Welcome to this masterclass edition of Negotiate Anything.
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What makes this so special is that you'll hear how different experts from different industries approach the same challenge in their own unique ways.
Our goal is to give you multiple perspectives so you can build your own unique style.
Success doesn't look the same for everyone.
And in this masterclass, you'll see exactly why.
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Jeff, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate it.
Yes.
And I appreciate you, my friend.
And now listeners, I know what you think I'm going to say.
Hey, Jeff, well, let's start off by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.
That's not what we're going to do directly this time, because right now in our midst we have an interview expert.
So, before we actually give Jeff the opportunity to answer that question Jeff, can you teach us what people should be looking for in terms of how to respond to this question and some mistakes people typically make at this point?
Yeah, so just to set the context, tell me about yourself as a first impression question.
So we're trying to win that person over extremely quickly.
And the biggest challenge area is that people forget about the relevancy.
So we're always trying to tap into well, what's the company we're interviewing for and what's the role relevancy?
So I like for people to keep this answer really short and concise.
Specifically, you're looking to align three key areas that align with the job and the company and you're just simply telling your interviewer you know what and my fake interviewer is always sue.
So i just say you know, sue.
I thought a lot about that and the three areas where i see my background really aligning the best with this role are a, b and c.
I am happy to dive into any of those areas in more detail if you like, and I'm also happy to walk you through my background if you like.
Where should we go next?
Basically, what's happened here is you've shown great role alignment and if they really are asking you, walk me through your background, You've checked that box because some people, when they ask that question, actually do want you to walk them through your background.
Some don't, but we don't know unless we ask.
And so it's a great tip.
Follow the rule of three and try and keep that answer one minute or less.
Oh man, this is a masterclass already.
40 seconds in.
This is immense value very quickly.
Let me speak selfishly.
So usually when I'm booking speaking engagements, I have like my internal team negotiating those deals, or my speakers bureau.
Who does that?
And there's a client who, or potential client that wanted to know, like Hey, can we interview you beforehand?
And that's I haven't gotten that request in years.
I was kind of I'm almost embarrassed to admit my ego was inflamed.
Like how you want me to introduce myself?
You should do the research.
That's why you're here.
Right.
And so what I was thinking that what if they ask me, tell me about myself.
And I was like I don't know where to even go with the question, because I haven't had to answer that question in such a long time.
So the fact that this came up at this time is perfect for me.
So selfishly, I appreciate this.
And I love the fact that we have a very clear mental model for how to respond to this rules of stick with the rule of three and then. ending with curiosity.
Keep it short and sweet, recognizing, hey, this is relevant to you here.
Three ways it's relevant.
I'll let you guide the way.
Tell me what goes next.
And so this obviously works really well with negotiation strategy leaning in on asking questions, but doing it in a respectful way in this scenario, where you're not like monopolizing the conversation and taking it off track by rejecting the answer of that question but saying hey, I can't answer it.
Here's a short answer.
Where else would you like me to go?
I think that's brilliant.
Awesome.
Yeah.
So with that, Jeff, tell us about yourself.
So, for the purpose of this conversation, because you focus on negotiation, I'm going to answer that question from this angle, from that angle.
So what I think is important for the audience to know is that I've negotiated over a thousand job offers, and over 500 of those have been with candidates who have gotten offers at Google.
And I like to focus in on a lot of items.
But if we're just talking about the actual negotiation process, being gracious and kind is my number one.
Going in with a script and being slow, slowing everything down is two.
And then third is a high anchor.
There is tons of data and science to back up the fact that providing a high anchor can really set you up for success.
Now I'm happy to discuss any of those areas in more detail which I'm sure we'll cover in this conversation, but happy to let you lead and guide.
I love this.
Listeners, you can hear it.
I'm giddy about this.
This is a really strong start.
And you wouldn't be surprised listeners, but Jeff is very prepared.
So he came with prep for this interview.
And I'm excited about it.
Because one of the things that you said in the prep that you wanted to talk about that I think is so important, is focusing on That rule of no numbers until they love you and want to hire you.
And this applies in job negotiations.
But I think in all of the negotiations that seem to be, or appear to be, transactional on their surface, we can be drawn into the numbers so soon before we even do any work to establish the relationship.
So tell us a bit about this rule that you've established no numbers until they love you and want to hire you.
So any good point of contact, right?
For the most part big companies.
We're talking recruiters smaller companies.
Your first point of contact might actually be the direct hiring manager.
Any good recruiter or hiring manager is going to try to get those numbers out of you right in the beginning.
The challenge is, is you don't actually know much about the job.
You don't know much about the responsibilities outside of the job description.
And that's not a lot.
And so deflecting in a really kind and positive way can be really impactful.
So if that person comes in and says well, what's your salary expectations or what salary range do you have?
You say.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate you asking.
I'd really like to learn a little bit more about the role and company.
Meet with the team before providing any numbers.
And then you stay kind of really on that script because again at the end of the process, if you haven't provided any numbers and all of a sudden they love you, are they going to stretch a little bit on the numbers?
Probably.
Now, maybe they're not stretching on salary band because they can't do that for internal equity reasons, but maybe they give you a bigger sign on.
Maybe they give you more equity.
Maybe they're more flexible with your location or overall PTO or a bunch of different items.
So the more you deflect, the more power it gives the candidate at the end of the process.
This is so important for a number of different reasons.
First of all, negotiation strategy.
We recognize that this is sound and we'll go deeper into why this is sound.
But I just want to state that and move on to the other things too.
One of the things that you said is that the number might change based on how much they like you.
So this is not a situation where we have this objective reality of the numbers.
Like the numbers are what they are.
So why don't we just get to it now?
No, I recognize that the numbers are going to be more favorable to me if you see me more favorably.
So let me work on investing in our relationship, and then we can talk about the numbers, because the numbers are often not as concrete as they initially appear to be.
And then lastly, we have to talk about pressure too because, let's say, we understand why this is such a powerful tactic strategically.
Okay, this is why we want to execute it.
We recognize that we can get the power of positive biases moving in our favor by making sure that they know, like and trust us.
That helps us favorably.
But managing the pressure that you feel in that moment is a completely different element that we often don't appreciate.
So first let's start off by addressing why this is a sound negotiation strategy, and then we'll move on to addressing the pressure management portion of it.
So let's really paint this picture as to why this is such a powerful negotiation strategy.
