Welcome to this negotiation masterclass edition of Negotiate Anything.
With over 1600 episodes featuring some of the world's brightest minds, we've carefully curated three powerful conversations for you.
What makes this so special is that you'll hear how different experts from different industries approach the same challenge in their own unique ways.
Our goal is to give you multiple perspectives so you can build your own unique style.
Success doesn't look the same for everyone, and in this masterclass you will see exactly why.
Let's dive in.
Sarah, thanks for joining us today.
Sure thing.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, it is my pleasure.
Long overdue, to be honest.
So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Sure.
So I've been in politics and government for somewhere around 12 to 13 years now.
And that's really the basis of my involvement.
But I've also had a career in government.
But now I've moved into the private sector and exploring some avenues there.
But I...
I ran for public office a couple of years ago and lost, so I'm really excited to dig into that and how negotiating and fear tie into that, as well as just talking about how women in politics and my involvement there.
I've worked for a lieutenant governor and a governor, as well as in state agencies, traveled the country for a campaign and been involved at really the local, state and national level in campaigns, so I'm excited to dig in.
Absolutely.
And this is a fun topic.
Fun not in that like experiencing fear is enjoyable, but fun in that there is a lot to explore here and a lot to learn.
And so our topic is going to be negotiating through fear.
And so we're going to talk about at the beginning.
First, we're going to discuss how to negotiate away the fear internally, for yourself and externally, when you're helping other people to overcome their fears, recognizing that you don't need to be perfect.
And then in the political world fundraising, which is always scary both for the people who are raising funds and the people who are being asked.
And so how can we use some of these negotiation principles in that realm?
So let's just start off by talking about fear in negotiation in general or difficult conversations in general.
What are the things that we need to know about that?
Yeah.
So I think there's some pretty universal things, whether you're having a dialogue with your spouse or your boss Or you're trying to negotiate whether or not you actually want to do something like run for public office.
And I think it's getting just like really clear on why you're doing what you're doing and what your interest is in the conversation.
I think knowing what we want to do and why is the first place where we can come to negotiation or conversation and being able to be authentic and able to bring up our best points.
And I think the other thing that's really important is understanding where the other person is coming from.
And we can go into this a little bit later, but something I use is incentive structures.
It's principles from economics, but I use it in every part of my life, whether I'm negotiating with my husband on where we want to have dinner, or I'm talking to a candidate and trying to help them explain and understand how their private sector career is going to be very different from being in the public office and public life.
Absolutely.
Well, let's talk about those incentives.
So for those who are not as well versed in economics, what do you mean by incentives?
Sure.
So, in a very simple sense, like think about a company who sells a good or service or product, like let's think of Pepsi, big brand.
They sell soda to a lot of people.
Right.
And companies.
They want to offer a good or service and they want to be paid fairly for what they offer.
We want to be able to enjoy their soda.
We want it to be delicious.
We want it to be at a fair price.
And so we want a couple of things.
Incentives for us are we want it to taste good and we want it to be accessible and we want it to be a pretty good price.
They want to be able to make money and offer something that where they can continue to get new people that like it and continue to buy it.
So, on a very simple basis, we're both looking for different things on each side of the incentive structure.
Very nice.
Yeah, absolutely.
And now, when we think about fear, how can we wrap this concept of fear and how fear impacts us in difficult conversations with potentially some incentives?
I think that's a really interesting potential blend.
Yeah.
So something that's been popping up for me in some of my work, that I do like working with other women is negotiating things like salaries or raises.
That comes up quite a bit, but it also relates to this work in politics and deciding whether or not to run.
There's this fear because we want to be able to or really anyone wants to be able to ask for, whether it's a salary that's at market rate or a salary that you think you deserve.
But there's some fear there because I think all of us have some ideas in our head.
We've got our own narratives of what we think we deserve, what we've been told we deserve.
All these little things that pop up, that create this idea of imposter syndrome, right?
Like that everyone experiences at various points.
But that whole fear that pops up is not a reason not to do something.
And that's that portion where we talk about fear and how we're using it.
But I think that this fear that pops up comes from.
I mean, everyone's got insecurities about how they see themselves.
And sometimes I think that's where a lot of this is coming from.
One hundred percent.
And I don't know about you, Sarah.
You could jump in and you could probably just say yeah Kwame, your word is just you.
But I feel as though, when it comes to imposter syndrome, at least for me, it's something that I haven't really gotten over in terms of like, I don't stop feeling that way.
I just recognize that I will feel that way and I still need to do what I need to do despite the fact that I feel the way that I feel.
Yep.
I would totally agree with that personally.
And I think that most people that I've kind of been able to talk to imposter syndrome about would totally agree with that.
And I think the difference between, like imposter syndrome, is something that's this debilitating fear, and it not being a debilitating fear is doing it anyway.
It's this idea and understanding that maybe the fears that are coming up are things that are supposed to be there.
What if every single person who's ever run for office has been so scared and fearful and thought they're not good enough?
And so I think it's this idea of doing it anyway and realizing that you're in really good company if you've got some fears or some jitters of what you're about to do.
And it probably means that you really care.
Yeah, it means that you really care and that you are self-aware.
If you are overconfident and you say, oh, I won't have any problems.
This is going to be super easy.
Yeah, you might be missing something.
And sometimes that fear can be a helpful signal to focus your preparation, because sometimes maybe you are experiencing that fear or insecurity because you genuinely aren't good enough or to have the skills at that time.
Notice I say at that time.
And so you say, all right, what do I need to do to acquire said skills?
Okay, great.
I'm going to do that.
And then I'm going to do it anyway, just like you said.
And then you grow a little bit and you realize it pops up all over again when you are up for promotion or you're starting a new podcast or a new business venture, right?
And you have to like grow that competence all over again.
It's the people who do it anyway, who get to the other side, who are able to channel that.
And the thing is, no, it doesn't go away.
I still have it.
I do too.
So I'm glad I'm not weird.
Okay.
And so when we talk about negotiating that fear internally, I think we've discussed that with the insecurities that fear.
But what about others?
How can we help them to overcome their fears so they can do what it is that they need to do?
Yeah, so that's something I'm still exploring myself in my work.
But one of the things that I've found is to break things down to a really simple level, like get kind of fun and childish with it.
And I'll give you an example.
So when I was in my last salary negotiation I was scared out of my mind because I had done all my research.
That's the thing about like, even if you've done all your research and I've noticed this with women in politics they do their research for years and sometimes they still don't take that step forward.
That research is wonderful, but it's actually getting to the point where you move through that.
And in my last salary negotiation, I was so scared, but I knew I needed to practice.
So I sat down with my husband and And I said you need to help me, just like let's, let's role play through this with boxes of cereal.
And so I had him negotiate with me about which cereal we were going to buy for the cafeteria.
And it sounds ridiculous and silly, but that idea of working through those and taking that something so trivial that isn't related to money or doesn't have all those money, scripts and things like that, taking something like he was negotiating for Fruity Pebbles and I was negotiating for something a little healthier, and just really going through that process.
We got to a compromise.
And then we worked through the salary negotiation with the numbers before I went in for the salary negotiation.
And it was probably.
I mean, that didn't take away the fear.
Spoiler alert but it made it so much easier.
And so one of the things that I've been exploring lately is when I'm working with women who are running and doing things like pulling out some k-cups or sugar packets or whatever we happen to have on the table and we're sitting down doing fundraising calls and making it about like let's ask me for some sugar packets and let's negotiate.
Making it so simple and really taking all the stuff out of it really helps to simplify and make it a little less scary, because if you can negotiate and get comfortable with the uh, the sugar packets and the compromise or the cereal, it makes it a little bit easier to actually go do it.
Yeah, you're making it more approachable.
I think that's really what it comes down to.
And what's interesting is that these examples that you're giving, they're fun.
They don't have to do with money, but they're fun.
And the same thing, like the same underlying principles will apply.
That's the cool part, right?
Okay.
The issue isn't about really the negotiation.
The issue is about what you're negotiating for in that case, because you didn't have any problem with cereal, but you had a lot of problem with money.
We get it now.
Well, great.
So here's what we're going to do.
We're going to have some fun reps.
We're going to practice.
You're going to practice your skills in a low stakes environment and then it'll help you to have more confidence when it comes up.
But I really appreciate you saying that you'll still feel it.
You'll just be able to function at a higher level.
Yeah.
And now let's say that was a good example of how your husband worked with you in that situation to get you to feel more comfortable.
Let's say you are talking to somebody who you think would be a fantastic candidate, but she says you know what?
I don't feel comfortable doing this.
I'm very afraid.
I don't think I'm qualified, even though she clearly is.
And then the guy that she's running against is significantly less qualified.
I don't know if I'm hitting close to home with any of this.
But how do you have that difficult conversation with her to help her to feel more empowered and overcome those fears?
Well, first I will say I have never talked to a woman who has not cited one of those reasons for not running.
And every single one of them has already been more than qualified.
And so I mean just side note for anyone who's listening if you're thinking about running, you're already qualified.
Like, do it anyway.
But back to the point, like when I talk to a woman who cites those reasons.
There's always going to be a million reasons.
One of the last women that I really pushed to run, she had already done a lot of her homework.
