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Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio.
Good morning. This is Laura.
Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast.
Today's episode is going to be a longer one, part of a series where I interview fascinating people about how they take their days from great to awesome and their advice for the rest of us.
So today I am delighted to welcome Dana K.
White to the program.
Dana is a decluttering expert, the author of Organizing for the Rest of Us, and most recently a book called Jesus Doesn't Care About Your Messy House.
She's created numerous helpful YouTube videos.
I know a lot of people listening to the show have watched for people looking to get their homes and lives under control.
So Dana, welcome to the show.
Thanks so much for having me on.
Yeah, glad to have you.
So maybe you could introduce yourself to our listeners.
What you're up to these days?
Well, I'm Dana K. White.
I always put the K in there so we don't you know, get confused and think you're talking to the guy who runs the UFC because that's not me.
Not talking to him today.
Not today. You know, any other day.
So I don't teach it out of a place of, wow, I'm so good at this.
Everybody else should be good on it too, it's more like, oh, I get how hard this is.
And I've had to figure it out.
So. So it's been more of a journey.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
And how did you so then how does one establish oneself as a decluttering expert if this is something that that isn't so easy for you?
I mean, how have you gone about doing that?
Well, it was not my intention.
I will tell you that I just wanted to be a writer.
And I was stopped from doing that because I just had it in my head, I was like, I have got to get my house under control first.
I'm not saying you have to have your house under control in order to do the thing you want to do.
But it was stopping me, right?
Like I found out what blogs were back in 2008.
And I was like, that's it.
I've got to have one.
And I had been trying so hard to get my house under control.
And I was like, I can't take on another thing until I get this figured out.
And so I didn't start my blog for a year and a half.
and I started it as a practice blog like I thought that I was going to write about getting my house under control as a way to stay focused on that and figure it out and then start writing about things I actually felt qualified to write about right so in the beginning it was anonymous I didn't even tell
my husband what I was doing for like at least a month and I was just trying to figure it out had no intention of teaching anyone any of this stuff like actually as people started to read it.
And they're like, Can you teach us what you're doing?
And I would say, why in the world would anyone want to learn about this from me?
I'm like, No, no, I am like struggling my way through.
And after about two and a half years, I had my house at a point where I was like, Oh, I get it now.
Like I know what to do.
I know what I was doing wrong.
And when people would ask me that I finally said, You know what, I cannot tell you how to have a perfect house.
But I can tell you how to go from completely overwhelmed and hopeless to, oh, okay, I get it now.
You know, and so that is my niche or niche or however you like to say it.
Well, I'm very curious what made it so overwhelming.
I mean, I was sort of thinking like, you know, being paralyzed and unable to write or something that you must have been like sitting under giant piles of furniture or something.
Sammy, what was going on with the house that made it so out of control?
You know, it was just a constant disaster.
OK, so I could have people over.
I just needed two weeks to get ready.
That's all. So all I needed was so I would take the first week to, you know, declutter.
I'm making air quotes as I say that I would take the first week to declutter, which really just meant I shoved everything into my my husband's bedroom because that was the door I could lock right I would shove everything in there and then I would clean for a week because you can't actually clean when there's
clutter everywhere right and so it was just a constant disaster and I could get my house under control but I treated it like a project and so I would like you know take everything else off the calendar work on my house get it you know basically under control and then think, okay, I'm done, right?
And then it would go right back to being a disaster.
Things I didn't know.
I had more stuff than I could possibly handle.
I had more stuff than I had places to put stuff.
And I didn't understand that correlation, right?
Because I'm a highly creative person and I don't see limits.
And so, you know, that just didn't occur to me that too much stuff was the actual issue that I had.
It was just a constant disaster and I could get my house under control, but I treated it like a project.
And so I would like, you know, take everything else off the calendar, work on my house, get it, you know, basically under control and then think, okay, phew, I'm done.
Right. And then it would go right back to being a disaster.
Things I didn't know.
I had more stuff than I could possibly handle.
I had more stuff than I had places to put stuff.
And I didn't understand that correlation.
Right. Cause I'm a highly creative person and I don't see limits.
And so, you know, that just didn't occur to me that the too much stuff was the actual issue that I had.