Yeah, it's because the other piece that you just tapped into, that I wasn't really thinking about when I brought up these details, is up leveling.
So for instance and we can obviously go back and forth in a number of different areas but let's say you're interviewing for a director level role.
But you go in and you crush those interviews and they have the same opening at the director and VP.
Well, they'd still be taking those salary considerations into mind and that might skew them to just want to hire you at the director level role, because your salary expectations are just that much lower.
Something as simple as that.
It's just to recognize that importance.
And I don't want to forget this other critical piece.
It's okay to bring awareness into that conversation.
If they really push and say I really need to have your numbers before moving forward, we bring in that awareness and empathy.
We say, thank you so much.
I appreciate that.
I understand you're doing your job.
It's your job to get these numbers and I get it.
It's also important for me to understand a little bit more about the role in the team before I provide those expectations.
The thing that I love about this is that you used what I call the reasonable voice.
You weren't defensive.
Everything that you said was legitimate.
And I think that The thing that's so important about that, even though it seems very simple, is the fact that our emotions will lead us astray when it comes to this analysis.
Because in our mind, as we're feeling that pressure, we're saying I don't want to set up this boundary.
I don't want to hurt their feelings.
I don't want them to think I'm difficult.
But in the way that you articulated that, it did not seem difficult at all.
And so I think that's important to recognize that our emotions will make us feel things that are not necessarily true.
They're true in that it's an emotional experience that is real to us, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it should be what's guiding our negotiation strategy.
100%.
Absolutely agree.
Yeah.
And you mind if I put you on the spot here with this?
Because I think this might be a bit helpful with a role play too.
So I could play the role of the hiring manager asking for those expectations and you can show how you can give different levels of and layers of resistance in a reasonable type of way.
Yeah, 100%.
And listeners, just know, it sounds like I'm making this up off the fly because I truly am.
And I think this gives us a good opportunity for Jeff to showcase his skills and show how this does not need to be perfectly curated, but you can still make it sound work, make it work and be functional in the moment.
Jeff, thank you.
We reviewed your application.
Very impressive.
And before we start the process, what we do is we ask for salary expectations.
So let's just go ahead and start off with your salary expectations.
Yeah, Kwame, thank you so much for that.
And I come in with the understanding that this is absolutely a question you have to ask, but I'm really looking to learn a little bit more about the team and the role before providing those expectations.
OK, well, that makes sense.
And I think that's completely reasonable.
It just puts me in a tough spot because this is part of our policy.
It just helps us to move forward and just kind of check that box.
So I understand what you said.
That makes a lot of sense.
But if you could just give us a number, then we could move on.
Yeah, so I just want to throw this back to you if it's okay.
Since I'm in California and this is a California-based role, can you provide the salary range for me please?
So that's so good.
Okay.
This is so good because it's a test of my imagination.
Let's keep on going.
So let's make up some numbers here.
All right.
So in this situation, what we're looking for as a realistic salary range would be something between 170 and about 190000.
Okay.
And just to clarify, just so I'm clear, that is the base salary range.
Is that correct?
That is correct.
Okay.
Can you tell me a little bit more about the other parts of the compensation?
Do you have a yearly annual bonus?
Do you provide equity sign-on bonuses?
Can you tell me a little bit more about the overall compensation package?
Well, we have a little bit more flexibility on the overall comp.
Those are more based on our determinations of whether or not somebody is eligible for those type of things.
So we have done salary bonuses as sign on bonuses in the past.
Not something we typically do, but we have done that full benefits in terms of health insurance and things like that.
Equity we don't offer equity at this time for this level of position, but that is something that might be a potential down the road.
Okay, can you tell me at what level you start giving equity to employees?
Is that at the director level, vp level?
Are you able to share that information with me?
Jeff, unfortunately I'm not able to share that information because I have run out of imagination for this hypothetical
No, this is so good.
This is so good.
So let me give a couple of insights here before I pass it on to you, because there are some nuances that you will see that I probably miss in this overview.
So here, first of all, infinitely respectful, very reasonable.
And listeners.
I really want to demonstrate that Jeff was setting a very hard barrier but he softened it with his approach, with the rapport and decorum that he was bringing to the conversation.
So the delivery was masterful.
So I just want to recognize that tone and delivery is important in this process.
The next thing is he utilized curiosity to gather information to move him forward in the negotiation, but also as a shield for my continued advances.
And so what you'll recognize is I was starting off asking the questions and then, in a very respectful and subtle way, he started interviewing me and started asking me for the information I was trying to get from him.
So, just like on the surface, the surface level analysis, there's so much that listeners can get from this.
But I want to give it to you, too, to add on to that, too.
Yeah.
And notice that it was all around graciousness and kindness.
And then we I always go back to my Chris Voss, like late night DJ voice.
Right.
And I have my mic set up to dark mode.
So it will make me sound a little bit deeper anyway.
But the reality is, is.
Slow and gracious and kind, just really thoughtful.
And then it's almost the simplest statements are so impactful.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
I understand.
Can you tell me a little more?
And you can see my voice goes down.
I got a little softer, a little slower and and just these little basic things.
And i'm sure you talk endlessly with people about pitch and tone.
Pitch and tone and negotiation is three-fourths of the battle at least.
Yes yes, yes.
Because again, we can get so caught up in the strategies and the tactics what to say but we don't often talk about how to say it.
And less is more in negotiation.
Because when you're feeling that power, that pressure, you feel compelled to say more and more and more and more.
But when you slow down, it takes pressure off of you because you're not trying to say more.
You can say less with more impact and create a connection while gathering information and setting boundaries.
And it's again the simplest thing, but often it's the simple things that we overlook in the moment.
Absolutely.
Yes.
Now let's talk about the pressure.
Now, let's just acknowledge the fact that, For many people, these are the most impactful, some of the most important, but also the most pressure-packed conversations that we can have.
And so people are going to have to perform under pressure.
And so what advice do you have for people when it comes to managing your emotions under pressure, so you can actually perform when it matters most?
Yeah, so here's the great news it's only in maybe rare circumstances that initial conversations where comp would come up would be done via video.
Almost always, it's still almost always primarily phone, so the way we reduce anxiety is a script, and so, with all my negotiation clients, I tell them to say no to video conversations, only phone conversations, so that they can
And of course, with the interviews, that's going to most of them are still to date video.
But with a phone conversation, you can just say, oh, I can't hop on video.
I'm in between places.