So this was a woman who kind of wanted to run.
She was keeping it really close to the vest, but she had been going to the public meetings for the body she wanted to run for for a while at that point, like literally taking notes, doing research, doing homework all while she was a full-time job and a family.
And she continued to do this for two more years before she decided to run, right?
Amazing, right?
Like these are.
Women are incredible candidates to run for office, and so are men, but women are incredible candidates because they do their homework and they really put together their plans.
Anyway.
So she was preparing along the way and I could tell she was really scared and she didn't want to come out with the fact that she was running.
But I'm putting it together and I'm going.
You're going to public meetings, you're doing all of your homework.
You need to run.
Like this shouldn't even be a question.
And so I looked her in the eye one time after one of these public meetings and I said you have to run.
And she kind of paused and just kind of stared at me with this like, blank, fear-stricken face.
And I could tell, like all the thoughts of maybe I shouldn't run, or I'm not good enough, or I'm not qualified, or running through her head.
And I just kept pushing her.
I mean, everyone needs something like that in their lives.
And a lot of times we don't have that person close to us, right?
And so talking through those things, like you are qualified, you've done the work.
I think one of the most helpful things that I've done in terms of being able to understand that we're really ready is like identifying the thought, like what is the thought that's holding us back?
Or what's the self doubt?
It's I don't think I'm qualified, or I don't think I could win, or I don't think I could do whatever.
And then writing down and understanding all the times where we've done something that fits the bill.
Right.
So in my case, when I ran for office, I was super scared and I was like, I'm not qualified.
I can't, you know, I don't know if I can play ball with all the people on council.
Cause I mean, you're walking into a situation where the city manager has an agenda.
Every single person who comes to give public comment has an agenda.
Every single city council person has an agenda.
But the thing is is I'm somebody who was sitting there after 10 years being in politics saying that to myself.
And I realized the fears that I had were the same as somebody who's just dipping their toe in.
And so this is pretty universal in terms of looking inside yourself and saying like no, I'm going to do this anyway.
Because and the thing I think more people are starting to become aware of is that we need diversity in opinions ideas stories backgrounds, all of it.
And so that's why we all need to, I mean, if somebody wants to run, they should run.
That's why.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
No, and I think one of the points that you made that was so profound and, at the same time, so simple that i think people would miss it.
Um, when you were talking about your, your friend, who you're trying to get to run, you looked her in the eye, you were very direct.
You didn't come up with any like long-winded um oration.
You said you need to run four words direct eye contact, don't even fluff.
Sometimes you need that direct message and i'm assuming you correct me if i'm wrong she did not say you know what?
Sarah, you're right, i will in fact run based on those four words.
No, that's not how it worked.
Right?
Earlier you mentioned pepsi.
Is there ever a time that Pepsi will stop marketing or advertising?
Probably not.
Probably not because that works.
Repetition is one of the simplest ways to convey a message.
And you need to keep on saying sometimes you can do this.
You're qualified.
You should run and just keep on doing this over time.
And eventually it becomes part of them.
You should do it.
You're qualified.
You should run.
Right.
And so it's almost like marketing.
It's a blend of negotiation, difficult conversations, but also marketing, because we have to be persistent over time.
It's very rare that we get people to overcome their fears right there in the moment.
Sometimes it takes a little bit of repetition.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
One of the things that people struggle with is the idea that they need to be perfect.
And so let's talk a little bit about that.
And first, why that's a problem, because I don't know, Sarah, it sounds perfect.
Sounds nice.
Why can't people try to be perfect?
You're talking to a someone who has lived in her life by perfectionist ideals.
And it's like I'm going to tell you right now, like no one's perfect.
I'm not perfect.
And getting stuck in this idea of trying to be perfect before we do something or doing things perfectly.
One takes the fun out of everything. and two, honestly just gets in the way.
And so yeah, so perfectionism is like a very interesting topic for me because it's something that like I have, I mean, it's something that I mean as a very type A person.
You probably know this already you want to do everything.
You want to do everything the right way and perfect.
And it's often not how life is.
And I think that walking away from that a little bit and realizing that I mean you're human, we're human, we're all human, it gives you a lot more freedom to play around with the possibilities.
I know that's very out there lofty in the sky, but let me.
Let me give you a really concrete example, right so, And this kind of dives into our next conversations in the future about fundraising.
But I was running for elective office and there was somebody that I was fundraising.
I was going to be asking for money.
Key donor donates to a ton of campaigns.
So probably expecting that I'm going to be asking them.
And I was so worried about the perfect ask and the perfect conversation and how to ask this person for money, even though they had kind of insinuated they were going to donate to me.
I realized at the end of my campaign when the donation check never came in or it was about two weeks before the campaign ended.
I don't think I'd ever actually asked because I was so worried about having the perfect asking conversation with this person because I regarded that I had a lot of respect for them.
And in some ways they had a lot of leadership in the community and they were going to donate to me anyway.
But I was so focused on How do I ask it perfectly and not offend this person that I never actually asked.
Long story short, I eventually realized that rectified the situation.
They donated.
We're very gracious about it.
It was fine.
But how often do we either forget to do something or allow ourselves to not do something because we're so worried about doing it perfectly?
Yeah, I think perfectionism and procrastination oftentimes are manifestations of fear.
So you try to think that you are being productive when you are being, you know you're avoiding what it is that you actually need to do.
I can't tell you how many times, Sarah, there's something that I need to do.
Just like let's talk about administratively like hey, let me send that email, fill out that document, those type of things.
And I'm like, oh, my gosh, I cannot bear to do this.
And then when I finally do it, you know, it takes about 45 seconds.
But one of the things that I found is that oftentimes fear feeds on time.
The more time you give it, the bigger it gets.
The fear just grows and it becomes more and more debilitating.
So, of course, you don't want to make snap judgments and put together shoddy work.
But you want to say, all right, what is enough?
Taking another term that I think it was from us.
There's a decision-making book.
It was called Satisficing.
So it's something that is sufficient.
It suffices in this situation.
And it satisfies what it is that you need.
It's not perfect, but is it good enough, right?
And in the majority of cases, you just need to get things done.
It just needs to be done.
And then if you'd spend a few minutes, a few hours, a few days making it perfect.
It is imperceptible to everybody, but you.
Yep.
Oh, it totally is.
Have you heard of minimal effective dosing?
I'm sure everyone has.
It's from Tim Ferriss.
It is a strategy that I started implementing during 2020, during the pandemic.
And I found that it was like a very effective antidote for perfectionism for me, because I broke it down and I'm like I feel like I have to do 110 of everything on this one task.
So I was like, what would be minimal effective dosing?
And I would literally write it down and I would do it.
And I found the ball started rolling on so many things.
And as the ball starts rolling, it starts coming together, and it's certainly not perfect, but so many more things come out of it.
And I think creativity is able to be used a lot more of the time in those situations.
So it similar and i love it.
It's techniques like that, i think, are just really helpful and just like ripping off the band-aid and just doing it anyway 100 100, and i think this is a good time to transition into asking for money, the fundraising.
So let's put this all together in in that situation in politics, you're asking for money so you can have a campaign.
It's a necessary evil in this world, right?
And so, when you're making those requests and trying to court the big donors, what are some of the negotiation tactics that you've used that have been successful?
Sure, yeah.
So one of them is just.
I mean, I think, as you know, any attorney or anyone's going into a negotiation you do your research in advance.
So like, you know where the person's coming from.
And in our case, donations are public.
You can go to the Secretary of State's office.
You can go to your local board of elections.
And you can actually see how much various people have donated to campaigns, which is awesome because if you're curious about a donor, you know how much they donate.
To say, state races versus local races.
And you kind of narrow that gap.
So it's one thing just right off the bat pre-work researching.
But the other thing I like to walk into a situation or a negotiation over money and fundraising is is knowing what the interest is in the campaign right.
So every single person who's donating to a campaign has a different reason for why they're donating to that campaign.
Some people are going to be close to you because they love you and they're your friends and they're your family and they just want to see you succeed, regardless of whether or not they even agree with your policies.
Some people are going to be those community members who have a vested interest in what happens on city council or the state house or the governor's race.
And that could be anything from.
They want to make sure that the community has great standards to.
They literally have an incentive over or an interest in certain policies because they literally affect their bottom line.
Right.
So like think of a governor who comes in and is more restrictive on certain businesses.
That could be an interest point.
So there are a lot of different reasons.
And knowing where you, So this is really important.
Knowing why you're running and knowing what your values are, I think are the key to being able to walk into these situations and know when to ask for money and then also when to walk away.
Every single I think there's.
I think fundraising and money in politics gets a really bad rap because you read the headlines right.
There's been stories in the past year that have just like shed a light.
And that's really like the two to 5%.
The vast majority of money in politics is not this secrecy stuff.
And I think that's something that we don't really realize until we're in the political realm.
But I bring that up only to say, knowing when to walk away.
I've never had a situation like this, but I've heard of stories where there are certain donors who want certain things and the money has strings.
Thankfully, I was never in a situation with my campaign where any money I took had strings.
But if it had, knowing my values, I really would have walked away from that.
