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The world order is shifting.
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It's hard being the BBC's man in Moscow.
You are shaping the perception and the perception that Russia is guilty.
That's what you are doing.
You get accused of things, even by government spokespeople.
And this is propaganda.
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry to say this.
You are a piece of propaganda.
Steve Rosenberg's been reporting from Russia for more than 25 years.
He's one of only a handful of Western journalists left in Moscow.
Sometimes it gets quite personal.
As we reach four years since the full-scale invasion of Ukraine, there's been an intensified crackdown on freedom of speech and dissent.
Russia's now ranked in the bottom 10 countries on the World Press Freedom Index.
It's especially difficult when Vladimir Putin knows who you are and says that you're being paid to attack him.
It's especially difficult when Vladimir Putin knows who you are and says that you're being paid to attack him.
From the BBC, I'm Tristan Redmond in London.
And today on The Global Story, the tightrope of reporting in Russia.
Hello, hello, hello.
Hello, hello, hello, hello.
One, two, three.
One, two, three.
Hello, Steve.
It's great to have you with us.
Thank you for joining us.
Thank you.
It's nice to be back with you.
I'm Steve Rosenberg.
I'm the BBC's Russia editor based in Moscow and covering news in the world's largest country.
Well, Steve, you are one of the only Western journalists left in Russia these days.
And in your recent writing and reporting you've been looking back at your time in Russia and what it means to still be there today.
I'm endlessly fascinated by all things Russia and the the experience of being a foreigner in a place like Moscow.
How hard has it been Steve, watching so many of your journalistic colleagues in other news organisations being forced to leave Moscow in the last few years.
The first thing to say is I'm not the only Western journalist left here in Moscow.
There are still quite a few of us, not nearly as many as there used to be.
A lot of media organizations, Western media organizations, pulled out after the full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2022.
And I took the decision that I wanted to stay because I thought it was important, as long as it was safe to do so.
And of course, that's a big question.
And I'm constantly assessing and reassessing the safety.
But I thought I wanted to stay because I'm fascinated by Russia.
I have been for decades.
And I want to see how this very dramatic story ends.
So it was a personal decision.
But I totally respect the decisions taken by those colleagues who left Russia after the start of the war.
Well, we want to understand Steve, how things have changed the experience of being in Moscow over the whole arc of your career there.
So let's start at the very beginning.
Do you remember when you first became interested in Russia?
Yes, I do, actually.
It was a long time ago.
I had more hair in those days.
It was in 1980.
And I was 12 and BBC Television broadcast its first and, I think, only ever Russian language course on television.
And I sat there transfixed.
The Russian alphabet.
Over 260 million people know it quite well.
And by the time we get to programme five in this series, you will too.
There was something about the Russian language which was enchanting.
The sound, the sounds of the letters.
These letters together make the Russian version of USSR.
And I watched this language course religiously every week and got really interested in the language and the country.
And at that time, you know, the Soviet Union was a very closed place.
And then, A few years later, Mikhail Gorbachev came to power in the USSR and this mysterious, very closed superpower began to open up to the world.
And it was on our television screens every day, virtually, in the news.
So when it came to going to university, I thought, well, I want to study Russian.
So I finished university in 1991, got a job in Moscow, teaching English.
Four months later, the Soviet Union fell apart.
That was it.
Within the last hour, President Gorbachev has resigned.
Boris Yeltsin is now in full control.
No more USSR.
It said USSR on my visa, but there was no country, the USSR.
The hammer and sickle was hastily taken away.
In its place, the Russian flag was hoisted over what is now no longer the Soviet Union, but the Commonwealth of Independent States.
And obviously, there was lots of news at the time.
And I decided that I wanted to work in broadcasting.
That was my dream.
And I managed to get a job with CBS News.
And my goodness, the 1990s, it was a chaotic decade.
Millions of Russians fell into poverty when the economic reforms began.
And you had this sort of switch from the state controlled economy of communism to wild capitalism, basically.
So it was a difficult year for many people.
But on the other hand, the thing I remember most about the 1990s was this sense of hope that finally East and West could put behind them the Cold War era confrontation.
Well, how were you received as a Westerner at this particular moment?
Very warmly.
I think it was 1997.
