This episode is brought to you by Granola Brevo Shopify, Blinkist Strawberryme and Fabric by Gerber Life.
If you're in back-to-back meetings and want to stay focused while still getting clear notes, try Granola totally free for three months at granolaaicom.
To level up your marketing head to brevocom, slash anything and use the code anything50 to save 50 off your first three months.
Ready to launch your business?
Sign up for your $1 per month trial at shopify.com slash kwami.
If you want to stay sharp and get the core insights from thousands of nonfiction books in just 15 minutes, start your free trial at blinkistcom.
Slash kwami.
To take control of your career trajectory.
Go to strawberryme slash kwami for 50 off.
It's like therapy for your career.
Welcome to this masterclass edition of Negotiate Anything.
With over 1700 episodes featuring some of the world's brightest minds, we've carefully curated a couple of powerful conversations for you.
What makes this so special is that you'll hear how different experts from different industries approach the same challenge in their own unique ways.
Our goal is to give you multiple perspectives so you can build your own unique style.
Success doesn't look the same for everyone.
And in this masterclass, you'll see exactly why.
Let's dive in.
Daniela, thank you for joining us today.
Nice to meet you and nice to see you.
Happy to be here with you.
Yes, we are happy to have you, my friend.
So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
So I have a legal background from Italy, where I practiced as a family law attorney for more than 20 years, and I became a certified mediator in 2011 and later a master degree negotiator.
So I feel that ADR processes are my passion, and I want to talk more about conflict how to understand the issues behind conflicts, how to solve conflicts and how to consider conflict as an opportunity to grow.
Fantastic.
No, we are excited about that.
And I think your background is unique because you have a multicultural perspective.
You have the legal background practicing as a family lawyer.
And everybody knows family law is a very contentious aspect of the law.
It's very heated emotions when families could be going separate ways.
So there's a lot of emotion wrapped up in that.
You're also that you have that mediation background, but you also did a little bit of hostage negotiation as well as at least hostage negotiation training.
Can you tell the listeners about that, too?
Yes, that was an experience not only in the classroom but also on a practical side, as a special training with the military forces in Italy.
I could have the chance to be involved as the hostage negotiator there.
And I wasn't prepared at all.
So it was really realistic as an experience for me.
Obviously, the emotional level is very high.
And when you are there, you have just to start being focused on the fact that the hostages taker are people.
And you have to understand and read behind the lines and their behaviors.
You don't have a lot of time.
You have to be quick and intuitive in those moments.
When you start creating rapport with the person like this and giving the idea that you can understand, you can hear what this person has to say.
So establishing rapport, this is the most important part.
This is really insightful because when we think about nonviolent communication and just violence as a whole, a lot of times we go straight to the point where we will not tolerate violence.
And I think that's a good idea, that we should not tolerate violence, correct?
But what you have really articulated well is the fact that yes, we will not tolerate the act of violence.
But at the same time, we have to recognize that the violent person is still a person.
And there's a reason behind what it is that they're doing in that moment.
But for the person who is Perhaps on the receiving end of the violence, or the person who is trying to stop the violent behavior and we're talking about violence in terms of physical violence or, in most of the cases that we find ourselves in, it's emotional aggression, aggressive communication, those type of things.
It's really difficult for us to maintain our composure in that situation when we're faced with that level of hostility.
And so when you talk about building rapport under these circumstances, how can somebody build rapport when they're dealing with somebody who is acting violently?
First of all, I want to make a premise here that the conflict is part of the human nature.
We can't live in an environment without conflicts.
And The nice news is that conflict means that there's a relationship which is ruined damaged, compromised.
And we are at the level of relationship here.
When we are talking about violent persons, we are in a level of a sort of an alphabetism under the emotional aspects.
So persons who are not educated at the emotional level that can be a reason for becoming violent.
They are not able to stay in a conflictual environment, which means still to have to deal with the relationship and to repair the relationship.
We want to avoid that.
The conflict where the relationship is ruined and we have to repair escalate to the level of the violent and high level conflict are really difficult to deal with.
Like saying you have a conflictual situation and conflict hits you like a wave.
Sometimes, you know big wave hits you and leave you astonished, without words, without strength, almost emptied.
But if you start considering that the conflict and that's the most important part starting when it's possible to face the conflict at the level that you can avoid the escalation to the violent, when it's most difficult to intervene,
For this, you have to be prepared.
You can't just be there and leave the things to improvisation.
Sitting at the table of negotiation, metaphorically speaking, can be like seeing the edge of the iceberg.
The nature, the context, and the positions that people assume to defend their interest is there.
It shows up.
The violent person is screaming that wants something.
But to be effective we have to look down and check under the surface to know more and discover the unknown aspects, most of the times unclear also for people directly involved.
So the conflict as a dynamic movement with a tendency to get worse if people involved blame each other and oppose their thoughts without the intent of seeing beyond the present moment and the possibilities to preserve the relationship, the assets, the reputation in the future and for the future.
So the role of the negotiator or mediator is trying to move the conflict toward the path of the collaboration, offering new perspective and adding values to the element at stakes.
So what do you do?
First of all, skills like observation, active listening empathy, the art of asking questions, are strongly required to negotiate.
And for the case of the violent person, we should consider that the best questions to ask are the ones which lead the person to discover better what there can be behind the situation, behind what he is seeing there.
Good and reasoned questions are useful for people to understand the causes of the conflict.
The right questions also allow people in conflict to evaluate more clearly their own real interest and needs.
When people answer to questions, they can often discover thoughts values ideas, opinions they didn't even know they had.
Or it is the occasion they just clarify to themselves possible alternative pursue.
Sometimes asking the right questions is like playing chess or cards.
Christian.
One move will determine the following one and will give the measure of the conflict and the possible levers to work on.
If questions are essential and simple, they will help to better understand what is really at stake.
Simple questions are often powerful.
They are simple to elaborate and can reach the goal more effectively.
So let's say that we have the hostage taker there or the violent person.
And I give you some examples of general questions you can ask.
And they are really, they can really be effective.
