Discussion keeps the world turning.
This is Roundtable.
You're listening to Roundtable with myself, He Young.
I'm joined by Steve Hatherly and Yushan in the studio.
Coming up, we see it all the time.
A friend shares a great hotpot place.
An influencer posts about their must -have skin care routine.
Or someone casually recommends a gadget in a vlog.
But here's the question.
Should posts on WeChat moments or live stream promotions, even if casual or personal, be treated as commercial advertisements?
Where should regulators draw the line and need a boost to crush the week?
Our special segment Motivational Monday is your ultimate adrenaline shot to kick things off strong.
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Now let's switch gears.
Have you ever shared a great meal online by posting a quick review video without thinking twice?
Well, recently in Shandong province in Eastern China, a woman did just that she posted a food recommendation video on douyin china's tiktok talking about a dish served at her own restaurant but soon after she was fined 40 okay 480 000 yuan six digits that's a lot of money and that's about uh 62 $2 ,700 for allegedly violating advertising laws.
She insisted the video was just a personal post shared on her own account with no sales link, no commercial tag.
Fortunately, the fine was later revoked and the officials responsible were suspended.
Oh, really? Yes, I suppose maybe that That staggering amount of fine really just pushed social media off the edge.
And then there was really a backfiring of responses.
So still, the case raised a bigger question.
When does personal sharing cross the line into advertising?
This recent case is part of a growing list of disputes where personal posts or casual casual promotions, have landed people or companies in hot water.
Which cases stood out for you?
For me, one case would be the one in 2020, in December 2020, sorry, 2022, where a Shanghai -based sales director of a company was fined for 100 ,000 yuan, and that's roughly 14 ,000 US dollars, because he promoted a product in his personal WeChat moment.
And in that post, he claimed that the product has effects such as spot fading and brightening.
And he also used medical terms such as anti -inflammatory, which of course violated the advertisement law as false advertising and the use of prohibited terms. So back then, this whole case, it sparked up a big amount of discussions in public.
Should promotional, say, activities as such on WeChat moments be considered as commercial advertising.
And a lot of people who were, you know, agreeing with the fine saying that, oh, if you don't clarify things and just, you know, use fancy words to describe your product, people will never really know if you are being paid to do so or if you genuinely are trying to recommend certain product.
Yeah, this kind of case, and that's a big fine, right?
$100 ,000 you false claims were being made, right?
Spot fading, brightening, anti -inflammatory.
For me, that is an example of a case that's a little bit easier to distinguish, you know, what's going on, right?
Because of the terms that were being used.
And the FTC in the United States, the Federal Trade Commission, they enforce those types of rules as well, because you're not allowed to promote products with false or at least unsubstantiated claims on your personal social media.
It's considered generally illegal and it can lead to some pretty serious consequences there.
So the FTC, they enforce their truth.
They call them truth in advertising laws.
And these apply to all different forms of advertising, including social media posts.
But I do have a question here, because I think with WeChat moments, it's a little different from, let's say, a person's Douyin account in the sense that for those who don't live in China, are not familiar with the messaging, or let's call it a Swiss army knife of a super app called WeChat, despite all its multiple functions, it's usually people who you know, your friends, your colleagues, and people you've somehow met, even if it's online.
So, it's usually considered considered as friends who or acquaintances who are following you is it though and it's and it's also a two -way street so you have to follow you have to be befriend each other you don't have to look at each other's friend moments but basically it's not to just the public it's not like anybody anybody is added on your wechat moment so it's like a it's it's this a confined scope of people yeah I know what you mean I was I was going to say yeah but I get wechat moment updates from businesses right those are businesses where and those are as right right no but I'll I do
this all the time right so let's say you're in a shopping mall or something and you see a shop and you're like oh i might you know get a facial one day this is what i actually did my wife and i were like oh we might come back here and get our nails done so i took this the um what do you call that the qr code thing and i i added them right so i occasionally i'll get updates from them right about their business but that's different right that's different because you're following a public account and i did it right you did it but that doesn't appear here I don't think in your friend moments because for moments it's
one function on WeChat where you have say a certain target audience in your mind and those target audiences are commonly just your acquaintances and your friends and families yeah so that's the thing with WeChat but for other social media platforms such as Douyin or say Weibo here in China it's for the public it's for public Probably.
Everybody can see it whether they're your friend or not.
Yeah, therefore. That's the thing.
That's a great distinction.
Very clear and thoughtful you've made for us, Yushan.
And therefore, for me, I always thought, okay, if I see somebody posting what is obvious, a friend, which is obvious, probably some advertising thing in the friend moments by a friend or an acquaintance, I would think, okay, this is probably to finish that person's KPI.
That person at work probably has been asked to sell stuff to recruit more clients or whatever, and they post it in their friend moments.
Although it can be annoying sometimes, but I try to be understanding and I think, oh, this poor guy just want to feed his family and he has to do this.