I got a call saying, would you like to go on Russian TV's premiere comedy show?
It's called The White Parrot Club.
Basically, it involved various Russian celebrities sitting around every week telling each other jokes.
And this was a special edition devoted to British humour.
Very often, the white parrot club was filmed in a pub.
And there was a white parrot, I think called Arkasha, in a cage.
And apparently, I've heard that they used to let Arkasha out from time to time.
And he used to fly around the pub or the bar, landing on alcohol and drinking some of these drinks.
So the symbol of Russia is the double-headed eagle.
But my first experience of a bird in Russia was a tipsy parrot called Arkasha, the white parrot club.
Anyway.
So we're sitting around in this Moscow bar and the president of the White Parrot Club, who was a huge star, called Yuri Nikulin.
He was a famous clown in the Soviet Union.
He ran the Moscow Circus, a big film star.
He told the story of his World War II adventures and how Britain and the Soviet Union had been on the same side.
And it really felt as if we were on the same side, right?
And we were going to walk off into the sunset together, the West and Russia, and be friends forevermore.
And they asked me to sing a song.
So I sat down on the piano and I played this kind of British classic, Daisy Daisy.
Why did you pick that song?
It was the first song that came to mind, but actually, thinking back to it, I think it was quite appropriate, because there's a line in the song you'll look sweet upon the seat of a bicycle made for two.
And that's how I felt at the time.
I did feel as if written and...
Russia were on this bicycle made for two and we were going to be going in the same direction.
And it was the start of a great new world.
And it just didn't work out.
As you say, it hasn't quite worked out as many people might have hoped or expected in the 1990s.
Do you remember the moment when you had a sense for the first time that things might change?
Yes.
I think when Vladimir Putin took over.
So I joined the BBC Moscow Bureau in 1997 as a producer.
But in 1999, this was New Year's Eve, the Bureau was empty.
I was the only one in the office at that moment in the morning.
And suddenly there was breaking news.
Boris Yeltsin had resigned and Huge news, right?
And I was the only one around.
So I had to, Muggins here, do the first dispatch, radio dispatch on this breaking news.
So, as I was sweating profusely, I managed to stumble through my first kind of national BBC dispatched.
Boris Yeltsin always said he would see out his full term in office.
Today, he told Russians he'd changed his mind.
So in a sense, my career as a reporter began the same day as Vladimir Putin's career as president.
Vladimir Putin, who was prime minister, had become acting president and was elected president a few months later.
Clearly he was a very different person, kind of president, from boris yeltsin.
Boris yeltsin had a thick skin.
There were tv channels in russia that criticized him and he didn't care.
He didn't close them down.
Also, he was not from the kgb or the fsb, now the russian security service.
Um, he was a party apparatchik communist party apparatchik, originally Vladimir Putin.
His background was security services.
He was a much younger leader and he came into power at a very difficult time for Russia.
There'd been a banking crisis.
Many Russians were craving stability, and Putin came into power and said look okay, I'm going to restore order.
But it was clear pretty quickly that restoring order meant restoring the power of the centre, the power of the Kremlin.
And anyone who resisted that.
Clearly the Kremlin was going to ensure that you couldn't defeat the Kremlin.
And that's what happened.
But I think it's probably wrong to say, looking back at those years, it's wrong to say that everything changed when Putin came in.
Because the seeds of what's happening now were sown, I think, in the 1990s.
You've said that the invasion of Ukraine by Russia in February 2022 was a turning point.
How quickly did things actually change on the ground for you as a working journalist?
Things changed pretty quickly, I'd say.
In the days after the full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine, the Russian authorities passed a series of laws, repressive laws, designed to punish dissent and to silence criticism of the authorities and of the war, and i remember that our bosses in london were obviously concerned about the implications of this legislation for us, and so they asked us to pause broadcasting just for a few days, while the lawyers in london could, could study the legislation, and that felt very, very strange with such dramatic events swirling around us.
We, we went silent and um Yeah, that was quite frustrating.
I remember at that moment, the piano actually was my saviour.
So I sat at the piano a lot for those three days and I wrote a piece of music that tried to express how I felt about at that moment, this sort of sense of isolation really.
Did you feel, though, that that moment might have been the end of the road for you in Russia?