What do you want?
How do you see the situation?
Which is the real problem here?
What is holding you back from doing this or not doing this?
So the ability to ask the right question, especially at the right moment, makes people feel heard and understood.
And this has an enormous impact on their perceptions and thinking process.
You see, it brings people to access their thoughts in a more organized, articulate way.
So they move away from an unstructured emotional reasoning towards the more analytical logic side of the brain.
And so they can reach a more balanced, constructive and sometimes even creative decision-making process.
So I think this is a secret, for instance, to establish rapport.
And I would like to give an optimistic way here to consider conflict, as everybody is a negotiator without being aware of that.
So better having the tools, the strategies and learn how to do that.
And the conflict that I want to show under a positive light, as an opportunity to grow and change.
It happens when the stakeholders are solicited to deepen the reality and discover the importance of the underlying relationship and the interest to keep it alive.
So let's say that the conflict can be visualized as a dance where people Try new steps of the dance.
When you start a new dance, you don't know which are the steps you have to take.
And metaphorically this can be seen as ways, different ways to communicate, to explore, to discover solutions and common interests.
Realizing situations where each party can be satisfied for long term.
In fact, which is the successful negotiation?
The long-term satisfaction of the people involved.
This is the success for the negotiation and for the negotiator.
So let's say that through conflict management, for instance, and how you do that correct training and method, we become more strong and tough.
We can change our perspective in coping the conflictual situation.
So we become more creative, constructive, productive.
We can move from position of contrast and opposition to another one of confrontation.
For it's strongly recommended that the negotiator could be empathetic, good listener and very attentive observer.
And always using a method is a good strategy.
I have a personal method that I use.
Can you tell us a bit more about that personal method, your approach?
Yeah, that's like as I was saying before about diving you always have to be sure that you have the right equipment.
So the method is like the good equipment for the diver and a.k.a.
Awareness knowledge, ability acronyms that I always put in front of me when I have to face a difficult conversation.
Help people to negotiate.
So it's to be focused and helps me to get prepared and stay focused.
Awareness.
And so this is the level where you ask yourself what you have to do, what you have to face.
That means being prepared through studying reading searching, verifying the conditions, to fade the situation.
Asking also yourself, is that a good moment to negotiate?
Am I tired?
Is it better if I postpone the meeting, the session of negotiation?
How many people should be involved?
These are simple questions, but to get aware of what you have to do.
Am I the right person to solve the conflict?
Do I need help, maybe an expert?
Am I enough prepared to sit around the table of negotiation?
Have I the right information?
Do I know enough about the other party at the negotiation table?
Do I know which kind of reaction can come from the other party?
There could be another way to deal the situation.
And this is the awareness, the knowledge level.
And sometimes it has been told that knowledge is power, no, Christian?
I think that knowledge means to be prepared and equipped in negotiation.
It means knowing about the background of the counterpart.
So, for instance, you have the violent person in front of you.
Just try to ask what's happened?
What has the situation has pushed him or her that level?
So which are the alternatives?
As we know, in negotiation the best alternative to a negotiated agreement or the worst alternative to a negotiated agreement.
Just recall this the other party you know and And this is something that you have also to know if you have the chance, before entering the negotiation
You know that feeling.
When you're in back to back meetings all day, you're nodding along trying to contribute.
But in the back of your mind you're secretly stressed because you're trying to remember exactly what was just said or who was supposed to follow up on what.
Meetings can be a mess.
But Granola AI fixes that.
Granola is an AI-powered notepad built for the way real people actually meet.
Here's how it works.
You take rough notes, like you normally would, and then, in the background, Granola securely transcribes the meeting.
Then it turns everything into clean, structured and actually useful notes the moment the meeting ends.
The best part?
It works through your device's audio, so it integrates seamlessly into the tools that you already use.
No setup and no awkward tools.
It's just your normal meeting, but with superpowers.
I've found that it lets me actually listen instead of frantically typing.
So I walk away knowing exactly what was decided and what comes next.
Before Granola, our team would spend extra time cleaning up notes and double-checking details.
Now we leave meetings aligned and clear.
It saved us time and helps us to operate at a much higher level.
If meetings are eating up your day, granola.ai is a no-brainer.
And you can try it totally free for three months.
Just head to granola.ai slash kwame.
That's granola.ai.com to get your time back.
Get three months free at granola.ai.com.
We talk a lot on this show about the importance of learning and staying sharp.
But let's be honest between work and life.
Who actually has time to read every single book that can help you to get ahead?
And that is exactly why I use Blinkist.
It's an app that takes the world's best nonfiction books and breaks them down into 15-minute summaries that you can read or listen to.
They have over 9000 titles, so whether you're into leadership, psychology or negotiation, they've got you covered.
Personally, I love to learn about a wide variety of topics, not just negotiation, but psychology, history and communication.
All of that knowledge works together to help me to be the negotiator that I am today.
This is the tool for you.
Go to Blinkist.com slash Kwame to start your free trial.
That's Blinkist.com slash Kwame.
And other questions you can ask yourself.
Do I know if other people must be involved, for instance?
There's somebody very important for this person that can be of help and influence for letting change his bad mood.
Yeah.
Do I know the point of view of my counterpart?
Which is the real interest of the other party and the negotiation table?
Do I know about the alternatives of the other parties?
And then the acronyms lead also to ability, awareness, knowledge, ability.
And, as I was saying, to recall yourself as a negotiator, that you need good communication skills, active listening empathy creativity intuition, emotional intelligence, sense of humor and being optimistic, for sure.
And what can I tell you?
I would like to give hope in facing conflicts in future and violent person.
In general disputes, diversities and conflicts won't be more scary and stressful if we will be able to think about the loop of conflicts as movement of an imaginative dance.
As a consequence of this thought Christian, we can convince ourselves that the opponent in the conflict is not an enemy.
But he's an essential partner in the negotiation mediations process, also to achieve our goals and satisfy our interests.
I think this is great.
And Daniella, one of the things that you said that was really interesting to me was the fact that.