Can we just hop on a phone call?
But really, they're in a.
Very solid place to have the conversation.
And they have a script not only with the set anchor, but with objection handling.
And so much of that script, and I'm sure we can dive deeper into this, but so much of that script is.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
And then when we get into really negotiating the numbers, I'd really appreciate it if you advocate for me, partner with me, support me.
Right.
And so you get all these really positive words to use.
But absolutely, a script just removes a lot of the ambiguity for how to respond.
You actually have an outline of how you are going to answer and tackle those questions.
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I love the fact that we don't need to learn any complex negotiation jargon for this.
We can go back to what our parents have been telling us since we were children.
Please and thank you.
Still works in this situation.
And now let's get into scripts just briefly.
Because when people see a script, they might think, Hollywood, everything is scripted.
They say this, I say that.
And then if it goes off track, then I'm completely lost.
And so, when it comes to scripting these conversations, what are the things that people often misunderstand about scripting?
That holds them back?
It's understanding that probably repetition is okay.
I think they get scared to give similar responses, and and so when i work with my negotiation clients, basically i say we're not really changing a lot of the script.
And I actually use those three words we mentioned.
So most of my clients are going into big tech.
So their point of contact is a recruiter and recruiters are not incentivized to hold back money.
So we can talk and use words like advocate and partner and support, but it's intentionally repetitive because it means that we are not moving from our positions.
And so when all these objections come through, I say just get repetitive with what you said before, but just move out a word, change a couple, the order of a couple words, but you're basically saying the same thing.
Go get me that money and get it for me now in the nicest way possible.
This is good.
And I love the fact that you advocate for repetition, because I think it's one of the most underutilized negotiation strategies.
They on message.
But what if they ask the same question again?
If they ask you the same question, it's the same answer.
That's not your fault.
So don't feel bad about that.
And so repetition is really important.
A lot of times as negotiators, sometimes we test people.
So we'll ask one thing one way, we'll ask it another way.
I'm going to try to figure out a way to soften this boundary that you put up.
But if you just say, yeah, I don't feel obligated to entertain you by spicing up my responses.
The response is the response.
And if you ask the same thing, I'm going to give the same. response and that's it.
I think really empowering people to be repetitive on these key issues is really, really helpful, because you can confidently state your position and stay on message without having to adopt that extra mental load of digging deep into your bag of trips, of saying the same thing in a different way when it's not necessary.
Stay on messages is the perfect piece of advice.
Absolutely agree with that.
And there can also be that piece of space.
If that person just absolutely goes a little crazy on you.
The goal would be to build the space and say I'd really like to think about it.
Maybe we can connect tomorrow.
Let's take a look at our schedules, find a time for us to connect.
And I just have to mention it before we hop off.
I'd also really appreciate, if you can in that time, if you could advocate for me, I'd really appreciate it.
And so you're putting in that kind of final poke.
But again, if they do get to some level of rigidity at some point in the negotiation, you want to build in that space.
I am and believe that space can be incredibly valuable in negotiations.
Yes.
And sometimes that space does the work for you because you might run into that rigidity.
And that simply might be because they did not consider what you said in this negotiation.
And so they don't feel safe accepting or adjusting without giving it fair consideration.
So sometimes, when you start to run into a barrier, don't feel obligated or pressured to close the deal right now because it might not be possible to close the deal right now.
Psychologically, they may not be at a point where they're willing to adjust at this level.
And so sometimes, like you said, the best thing you could do is just say hey, I think we've made some progress, let's follow through tomorrow.
And sometimes they organically make that adjustment and start the conversation with that adjustment and that space.
Did that work for you?
So I love that advice just injecting a little bit of time.
That can be all you need in some of these conversations.
Yeah.
And remember for anybody who's listening, who's considering negotiating a job offer a lot of times your point of contact is not the decision maker.
So we actually have have to build space for them to go talk to the decision makers to see if they can get more money.
And I just historically have not seen, especially if we talk about the big companies.
For example, recruiters are not incentivized to hold back money from their candidates.
The candidate actually is a sale for them.
It's a number, it's a check mark that they need to complete within a month, a quarter, a year, etc.
So they want to get you that money if they can, because it makes you easier to close.
So, but they need to go back and speak to the decision makers.
So if they get really fired up in the in the moment, it's just a good idea to build space so that they can say All right,
I don't like Jeff.
But now that we've hopped off, let me go back to the decision makers one more time and just see if I can get a 10000 sign on bonus, or see if we can add just 50K in equity, because with that space they can at least decide that they're going to take that additional step which usually they will.
Oh, this is an unexpected gem.
Let me take a slightly selfish turn in this conversation.
So in a few days, I'm flying to LA to do training for a team of recruiters.
And so for recruiters who are going to be working with the candidate, Would it be beneficial for them to almost coach the candidate on how it would be best for them to work with the recruiter?
Oh, 100 percent.
Recruiters should always recruiters should take ownership.
I mean, I think it's a little bit of a challenge in the industry for recruiters.
But if recruiters set everything up on the front end for how things work, from the interview process to negotiation to the end pieces, they'd be creating a better candidate experience, and with a better candidate experience, the candidate is more likely to accept the job.
So setting these things up front is really important, but At the same time I encourage recruiters to aggressively go after salary expectations in the initial conversations, because that's going to be beneficial for them to return to later on.
Now, my job is to root for the candidate.
Right.
But if I was a recruiter and when I was and I recruited for about 15 years.
I was so aggressive and I used again.
We brought in a Chris Voss trick, but I also use a Tony Robbins trick when I ask about salary expectations and they say I don't know.
And I just say, well, if you did know, what would it be?
No, that's good.
And that's the Tony one that I learned years ago, that I still use to this day or had used in the past.
And I think that one works really effectively.
But 99 of the time I did get their comp expectations or salary range expectations, because I pushed aggressively.
But again, in a gracious and kind way, I built the safe space.
I would tell recruiters to try and get those numbers if they can.
Okay, that's good.
That is good.
Yeah, I was interested to hear your perspective on that because the two sides of the equation in it.
This is great.
And I think we touched organically a lot on be gracious and kind, but I want to make sure that we give you time to highlight anchoring.
Give us a brief overview of what anchoring is, this context, and then how can we use it?
Yeah.
And so I think that we could go ahead and use maybe an analogy would be helpful.
So and this is actually a real case study that I wasn't thinking about talking about today.