So when I say that my house is a disaster, I mean that I avoided having people come over or when I did have them come over, it was a huge stressful deal.
And so, yeah, go ahead.
Yeah. Is that the most common issue then when people feel like their homes are overwhelming and out of control?
Is it that they have too much stuff?
Generally, yes. It's that and it's routines.
I always tell people to start with the routines because part of my issue was I always thought, what is the point of any kind of a maintenance task when my house is a total disaster?
I need to get it under control and then start maintaining.
That never worked. What actually did work was when I started doing those maintenance type tasks before it was any better.
I just started with the maintenance tasks.
That started to change my home at the same time, the more I did that, it freed up time for me to get stuff out of my house.
And so those two things are equally important.
You really can't have one without the other.
But in general, yes, most people's issues are that they have too much stuff.
Well, it's an easy thing to have happen.
And this is, you know, running not too long after the holidays.
I'm sure a lot of folks have just gotten a whole new shipment of stuff into their homes.
I mean, well, what can you do if you find you have too much stuff?
Let's start with the getting rid of some of the stuff first, and then we can talk about the routines that are helpful for maintenance.
Yeah. So the number one thing that I recommend, and this is all based on my own experience, is that you should prioritize decluttering according to the most visible spaces in your home.
This is actually the opposite of what most of us naturally tend to do.
We tend to think, I need to declutter.
And we start with the linen closet, or we start with the top shelf of the closet, you know, some obscure place where maybe we've been thinking about, oh, that needs to be dealt with.
Oh, you know, or maybe it's that if I work on this space, and we don't really use it that often, then maybe it'll stay decluttered, right?
But the problem with that is that you put all this time and energy into this space that you don't see and use consistently.
And therefore, you're not seeing the results of the work that you've done.
And if you've spent all day decluttering a back closet, and then the doorbell rings, and you're still embarrassed to open the front door, or you let somebody in and they say, what have you been doing today?
And you say, well, I've been decluttering.
And you see their eyes look around like, really?
You know, and that is so defeating, right?
Like it's so incredibly defeating to have that happen that it makes you just feel like, what's the point?
But if you start in a visible space, then the progress that you're going to make is something that you're going to experience.
You're going to experience the benefits of it.
You're going to see, even though you walked past that mess for months, now you walk by and it's clear and you're like, oh, That looks so good.
And it increases that decluttering energy.
So it helps to perpetuate your decluttering energy and build that momentum that everybody's looking for.
So that's the number one thing that as far as how to start decluttering, I have my no mess decluttering process, right, which is designed to make progress and only progress never end up creating a worse mess than you have before.
Like, you know, how everybody always says, Oh, it has to get worse before it gets better.
That's not true. You know, don't make it worse.
So you are not saying we should put everything in the middle of the floor, took everything out of every kitchen drawer.
And then, and then, you know, something happens, you're pulled away, got to go pick a kid up from school sick, and then the mess is worse than it ever was.
Well, exactly. And you know, a lot of the people who send me emails will say, well, I did that.
And then I had stuff all over the floor for six months, you know, even without it being that extreme method, I thought that the way you had to declutter was to pull everything out of the space.
Like I just, I thought that's what everybody said you were supposed to do.
And so I would try that.
And every single time I would end up overwhelmed and defeated because I never finished it, you know?
And so it was worse than it was before.
And I would shove it all back in and where I used to kind of know where things were in the pile.
Now I had no idea. So yeah, so as far as starting, we start with the trash.
Like we just start one item at a time, pulling it out.
And then I, you know, my five -step process takes you all the way through, but it helps me know what to remove first.
And every item that I remove makes me a little bit less overwhelmed, helps me understand what I'm dealing with so that when I do get to the point where I'm making actual decisions, I'm ready for that.
Awesome. Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and then I will be right back with Dana K.
White talking about decluttering.
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They already know what to do with it.
It already has an established home.
I just have to do the thing.
Sometimes I call this procrastinate clutter, right?
It's stuff that's laying around.
Like if you really work hard on your living room and yet there is a recliner piled high with clean laundry, your living room doesn't actually look like it's been decluttered, right?