And so knowing when the negotiation turns to, I'm no longer comfortable negotiating with you, and I would need to walk away and save the relationship, as opposed to taking the money and then having a problem on the flip side.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I think that's really important for people to recognize too, because you brought this up.
I think people miss it, right?
Because not all money is good money.
And if you're not very clear on your values, what you stand for and what you hope to accomplish, and your, your ethics, then in the moment you're going to feel a lot of pressure, and pressure is a sensation that causes you to make worse decisions, whatever type of pressure it happens to be.
Absolutely.
Right.
And so you don't want to leave that up to chance, in terms of hoping that you just come up with the best decision on the fly in the moment, under pressure with an audience.
Instead, you want to prepare and say, okay, what is it clearly that I want in general?
What are my values?
What are the, what is acceptable?
What is unacceptable?
And then let me go in and have this conversation.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And so, when it comes to fundraising, what would you say is one thing that people can do in general.
If they find themselves in a situation where they're the politician, they're looking for bigger donations.
What would you say is one thing that they can do to improve their quality of fundraising?
The one thing I would tell and this is just across the board the one thing I would do is tell anyone.
When you're asking for money, look somebody in the eye and actually ask.
I think that some people think that they have a conversation and then they dance around it and they think they've made the ask, but they really haven't made the ask.
Ask.
The vast majority of people you're asking money for, like in any way PACs or individuals or groups.
They're expecting you to ask.
So make the ask.
It's the same thing as making like a salary negotiation.
Like you got to actually make the ask and then pause and leave some space, allow them to respond.
That would be the one thing.
And then, if I get out of the second one, it's if fundraising is really getting you to the point where you're like shaken in your boots.
Find a way to look at your campaign and your values and see yourself as a brand, that or a product, just momentarily, and detach you as the person away from that.
Because a donor who's not your friend or family, they're looking at you as somebody of type of leader, like a leadership product, somebody who's going to go there and do a certain thing.
And that's separate from your personal life.
And I think it's really important to do that, because Sometimes if you can't detach that, it's not you personally, it's this how you lead and what you do.
Separate from that.
It can get way too scary and way too personal for people.
Absolutely.
Oh man, this is great.
This is really great, Sarah.
We really appreciate it.
But before you go, can you let the listeners know again about you and how they can get in touch?
Yeah, absolutely.
The best way to contact me is looking me up on LinkedIn, Sarah Jantosh.
I love connecting with people who are interested in running for office and helping people remove those barriers.
I've been in politics for about 12 to 13 years now on various local, state and national level campaigns.
And it's something that I'm really interested in.
So reach out to me, regardless of political party, because I'm interested in supporting the people who really want to make a difference in our communities.
That's fantastic.
Sarah, thank you so much.
That was the first part of today's masterclass.
Up.
Next we'll hear from another expert with a different approach, giving you even more strategies to add to your toolkit.
Let's keep it rolling.
There's an abundance of opportunities that will take all of the people who want to do all the things.
Like a lot of people say to me oh you know, if I'm a personal trainer and I'm going to build my brand, there's so many personal trainers online that already do that and build a business on that.
I'm like, yeah, but they don't have your personality, right?
A personal brand is made up of your skills, your experience. and your personality.
So they may have the same skills, they may have the same experience, but they don't have your personality.
So what can you do to show your life and your personality and your approach to training or fitness is just an example.
Maha, thanks for joining us today.
Thank you so much for having me, Kwame.
I'm so excited to be here.
Yes, likewise.
I'm excited too.
So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Great.
First of all, my name is Maha.
I am a strategic communications executive.
So I am American Egyptian.
I'm born and raised in the US, lived my whole life here and then spent the second half of my life living in Dubai and Egypt.
I have a strategic communications firm, means I'm a professional storyteller.
I help people tell their stories.
Incredible.
And a little birdie told me that you might have a book coming out.
I do.
I have a book coming out.
It's called The Seven Rules of Self-Reliance and it's a book that is inspirational and educational.
Every chapter has takeaway reflection exercises, downloadable guides.
But it's a book to how to operate in today's world.
Like what are the things, the tools that you need to be resourceful?
Self-reliance is not a term that a lot of people talk about.
Everyone thinks oh, i need to be independent, rely on myself.
That's exactly the opposite of what this book is about.
It's about being resourceful, investing in yourself, owning your future.
And what are the things you need?
To have, the skills, the tools, the experiences, the relationships to kind of do the things that you really want to do.
And that's what the book is about.
And it's coming out on October 8th and I'm really excited for people to read it and to people to learn from some of the things I've learned throughout my career.
I used to be the head of communications at Google in Dubai.
I launched Netflix in the Middle East.
I work with names like Gary Vee, Deepak Chopra, and I've been doing communications for more than 30 years.
Wow.
Okay.
So we have a well worth of information here and expertise.
And when you think about all of your years doing communication work at the corporate level, but also with individuals what would you say are the keys to effective communication?
One is you have to know your audience.
Like who are you trying to talk to, so that you know how to tailor your message or how to customize your message?
The second thing if you want to be good at communications, like anything else in life, it takes practice.
Like, communications is a skill and a tool that will never go out of style, even with AI.
Even with all the trends things that are trends are happening in business, where people are working remotely and hybrid.
You got to be good at storytelling.
You got to be good at connecting with audiences and you have to be really, really good at communications.
I think the other thing is you got to be consistent like how you show up, be intentional, be authentic, be a communicator that really is consistent in what you talk about or what you're passionate about or your style.
I think those are a couple of really few good tips to begin with.
I agree.
And knowing your audience.
Practicing, recognizing that you can always get better at the skill and then consistency.
Those are so crucial.
And at the same time, people often overlook these basic things.
And when you think about communication and the mistakes that people typically make, what are some of the biggest mistakes that hold people back?
I think a lot of people don't communicate either on social media or in real life, either speaking or being networking at events, because they're afraid of what other people think.
And isn't that a terrible way to live?
It's like you don't want to dip your toe in the water because you're afraid you'll be judged.
You'll be afraid of people saying, who does she think she is?
So my advice to you is to do it.
This is you get one life.
Life is too short.
You got to try things.
You got to taste things.
There is an abundance in this world.
There's an abundance of opportunities that will take all of the people who want to do all the things, like A lot of people say to me oh, you know, if I'm a personal trainer and I'm going to build my brand, there's so many personal trainers online that already do that and build a business on that.
I'm like, yeah, but they don't have your personality, right?
A personal brand is made up of your skills, your experience and your personality.
So they may have the same skills.
They may have the same experience, but they don't have your personality.
So what can you do to show your life and your personality and your approach to training or fitness is just an example.
It's a perfect example.
And it's so funny to me, or interesting, just how much of the challenges that people face in life come down to fear.
Because, the way that you're breaking this down, we can recognize that it is possible for us to improve our communication skills, but we often don't take that step because of that fear.
And so for the people who are saying, all right, I'm feeling inspired now, but I'm still scared.
What advice do you have for them for overcoming that fear of communication?
Yeah, I mean, we're reluctant.
We have that fear.
We're reluctant to fail, right?
Our relationship with fear has to change.
Like we're always afraid that if we do things, other people will see us.
They'll judge us for us.
We'll make mistakes.
So here's my practical advice is what's the alternative?
You decide not to do it.
What's the alternative?
You're sitting in status quo.
You're not growing.
You're not learning.
I think for people who want to get better at communications, the good news is there's a wealth of opportunities to do it from different sources.
You can learn from podcasts.
You can learn from YouTube videos.
You can learn from books.
There's amazing resources online.
And guess what?
It's free.
It's free.
The internet is free.
We live in a world where abundance of information is available at your fingertips to learn anything, and it's available for free.
The other thing is I learn a lot from people.
So never underestimate.
You can read from reading books.
You can learn from reading books or learn from podcasts or from going to YouTube.
But you can also learn from other people, from their experiences, from their businesses, from how did they get their first start, to some of the things that they're good at in communications that you want to learn from.
And I think people often overlook learning from people.
I agree.
And as a podcaster, obviously I love that too, because you can learn so much just listening to the stories from other people.
And then, when it comes to communicating, you can convey a lot of message when you become a better storyteller.
And I know that's something that you are incredibly good at, especially given your background of communication.
Can you tell us a little bit about power of storytelling as a persuasive tool?
So storytelling has the power to move us.
It has the power to ask us to take action or to inspire us.
And I think good storytellers do a couple of things.
One is they know how to connect with audiences.
So they tell it like it is.
They speak to us, not at us.
So good storytellers are able to connect with us because of not just what they say, but how they say it.
And I think storytelling is a form of persuasion.
It comes down to being authentic.
Like, are you trying to pull a fast one on me?
Are you actually telling me something that I can relate to?
Are you trying to connect with me in a way that speaks to me, in a way that I don't relate, if it's somebody else telling me that story?
And I think the biggest think of something that you see on social media a story, a post, something authentic.
What makes you share it on your feed or with your friends through a direct message?
It moves you.
It moves you.
It either was funny, it was emotional, it was shocking.
It was some sort of story that moved an emotion in you.
And I think when you're trying to tell a story, you want that.
Another thing is you want a story that is what we call snackable.
So snackable means easy to digest, something that's easy to understand.
So don't talk to me in complexities and jargon.
Like I want to like real talk.