So let me fumble through it a little bit.
But basically, there was a case study and it's good because it's relevant is real estate.
So they brought in maybe 10 or 20 realtors and they priced a house at 500K.
And of those 10 or 20 realtors, everybody kind of agreed that that was the right price.
They did the same experiment with 10 or 20 other realtors and they priced the house at 600K.
And they all agreed that that was right around the price.
And why? we get very attached to the first number that's introduced to us.
And it's actually psychologically proven that we cannot remove that number from our mind.
So if we want to get paid 80K we think the job pays 80K up to 100K then we're going to go anchor at 120K because the goal is to set this higher tone, this higher number that they're going to get attached to and really believe that that's the number we need to achieve.
There's a lot of things that go into anchoring.
I'll stop there and let you dive in with questions.
But anchoring is all about setting a really high number with the expectation that you'll start a negotiation that they'll bring you down.
But the anchor will be a number we can return to later.
And again, I'll kick it back to you and we can kind of have a discussion around this.
Yeah, this is great.
And my biggest criticism with the negotiation industry, or one of them, is that we don't talk about anchoring enough, because it's not a question of whether or not you should anchor.
It's a reality that Whoever makes the first offer is setting an anchor.
It's only a question of whether or not they're doing it with intentionality, because every other deal or every other offer is going to be compared to that anchor.
So it sets the reference point for the negotiation.
And now people are like, oh, sweet.
OK, great.
So I'm trying to get let's use your example.
At least 80,000, it goes up to 100,000.
I'm going to ask for 120.
Well, let me ask for 600K.
Why not?
I mean, the more the merrier, right?
So let's break down some of the mistakes people make with anchoring, so they could use it with intentionality, in a way that makes it more likely for them to be successful.
There's two really, really critical items here.
One is research.
So if you're able to find online what a company's philosophy around negotiation is without having to ask, that's really beneficial.
So I can tell you, for example, If you were going to go negotiate with Google Amazon Meta Apple, you could anchor at 600000 for a 120K job.
They're not going to rescind the offer because you go with a crazy number.
They're just going to provide more realistic expectations for you.
But if you do that with maybe even a large company or an SMB, they might run for the hills.
They might just say, I'm sorry, we're not aligned.
We're rescinding the offer.
And it can be hard to get that back.
So, within the research, if you're unable to find out what that company's negotiation philosophy is, You have to ask
You can say hey, you're a smaller company or I couldn't find any information online and this is with your point of contact.
What is your company's negotiation philosophy.
Leave it really open-ended so that they can tell you, because there is some risk in anchoring with the wrong company.
So it's a little bit about understanding that philosophy.
And unfortunately, in our research, oftentimes we might have to ask that question.
Yeah, that's great.
That's great.
Because I want to make it clear that they're anchoring gone wrong is a real thing.
And so it has to be realistic.
Because if you go way above and beyond, it shows that you haven't done your homework.
You don't care about our negotiation philosophy, you don't care about what's realistic, you're being a selfish negotiator and uninformed and it diminishes our credibility and makes it hard for us to be persuasive for a likable in that interaction, which makes it less likely for us to be successful.
So it's important to have those parameters.
But when you do your research, feel empowered to make this anchor because if you do your research, you're starting the negotiation off with the highest dollar value that you can reasonably justify with the data that you find.
And then you start the conversation off and now, most likely, they're going to pull back and there's a little bit of give and take.
But again, we've done a great job of starting this conversation off with rapport, creating a strong relationship.
So now we have invested into that relationship, which makes it a little bit more tolerant of the natural give and take that comes with negotiation.
But we've put that toward the And I just Yes, this is a very brief but very important overview on anchoring in the job context, because it's something that people often overlook.
Yeah.
And let's talk about one other item.
Yeah.
It's really powerful in secondary negotiations.
And just to just to kind of double down on that item.
Basically, what I mean by that is oftentimes we come in with this high anchor.
Let's talk about the big tech companies.
That's where I help most of my clients and come in with this big anchor.
Recruiter tells us we're crazy, all these normal things, and then they go back and.
We ask 400,000 and they come back with 280, for example, total comp.
So we're 120K off.
Now we use the anchor to our benefit to look really reasonable.
And we say to our recruiter, Jane, we say, Jane, I think we're making really good progress.
And I just want to say thank you so much for all the work you're putting into this offer.
Uh, if you can meet me in the middle, at 340 K from my initial down from my initial expectation of 400 K, I would strongly consider this offer.
And so we use that anchor as a data point in future negotiations and we start to look reasonable, even though our anchor was completely not reasonable.
So it's a really fun tactic and it's one that I use oftentimes and it works.
It makes sense, it starts to make the candidate look incredibly reasonable when again, their initial anchor probably wasn't that reasonable.
Yes.
And again going back to that tool of being gracious and kind you know, being a good human in these situations blending that with the contrast principle of the anchor, the initial starting point, and where we actually are.
The more you reference that, the more reasonable you become because you say yes, my initial offer was 400000.
I'm willing to flex on that.
I find ways to reference my anchor throughout the negotiation multiple times, because it makes it seem more real and makes my adjustment seem more significant as well.
So just recognize when Jeff said, yes, 400,000, that was with intentionality.
That's part of the strategy.
The more you reference anchor, the more real it becomes.
Absolutely.
Oh, this is good.
Jeff, this is great.
Listen.
I think a lot of listeners are saying to themselves okay, I think I need some Jeff in my life.
And maybe I'm looking for a specific AI tool that might be coming out in three weeks.
Do you have anything that you could give them?
That could help them with that.
Thank you so much for that.
Yeah.
So basically, I've spent the last six months building a tool that and I won't be the only one on the market
And basically, it's an AI tool that helps you improve your interview answers.
I feel so excited about the tool because I've done 2500 one on one coaching sessions, interview coaching sessions over the last five years.
And I learned so much from people who are listening to this podcast.
They continued to show me what a good answer sounded like.
And so yeah, it sits on chat GPT, but it's really going to dive in and give people actionable advice.
Instead of giving this overview with very cookie cutter or broad advice, it's intended to help people fix parts of their answers in little bite sizes so that somebody could use the app for five or 10 minutes and feel like they got somewhere.
Feel like they improve.
So the launch date is February 26th.
And I say that with dev always being a little scary.
But I've put that date out there.
If it needs to get pushed, that's OK.
Anybody who's curious about finding out more about it, it's just practiceinterviews.com.