The violent person, the person who is expressing themselves in a violent aggressive, offensive type of way is really demonstrating a lack of emotional intelligence.
I think that's really interesting because it helps us to empathize with them a little bit more.
I remember with one of our previous interviews, it was with Aaron Upchurch.
We were talking about difficult conversations in the diversity, equity, and inclusion space.
One of the things that she said is that yes, people are going to say things that are offensive, that are hurtful, demeaning and all sorts of things.
And so she's able to look at them with compassion, because she realizes it is just so unfortunate for you not just the wet rest of the world and the people that you're impacting negatively but it's so unfortunate for you to live in a way that you are seeing the world in this way, that you're navigating the world in this way.
That can't even be an enjoyable experience for you.
And so it's gotta be sad and unfortunate that you're in that perspective.
And so holding that person's dignity and seeing them as a person, like you said, For her was the key to empathizing and approaching it compassionately and asking questions, because it's not just that she's compassionate and empathetic in that role, in that position.
It's also that she's genuinely curious.
What made you this way?
How did you come to this point?
What are you trying to accomplish with what you're saying?
Right.
And that's the curiosity that you're talking about.
Yes.
And back to the experience I had as a hostage negotiation in the training.
I am always saying that it wasn't a real situation, it was a training.
But the fact there, I was asking the name of these people, which is your name?
So starting from the basic identity of the person, I show interest.
So being curious and showing interest.
Then obviously is an interest that can be strategic.
But the other person, who is not used to have this kind of conversation, maybe it's just violence against violence.
And you start giving this person a dignity and a human dimension and it comes to another level.
This is a very effective and strong way to de-escalate the violence.
What has happened to you?
Which are the experiences you have lived?
What has pushed you to that level and to this level?
Can we have another way to look at the situation?
And so, as I was saying, you know always having the method and you prepare yourself to also ask the right questions.
Right.
This is so powerful, Christian, the right questions at the right moment.
For instance, If you see a person very upset and you ask why, sometimes the why is just explosive.
And it's better going around and say, how do you see the situation?
Yeah.
How can we get out of this and put the we instead of you?
We such a powerful word to use.
Yes, I love that tip that's.
That's really powerful.
Because the two things here, when you say why it can sound accusatory, it sounds judgmental and they can take it the wrong way, which can actually increase the level of violent communication that they're using, because now they're even more triggered.
And And then also using that collaborative language.
It's not just enough to say, I want to be collaborative.
I want to work with you, though those are good things to say.
Also in the way that you're actually phrasing your questions and what it is that you're saying.
You're actually phrasing it collaboratively.
We are working together in this.
How can we solve this problem?
How can we get past this?
I think that's very, very, very helpful.
And going back to what you were talking about with regard to preparation and I love the term that you used you said this isn't improvisation.
We're not going in there and freestyling and hoping for the best.
Coming up with really high-level effective, insightful questions.
That's hard to do off the fly, and it's hard to do especially if you're dealing with somebody who is approaching you with hostility.
Because you feel that pressure, and that pressure makes it more difficult for you to think clearly in the moment.
So it's so important to take that time to prepare.
And so listeners, if you haven't heard me say this enough remember, if you go to our website AmericanNegotiationInstitutecom, slash guide G-U-I-D-E, and we'll put a link in the description, of course.
You can get access to all of our free negotiation guides, and conflict resolution is one of those guides.
And one of the most important parts there is actually writing out the questions that you think you might ask during the conversation.
And so Daniela, in your experience, what are some of the biggest mistakes that you've seen people make in these types of high stakes conversations?
Well, I can tell you the lack of preparation.
And for sure, when you have a conflictual situation could be at the level of collaborative conflict or conflictual situation but people are ready to collaborate or to the high level conflict.
It's like having a thousand pieces puzzle already set up and you just see the outcome there without considering how many pieces have been put in place.
How long did it take to set up the puzzle?
So you have to deconstruct, dematerialize this puzzle, thousand pieces.
How do you do?
You have to have info.
And so see my method, the knowledge, before sitting around the table of the negotiation.
You have to be aware of what you are dealing with.
You have to know and you have to use all the abilities and skills you can have.
So the mistake is not having a method, not being prepared.
Absolutely.
No, you are absolutely right.
And I appreciate this.
This was really helpful.
And before you go, can you tell the listeners again about you and how they can get in touch with you?
Well, I have an email.
I have a cell phone.
They can be in touch with me in those ways.
I don't know if I can give you here or they can look at the podcast and find the way to ask about myself.
I come from Italy.
I had experience with cross-culture realities and I can approach easily.
I speak almost four languages and I can approach people from different cultures, trying to be as much as empathetic I can to help them to solve conflicts.
Everyone is a negotiator, all of us, but we have to know how to proceed.
Perfect.
I love this.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you so much, Daniela.
This was fantastic.
And listeners will also put Daniela's LinkedIn profile in the link as well.
So you can connect with her there.
She has some really, really great content.
Daniela De Gregorio.
So they can find me through LinkedIn for sure.
Fantastic.
All right, my friend.
Thank you so much.
We really appreciate it.
Thank you for the opportunity, Christian.
I really appreciate that time.
That was the first part of today's masterclass.
Up.
Next we'll hear from another expert with a different approach, giving you even more strategies to add to your toolkit.
Let's keep it rolling.
Thanks for joining us today.
Thank you for having me, Kwame.
It is our pleasure.
How would you start us off by telling the audience a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Absolutely.
There's no subject that I love more than talking about myself.
So thank you for giving me that opportunity.
Tell you a little bit.
I always start with the fact that I'm born and raised in Los Angeles.
And maybe that's top of mind right now because the Lakers are actively trying to recruit a some star players to their team to join LeBron James and Anthony Davis.
So I'm really excited about everything going on in Laker land, but I am born and raised in Los Angeles.
I ended up going to Harvard for college.
I was a psychology major, ended up then working at JP Morgan in investment banking in Hong Kong and New York and then went to Harvard Law School.
And that's really where I learned a lot about negotiations.
Negotiation workshop was my favorite class there.