I want to know what it is or how it works.
And just before we got on this call, we were talking about in the pandemic, about like how broadcasters were broadcasting in their kitchens and their dog would walk through the scene or a kid would be running in the background.
That was authentic.
Like we got to see them who they are.
And I think people connected with that.
I agree 100%.
And I love this point on authenticity too, because in society, we talk about it.
I think we pay it lip service, but we don't fully appreciate what it really means to be authentic.
Because sometimes people, when they're given that advice, hey, be authentic.
They don't even know who they are anymore.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean the biggest way for you to build your personal brand or to be an effective communicator is to be you right.
If you have to be this online persona or fake it till you make it, that's not going to be something you can sustain.
So when we talk about authenticity, that's what we're talking about.
Like be you.
Be who you are naturally, consistently with your friends or with your colleagues at work, because that's the person I want to see.
So on my social media, for example, I do a ton of communications advice, free tips and tricks, but I also show my authentic self crazy travel schedule.
Or my dog, who happens to be snoring during the show right now.
I don't know if everyone can hear it, but it's authentic.
It's real life.
It's what's happening.
And so I really want people to understand that you don't have to be polished.
You don't have to be produced.
You can just create content with your phone.
You don't want to be on camera.
Write a note, take a picture of that and post it.
You can build your personal brand and tell stories Not everyone wants to do it on social media.
And that's cool.
You need to build your brand or what I call your reputation offline just as much as you do online.
So how do you treat the barista?
How do you treat your colleagues?
How do you treat your partners?
How do you treat your suppliers?
How do you treat your employees?
How do you treat your team members?
That's having a good reputation and telling good stories.
Let's go deeper into the stories too, because one of the things that you talked about was stories move people.
And I recognize in the business world sometimes there's a reluctance to dig deep and be vulnerable and share those stories that could actually move people.
And we try to persuade with data and then we end up losing people along the way.
And so for those people who are professionals, who say maybe I am, I'm above emotional calls to persuasion.
I just persuade through logic and data.
What do you have to say to them about the use of emotion in stories?
I mean, we're humans, right?
So all business is personal.
And I feel like if you have a business relationship with someone, you don't just get in and get down to business.
You have coffee, you chit chat, you really build a relationship.
And the same thing for storytelling and for persuasion.
You have to have a good relationship.
A relationship is based on trust.
How can you build trust to connect with your audience?
How can you build trust to persuade someone?
How can you build trust to tell that story?
How do you build trust to make a connection?
And I feel like all of those are elements not only of persuasion and storytelling but fundamentally, relationship building.
Agreed.
Agreed.
And I think it can be really scary for people when they're first taking that step.
Because I mean for me my background.
I'm a lawyer and I spent years learning how to.
I'm using air quotes aggressively for the audio listeners be right in these types of conversations.
But then I recognized, especially as I started to transition into the business world, there was a need for that authentic connection.
And, And it took me a while to learn how to be authentic and learn how to be willing to share that vulnerable side of myself and connect emotionally.
And it wasn't until the TED Talk that I really got it, because I remember I was talking to the folks who were putting the TED Talk on and they selected me.
I was excited.
And they said well, the problem was with your initial vision for this and the way that you presented it.
It seemed like a like a professor giving a lecture.
And I was like, yes, that's what I was going for.
Yeah.
Like, no, no, that's not good.
So I really had to reprogram my mind.
But I just want to impress upon the listeners that if you take this leap, it is incredibly valuable.
And then I think what was really surprising about me is that I learned more about myself as I started to dig deeper within myself and allow myself to be more vulnerable and share.
Yeah, it's important.
I feel like we live in a time now where you bring your whole self to work like, especially if you're working remotely.
Are you taking mental health breaks?
Are you taking walks?
Are you managing your energy?
And I feel like we don't compartmentalize any more personal than professional, because we are passionate about things.
We want to do them and we want to be free to do them at the time that we place.
Like if you're a writer, sometimes you can work at night, but you want to work in the morning.
It depends.
But I feel like Our times are changing.
And so we need to keep up with the times by looking at what are the most important fundamental things, skills that we need to have.
And this book, The Seven Rules of Self-Reliance, kind of focuses on those.
One of the principles in the books is talking about be a value creator.
How do you create value for other people?
What are some of the things you can do to create value for others that will ultimately create value for you?
Because you're learning, you're getting experience, you're getting exposure, you're getting access or whatever.
And I feel like when you talked a little bit right now about the vulnerability of persuasion and sharing yourself, when you think about how to create value for other people, it automatically becomes a different mind shift for you and how to think about it.
Like you have to be a good listener.
You have to listen to what they care about.
You have to understand how their business works.
And when you create value for someone, it can build your business.
It can help grow your relationships.
And I really, really believe it.
And I've lived it.
So I know.
Absolutely.
And I think, when it comes to value creation, a lot of times we go in there centered on ourselves, focused on ourselves, and we don't focus on value creation for others.
We focus on how we can extract value from others.
I tell a story about how I worked for Gary Vee for almost a year.
I was like, I want to show him what I do.
I want to show him my intentions.
I want to create value for him.
And so I had to spend time learning about him, learning about his business, learning what he does, learning how he works.
And then I would have a good understanding of where I could bring value to him based on all of that insight and information.
So it's a process.
But you have to know when to play that long term game and when to play that role as a value creator.
And it's not what I think is valuable.
It's what I think you think is valuable.
And then I have to deliver on that.
What I have to ask you what are some of the things you are struggling with in your business, or what are some things you care about?
And then find a way to create value for you in the areas that you've articulated to me agreed, and this was such a nuanced point.
I want to make sure that the the listeners got it too, because a lot of times we might not lead with curiosity, because we're leading with assumptions and we say, oh yeah, i already know what this person wants and then we try to just give them that thing or force it upon them and then we wonder why our message is not received.
But there's a lot of humility that's required to say hey listen, i might not know everything.
Heaven forbid, I don't know everything.
I'm going to ask and see what it means to you and then also see how you articulate it.
Because then when I'm communicating with you, I can use the same language.
Yeah, I mean, that's a lot about what we're talking about.
When you have like, a self-reliant mindset or you think about being a value creator, like you, have to learn to listen first.
And we always go into things like how fast can we do it?
What is the transaction?
What do we need to do to deliver work for somebody without trying to at least take that inventory first?
So I always think about hustle culture is out, value culture is in.
Like, how do we think about not just working to stay busy and to really stay ahead and hustle, but be more intentional about it?
Like what's the value I can actually create and how can I help?
I always start by asking how I can help.
And find a way to solve a problem that someone else is facing and to create value for them in the areas where they need it the most.
And then, once I deliver on that, then be in a position to either ask for help myself or ask for advice or a connection or a relationship.
But I always go with the intent of giving value first.
So powerful.
And what I'm recognizing is that this requires a complete paradigm shift within ourselves.
I accept.
Because we have these strategies that we might be able to put in place, like we might be able to intellectually understand it.
But if we don't have that kind of heart-centered approach where we don't truly believe it and we change our focus to others versus ourselves, then we're still going to struggle to put these things into practice because we don't have the right mindset behind the skill set.
Yeah, I mean, the mindset is the shift that I think a lot of people struggle with.
Like, I know what I want to do.
I'm not able to achieve my goals.
I don't have the money.
I don't have the team.
There's a list of excuses or reasons, if you will, that people can't get to what they need to do.
Like, I have a business.
I want to grow it.
I don't have enough team.
I can't take on all the business I want because I don't have enough staff.
So then I'm like, in order to get staff, I got to get the business.
So it's like the chicken and the egg whole situation.
But just going back to your point about the mindset, one of the things that I think is like what I love people to adopt is this self-reliance sort of mindset.
Like I have the power within myself to achieve the goals and invest in myself.
It's not about individualism or independence or isolation.
It's about taking initiative.
It's about innovating.
It's about adaptability and agility.
It's about making decisions that are gonna have long-term benefit.
It's about leading and that growth mindset.
So thinking of like, okay, Do I need to really wait for my manager to give me that big project?
Or can I take initiative and innovate and find a way to create value for the company and volunteer to create this project that I really wanted to be appointed to do?
I'm just going to go do it.
Or I'm just going to present that I want to do this.
That's the mindset shift that I think we need to make.
I agree.
And as we're making these mindset shifts, as we're trying to navigate the world and be more self-reliant, there are going to be times where our plans don't work.
At all.
Into surprises and all of these types of things.
So can you talk to us about the power of resilience and adaptability?
100%.
It's completely related.
So self-reliance includes the ability to adapt, to evolve, and to build that resilience.
So The unexpected challenges such as those brought by the pandemic, or it really requires us to grow stronger and be more adaptable.
And I find that resilience and reliance go hand in hand because you are going to face challenges.
You are going to face setbacks.
That's what life is all about.
Right.
It's how you react to them and how you get the resources you need to get out of them.
So one of the things about being self-reliant is knowing like OK, I need to build a network of relationships, of business colleagues, of associates, a network.
It could be friends, could be family, it could be business.
So that when I have a problem or I'm faced with a challenge or I'm faced with something unexpected and I need to be resilient means how am I going to react to it and bounce back from it?
