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The History Channel original podcast.
History This Week, March 3rd, 1907.
I'm Sally Helm. A quiet study in Vienna, Austria.
The walls are lined with books and also with hundreds of small figurines.
Egyptian saints, ancient Assyrian gods.
serpents, dragons. The owner of the study ushers in a young guest.
They're here for a meeting of the minds.
And the topic of this meeting of the minds is the mind, psychology, and even more specifically, the unconscious.
The things that are in our minds without us even realizing it.
These men are some of the first to explore this territory, trying to figure out what it is, How it might influence our behaviors, our urges, our anxieties.
And these explorations, it's pretty likely they've had some influence on the way that you think about your inner life, whether you know it or not.
Dr. Sigmund Freud sits down behind his desk.
Dr. Carl Jung sits across from him.
The two men have been exchanging letters for a while now.
Freud is 50 years old, a pioneer in his field.
He's already invented psychoanalysis, which became the talking cure.
It'll go on to influence what we'd today call talk therapy.
Freud has a lot of theories about sex and sexuality, including the idea of the so -called Oedipus complex, that sons unconsciously desire their mothers and feel aggression towards their fathers.
Freud also helps pioneer a focus on dreams, what he called the royal road to the unconscious, a psychic highway into our deepest fears and desires.
Carl Jung is 19 years Freud's junior, and he finds Freud's work inspiring.
A year ago, he sent Freud a copy of his first major work, a paper proposing a theory about word association, how our responses to various random words might reveal something deeper.
Freud reads the paper and the letters and thinks, maybe this is someone who can carry on my legacy, a true heir.
And today, in this study, they finally meet.
It's calmly lit. Visitors would comment on the thick rugs.
Your feet sink like a camel's in the sand.
Jung takes a seat across from Freud at his desk and begins to talk.
And talk and talk. Three hours later, it's Freud's turn.
And then Jung's again.
Their conversation is deep and passionate.
Jung will later say that at times, he was moved to tears by how well their thoughts seem to align.
They've both been trying to do something almost impossible.
Describe and analyze this invisible thing, the unconscious.
That, pretty much by definition, is always just beyond our grasp.
But if they can make the unconscious conscious, it could reveal the hidden mechanisms that direct our lives.
Their conversation lasts 13 hours.
For a meeting of the minds, that's got to be close to a record.
It sparks a friendship and a collaboration that will last for years.
And yet, even in that first meeting, Jung harbors some uncertainty about the legendary Freud.
He tries to speak up about some points where he and Freud disagree, but he says that Freud waves these thoughts away as inexperience.
My first impressions of him remained somewhat tangled, Jung later writes.
I could not make him out.
Today, the relationship that helped form the foundational layer of modern psychology How did Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung shape the way we understand the human mind, that elusive unconscious?
And why did their friendship eventually crash to pieces?
As far as medical fields go, psychiatry is a fairly new one.
It only took off in the late 1800s.
Psychiatry has been a legitimate medical field for about a century.
That's George McCary, director of the DeWitt Wallace Institute of Psychiatry at Weill Cornell in New York City.
He says early practitioners in this field were thinking about mental problems in the same way that they would physical problems, like trying to find some problem in the brain itself.
They're thinking about brain anatomy, but they don't get very far.
The brain turns out to be super complicated.
This is the way that Sigmund Freud is thinking when he first starts out.
He becomes early on consumed with this idea, which is how do you find an anatomical basis for mental illness?
So he's slicing and dicing neurons of strange animals.
Lampreys, crawfish.
They're very excited.
They've figured out the motor neuron, the sensory neuron.
And he's been doing that for years, but actually it's taking him nowhere.
He's good at it, but the people in his lab are better, and he's about to leave to go into private practice, and he has very few tools to help patients.
Freud travels to Paris, where he's exposed to new methods for treating psychological disorders, things like hypnosis.
That obviously wouldn't directly treat a physical problem in the way that surgery would, so he thinks maybe there could be other treatments like these, treatments that use words, not a scalpel.
He returns to Vienna inspired, and over the course of several years, he develops the practice of psychoanalysis.
The classic Freudian setup is that the patient comes in the office and they lie down on a couch.