They can click on the AI button.
We're allowing early adopters on there to test it for free.
And then if people want to give us user feedback.
We're really excited about that.
I do one-on-one interview and one-on-one negotiation coaching.
And obviously I also have a interview mastery course and all of that's at practiceinterviews.com.
Jeff, this was an absolute masterclass, my friend.
Really appreciate you coming in and sharing your wisdom with us.
Kwame, I am just, I feel so grateful to you for inviting me.
So thank you so much.
My pleasure.
You've just heard one powerful perspective and now we're moving on to the next.
A fresh voice with a new angle on the same challenge so you can keep expanding your skills.
Let's dive in.
Sam, thanks for joining us today.
It's good to be here.
Thanks for having me Kwame.
It is my pleasure.
So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Yeah, absolutely.
So my name is Sam Struan.
I'm a talent acquisition or recruitment professional.
I've been in the industry for about 10 years, working in both executive search agency environments or leading internal talent acquisition teams, and now most of my focus is working with individuals, job seekers in particular, or individuals that are looking to make significant changes to their career in terms of compensation.
So my two main focuses are at resume writing and being a salary negotiation coach.
I love it.
And everybody make sure you follow Sam, because this is the first ever installment of people you should follow on LinkedIn.
So that's how I found Sam, just dropping incredible incredibly high quality content on LinkedIn.
So we're going to link to his profile in the description of this episode and we're going to change it up a little bit with this episode.
We're going to start off by talking about two of Sam's most popular posts and just kind of analyzing why it resonated with the audience.
And then we're going to talk about counter proposals in salary negotiation, a very narrow element of the compensation negotiation that is often overlooked.
So I'm super excited to get into this.
So Sam, how about you set the stage with this first viral post that you made that was, let's say, replicated by many people in the industry afterwards?
And when people start doing what you just did, that's a good sign.
So can you set the stage with that post?
Yeah, absolutely.
I say that in hoping that the main person to come up with it and hopefully I've not plagiarized it, but it seems like nothing's new nowadays.
Yeah, the post that you're referring to was a very short post, but I think it resonated with people because the essence of the post was putting the candidate in the driving seat.
And I think that's often not the case when it comes to the recruitment and hiring process is we're very much subject to how companies and recruiters and hiring managers want to behave.
So the post, in essence, the main thing, was when it comes to answering early stage salary questions, which there are multiple options, but this in particular, was when you decide to give a range, and it basically said you know, the key point was never say i'm looking to make 150 to 170 000 or whatever your number is.
Instead, say i'm currently interviewing for positions that pay 150 to 170 000.
And that's when you're asked you know what's your salary requirement.
And if you decide to give a range, and the reason being is when you say something like hey, i'm looking to make 150 to 170 000.
That's a very aspirational statement.
I want, I hope, I'm looking.
And it can be interpreted as I'm hoping to make 150, but I'm currently earning less.
Whereas when you say something like I'm currently interviewing for positions that pay 150 to 170000, This is situational saying I'm currently interviewing and also tells the interviewer that the market is saying that you're worth 150 to 170 or again, whatever your number is, but also that you're in demand from other companies and that it's human nature to want what others want.
But also, by putting in early in the conversation that you are having multiple discussions, this will actually help you when it comes to negotiating your offer and is a key component in the counter offer process.
This is a gem and we're at almost a thousand episodes of the podcast.
This is something I'm into this, right?
I've never heard this one before.
It's so powerful.
It is really powerful.
And so I want you to dig deeper into the psychology of this.
What is the impact that it has on the person who's saying it, but also the person who is hearing it?
Yeah absolutely, and i'll actually share.
No one really knows this, but this actually came from.
This was a throwaway post that came from a conversation with a friend.
A friend of mine was really uncomfortable talking salary to numbers and was in the middle of a job search.
And I very casually asked him.
I said when you were speaking with this company, and they said what's your salary requirement?
What did you say?
And he said, oh, I said, I'm looking to make X to Y salary.
And my immediate thought was like, dude, that sounds like aspirational.
It sounds like I know you're earning less and it sounds like you're earning less.
And I coached him and I said, look, I need you to cut that out of your vocabulary.
You're not looking for anything currently interviewing for positions x to y.
So he used that then moving forward and i thought i'll just throw that up on linkedin again throw away post, thinking it wouldn't get too much interest, but it obviously struck a chord with individuals.
Now i think you mentioned the psychology or how it changes things for the individual is.
Many people have told me they feel more confident saying that statement when asked that question.
It gives them confidence to answer the question.
It gives them clarity.
But also i think when it comes to salary and answering questions, a lot of it is communication is obviously what you save is how you see it, how someone sees what they're actually looking at.
So i think there's all those unspoken forms of communication that can come through when you have a statement like that behind you Bingo.
You're spot on.
And the thing is, it sounds stronger.
It sounds more confident.
And we have to remember, just at the end of the day, we are social primates and we are designed to look for higher
And we are constantly evaluating situations and individuals for strength versus weakness status prestige, those type of things.
And It sounds shallow and it is.
And at the same time, it is just a reality of our psychology.
So we have to be mindful of not just what we say, but how we say it.
The presentation is part of the persuasive process.
And if we miss out on these little nuances, then the person isn't going to have that same level of regard for us, for you.
And as a result, they might say, that sounds cute.
I hope you eventually get to that number.
But I know you seem like the kind of person who would accept less.
And a lot of times, just because of the way that we approach the negotiation, we can inadvertently invite more aggressive negotiation tactics from the other person because they feel they can get away with it.
What you said, oh, that's cute.
I hope you get that.
That might be the reaction of someone.
That may be someone's internal reaction, if you say oh well, I'm looking to make 150 to 170 versus.
Yeah sure, I'm actually currently interviewing for positions that pay 150 to 70.
Total, different delivery anything.
The part of the reason that i write so much on linkedin is i want to really empower as many people as possible to feel confident in the job search.
I also feel like organizations, corporations.
There's always been this long-standing imbalance of power where candidates are really at the mercy of what a company wants to offer, how someone wants to behave, and anything that i can do to kind of balance that or make people feel a little bit more empowered or in control of their search.
Take my stuff, you know go earn the most that you can make a difference to your family.
Make a difference.
You're earning trajectory your income like.
I'm all for that, Absolutely.
And this gives us an opportunity to revisit one of the things you said at the beginning, because you said, a response like this puts the candidate in the driver's seat.
