Hannah Diviney - Disabled in an Able-Bodied World｜The Imperfects

This episode of The Imperfects features a conversation that references suicidal ideation.

If this is too much for you right now then we suggest you skip this one and come back when you're ready.

My name is Emily and I'm a psychologist and regular guest on The Imperfects.

I was proudly born and raised on Wurundjeri country and now live, work and raise my own children on the lands of the Wajak Nungar people.

I'm inspired by the strength and endurance of the world's oldest living culture.

We at the Imperfects pay homage to traditions of story, and in particular its role in healing when we share and create space for stories on this podcast.

Together with the Imperfects I acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast was recorded, and extend my respects to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.

I acknowledge this land always was, and always will be, Aboriginal land.

I got in the car on the way home and said, mum, why don't my legs work?

And mum was like, well, you have this thing called cerebral palsy, and that means your legs don't work.

Why? Well, I don't know.

What do you mean you don't know?

Well, I don't know.

Well who knows. No one.

They don't know why.

What do you mean there's a question without an answer?

The Imperfect invites you..

...into a very safe place.

A place where we share with our judgement.

And drink heaps of vulnerability.

Grab yourself a cup.

This is the Vulnerability House.

Well, this is a very special episode and it's all about Hannah Deviney.

But before it's all about Hannah Deviney, I just have to point out the fact that it's Josh van Carlenburg's birthday.

And let's just pay a quick tribute to the birthday boy.

He's gonna sing happy birthday to you.

Well, you've already done it.

Happy birthday Josh.

Thank you very much.

Happy birthday Josh.

Thanks, Hannah. I feel bad.

I should have bought your present.

I feel bad for taking the limelight off you.

That's all right. You're the present, Hannah.

This conversation will be different.

You're the gift. Very smooth.

You may have been an incredible move by you, just to go, well, just in case it's his birthday, I better bring a present on.

Yeah. I should have asked.

Who is Hana Davenne?

Well, let me just say...

Who am I Hugh, please tell me cause I don't know.

Let me start by saying, warning, warning, warning, we have a future potential Australian of the year.

You know this. Aw, thank you.

Just let me start by saying that.

I had the great joy of reading a book and I was shocked I weren't already in the strain of the year, but so that's my warning to everyone just in case they stay there to know the future.

Great call. And diviny is right, isn't it?

It is diviny. Diviny.

It's all right. It's all right.

You must get some crazy variations about it.

We get like divining a lot of the time, because the best way we tell people to spell it is divine and then put a while on the end.

Then people just go divining.

Sometimes you get divinity.

sometimes, you get duvene that's...

that was a fun one.

Duvenator? Yeah it's like..

Duvenator? Duvenee.

Duvenator would be pretty weird.

Duvenator... with burnt hair!

My evil villain!! If you will villain that like...

shoots... Like perhaps people...

Oh man, its like a duvenator..

youth down!!! Got him with the goose down.

Oh, the D David Noda, well, for those who don't know the D David Noda yet, I just want to say some things because I just, your journey is quite remarkable.

Thank you. It is such a great privilege to have you here.

So, Hanam was born 12 .5 weeks premature and...

Just a smidge. Just a smidge, just the three months.

And your dad's wedding ring actually was able to fit around your arm.

If people would like perspective on how small you were.

Yes, and my first hat fit a tennis ball.

First hat. What sort of a hat was it?

I'm imagining a top hat.

Yeah it was clearly a top hat.

That is not the question I expected, what kind of hat?

What's the name? This was a very remarkable part of this story.

I was visualizing the hat you were wearing, it seemed like a top hat.

Top hat on the tennis pole, that would be a great look for a baby.

There should be baby top hats.

Okay, don't worry about what hat it was.

Okay, definitely not the most important part of this.

to prove that there are more important questions to be asked.

During her stay in the ICU, Anna had a bleed on her brain.

It was diagnosed with peri -ventricular leukomalasia.

Yep. Good job Hugh.

Thank you. We more commonly refer to it as PVL because that is so much easier.

Oh yeah. Yeah. I have no problems pronouncing it, so I don't mind some helping.

Thank you to George.

That is actually what led to cerebral palsy.

Yeah. Well, it's not a completely straight line.

It's hard to tell because the thing with cerebral palsy is, no version of it is exactly the same as any other.

So even if you meet people with CP who present similarly, there will be slight differences.

But for me, yeah, basically what PVO is it's a thing where it eats away at the white matter in your brain and leaves cysts behind and then they explained it to my parents as when the cysts dissolved, so did the parts of my brain that the cysts were attached to.

So they said it worked like a black hole and we were like, yeah, yeah, yeah and then a So a couple of years ago, I got an MRI for something, and we pulled it out and we could actually see the holes, and we're like, oh, there they are.

Oh, you could show it off that really?

Wow. Whoa. Yeah. How was that?

It was very trippy because I thought when they said like a hole, it would be like something that you need, like a special medical instrument or like special training to be like able to identify, and I was like, no, I can see that, and I'm not a doctor.

That's very scary. Yeah.

Yeah, wow. She wizz.

So your parents were told in the hospital and your mom's joining us here today, which is very exciting.

Behind the curtain, the Wizard of Oz, as you said before.

Your parents are told that worst case scenario, you would never be able to walk, talk or feed yourself.

Correct and obviously that didn't come to pass because otherwise, this would be an epic hallucination you were all having together.

Collectively. The very first hallucinatory and perfect selfie.

Um, can you describe cerebral palsy?

Like your experience with cerebral palsy, you say there's different, for different people.

Yeah. So cerebral palsy is a condition that affects my fine and gross motor skills.

So in nonscientific English, that means it affects everything from my ability to stand up, um, my balance.

So I have zero balance.

So if I stood up without holding on anything I would last maybe two seconds Max before I hit the floor and It's stuff like getting on a bed being able to dress myself go to the bathroom independently I Won't be driving a car or winning 100 meter sprint anytime soon sadly I think we'll leave that for gout -gout a new sunbolt.

Yeah, I I want to see those two face off now.

I'm like, can we do that?

Can we do an epic race of some kind?

I just discovered gout yesterday.

Yeah. It's unbelievable.

Especially because he's only like 16 or something.

So he's going to continue to grow and like get stronger.

Wow. So he'll get faster, I guess.

When do sprinters peak?

26 to 30. Oh, wow. There's 10 years off peaking.

And he's already got the Australian record, doesn't he?

Yeah. That's ridiculous.

Well, this is not a Ghatgat episode.

So against Ghat Ghat, I have unfortunately no hope...

But yeah. And it affects things like hand writing, my ability to like use a knife and fork properly by a musical instrument, do up the buttons on something, all that kind of stuff.

You fell in love with the art of storytelling from a very young age.

I did. I've wanted to be a writer since I was four.

Really? Yeah. Consciously knew that you wanted to be a writer.

Well I think that was about the age that I realized that the names at the bottom of the books that I loved reading every day were actually like real people.

Oh yeah. And were like, wait, you get to do this for a job?

Cool. I want to do that.

Like the idea of like inventing stories.

Yeah. We talk about Gack out at the age of 16 being a phenomenon at the age of 15 you're working from Mumma Mia.

I was, which is no small workplace environment that's for sure.

That's an extraordinary, I mean that is just incredible.

Age 15 to me, I think it's just, yeah, I mean they went on from there you've done so many incredible things.

Your work has been published in the OBC every day.

Are up the Guardian careers with STEM, you're the editor -in -chief of the publication platform Missing Perspectives.

I was, yes. You were, sorry, yes you were.

That's okay, it's only a recent change.

Yes, yeah, and your name became known worldwide when you called out Lizzo for a discriminatory lyric and lyrics songs?

What an amazing it was!

That was a complete accident!

Really? Well, it was one of those things where, you know, you tweet and you go, Well, that's how I feel, but then they're not going to read it.

Yeah, no one's going to read it.

Yeah, and it took me like five seconds to write.

You know, I tweet all the time.

and then I picked up my phone a couple of hours later because I think it was like the long weekend or something.

So we were doing things and I went, oh, that's hot and then went, wait.

The phone was hot. Why is it hot?

And looked down and was like, oh my God.

You have 1 billion.

What is happening? And then it just kind of kept going and it got to the point where I was like, okay, Okay.