Because that eyesore is there, but it's easy to be like oh I'll get to that later when I'm not decluttering but it's important to get that stuff done so that you have the actual you know benefit of what you're doing and then after that that's when you tackle the more difficult thing yeah the next the next
step in my five steps is the obvious donations so I call them the duh donations like why do I even have this I don't have to think about it I'm just going to go ahead and get those out because again with everything that leaves now I can see more clearly what I'm actually dealing with and then at that point
that's when I ask my decluttering questions that's step four all right what are those real quick let's run through yeah so there's only two and if you if you can answer the first one you don't have to even ask the second one so uh the question declaring question number one is if I needed this item where would I
look for it first and it has to be asked like that like it's not where should it go?
It's not where would it be?
It is where would I look for it first?
If I already knew where it went, it left in step two, right?
Like, I'm only asking this question because I literally don't know where this thing goes.
It doesn't have a home in my house.
And this is how I give it a home.
Where would I look first?
At the beginning of what I assume is going to be a three -hour search, tearing apart my house, looking for this item, right?
So where's the first place where I would look.
And then I take it to that place right now because this is the key to the no mess, right?
Is to go ahead and do the thing so that when I get distracted, when I get overwhelmed, when I just am like, I'm done, I'm out, I can't do this anymore.
I have only made progress.
I haven't made any piles.
I haven't put things in boxes to deal with later.
I've made real progress.
And that's a game changer for me and for so many people.
Yeah. What I love about this is, I mean, people hear that and they're like, well, that's incredibly inefficient, wastes time.
And I was like, well, sure.
But you know, we could probably all use a little bit more exercise.
So if you're running up and down the stairs a few more times, it's not the end of the world.
And it's so funny to me because I like, I get emails from people pretty much every single day saying, I had all the reasons why this was a terrible idea and so inefficient.
And then I tried it.
So I'm always like, just try it.
Because people are like, I can't believe the power of actually being done with that small thing.
Because here's the real opposite of efficiency is when you make little piles or you put things in a box to go take to their homes later and then you have to go back through the piles and ask yourself the question again to remember where it was that you were supposed to put that thing, right?
Like that's the opposite of efficient because you're redoing your work And I need to just go ahead and do that thing, act on it.
The other thing that happens when I do that is I face the reality of the space.
Because if I'm not actually going to that space right now where I say I would look for it first, I may be picturing a space like a cabinet that has plenty of room in there for this random mug.
And then I actually get to the cabinet and I realize, oh, I've got 17 of this mechanical pencil that I said I would look for here first.
Oh, okay. Or this thing, right?
Like that's the opposite of efficient because you're redoing your work.
And I need to just go ahead and do that thing, act on it.
The other thing that happens when I do that is I face the reality of the space.
Because if I'm not actually going to that space right now where I say I would look for it first, I may be picturing a space, like a cabinet that has plenty of room in there for this random mug.
And then I actually get to the cabinet and I realize, oh, I've got 17 of this mechanical pencil that I said I would look for here first.
Oh, okay. Or this drawer where I say I would look for it first won't even close.
And so it's this reality check instead of just this fantasy land of, oh, yeah, I'll do this later.
I'll do this later.
I'll do this later.
But I'm going to face that reality and I'm really moving actually forward in my home by doing that.
Love it. I love it.
So let's talk about sort of the daily maintenance habits then, because this is how you're getting rid of stuff.
This is how you're kind of lightening the overwhelming amount of stuff that is in the house.
But you said that you also need to do these sort of daily routines to keep on top of things.
So what are some of those?
Well, I mean, they are as basic as it gets, right?
Because when I started, I call it my deslobification process.
When I started, I was like, I don't know what to do.
I had tried all the methods, I had failed at everything, I was pretty sure I was going to fail again.
And I was like, I don't know.
But I know that my friends whose houses are under control, like if I have to stop by for some reason unexpectedly, their kitchens are never a disaster.
What did you take from that?
Well, I didn't know how they did it.
It didn't make sense to me because here's the thing.
I would put off doing my dishes.
And by the time I did my dishes, I was catching up on dishes.
And so let's say that I had had a busy week and it's time to clean the house and I'm going to start in the kitchen.
And I would spend five hours catching up on getting my kitchen under control.
Five days worth of dishes.