And the analyst sits behind the patient.
Why? Freud didn't like being looked at the entire session.
But that's a lousy kind of reason.
Yeah, it's not just that.
McCurry says it has to do with the way Freud wanted his patients to feel.
The idea is Freud wanted people to go into slightly trance -like states, you know, semi -sleepy states with very little visual stimuli, including looking at the analyst.
He said, lie down on the couch, say everything that comes to mind.
I want you to associate.
It's called free association in psychoanalysis.
If the patient hesitates, if they stop themselves, if they make a weird jump from one idea to the next, he starts to infer that there's something going on there.
Repression, inhibition, a complex. What Freud was seeing was that through free association, people would kind of circle back around to the important issues over and over again.
And that's how you could identify them.
Things that they wouldn't necessarily have come up with right away from their conscious minds.
Meanwhile, as Sigmund Freud is refining his methods, Carl Jung is just getting his career off the ground.
Jung was the son of a pastor in Switzerland.
He initially trains to be a minister, but switches to medicine.
and chooses to specialize in this relatively new, only semi -respected field, psychiatry.
Satya Doyle Bayak is an author and a Jungian psychotherapist.
And it was a shock when he decided to go into psychiatry as a young man.
He was top of his class, everyone adored him, and he had a couple of dreams and insights that directed him towards studying psychiatry.
psychiatry. Jung, too, is interested in buried complexes.
He's living in Zurich, respected in his circle, but not well known.
And he was working on this test called the word association test.
How is he using word association?
Can we pause on that for a minute?
What was that? So essentially, he has a list of something like 100 words, and he has a person in front of him and he has a stock watch or some kind of timer.
And he reads a word off this list and asks the person each time to respond with the first word that comes to their mind.
So he says elephant and one person might say like the zoo and another person might say trampling.
And it's like, huh, what are those different directions?
Exactly. Certainly in that perfect example, you have an indication that one person may have very little packed into that word, and another person is completely overwhelmed by it.
So he is observing the unconscious, he is proving the existence of the unconscious, and he is getting very, very clear results.
In one famous example, Yume works with a mother who's dealing with severe depression.
Through word association, he's able to learn that she had knowingly let her children drink contaminated bath water resulting in one child's death.
It was a horrific experience that she'd repressed deep in her unconscious.
Jung uncovers this entire story that she's never told anyone and hasn't really fully acknowledged herself.
And as a result of her telling the story and him discovering it, she's relatively cured because she's now able to admit to herself what it is that she's been trying so hard to avoid and all of these feelings that had been dredged up.
So Carl Jung is doing this word association, inspired in part by Freud's free association.
And he's finding it incredibly useful.
But at the time, Freud's ideas are not universally accepted.
James Hollis is a Jungian analyst.
Freud was very well known, but not always in a good way.
His emphasis upon human sexuality, including infantile sexuality.
Well, you know, I really have to acknowledge by sexuality, he doesn't just mean what adults tend to mean by that.
He means that we are pleasure -seeking, pain -avoiding animals, which is pretty obviously true.
But his emphasis upon sexuality had made him somewhat a scandal in European psychology, and he was widely attacked by many colleagues because many of them were carrying a kind of moral bias about the place of sexuality.
And Freud was not always in good repute at that time.
Yeah, Freud has been developing his understanding of the unconscious.
And he's really focused on the role of sexuality, how sexual desires get repressed and then drive us unconsciously, become this really powerful force that we're not always looking at.
Some of his ideas have European academics scandalized.
But Carl Jung, he thinks that is unfair.
Well, I mean, this is a moment that I think is really quite beautiful.
Satya Doyle -Bayock again.
I think there's something to Jung that feels sort of schoolyard bully about that.
It feels unfair to let this other academic get bullied when actually they're working in similar territory.
So Jung goes in the opposite direction.
He really reaches out to Freud, starts writing him, builds a friendship with him, a relationship with him.
And so, out of appreciation, he mailed a copy of his own researchers in the word association experiment to Freud.
Not knowing that Freud had already purchased his own copy, and Freud wrote back a very appreciative letter.
And it led to an invitation to Jung to visit in Vienna, which he did.
