 12 step meetings and get a sponsor.
And like she had a laundry list of things that she wanted me to do.
And so I started down that list, you know, and the drug testing was humiliating.
I didn't realize that you actually had to go in front of someone.
They had to watch you pee, right?
They had to. Wow. Yeah.
Yeah. But to make sure that I keep my kids in my life, I will do it.
This is so intense.
Yeah. Yeah. It really is.
Where did Scott fit into all of this?
If he did, were you still in touch?
Yes. So you were smiling a lot.
We had a nightly phone call.
Wow. Nightly. Yeah.
Him just checking in with me to see how horrible it was, basically.
Like, is it as horrible as you had imagined?
And, you know, really impressed that I got myself to a meeting without Ambien or him.
When you talked with Scott, could you tell how he was doing?
How were things going for him?
So he was returning home to a home that he lived in by himself.
There were empty bottles everywhere.
Just as he left it.
All the mail, mostly bills, were piled up on his kitchen counter, unopened.
He told you this. Yes.
He told me this. And he spent a couple of days, you know, hauling trash bags full of clinking bottles out to the trash cans and dumping them.
But he was unable to go to meetings where he was in Utah because he couldn't drive.
He doesn't have a driver's license anymore.
And, you know, I'm a block away from, you know, six meetings.
Any direction I go here in LA, he doesn't have that.
Were you worried he might relapse?
I was really worried that Scott would relapse.
And I felt it was inevitable that he would, if he didn't do something different.
And he was the one who was in despair at that point.
As my situation was improving, I felt like his was going the other direction.
How did that make you feel?
Did you feel responsible in some way?
Absolutely. He saved my life.
In treatment, I got to do what I can to save Scott S.
What did you decide to do?
I decided to book him a plane ticket to come to Los Angeles, to book him into a sober living that was fairly near my house and also connect him with a sponsor.
Laura, I really want to understand why you decided to do this.
I feel like it was a big risk for you, given everything that you were working on to get yourself better, to prove you were a fit mom.
But I had to, Anna.
I had to bring him out.
I didn't feel like I had a choice.
I could not leave him there.
He saved you, so you felt like it was your turn.
I did. So Scott gets on that plane, he makes it to LA, and now he's in your city.
Did you get to see a lot of each other?
We only saw each other at meetings.
We went to the same meetings, okay.
So we would meet at the meeting.
Sometimes I would pick him up, but usually we would meet at the meeting, and then we'd have a short chat afterward, and then we would talk on the phone at night.
When you had these very few in -person interactions, when you were sitting side by side at the meeting, can you describe what that was like to be close to him physically in this way that was at least outwardly sanctioned?
Yeah, it goes back to that elementary school metaphor that you brought up before, because it really was like that.
It was like I was sitting with my best friend on the playground, you know, like, elbowing each other as somebody said something funny or something we'd already discussed, like that kind of thing.
We had a lot of fun together.
So all this time, of course, this mediation session with your husband and the divorce lawyers is approaching, right?
You'd been so afraid of doing anything that he could use against you.
When you finally sat down at the mediation, did your soon -to -be ex -husband end up trying to take the kids away from you?
Not at all. I was pretty shocked.
He really wanted what I wanted, which was to get to our son's saxophone recital on time that day.
The same day as the divorce mediation?
The same day as the mediation.
Why do you think he didn't?
I think that we ended our marriage before the love was gone.
And I'm so grateful for that.
I still loved him and he still loved me.
I think we still love each other now, obviously, in a more quiet way.
But he didn't want to see me hurt.
He didn't want our kids to suffer.
You know, to go after me would have been to go after them as well.
And you know what I mean by that?
Like, if I hadn't been able to have access to them, if I couldn't be with them, it would have hurt them.
Totally. They would have been deprived of access to you.
Yeah. He didn't want any part of that.
So what was your relationship to your kids going to look like moving forward after that mediation?
I mean, the thing I've been so afraid of losing, I didn't lose.
I got to stay in the house.
I got, you know, all this time with my kids.
Really, my ex -husband made the concessions.
He moved out of the house, but he came back and forth so that we could stay there and maintain our family unit.
Wow. Every morning, we had breakfast together as a family.
