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Hey, I'm Kwame Christian and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process.
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Hey, everyone, it's Kwame Christian, host of Negotiate Anything, asking you to please do not skip forward because this is not a commercial.
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Grand, thanks for joining us today.
It's great to be here, Kwame.
Thank you for inviting me.
Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you.
So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Sure, I will. So I've been the provost and vice president for Academic Affairs at Mental College, a liberal arts college in Atherton, California, and it has primarily business majors and psychology, it's a great place.
I've been there for the last two plus years.
And you know, we are certainly dealing with all the pandemic issues and going online.
And that's been a big part of what we've been doing there.
Prior to that, I was with your alma mater, the Ohio State University Moritz College of Law, and worked on the project called the divided community project.
And that was really focused on dealing with the polarization that's been going on the country.
As we know, there's an election that's divided the country, we've had the race issue that that has divided the country.
And it was real privilege, honestly, to work with folks that you know, from Ohio State like like Nancy, and Josh Stolberg as well there.
So prior to that, I was at the Department of Justice in the Obama administration, I was confirmed by the Senate to run an agency called the Community Relations Service.
And I'm happy to talk a little bit more about that in a bit.
It was started in 1964.
But its job was to have mediators in race conflicts throughout the country.
And it's been there in 55 plus years, all the way back to Selma, and certainly in my time dealing with Michael Brown, the tragedy there with Trayvon Martin in Sanford, with Freddie Gray in Baltimore.
And of course, in the last few months, we have seen the police issues that have happened and the tragedies have happened with George Floyd, and Breonna Taylor, I'll stop there, I can I can keep going on.
But that I think gives you a sense of that.
I was a law professor at the UC Hastings College of Law, I've been involved in negotiation and mediation for most of my career.
Yeah, this is great.
And of course, you need to let the listeners know about the new book coming out too.
Well, thank you very much for that.
The title of the book is America's Peacemakers, the Community Relations Service and Civil Rights.
And it is about the Community Relations Service about its wonderful mediators who have been involved in disputes from Selma to the Boston Public Schools, to Rodney King to the alien Gonzales case.
And the work when I was director with with Michael Brown and what happened afterwards with the, the shooting at the sacred war in Oak Creek, Wisconsin.
And it's it really I really want to shine a light on these incredible mediators who work in confidentiality, without publicity, but have really helped this country in really challenging times.
Definitely. This is great.
And thank you for writing the book.
And thank you for your service to the country and in what you're doing.
It's, it's incredibly important.
And then I think for this presentation, well, this podcast, I think the the two things that I want to focus on today are first how mediation has helped over the course of American history, again, in ways that we probably haven't even recognized.
And then also for people who want to be involved in community real mediation, or see opportunities for racial reconciliation or community building through mediation.
Let's talk about some best practices there.
So when it comes to mediation in history, where should we even start?
So I'll start with this.
The community relations service, it was really pushed by President Lyndon Baines Johnson.
It weren't for him, it wouldn't have existed.
And if we may remember the I'll just start what led to the creation was the Birmingham boycott.
In 1963. We remember the photos of Bull Connor and of the you know, the the dogs and with the young African Americans there.
But you know what we don't quite always remember about that it was really a boycott and about a black business boycott, basically saying, we're not going to serve segregated businesses unless you unless you desegregate Birmingham.
And these civil rights, Assistant Attorney General that point, Burke Marshall spent a lot of time mediating between the civil rights protesters in that situation, and the mayor at that time.
And so going forward, when we were thinking about the 1964 Civil Rights Act, there was a concern of all this desegregation happening and how they would take up too many lawyers to go out there and too many and they wanted mediators to be helpful.
Burke Marshall said, Oh, it's this is too hard.
I can't be I'm a civil rights attorney.
I need other people to go out and mediate because this is too hard.
It takes up too much time.
So that's how it gets created.
So that's the it starts from successful mediation, but the recognition of how hard it was to do this.
I'll start with what this one situation in Selma, we remember when john Lewis, the former congressman who passed who passed away recently, the great john Lewis, and Bloody Sunday, where a numerous amount of protesters, civil rights protesters, blacks were beaten up by the Alabama state troopers.
LBJ was concerned that there's gonna be more violence sent this agency, the community relations service out there.
And the first director of the agency was a man named LeRoy Collins, a white governor from Florida, former governor from Florida.