This is that legendary 13 -hour meeting.
Jung did a lot of the talking.
George McCary again.
He was a very voluble guy, very enthusiastic guy, so that makes sense.
He goes on for three hours.
Apparently he stopped and Freud said, OK, you've been talking about these categories of problems, A, B, C, and D.
So let's start with A.
In other words, he really tried to give form to what was, you know, an anxious younger colleagues going on and on and on.
The conversation does turn to Freud's theories about sexuality.
Freud says, I know people over where you are in Zurich don't love those theories of mine.
You've got to defend them.
And when Jung says why, he says, what are we defending it against?
He says the black mud of occultism.
Occultism. Now, the weird thing is Jung was really into the occult.
He had been really into the occult as a younger person.
His family was into spiritism and speaking to the dead and stuff like that.
Later that year, Jung would actually write to Freud about being elected an Honorary Fellow of the American Society for Psychical Research.
Quote, Jung had a strong interest in spirituality of all kinds.
And Satya Doyle -Bayak told us it was deeply tied to his work.
Jung began approaching spirituality and what he might call the divine.
in ways that are still a little hard to fully explain and trying to explain Jungian psychology because it really enters into spaces that are not about kind of easily quantifiable scientific knowledge.
And I don't think Freud was comfortable going there.
For him things really needed to be rooted in biology.
He needed to prove the unconscious as related back as much as possible to the known, to the extroverted world, to the human body, to childhood, etc. And I think Jung felt, while trepidatious, more comfortable going into other territory.
These two men are both deeply interested in the unconscious, this realm of symbols and dreams.
But it's already becoming clear, they do view it differently.
Still, this meeting is the beginning of a passionate collaboration.
Freud clearly sees Jung as his successor, someone who can take up the torch of psychoanalysis.
And there's another important layer here.
Jung is Christian, and Freud is Jewish.
There is a ton of anti -Semitism at this time in Europe, especially in Vienna, and it is fueling Freud's critics.
He knows the kind of things he's going to hear as people try to take down psychoanalysis.
It's a Jewish science.
This Jewish obsession with sexuality is disturbed, distorted and disgusting.
And so Freud sees this coming.
And as it comes, he sees that the possibility of securing psychoanalysis in Zurich with Protestants who are highly reputable psychiatrists.
So all of that was, Freud, I think, thought a real boon that psychoanalysis would survive.
Freud, being Jewish, is an outsider.
But Jung, the son of a pastor, is not.
So Freud thinks, this person can help me secure the future of my work.
He called him my crown prince.
If Jung's the crown prince, then of course the king is Freud.
And there was certainly a father -son relationship there.
Father and Son. Freud writes to Jung that he is the spirit of my spirit, the Joshua to his Moses.
They have been in dialogue, they've been in colleagueship, they are corresponding frequently, which is a beautiful thing that we have records of.
Jung writes to Freud in June of 1907.
I rejoice every day in your riches and live from the crumbs that fall.
Freud replies modestly, I'm very much surprised to hear that I am the rich man from whose table you glean a few crumbs.
Soon enough, these men are invited to appear together to speak on these new theories about the unconscious and psychoanalysis broadly.
The King and the Crown Prince.
They embark on a trip across the ocean to America.
And on that trip, their relationship will begin to sour.
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Carl Jung and Sigmund Freud are on a steamship headed for New York.
They've been invited to give a series of lectures at Clark University to some of America's leading psychologists and psychiatrists.
As they pulled into New York Harbour, Freud said to Jung, little do they know, we're bringing the plague with us.
And I think he meant by that, their certainty that what they think, feel, and believe consciously constitutes the reality.
Basically, all these people are about to learn the power of the unconscious.
We're going to blow their minds.
The lectures go well, And along the way, traveling to and through America, Jung and Freud start interpreting each other's dreams.
Jung tells Freud that he has a dream in which he is in this beautiful home with art on the walls.
And he sees that there are many levels to the home.
And he descends many different layers and finds all these different kind of artifacts and things from different parts of the world.
and he ultimately descends into the basement.
And there are many things down there, but among them are two skulls, two human skulls.
Freud says, I know exactly what this means.