And then just now you said a lot of times, because of the imbalance, we're at the mercy of these corporations.
And this is one of those little things that allows us to rebalance that.
So I want to explore that term, that phrase, put the candidate in the driver's seat.
I think this is so powerful and I don't want people to overlook this too.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think throughout the many stages of the interview process or the hiring process or job seeking process from initially writing your resume, applying for a job, waiting on interviews, multiple interviews, counter offers, like i mentioned there's a real imbalance there at times.
But i do think that with each step there are things that job seekers and candidates can do to really control the narrative and control the outcome of their search.
And this is just an example of a very small tweak that can have significant differences, and i find that throughout the search process it does sometimes come down to just small tweaks how you say something, how you reword something on your resume or your linkedin profile, or later on, when we talk about counter off.
At the end of the day, we're just asking for more money.
That's what it can be brought down to.
How you do it, the nuances and the little tweaks can make a significant difference.
And anything that I can do to kind of share those minor tweaks or little differences that make, that will kind of move the needle for someone or give an element of empowerment or confidence to someone.
I think that's really important.
Absolutely.
And a lot of it comes down to preparation too.
So we shouldn't be surprised when these types of questions come up.
And the more prepared we are, the more confident we'll sound in our response.
And I think that gives us an opportunity to revisit that other post.
The second post that I wanted to highlight, where the person asks the question what are your salary expectations?
So let's break down that question.
First of all, let's just talk about the game behind the game that the person asking the question is playing.
Usually when someone asks if the company hasn't posted the job salary range in the job advert.
Usually when someone asks what are your salary expectations?
There's a few reasons.
Number one is they want to know how well do you know your professional worth?
They just want to know how well.
If a new graduate is asking for 200000, there's maybe a misalignment there, where they're not asking for a realistic salary based on their experience.
How well do you know your worth?
Roughly, are you at appropriate professional level?
And obviously, they want to know if they can afford you.
A recruiter is unlikely going to move forward with a candidate who is asking for 60000 more than what they've been given as a budget.
But if it's within five to 10,000, there might be wiggle room.
Unfortunately, this conversation, I would say, is the predominant thing that happens when it comes to interviews is candidates don't have salary information at the time of applying, and then you know a hiring manager or recruiter will ask what are your salary expectations.
So i would say that's the most common scenario.
When it comes to asking for money, there's a lot of advice on how you should respond to this, ranging from give a range, give a number deflect, ask them what their budget is.
And a lot of people will say this is the only route you should take.
But my argument would be you actually have multiple options when you're asked what are your salary expectations.
And it could be any one of those aforementioned paths.
But it also all depends on your professional situation and where you sitting here taking all of these notes.
I love it.
And now this is both empowering and then for some it might also be overwhelming recognizing that there are even more options than we originally thought when it comes to this really crucial question.
So, as people are determining how to respond to this, given their specific situation, what are some of the things that people should keep in mind as they're going through this analysis and their preparation?
Sure thing.
What I can do is maybe share the paths that I would potentially take, depending on the situation that I'm in.
So you're right, what are your salary expectations?
There are multiple options and it can be overwhelming to decide which path should I take and which is appropriate.
But sharing maybe on some personal experiences from myself and working with clients.
Here's just a few examples that might be useful to anyone listening.
So i mentioned there's a few options and that was give a range, give a number or deflecting and potentially asking for the company's budget, and you can essentially do all three.
But my own approach would depend kind of where i am in terms of leverage and the situation that I'm in.
So quick example is I would give a range if I knew what the position paid and I was trying to maximise my salary.
So let's say the job advert said the range is $130,000 to $150,000.
Then in that scenario, if I was asked, what are your salary expectations?
I would say something like I'm currently interviewing for positions that pay 145000 to 165000.
I would basically want my bottom number to come in just below their top number and then my top number would exceed their budget and that would ensure and signal to them that they're going to have to offer at the top end of their budget in order to meet my salary requirements.
So you're still falling within their budget but you're narrowing the gap that they can offer you to ensure that you get the top end of the budget.
I would do that typically.
I say i would take that route because i feel confident negotiating.
I feel confident that even if i didn't meet all the requirements, i would be able to address those through thorough interview preparation and i would take that bet on myself.
You might not be able to do that if you don't meet all the requirements and you feel like you might be up against other candidates that have a lot more experience or maybe you're not fully confident in or a bit more junior in your career, in which case you can modify that range to still fall with their range.
But typically most people that i work with are like i want to maximize my earning capacity.
I want to be able to do what i can.
So that is an example of when I would give a range is if I knew what the position paid or I knew I'm not earning less than 130 to 150, like 130 is my absolute minimum.
So I'm going to go above.
So that is one option.
This is great.
I love that one because it gives you an opportunity to be flexible.
It gives you a little bit of wiggle room, but it sends a strong signal to the other side of what it is that you are willing to accept.
So don't try that lower range type of stuff. with me in this situation.
But it requires you to know the numbers and do your research.
You can negotiate more confidently and more assertively when you have a more realistic expectation of what those numbers are.
So sometimes when you're applying for a job, you can see it.
You can see the pay band.
It's very clear.
What do you think people could do to try to get that information in their research process so they could make this more assertive?
Type of initial offer.
Absolutely.
And you touched upon the key thing, which is research.
Typically, if I was to give a range, I've definitely conducted market research on what similar roles might pay at similar sized organizations.
If we're talking in the US market.
Given that quite a few states have salary transparency regulations where employers have to post a range, it's really helpful.
If you're in a state where there is no requirement, then you could look at jobs in other states to find out.
Okay, this is roughly what they're paying.
That's real market data because...
A software engineer in X states the range is this, so you can use that as a data point.
Obviously, the average cost of a home varies per state, but it's still a valid data point.
It's within the country, it's the same currency, similar organizations.
I guess the key opponents of taking, of giving a range is what if you gave a range of 130 to 150, but their budget was 160 to 180?
So they might offer you 160, but you've actually like 150 sorry, but you've actually left 30 000 on the table because they were their budget.
Now that's obviously a risk.
It's an even higher risk if you don't know how to negotiate.
And usually you can determine if you think you've left money on the table or if their budget is higher when you go through multiple interview rounds, because you truly understand the size of the scope and you get more information that you don't have early on in the process.
In that scenario which I've been in, where I've given a range and then later on they definitely have more budget.