I ended up being a teaching assistant in the Harvard Law School program on negotiation.
And I had the opportunity in fact to share the stage with Roger Fisher, the author of Getting to Yes, and to work with the wonderful folks at the program on negotiation over there.
And I taught the course during law school.
I taught it in the summer to practicing attorneys and business executives.
And then I got to use it in the real world.
So I ended up coming back to Los Angeles and working at the law firm of Munger Tolles and Olson as a corporate transactional attorney.
I did deals for Kobe Bryant, whom I helped buy a basketball team in Italy.
And I also represented Berkshire Hathaway, who does obviously huge deals.
And I ultimately then moved on to MGM, working in business affairs.
I helped the studio negotiate contracts with actors, producers, writers, and directors.
Ultimately, though, I found my calling in entrepreneurship.
I was the son of an entrepreneur and had worked at my family business ever since I was a little kid.
And somehow the pull of that ultimately grabbed me back.
And so I joined Charlie Chan Printing as its CEO and then ended up running this commercial printing company for 16 years.
It was definitely a labor of love.
And it was amazing working with my dad.
And I think that's when I truly cut my teeth as a negotiation expert.
Because as a small, medium-sized business owner, you are negotiating every single day on the job.
So you're negotiating with investors.
You're negotiating with customers, with employees, with customers, with vendors, everybody.
So I felt like I negotiated every single day on the job, on that for the 16 years that I ran the business.
I also started a tech startup that was incubated by Y Combinator and that raised about 17 million of seed venture capital funding.
So I ran both companies at the same time.
Ultimately, in 2016, I sold my businesses and I started to turn to executive coaching.
And I ended up coaching a bunch of tech company founders through Y Combinator, through the YC network and really, really enjoyed doing that.
And then, following that, I ended up getting a position as director of executive education at Loyola Law School, where I'm a professor.
And I run the executive education program.
That's including starting the website, building the platform.
And we just launched a couple months ago.
We have an online platform that provides for online coursework.
We also have on-campus classes.
And our very first launch class was an online course on negotiations.
And talking about that and talking about negotiations is what brings me here.
And I can't believe how long I just droned on about myself.
Thank you, Kwame, you are a saint for listening to all of that and to your listeners.
No, this was great.
Listeners, I bet you can understand why I am so excited to have Hamilton on the show.
This is going to be great.
In our conversation leading up to this, you've identified three areas that we want to focus on today.
First, building rapport.
Number two, staying strong.
Number three, posturing.
I am really excited to get into this because especially staying strong and posturing, those are things that we haven't gone too in depth on.
So I'm excited to see where you go.
So let's start off with building rapport.
Tell us a little bit more about that.
Well, you know, it occurs to me that you have to play to your strengths in anything that you do.
If right now Wimbledon is going on, and so I see these tennis players if you're Roger Federer, you're about playing the points really quick, about putting the ball away, about advancing the net.
And so similarly, as a negotiator, this isn't necessarily the tip for every single person.
I do think there is definitely a universal truth in the value of building rapport.
But for who I am and for people who may resemble me, I think that that is my go-to strength.
It's my secret weapon.
And so the basic concept is this.
It's that in order to negotiate well, you need to build rapport with the other side.
This means finding commonality, finding common ground, having things to talk about, building that relationship, getting to that point where they like you and you like them.
So the matter that is being negotiated is almost secondary to the relationship.
That's at least at a very high level what I'm trying to accomplish when I try to build rapport.
When I started this podcast and built the American Negotiation Institute, I quickly realized something.
No one hands you a manual.
You're the strategist, the marketer, the operations team and the tech department all at the same time.
Every day there's a new decision, a new problem, and a new hat to wear.
Starting something of your own can feel exciting and lonely.
And looking back, having the right tools makes all the difference.
For millions of businesses, that tool is Shopify.
Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses all around the world and 10 of e-commerce in the United States, from brands just getting started to major household names.
With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you to build a beautiful online store that matches your brand.
It's packed with AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines and even enhance your product photography, helping you to move faster and more efficiently.
You can create email and social media campaigns to reach customers wherever they're scrolling, and you can manage everything in one place, from inventory to payments to analytics, without juggling multiple platforms.
Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify, and start hearing.
Sign up for your $1 per month trial at Shopify.com slash Kwame.
Go to Shopify.com slash Kwame.
That is Shopify.com slash Kwame.
Are you ready to take your business's marketing to the next level?
Meet Brevo, the all-in-one marketing and CRM platform built to help you connect with customers, boost engagement and grow your business smarter.
With Brevo, you can manage all of your customer interactions in one place, nurture leads with their built-in CRM and reach your audience through email and SMS, and keep them coming back with powerful automations.
But here's where it gets really exciting.
Meet Aura, Brevo's AI assistant.
Aura helps you craft smarter campaigns by suggesting personalized content, optimizing send times and even analyzing performance data to help you improve your strategy in real time.
It's like having a marketing expert on your team 24-7.
And, of course, Breville offers advanced analytics, seamless integrations and AI-driven personalization.
Everything you need to craft multi-channel campaigns that hit the mark every single time.
Get started for free today, or use code ANYTHING50 to save 50 on starter and standard plans for the first three months of an annual subscription.
So just head to www.brevo.com slash anything and take your marketing further with Brevo and Aura.
I love your response for two reasons.
Reason number one, I am a tennis junkie.
And I love the fact that you brought in the tennis analogy, which was spot on.
And number two, I really like the fact that you recognize that, based on your personality type, you use rebuilding rapport as a strategic tool.
But you acknowledge that there are some people who do not have that personality where building rapport comes easily to them.
So for that person, what advice would you have for them in this area?
So I think anyone can still improve in this area.
So even though Roger Federer is great at ending the points quickly, he still also has to be a consistent tennis player.
So even though he's not a defensive player who's just getting the ball back all the time like a Novak Djokovic for you tennis nerds out there he still has to be able to be strong in that part of the game.
And same thing with Novak Djokovic.
He can't just be getting the ball defensively all the time.
He has to be good at putting the thing away too.