I'm going to need to have a network to rely on to help me get out of it.
Like I might need support or I need advice or need financial assistance.
It's not a good thing when I have to rely on somebody else's network to do what I need.
So like, let's say I get myself in a hole.
I need to have resources and relationships to get me out of that into a network.
I'm not gonna have to rely on your network, Kwame, to get me out of it.
So what I'd like to teach people is, How to build a network.
How to create value for your network.
How do you keep up with your network?
There's too many people I need to DM and keep up with and talk to and have coffees with.
I don't have time to be a full-time networker.
How do I master the art of the DM on LinkedIn?
How do I master the art of the DM on Instagram so I can meet that person or get to a meeting with them?
So all of those things build resilience.
All of those things build relationships and all of those things build your self-reliance.
And what I love about this, Maha, is going back to what you said.
This isn't isolationism or trying to just believe you're an island.
You're saying, hey, listen, people are part of the resources that I have.
I am going to invest in these relationships.
And I am very personally, very interested in how to keep up with people in your network, because you are absolutely right.
That can be extremely overwhelming.
It's overwhelming.
We get on LinkedIn and we get all those DM messages and it's just you think someone's trying to sell you something.
But I got a DM on LinkedIn and it ended me up on the board of directors of the Associated Press.
You got to know how to network properly, where to invest your time, who to invest your time with, how do you keep up those relationships properly?
What's something valuable you should do for your network?
How often do you need to talk to your network?
How do I get people in my network?
How do I get inside someone else's network?
These are skills that are crucial for today's environment and you have to know how to do it.
Absolutely.
Maha, this has been amazing.
I've taken an exorbitant amount of notes as we've gone through this.
But before you go, can you please let the listeners know about the book and how they can get in touch?
The book is available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble at Target, wherever you get your books.
And you can follow me on Instagram at Maha Gaber, M-A-H-A-G-A-B-E-R.
And join my Facebook group.
I share lots of tips.
I do lots of free webinars and workshops.
And that's called Seven Rules.
It's on Facebook.
Amazing.
Maha, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you.
It's a pleasure.
I'm going to start networking with you now.
Yes.
I'm going to bring you to my network and then we're going to network.
I love it.
Oh, this is so good.
So good.
Practical tips, lots of advice.
Get your copy today.
Yes.
Thank you.
You've just heard one powerful perspective and now we're moving on to the next.
A fresh voice with a new angle on the same challenge so you can keep expanding your skills.
Let's dive in.
Hello, everybody.
We have a special episode today because we have two guests with us who are color coordinated.
I wish you could see it.
We have Elle and Tim.
Thank you both for joining us today.
So nice to be here.
Thank you.
Yes, it is a pleasure to have both of you.
So how about we start off?
Belle, you can tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do, and then we'll pass the ball to Tim.
So I'm a professor at Boston College in the Lynch School of Education and Human Development.
I've been a faculty person there for more than 20 years and my research focuses on purpose and belonging and mentoring in schools and workplaces.
And I'm so glad to be here.
I'm Tim Klein, so I'm a clinical therapist by background, a social worker.
And so I've spent the majority of my career working with high schoolers, college students, graduate students, PhD students, people in their lives, really focusing on navigation points and how to find meaning when you're feeling lost.
And so I was really on the ground doing the work for a long time.
And then Belle and I serendipitously met and I learned about her research.
And we formed this really beautiful combination of using evidence-based research and purpose and belonging, but operationalizing that as a tool to help people find their way.
I love this.
And you all have come together and created a book.
Can you tell us about that too?
Yeah, so we just published a book through St.
Martin's Press.
It was launched in August and it's called How to Navigate Life The New Science of Finding Your Way in School, Career and Beyond.
Yeah, and I'd say the reason we had to write this book is because we've been working with high school students, college students, graduate students and we found everyone is under unbelievable pressure to do the right thing.
And everyone knows what they should be doing.
But I think we realize in mentoring and providing guidance to a whole host of people that they've never been taught how to figure out for themselves what they want to do.
And so we have this generation across the spectrum of people working harder than ever.
And despite that, they're feeling more lost than ever.
And I felt that way for quite a long time, honestly, and I was trying to figure out.
And so when I connected with Bell and found out about the actual science of purpose and belonging yes, there is a science behind it.
That was a light bulb moment where this, oh this can be an incredible, powerful tool that people can use as a decision-making framework.
Yes, absolutely.
And I love this too, because I was one of those people working really hard and wondering what in the world am I doing?
You know, I still feel that way a lot of times.
So selfishly, I'm excited to hear so I could get some ideas on what to do next.
But also when you think about this through a negotiation perspective.
It doesn't really matter how good of a negotiator you are if you don't know what to negotiate for or you don't know how to make good decisions, because we have to have some direction for our skills.
So in this episode, what we're going to talk about is how purpose can help us to understand ourselves and what we really want but, more importantly, how it can help us to make better decisions when it comes to our negotiations and just in life in general.
And so let's start off with the importance of the internal negotiation, that introspective process where we begin to understand ourselves.
Can you tell us what that is and the value it has for?
One of the first things to recognize is that a lot of us make decisions based on fear.
And there are two particular fears that really drive us instead of purpose.
So we're just going to first set apart purpose from these two other drivers of decision making.
And the first is what we call the performance mindset.
This is the fear that you are going to fail, that you are not going to have what it takes to be successful in the world.
It's this view that life is a zero-sum game and that there are very few winners and a lot of losers, and that the goal of life is to win.
And in order to win, you have to beat out the competition, whether they're your rivals or your peers.
And so your life is then spent trying to succeed and to achieve according to other people's metrics and dreams.
You are setting yourself up to just try to measure up to what the world says success looks like.
So right now, and it's been the case for a long time that much of society views success based on these very narrow metrics, including power possessions, your accolades And, ultimately then, your view of success, if you believe this is to try to accrue the most accolades and the most prestige and the highest paying salary.
And so your decisions then are based on that.
The opposite of that is what we call the passion mindset.
It's this fear that you won't be happy, the fear of suffering and struggle.
And so if you believe that you are to try to avoid all discomfort and any kind of unhappiness and struggle, then you're going to try to make decisions that minimize negative emotion and try to maximize positive emotion.
We call that the passion mindset.
And the problem with that mindset is that ultimately it doesn't lead to happiness.
There's a lot of research that shows that the more you try to pursue happiness for happiness sake, the least happy you feel.
It's just a setup for feeling disappointed and disillusioned.
Purpose different.
It's the sense of pursuing what is personally meaningful, but also is a contribution to the world beyond yourself.
And I would just say I bet a lot of people listening here, especially in the negotiation field.
It's a performance mindset game, right?
You're going onto the battlefield and it's like your goal is to win, and you do that by beating out the competition.
The research actually shows that the more people have and this is coming out of Bell's Purpose Lab at Boston College that the more people view life as this zero, competitive hypersum game, higher levels of depression and anxiety, higher levels of burnout as well.
And the reason that is, it's you can go into that first negotiation and your goal is to win.
But what is your definition of success after that?
So in the performance mindset game, the goal is to be the best.
And that means there's one winner. the best negotiator, and then everyone else is a loser.
And so you might go in to that negotiation and crush it and win that negotiation.
How long does that good feeling last?
A week, two weeks, three weeks, and then it's on higher rung and it's on to the next one.
And it turns out what we're seeing now, the performance mindset makes you treat life like a race.
And it turns out, if you are on a never ending sprint, it's not a question of if you burn out, it's a question of when you burn out.
Oh my goodness.
We're going to have to stop this interview now because clearly you've been eavesdropping on my conversations with my therapist.
My goodness, this is so profound.
So profound.
You're absolutely right.
And it's funny because when we look at society, largely speaking, we have elements of society saying be the best, be the best, be the best, work hard.
If you're not working hard, work harder.
If you are working hard, work harder than that and achieve more.
And then when we have on the happiness side, it's like hey, do whatever it takes to be happy, right.
But we have been leaving out purpose.
And that messaging is really important.
And I'd like to kind of explore for a for people to appreciate the value of purpose, when it comes to thinking about purpose as a guiding light for your life.
I want to start, I'll just start by talking about what purpose isn't.
And then I think Belle, because she's the expert in this, can talk about the scientific definition of purpose and what it is.
But first, you know, that word, it's so loaded right there.
You know if and people hear that word and they think, like your purpose is, like your one true love where it's out there in the world and it's your goal to find it.
And people also think that purpose is you need to be sacrificing yourself to be changing the world.
So you need to be, you know you need to be solving climate change, solving world hunger, solving cancer.
And so purpose is, And unintentionally, like you think about people, it's like Gandhi, or it's Mother Teresa, it's these very lofty individuals.
They're inspirational, but they're not aspirational.
It doesn't feel like I can live that sense of purpose because it's out of reach.
And what purpose actually is, that is not what purpose is.
And every single person can have a sense of purpose because it is this mindset.
And so, Belle, why don't you share with them what purpose actually is?
Yeah.
So the research definition of purpose is living a life that's personally meaningful and is intended to contribute to the world beyond oneself.
Both of those components are important.
This personally meaningful piece is a little bit of that passion mindset but it's not all about my happiness and my personal meaning and what I can do for myself.