Well, in my mind, logically, I was like, well, if it's five days worth of dishes, and it takes me five hours, then obviously, logically, it must take an hour to do the dishes every day.
And so I would say to myself, I don't want to do the dishes for an hour every day.
And that's not how dishes work.
Dishes are, if I do them every day, it only takes me 15 to 20 minutes, right?
And if I waited one more day, it's not twice that, it's an hour.
And then if I wait three days, it's hours, you know, so I call that dishes math.
It just does not work the way that I logically thought it would.
But doing the dishes every day changed everything because I never had to start in the kitchen.
So when I was going to work on my house, I could just start working on my house.
I didn't have to go catch up in the kitchen first.
The other routine or task that I tell people, if you're completely overwhelmed, do the dishes and do a five -minute pickup.
Now the dishes are hard because the first day you are catching up if you're behind.
The five -minute pickup, I actually mean five minutes today, even if your house is, every surface is covered, okay?
Okay. Because the problem was, I always thought, oh, I need to get all those surfaces under control and then it would make sense to do five minutes.
In the meantime, all the surfaces were so overwhelming that I didn't do anything and then it just got worse and worse and worse, right?
But if you'll do five minutes of picking up and putting away today, and then tomorrow, and then the next day.
And whenever you think about it, it's amazing the impacts that it'll have.
And those are also the same two things to do to keep your house under control.
So like those two things will change your house, and they'll maintain your house.
Yep, we can do a lot in five minutes, especially if we do five minutes every single day.
Yeah, we're gonna take one more quick ad break.
And then I will be back with more from Dana.
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Hill House Home's commitment to comfort and style doesn't stop at their dresses.
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Well, I am back interviewing Dana K.
White, who is the author of several decluttering books organizing for the rest of us.
And then most recently, Jesus doesn't care about your messy house.
So this is a fascinating title to me, Dana.
I have to say it hadn't occurred to me that Jesus had thought much about my house.
But it sounds like you've worked with a number of people who have some significant shame and guilt about the state of their home to the point of thinking that, like, it's sinful to have a messy house or something like that.
So maybe you could unpack that topic a little bit.
Yeah, so I am a Christian, and when I started this journey, I assumed God was going to show me some secret that I had somehow been missing.
It hadn't occurred to me that Jesus had thought much about my house.
But it sounds like you've worked with a number of people who have some significant shame and guilt about the state of their home to the point of thinking that it's sinful to have a messy house or something like that.
So maybe you could unpack that topic a little bit.
Yeah, so I am a Christian and I, when I started this journey, I assumed God was going to show me some secret that I had somehow been missing.
That was gonna just make me go, oh, I get it now.
And then my house always be clean.
You know, like I, because it felt like, you know, we don't have time to unpack all of it, right?
But it felt like I was missing something because I would try to get this thing under control and I just couldn't do it.
You know, I've heard a lot of people talk about the same thing from the perspective of someone who can't stop cleaning, you know, like their house is perfect and they keep going and they keep going because they're trying to be perfect for God, you know.
And I've heard them talk about how God showed them that his love is grace and it has nothing to do with what we do.
And I was like, okay, that's great for them.
But what about for me when I have tried and I just can't do it?
You know, it's like, am I missing something?
Is there something wrong?
So as I worked on my house, God was showing me very separately that he just made me the way that I am.
My brain just works differently.
You know, like we're all different.
There's that's not an excuse to have my house not be under control.
But at the same time, it's also not a shame.
Like it just is an issue of, OK, so my brain works differently.
I've got to figure out what does work for me, because the problem was I always was trying to do what, you know, everybody would say you were supposed to do in your house.
And I'd be like, well, this doesn't work.
Right. And it's because what a lot of people are teaching on this stuff misses the actual starting point that I was at, right?
Like that's a big, it's not that what people are advising and sharing and encouraging other people to do is not correct.
It's that my starting point was so far back that I had a lot to do before I could ever even get to that point and it just didn't make sense to me.
So when I acknowledged and accepted that, you know what?
This is not a spiritual issue.
This is just, I'm wired differently and I got to figure out what does work for me.
It removed that shame and it set me on a path where I was like, you know what?
I like who I am. And if that also means that I struggle in my house, that's fine.
And then I was free to actually figure out what did work for me instead of trying other people's ways, failing at those ways and thinking, oh, my word, what's wrong with me?