So, even if that's not your negotiation personality, You can still learn from this, and I would still encourage you to do this.
But I think knowing a little bit about yourself is important too.
So if you tend to be more of the analytical type, maybe you're going to be the type to focus more on your negotiation arguments, your legitimate criteria.
Coming up with brainstorms, creative options and building a rapport is going to be more of a secondary thing for you.
But I think it's an area that everyone can use that will improve the outcome of their negotiations.
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
And I think one of the things is when you start to develop that level of self-awareness where you can see your personality type and the tendencies that you have and the patterns of behavior that you bring to your negotiations, you can recognize what comes naturally and where you need to put some concentrated, focused effort.
And if it's not something that you do well, it doesn't absolve you from the responsibility of actually building rapport.
It just means that you need to be a lot more intentional about doing it.
And so for people who are more analytical, maybe what you do is you.
I have a systematic approach to rapport.
You say I'm going to ask these questions and I'm going to spend at least seven minutes before I introduce my arguments.
I think you're dead on on that as well.
It's one of those things that people simply underestimate, especially amateur negotiators, is they think that the whole point is the negotiation itself, is the material itself.
Some of my best negotiations have been the ones where, for 99 of the time that we're talking to each other, we're talking about the Lakers.
We're talking about Wimbledon.
We're talking about stuff way on the periphery of the matter.
Then finally, we end with oh shoot, we should probably deal with a little matter of this dispute or this contract or this deal or this, whatever.
By then, the wheels are so greased that getting the agreement is a piece of cake.
And that's just the last 1% of the negotiation.
So I think if that's the structure of your negotiation, where there is that much rapport building at the front, you can bet that the negotiation is simply going to go better.
And it happens a lot in business.
And why do you think this is so powerful?
You know, my dad used to have a saying.
I picked up a lot of sayings working with my dad over the years.
But I noticed when I would go into sales calls with my dad, people would just love to see him.
It was like a visit from Santa Claus.
And people always tell me, your dad is so adorable.
I love your dad.
He's amazing.
And so one day I was talking to my dad and he said, do you know why people buy from me?
I said, why?
And he said, because they like me.
And From anybody else that would seem like such a self-aggrandizing thing to say, but it was absolutely true.
The reason why people bought from my dad was because they like him.
I don't know if you've ever been in a purchasing situation, let's say, going even to a retail store where you wanted to buy something, but the person that was going to sell it to you was so unappetizing that you're, like you know what, forget it.
I'm just not going to buy it from you, even though you want the thing itself.
Or times when you didn't even want the thing, but the person was so nice you're like oh okay fine, I'll get it.
That happens to us in everyday life.
So I think the reason why the rapport building is so powerful is that it is a big part of why people do deals with the people that they do.
If they like you, they're more likely to make concessions to help you out and to give you what you want.
And so it's not just getting them to like you.
That's the first thing.
And that's great.
There is another element that is even more powerful if you can layer these two.
And so first get people to like you and then get them to say, Hamilton is also like me.
So, for example, if you're dealing with somebody who is a Lakers fan, you talk about the fact that you're a Lakers fan.
Oh, you're part of the team.
And so that closeness happens is a persuasive tool that you can use during the rapport building process.
Totally.
Making it seem like you're on the same side is critical, because what makes negotiating so difficult is the potentially adversarial nature of it.
So even when I sit down at a negotiation table assuming that this isn't something where we have to be adversarial I like to sit kitty corner rather than across the table, because it lends into that notion that we're going to attack this thing basically looking from the same perspective, as opposed to being, you know, butting heads and playing some kind of game of chicken.
So you're absolutely right.
The other thing I'll like to do is if someone has trouble giving in to my side, I will empathize with the difficulty of their position.
Say, a police officer is trying to give me a parking ticket or give me some driving ticket, I might say man, it must suck to have to hand out tickets all day and piss people off.
I totally get it.
That's not an easy position.
And how many times a day do they hear that?
They might hear it 10 times, but they might hear it zero times.
So if you're the one person to say, I get it, it sucks.
I don't envy your position.
I totally understand what it must be like.
They might just put that pad down and be like, thank you for saying that.
I appreciate that.
Because now you're showing that you are on their side.
You're showing empathy.
Absolutely.
And that's the thing too.
I liken it to the law of physics.
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
And so if somebody is demonstrating resistance, either substantively and emotionally, and your immediate response is to negate what it is that they just said, through argumentation Like oh, you shouldn't feel this way, or no, you're wrong, because X Y Z, Now they're almost obligated to counteract what you said with an approximate amount of force.
So if they do it like you are suggesting, they see, oh, Hamilton's on my side.
He understands me.
Now they don't feel the need to resist as strongly.
Yes, like a matador in the bullfighting ring.
You don't, as the matador, put your head into the horns of the bull and push back at the snout.
What do you do?
You turn to the side and let them use their force against them so that they keep moving.
It's like bullfighting.
Let the thing go through, or negotiation jujitsu is a term of art a lot of people have used.
So absolutely, you do not want to you know, strike the force head on.
You want to try to redirect Absolutely.
And that often starts first with an acknowledgement.
I mean for your listeners, even hear us listen to the fact that we are complimenting each other, that we are assenting to each other's notions, that we are adding our own little flavors, that we're layering the conversation on top of each other.
That's what you do in a negotiation.
And I feel like we're buddies already, right, Kwame?
Absolutely.
It's so funny.
I already know when you're in LA, we're When you're in LA, we're going to play tennis.
We already know that.
Absolutely.
And then go to a Lakers game.
Oh, yeah.
Well, let's move on to staying strong.
Tell us what you think about this.
Okay.
So it's not all pleasantries in a negotiation.
I fully recognize, and you couldn't be in business and be in law for this long without realizing that you're going to have some negotiations which are hostile from the first second until the very last second.
And so A lot of people shy away when they encounter the situation.
In the fight or flight, they're going to want to flee.
And so I think that the first thing that an experienced negotiator starts to develop is a certain resilience in a negotiation.
That's important.