So Lizzo might not see it, but someone somewhere who knows her or who knows a member of her team is going to find this and then what happens?

And before you go on, what did the tweet say?

So the tweet was basically like, Hey, Lizzo, just so you know, cause she used the word spaz, which is obviously short for spastic and the type of cerebral palsy that I have is called spastic, diplegic cerebral palsy.

Because I have um, spasticity or kind of this unending like constant tightness in my body, particularly in my legs.

So even now while I'm talking to you, I am pushing hard through my feet.

And my quads will be quite sore after this.

Because it will be like I've been in a squat the whole time I was talking to you.

It's called dystonia and it's something that happens a lot when I concentrate.

So for For instance, I was doing my three hour HSC PDHPE exam and I got a quad cramp in the middle of the exam.

And I was like, don't think that's supposed to happen.

But cool. But of all the exams to get a quad cramp in, PDHPE is probably the right one.

Like let me just write about this for an anthropoc..

I'll just describe what's going on.

Describe. So is that an involuntary thing?

Yeah, it is. I can't control that.

And even though I'm aware that it's happening, I can't do anything really about it.

So yeah, it happens when I'm concentrating, when I'm excited, if I'm like really focused on something and especially for like something like an exam, I can only type with two fingers.

So I'm going at it as fast as I can because I'm like, I gotta get the words out.

But yeah, basically I just said, hey, Lizzo, that word spaz, it doesn't mean what you think it means, like it actually means this, and it's really not cool that you use that and like, do better, basically, was the call in 2022.

Were you a fan of Lizzo's?

Yeah, and I thought because at the time, she had like, such a platform of empathy and like radical acceptance and just being who you are and all of that, I was like, oh, this isn't this doesn't really vibe with that.

So I'm just going to gently call it out and see what happens.

Seems like someone who would want to know.

Yeah, didn't didn't expect her to necessarily do anything about it.

Cause didn't think that re -recording and re -releasing a song was that easy, because if it was when I include that word in the first place wasn't, that was kind of my thinking.

But yeah, that exploded.

And then I got a message three days after I sent a tweet from a friend that was just an all -in -caps.

She's changing the lyric, check Instagram now.

Whoa. And I'm sitting there with a bowl of Apex spoon halfway to my mouth, going, what?

Whoa. Check Instagram.

Oh, my god. There's a full written statement happening.

And she's apologizing.

And, wow, isn't that nice?

Because obviously, as a marginalized woman herself, She knows the impact of certain words and slurs that have probably been used against her.

So you're right I didn't think she'd want to do that intentionally and now she's changing it cool and at the same time like as wonderful as Liz's response was and I got lots of wonderful responses from people who were disabled who felt kind of Vindicated or people who hadn't realized that the word was necessarily bad and we're going to work to you eradicate it from their vocabulary.

I also got pretty significantly trolled.

Oh, really? Yeah, I think if you drew up a bingo card of all of the insults, you probably throw it a young woman.

Most of them would have been marked off by that experience.

Which is not fun. Very surreal to be like, wait, you're targeting me?

Like I'm just sitting at home in my bedroom.

What are you doing?

And then six weeks later Beyonce releases a song with the same slur in it.

And someone was trying to bait me and they're like, oh, so are you gonna call out Beyonce too?

And I was like, what's going on?

And then I look up the lyrics to this Beyonce song and I was like, Lord help me.

I have to change all the lyrics in the world Come on man I remember coming downstairs and being like Mum, Beyonce's done it now I think I have to call out Beyonce and she's like I was like but Beyonce's Beyonce Yeah, that's a whole new level.

I'm going to die. But you're the divinator.

Like, something – This is not going to be good.

Wow. It's such a weird position to be in where you feel like it's your obligation to call that Beyoncé.

When I was like, well, I did it for Lizzo.

I guess, same rules apply.

And were people contacting you saying, are you going to say something?

Yeah, yeah, they were, and then I wrote a piece, and I woke up one morning to my – for my phone ringing.

So this is after the Beyonce thing?

So this is after the Beyonce thing.

And it was a radio show host.

I can't remember who it was.

And I didn't know they were going to be calling me.

So all of a sudden, I'm like live on radio.

And I was like, no, I think it was national radio.

And they go, morning, Hannah.

How do you feel about Beyonce changing the lyric?

And at that point, I didn't actually know she had.

And I was like, huh?

I feel great while internally being like, what the, and then I got off the phone and I was like, you can't sing, changed the lyric.

And I remember getting a call, I think it was from James Valentine, like the ABC radio guy, and he said, how does it feel to be the most powerful person in pop culture today?

And I went, oh. I mean, good, I guess.

It's fine. It's fine.

And because of the fact that Lizzo and Beyonce were also happened to be both African American women, I was also being accused of being quite racist.

I was like I promise it had nothing to do with that.

Like I'd of called out whoever it was but no one would kind of hear me.

And I remember at one stage, someone called me the...

What did they say? The poster child for white privilege.

And I went, I think there's a few people in that que ahead of me.

But it's like, cool.

That is such a good comeback.

I didn't actually write it down cause I was like, don't engage.

But also like... Oh, perfect thing to say.

Or, like, I had people saying, like, you'll never walk.

And I'm like, is that supposed to be news to me?

Like, surprise, after 23 years of being in this disabled body, I'm only just figuring out now that I...

I thought it was just like a message I sent you.

Like, you'll never walk.

And I was like, alone?

Like, are you a Liverpool fan?

Like, what's going on?

And I still will occasionally get people being, like, Why do you make moves on Beyonce change it or like some some version of that might it was two years ago guys Can we like move forward?

But yeah, it got to the point where I had people sending me gifts of like people in wheelchairs being pushed off cliffs and oh I was like, I didn't even know there was a gift for that.

I would have hoped not I'm like That's something I probably could have done without knowing cool the internet really does spring out the worst in people doesn't it?

It does, but also like the internet is why I'm in the position that I'm in because if I hadn't written an open letter to Disney when I was 15, I wouldn't have got the job at Mum and Mia if I didn't start a petition.

Can we just jump back at that open letter to Disney.

I feel like people should know at that.

Yup. What was that?

So the open letter to Disney was, I'm assuming you've all seen the wonderful film Inside out.

I still haven't seen Inside Out 2 yet.

Ryan you have to! I don't know why.

But you need to bring tissues with you because you're gonna cry.

I don't know why I haven't watched it but I haven't anyway.

OK, so the gist of Inside Out, obviously, for anyone who hasn't seen it like Ryan is that you have these emotions inside this kid's head and it's like the visual manifestation of those emotions and I remember going to CDAT and thinking, that's pretty heavy duty for a kids movie, like I wonder how hard they had to sell that concept and then I'm like, well, if they can do that, surely it's a hop, skip and a jump.

No real pun intended there, but a hop, a hop, skip, and a jump to creating a disabled character.

Like some someone that's in a wheelchair or otherwise visually obviously disabled.

So I wrote this open letter to Disney and posted it on my blog.

And then was bold on Twitter and tagged Mia.

Mia Friedman, yeah.

Mia Friedman. And then I got an email from her team saying, would it be all right if they republished it?

And I was like, yeah.

And then I got an email a few hours later that was like, actually, do you want a job and I was like, yeah.

A few hours later. Yeah.

And I was like, I don't think that's how that's supposed to happen, but cool.

And you were 15? Yeah.

So I was two weeks away from turning 16, I think.

So I did it for like year 11.

Then a couple of years ago, the idea kind of came back around again.

And I started an official change .org petition for a disabled Disney princess.

And I did that very intentionally because I know that aside from Mickey Mouse the princesses are the characters that are seeing the most.

So they're the ones that get featured on the bed spreads and the toys, the books, the lunch boxes.

So I was like, well, if we want to just have a character, we want it to be princess because that's gonna have maximum impact because the impact is twofold.

Like obviously you're helping disabled kids see themselves, but you're also teaching able -bodied kids not to be afraid of stuff.

And did you ever get a response from Disney?

I got a response that basically was like, we see you, we hear you, we understand our responsibility to tell stories well, and that's as far as it went.

But I'm also still of the opinion that you need representation in animation specifically, because you should start representation as young as you can.

And then it becomes normal.

And then you don't have any of kids laughing out at things they don't understand, And it also makes it harder for parents to shush their kids and pull them away before they can ask the question that they're naturally going to because they're curious.