We had no idea what was going to happen.
I mean, from hour to hour.
And that sense of uncertainty was quite difficult to deal with.
And a lot of the contributors who used to speak to us, give interviews to the BBC, stopped doing so.
The other big difference was we used to have a really big, bustling bureau.
There were dozens of staff members who worked for BBC Russia, so broadcasting in Russian to a Russian audience on the BBC Russian website.
But after the full-scale invasion of Ukraine, BBC Russian took the decision to leave Moscow because they were very much on the front line.
Leaving us, the small number of English language news gatherers.
And yes, suddenly our big bustling newsroom became a very quiet ghost towny newsroom.
What's the experience like of being out and about actually gathering news?
What are the obstacles that you come up against?
When we go out of Moscow, go to the regions, quite often you get the feeling that there is a people following you.
This chap has been hanging around us for a good 10 minutes or so, clearly filming us, I think.
That's not new.
That's been the case for some time now.
And I wouldn't say I feel intimidated by it.
You just note that it's happening.
Oh, off he goes.
As soon as I start talking about it.
That's what it is at the moment.
That's what life is like.
And you kind of, it's not surprising anymore.
How difficult is it to get the truth of a story out and get to the heart of what people in Russia are actually thinking, when there are so many restrictions on how the press operate?
There would be no point, I think, in me being here if I couldn't report on what's happening.
I think it's still possible to do that.
I wouldn't ask people on the streets do you support the war?
Are you against the war?
Because that could get people into trouble.
However, there are masses of questions that you can ask people to get a sense of the mood on the streets.
From the conversations I've had in villages and towns and cities, I think it's pretty clear that many Russians are tired of this war.
More and more Russians are feeling it in terms of they know people who've either been killed fighting in Ukraine or been injured.
And also people feeling the economic consequences of four years of sanctions, which are now really kicking in.
I've spent the last three decades trying to better understand money across the boardroom, the newsroom and the trading floor.
That's longer than most podcast hosts have been alive.
But even I've got questions.
Join me Maren's Hubset Web every week for my show Maren Talks Money from Bloomberg Podcasts, where I have in-depth conversations with fund managers, strategists and experts about how markets really work.
And join me for a separate episode where I answer listener questions on how to make those markets work for you.
Follow Marin Talks Money on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
Well Steve, once a year famously, you get to ask Vladimir Putin a question at his end of year press conference.
And a few months ago, actually, we spoke just before you were going to the end of 2025 one.
I'm really curious to know what that experience is like.
I mean, how do you judge how to phrase things and how hard to push?
Well, for a start, I mean, I don't take that for granted and there's no guarantee that I get a question right.
But I see it as a huge responsibility, because if you get a question to Vladimir Putin, you want to make it count right.
You don't want to ask a kind of a puff question, right?
Some of the questions that Vladimir Putin has been asked include do you have a dream, Mr President?
And are you a happy person?
So in the days leading up to a Putin press conference I kind of shut myself off and I scribble down questions and then rewrite them.
We keep rewriting them. think about every word in them, where I can say war, where I can't say war.
You have to think so hard about the phrasing of a question and practice it.
Steve Rosenberg, BBC News.
So, yeah, in December 2025, I was lucky I got a question.
And...
Yeah, I asked Vladimir Putin, how did he see the future of Russia?
Were there going to be more special military operations?
Was he going to continue to cut off the mobile internet for people?
That's happening a lot here.
Was the hunt for enemies, internal enemies and external enemies, going to continue?
Were critics of the authorities going to be prosecuted like they are now?
So I packed a lot into it.
And I said, you know, basically, power is in your hands in this country.
So what kind of future are you going to build for your country?
And, yeah, he replied, a nine-and-a-half-minute reply.
What will be the future of Russia?
And even though obviously one question at a press conference is not as good as an interview, you can still find out quite a lot about the Russian president, I think, from one response at a press conference fueled by resentment of the West.
That comes through time and time again when he responds.
He believes in his mind that Russia has been duped, Russia has been deceived by the West for years.
He believes Western leaders broke promises to Russia.
And this is fueling, to a large extent, his actions.
He comes across as confident.
He believes that he's got the edge now, that he's got the initiative on the battlefield.