You need to be like a boba doll so that, even as the punches are coming, you continue to weather the storm and don't immediately start running for the hills.
So a big part of this, there are a few little silly tactics that can help.
One is it's very natural for people to nod in assent.
So right now it's hard to say because we're doing a podcast and it's audio only.
But if we were face to face?
It's very common for one person to keep nodding as the other person keeps slamming them or advancing their side.
So I advise my clients and students to keep their heads still and not to keep saying uh-huh uh-huh okay okay yeah, uh-huh.
Because all that does is give the other side a green light to keep going.
Instead, if you keep your head still and you don't keep saying yes uh-huh okay fine, it actually gives them this silence that makes people very unnerved and uncomfortable.
And, as a result, they'll feel more of a yellow light or even a red stoplight.
Stop going in that direction.
So I do.
You know, everyone knows, that Mike Tyson has that phrase that everyone has a plan until they receive the first punch, or some paraphrase of that.
And I think that's absolutely right.
In a negotiation, people are terrified and they may go in with a certain plan.
But as soon as the other side starts knocking down, they they back off.
So what I would recommend is stay strong throughout the negotiation.
Feel conviction in your position and weather the storm.
It's coming.
Absolutely.
And I really love the advice that you gave there with not nodding your head, because it's so subtle and so powerful.
Because one of the things that people crave in these difficult conversations is validation.
Right yes, and when you are nodding your head, you're validating what they're saying.
And now, if you pull that away and you stop acknowledging and validating what they're saying, then what they're reading in their mind is like wait, we had, we established some great rapport at the beginning of the conversation.
We're buddies.
Now I'm not getting that validation.
I want that validation from Kwame again.
And so then it starts to they start negotiating against themselves a little bit.
It pulls them in your direction without you even having to say a word.
Absolutely.
I think in a way this is.
Hopefully a nice balance where if people hear the first thing building rapport, they're like okay, great.
I'm just supposed to be buddy, buddy with the other side.
I guess that's all I have learned here today.
And it's one way or the other.
No, you can balance that just as effectively with this notion of being really strong in a negotiation, being comfortable negotiating with weathering the storm and not feeling so insecure in your own position that you have to throw your negotiation prep sheet out the window.
I do feel like imagine what it's like if you're just a startup trying to sell to a big enterprise brand, a household name, and you have this deal to place your product at that company's location.
You might go into this negotiation trying to build that rapport.
And then, as soon as the company starts giving you a bit of that silent treatment, as you start saying all the reasons why you need to price it at this level or that level, your heart's going to sink.
You're going to lose a lot of confidence.
And by the flip side, the big companies thinking oh, this little startup is going to agree to anything that I say.
And then they start imposing all of these restrictions and you're all silent.
They're also going to feel as a human being that, oh, my gosh, the love has been a little bit lost.
So it's a subtle thing.
And it's not necessarily to turn the whole negotiation dark.
You still want to have that rapport.
But especially in those confrontational negotiations.
This is a tactic that I would consider important.
Absolutely.
And I like what you said about the counterbalancing that this element has when you compare it to the building rapport.
Because when I watch Food Network and I see the judges critiquing the different foods, one of the things that they say is that it's one note.
Meaning that it is not very complex in its creativity, right?
And I think great negotiators are beautifully complex.
So if you're baking something and it's a dessert, of course, it's going to be sweet.
It's going to be nice in that regard.
But a lot of times people are surprised at the fact that salt is an important part of the process.
You don't really taste it at the beginning or as you're consuming it, but it's there and it balances.
If you taste baking powder by itself, it is very unpleasant.
But it's an important part of the process.
And so when you negotiate with Hamilton, it's going to be a pleasant experience.
But there is that counterbalancing that comes with staying strong that is necessary to have that successful negotiation.
Totally.
Okay, you and I have way too much to connect on, because I am also a big consumer of Food Network cooking shows.
And you're absolutely right.
You know they'll do the competition and then the judge will say you know the texture.
Everything here is mushy, everything's soft.
I need a little bit of crunch.
Or, you know, there's too much meaty taste here.
I need something to cut the grease.
I need some acidity.
I need some balance there.
So...
And I know it's 4th of July, so I was making some chili.
And one of the ingredients in the chili was to put in some espresso powder, some cocoa espresso powder.
I was like, what?
Why would we put that in there?
And that is exactly what you say, to counterbalance some of the other flavors.
So being a good negotiator isn't being one note.
It is having the full arsenal of techniques at your disposal so that you can be hard when you need to be hard.
And then you can be soft when you need to be soft.
Exactly.
When it comes to being strong, I love the specificity of not nodding.
Do you have any other specific tips for the listeners?
Yeah.
I mean I also think that Holding your cards to the vest a little bit can be another useful technique.
And it's funny because, even as I say this, I feel a little bit of internal turmoil, because I taught at Harvard Law School with their principal negotiation framework, and getting to yes is what it's all about.
I still negotiate with the principled framework when I do business. deals or legal negotiations.
And the reason is that most of the time you're talking about repeat business.
So working off of principles, discovering interests, all that kind of stuff is awesome and is great.
At the same time, when you are an SMB owner for 16 years and you know this yourself from running American Negotiation Institute you have to negotiate very tough all the time as well.
And so in those instances, it really helps to do things like holding your cards closer to the chest.
So one thing that is a typical sequence that happens in a negotiation and ultimately I look at negotiation as, like this, cultural norm.
And there are ways of doing the dance that are expected.
And so one of the dance moves that is expected, I think, in a negotiation is what I call negotiation bartering, where it's like all right, I'll trade you this deal point for that deal point.
You trade me this deal point for that deal point.
So in that situation it helps where the other side doesn't really have the proper weighting on your deal points.
And what people will do as hard bargainers sometimes is they'll pretend that something is important to them even though it's not.
It's like going to the car purchasing lot, to the dealership lot, and saying, you know, I would get this car, but it's the wrong color.
It's It's blue.
I really, really had my heart set on red.
Now secretly, you actually wanted the blue one, but you're pretending like it's something that you really cared a lot about.