And also the role is much larger in scope than I originally thought.
You can negotiate more.
You just need to discuss what's changed.
And we can talk about that later on, when it comes to a counteroffer as well is how to ask for more money when you've already given a range.
Oh, that's great.
That is great.
And now I need to establish a little bit of restraint because I really want to jump to that now.
But there's one other element.
I wanted to talk about the times where it might be more strategically sound to either deflect or ask for their budget.
Absolutely yeah.
So that was the other great option.
One of the other options that someone can take is to deflect and ask what the company's budget is.
But if you take this route, you have to do it quite sensitively or delicately or strategically so, and i would typically say that people who can ask for a number more easily are ones that are happily employed, or perhaps the organization has approached them as headhunted or directly approached them, or perhaps you know that there's just absolutely no way that you're going to go below a number.
Yeah sure.
Kwame, you mentioned about deflecting and asking what the company's budget is.
And I would perhaps take that route if I knew that I was in high demand, or perhaps I knew that I fit what they were looking for.
And I would definitely deflect and ask if I was earlier on in the stage or given very few details about the role and perhaps I haven't had time to do market research or I've not found the market research that I'm looking for.
So in this situation where someone says, what are your salary requirements or expectations?
I don't want to give an answer.
I want to find out what their budget is.
I'd say something like, Thank you for asking.
I would be happy to discuss compensation after I've learned a little bit more about the position and conduct some additional market research.
Alternatively, can you share what has been preliminary budgeted for the role?
So that's just the polite way to deflect.
If I was unemployed, I didn't want to give a range.
Then I would tweak my messaging, because when you're unemployed and when you get asked about salary, your biggest fear is either coming in too low or coming in too high, pricing yourself out of the conversation or leaving significant amount of money on the table.
So in that situation, I would deflect and ask, but I would say something like, thanks for asking.
I would be open to a range that reflects the market rate for positions like this.
From my initial research, I've noticed this range can be anywhere from 90,000 to 120,000.
How does this align with what the company has budgeted for the role?
Now, the key thing about an answer like this Kwame, is you're saying that you're open to a range that reflects market research or market rate.
You're saying I still want to be paid fairly.
And then you're not saying my range is 90 to 120.
You're saying from the research i've conducted i've noticed it can range from x to y.
So you yourself are not committing to a range.
You're saying the range i've noticed is over here.
How does yours compare to that?
So i think that is better than kind of saying i'm open to anything And my range is 90 to 120, which is quite a wide range.
That can signal to someone that you'll go as low as 90, but you're really hoping for 120.
It makes a lot of sense.
And I love the fact that we are tweaking the messaging for the circumstance so they're going to be sometimes where you have a little bit more leverage and security.
So if i'm happily employed and i'm not looking for something and you're trying to court me, you need to give me more information in order for me to feel interested in this, because the status quo works for me, but there's something in you that makes you want me, so Give me the information first.
Right.
And of course, you're saying it in a more diplomatic way than that.
But that's essentially the ethos behind it.
But then if we're unemployed, recognizing that our position isn't as strong because our alternative isn't as strong, so we can utilize the same approach but in a more deferential type of way.
So you're not saying, hey, this isn't me asking for this.
I've just seen other people get.
So where are you on that?
And I think that would be more well received by the party on the other side.
So I love the fact that we are still utilizing the same fundamental negotiation principles and strategies, but just acknowledging that, given the circumstances and given your position and the power dynamics at play, it will Definitely
I think that's what's missed out in a lot of advice.
When it comes to answering that question is the routes that you take really does depend on your leverage and exactly what you said your alternative situation.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, this is good.
And now, with the time we have left, I want to make sure that we can talk about negotiation counter proposals because again, this is a critical part of the compensation negotiation process but often overlooked.
So, first of all, let's start off by just talking about what it is that we're talking about with negotiation counter proposals and why this element is so important sure thing, Kwame.
So what we've done is we've spent a lot of time talking about early stage salary questions and how to navigate those, and the reason I wanted to bring that up is because that's really when salary negotiation begins, is early on in the process.
As soon as you're asked what are your salary expectations, you need to set the stage for you to allow yourself to negotiate down the line.
So that's why it's really important to start focusing on those questions.
But where we are and what the topic is today, or what we're moving on to, is the counter offer or the counter offer process, where a company has provided you with a job offer, either verbally, in writing, and you want to negotiate that offer, and that is what we're going to be discussing is how to put together a strategic counter offer to hopefully either maximize your earnings or give you the best kind of working relationship that you're looking for.
I love it, and let's start off by having a little bit of fun.
Sam, and i know what you're thinking but kwame, i've been having so much fun, but Exactly,
I have been having so much fun.
Let's start off by talking about some of the biggest mistakes people make at this point, before we start talking about the best practices.
Sure thing.
I think the biggest mistakes that I see.
This is usually when someone has tried to negotiate an offer and it's not gone well and then they come to me and say like i didn't get what i wanted.
What do i do from here?
Not a great situation for me.
It's kind of like when someone builds something in your home and someone does a really bad job and like, coming in builders fix.
They hate fixing other people's mistakes, but usually the biggest mistakes that i see are individuals not having a structure, of a proper structure to their counter offer, whether it's in writing or verbally, or bringing in personal feelings or circumstances.
Personal feeling like i feel, After 10 years of X Y Z, I am worth this, or I am looking to save up for a down payment and buy a home.
I feel I am, you know, can we can I have more?
These are personal feelings or situations which, quite frankly, are not the organization's problem.
It's not the company's problem.
It's not the company's responsibility to help you buy a house.
So those are some of the biggest mistakes is remove anything personal, any feelings or situations, or partners or spouses, husbands and wives, their personal opinions.
Don't bring any of that to the table.
A counter offer and negotiation should always be about the value that you bring to the organization from your skill sets and your experience.
This is so strong because a lot of times we have to recognize that there is a difference between a strategic thought and emotional thought.
And the emotional thoughts are often going to be louder in our head, because sometimes people are in this position where they're negotiating salary, especially when they haven't done it before, where they're at their wit's end.
They're like, you know what?
I deserve this.
I haven't been paid the right way.
Jerry over in accounting is making more than me.
Are you kidding me?
And now my wife is telling me I should be making at least as much as Jerry.
And so we bring all of that baggage in and then we make that offer to the other side, focused on those feelings.
And the person is like, you know what?