Like I have kids ask me all sorts of weird and wonderful things.

What's the most common question?

It's generally phrased like, what's wrong with you?

And I'm like, well, there's nothing specifically wrong with me because I don't want to build on that assumption, but my legs don't work.

And I kind of explained that like the messages get a bit scrambled like they don't quite make it from my brain to my legs So I kind of have scrambled legs, and that always makes them laugh Yeah But it just depends because some kids Will be really little and just want to like their eyes go wide at the wheelchair And they just want to touch it and they just want to like that.

They go wheels wheels wheels Then the parents are like yeah, it's called a wheelchair.

She uses it get around and one of my favourites was, were you born in your wheelchair?

And I just completely folded over and laughed at because all I could picture was this tiny little wheelchair coming out with the umbilical cord that we was like in.

Like the wheelchair grows with you.

And I was like, ouch, that would have hurt.

Yup. Jill, we haven't touched on, we are talking about movies here, but you are so multi -talented.

you scored acting roles in late -comers, the first Australian film to portray a disabled person having sex, as well as Audrey, which was released this year and it's available to watch now.

Yeah. So you do it all.

Well, I give it a go, but I think again, like, as a kid, I was always a drama kid, like, I could generally be found on or near a stage.

And I think it was just because then it was more storytelling and also I could control all what people thought of me then.

Or like I could deliver a punchline and have control of the people laughing at me instead of kids laughing at me because they thought I was weird or...

Oh, that was a conscious thought.

And I was always taught like, if you make the joke first, it takes the air out of it.

So you guys have probably noticed I have quite a strong sense of humor and that's also to make people feel naturally more comfortable around me because I think the instinct, unfortunately, still, when you see a wheelchair is to kind of freeze for a second and be like, do we mention it?

Do we know? Do we like, and so if I tell a joke, then straight away, people are like, oh, it's okay.

Like it's safe. I'm not going to say the wrong thing.

Is it, is it a frustrating burden to always have to be the one to take that initiative or is there any power in the do you find power in...

Both, because I think the part that I would probably classify as slightly more burdensome is probably the relentlessness of it in the sense that, I don't get a break from being disabled as no one gets a break from being themselves, but I'm always having to do some form of labour, whether it's for other people, for myself in my own brain, like unlearning internalized stuff or yeah.

And it can get pretty tiring, but I also acknowledge that like, well, if I don't do it, there might not be another chance.

Yeah. Like this, this person's interaction with me who define the way they, the way they look at and feel comfortable interacting with disabled people forever.

Cause I might be the first one they meet or the only one they meet for a while.

And so I kind of owe it to everybody to make sure that I give them the best interaction I can, so that the next time they meet a disabled person, hopefully that pops up in their mind.

That feels like an enormous responsibility.

It can be sometimes, Ryan.

I have very small shoulders.

It carries a lot though.

It can be a bit heavy sometimes.

Believe it or not, this is a vulnerability house and we haven't picked a card yet.

So we've just been so, so, this is so interesting talking to you Hannah.

And there's so much to talk about but I mean, I hate breaking rules and the rules are we've got to pick your cards.

So we have this deck of cards.

Now for those of you who haven't heard the vulnerability house before, the way it works with this deck of cards, each of these cards has a question on them, which will hopefully invoke some level of vulnerability or a memory or a story or something.

And the way we usually do it is we pick three cards and then if one of those cards Resonates with you in some way and sparks a memory or a feeling or anything, then you can have a talk about it.

Yep Do you want me to just pick three for you?

Sure. So for those of you who aren't watching the video Ryan is being my hands because I struggled to turn things over sometimes and if I if I try to do it the whole deck Would end up all over the table So those three cards Oof, these are, you guys are good at this.

So on card number one, let the card closest to me, we have, whoever you never really thanked for the influence they have had on your life, which is something I actually try to do quite consciously a lot.

I feel like that came through in your book as well.

Thank you. The book I'll let myself in, by the way, it's so beautiful.

In what part of your life do you feel immature?

Well, that's a loaded question, isn't it?

It wasn't meant to be.

No, that's all right.

And how do you see yourself?

Is it the same way your loved ones see you?

Why or why not? Okay, with that one, you guys have a hundred percent in talking to my therapist.

To be clear, not 100%.

No, you're not. We have not been, I guess you've heard of it.

So, more, it's closer to zero than a hundred, but I get your point.

Yeah. Yeah, okay. So, which of those three, if any, feel...

I reckon we're going to go with how do you see yourself?

Is it the same way your loved ones see you?

Why or why not? The question your therapist gave us.

Yeah, why not? Okay.

Wow. So the short answer to that is no, it's not the same.

I think my version of myself has a bit of catching up to do with where I'm at now because I felt stuck in the same place for a long time.

And I've done a fair bit of growing in the last couple of years.

Life has transformed in some very big and small but all equally kind of unbelievable ways.

Is there a moment which you kind of see is you're like pre -Lizzo, post -Lizzo, or what's the moment?

Yeah... I think it kind of started in the pandemic because I started noticing how blasé people were about the stakes of Covid in the beginning and how it didn't take much for me to figure out that Like some of the people in the disabled community, whether they were friends or strangers, like Covid would be an absolute disaster, it would probably mean the end of their life if they got it.

So I felt very much like, well, I'm privileged enough to literally have a voice and be able to articulate myself.

Don't you think you better use it?

And that was a real 180, because when I was a teenager, there was nothing I wanted less than to be a disability advocate.

I did not want anything to do with disabled stuff.

I was doing my best to proverbially run away from it and someone whose body isn't built for running, I was pretty damn good at it, in that sense.

So take that, Gout -Gout.

I'll tell you what, this Hannah GoutGout feud is building.

That's the real feud.

That's what we're going to get out of this episode.

No, that's definitely it.

But yeah, no, when I was a teenager, I would have done anything else because I just didn't want to be defined by my disability.

I didn't want people to look at me and only see my disability.

And I felt like that had been the emotional center point of a lot of my school experiences.

There's a lot of times I ate lunch alone as a kid, and I think that is kind of the image I have of myself sometimes that I return to.

I know you guys talk all the time about no matter what you achieve, there's always that little voice in the back of your head that is saying nasty things or not letting you celebrate something or not letting you be in the moment or whatever, and for me, that little voice looks an awful lot like little me sitting alone at lunch time or not being invited to the party or not being invited over because someone's parents thought it was too hard to have me at the house or someone saying, oh, we wanted to invite you to the party, but we had stairs.

So my parents said you couldn't come instead of asking how we would navigate that.

They would just take the invitation away.

So I think I've kind of been stuck there for a long time because it persisted all the way through high school and then uni happened.

And that was kind of meant to be a fresh start.

But by the time I found my feet there, the pandemic hit and I was doing it from my room.

If, just to go back to that experience of like the way you put it, the invitation got taken away.

Without, I mean it's, I don't want to assume how that fell.

I think I can imagine how that would feel, but I'd be interested to know like what is from an emotion point of view.

It was a lot of, I guess I'm not, guess I'm not good enough then because they couldn't figure out a way for it to work.

Like being angry that they didn't think to ask me or my parents, being sad that no matter how hard I try, or what other parts of me people liked, they weren't ever gonna be able to get past the chair.

And I wasn't able to get past the chair for a long time either.

Cause it just felt like this giant barrier to everything.

And I'm not gonna lie, sometimes it still does, even though things are miles better than they once were in some ways.

It doesn't feel good.

I moved that far at all because I think for me, unfortunately because I missed out on a lot of childhood friendship stuff adult friendships are very different, but because I didn't get the childhood friendship stuff, my brain still kind of goes, but why can't it be like that?

And I have to consciously be like, but we're all adults now.

We all have different lives.

We all have different time just because you don't talk to someone for a couple of months doesn't mean they don't like you.

Like all that kind of stuff is stuff I constantly have to remind myself.

Because otherwise the voice in the back of my head is just spewing poison, but yeah.

I think all of that kind of stuff leaves you with a real thirst to prove yourself constantly.

And like, that could be exceeding people's expectations of me as a disabled person because when I was a kid, And if I had a dollar, every time someone asked me a variation of the question, what's your Paralympic sport going to be, I'd be up there with Gina and Rupert.

And it's not till I've gotten older that I realised that they thought they were helping.