We did birthdays together and holidays together and parent -cheater conferences together.
As things were starting to get stabilized with your almost ex -husband, what did that mean for Scott?
Like, did you want to jump right into a relationship with him at the same time?
Yes and no. You know, I felt like I've been waiting for a long time.
And in fact, it was just a matter of months.
But at the same time, you know, what we did was we created this batting order where our recovery had to come first.
We both understood that.
And then our families, our respective families, his kids, his ex -wife, my kids, my ex -husband had to come second.
And then everything else, including each other, came third.
If my kids needed me to do something and Scott needed a ride, you know, I had to take care of my kids.
Like, that made it very easy.
Not simple, but I didn't have to struggle.
It sounds like it's putting Scott beneath a lot of things, but in fact, you kind of have to, it sounds like.
I mean, I guess. I think we chose to because without sobriety, I don't have any of this.
How long has it been since you met Scott in rehab?
So, a 16 and a half years.
And you're still together.
We are. We are. I am, my office at home is downstairs and he's upstairs right now.
And in fact, he did a lot to help me set up for this interview.
We dated for six years before we moved in together.
So we really kept that batting order in that boundary.
I'm extremely close with my boys still.
Scott and I have like this sober home.
We have a meeting in our house every Saturday where people come and we chop it up about recovery.
And, yeah. You know, Lauren, a lot of ways, your story is like such an exception to the rule.
We talked about how like one of the number one things they tell you in rehab is like, do not replace whatever addiction we're trying to heal here with a love addiction.
Do not get into a relationship.
And I guess I wonder, like, y 'all did and it worked.
Why do you think it worked for you two?
Uh, we are exceptional.
I'm really aware of that.
And I know that there are some people who make it for a year or two, but I don't know very many who were together 16 plus years later.
And I think one of the reasons why we are where we are was one, we were ready.
We had been these other people in other relationships and been performative in different ways throughout our lives.
And we were just ready to stop doing that.
And, you know, I don't know if that's possible for everybody, but we made it possible for us.
And how are you different in your relationship with Scott than you were with your ex -husband?
I think the biggest difference in my relationship with Scott is that I don't ever feel like I'm playing a role in this relationship.
Here's the beauty of it.
When I met Scott, I was the absolute worst version of myself, the version I had hid from everybody else.
I was a wreck, I was ill, and I in no way was trying to impress him.
He became intrigued with that person.
He wanted to know more about me and the more he knew the more he liked.
Scottie didn't fall in love with my potential.
He's not banking on a better version of Laura down the line.
I go through the day, you know, as myself, whatever that looks like, and at the end of the day, I'm loved for it.
Laura Cathcart -Robbins, thank you so much for telling me your story.
I so appreciate it.
Oh, Anna, I can't tell you what this has meant to me and thank you so much for having me.
If you want to read Laura's Modern Love essay, which is called Marriage Made an Actor Out of Me, look for the link in our show notes.
There's also a link to Laura's memoir, Stash, My Life in Hiding.
Just a quick fact checking note, we reached out to Laura's ex -husband for comment on the story.
He didn't return our request.
Also, before we go, we're working on our end of the year goodbye 2024 episode, so we want to know what was the worst date you went on in 2024.
Can you tell us the story of what happened and why it was so awful?
Also, what do you want to do differently when it comes to love in the new year?
Please note, you do not have to be single to share your story.
If you're a partnered and you went on a really bad date this year, we want to hear from you too.
To send us your story and please listen carefully because these instructions have changed, record a voice memo and email it to us at modernlovepodcastatnytimes .com.
That's modernlovepodcastatnytimes .com.
Include your name and where you're from and you just might hear yourself on a future episode of the show.
Modern Love is produced by Riva Goldberg, Davis Land, Emily Lang and Amy Pearl.
It's edited by Lynn Levy and our executive producer, Jen Poitant.
Fact Checking by Mary Mathis.
Production Management by Christina Joseph.
The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell.
Original music by Pat McCusker and Dan Powell.
This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez with studio support from Maddie Maciello and Nick Pittman.
Special thanks to Mahima Choblani, Nell Gologli, Jeffrey Miranda and Paula Schuman.
The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones.
Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.
If you want to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got the instructions in our show notes.
I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.