The two skulls must be a buried death wish.
Meaning Jung secretly wants to die or he wants someone else to die.
Now, Jung thinks to himself, I actually don't think that's right.
This is a moment of conflict for the two of them, and Jung describes it as being an incredibly stressful moment for him, because he knows the only way that he has to get out of this awkward encounter with Freud is that he has to lie to him.
Jung ultimately feels like he has to tell Freud what his death wish is, even though he absolutely does not believe he has one.
So Jung tells him, you know, oh, I have a death wish for my wife and my sister -in -law.
Like, this should make Freud happy.
But he's really thinking, these skulls, to me, mean something completely different.
Jung has been developing a new theory about what he'll call the collective unconscious.
He believes that if you dive into the depths of your own unconscious, you'll find symbols that humans throughout history have seen in their dreams.
Images that aren't specific to any one person's mind or their repressed desire, like Freud believes.
It's more like an archaeological dig.
He's seeing, oh, there are parts of me, there are parts of my unconscious that are not known to me because I repressed them.
They're not known to me because I've never seen them before.
My conscious mind has never seen them before.
That's what these skulls actually represent for him.
And that really becomes this moment of breakdown.
Whether Freud knows it or not, it's when Jung begins to really go his own way.
They continue to clash.
At another point, Jung is telling Freud about these bog men that can be found in some places in the world.
The bog men, these skeletons that were found that were preserved in bogs.
And Freud was getting kind of nauseous, asked him to stop.
But Jung kept going and kept going and kept going.
And Freud fainted. For Freud, this incident also revealed a death wish.
Perhaps that Jung wanted Freud dead.
That he wants to take down the father.
He wants to kill the father.
It's that Oedipus complex Freud talked about.
That men desire their mothers and feel aggression towards their fathers.
And Freud and Jung do have that kind of relationship.
Freud, again, is developing this very deep insecurity that Jung wants to destroy him and take him down.
And I think on Jung's side, he's just sort of irritated that this keeps getting in the way for the two of them.
So there's a lot of buildup to Jung feeling as though he can no longer be seen or understood.
And his ability to really digest these things he's excited about has waned because now they're in this jostle for power that Jung just doesn't have interest in at this point.
But the two men keep working together.
In 1910, with Freud's backing, Jung is named president of the International Psychoanalytical Association.
The deal is going to be that Jung is going to be president, which means he's going to control the journals, control who's in and who's out, and his term is going to be for life.
The members of the International Psychoanalytical Association, they balk at that.
A lifetime term is a long time.
Jung eventually has to settle for two years.
But that was an idea that I think made sense for Freud and Jung.
He was going to be the heir apparent for life.
But even with this plush appointment, Jung is continuing to diverge from his colleague -slash -mentor -slash -father.
And soon, he'll do so very publicly.
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In 1912, Carl Jung releases a book called Psychology of the Unconscious.
In it, he expands on his ideas about what he'll later call the collective unconscious, a kind of psychic plane that he believed we all share across borders, even across time, the plane he was tapping into when he saw those skulls in his dream.
And in this book, Jung takes it a step further.
He explicitly acknowledges that his ideas about the unconscious are not compatible with Freud's theories.
It doesn't have to do so much with repressed sexual desire.
George McCary says for Freud, this is essentially a worst case scenario.
This is precisely the kind of repudiation of sexuality that Freud feared.
I think that he saw it as a fundamental attack on something that he considered central to psychoanalysis.
Their relationship deteriorates rapidly.
It is really hard to see how they would have continued together under the same umbrella.
Freud's reaction to Jung's book is bitter.
In their letters, dear friend becomes, dear Dr. Jung.
And in January of 1913, Freud sends the letter that ends it all.
Dear doctor, it begins, and goes on, I propose that we abandon our personal relations entirely.
I shall lose nothing by it, for my only emotional tie with you has long been a thin thread.
Jung later replies, I accede to your wish that we abandon our personal relations, for I never thrust my friendship on anyone.
Here's James Hollis.
It was a traumatic breaking for both of them.
There's no question about that.
Soon, Carl Jung is out as president of the International Psychoanalytical Association.
His going against Freud has made him a pariah in that group.