But I was also very quickly able to go, well, hang on a minute.

I've got two able -bodied sisters just over there who are younger than me, but you're not asking them what their Olympic sports going to be.

So, why not? Oh, well, because not everyone gets to the Olympics.

Not everyone is good enough.

Yeah, okay. Or not everyone wants to.

Ah, there you go. So, why doesn't that same logic apply to me?

And for a long time, I think that's because it was the only real marker of success that was publicly visible or disabled people like when I was growing up it was either five minutes of the Paralympics at the end of the evening news on like the ABC or it was Road Safety ads where obviously the context of that is to try and persuade people not to make it dangerous or ill thought out decision behind the wheel of car but obviously to make those ads kind of hit home being in a wheelchair is meant to be like your life is over let dadada but for me someone who has obviously had a permanent condition since

birth the idea that people thought my life was over because I was you know seeing and in and understanding and internalizing these ads from like age of 5 onwards seeing people thought my life was I've been like at five I'm like oh that that doesn't feel good so yeah it's just been constantly trying to prove myself and I I still do it all the time I'm like I'll prove that I'm a good friend I'll prove that I'm a good actor I'll prove that I like that I'm a good advocate that I that I'll just do all the stuff and if I just keep doing maybe the feeling will eventually go away I mean I've done a lot

of stuff so far in 25 years and feeling hasn't gone away yet.

So, was the feeling there before your teenage years or did it come with teenage years?

No. It came straight pretty much straight away.

It came from the idea that not that I necessarily had teachers who were overt about this, but there were teachers who I could tell didn't think I could do it.

Weren't sure that I was smart enough to be in the room.

and I would see people have this preconceived assumption of me and then I'd put up my hand and ask a question and you could watch their face just kind of change.

And it still happens now, constantly.

Because I've been travelling a lot for work, this past year, flight attendants will say, oh, so you going on holiday or coming home or what are you up to?

Like, no, I'm travelling for work, and much to them are pretty good at catching themselves and hiding it, but some people let the surprise be written all over their face.

Oh gosh, what do you mean, a disabled person that's travelling for work?

When you say, you said a phrase before, I'm gonna paraphrase it, you said it better than me.

But proving, it was about proving people's expectations of you wrong.

I imagine that there are many ways to react of people having low expectations for you.

And I imagine there would be a temptation to retreat sometimes and isolate and just not want to deal in that at all.

Was there a moment where you were like, No, I'm going to prove people wrong and that was it?

Or is it a sort of fluctuation?

I think it's being fairly consistent, but the fluctuation comes from the I'm tired.

I really don't want to do this anymore.

I'm like in the, kind of really bad episodes of mental health that I've had.

The thoughts will be, I don't want to be me anymore.

It's too hard. I'm too tired.

Um, and it's taken me, it's taken me a long time to be able to identify that that's actually what the thoughts were.

But yeah, that's the kind of stuff that pops up and like to the credit, no one in my personal life, expects me to prove myself.

Everyone tells me that like, it's okay.

You've done the thing.

You can stop now, but I think it's gonna be.

In terms of like, you've done the hard, you've done, yeah.

necessarily think I believe it.

Believe that you're, that you're worthy.

I have pretty low, low self esteem, low self worth.

Um, which is why this question is so interesting because I see myself as probably a lot smaller and less powerful or put together the raw insert raise here.

Like, then a lot of other people.

Yeah. And now it's interesting, because the proof of myself stuff is still there, but then because of the success that I've had and because of the platform that I have and the people who messaged me, and are like, thank God, my disabled kid is going to have you to look up to, or something like that, there's also a lot of, okay, well, I can't let anyone down.

Yeah. And that's the big wait on the - Yes, on the small shoulders.

On the small shoulders.

It's also a lot of weight to, a lot of weight for you to carry when underneath that you're dealing with your own self -worth like that's something fragile underneath it that's carrying a lot away.

And also like my version, like I'm pretty hard on myself, my version of letting people down doesn't leave much room for error.

You've got pretty high expectations of yourself.

Yeah. You write so beautifully about self -worth in your book, I'll Let My Self In, which, by the way, is one of the best titles for a book I've ever heard.

Yes. It's magnificent.

Interestingly enough though, and again, I think this comes back to like the self -worth thing, wanting to be a writer, I never ever wanted to write a book about myself.

Was like, no, that's a memoir thing.

That happens when you're like 80 years old and Mick Jago, You know, it's not like...

He's the only one to have written a memoir.

But you know what I mean?

You have to have a whole life that people are interested in.

You can't write a memoir in your early 20s.

That's a wanker thing to do.

So I was always sure that it was going to be fiction.

And then at the end of high school, actually, and I talk about this in the book, I had a pretty decently sized nervous breakdown conveniently before my Year 12 exams.

I just had to hold it together and I didn't, but that's okay.

What was it about? Oh, just I think it was just an implosion of a lot of different things, so I had gotten to Year 12 and still wasn't getting anywhere kind of friends.

In fact, things were going backwards.

There had been times where I thought I was making progress.

And then it turned out I wasn't.

Like every time I thought things were getting better, the rug would get pulled out from under me.

You shared a story where you went to a friend's house for a sleepover.

Yes. Can you tell us that story?

I can tell you that story.

So when I was, I think, 17 there was a girl, and I'm not going to use her name, but she and she sat behind me in maths class and we clicked.

And I was like where have you been?

This is fun, like maybe this is the friend that all the movies and all the songs are about, I'm like great, and we got really really really close to the point where we could detect it even like the tiniest shifts in each other's moods.

And she had asked me, none of her first sleepovers, and I was ecstatic because the number of sleepovers I've had whether it's been me going to someone else's house, small, very, very small.

And we went away to art camp and we're sitting on the bus and she's really quiet, very withdrawn.

And I went, are you all right?

And she's like, yeah, I might.

Like, are you still alright if I come over?

Like, and I remember asking her a couple of times, like, are you sure?

I don't have to come over if you don't want me to.

Like, I gave her some very clear ounce and her mom picked us up from Art Camp and we got there and I reckon I'd been there for maybe an hour and she sat me down and said, I have to tell you something and I went, Uh -oh.

You know that feeling you get when you're in a lift or if you're on a plane and your stomach just like plunges through the floor?

That was the feeling.

I was like, warning, warning, warning, something bad is coming like pretty much I have to tell you something or like we have to talk.

Some variation of that sentence is never good news.

So I kind of setting me very still.

And I remember it felt like all the sound in the room, except her voice vanished.

And she said, look, I don't really want you here.

And I went, what? And she's like, well, you know, you're full of darkness.

You'd like drag everyone down.

You... You are just so miserable and sad all the time, and it's too much.

Like you put too much pressure on everybody, and like all this kind of stuff.

And to be fair, I had been going through a rough time because I was also trying to prove to myself and to the education department that like, I was a worthy student who deserved to do her exams in the best way that I could do them and I blocked out most of what she said, but that's kind of the general gist of it.

Then you start over, you still - Well, because I remember sitting there going and my voice came out like really high -pitched like, okay, like thanks for telling me like, I'll try to be better.

uh right and I remember sitting there going okay two choices here one I stay two her mums just out there and I come out an hour into our sleepover and ask to go home and when she asks why I tell her the truth and say she doesn't want me here like this is what she said and then I could just see it and I didn't know whether this was what would happen or not, but I could just see the situation being like when her mum confronted her about what she said, she'd say she hadn't said it.

And I was like, okay, so that's not really an option so I have to stay.

And that is one of the I think the best acting performances I have ever given in my life.

us. Because inside I was like, What is happening?

Um, and you flooded with really strong feelings of like home sickness.

Yeah. Like that's what I would've.

Yeah. But I was like, I can't call my parents cause like they're at an event and I don't want to upset their night and also they're like far enough away that it would take them a long time to go and get me.

And I don't really like any phone call I'd have to make I have to make it in this house with her parents, with her twin sister, with whoever.

And I remember we were watching Stand By Me, which is obviously a beautiful film about friendship.

And I remember standing up watching this film and I'd never seen it before at that point, looking at my friend sleeping and being like, now what?

And we got up and she asked her mum, oh, is it okay if I sleep in my sister's room tonight?

And her mum went, no, you have a guest.

Like, obviously you're gonna sleep in the same room as Hannah.