So then when it finally comes down to it, you're like, all right, fine.
Look, since it's not the color that I want, give me not about $500.
I'll just take this blue colored one.
So that's an example of kind of being strong by not just revealing all of your cards and saying look, this is exactly how I feel about.
At the same time, you can be a hard bargainer by trying to genuinely get at what are their interests.
And if you find out what they're genuinely interested in, but it's a little hazy, what's important to you and what's less important to you then now you have information asymmetry and you can use that to your advantage.
So again, it depends on the situation.
If I'm negotiating with you know, North Korea maybe I'm going to be a little bit more obtuse about my position.
However, if I'm negotiating with Kwame Christian, then hey, it's all open book to you, my friend.
I appreciate that.
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
And you need to make that determination of what type of relationship and what type of interaction we're having.
And I really appreciate you bringing up the typical getting to yes style collaborative negotiation approach, because I think one of the issues that comes with that is the belief that this approach is the way, when it is a way, one of the possible ways.
It's a tool in your arsenal.
And I think Chris Voss did a great job of outlining the differences because if you go against the hard bargainer and you are completely win-win collaborative, there's going to be a problem.
Yes.
Yes.
I think that It kind of goes down to game theory also, just like you point out, and the prisoner's dilemma.
And it turns out that one of the most effective algorithms in a prisoner's dilemma type scenario, where you have to collectively a medium amount to gain if you work together, where you will have more to gain if you win and the other side loses if you play hard and the other one's soft
But if you both play hard, then you kind of end up at the bottom.
When computers play against each other, the scenario that works the best, the algorithm that works the best, is the tit for tat strategy.
So you start off nice and hopefully the other side reciprocates.
But if they don't, and they start going hard bargaining and take advantage of you and don't yield an inch when you're yielding miles, then you have to switch your strategy and then follow them and then go with the hard stuff.
I love that you brought up game theory.
This is great.
This is great.
Yeah.
And I think that's a brilliant way of contextualizing the issue.
And when it comes to being open and sharing information, that tit for tat strategy works very well.
Because, going back to what you said about the information asymmetry, if we give information then they don't give information and we give more information.
The information asymmetry is significant.
And it gives them more leverage relative to you in that negotiation.
And we don't want to do that.
And so the tit for tat strategy works well there.
And another added benefit is that if you withhold a little bit of information, you can use it as a bargaining chip to trigger reciprocity to get them to share more information.
So if you reach an impasse, you could share a little bit of information that you hung back before and encourage them to reciprocate in order to get things going again.
But if you give it all up front, now you have nothing else to give.
And all of this I think is really novel frankly, for us to be addressing in appreciation podcasts.
Because that is one of the feedback that I would hear typically in a typical principled negotiation classes where the students are like this sounds good, but I have this unnerving feeling that this isn't like real life.
It's like the book goes out the window as soon as there's a lawsuit or as soon as the deal that your entire career hangs on is in front of you.
And that's why it is important to acknowledge that negotiation is very much a real world thing.
It is, frankly, more of a street skill than any kind of an academic skill.
I was actually playing tennis with an old buddy of mine, and he used to be an advertising executive at NBC.
And I told him I was teaching this negotiation workshop, and he said, oh, psh.
Negotiation is easy.
Whoever cares the least wins.
And I was like, oh, yeah, I think I think you just thought the course in 10 seconds.
That is like what a hard bargainer thinks is it's all about leverage.
It's all about posturing.
It's all about what you care about.
You know, not caring for the other side as much and feeling psychologically strong inside.
And there's so much truth to that.
You know, a lot of times it does come down to negotiation leverage.
But some people are better at playing off their leverage than other people.
I agree.
And I think this segues really well into posturing.
So tell us a bit more about that one.
Yeah.
I mean, I think that how – playing a negotiation hand is like playing a poker hand.
So just like I was saying that sometimes you don't want to make it clear what cards you're holding.
Sometimes you want to suggest that you're holding pocket aces by the amount of money that you're putting down on the table.
And so you can fake out the other side that way as well.
So I think posturing, especially in law, is pretty important.
Right now we're having a great conversation in a – let's say, a litigation negotiation.
A lot of times, it's not going to be that way.
And if the other side starts going on an avalanche about all the ways that your client is wrong, you might want to stop that.
And you might want to be like, hold on, I disagree with that.
Or show even like a frowny face or kind of cough or just be like, hold on and put your hand up.
Little things that are part of trying to even that balance at the beginning, because there is a psychological tug of war that transpires during a difficult negotiation.
And you're going to want to do the things that posture so that they feel that you're confident, that you feel strong in your position and that you're not going to let them run away with the deal all the way through.
I agree.
And it's such an important part of it.
And I love the fact that with this, with the three points that you provided, it started off really nice.
It just started to get darker and darker as we went on.
But it's true.
It's real.
It's an important part of the game at OSU's law school.
They have now.
They have the top ranked negotiation program in the country and they use the collaborative win win getting to yes style as well.
But the reality is, though.
The thing that people don't want to talk about is listen.
It can get really dicey.
And sometimes it is a situation where they're like in litigation.
I need to fight for my client and you need to fight for your client.
And that's the fact.
That's where we are at this point.
And putting up those walls is going to be important.
So for you, how are you able to stay strong and posture without difficulty destroying the relationship?
So those are kind of like the heat that i'm packing, like i don't want to show up to the fight without having some weaponry, but i'd rather not pull out the weapon if i didn't have to.
I'd like it just to be felt that i'm not a total victim.
But if I don't have to reveal behind my coat the thing that's sitting at my hip man, that's a whole heck of a lot better.
So for me, this is all kind of last resort.
I want to go in there.
I want to be friends.
I want to be on their side, even if it's a litigation negotiation.
First thing I want to do to help my client out is talk to the other lawyer and say man, our clients are crazy.
And get us off of you are your client's proxy.
I am my client's proxy.
Instead, we are the cooler heads that will prevail.
We are the voices of reason.
These guys are nuts.
They're both nuts.
I'm a lawyer.
You're close to me.