So, OK, it's advertising content, but I'll let you pass.
and if it's other stuff like sometimes you do see yeah this person's obviously wanting to sell something even if it looks like something's off but i would just think okay this is lying but it's not it's not for the general public and it's again somebody just has to do this for their job or or to make a living and you have also vdn right those individuals can open their own shops on wechat and they want to sell stuff and they want to do promotions and sometimes they're like exaggerating or whatever because these are friends and acquaintances then i don't think it bothers me that much although it
can be annoying but it's completely different from false advertising when a company sells you something and claims that, oh, this product can actually take off all your spots on your face when it can't?
For example, there was a 2024 article published by Everlaw .com .cn that talked about the Beijing Municipal Administration for market regulation.
They imposed a 200 ,000 yuan, that's about 28 grand, a fine on a medical aesthetic hospital hospital company for their false commercial advertising during a live stream promotion.
So this is what happened.
So the company promoted its products during their live streams, and they claimed that a lot of celebrities use their products.
And one of the devices of the company was, quote, the only domestically produced ultrasound therapy device certified by the NMPA, which is China's National Medical Products Administration.
But investigations, and they They did investigate.
It found that the company couldn't provide evidence to support the celebrity endorsements, number one, or the NMPA certification claim.
So it was misleading.
And those were considered to be false claims. And it constituted a violation of the advertisement law.
Yeah. With these online live streams, can you always tell whether – because usually there's a host, right, who's trying to speak in a very approachable way to try to connect with the live audience.
and try to sell something try to make it seem as organic as they can yeah yeah and if it's a company doing this if sometimes you see that oh it's this um a live stream i watched this morning a shoe company from dongguan try to sell me um some cheap shoes and then i know this is advertising when they're doing the live stream but if let's say it was a yushan doing a live stream and then selling shoes hopefully better shoes than what I saw this morning gig economy then I don't know how to make of it then you know well maybe she's having a difficult time and needs some extra bucks but would you think
this is commercial right I think that's kind of sort of what's being debated here the definition of advertisement is evolving but today the lines feel somewhat blurred with more cases surfacing it's worth asking why is the debate around the labeling heating up now even though social media has been part of our lives for over a decade i think you mentioned on something that's really important here that's the fine line between advertising and promotion we mentioned how you know people on wechat are doing promotions but nowadays that including industry analysts they're all pointing out that in today's
business environment the line between advertising and promotion, or more broadly, advertising and marketing has become increasingly blurred.
And that two terms are often used interchangeably as well in today's, say, online world, especially on social media, and also for some public companies as well.
Because in 2021, ByteDance, one of the major tech companies here in China, they repositioned their commercial business from an advertising platform to a commercial service platform.
Same with Tencent in 2023.
So Tencent, another major tech company, they rebranded their advertising business as marketing services.
So we can't really tell nowadays when you say marketing, oh, you're just trying to say do promotions.
And this just reflect a growing trend where the definition of advertising is becoming generalized in actual business practices nowadays.
So that's what's going on.
That's why a lot of consumers are being, say, confused, are feeling confused in a way.
Yeah. Well, there is this difference between promotion and advertising in the legal sense.
What is the difference?
Well, there's commercial advertising.
They're regulated by different laws.
That's the difference.
And one of them is commercial advertising.
And that falls under the jurisdiction of the advertising law.
And it's very strictly regulated on content, also on format, also on distribution channels.
One example would be if one piece of content qualifies as an advertisement but fails to clearly indicate advertisement or promotion in a very prominent position, then it could lead to some sort of penalty.
So you have to be very clear and label it, advertisement or promotion.
Commercial promotion, on the other hand, that's like a new product update on a brand's official WeChat account like that or a brand introduction on a company's homepage, that's different.
That's governed by the anti unfair competition law or the consumer rights protection law.
And those laws primarily regulate false or misleading content, but they don't impose mandatory requirements on the form of distribution.
So that's the difference between the two.
And advertisements to be called this name and to hold that label, it needs to meet four standards.
Yeah. The first one is to have the marketing nature in the ads.
Let's just simplify it.
So whether the post has the subjective intention to facilitate a transaction is what qualifies of an advertisement.
For example, it provides a link to the shopping page, then it's an advertisement.
And also for media -based nature of it as well, whether it is this, yeah, it's mentioned through a medium that allows for repeated access and playbacks.
For example, sometimes the verbal promotions at sales events, they go without any recording or live broadcasting.
This generally do not qualify as advertisement.
However, if such events are recorded and it's uploaded to say platforms like Douyin or WeChat where people can go back to it and replay it, then the content becomes retrievably and also widely shareable and qualifies as advertising.
And then there is this very important non -manitary nature because whether the content was published voluntarily is critical here.
When a platform uses algorithm to actively push user -generated content, such as, say, a product recommendation to more audiences, then the platform itself is not neutral anymore in spreading content, even if it doesn't charge any money.
So in these cases, if the content itself has the commercial, say, cooperation background or obvious promotion orientations, then, of course, the platform could be recognized as a co -publisher and held accountable for the advertisement it's publishing.
Yeah, that's because these platforms are non -neutral platforms, right?
They use algorithms. They actively promote commercial posts.
It's like a billboard sitting next to a highway kind of thing, right?
right? So if the platform boosts advertisements, even if it's done accidentally, it's no longer just a neutral host. It becomes a part of the advertising chain.