Yeah. Yeah. Realizing that everyone is different and our brains work differently and we experience the world differently is good and good to know that God made us all different as well.
And it's a beautiful thing, right?
Like, we wouldn't want to all be the same.
How boring would that be?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm glad to find out that Jesus doesn't care about the state of my house.
So that's good. I'm glad to hear that.
Exactly. Exactly. So, Dana, you mentioned the daily housekeeping routines of doing the dishes and doing the five -minute pickup but I'm curious if you have any sort of other routines or daily habits that more about like excavating from the clutter and sweep the kitchen floor which is not about crumbs
necessarily it's about combating what I call my slob vision where I just don't see that oh there's a pile of things over here or there's whatever.
But if I will sweep the kitchen floor every day, then it just is a habit that helps me see those things.
But the way that I manage that is I have had to come to the point where I don't assign those things to a very specific time of day.
So for example, the five minute pickup.
I knew that people whose houses were under control did a pickup every night.
right and so when I used to try to change I would be like okay okay I am going to start picking up the living room every night before the kids go to bed okay you know and then we would do it for a night maybe two nights and then it would be a week later and I would think oh my goodness I forgot to do
that okay the kids are already in bed all right tomorrow night I'll do that and then I would forget again.
And then the next. So what I came to the point of realizing was whatever time it crosses my mind, that's when I need to do it.
And sometimes it's frustrating because I like to have the whole family participate in the five minute pickup.
But if it crosses my mind to do it when it's just me at home, then I go ahead and do it.
And strangely, me doing a five minute pickup when it's just me at home actually usually helps me remember to do another one, which we always need when the kids are home too, right?
And so this, not assigning it to a specific time was actually very freeing because it kept me from giving up because, oh, I missed that time again.
I missed that time again.
And that could go on for weeks until it just, I just gave up completely, right?
Of like, man, every single night when I'm putting the kids to bed, it never crosses my mind to pick up toys before they go to bed, whatever.
Not that my kids have toys anymore, but you know what I mean?
Back in the day. Yeah.
Back in the day. Yeah.
Yeah. OK, wonderful.
Yeah. Well, I think there's something so freeing about realizing that routines don't always have to happen at the same time every day.
And sometimes I tell people with this show, you know, morning routines are morning can be a state of mind.
Sometimes your morning routine is more of a morning checklist.
And the morning checklist may happen over the course of the day if your life is a certain way.
And that's that's totally fine, too.
So, Dana, what's something you've done recently to take a day from great to awesome?
Well, let me think.
I put on my calendar, which is funny because my best friend is my assistant as well.
And I just texted her the other day.
I said, Hey, did you notice that two months ago I put on the calendar that we're going to do our Christmas shopping tomorrow?
And she was like, she's like, yeah, I saw.
I put it on my calendar too.
I was like, okay, good.
Thanks. And I think it's that scheduling in, you know, like this is, we're talking, I'm not sure when this is coming out, but we're talking in December and it gets really bananas, especially when your content is about decluttering because decluttering time is really, really strong, you know, in January.
And so I schedule in my fun things and I'm like, she and I go Christmas shopping every year.
And if I don't get it on the calendar And I did that as I was, you know, coming up with times and dates where I could do podcast interviews and things about the new book.
And I'm like, OK, this is as important, if not more important than all the other things, because if I don't have that, then it feels like what am I doing all the rest of this stuff for?
You know, if I'm not able to do the things that bring me peace and joy and happiness and all that way to get it on the calendar.
Yeah. Putting things on the calendar is generally a good way for making them happen.
Exactly. Exactly. So, Dana, where can people find you?
You can find me at acelabcomesclean .com.
That has links to all my YouTube and podcasts.
And I have decluttering coaches now who are certified by me and all that.
So, yep. That sounds awesome.
Well, Dana, thank you so much for joining us.
And thank you to everyone for listening to one of these longer episodes.
If you have feedback for me about this episode or any other, you can email me at laura at lauravandercam .com.
In the meantime, this is Laura.
Thanks for listening.
And here's to making the most of our time.
Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast.
If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach me at laura at lauravandercam .com.
Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia.
For more podcasts from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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