Like that's the whole point.

Of a sleepover. Of a sleepover.

No. And I was like, oh my god.

And, you know, I'd had visions of, we'll stay up half the night talking and we pretty much I got into bed, said goodnight and that was it.

And then I got up the next morning and we, like I said we were in the same maths class and she was still doing some maths homework and I said, oh do you want to maybe do something this morning, hoping to kind of resurrect the events.

And she was like, no, I have this stuff to finish.

And I'm like, oh, okay, well, could we maybe like put a record on or something while you're doing that?

Cause I've done my part and I'm just kind of sitting here watching you do your homework.

And she was like, oh no, I have to study in silence.

and I was like, oh, okay.

So I was reading my book and as I was reading my book, I could feel like the kind of protective thaw that I'd put over myself, starting to like splinter a little bit.

And I was like, uh -oh, I'm getting angry and upset right now.

And coincidentally, her dad put his head around the door at that exact moment and said, Hey, just let me know when you want to go home, Hannah.

And I was like, now please.

And she came, but she didn't even really say goodbye.

And I remember my auntie shutting the door and saying, you're home early.

Like we'd been specifically told not to expect you till like the afternoon, because like it was going to be a full full two days.

And I was just like, tears.

And then it got to the point where I was like, well, are all of the people who I call my friends, Do they all think this way?

And they've all just been pretending and keeping it from me and like, what's happening, and what's going on?

And there had also been all that stuff previously.

And I wrote about this too with the year 11 social on the boat, which was very wheelchair inaccessible.

So I couldn't go. And my year didn't care that I and another disabled girl in my year were the only two who couldn't go.

Oh, it's heartbreaking.

And stuff like that.

So a lot of friendship trauma.

I just read the book, this stuff continued to just happen to you over and over again and say - Yes.

Repeatedly. And my instinct when I make a friend now is how long before the shoe drops.

Like, I have a really, really good friend.

Someone I would, someone who actually called me their best friend recently.

And I was like, I can't speak.

Like, thankfully they texted it to me so I wasn't physically in front of them because I think I would have just been like, ergh." But, even then, like, I had to talk to my psychologist and they were like, I feel like I don't trust it.

Like my brain's going, not, if this falls apart.

It's going, when this falls apart?

What am I going to do?

Do you feel that...

I was going to ask you exactly, you already went there with what I wanted to ask, but I wanted to ask that in more general terms, when with the roles you've been playing, the some of the opportunities you've had to speak at the like at the Press Club recently, and stuff like that, when these opportunities come around and they seem all incredible, do you feel a sense of when's this all gonna stop?

Yep, every single time.

Everything like I, we have this joke at home that my life is a snowball and it just keeps rolling.

And it's like I don't know whether I'm in front of the snowball, trying to stay out of the way before it flattens me behind the snowball race and catch up or somewhere in the middle of screaming as we go down the hill.

And every time I'm like, well, surely it's gonna stop now.

Like, I have a lot of impostor syndrome about like, well, yeah, but surely this can't be how life is now.

Like surely someone's gonna tap me on the shoulder and say, all right, that's enough.

Go back to just being regular.

Almost like you don't deserve the success.

Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much.

And then it's a lot of like, why did this success happen to me and not someone else and like feeling guilty for taking up space?

Oh wow. Yeah. I just need to remind you right now, like how well you write.

Like we said this before, but like everything you do, you do so incredibly well, that is why this snowball continues to get a part of the size and momentum.

Because like, I mean, this is, yeah, the, the, the whole time reading a book, I was just the first thing I can, today Josh just said, how well does she write?

Mm -hmm. It's an incredible skill that you have.

Yeah. And to hear...

I'm really bad at taking compliments.

Well, I'm going to give you one now as well.

To back up exactly what he was saying, I actually listened to the book.

I'm a terrible reader, That's OK, it's still reading.

Well, the thing I loved about it was that it's you reading it.

I thought I was good at speaking until I started reading my audio book.

And then was like, why have I lost the ability to form words?

And also, why did no one tell me to put more commas in my sentences?

Why did I write this so long?

I can't breathe. It was like, damn.

I don't think I've read a book that has made— brought me to tears more often.

Oh, I'm sorry. No, in a beautiful way.

It's not all just like sad tears, happy tears, all the kind of tears.

All the tears. It's the way you write, but it's also the way you read it.

It's so beautiful. There's a vulnerability in the way you talk.

And I think that there's but it's not just vulnerability.

There's like this incredible mixture of vulnerability and power that come together that is so engaging.

And I don't know if this is going up at the top just to also back up what you said.

I think it's worth saying to you because I'm sure you've been said this a lot, but even if you weren't brilliant at all this stuff, like you're still worthy and you're still incredible.

Yeah, I've started saying that a lot to other disabled people too because I'm like, look, the versions of success that you see are me, Dylan Orcott, like Chloe Hayden, and we're relatively doing well and like there's a lot of, there's a lot of skill and there's a lot of very big opportunities, but it's okay if your life isn't big.

Like it doesn't have to be big to mean something, it can be just to regulate everyday life and be just as just as valuable and just as important.

And it's funny because I'm a lot better at saying those things to other people than I am at believing them myself.

But I think I've started saying it as a way of trying to get my brain to believe it too.

Yeah, I reckon it'll start rubbing off on yourself at some point.

So in the book you write about...

The chapter started like in quite a heartbreaking way and then it just turned into this extraordinary example of kindness around the time that you had a fall out of your chair, and the school decided.

It wasn't. So what happened was it was a regular day at primary school and some of the ramps at my primary school were particularly steep and this one was a particular monster.

There was no way I was getting it up by myself.

And this one kid, who was my friend at the time, was pushing me up the ramp.

My first warning sign should have been that he wasn't tall enough to see over the handlebars, but you live and you learn, so it's okay.

And the thing about wheelchairs is the front wheels are like shopping trolley wheels, so if they hit something, they stop.

So we were going up this ramp, we've hit a stick, the chairs stopped, it's flipped and I've kept going.

So I flew over the side of the ramp, landed on the ground and I was like, I'm okay.

and the teacher's like running over and it's like, yeah, you need to go to the office right now.

I didn't know at that point, I was like, my head hurts, yeah, that's because I had a giant egg on my head and then my school was so freaked out by what had happened, they told me that if I wanted to come back and be on the playground, I needed to wear headgear.

Like a footballer's piece of headgear.

And I was like you guys I'm already like please don't I don't have friends now look I'm not gonna have friends if I wear head if I wear head gear like oh god it's gonna make it so much worse but anyway they insisted so Mum went out and bought headgear and she's laughing because the only piece of headgear she could find, was bright blue with like red trim around the outside.

Like a bacon. Yeah, it was like a neon sign!

Like, this kid is different!

You didn't get the helmet that said that, did you?

No. She tried to sell it to me, I'll never forget it.

It's like, oh, you'll be really cool because you'll be like Jonathan Thurston, who at at the time was like the only thing in the room.

And I was like, oh, we're supporting New South Wales, I don't care about Queens land, I don't wanna be like, man!

That was the issue.

It's like, ah, no! So I was like going to school with lasers coming out my eyes, being like I hate this.

And my teachers decided Mrs. Whitfield and Mrs. Gazy, if they're listening.

They were a dream team.

They decided that on the first day that I had to wear my headgear, they would make every kid in my class, so that was about 30 of us and them wear funny or silly hats.

Oh, wow. So that in the playground, there were 30 kids and that was harder to make fun of than one.

That are good, that's brilliant.

And I have never ever forgotten that kindness because it is one of the single kindest things that someone has ever done for me in just making me feel like it was going to be okay.

And so it meant that the next day, when I had to wear the hey you by myself, it was okay.

Yeah and not only okay, but you're part of us, like you're one of us.

Like you belong with us, which is all I've ever wanted as a kid and as an adult.

So yeah, it's one of the singular, kindest moments in my life.

and it's the little things that mean the most.

I was just hoping that one of them was a baby top hat.

I think someone was wearing a top hat.

I'm not sure who, but I'm pretty sure if we go back and look at photos, there was definitely a top hat in there somewhere.

Such a silly thing to bring up after all.

It paid off. That is so beautiful, yeah, beautiful.

Well, one of the stories that moved me most I think, often when you ask people, their earliest memories, they're like 4 or 5 years old.