So what this means is that companies need to be very careful when posting and be aware of where their posts may be spread.
Not just companies, as a matter of fact, even regular users, they need to be very careful about what they post online.
Because if the content gets boosted by algorithms, it could be seen as an advertisement and even something as innocent as love our new product well that could be pushed out to millions of people by the platform's algorithm that's the the target audience that we're talking about the uncertain audience could also refer to whether the content targets an unspecific public audience for example if you are just simply publishing or say sending something inside a close WeChat group, that's usually not seen as an ad.
But if it's visibly broadened to like the whole public, then of course, that's an advertisement.
Well, we have lived with social media for years now.
And most of us are used to seeing the advertisement label on posts on various platforms, including Xiaohongshu and other places.
Should Should social media platforms require clearer, more explicit labeling so no one mistakes ads for genuine recommendations?
And this is keeping WeChat in mind as well.
Yes, absolutely. Nowadays, I've already seen a lot of search online platforms. They're doing it, labeling the certain content or videos as advertisement as they should.
Because Article 14 of China's advertising law, it clearly states that advertisements must be recognizable and allow just consumers to easily distinguish them as ads.
And consumers, they must not be misled into mistaking advertisement for genuine personal recommendations or neutral information that happen all the time.
You know, back in the days, I think, 10 years ago, if not more, YouTubers, the first generation of YouTubers, they always say, oh, I personally recommend this because it works so well.
It works so well on your skin, on your hair, but actually they're paid to do it.
But very few of them, I'll say, will clearly label them as, yeah, it's sponsored by certain brands, etc. So nowadays, we have very strict regulations on, yeah, if you're sponsored or, say, supported by a brand, you need to label it clearly.
And we've seen, actually, there was this 2023 survey in China, over 64 % of Gen Z shoppers are swayed by influencer recommendations.
And the reason why influencer recommendation works is that to build your identity and your brand as an influencer, you're supposed to be an expert in a certain field.
old and then it's all these products you use you think are fantastic and that's why we trust you right the trust yeah and we buy this right but now if this is all paid advertisement who knows if you tried this or not and then if you label it as advertisement automatically well nobody wants to click on it why would i want to click on it no exactly and it's tricky now isn't it because you have to be really transparent i mean i know some influencers and many years ago companies would Companies would always send them free stuff, right?
Always send them tons of free stuff.
And the deal is, you go on your Insta or whatever, social, and you say, Ooh, I love this.
Well, now you have to say, I love this, and also I'm being paid to say that I love this.
Yeah, and this is actually, do you think this is hurting individual influencers, their businesses?
And also, what about the platforms?
How is this impacting the platforms?
forms? Well, I mean, for the for the content creators themselves, if there's a commercial partnership involved, well, they can't necessarily just say, well, I'm just sharing my life with you like that.
But, you know, on the other hand, it still does exist. So from the creator's point of view, I think the opportunity to have a successful career that way is still really really possible.
I mean, it's not like people are going to stop using social media altogether.
Yeah, it seems like for Instagram, Sao Hongshu, all these platforms that we all know, well, even with the labeling, their business is still growing.
Yeah, absolutely. So it seems like transparency and in order to boost that consumer trust, that is always the way to go.
Coming up next, a very short Motivational Monday.
ah steve what do you have for us in this very short amount of time i don't know why you said my name like that but i'll answer your question actually i'll answer a previous question that you posed um when you asked uh yushan about what can we do as individuals when we think about the planet planet, right?
Climate change, the world getting hotter, things like that.
I'll go to Dr. Jane Goodall to answer your question.
Who is the world? She's still with us, by the way.
She's not, I think she's 91 years old now.
She's the world's leading chimpanzee expert.
She's a primatologist, an anthropologist, and a zoologist. And this is what she said, and this kind of struck a chord with me.
What you do makes a difference, and you have to decide what kind of difference you want And the reason that struck a chord with me is because you can apply that to so many different aspects of your life, right?
You have friends, you have family, you have co -workers, and you make a difference in all of those people's lives, whether you know it or whether you don't.
Sometimes it's more obvious than others, but it's up to you, ultimately, isn't it?
How much of an impact do you want to have on someone else's life?
You can call and text them and meet with them all the time, or you can send a message once every eight months.
Now, apply that to the environment.
You know, how much do you actually actively want to do to help to protect our planet?
We've talked about it many times.
Yes, you can make small steps in your home to do so.
So I like that quote.
What you do does make a difference, but it's up to you to decide what kind of difference you want to make.
That quote can be applied in so many areas in life and particularly in environmental protection.
I think it's very valid and it's widely cited in global climate agreements.
The Paris Agreement, for example, is that 1 .5 degrees Celsius above pre -industrial levels is considered the danger line, staying below to avoid catastrophic impacts of climate change, such as extreme heat, sea level rise, biodiversity loss, severe weather events, as we've seen.
So I think, you know, just keep that number in mind as well.
And this is what you can do.
Thank you, Steve and Yusheng for joining the discussion.
I'm He Yang. We'll see you next time.