That sounds like a you problem, because that doesn't help us make any money, which is the core function of this business.
And so it takes a lot of emotional restraint withhold something that is really, really key to what is bringing you to the negotiation table to make sure that we are persuading from their perspective.
What is it that would actually be meaningful for them in this conversation?
And a lot of the things that are most central to us coming to the negotiation table don't matter as much to the other side.
And so we have to temper that enthusiasm with a little bit of restraint and think a little bit more strategically and speak a little bit more strategically as well.
Definitely.
I think I always have to remind people that the negotiation isn't between you and the person, that's between you and the company, and think about what the company as a separate entity wants.
So that's one of the key things.
And what I can discuss as well so that your audience and anyone listening has an actual structure to go away with, is a five step counteroffer structure which has helped one of my clients negotiate an extra 50000 in salary.
That's actually my record is helping someone get an extra 50K on top of an offer.
Really proud of that.
But the recommendation that I have and the final one, the final step in this five step counteroffer structure that I'm about to share,
I'd say the final step is what 99% of people fail to do.
So the recommendation if someone gets an offer that they want to negotiate and they want to respond via counteroffer, These are the five steps that I recommend.
The first is to confirm interest and gratitude.
You want to show that you're still very interested in this role and gratitude can counter kind of perceptions of greed.
You're asking for more money, more vacation, more bonus.
You don't want to come across as greedy.
So gratitude is a great counter to that.
So that's step one is confirm interest and gratitude.
And then what you want to do is recall some of the company's pain points.
You want to reframe their pain points as goals to achieve.
And you will know this from the interview process.
So an example is if I'm interviewing and the company says we're struggling to get candidates and we need to grow 30 over this year, we can't find enough staff to fulfill our service.
Then you want to reframe those pain points as goals that you're going to achieve by saying something like throughout the interview process.
I was really interested in learning that the company is looking to grow and source more skilled candidates for this line of business.
So you want to reframe those pain points.
Your third step is reiterating your experience, fixing those pain points or showing you as the solution by reiterating some of your key experiences that help alleviate those company problems.
Then obviously you want to make the ask, whether it's salary bonus, vacation.
Quick tip is if you want to negotiate three points, negotiate all three points at once.
Don't negotiate one, get a yes, then bring up another point, get a yes, bring up another point.
That will result in negotiation fatigue on both parts.
So if you have multiple asks, ask for one.
So steps one to four, just as a quick summary before I give you.
Step five is number one was confirm interest and gratitude.
Number two was reframe their pain points as goals that you are excited about meeting.
Three was reiterating your experience fixing those pain points.
Number four was making the ask for what you want.
And then number five, which I would say is one of the most key things, is closing the employer.
A lot of people will make the ask and say, would you consider an increase to 180,000?
Thanks, I look for your response.
But you need to close the employer and closing involves you've made an ask for something more salary, more vacation, more bonus.
You have to offer something in return, something to sweeten the deal or to incentivize them to really offer what you want.
And one of the things that candidates can offer is assurance.
An example of this is once you've gone through steps one to four and said would the company consider 180000 an extra week of vacation?
Here's my market research that reflects this.
I would say, if company consider this, i would feel more comfortable withdrawing from other interview processes and also prepare to provide notice at my current company.
So what you're saying is if you can come close to this number, consider this number.
Whatever this package is, what i'm going to give you in return is I'm going to pull out of other interviews.
I'm also going to start to give notice at my current company.
So you're putting the offer in your shoes of like, oh, OK, like this person's serious.
They're going to give notice.
If you're unemployed, then you can say I would feel more comfortable formally withdrawing from other interview processes.
Now, if anyone's been listening from the start of this podcast, one of the earliest things that i mentioned was always saying i am currently interviewing for positions that pay x to y, and the reason that statement is doubly powerful is because now in the negotiation, that is your bargaining chip, that you are saying I will formally withdraw from other interview processes, which you referenced at the start of the interview process.
So that is a powerful closer.
Wow.
This is some high level stuff, man.
And you even brought in a little bit of Inception, referencing one of my favorite movies there.
Incepted them at the beginning by confidently stating your range and the fact that you're exploring other offers.
Oh man, this is a masterclass.
I really appreciate this.
And again, I just really want to make sure the listeners really feel on a visceral level how powerful this is, because 50000 that you helped this person earn it was salary that they could have claimed.
And if they didn't, the company would have just given them a lower offer and they would have been performing at that level.
But there's money on the table that we deserve that we should go for.
So you should ask for it.
And then, when you think about compound interest, it's 50000 increased this year, but that's 100000 next year, and then on into perpetuity.
And then when you consider that every ceiling is a new floor, which means that you're going to negotiate from that level onward we're talking about over the course of somebody's life this is millions of dollars right, especially when you consider investment opportunities and things like that.
So i just want to reiterate that for the listeners out there who are negotiating the salary now you have a framework, no more excuses.
It's time to get moving.
And then, of course, if you need more inspiration, Follow Sam on LinkedIn, because he's constantly dropping these gems.
So Sam, I want to give you the floor to say any parting words and let listeners know how they can connect.
Yeah, huge.
Thank you for inviting me on this.
I really appreciate it and hope those points that have been brought up in the podcast really help any listeners.
And the reason i'm so passionate about this area is because when i learned to properly negotiate an offer and got what i felt i deserved but also it was a significant increase and that led to a lot of positive lifestyle changes or the ability.
It wasn't about buying fancy things and two main things that I invested in.
Number one was that I was able to upgrade my mum's kitchen, which brought me so much joy to be able to express gratitude and pay someone back or help someone.
And personally, I was able to invest in counselling.
Those are the things that I think earning more or being able to tap into additional resources can really elevate someone's life.
So it's not necessarily about money buying more happiness, but money enabling as opportunities to find more happiness.
So thank you again for having me on your podcast.
I appreciate it.
Hey, my pleasure.
Thanks again for joining us.
That's the power of a masterclass.
One topic, multiple lenses, and real world application.
And now the question is, what will you do with it?
Negotiation isn't theory.
It's practice.
It's self-awareness.
It's choosing courage over comfort.
So pick one insight today and apply it in your next conversation, because skill doesn't come from listening.
It comes from doing.
I'll catch you in the next one.
Hey, if you're still here, that means you really like this episode.
So why don't you leave us a review?
Five stars, please.
That really means the world to us and it helps other people find the show.
And now, I will catch you later.