That focus alone is very anxiety provoking for most people.
When we study young people who are going through school and through their early career, the focus on personal needs being met is extremely burdensome thing.
And it's why there's a lot of anxiety and mental health issues among young people.
Is this sense that I have to be happy all the time, that I have to just serve myself?
It's hard to actually be able to put yourself as on the pedestal all the time.
The moment you look outside yourself and decide that you're going to also contribute and that you can, and that your life matters and that you have value and that you can contribute to the world beyond yourself.
That's a relief.
It's an understanding that we don't have to just be all about ourself.
We don't have to be all about me.
So purpose is this balance between living a life that's personally meaningful and is intended to contribute to the world beyond oneself.
Yeah, and just to bring that down a little bit, to make it a little bit more applicable on the ground it's like for people listening here what is personally meaningful about negotiation, like what is your favorite part of it?
Is it doing the research and the background information and figuring out all there is to know about what you're going to go into?
Is it structuring the conversation and leading it and making sure you're framing what the conversation is going to be had in that room?
Is it the emotional responsiveness of being able to act on your feet and being able to pivot when needed and be creative?
Like for you all.
It's thinking about which part of this whole process is personally meaningful to you.
What brings you life in that process?
And research actually shows you only need about 20 of your time doing that part that feels personally meaningful.
So when people feel like 20 yeah, and it's not a big number, but at least you know if you have five meetings in a day, in one of those meetings it feels really personally meaningful to you.
Or 20 of the time on a case or whatever it is, it's spent doing that thing.
That really lights you up, that can sustain the energy to keep going forward.
And then I just say on the other side that contributing to the world beyond the self it's really thinking about.
What positive impact is your work going to have on your organization, on your client, on your family, on the world?
Like, can you get to a place where you understand how, being really, really good at your job or even in that negotiation, can you get to a place where subjectively, you feel like that is contributing in a meaningful way to someone or something that you care about?
And so the thing about purpose is that it's subjective.
Like, if you think this is really important and this will make the world better, you can tap into the power of purpose, no matter what anyone else thinks.
But you have to get beyond just winning for yourself because that's all about you.
So it's how is winning going to contribute to someone else?
So one of the things that people often ask me is, how do we know whether or not we got a good deal?
And so we can give people the classic, the old school traditional negotiation answer.
Well, you know, it's a good deal if it's better than your BATNA, better than your best alternative to a negotiated agreement.
We also know if it's a good deal, if it suits you and your party very well and it suits the other side acceptably well.
And it also is good if it is going to be long lasting, so you're not, you know, undermining the interest of the other side or your own interests, or something like that.
Very nice.
Okay.
But now let's get a little bit real here, because when we include that element of purpose, we realize that we could make deals that meet all of those criteria that I just described, but still facilitate feel really bad.
So what's a good deal or a bad deal?
I Kwame Christian, am in no position to tell you Bell, or you Tim, what is a good deal for you, because I don't know what your purpose is.
Only you can know that.
But the only way you can know that is if you take the time to negotiate with yourself to figure that out.
And so I think understanding your purpose is the key to authentic negotiation, but it's the thing that a lot of people are missing.
So you can have all the skills in the world, but your skills might be misdirected if you don't have an idea of what your purpose is.
Well, and that's the huge challenge that you just named, it it's you have to know what's personally meaningful to you.
You have to know the contribution you want to make.
You have to know these elements of yourself to do that.
Internal negotiation.
And so our entire book is about giving people this shared language, this common language that they can use to start articulating these elements of purpose, because purpose feels very, very abstract, it feels very, very out of reach, and so That's what we've been doing.
It's just providing a common language.
And I would just say in the negotiation space, and I'm curious how you would riff on this, Bell.
But so two of our core elements of purpose is one is it's making decisions that align with your core values.
To know if you've got a good deal, you have to know what you value.
And that's where we go with the science of core values.
And you have to make sure that your needs are getting met.
And so you have to know what needs that you have and how this negotiation meets it.
And so, Bell, I wonder if you want to riff on either one of those.
Yeah, just to be complete, we have these four elements of purpose.
Tim named two of them.
Your core values, the ones that you're willing to sacrifice for.
These are the values that you stand by.
The other is needs, which are the needs in the world, both in the needs that you want to meet in yourself, but the needs that you are compelled to meet in the world around you.
And the other two are your strengths.
Do you know what your character strengths are that make you your best self?
And then finally, do you know what skills you are motivated to learn and master?
So, when we're thinking about negotiating for your next step in your career trajectory, do you know what your elements of purpose are?
Is this a role that you're negotiating for?
That you can be your best self?
That you can learn the skills that you are motivated to learn and master?
That you can be living the values that you would sacrifice for?
And are you meeting the needs that you want to be meeting?
So when you're You're negotiating for a job, for your career, for your next step in your trajectory.
You've got to ask yourself do you know, if this is the direction that will enable you to be your best self, to learn the skills that you're motivated to master, to live out the values that you stand for and that you are willing to sacrifice for, and to meet needs in yourself as well as in the world around you that you feel compelled to meet?
Those are the elements of purpose.
And when you know those elements of purpose clearly, then your negotiation becomes a lot more clear.
You're not just negotiating for the title or the salary.
You're negotiating for a role that is highly aligned with your own purpose.
And you've done that negotiation with yourself.
One of the things that I'm realizing here with this is that This makes the negotiation process more complex.
And I don't say complex as a bad thing.
I say it just as a realization that if you want to negotiate well, you're going to have to put in some work.
Because when you think about the example of a good deal that I gave you just the textbook, answer is like oh, I can, on paper, objectively determine whether or not this is a good deal.
And I could show it to my friends and they could say, yeah, mathematically, that was a good deal.
But when we introduce these elements that they're very personal.
So your core values, making sure your needs are met, considering your strengths and then also the skills that you're motivated to learn and master.
I love that we added the skills that you're motivated to learn and master, because a lot of us out here who are really good at things we might not like it forces us to really think about what authenticity really means to us and what it means to be an authentic negotiator.
Now it also presents another problem too, because part of this complexity has to factor in perspectives of other people.
So, for example, let's say i'm a hard-charging business person, i want to make a lot of money on my deals, and that is how i have always ranked my success the the quantity of the deals.
How many deals do i have under my belt, those type of things?
But now i start to consider some other things and i realize, you know what, if i want to get more value out of this deal, for example, it might take two extra weeks, And that is time that I was planning on spending with my family.
So I, as my core value, I kind of have to let go a little bit of value in this deal in order to spend more time with my family, for example.
And so what might end up happening and I'd love to hear your perspective on this is, as we start to be more authentic with our negotiations, we might start to get ridicule from the people who were previously in our social circle.
Because, especially when we think about the performance metric, we are comparing ourselves to other people.
We might not be able to perfectly compare ourselves anymore.
So there's a lot of resilience that needs to come from within yourself to really stay true to yourself.
So can you speak to that unbelievably insightful point that you just made?
And uh, I think you're talking about core values here, and I want to talk about core values for a second here, because we fundamentally misunderstand what core values are.
Every single organization will say what they value.
They'll put their core values on their website.
All of that.
But what a core value actually is, is something that you are willing to sacrifice for.
Like you, are willing to give up something meaningful in the name of that core value, because something is only valuable if it is scarce, you know.
And so for that person, you just had a great point.
Do I take two weeks to make an additional 10, 20, $30,000 on this deal?
Or do I go and spend that time with my family?
Well, you're showing your core values there, right?
If you're continuously putting career before your family, no value judgments here.
Don't say that's a core value of yours.
You're not willing to make sacrifices.
And we see this in organizations all the time.
They put out all these pressers about what they stand for and what's important for them.
And then you don't ever see them making any sort of demonstrative sacrifice or investment in that.
And it's not really a core value.
It's window dressing.
So that's me on my little soapbox there.
But to get more practical about how you can actually use values, is that in the world of core values there's actually only four different types of values.
And there's research that shows there's two different spectrums.
So you can figure out what your core values are based on this simple question.
It's, do you believe...
When I win, we win meaning the better I perform, the better my organization or family or community will do.
Therefore, I'm putting my individual performance first.
Or do you believe when we win, I win meaning the better my organization or community does, the better I'm going to do so?
I'm going to put their needs first.
And that is a long way of saying, are you more individualistic or are you more collectivist?
And every single person, society, culture is somewhere on that spectrum.
And so the more individualistic you are, the less collectivist you are going to be.
And so I can go into the other one.
I see the wheels turning here.
I'll just flow out the whole framework for you here, and then you can go from there.
So that's picture that on one spectrum and then on another spectrum is do you believe that change is an opportunity to make things better or do you believe that change on the whole is a threat to make things worse?
So what is your relationship with change?
Every single person organization, is somewhere on that spectrum as well.
Those two questions determine what you value.
Yeah, we can go into that a little bit more, but it's like it's really understanding what you actually value on those two spectrums is going to figure out what you value in your work.
It's going to help you figure out what your client values, what's most important to them.
Yeah.
And it's just another decision making point.
So can I say a little bit more about it?
Because this is this is getting into one of our chapters where we talk about value archetypes.
So what Tim is talking about is there are two continua of values.
One is individualism to collectivism.