Yeah. One of your earliest memories is from actually when you were 3.

It is. I had a feeling you might want to talk about this one.

Well, I just I was so moved by this whole story, right?

So, the memory that he was talking about is the first time that I consciously went, Oh, I'm different.

So, I was at daycare at the time.

It was like a this beautiful home daycare.

So it was a really lovely, wholesome environment.

Not very many kids, home -cooked food every day.

It was great. And I finished my lunch, and my best friend at Daycare got up to go and play.

And I went, right, OK, well, I'm obviously going to go and play with her now too.

move. Then I look down, I was like, hmm, I'm not moving.

Why aren't I moving?

My brain wants me to move.

Doesn't it know how?

What's going on? It hadn't kind of occurred to me that I'd needed help to get into that chair in the first place to sit at the table or or that I was the only one who still needed help out of bed at naptime?

Like everyone else could kind of get themselves up and out to the living room.

Or that like, most of the time, some of these kids were being allowed to go into the bathroom by themselves and I never was and stuff like that.

And I remember going, huh, that's interesting.

And I think the next thought was, okay, well, we can't cry about this now.

We'll just have to file it away and ask mum.

Like mum knows everything so she'll have an answer.

I don't fully remember this, writing about it was as much using mum's memory of it as my own.

But I got in the car on the way home and said, I'm, um, why don't my legs work?

And it's only kind of when I got older that I found out from my dad that they were like, damn it we thought we had more time before, before she asked this question and we thought we had another year or two to kind of be like, prepare.

My mom was like, well, you have this thing called cerebral palsy and that means your legs don't work.

Why? Well, I don't know.

What, what do you mean you don't know?

Well, I don't know.

Well, who knows? No one, they don't know why.

What? What do you mean there's a question without an answer?

Oh yeah, at three. Like, what are, what are you talking about?

And then unfortunately when you, when you realize something like that, it's one of those things, you can't unrealize it.

So it suddenly becomes present in every scenario, every situation, it's kind of like a, I guess, extra person sitting at the table or like this giant hole that you just kind of have to move around.

And also like I didn't see anyone who looked like me, so I, once I figured out I was different, and I was like, well, that's okay, right?

And then I didn't find anything that necessarily told me it was.

So. A lot of incredible Hulk feelings, uh, went into that for a, for a while.

I was a pretty angry little kid.

Which makes sense. Yeah.

And, uh, it's, it's funny, I was watching the Avengers a couple of years ago and I I can't remember which of the characters it is, asks the Hulk, what's the secret?

Like how do you control when you go green or whatever?

And he went, oh, well, I'm just angry all the time.

And I just choose when to let it out and when not to.

And I went, oh, so that's what that is.

That's how that, that's what that feels like.

Cool. Okay, great. So I think there's a permanent part of me that we'll always be angry and sad and tired.

I just work really hard to make sure that that's not the part that rules everything else.

And the impact on your mental health, I'm guessing is… A lot.

This is a lot, yeah.

Yeah. And you've been through ups and downs throughout your life so far, but there have been some pretty dark places for you.

Many ups and downs.

Yeah, um. So I was probably 9 or 10 the first time that I had suicidal thoughts and they were the byproduct of some pretty intense medical trauma.

when I was a kid I had a lot of orthopedic surgery which is to do with bones and stuff like that and the first surgery I had was what they call multilevel surgery and they call it that because they do multiple things at once while the kids under anesthetic just to get it done.

So apologies if anyone's squamous you might want to skip this part but they broke my femurs, rotated we loaded them, inserted metal plates inside and then glued them back together.

Which - The femur is the bone from the hip to the knee, so - It's the biggest bone in your body.

Yeah. And the hardest?

To break. Yeah. That was a fun thing to learn in PDHPE.

Like 12 years later, and be like, oh, cool.

That explains that.

And be like, when it's impossible to break and I went, no, it's not.

You can't, you can't break it.

I'm not sure how they did it because I never asked them, but trust me, I've had blow broken ones.

And the thing about that is too, like you don't use your femur to white -bear either.

So they get you out of bed 24 hours after you've had the surgery and go, alright, it's time to walk.

And you're like, I really don't want to, like, it hurts.

They're like, you have to.

Okay, fine. So I have a really messed up relationship with exercise and physical fitness as well too, but, like, I'm a pretty small person now, but when I was nine, I was Which is really tiny, obviously.

And you guys talked about this, I think, in an episode with Grant Denier, and his drug addiction.

But the cocktail of drugs that I was on as a nine -year -old for pain were gabapentin, diazoapam, and oxycodone.

Oh my god. Yeah. And it's not till I got older and started rating about celebrities, whoever overdosed on drugs, And being like, well fuck, that's oxycodone for like, And I don't think a child's brain is built to be on narcotics at all, let alone that many.

So I had a terrible time.

I was like hallucinating.

I was, I would like go blank where I would be awake, but I have no memory of like what I'd done or what I'd said.

And then I'd come out of it and be like, what did I do?

And that was when I was like, I just want this to end.

I just wanted this to be over.

And like, I just want to be out of here.

And I think unfortunately because your brain is very much still developing, like I was always an anxious person, but that catapulted my anxiety, introduced me to our lovely friend, Depression, and those thoughts are like an emergency exit on an aeroplane.

And once they're pointed out, you notice it.

Like it's in the periphery of your vision everywhere.

I know it seems strange off the back of that to go back to something.

No, go ahead. There was something I wanted to ask you that I think ties into the end of that without wanting to gloss over what is extremely traumatic for you as a nine year old.

The, the concept of, I'd never thought of it this way before.

But as a three -year -old having, as Pat, you beautifully said it, a question without an answer and such a, at that point, no bigger question for you in your life and didn't have an answer.

That's got to profoundly affect your sort of relationship with uncertainty.

Yeah. It meant that I, when people said I don't know, I was like, but you have to know.

And it also meant that, as a kid, I asked questions from the time I got up in the morning to the time I went to bed at night.

I wanted to know everything, and I wanted to know it now.

And I was also the kid who very much needed to have a plan.

So like, if we were going out for the day, I needed to know where we were going, what we were doing, when we were gonna stop to eat, what we were gonna stop to eat, when we'd be home, all that kind of stuff.

I couldn't deal with change whatsoever, liver, which is hilarious now because my entire working life is built on uncertainty and change.

I said that to my psychologist recently and she's like, yeah you might have gone a little bit too far the other direction.

I was like, yeah. So it's no surprise to me at all that uncertainty would lead to anxiety to a huge degree.

So were you anxious from a very young age?

Yeah. I didn't know that I had anxiety until I was maybe 10 or 11.

But I'd had it for a long time at that point.

So I would have what I now understand to be like meltdowns or anxiety attacks as a kid.

But because I didn't have the language to articulate either what was going on in my head or for me to necessarily understand what an anxiety attack even was.

I thought there was something wrong with me.

Like bad, that I couldn't manage my emotions.

I was like, why do I just explode?

What's going on? And then I started to learn language and labels and names and stuff like that.

And then it was like, oh, well, at least I can tell people now that, like, I'm having a panic attack help.

Yeah. And it's interesting because, like, I've been in therapy since I was 4, so that's over 20 years, but a lot of the time when I was a kid, all of the tools that I was given would be swept out of my head by the size of what I felt.

So, I wasn't at a point where I was able to go, okay, let's take, you know, 10 deep breaths, So let's think of five positive things.

Like logically, I would know that that's what I needed to do, but I just couldn't access the toolbox.

Now I've gotten to the point where there's a little bit of a buffer, I guess, maybe it's just because I'm older and I've practiced, but now when it's happening, I can access the toolbox and be like, okay, sometimes it still doesn't work, but I can at least go logically.

I know this is what I need to do.

And I can do it. I feel, I feel like I've, I mean I'm 38 now, I feel like I can, I've only been able to access the toolbox a little bit this year.

Yeah, it's not a hundred, it's not 100 % of the time.

It's definitely far easier said than done, but there've been a couple of times where I'm like, hey, that actually worked.

Cool. Yeah. Yeah, it's a remarkable thing, but just to… it doesn't surprise me that a child is unable to access it.

I don't know about you guys, but I find that, like, when I'm going through something, it's very rare that I can have the, sort of, almost like a third -person experience to go, I don't know slow down, let's do something to stop this or anything like that.