Now, whether he's right or not is another matter.
But he is focused on the war.
He's animated when talking about the war.
He's energized when talking about the war.
And actually looking at him at that press conference and generally when he makes speeches, it's hard to imagine Vladimir Putin as a peacetime leader again.
And then after the press conference, it's not over, because then, because I asked a question, lots of Russian television crews then come up to you and starts sort of bombarding you with questions.
What did you think of the president's answer?
Are you satisfied with the president's answer?
And that kind of thing.
You work, Steve, under incredibly challenging and dangerous conditions in Moscow.
Why do you think you've been able to stay there for so long?
I would like to think that there's some modicum of respect.
They know that I'm someone who for many years has devoted my life to Russia, to reporting Russia, but I don't know.
So I know that it could end at any moment, but I'm just walking this tightrope.
It does feel like I'm on this tightrope whenever I go in front of the camera or the microphone.
Because I want to report honestly what's happening, but I'm well aware that down below there's a minefield.
I don't want to fall off the tightrope and hit a mine.
So I try and tell the story as I see it as calmly as I can, really.
Mm-hmm.
One of the things you said earlier really struck me is that you want to see how the story ends.
I wonder if you could say more about what you mean by that.
I'm probably kidding myself, because probably this story is going to go on, and on and on, you know, like a, a Tolstoy novel.
You keep turning the pages and it never seems to end.
But I am fascinated by Russia and what's going to happen next.
Vladimir Putin's been in power for 25 years as president or prime minister.
The whole system in this country is built around him.
What happens after Vladimir Putin?
No one knows that.
There's no obvious successor.
The one thing that Russian history teaches us is that things change.
Russia changes and change can happen very fast and that things can swing.
I think one of the things I've learned about Russia is that this is a country very much Very cold winters, very hot summers, a country that can swing from communism to wild capitalism, to another kind of authoritarianism.
A country where, if you switch on Russian state television today, there'll be TV hosts and commentators pouring out this sort of anti-Western rhetoric.
A few months ago, one of the most famous TV show hosts in Russia said that I walk around looking like a defecating squirrel.
He called me an enemy of Russia.
And yet, the next day, I was out on the street and several people, Muscovites came up to me.
They recognized me.
They shook my hand.
They said nice things about my reporting.
And they took selfies with me.
It's this country of extremes, almost like the Russian national symbol, right?
The double-headed eagle.
One head is sort of growling and calling you names.
And the other head is saying nicer things to me.
So a country of extremes.
And the last four years have tested my love for the country to its very extremes.
But I remain fascinated by the place.
I hope I'll be able to continue to follow what's happening, because I think it's important to chart what's happening.
It does feel as if I'm living inside this history book which is being written before my very eyes.
And I'd like to know how the book is going to end.
Well, Steve, I'm going to give you my own double headed eagle.
On the one hand, I do not think you look like a defecating squirrel.
But on the other hand, I do respect the imagery of the phrase.
It's very inventive as a...
As an insult.
There are worse animals to be compared to.
At least, you know, squirrels are quite cute with bushy tails.
So I always look for the positives.
And there's one.
I cling on to that positive.
There we are.
Keep clinging on to the positives, Steve.
Absolutely.
Thank you so much.
Bye now.
And if you want to catch up on the latest news from around the world, then look for our sister show, The Global News Podcast, wherever you listen.
And for listeners outside the USA.
You can watch Steve's film Our Man in Moscow Inside Putin's Russia on the BBC News YouTube channel.
And that's it for this episode of Global Story.
Today's show was produced by Sam Chandrasak.
It was edited by Bridget Harney and mixed by Travis Evans.
Our senior news editor is China Collins.
And I'm Tristan Redman.
Thanks for listening.
See you tomorrow.
Cheerio.
Thank you.
I've spent the last three decades trying to better understand money across the boardroom, the newsroom and the trading floor.
That's longer than most podcast hosts have been alive.
But even I've got questions.
Join me, Maren Subset-Webb, every week for my show Maren Talks Money from Bloomberg Podcasts, where I have in-depth conversations with fund managers, strategists and experts about how markets really work.
And join me for a separate episode where I answer listener questions on how to make those markets work for you.
Follow Merrin Talks Money on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