That's that question.
When I win, we win.
Is it better?
Are you more of a when I win, we win person?
Or are you more of a when we win, I win person?
Or are you a more of a and on the other spectrum, which is growth to stability?
Are you more of a person who values change or feels threatened by change?
And so, based on your answers to questions in those ballparks, you will fall into one of four quadrants.
If you're a person who values growth over stability and you value individualism over collectivism, we would call you a trailblazer.
You're somebody who's about pushing the envelope outside of institutions or systems.
Sometimes you're willing to sacrifice a lot of things in order to do that.
If you're the opposite, and you're a person who values stability over growth and values collectivism over individualism, we would call you a guardian.
So you're somebody who protects what's tried and true in an organization.
You value tradition.
You value the way that things have been done even more than sometimes change and growth.
And the other two quadrants are high growth and high collectivism.
And that person we call a builder.
You're somebody who is about pushing the envelope, but within organization.
So you are about change and about moving things to become more progressive, but in order to invite more people in the community into the organization so that others can fit in.
The opposite of that is high individualism, high stability.
We call you a champion.
You know how to work the system.
You do that in an individualistic way, and it ultimately can help the organization as well.
So our point of examining these four sort of exemplars or archetypes of values is that every organization needs all of these values.
And when we understand what category we are most aligned with, it can be a decision-making kind of tool for us.
We can recognize sometimes also why we might not feel like we're fitting or being valued in an organization or a department.
Maybe you're a trailblazer working with guardians.
And it's creating a lot of conflict in the work setting.
And understanding that these are just different values that you're leading with can shift you from a space of conflict to one of compassion and one of being able to value what the others around the table, who might have different values, what they can bring to the table as well.
This is eye-opening for a number of reasons.
First, in all of my years of academia, reading, writing, and everything.
I've never heard the plural of continuum.
So I appreciate that bell, continua.
This was exceptional.
This is great.
The second thing is, I think that this is going to be really thought provoking for a lot of people.
Because Tim, like you saw my body language, I slouched down and my brow was furrowed.
I'm on my third page of notes here.
And I'm thinking that there might be a I'll call this a positive identity crisis in a few people as they go through this.
Let me speak for myself here.
When I think about the individualistic versus the collectivist approach.
Do you believe that if I win, we win, versus?
Do you believe when we win, I win?
That was so eyeopening because I think what I experienced as I went through this and I'm going to spend some time thinking about it
The first one seemed obvious.
If I win, we win. that seemed logically, mentally, it resonated with me.
But then when I heard the second one, when we win, I win, that resonated more with my heart.
I felt more of a connection with that.
And recently I've been thinking like who am i really?
What am i really?
What do i really value?
Because i, in order to get to where i, where i am now, i felt, at least like i needed to rack up a lot of accomplishments, awards and those type of things.
It felt more of necessity than anything else.
It wasn't out of like enjoyment, necessarily.
It felt like oxygen and each win was just holding me off until the next one.
I felt like I needed to do it.
But when I think about the things that are really moving to me, it's the impact that we have as a company, where we collectively work together and help people.
It's not even the revenue generation aspect.
I mean, the revenue generation helps us to do things like this, be super generous with the podcast.
That's what I really like doing.
And so what I'm realizing is that the belief or what I lead with can change the way that I negotiate.
So if I'm negotiating these types of network deals, if I'm negotiating partnerships and things like that, I might say Kwame, the CEO and businessman, your job is to maximize profit and revenue.
But then Kwame, the human, what does he really want?
That'll change the way that I navigate these negotiations.
And again, that takes a lot of resilience to be willing to be authentic with yourself in that way and accept who you really are.
And walk in that, but also stick to it when you get criticism and ridicule from other people who have opinions about the way you should be living your life.
Oh, just you're saying something that's so important, which is that we have different parts of ourselves.
We have the part of ourselves that we are kind of living by in the present moment.
And then the part of ourselves that we envision for the future.
So we ask questions as part of helping people negotiate with themselves and identify their purpose.
We ask people questions like, how do you want to be remembered?
So when you ask yourself, how do you want to be remembered?
The answer to your questions, the questions about what your core values are, might shift from the way you're operating today.
And this is not a judgment, but it's helpful to know that, and Tim can talk more about this that the research shows that when our future-oriented self is highly aligned with our present-oriented self, that we have higher levels of mental health, that we ultimately may even perform better in our work when we are highly aligned with that future aspirational self that we want to be.
Yep.
And I would just say I would challenge you a little bit Kwame, do those have to be different things?
Are they diametrically opposed?
And maybe they are, maybe they're not, I don't know.
But I think the question people should ask is how can I add value in a way that aligns with what I value?
And if people here are struggling, your body will tell you.
So our core values are an invisible operating system that tells us how to negotiate micro decisions at a subconscious level all the time.
And so if there's something that you are struggling with or something that's not sitting right with you, it can be a signal that it might be conflicting with your core values.
Typically, we're only aware of our core values when they've been violated.
And so that can be an opportunity for people.
But to go into the science a little bit of what this does, if you can, just so.
If you ask yourself the question how do I want to be remembered as a person?
What do I want to stand for?
And, if you can answer the question, what do I want to stand for as a person and professional?
You're going to get to some of those core values.
And the research shows that when we activate our core values, when we think about them, our brain has a risk part of our brain and a reward part of our brain.
And there's research that shows, in highly stressful moments, when we have been primed to think about our values, our ventral striatum, which is the part of the brain associated with reward activates, and our anterior insula, which is the part that's really looking for risk, is not activated.
And so they've actually done research showing that when you get people to look at their values, they have less cortisol in their system, they perceive it as less stressful and it increases their performance actually.
It has this neurobiological and physiological impact on our bodies when we live aligned with our core values.
So it's not just some woo-woo stuff we're talking about here, because what you were talking about a little bit was fear, right?
If I stand in line with my core values, am I going to be sacrificing financial security for my family right?
Can those two things coexist?
And the more we tap into our core values.
It gives us the strength to deal with those fears that we might be feeling.
So essentially, what we're saying is if we are in line with our core values, if we first negotiate with ourselves to figure out what they are, it will enhance our skills.
One of our skills is negotiation.
So we'll become better negotiators, because there's not something implicitly like subconsciously holding us back.
And I think one of the things that's really interesting fact that our emotions are signals.
And a lot of times we think about our emotions as inconveniences.
So if we're feeling something, it should trigger some curiosity.
What is it that is leading me to feel the way that I'm feeling?
And a lot of times we might just say, oh, I'm stressed out.
I probably should, maybe I should meditate.
Maybe I should get a prescription or whatever it happens to be.
But we rarely stop and think.
Well, you know, maybe I'm not on the right path and maybe what I'm doing right now is causing stress and anxiety, because I'm going deeper and deeper in a direction that is not in aligned with my core values.
And my focus has been on alleviating the emotional burden instead of actually figuring out what works for me and navigating my life in that direction.
I think this is really, really insightful.
And we can add to that that you emotionally signal to the person you're negotiating with all about how committed you are to what you're negotiating for.
When we are negotiating for something that isn't sitting right with us, you can believe that it's like sharks smell blood in the water.
They can sniff it out when you're trying to negotiate for something that is not true to who you are and what you're committed to.
When we have clarity around our purpose and we can tell that story clearly to the person we're negotiating with.
How much more power do we have in that negotiation?
Oh, this is good because I was thinking also when we think about body language and reading body language microaggressions, not microaggressions, micro expressions and things like that.
As humans, we're not good at understanding exactly what somebody is feeling, but we are good at knowing when somebody is feeling something.
And so as we're negotiating, we're going to be giving off these signals.
So emotional leakage, as much as you try to hold it in, it will come out in some way.
So we might be feeling something internally but we're trying to hold it back, sometimes from ourselves, but definitely in these difficult conversations with other people.
But you're right Bell, when you think about, when you're talking to somebody who is either a really good negotiator or an empath, somebody who cares about you.
They understand you're feeling something.
They're going to sense something, but they won't know what it is.
Is it deception?
Are they hiding something?
Do they not like me?
Usually when, in ambiguous situations, especially in situations of high stress, we're going to interpret the stimuli that we're receiving negatively.
There's something under here.
And so it shows that if we're not authentic in our form of negotiation and we're not in alignment with our core values, it will diminish our performance, because we're sending signals that we might not even be aware of to the other side.
And then they play off those signals.
And that has an impact on the entire interaction.
And what those signals do, they trigger what's called the default state network in our body.
It makes us feel disconnected from the other person.
And when we go into a default state, you know what we look for?
Threat.
We look for scarcity and we look for individualism and it's every person for themselves.
And so you actually.
If you cannot have an emotional connection with that person across from you, they're not going to trust you.
They're going to be more self-serving.
They're It creates shared positivity resonance.
When we have a shared positive emotion with someone else, we can tell that we have this connection with them.
And that creates more pride, more courage, more creativity.
It makes us more pro-social.
When we feel more connected to other people, it makes us take them into consideration when we're negotiating here.
So ironically, the more you can connect with others, understand their perspective from a genuinely good place, they're going to act in a way where they're considering your best interests and you're going to do the same.
And I think that's how mutually beneficial outcomes can happen.