I think that's… Oh, probably forever be trying to find new tools.

Yeah, yeah. It's trying to work the or even just get get the ones to work.

The ones I've got to work.

The brains are complicated, aren't they?

Seems to be. I think I've got a pretty good handle on mine, but you seem to have and through necessity in many ways.

But like this incredible team of people around you that help you and your mum's here today.

She is. She's hiding behind it.

She's hiding. Yeah.

The Wizard of Oz. The Wizard of Oz.

But I'd like... I love my mum.

But, like, I would love to hear how much you love your mum and the role your mum plays in your life.

Do you want to leave the room?

Would you like to come out while I do this?

Well, that would be really nice.

No, OK, she's the...

My mum means a lot to me.

I mean, I wouldn't be where I am.

without my mum or my dad, both my parents, it's a testament to them that when they found out that I had brain damage and that that brain damage resulted in cerebral palsy, that mum tells the story.

Like they cried for 24 hours and then were like, okay, what are we gonna do?

How do we give her or me the best life that we can?

And that's, that's kind of the whole attitude.

but I think it's interesting because I love my mom and we have a closeness.

We also have a physical closeness that is very intimate because, you know, she has to help me address or go to the bathroom or do that kind of stuff.

But we're also at the stage where at 25, I'm trying to not rely on my mom so much because most people my age have very different relationships with their mum and mum was always one of those people who was like, if you ever call me your best friend like there's gonna be a problem I'm your mum I'm not here to be your best friend find someone else like you need you need more than one person to fill the role right you can't I can't be a different role I can't be all your You're a multi -purpose person who feels every gap.

You have to be able to go out there and make friends without me.

I'm pretty harsh from you, Mum.

I'm not going to be your best friend.

I need you to confirm that that is indeed what you said, Mum.

There we go. It comes from such a good place.

It does, it does. Yeah, I love it.

He's just like, get yourself together, get out of there and find a friend.

That's amazing. It's funny, just listening to you.

You know, sometimes you'll listen to a podcast or someone chatting, you think, oh, I'm going to be friends with that person and you, and some people just have that personality when you listen to them.

It's like, but everyone thinks I'll be friends with that person.

You, you actually have that, you have that, the way you talk, listening to you.

It's just like, everyone listening to this would be like, oh, I want to be a friend of the big group of people.

Come be friends with me guys.

Well you got three friends in us.

There's some vacancies open.

Good timing. So the movie is out now, Audrey.

Yes. Can you tell us a bit about your character.

I can. So first of all, just generally, Audrey is what I like to call a pitch black dark comedy, because it's about a mother named named Ronnie, who is like a failed soap star.

She was supposed to have this big career and then kids' life got in the way.

So she puts all of her energy and all of her unrealized dreams into her daughter Audrey, who was played brilliantly by Josephine Blasier, and Audrey gets pretty sick of that, climbs up on the roof in protest, falls off the roof, falls into a coma.

her family's lives improve while she is in said coma, and her mother still has her own identity.

And Hugh is looking at me like I am just slapped and across the face.

It's just not what I was expecting.

Yeah, no, it's not.

And I play Nora, who is the 15 year -old.

So it was, it was funny for me to play 15.

I was like, you sure?

And then they're like putting a school uniform on me.

And I'm like, We swore we'd never do this again.

What are we doing? What are we doing?

And she's kind of the forgotten child, like, no one really notices her much.

And she's sarcastic and dry and really witty.

So nothing like me at all.

And she has a passion for fencing.

So I got to learn how to fence at least a little bit.

Which is really, really odd.

I asked a really stupid question.

You were talking about this before.

Yes, yes. Not building fences.

Just wanted to clarify.

That was even more difficult.

So it's at the top of my mind, but yeah.

That would be even more difficult than with the sword.

They're bringing that into the next Olympics.

Actual fence building.

They should. that would be interesting.

When the character was written, she always had cerebral palsy, but they weren't sure who was going to play the character.

So they had her with a different type.

And originally she has like this arch nemesis in the film.

And at one point, she delivers a roundhouse kick to their face.

And I read the script and went, and look guys I consider myself an okay actor but like a roundhouse kick might be a little bit out of the range of possibility like if I can do a roundhouse kick we'll be throwing a party then like the whole the whole universe will know.

Yeah the movie's becoming about a different thing if I was going a roundhouse kick.

So I said, we might need to come up with a different sport.

I was expecting them to go like, oh, basketball or tennis.

I was expecting a very Dylan Orcott -esque thing.

Then the rider, who is a genius comedian, came back and said, so you're going to do fencing?

I went, yeah, give the girl with no motor skills a sword, that should be fine.

Like please don't make it sharp.

Oh dear God, someone's going to die.

We also have to ask you about actually being the first person disability to play a sex scene as well.

Yeah that's a piece of history I thought I'd never own.

Sorry mum and dad. How did that, how did that, like what was the first conversation where?

So I was only supposed to be going to Lake Cummers to help.

this is the show that you do.

Yeah, to help them out with a read, so what they did way before production started is they got all these actors who weren't tied to it, just come into a room and read the dialogue and stuff out loud so that the writers could work out if it actually felt like stuff people would say and if jokes were landing and if anything felt weird or uncomfortable or didn't land the way they wanted it to.

and I had a really great time.

Like, remember, I was a drama kid, so this was like, excellent for me.

And then the director and the head of casting kind of came over and they kind of looked at me and went, so you're auditioning for the show?

And they phrased it as a statement, not a question.

And I went, I am? They went, yep, because you can act.

And I went, I can? Like, there's a big difference between NIDA holiday camps and national television.

Are you short? Like The Imposter Syndrome was like, are you really sure about this?

And they're like, yeah, so we're expecting to see your audition tape.

And I was like, great, great, cool.

Oh good. Just one question.

How do you do an audition tape?

And they were like, oh.

And I was like, yeah, this is the level of green that you're dealing with, guys.

Like, I got nothing.

And then I auditioned, and I was like, ah, that went well.

And then I got down to like the final two or whatever.

And I panicked because some of the stuff that the show confronts, including the sex scene, felt like it was gonna cut too close to home.

I was like, I can't play pretend with this.

It's like this is how I really feel about myself.

Like what am I, what am I doing opening this Pandora's box?

And like, I haven't done this stuff in real life yet.

Um, do I really want to do it for the first time playing pretend with a camera, like right there.

Like I, I don't think this is gonna work.

And so I rang the director to pull out, um, to just say, look, I'm just going to excuse myself from the audition process.

She was just like, you can pick whoever else because I'm not up for it.

And she didn't know me all that well at the time.

And she said, that's a shame because we were gonna pick you and I went, dang it.

Because now I was like, well, if I'm sitting on this at home watching this show, all I'm gonna be thinking is that could have been me.

um, if I was, if I was brave enough and I wasn't brave enough.

So you still, you saw it as bravery.

That was the. Yeah.

Like, don't be such a chicken.

How hard, how hard can it be?

Was kind of my, my thinking.

And she was like, look, do the chemistry test with the guy who we think is going to play the romantic lead.

And if after that, you still I'm sure then, then you can pull out.

Cheeky. She knew, she knew, so we, we had to do a chemistry test via zoom because it was pandemic times, doing a chemistry test via Zoom is very odd, because you're just there on screen.

And we were in different states.

And at one point, both of us kind of looked up and the director and the casting director were crying and we're like, oh, um, I think this might be kind of working so.

Tears or bad tears?

We're like, are we that bad?

Are you telling us we have chemistry?

Like what's going on?

And then they're like, yeah, it's gonna be you guys.

And then it was like, oh, let's do this.

I'm gonna do the sex scene.

And they have this wonderful thing now on film sets called intimacy coordinators, which I can't believe they didn't have at one point.

So basically an intimacy coordinator is almost like a choreographer for an intimate scene.

And it doesn't have to be a sex scene.

It can be any sort of emotionally vulnerable scene or physically vulnerable scene but basically what you do is you like choreograph what you're going to do.

So you do all these consent exercises first to be like, hey, is it okay if I touch you here and then if they say yes you can put your hands there or like you work out if there's any areas that someone doesn't want to be touched or anything that they don't want to show or whatever it might be.

And then, yeah, you choreograph it out.