And remember, this was the position that he was originally supposed to hold for life.
He resigned actually rather easily.
He was pushed a little and then he jumped.
Freud surrounds himself with supporters.
He holds his psychoanalytical ground.
Jung, on the other hand.
His career is shattered.
He's lost most of his friends and colleagues.
They've all abandoned him.
And he dives into his unconscious.
He has what we call the confrontation with the unconscious.
He himself begins to wonder if he's becoming schizophrenic or going schizophrenic in the terms of the day.
And he begins writing down these visions and he starts writing all these dialogues down and all these stories down.
And wrote in a book that was mythical when I was in training in Zurich.
Jung's estate refused to publish this book until 2009.
We've all read since.
The Red Bull was his personal journal of his encounter with psychological forces and so forth.
It's sort of active dreaming or trancing or visioning without any assists of psychedelics.
And in these huge pages creates these incredible paintings.
And they express all sorts of things, but the book itself is stunning.
The drawings are fabulous.
He was actually a great draftsman.
George McCary. So, and it's wild, and he's on a journey of some sort.
Jung draws a wooden ship with a giant sea monster beneath it, and a snake spewing fire from its mouth.
The pages look like they're from some kind of illuminated medieval manuscript.
It's kind of impossible to read.
It doesn't make a lot of sense.
Yet, this Red Book contains important insight about the unconscious.
It is an amazing document of someone who's going to come out on the other side with ideas about symbols and dream life and alternate kinds of states of consciousness that is going to be, you know, obviously formulated through his more rational processes so that actually we can understand what he's writing.
Jung slowly begins teaching again, publishing, building up his school of thought and regaining his prestige.
In a way, it all came out of this dark period in the wake of his breakup with Freud.
When those two worlds broke apart, Jung had to reconstruct his own world and certainly his own community.
Students began flocking to him from all over the world.
Sigmund Freud goes in a different direction.
His world gets smaller.
He becomes more defensive, a little paranoid.
He became quite controlling and even dictatorial about what constituted psychoanalysis and what didn't.
But soon, his own movement begins to move on, especially in the wake of World War I.
The Freudians rebuild not so much under the kind of central authority of Sigmund Freud, but more as a broader psychoanalytic community where they really did try to allow for more intellectual freedom and have Freud not be like the final say on whether a theory was correct or not.
In the world of psychology, there's still a divide between the Freudian and the Jungian schools of thought.
And both men have certainly shaped how we think of the mind.
From Freud, we get the idea of defenses, of repression, projection, and paranoia, dream and fantasy interpretation.
From Jung, dream interpretation too, of course.
He also invented the terms extroversion and introversion.
He creates the entire field of personality types, which goes on to inform the Myers -Briggs test.
All kinds of things that have seeped into the culture.
James Hollis says, you don't necessarily have to divide these two men to understand their legacies.
Yes, they had some important differences, differences that drove them apart, but they also had a lot in common.
Beliefs that are still influential in the field they helped shape.
What Freud and Jung did together was they told us there's another world, the ignorance of which rises up and bites us from behind.
Once in a while, people scratch their heads and ask the question, what was I thinking when I chose this person, or this career, or I thought that was a good idea?
But at some point, what we did at the time made sense to the ego at that time, little knowing that there was another field of energy at work.
Satya Doyle -Baiyak, Jungian psychotherapist and author of Quarterlife, the Search for Self in Early Adulthood, and director of the Salome Institute of Jungian Studies.
Dr. James Hollis, Jungian psychoanalyst and author of A Life of Meaning, Relocating Your Center of Spiritual Gravity.
And Dr. George McCary, psychiatrist, historian, and author of Revolution in Mind, The Creation of Psychoanalysis.
He is also director of the DeWitt Wallace Institute of Psychiatry at Weill Cornell.
This episode was produced by David Weisbord, produced and sound designed by Ben Dickstein, and also produced by me, Sally Helm.
For Backpocket Studios, our executive producers are Ben Dickstein and David Weisbord.
From the History Channel, our executive producers are Eli Lehrer and Liv Fiddler.
Don't forget to follow, rate, and review History This Week wherever you get your podcasts, and we'll see you next week.
You