And he worked hard, especially with Andrew Young, who later became a congressman and a mayor and a United Nations ambassador to work with them.
If if what we often remember is the movie in Selma, and certainly for those who know the history, where Martin Luther King leads his congregation leads the people across the Pettis Bridge in Selma.
And at that point, there's a fear of facing the Alabama state troopers.
LeRoy Collins and other mediators worked out a resolution to keep it safe.
And that was part of the story that then it helps keep keep them safe.
But it also then helps move it toward those a voting rights situation to the to the important legislation of the 1965 voting rights legislation that then gets passed because of the protests that happened in Selma over over voting rights.
And of course, voting rights are still a huge issue today, for blacks and for many other people as we face it in the election in six days.
So that's another example.
I could so then from there, there are many situations where the CRS has gone to wounded knee.
When the American Indian movement took over there to the alien Gonzales case, ultimately, that was a situation where he was taken from his Florida family.
But what really helped was there was a serious attempt by CRS mediators, including a man named Thomas battles, who works also with the divide community project today to reduce the possibility of violence, there was a lot of tension in Florida at that time.
And there was a really valiant effort in that situation.
Fast forward to to to when I was director in Sanford, Florida after after Trayvon Martin was killed as we remember as he was going home after going to from 711 and was accosted by a wannabe neighborhood watch guy named George Zimmerman.
And, and there were protests in Sanford, community relations has made a huge difference, you know, in helping the protesters protest safely, and, and making their protests against the stand your ground law, which was which was a big deal in that situation.
And working with the protest groups working with Al Sharpton and the National Action Network working with Jesse Jackson, and working with the the mayor, the city manager to keep it safe working with black and white pastors to to reduce rumors and to help them help them heal as well.
And to this day, the the mayor and many others credit the CRS with keeping the protests safe, allowing them to express their First Amendment free speech right.
But it was a situation where there were many, or I think over 80 protests, but not a single bottle was thrown.
And not a single arrest was made, partly because different from some of the other situations, the the protesters worked well, you know, they weren't I should say more, they worked with with the city to allow peaceful protests to happen.
So that's a lot Kwame.
But that gives you just a sense of the breadth and the scope over time.
It's, it is, I think, we forget.
And can help the what social justice is about to, to, that there is a moral arc, and that it does bend toward justice.
And the, the purpose of here in the media is created by the 1964 Civil Rights Act, it's to accomplish those goals, it's to help move it in a way that that we that we believe is right for our country.
This is great. And and again, for even for me, somebody who is a practitioner, somebody who graduated from from Ohio State's law school and everything, I was completely unaware of the storied history of mediation in maintaining peace and community.
So this is fascinating for me too.
And I think what we could do at this point is blend the history with just the skill set in terms of what we need to do in order to be effective at this point.
And for me, as a mediator, one of the things that's interesting is that when it comes to mediation, we have to have parties who are interested in the process, we have to have parties who are bought in, and they're going to go into this process and give it a good faith effort.
And at times, the only thing bringing people to the table in the mediations that I did were was the fact that they were compelled by the court, they had no choice.
And so they had to show up.
And what's interesting here is that in these really tense situations, you're still able to get people to the table and engage in this process.
So for you, what are the things that actually incentivize people to come to the table?
That's a terrific question for me.
I think it has to do with the fact that there is some need to resolve a situation, right?
And ideally, you can figure a way to do it early on.
And as you know, it doesn't always work that way.
In court mandated mediations, because things have gotten so bad that they are forced to come to the table.
Nancy Rogers and Josh Goldberg at the Ohio State University, I think are good examples of how to help people think before things get bad, to help people understand what are we trying to achieve here, right?
In a community conflict, people want change, right?
Maybe it's change to a use of force policy, maybe it's change.
And how do we have more sort of accountability, citizen review boards in these situations?
And it's doing so because people care about their local community.
I think that matters because it's about, it's about we want what's best, we want this community to move forward in difficult situations.
It was true in in Birmingham, there was so much pressure being put on the white businesses, they weren't getting they were being boycotted by black customers, it got to the point where they there was a need to come to the table here.
And it's trying to identify that need and trying to see what the common sometimes the common goal is, in these Yeah, that makes sense.
And one of the things that's interesting too, is that when we think about the civil rights movement of the past, it seemed as though there was more clear leadership, you could look back and it seemed as though there were people who were we're rallying people together consistently.
And we could say, hey, you're the leader, let's bring you to the table.
Let's discuss. Today, it seems as though these, these movements in various communities are very flat, in that it might be difficult to determine who in particular is the leader.
So for you and your position, how do you determine getting the right representatives to the table?
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Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question.
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That is especially true in community conflict, right?
Because it may change over time too, who's actually at the table who wants to be at the table, there's a lot of churn in these situations.
I think it's about the local aspect of this, right?
If it's a concern about what's going on in a specific city, let's say it's a police department, there are people who've been in that community for a long time, right?
And who care and who have shown that they are engaged in making a difference in reducing the amount of tragedies that happen of, of preventing horrible outcomes of a police officer shooting someone who's often black or brown in those situations.
So I think what goes to that is who's been working on the issue, who has been trying to make a difference, bringing people who, who yes, who are knowledgeable about the issue, and who are willing to put in the time and commitment, because it doesn't change overnight.
There are so many variables and so many factors.
And unfortunately, there are some systemic issues, right?
We know this, that has to be to be worked through in order to get there.
So it is about finding the people who, who are committed to the issue, who have, who have history in working on the issue and who are committed to, to figuring out solutions within that community.
Yeah, that makes sense.
And again, we understand this whole thing is challenging.
So this might, this question might be a little bit too broad, but we'll see where it goes.
What are the biggest challenges you faced in trying to go through these processes?
Yeah, you know, I talked a bit about the, the high profile situations, right?
Sometimes, if it's too high profile, and there's too much enmity, or too much emotion, that makes it hard, right?
That because there's two there, the walls have gone up.
I didn't mention the situations where people are able to sit down and figure things out that, that makes it a bit easier, right?
When there's, when it's away from the spotlight, and when people who care about the issue can, can, can work with each other.
I certainly remember a situation, a similar substitution where there was mistreatment of some of a suspect in a situation, there was a black civil rights organization involved.
But because they were able to, to do so away from the media, they were able to create a situation where more accountability was agreed upon, where there was more transparency provided as to what gets reported to the community, as to when citizens can, can be more engaged here.
So I think that you know, that's one thing that makes it so it's it's certainly, I would certainly say, if it comes to a situation where the major stakeholders show commitment, and are willing to sit on the table and are willing to sit down and willing to share the power at a certain level, and not hide
behind or use a wall of the blue, what we call the blue wall, sometimes for police or in that situation.
But I think that that's a that's a factor that helps move people in that positive way.
I'll certainly say it's been the news so much, it creates more leverage for community to negotiate and to demand more.
And I think it forces those empowered to listen more and to actually agree to more.
And that I think that's a good thing for society.
Yeah, and one of the things that's interesting here is that in order to be a good mediator, you have to be that neutral third party.
And now with some of these situations that are very emotionally charged, how are you able to number one maintain that neutrality and number two, convince the parties that you are in fact neutral through the process?
Yeah. And sometimes I like to use the word being impartial and being fair, and being un you know, unbiased in a certain way, because neutral doesn't mean you don't have an opinion.
But you're you want to be seen with credibility by both parties.
And as you know, comment being a mediator.
If parties are opposed to each other, it's really helpful to have somebody there who doesn't have the responsibility of advocating for that side that you're there to help move those parties forward.
I think there's sometimes you may have seen it.
There's a magic that can happen.
But because you don't have that responsibility, you're there to help them get towards that better better place.
And, and for at least for many of the CRS mediators for many people, it's often because they have a positive reputation with the parties, both sides is in these in the situations I'm talking about, where it could be a governmental entity and a civil rights entity, they may not trust each other.
But if they trust you, if you can establish that trust, because you've worked in similar situations, or you, you've known the parties, you have a track record with them, that really, that really helps establish that mediator role, that impartial role that you're there to help them.
And you know, I know you have a lot of folks who who are business negotiators, or, or working teams, we know that there's a benefit to having a facilitator in the room, when there's differences of what the strategy should be of the team, or when they need to get to an agreement.
That's the benefit of a third party more more, more generally speaking.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And with this question, this is a little bit off of what you've done in the past, I want to get your thoughts on this idea.
This is something that I've been thinking about recently, as I've recognized, especially in Congress, there's a lot of partisanship more so than than ever before.
And every year, it gets a little bit worse.
And one of the things that we've noticed in studies of negotiation is that the more public the negotiation, the more positional the negotiators become, right?
And I think about it in litigation, a lot of times, the reason why we're here is because they can't settle because they hate each other.
They can't talk to each other.
So hey, maybe we can throw a mediator in there to try to get things done.
And then the other thing is, if they're not taking a settlement, negotiation, they are made private, because again, it makes people more likely to come to an agreement.
Now, the reason I bring this up is I think about it on the political level.
What value do you think there could be in potentially a federal Department of dispute resolution, where let's say, the Democrats and Republicans cannot come together on a critical issue, and they're afraid to compromise in public.
And so then they come together and there's a team of government sanctioned mediators that can help them broker a deal.
What do you think about that?
I think that's terrific, right?
I'm not going to argue with that, Kwame.
As a mediator, there are, and to be clear, as a person who was a federal mediator, there are places that do it right now.
There's the Federal Mediation and Reciliation Service, which FMCS, which has been doing labor management mediations, and also does things there as well.
And so there are folks within the government.
Now, it's a different story as to between congressional members as well.
I remember in 2018, Susan Collins, who was the Republican Senator from Maine, tried to basically play that role, because again, she's one of these old New England Republicans, right?
And so to prevent a government shutdown, she actually used a talking stick, I don't know you remember this, where she had a bunch of Sanders and the only person who could talk was the person who had this stick.
It did get thrown at one point and broke like a glass of blood.
But she played that role at a certain level, and she said my role was a mediator.
So why wouldn't it be helpful?
We know it's so hard and you get at it.
These congressional members, if you're a Republican, your competition is not the Democrat often, it's often the more extreme right candidate that comes forward.
The same is true for a lot of these districts because they've been gerrymandered.
So their audience is often, they spend more time talking to the cable news networks than they will with the their colleagues on the other side, because that's who they're going to.
So there are a lot of pressures that prevent them from coming to an agreement.
So anything we can do to have a third party there, I think it's a good idea.
Okay, good. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy.
Maybe maybe that's the next push we can make.
But I really appreciate you taking the time to walk us through this.
This is really fascinating.
And again, like I said, even for me, somebody who's in the field, I did not realize the extent to which mediation has been shaping our community and in deeply meaningful ways.
And before we go, I want to get an idea from you on what your perspective is on the future of mediation when it comes to resolving these conflicts.
What is the next step?
How can we take things to the next level and make things better?
That's a, I think, an important question to to end upon here.
We see the polarization in this country.
We have this election that's going to happen in six days.
As a country, I think we need to do more healing.
We need to do more reconciliation.
We need to figure out a way forward.
And I think that's where mediators are going to play a hugely important role after the election.
How do we work out issues with many things, right?
Not just law enforcement and and community, but there are many issues, affirmative affirmative action.
There are issues of how do we how do we create our budgets even, right?
If there's going to be this partisan divide that exists here, how do we deal with the recognition of all the all the past wrongs that we've had?
I think that's where place we're restorative justice, for example, or mediators often play a role.
So I'm hopeful for and this is true both for the community relations service, but this is for mediators.
More generally, there are wonderful community mediation groups that play a role.
Many cities have centers that do community mediation, as well.
And I think that's the important role is the how to help create a more constructive and positive dialogue amongst people who may disagree.
How do we help train people to have dialogues with people that disagree with them and yet maintain our moral values?
And yet, and how do we hold another person's belief that may be very contrary to ours without judging them?
And how do we just how can we increase the understanding even I think it's going to be an important role going forward.
I agree. Well, thank you so so much for this.
And before you go one last thing, make sure you remind the listeners about the book and where to get it.
America's peacemakers, the community relations service and civil rights.
And I want to say one thing.
It's the original book was written by Bertram Levine, who was a long time CRS director, CRS associate director.
And he passed away a few years ago, I spoke with his children, and they gave me the permission to write a second edition to cover the last 25 years.
I'm very appreciative to the Levine family, go to the University of Missouri Press to purchase to purchase it.
And by the way, if you write piece 40 when you when you when you check the book out when you when you when you go to that website, you'll get 40 % discount, so piece p a c e 40 to get a 40 % discount on the book.
Fantastic, thank you.
I appreciate it. And we're looking forward to having you on the next time, grand.
Thank you very much for me.
It was it was real pleasure and privilege to to be with you today.
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