Let's figure this thing out together.
Let's be like arbitrators trying to figure out a solution.
We're like NASA scientists figuring out how to make the rocket land on the moon.
So we're on the same side.
So it's all about trying to bridge that gap.
And I would say almost all of my negotiations, it stops at step one, which is building rapport.
But if you have to, then steps two and three are there. as well.
You know, you got to stay strong in the face of the storm.
You got to be able to play that game.
And number three.
You know step three.
You got to be doing those things that are going to give you psychological advantage in the negotiation sparring when it gets to it.
I love this.
This is great.
And speaking of sparring, shameless plug, we will be doing a sparring session.
So check it out for the next episode.
But I love how you were able to, especially in the context of litigation, build rapport based on the commonalities of the enemy combatant, as you might say.
I understand your situation.
You understand my situation.
We are the same.
We're playing for the same team, the legal profession.
Let's figure this out.
It's a really great thing.
And I think a lot of times lawyers make the mistake of essentially becoming an extension of the emotional limbic system of their clients.
It's like, hey, you're supposed to be the barrier here.
You're making it worse.
You've magnified the problem, because not only do you have that emotional issue, but you have it with legal skills that can do damage.
Okay.
You are a true negotiation nerd if you're going to talk about extending the emotional limbic system of the client.
That's pretty awesome.
I love that.
And you're right.
A lot of times, that's where a client...
What a client is looking for from their lawyer is they want that extension of the emotional limbic system.
They want somebody to say, I get you.
I feel you.
That person's a jerk.
The client is hiring you to say those things, to feel that way, to go in there with knives and daggers.
So the first thing you want to do is you want to disarm the opposing counter.
Right.
And recognize that there are at this point two negotiations happening, because you're not only negotiating with opposing counsel, but you are first negotiating with your client, because you need to manage those expectations and get them on the same page.
And one of my mentors said that sometimes when he would send an email to the opposing counsel, if the client wanted to be copied on the email, that email would be just fire.
It would be fire.
But as soon as he sends the email-
He picks up the phone and calls the lawyer and says, listen, my client was copied on that email.
So just ignore all of the heat that was there.
Playing a role.
Exactly.
Yes.
There's so many things that you can say that can help disarm the conflict.
And if the other side isn't willing to play ball, you can say look, then there is no point in having our clients, who are at each other's necks, to have attorneys.
They might as well just go at it themselves.
But the reason why they have us is so that we can help bridge this gap, so that we can find a solution that works for both of them.
That's why we're here.
Definitely.
And one thing we talked about before in our pre-call was understanding the options and your BATNA.
Before we end, can you chat about that too?
Yes.
I think the key term that is taught in most negotiation classes is BATNA and that stands for Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement.
I'm sure that word has been thrown around in your podcast many times.
But it is basically your backup plan, what you're going to do if the negotiation fails to reach agreement.
And so people become rather BATNA obsessed, but not in a good way, in my opinion.
You're thinking, oh my gosh, if I don't get this job offer, my BATNA is to go into the unemployment line.
What people should really think about when they first enter into a negotiation is how in the world they're going to improve their back.
So if I have a big job offer negotiation coming up, the first thing I should do is try to get a second job offer on the table.
Even if you don't get a job offer on the table, a second one, if you merely set things in motion where a interview is being scheduled, that's going to give you that psychological boost you need to be like oh yeah, I got something else percolating.
I'm not all wholly dependent on this one thing.
If you have a big deal coming up, potentially with a huge company like Google, the very first thing you should do is to pick up the phone and call Microsoft.
Working on improving your BATNA is the number one thing people should do.
And the other thing that they should do, instead of obsessing over their own BATNA, is really think hard about the BATNA of the person that they're negotiating with.
Because usually you are underestimating your BATNA and overestimating the other side's BATNA.
But they may have a similarly bad one to yours.
After all, that's why you guys are at the negotiation table because you need each other.
So if you remind yourself that their BATNA isn't all that pretty either, that's going to help give you that psychological boost that you need.
I love it that in itself, just understanding alternatives and the psychology behind it and the strategy behind it, that probably will be an episode by itself.
That's very great.
And the thing is, I wish we could go deeper on it, but we're just going to have to touch it for now because I still want to make time for the sparring session.
But before you go, I want to give you an opportunity again to tell the listeners how they can get in touch with you and some of the things you're working.
Thank you so much for that opportunity.
This has been great.
So I encourage folks to check out Loyola Law School's executive education program.
It's called LLX.
The website is llx.lls.edu.
And you'll see that we have an online negotiation course that dives into everything that we're discussing here in this podcast.
We have over 65 videos that were shot really high end with cool motion graphics and just really really entertaining hard production, value stuff.
And with interactive exercises, including things like a choose your own adventure negotiation, where you choose lines of dialogues in a negotiation and get a differential video outcome based on it.
Really, really cool.
And we have a new cohort launching in September.
But we will have new courts launching every couple of months.
So there should be a class for you anytime that you want.
This course also will have two live negotiation simulations where you'll negotiate with somebody else in the class, and gives you a great chance to do something that has no stakes at all.
It gives you a chance to try out some of the strategies and tactics that we teach.
The class is very much focused on principal negotiation and hard bargaining tactics, with lots of storytelling, lots of examples, even professional actors reenacting negotiation scenarios.
So I'm super duper proud of the class.
I teach it.
It's been a labor of love for me, and I hope you will check it out.
That is fantastic.
Very, very cool.
Well, thank you again for coming on the show, Hamilton.
We really appreciate it.
Thank you so much, Kwame.
It's been a pleasure.
That's the power of a masterclass.
One topic, multiple lenses and real world application.
Negotiation isn't theory.
It's practice.
It's self-awareness.
It's choosing courage over comfort.
So pick one insight today and apply it in your next conversation, because skill doesn't come from listening.
It comes from doing.
I'll catch you in the next one.
Hey, if you're still here, that means you really like this episode.
So why don't you leave us a review?
Five stars, please.
That really means the world to us and it helps other people find the show.
And now, I will catch you later.