I love this because essentially, what we're saying is that if we take the time to engage this internal negotiation, we figure out what our purpose is, we understand what our core values are.
And then that helps us to improve our ability to connect with other people, to negotiate effectively and to direct our skills.
So we're negotiating for what we actually want.
And at the same time, people can sense this.
Right.
So it creates more of that shared positivity resonance.
And then it actually has an impact on the way that people interact with us.
So through this process, we're not only elevating our own performance in the negotiation, we're also elevating others and elevating the shared interaction as well.
That's exactly right.
And there's another element to how we elevate our own performance and their performance.
And that is that we become less cognitively rigid when we know what our purpose is.
It's no longer just about one number or one particular outcome.
We can see lots of ways where our purpose might be served here and that the purpose of the organization might be served.
So If they're giving me a different title than I came in asking for, if I can see how that different title is aligned with that purpose, then I'm going to be a lot more open to it.
I'm going to be a lot more open to a different set of tasks that I'm going to be asked to do than the ones that I might have come in thinking, because I have a bigger purpose in mind than just those specific tasks.
This is great, because one of the things that we always say almost as a throwaway line in negotiation it's one of those trite things that everybody says oh, you need to be creative.
Expand the proverbial pie, create value, think outside the box.
Okay, we've said all of these things.
But we really often fail to appreciate the mental state that both parties need to be in in order to be creative and be receptive to creativity.
And so if we're always negotiating in this classical kind of rigid type of sense, then everybody is focusing on the threats.
They're not going to be willing to even consider these creative options because mentally they're not in the right mindset.
And so again, what we're realizing is that this supercharges another important element of negotiation the creative element.
Because again, like we said at the very beginning, I've taken so many pages of notes it's hard to find.
But, if I recall correctly, when we think about life through the performance mindset, we are comparing ourselves, people and society.
And it gives us a very narrow set of metrics upon which to compare ourselves.
And so that rigidity limits our ability to be successful.
But the more paths to victory we have, the more likely we are to achieve a victory.
And if we open ourselves up and we understand our purpose, we can realize that there are a multitude of ways for us to achieve our goals.
It doesn't just need to be on these very narrow set of metrics.
And just to tie in the emotional piece about this, because I know some people are listening here and they're like that's all said and good, but like Feeling good won't help me pay the bills.
Research shows that when we have fear, we have these things in our eyes called visuospatial inhibitors.
They are tunnel vision is created when we feel fear.
The more fearful or scared that we feel.
Literally, we see less and less in the world and we become hyper-focused on what's right in front of us.
And so that means you only have one outcome that you're looking at.
When we feel joy, what happens?
It takes down those visual spatial inhibitors.
When we are feeling moments of joy and creativity and connectedness, we physiologically see more of the world, and when we see more of the world, we can come to more creative solutions here.
So again, this is not just two therapists who love emotions saying that you should be doing this here.
There are some very complex things happening in the body that makes sense here.
So I think what we're trying to do in our work, in our book, is show people that the right thing to do to live by our values, to genuinely try to help other people if you can commit to that, the right thing to do is also the smart thing to do.
It's actually going to make you more successful.
It's going to make you more fulfilled in your career.
But we live in a world of such scarcity right now.
It feels so scared to do that.
It feels like if you are not the top 1 in your field, that you're not going to make it.
It can be so hard to break away from that fear to do it.
And so we just have tons of compassion for people who might be grappling with that right now.
This is exceptional.
I appreciate this.
I know there's the curious Kwame who's like, keep asking more questions.
This is for you now, okay?
But there's also the podcast mind who's like.
Okay, we have to have some level of uniformity in the length of these episodes.
So this has been really great.
But let's just say this remind the listeners about the book and let them know how they can get in touch with you, how to connect, but also just give them one little piece of advice before you go.
So our book again is called How to Navigate Life The New Science of Finding Your Way in School, Career and Beyond.
And you can find it wherever books are sold.
We're so glad to be able to share some of the high points of our book today, but there's a lot more in there very practical tips and strategies for negotiating with yourself and identifying and discovering your purpose.
In terms of like one sort of take home.
I would say that the delightful thing about purpose is that you already have everything you need within you.
This is not something that you have to go out of yourself and, you know, just strive and strive and strive to find.
It's really about a shift in focus and being able to let go of some of the distractions that have covered over what your purpose is.
So this is more of a process of chipping away at the excess stone than it is going and getting something that is not attainable.
I would just say people, if they want to start with it right now, take out a pen and paper, put four minutes and 30 seconds on the timer on your phone and just ask yourself the question how do you want to be remembered?
And if you can just go on that and just don't stop writing until you hear that timer beep, It's going to make purpose feel so much more attainable, so much more realistic, because you're writing a blueprint for the person you want to be remembered for.
And that's what purpose is.
And so it's just creating the space to do it.
And I really appreciate you creating a space with us today here Kwame, because this was really really fun.
Appreciate both of you coming on.
This was exceptional.
And I love being able to have an opportunity to share the value of the internal negotiation.
It's so important, but so overlooked.
So thank you both for coming on the show today.
Really appreciate it.
Thank you so much.
This is wonderful.
Thanks, Kwame.
Last question for you.
Last question.
And this can be short because I know you probably need to go.
But you said that you are working on this in your own life.
You feeling like you're living in a sweet spot of your purpose, or are you still?
Are you feeling a little like an itch for for some new direction or growth?
Great question.
Yeah, I think with me, I'm getting closer to it.
It was after I got my second alumni award.
And so I had my alumni award for young alumni of the year for the John Glenn College of Public Affairs.
So I have a master of public policy.
And then the next year I got the young alumni award for the law school at Ohio State Moritz College of Law.
And I was like, oh, my gosh, why is this?
This is great.
It was like a moment.
It was a moment of like, you know, exuberance and jubilation and everything like a drug high.
And then it just it went down because, like that, those moments of elation were immediately followed by anxiety.
Like I was becoming more stressed out and more anxious with every accomplishment that I earned.
And it was like the more successful I became, the worse my mental health like, and it was a very scary type of thing because I wasn't like a nervous or stressed out person before.
And it's like, wow, now at the height of my career, what is this?
And I think it was a lot of it was.
I was always looking at myself as the scrappy underdog young guy doing his career a different type of way, et cetera, et cetera.
And I'm like, I'm going to prove people wrong.
And then I start winning these awards.
I'm like, oh my gosh, who am I now?
Because I was trying to prove everybody wrong.
And now they're like, hey, Kwame, you win.
We see you as a winner.
I'm like, oh my gosh.
It's guess it wasn't for them.
The person I still haven't proven myself to is myself.
What is missing?
You know.
So now I'm a little bit more comfortable realizing that.
I think there was a bit of that immigrant work ethic in me being a first generation American pushing really, really hard.
And then also I felt like there was a little bit of insecurity, as it related to not feeling like I was enough.
And I thought those degrees and all of those awards would help.
And then when I realized that it wasn't, that was really, really scary.
But now I realize that I'm just I'm cool with being chill, Kwame, a bit more relaxed.
And my main focus is just making sure that we can be as generous as possible and help other people, regardless of the numbers and the finance.
Can you just say that one more time?
Just say the last thing you said again, because that was like that was the thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it was just being as generous as possible, regardless of the consequences.
And I think that's good as a person.
And it creates challenges as a CEO, because I'm thinking about what's required to be a good CEO and really, really good at business.
And I can learn it.
I can do it.
I've done it.
But the business side of things.
It doesn't bring me joy like the podcast does, like speaking, does that helping people does.
And so now it's thinking about what's the next chapter like, coming to terms with the fact that I don't think I'm the leader that takes AI to the next level.
Yeah, trying to figure out what that path is.
I'm always going to be associated with it.
It's my company.
I built it, right?
But just recognizing that, as far as like the business side, that is not in line with my core values or my purpose.
There's so much truth in what you said.
And part of the unspoken piece is the courage that it takes to pursue purpose.
Because you're talking about potentially leaving something, closing the door to something that has enormous meaning to you but it's not your best meaning.
It's not your highest purpose.
And so it's going to require loss and sacrifice to follow your purpose.
Sounds like to me you're shifting from a founder led organization to a mission driven organization where you know it's like you're stepping into a different role.
What does that look like for you?
Suddenly the future, it's harder to picture.
It's harder to envision.
And like, you know, uncertainty leads to doubt.
You know, our program at Boston College is called True North.
And we kind of see whatever you're doing, like whatever the next thing Kwame does is you ask yourself am I using the strengths that make me my best self?
Is there opportunity to grow the skills I really care about?
Can I make a positive impact on people?
And can I do it in a way that allows my core values?
You know, is it, is it hitting that constellation of a purpose?
You're headed in the and I'm talking to myself as much, I'm talking to you because I want to still learn but, like you're, you're headed in the right direction.
Even if you don't know exactly where you're going, you know cause.
It's just like, and that's what, that's what the North star does.
Right.
It's like I don't know where this is going, but I know I'm heading in the right direction and I have faith and confidence that I'm doing the right thing for the right reason.
And that's the only way we can go.
And there is peace in that.
Yeah.
And you're going to be wildly successful.
And it's going to be fun.
It's going to be an adventure versus the linear path.