And I'm lucky that I had the best scene partner and we got on like a house on fire and we're able to be like, this is a big moment.

Like, yes, it's about us.

And yes, this is terrifying, but also this, this is the first time that a lot of people are about to see them self represented on screen.

So we want to make sure we do it the best we can.

And it also was important to me then that it wasn't just implied for my comfort, but that you actually saw what was happening.

Because I was like, no, people need to see that disabled people can have relationships and want intimacy and sex and all of those things.

And it was one of those out of body experiences.

And I think I got to see it a few days before the premiere, they showed me that scene specifically, and I was like, oh, that's something I can't take back.

Okay. That's done now.

That's out there, and for me, love and relationships is a complicated minefield.

We were talking about self -worth before.

If you want to pinpoint an area where I don't feel like I have a lot of prospects or worth in any sort of space, romantically is a big one which is as hopeless, romantic as a storyteller, as a diehard fan of Taylor Swift.

it's very difficult because that's what you want, right?

And like, I haven't had any luck in that area, not for lack of trying, but we'll save those stories for another day.

But I think it's also really hard because the assumption from a lot of people is that the only people available to me as potential partners are the disabled people.

Yeah. and I always get really peeved at that because I'm like but why.

And they're like well because it's easier and I'm like, easier for who?

Easier for me? easier for them or easier for the invisible like able -bodied person who then doesn't have to date me.

Who is it easier for?

Because for me, I mean, and I don't know, and maybe I will come to change my mind on this.

Never say never, but for me, I don't really want a disabled partner.

I don't want a partner who struggles with the same things I do.

Like it's not conducive to like the way that I feel partners should compliment each other if we both can't get out of bed.

it. Or if we both like if you're thinking much bigger picture.

If we both can't teach a kid to kick our soccer ball.

Like you need someone who's going to be able to fill in the gaps and then I fill in their gaps.

That's kind of how it works in my head.

But yes. It's very strange.

I think another thing and I'm still I'm still working this out and I'm sure there will be people who disagree with me but I think even though it's really hard for every disabled person, it's going to be easier, just ever so slightly, if you're a straight disabled man.

Because women and girls are more likely to be socially conditioned to accept taking care of you.

Interesting. And accept like the load of like, oh, that's okay that you can't help around the house.

like I'll cook, I'll clean, I'll do, I'll do all the things.

Whereas as a straight disabled woman that takes a lot from a male ego and so far in my travels, whether attracted to them or not, I haven't met many men or boys who I think could do that.

Yeah. That must be really hard.

Yeah. So maybe I'm just I mean, I hope not, but it's one...

I know, but it's one of my biggest fears that like, I'm going to be alone forever.

And like, I'm not actually worthy of all that.

No one's going to choose me.

It kind of feels like a, like when you're a kid and like you all line up and then two people have to pick you for sports teams.

Like clearly, I'm not going to be the choice with all these other people in front of me who are going to make it easier.

Yeah. I mean, it's so hard.

It's hard with that, with Self Worth.

I find that really hard because there's so many things that have already happened.

To speak from my own point of view, it's like there are so many things that have happened to me that I would have sworn would never have happened.

Because you can't imagine it.

And I, just the way you've spoken today and how you felt about yourself and your prospects expects as a teenager growing up, the things that have happened to you, you probably would never have thought.

Absolutely not. I think if I could show the 17 -year -old in me, who was having a mental breakdown and who like wrote down things that she would say if she wasn't here anymore.

If I could turn her around and be like, look at all this, she'd be quite blown away by because there's no way that she'd be able to comprehend it.

That was her. Extending that out, I would say the 33 year old version of you will be doing the same thing, saying 25 year old Hannah will not believe this.

And I would be more explicit about it.

I'd put, what Ryan I think was going towards, is that I'd put love and a partner in that bucket, something that, who knows.

But I'm sure one day, you'll look back and, you're like, oh, you didn't know it was coming.

You didn't know about Brad.

Brad, cool. Um, and in her and sort of in a weird way, it's kind of the they're in lies, the romance of it as well.

Yeah. Yeah. How awesome will it be?

If it's Brad? I know.

Although maybe we could record a few names.

True. And then when it happens, we'll come back and change the name to look more.

Chris, Stewie. Michaelangelo.

Any names you'd like us to put in there?

No. And I'm going to keep quote on that one to just write and do all the, do all the work.

But I can't help but imagine if you did, met a guy called Brad and you're like, Oh, this is it.

You're it. You're the one.

Ryan said this. And then I'm going to be like, Ryan, help.

Brad, I kind of did foresee this happening.

He manifested it. So, like, let's go.

Don't embarrass me, Brad.

It is just been, um, what's the word?

The best. The best.

It's just been the best.

It's been such a privilege for us to listen to you speak today.

And thank you for having me.

This is one of my favorite podcasts.

So, I was really, really happy to jump on board.

Well, that means a hell of a lot.

It really does. Thank you for saying that.

You're welcome. You have so many friends.

You've so many friends, honestly.

It's so nice, because I still feel like the kid who had no friends a lot of the time.

So my brain has some catching up to do.

It's like, no, you have friends now.

It's okay. You can breathe.

You can kind of let that little girl go a little bit in the sense that like, we still look after her.

And we still be kind to her, because she's always going to be there.

And she's always going to pop up and be afraid.

It's going to be your first defence mechanism, but she's OK.

Obviously, I have not gone through anything like you went through as a teenager.

You've been through some stuff, Josh, don't minimise what you've been through.

Yeah, but not to...

I mean, I think teenage years are tough for everyone.

Yeah, so if you're a teenager out there listening to this, it does get better.

Absolutely does. Yeah, it definitely does.

I know I didn't believe that and people would try and tell me that when I was a teenager it was like, but it sucks now.

I just wanted to get better now, and I'm like, yeah.

But it will eventually.

High school doesn't last forever.

And all other people who tell you that high school is the best years of your life, I get very worried about them.

I'm like, you peaked at 17?

What's happening? That's so true.

So, but just to say that I feel, I've always felt, and I'm better at it now but for a very long time always felt like these people like me now.

But once they give it a few months, once they get to know me, they'll start to realise, oh yeah.

They're going to be like oh no, he's too much.

Yeah I think the wrong horse knew.

Make no sudden moves because that's what, that's a really, we picked the wrong guy.

You know that's very much how I feel too.

I'm like oh god. odd.

Yeah. So I don't know why I brought that up just to say that, uh, you're not alone in those feelings.

And yeah. I really appreciate that.

Yeah. I'm sure many other people do too.

But yeah, it was beautifully said the way you talked about the little girl to like, yeah, look after her, but she doesn't have to be in control.

Yeah. I've done a really bad job wrapping up the episode.

But I'm so happy I have, because it's just, it's great to speak and I look forward to a friendship in the future.

Yeah, absolutely. You guys are stuck with me now.

Yeah, I wish I had a friend called the Doovanator.

We do. So I'm rut. If I ever get bullied by anyone, I'm putting the Doovanator on.

Don't you make me call the Doovanator because I will.

And I will answer your call anytime.

I need a Doovanator signal to go up to the sky...

It's a floating doobie.

Just in the wind, flapping.

Or just like a pillow suddenly appears in front of me.

Yeah. Ah, Ryan needs me again.

Again? It's been a day.

I was just there. I'm going back again.

Thank you so much, Hannah.

Thanks, Hannah. Thank you for having me guys.

Thanks. Absolute pleasure.

If you enjoyed this episode but want a little bit more, we've got some good news.

We have a brand new show called A Little More Imperfects.

And it's on Patreon.

For a little bit of money, you'll get access to bonus episodes with Hugh, Ryan, and Josh every fortnight.

Early access to live events plus other things we haven't even thought of yet.

Visit Patreon .com, slash, theimperfects.

The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.

The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14

[한나 디비니(Hannah Diviney): 뇌성마비와 함께하는 삶, 그리고 세상의 편견에 맞서다]-[Hannah Diviney - Disabled in an Able-Bodied World]

📋 Summary

한나 디비니가 들려주는 '불완전함'과 성장의 이야기

1. 장애를 대하는 세상의 시선과 '불편한' 책임감

2. 어린 시절의 상처와 '불완전한' 자존감

3. '불완전함'을 받아들이는 법

4. 연대와 희망의 메시지

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript