Every little thing you think that you need Every little thing you think that you need every little thing that's just feeding your greed oh i bet that you'd be fine without it yes hello everybody welcome to the minimalist podcast where we discuss what it means to live a meaningful life with less my name is joshua fields milburn and joining me here at earthing studios in west hollywood california is my good friend tk coleman in the building tk is going to to be a good talk today because coming up on this free public minimal episode, a caller has a question about the best ways to communicate with people
who are unwilling to change their mind.
And then we've got a question about what makes a conversation productive?
That's followed by our right here, right now segment and a listener tip.
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Let's start with our callers.
if you have a question or comment for our show, we'd love to hear from you.
Our phone number is 406 -219 -7839, or you can email a voice recording to podcast at theminimalists .com.
Our first question today is from Andy.
Hey, Minimalists, this is Andy from West Palm, and I'm a Patreon subscriber.
I'm curious to hear you discuss how you have conversations when facts don't seem to matter as much as ideals and beliefs.
also why should you continue to communicate when it seems to be that neither side is interested in the possibility of changing their mind thanks very much tk i have so much to say about this you and i have some of the most amazing conversations but i think it's because we are both willing to change our minds it doesn't mean that we change our minds all the time or that our Our minds are so open that they just fall out and we're just accepting whatever someone says who's in front of us.
Right. And yet the heart of this question here is like, hey, how can I have a good conversation with someone who isn't interested in changing their mind?
I think about this Navajo proverb that I wrote down here.
It's easiest to ride a horse in the direction it's going.
Now, it's great to have a conversation with someone and they change their mind or I change my mind.
But then trying to convince someone to change their mind is a little bit different.
Because if I want to love someone, I don't want to convince them of anything.
In fact, I think quite often that to convince someone is to unlove them in some way.
So where do we start with Andy's question here?
because you're so great at having conversations and I enjoy the conversations we have and you've changed my mind about a lot of things, but I never feel like you go into the conversation explicitly trying to twist my mind to receive your point of view.
Yeah, I think there is a paradox of self -interest that's at play when you approach a conversation with curiosity.
On one end, you're thinking about yourself and what you can get out of the conversation.
This is an opportunity for me to learn, for me to refine my understanding, for me to test my ideas, for me to even, you know, see what my thoughts look like in contrast with another person's reactions, questions, concerns, objections, and so on.
And so it may very well be the case that a conversation with someone who refuses to change their mind can be incredibly fun and incredibly valued to me, depending on the attitude I go into it with.
I do want to say this.
I think open -mindedness is relative.
I rarely find a person who is completely closed -minded, unwilling to learn and refuses to be open on everything.
I find that people have different topics about which they're more inclined to be open -minded and other topics about which they're more inclined to be closed.
You may talk to some people and if you're talking about their concept of relationships or love, they may be incredibly open -minded.
But then if you shift it to religion or politics, they may shut down and be like, I don't want to talk about that.
And that could be the result of maybe some trauma they experienced, or maybe some negative experiences they've had with other people, some mistrust. This might just be really personal for them.
They might be afraid that you're going to try to change them.
And so I think it's important to be open to the possibility that people may be more open than they seem.
And you can sometimes test this out by asking yourself, can I shift the conversation to a different topic, to a different theme, or to a different aspect of the same thing and maybe get a different response?
I often think about a conversation about what is the outcome for this conversation?
Sometimes there's an explicit outcome.
If I'm talking to a movie studio about buying a documentary that we are working on, I have a specific outcome in mind.
And that conversation is geared toward trying to show them the value of what I want to sell to them.
However, I think maybe the purest form of conversation is one that doesn't have a specific outcome.
I think that's maybe that's why I enjoy our conversations.
I never feel like there is an end goal that we're working toward. The conversation itself is the journey, is the dance.
It's like an actual dance.
When you think about dancing and the point of the dance isn't to have a particular outcome.
come. It is to dance together.
And I find that one of the purest forms of conversation is the sort of intellectual dance of, huh, let me understand your point of view.
Let me try to understand where you're coming from.
And maybe that changes my mind, or maybe it also solidifies my worldview, solidifies my opinion or belief.
But as Andy says here, quite often we're tied to an ideology or a dogma or a belief that isn't going to change.
And if you want to change that, you're going to be spinning your wheels with someone.
But if the point of the conversation is to delight yourself and to delight the other person, then maybe it's a little bit different than trying to simply change their mind.
That's exactly right.
When you talked about the pre -programmed, pre -planned conversation where we have this specified outcome, I can tell you there are some interviews I've watched where you can tell the outcome, you know, is somewhat specific and it kind of works out anyway.
Hey, we're sitting down with Don Cheadle because we want to know what he thinks about success.
Okay. That seems to work quite well, but I've never seen it work when the specified outcome is I've got to get this person to convert to my philosophy.
That just hardly ever works because that dominates the tone and the energy of the conversation that almost magically creates the opposite of what you're going after.
And so I think there's such a thing as succeeding by lowering your expectations.
If you're talking to someone, maybe you could say, hey, I don't have to get this person to change their mind, but it might be a net good in the universe if I could make it a goal that everyone I talk to, I challenge them to think about things differently than what they might might get from an ordinary conversation and that can be good enough to just sow a seed of thought or to present a question to them that they're not likely to encounter in their everyday conversations and maybe you make them a better thinker.
That's a really awesome thing.
I think another point is that sometimes people don't owe us the openness to change their mind on some things.
Perhaps it is virtuous when it comes to some topics that we all demonstrate a willingness to entertain the opposite, but it is also the case that there may be certain matters that truly are subjective, where you have the right to decide what you want, just based on what feels good or seems good to you.
And you don't owe it to me to give me an explanation, a justification, or a change your mind.
And you actually have the right to say, no, I know what I want to do.
And this is the game plan.
This is the strategy.
This is, this is the agenda.
And you don't owe it to me to be, well, listen to my counter argument.
So sometimes people could be reacting to us and an assumption that we're making or an attitude that we're bringing to the conversation.
And sometimes when we go into the conversation, there isn't a specific outcome in mind.
The outcome that we want is connection with someone else.
And a great way to disconnect from someone is to be self -righteous about your own point of view, right?
Here's how you should believe.
Here's how you should think.
Here's how how you should be in the world.
Because now I'm holding on to my own self -righteousness, and that disconnects us from the conversation.
What does it do? It escalates, it increases arguments, it can make the other person upset.
Now you are upset, and you continue to escalate there.
And so if the point of a conversation is connection, anything that disconnects you from that other person, even though it feels good in the moment, God, it feels so good to be be right, right?
There's this old epithelm that you can be in love or you can be right to choose one.
And I think the truth that is behind that is ultimately when I am always going into a conversation with the desire to prove someone else wrong, I'm going to lose that precious connection, the very thing that I wanted out of the conversation.
Yeah. You know, one way you can achieve that connection is you can transform another person's stubbornness into an object of curiosity.
So if someone just says, I don't want to talk about that, or I'm not going to debate that, or I don't want to hear an opposing view, you can say, hey, I honor that.
And I'm not going to debate you or offer any counterpoints to anything that you said, because I want to respect that.
But I am curious, have you always been like that with these conversations?
Was there ever a a time where you were open to it?
Or is this something that you've always been close to?
Well, no, I've learned, man.
I've learned the hard way that nobody really listens.
They just want to know what you think so that they can debate you.
Yeah, that makes sense.
I actually agree with that.
I think there are a lot of people that are like that.
And that frustrates me too.
Do you feel like you've ever had any conversations on this topic that have been productive?
Or when you look out in the world, maybe in media, do you see anyone who is having these conversations in the right way.
And now you're still connecting with this person.
You're learning about them, but you're still honoring their desire to not debate you over this difference that they've decided they're not going to change their mind on.
And that brings me back to the Navajo proverb that we talked about a moment ago.
It's easiest to ride a horse in the direction it is going.
There's a direction that someone's going in a conversation, right?
And you You can meet them where they are.
You can see their opinions and viewpoints.
You don't necessarily have to batter them with yours.
And TK, you do an exceptional job with this.
I know that you may have your own personal beliefs about things, but you try not to constantly interject an opinion into every single conversation.
Where does that come from for you?
I don't want to waste my time.
And I know that if I inject an opinion, it's highly likely that I will have wasted my time.
I think the most important response to anything that anybody says is not I agree or I disagree, but what do you mean by that?
And what does that look like in experience for you?
And this happens so much. I mean, someone could say something like, imagine a billionaire says, you know what, guys, money really doesn't matter.
And you could say, oh, I disagree.
You know, and it's easy for you to say because you're a billionaire.
And look at all the schools that money has paid for.
Look at all the people that money has helped.
You're wrong, sir. Money doesn't matter.
Or we could just be like, what do you mean?
And it may turn out that perhaps he is using words in an unorthodox manner.
Perhaps he is framing in a way that's different from us.
But maybe he agrees with everything that I just said about money mattering.
And maybe all he means is there are some really important things in life, like love and relationships, that money just can't buy you.
And that's all he means.
And based on what he means, he's absolutely right.
And if he meant something else, then perhaps he'd be wrong.
But you see how easy it is to be wrong when we just sort of like impose our understandings and expectations on people.
And it's not so much that I'm afraid of being wrong, but I'm afraid of wasting time.
And I just have a lot of experience at agreeing and disagreeing and being flat out wrong at what the person even meant by what they said.
And what's fascinating about that is by being open and curious about it, you can find the profound truth that's going on behind the semantics.
Semantics just means the meaning of the words, right?
And so you could say money doesn't matter.
And I could say money does matter.
And we might mean the same exact thing, but we have to get to a deeper understanding behind those words.
You know how you don't get there?
By disconnecting, by arguing, by shunning the other person, by trying to prove them wrong, which gets back to the essence of Andy's question here.
If someone isn't interested in changing their mind, can you still have a good conversation with them?
Yeah, absolutely. What is your outcome?
Do you want to dance with them or do you want to change their mind?
mind. Now, if they're constantly trying to change your mind and it just feels like you are wasting your time, it's okay to disconnect from them as well.
Not all disconnection is bad.
And by the way, not every disconnection requires a reconnection.
If you feel disconnected from the conversation because something someone said, or they're trying to argue, or they're being self -righteous, or you were being self -righteous and you had to remove yourself from the conversation, you don't have to step back into it.
Realizing you're not obligated to prove yourself self right.
You're not obligated to explain yourself.
That is not the heart of a productive conversation.
Andy, before we go, I'd love to send you a copy of The Minimalist's third book.
It's called Essential.
It's 150 essays from The Minimalist's 12 different chapters.
You might even call it the best of The Minimalist's 12 areas of intentional living, three of which are mindfulness and priorities and relationships.
All three of those will help you foster more meaningful conversations with your friends and loved ones without having to be self -righteous or argue your way into their point of view or try to hand them, force feed them your point of view.
So if you want the e -book or the audio book or the book book version of Essential, we'll be happy to send that to you.
All right, before we get back to our callers, it is time for the lightning round where we answer the Patreon community chats question of the week.
This is where we attempt attempt to answer questions with a short, shareable Minimal Maxim.
You can find this episode's maxims in the show notes at theminimalists .com and every Minimal Maxim ever at minimalmaxims .com.
We'll also deliver our weekly show notes directly to your inbox, including seven new maxims every week for free.
If you sign up for our email newsletter at theminimalists .com, we'll never send you spam or junk or ads, but we will start your week off with a dose of simplicity.
Now, speaking of ads, TK, on page three last week, we had a whole conversation.
And you asked me a question about like, is there an ad you'd be willing to do?
And you tried to pull it out of me and convince me.
No, you weren't trying to convince me at all.
It was a sincere question.
And we had a great conversation around that.
But I changed the question this week.
On page three, I want to talk to you about, is there any ad that I would actually be excited about doing?
And I think the answer will surprise you.
Don't worry, I'm not bringing any ads to the podcast, but I wanted to change the question because I wanted to get a different answer from what we came up with last week.
I really enjoyed the conversation we had about that on page three last week, but I think it's going to be a totally different conversation this week on page three.
But before that, the question of the week this week is, is what makes a conversation productive?
What makes a conversation productive?
Now, before we get to our pithy answers, TK, we'll get philosophical here in a moment.
Let's get practical.
Let's see what some of our listeners had to say.
Allie said a conversation is productive when the people involved find value in it.
Now, TK, Allie is making a lot of sense to me here.
Like if the people involved find value in it, then it certainly seems like it'd be a productive conversation to me.
But now I'm wondering, is it possible to have a productive conversation if the other party doesn't find value in it?
It's definitely possible.
I agree that a conversation is most productive when both find value in it, but it's possible.
I mean, you know, since value is subjective, one person can enjoy it and say this was very helpful to me and the other can walk away feeling like, ah, I think I wasted my time.
It's possible for either party to fill that.
In many cases, when that happens, it's because conversation isn't really occurring.
It's more of a monologue.
But it is possible in theory.
So I'm wondering here because, yeah, it is possible, but maybe also value is in the rear view.
Like that conversation did not feel very valuable to me at all in the moment.
In fact, I just didn't feel like it was productive.
But I look in the rear view and like, oh, wow, I learned so much from that.
that. And in the moment, I felt insecure or I felt off -put by what the other person was saying, but maybe I learned something from it.
And so maybe that coal eventually turned into a diamond as enough time progressed.
That's right. And we all can look back on conversations like that, where we say, I didn't like it at the time, but it really benefited me.
There's a difference between what's useful and what I value in the moment.
You can put a hammer on this table.
It's useful, but I don't value it right now.
But at some point, I might need it.
That's right. Nevi said, a productive conversation involves being intentional and listening actively to the person in front of you.
The most frustrating conversations I've had are the ones where nothing I say seems to reach the other person.
My top priority is always to try to understand.
And as TK always reminds us, stay curious.
curious. Now, I agree with Nevi here about frustrating conversations.
It is so frustrating when it feels like someone isn't listening to me and I'm just talking.
Then it does feel like a monologue, but a monologue to a brick wall, right?
So what do you do when the person you're having a conversation with doesn't seem to be listening to you?
Well, there are a few tests you can do to see if they at least have that capacity and willingness before you give up, because I do believe there is a point where perhaps you should give up.
I think one thing you could do is you could, you know, if you're asking them about a bunch of things and they just go on monologues and give their opinions and never pass the ball back, so to speak, you can say, well, hold up, before we go on, I want to give you my take on that.
I want to tell you what I think about that.
Now that's not as fun as being asked because you're having to be a little bit assertive, but you're at least giving this person an opportunity to come to awareness and to realize, oh, yeah, I answered the question, but I didn't share it a little bit.
And they might pick up on that cue if you do it two or three times and pause and say, hey, tell me what do you think?
I think there are lots of tests like that.
That's one of my favorite ones.
But hey, look, some people might just be conversation hawks or conversation hoarders, and all they want to do is use you for your set of ears.
And if you pick up on that after running some tests, it may just be best to find other conversational partners.
And it might be another person who they just don't have a conversation at all.
And now you're the conversational terrorist because you're forcing the conversation onto them.
And we've all been in those situations where I don't want to talk right now.
I'd rather be by myself.
But then someone sort of barrels into the room and they force or thrust the conversation onto you.
Do you have a good off ramp for a conversation like that where where you're just in a moment, maybe in another circumstance, you'd love to have a conversation with them.
But in the moment where you're like, you know what, I'd like to not have I hate to interrupt, but this isn't the best time for me to have this conversation.
I would love to hear what you have to say, but I want to listen when I know I can be present.
Yes. Yeah. I want to be able to be the best version of myself for this conversation because otherwise I'd be doing you a disservice.
Sergio said a productive conversation is one where the truth is welcomed without fear.
ear. Ooh, that's a difficult one.
It's not about winning, fixing, or impressing, says Sergio.
It's about revealing.
They create a space for both parties to feel seen, heard, and safe while exploring who they really are, not just who they've been pretending to be.
Now, TK, I love this.
I agree. A conversation feels good when I feel seen and I feel heard and I feel safe.
I feel feel like TK is not trying to win here.
He's not trying to fix me.
And he's also not trying to impress me.
In fact, I'm so impressed by TK and he never tries to impress me.
Isn't that fascinating?
Maybe there's an inverse correlation there, right?
But now, of course, after reading this comment here from Sergio, I'm thinking to myself, is it possible to actually have a productive conversation if I don't feel seen or heard or if I don't feel safe in that conversation?
It is. Now, what Sergio is describing is the conversational dance.
It's a beautiful art form.
And when you're in the midst of it, enjoy it.
And I think everyone should seek it out.
And I think everyone deserves to have many conversations like that in their life.
It's like one of the highest levels of conversation available to us when we hit that groove with someone.
And you found someone really special when you can have those types of discussions.
Yes, it is possible when you feel unsafe or unheard to have a productive conversation, conversation, but you got to be discerning here in terms of your level of tolerance for how unsafe you can feel, because technically we never have 100 % safety, right?
I'm not 100 % safe when I get in my car and drive.
There's a certain level of risk I'm taking with my life.
And so you got to know your risk tolerance.
And I think if you're in a level where of danger, where you feel like, hey, I can't even focus on the conversation or the value, then you got to get out of it.
But sometimes the best insights, the best kinds of growth can come from subjecting yourself to a little bit of discomfort and giving other people some room to disagree with you, to not like what you have to say, to even misunderstand what you have to say and give some pushback so that you have to refine and clarify it.
That can be good for the soul too.
But I do love that dance Sergio was talking about.
And sometimes that pushback does show them that you are listening in a way, especially if it's playful and you do it in a way where you can actually amplify the listening.
You can amplify the feeling safe.
It doesn't mean—feeling safe doesn't mean I agree with every word that you're saying, right?
That's not even a conversation.
That is back to a monologue, or that is just a couple of people uniting around a particular ideology.
And that might make you feel safe, but you're not going to actually feel listened to at all.
You're not going to feel like you're being heard. So you do a good job, TK, of making people feel heard. Is there anything practically you do that makes that possible?
Well, I hope I can do better at that.
I think one thing to do is to ask follow -up questions or to even, when you understand people or think you understand them, to state it back to them and confirm it.
I think there's just a certain measure of beauty in that, a certain measure of validation in that because it's easy to assume you understand.
But when you say it back to a person, I think that really resonates.
Tamara said, my favorite conversations are when you become so completely engaged with each other that you walk away feeling like you've discovered something brand new.
You don't have to totally understand or agree with the other person, but you can walk away appreciating their point of view.
I think that's an important point here is you don't have have to fully understand the other person and you certainly don't have to get the other person to agree with you here.
And it actually reminds me of her response here.
Her comment here reminds me of a conversation that you and I first had when you were converting to Catholicism.
Yeah. I remember my own judgments immediately creeped up to the forefront, but my judgments were based on my own worldview.
And I had some negativity associated with the church. I grew up in a Catholic church. My mom was before me was a nun and she had some harms done to her by the Catholic church. And it wasn't the church. It was about one individual in that church. And then, of course, what did I do?
I assigned that to anyone else who might be in a position of authority, not to all Catholics per se, but to all the so -called authority figures in the church. And you actually, in a way, forced me to get curious.
Not that you tried to get me to get curious, but I'm like, oh, wait a minute, here's someone I love and respect, and he's doing something that doesn't align with what I think he would do.
And so instead of trying to judge you, I set out to understand you.
The minimalists have this acronym, TARA, T -A -R -A, and it's really how to understand someone.
And it starts with tolerating.
That's the opening into a conversation is I'm going to tolerate that other person's worldview.
I don't have to agree with it.
I don't have to understand it.
Now, of course, tolerance is great, but it's not the end all be all.
Tolerance is a great first step toward understanding.
But if you just tolerate someone and their behavior, you actually encourage more of them.
If they start behaving poorly, your tolerance is a sign that they should continue to act that way.
But tolerance is a great first step into understanding someone.
one. And from there we go to the ARA.
So you can get to acceptance.
Like, okay, I accept that that is your worldview.
It doesn't mean I agree with it.
It doesn't mean that I'm endorsing it, but I simply accept that.
And there's a particular freedom in that acceptance.
And then I move on to respecting it.
Like, well, yeah, I respect TK.
I know I respect him.
So I'm going to respect his worldview as well.
Still not necessarily agreeing with it.
Right. But now I'm starting to understand him?
What would it take for me to respect your viewpoint here is a thing that I often ask myself.
And then finally, we get to this, this fourth step and it's way more difficult, but if you ultimately want to understand someone, even if you don't agree with them, you can appreciate their perspective.
You can try to appreciate where they're coming from.
And I think if we go through that, we tolerate, we accept, we respect, and ultimately we appreciate someone someone else, that's how we understand them.
That's exactly right.
I think one of the goals of good conversation and conversational diversity is we want to gradually minimize our tendency to be shocked by other people's differences or their disagreements.
Because your visceral reaction, it could work the same way.
I could say, well, how could he have such a problem with my religious choice?
What business is it of his?
But that would be a deficit in my character.
because I'm now shocked by how someone could disagree with me or be off -put by something that I believe.
But it's good for me to not just expose myself to Catholic spirituality, but for me to also expose myself to people who disagree.
I've watched hours of YouTube videos titled Why I Left the Catholic Church. It is good for me to know this.
It is good for me to be in tune with this.
It is bad for me to be the kind of person who is like, Like, oh, how could you be offended by this?
How could you be uncomfortable?
How could you possibly be worried about me?
How could you possibly be upset at me?
I understand. I get it.
And I think that's the goal for all of us, regardless of what it is we believe.
Because what happens is if we only participate in conversations where we feel comfortable and where we're never challenged, we start to lose our imaginations ability to see how someone could disagree without just choosing to be evil.
Yeah. Yeah. And that that spirit of how could they possibly misunderstand me or even worse, how dare you question me?
Right. That talk about shutting down a conversation, but that also shuts down a relationship to a great extent.
you realize that, oh, by me condemning this other person, I'm seeking to misunderstand them.
I actually don't understand them in a way that I could if I were to simply thoroughly listen, which I can only do that if we're having a, well, a productive conversation.
How about you, listeners?
What makes a conversation productive for you?
Let us know your thoughts in the Patreon community chat, which, by the way, you can join for free, Even if you don't subscribe to our private podcast over there on Patreon, we have a lot of people, thousands of people interacting in the community chat.
We hope to see you over there.
Okay, give me something pithy, TK.
What makes a conversation productive?
What's your pithy answer here?
Charity produces clarity.
Charity is the attribute of being kind, compassionate, gentle towards others, considering them.
And clarity is the quality of having a precise understanding of where they come from.
Sometimes we think of charity as like, hey, just be a nice person and it's a good moral thing.
But actually there's fewer, there's nothing more self -interested.
There's nothing more self -interested than being a charitable person.
You get more of everything that you could want out of a conversation with other people when you are charitable.
Because every time someone speaks, there's something that they do mean and there's something that they don't mean.
And you've got to get clear on both of those things.
And so when people speak and you extend them the charity of saying, hey, what do you mean?
How did you get there?
Why do you believe that you create the foundation for a conversation to go so much further?
I think one of the most important aspects of charity is when people sound like they're wrong or they sound like they contradict themselves, instead of jumping on them and saying, ah, let me bury you or nope, you're wrong.
Nope, you took a misstep.
Gotcha. Gotcha. Instead, you take what appears to be a contradiction, you translate it into a question, and you give it back to them.
And you say, let me tell you how I'm hearing you, and I'm going to repeat it.
And then you tell me if I got it right, or if I got it wrong, you tell me how I got it wrong.
And you'll often find that people who sound like they contradict themselves might just mean something different than what you would have meant.
Now, what is the opposite of that then?
What's the opposite of showing up and being charitable?
comfortable, what muddies the clarity of the conversation?
Being overconfident in your ability to understand people just based on immediate impressions and associations.
So it shows up in the quickness with which we agree or disagree.
Yep, you're totally right.
I agree. Nope, that's wrong.
That's wrong because it contradicts this or that.
Well, more important than if it contradicts this or that is I got to know what's contradicting this or that.
Like, what do you mean by that?
People use words, including very common, obvious words, in multiple different ways.
What do you mean by that?
We have the right to disagree with each other, but we don't have the right to define what the other person means when they say something.
And I think you and I disagree all the time, but I can't think of a single time.
Maybe there's one, but I can't think of it where we got into an actual argument about something.
Disagreeing, we do so in a playful way that often helps us understand, even if it's just helping me understand your position, and it may not help me agree with it anymore, but at least I better understand where we are now without needing to drag you to my point of view, to my self -righteous point of view, by the way.
All right, so I have two pithy answers for you today.
First one is, if you deeply desire to To misunderstand someone, you will find a thousand ways to misinterpret them.
And this is something that I've talked about on the podcast before, but I want to expand on a little bit here where we had this segment because quite often we want to misunderstand someone as opposed to understand them.
And we desire to put them in a particular box.
We desire to outcast them.
There's a tribalist sort of component to this as well, where I need to unite against someone.
one. I need someone to be the avatar for everything that I disagree with about this particular topic.
And so I will find a thousand ways to misinterpret you whenever I really desire to misunderstand someone.
The second maxim that I wrote down here is you can't maintain a campfire with an arsonist. So I thought about this the other day when my wife was talking about someone, this couple who who was arguing and she's like, it felt like there was like, they were like just terrorizing each other.
And she said, well, I got her to explain what she meant.
And one of them said, one of them just felt like they were an arsonist trying to set fire to the conversation.
So that's interesting.
If you have one person who's trying to tend to and maintain a campfire and for warmth and for security and for light, like that is, that is intentional, right?
An arsonist is unintentional.
Remember we had the LA fires here earlier this year and there were reports that people were going around and adding to the natural fires by maybe setting their own fires, right?
And so it's really difficult to maintain a sense of order with someone who just wants to burn everything down.
And in those situations, when we're in a conversation with someone who wants to burn everything down, who wants to prove you wrong, who wants to make you look stupid, And the best thing I can do is remove myself from the presence of that arsonist because, frankly, I don't want to get burned.
I had a buddy respond to someone doing that one time by saying, hey, what do you need from me, man?
You need me to be wrong?
I can be wrong for you.
It changed the complete energy of it.
No, I need you to be wrong without.
And like all of a sudden, it's like, oh, crap, what do I need?
what is my outcome in this conversation oh no my outcome was to prove you wrong because my insecurity needed you to be wrong so that I could be right that's almost the end of page one here we still have an entire switchboard of colors to talk to tk but first real quick for right here right now this is our little segment where we talk about one thing that's going on in the life of the minimalists since we're now a decade into podcasting professor sean who's on the the couch. He just updated our 20 favorite episodes of The Minimalist Podcast. You can explore all of our classic episodes.
We have a decade of archives at this point.
You can explore our top 20 favorite episodes over at theminimalists .com slash classics.
Check out all of those classic episodes at theminimalists .com slash classics.
Also, our next Sunday Symposium is this weekend.
It's on my birthday.
If you want to come out and join me on my birthday here in Los Angeles us sundaysymposium .com is sold out, but we just released the last 50 tickets.
You can find them there at sundaysymposium .com.
We have a beautiful theater right down the street from here.
We'll give a talk. We have a sound bath.
We have some free coffee.
We'll have some conversations together.
And of course, lots of hugs, birthday hugs, even.
All right. Here is a minimalist insight from one of our listeners.
Hi, minimalists. Here is Laura, a patron subscriber, sending this voice note from Germany.
I have a minimalist listener tip that I would like to share with all of you.
It's the rule of, if something is not a hell yes, then I am not taking it.
This really allowed me to say no to a lot of freebies and to move on from those supposed to be dilemmas when purchasing clothes, shoes, or accessories.
Thanks to that, I can stroll around stores with a sentiment of of lightness.
It's like one just starts to spot more museums of things everywhere without the need of buying something.
I just love to be part of this community, guys.
Sending you much love.
Laura, much love back to you.
We love that you're part of our community as well.
And thank you for that lovely comment.
I like that. Avoid buying things by saying hell no to non -essentials.
Or I would say, say hell no to junk, right?
Some non -essentials add a lot of value to our lives.
I'm in the studio right now.
There's a coffee table here and we could get by without it.
We'd be fine without it.
It's not absolutely essential, but it is value adding.
Professor Sean is keeping his water on there.
We keep coffee on there.
And sometimes we put a computer there or a microphone if we have someone here and that's great.
It's non -essential, but it does add value to our lives.
But saying hell no to the junk, because if something is not a hell yes, that table is a a hell yes and that's all we have it but as soon as it ceases to be a hell yes then it's a no if it's a maybe i think the same thing could be true for conversations you get to a point where you're like yes this is a hell yes conversation but you might also get to the point where you're like oh get me out of this and you see the red flags piling up or you maybe you just feel the red red flags energetically.
And that's when it's time to let go.
For anyone else who has a list or tip or insight about this episode or any other episode, send a voice memo to podcast at theminimalists .com so we can feature your voice on the show.
Up next, page two and page three.
But first, let's take a quick pandiculation break.
We'll be right back.
All right, that's the first like 37 % of episode 496.
We'll see you on Patreon Patreon for the full maximal edition, which includes answers to a bunch more questions like, can I be happy if I don't have a purpose?
What is the minimalist approach to a divorce in which kids are involved?
What is the proper way to identify a narcissist?
How do we practice minimalism if we enjoy buying things?
Plus, we have a million more questions and simple living segments over on The Minimalist's private podcast on Patreon.
You can try it out seven days for free.
Patreon .com slash The Minimalist. The link is also in the description.
And that is our minimal episode for today.
Big thanks to Earthing Studios for the recording space.
On behalf of Ryan Nicodemus, TK Coleman, Post Production Peter, Spire Jeff, and Spire Dave, Professor Sean on the couch, Savvy D on the board, and the rest of our team, I'm Joshua Fields Milburn.
If you leave here with just one message, message, let it be this.
Love people and use things because the opposite never works.
Thanks for listening, y 'all.
We'll see you next time.
Keep it simple. Good talk.
Howdy!
