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My dad was big and scary.
My best, I've had a series, all my best friends have died since I was 14.
I've had some heavy stuff, but I think a part of it is being able to be a comedian and I think having that cathartic experience makes me feel less alone.
It was definitely, even though, if I'm not speaking about something specifically, I'm still getting it out.
I just saw that things were funny very early and the more I got, the more I observed and the more I went through life I just realized that it's all pretty hilarious.
And even the things that were really painful, those too can go through that lens and I just I it just formed as a way of living.
It just seemed like I'm not going to let the heaviness of all of this drag me down.
I'm going to enjoy this as much as possible, and I was also had just a sensitivity that an artist has, where you're kind of You see it all from people who went through horrible, horrible things, right.
And it was just put into our heads over and over again. yes, but move forward.
Yes, this is tragic, but go.
We just had all this perspective of whatever suffering was, but your grandmother would say yeah, but okay, now come sit down and let's sit and talk, and I'm so lucky to have you here.
When that's put into your head over and over again, this is a blessing.
Keep going, be positive, just enjoy your life.
Yes, there's tragedy, but just keep going.
Then when things popped up, you were kind of, that was your toolbox.
When someone dies and it takes you out.
You know it's not like zippity-doo-dah and I'm, it's just, but you'll get back to it.
Or at least you know that that's where you should be headed.
It's easy to be hopeful when things are nice, when things are dark.
That's when it's most valuable and most difficult.
Hi, I'm Mayim Bialik.
And I'm Jonathan Cohen.
Welcome to our breakdown, the place where we break things down so you don't have to.
This is one you would want to break down if you're good, though.
But you do it very slowly.
Today we're going to be talking with standup comedian and actor and actor and podcast host and author, Tom Papa.
If you don't know Tom, you should.
You absolutely should.
His last Netflix special came out in 2022.
What a day.
Very, very funny.
We rewatched it last night and laughed really hard.
He's also the author of We're All In This Together, So Make Some Room, his third book.
Author of You're Doing Great.
And Tom's going to talk about what it means to do great.
To have hope.
To have hope.
Why he likes baking bread.
We start off with a lot of bread content.
A lot of bread content.
You know, it gets much deeper from there, but I got hungry.
And if you're hungry for hope and to hear from possibly the most positive optimistic legit, pleasant comedian that we've ever spoken to, I think you're really going to like this episode.
It was really so much fun to talk to him.
Let's welcome to The Breakdown, Tom Papa.
Break it down.
Tom, welcome to The Breakdown.
It's so nice to be here.
You brought something which was very nice.
You brought something that I was going to ask you about.
Oh, yeah.
Well, I know that you've baked challah.
Yeah.
You're Italian, correct?
I'm Italian.
But you like bread in particular.
I like bread in particular.
And I grew up among Jewish people.
And so I feel like but it's so funny because I didn't start baking bread until like eight years ago.
So I'm like, oh, but challah.
And then, but I really have no, like if you tell me make a sauce.
Okay.
A bolognese sauce.
Right.
I have reference.
I have grandmothers whispering in my ear.
Once in a while I run across challah, you know, but I don't have like it, ingrained in me of what it's good and what's not.
So I started on my challah journey and I and I post it and I give it to people on the sly and then they give me a little like it's good for you.
It's good.
The only one who gave me some props was Judy Gold.
It was like, it looks better than mine.
You know, she just gets mad.
Yeah, yeah.
What are you, can I ask a few questions about your challah?
Please.
I feel like we should.
Are you using high gluten flour or regular flour?
Regular flour.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Is it getting fluffy?
That's, no.
Yeah.
It's not getting as fluffy as I'd like.
What are you baking it in?
Just free form?
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Just on a baking sheet.
Yeah.
Okay.
And I do two at a time.
Okay.
That's very Jewish of you.
Here is my suspicion.
There's a lot of varying from my friends who sent me their grandmothers, and what I'm reading and stuff.
The amount of eggs varies greatly.
Interesting.
Well, I'm a vegan, so I have to make what we call water challah.
Right.
But give me the range of eggs that we're talking.
Five to one.
Five all the way down to one.
I would say five.
If you're going to have an egg in your challah, the more the better.
Yeah, which is what I was doing, but it's coming out a little dense.
I don't know.
I'll figure it out.
No, no, I'm not done asking questions.
It's humbling.
How many cups would you say of flour are you using?
Are these like big challah or small challah?
Uh, they're medium challah.
Okay.
I would say it's five cups of flour.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
Cause.
Sometimes you can break it up and do smaller ones to see if the density is also because it's just not cooking all the way through.
Right.
That's another thing.
Yeah.
And the, the thing with flour really is you should go by weight.
And no grandmother's recipe goes by weight.
No.
No.
It all goes by, you know.
Yeah.
Like my mother gave me all of her recipes and I passed them on to friends.
And they're like, there's no amounts.
Right.
Yeah.
Just a little this, a little that and throw some tomatoes.
Here's another question.
Do you need by hand?
I do, but no, the challah I don't actually.
Interesting.
But you need other dough by hand?
All my other bread is by hand.
Why not the challah?
We're not good enough for your hand.
I'm bound by whatever the recipes are telling me.
And you think Bubby had a mixer for her?
Good point.
Good point.
Interesting.
Yeah.
I think you're a racist when it comes to challah.
Come on.
To have little Tommy Italian from New Jersey spending this much time on challah.
They've looked really good.
There's been.
Oh.
Oh, there's been some.
You do a triple braid?
That look good.
No.
Well.
Like three things.
And you braid them.
It's five or six.
What?
Oh, that's.
Two on the outside.
Bring it in the middle.
Take the one in the middle.
Go to the thing.
Get on the long one.
Yeah.
Oh, that's very.
Yeah.
That's really nice.
It's really.
Yeah.
And it's it's kind of like, all right, just don't need it.
I would love to share with you my most reliable challah recipe.
I would love it.
Thank you.
The New York Times published it.
I believe it's called the 1978 challah because it was from someone's recipe that was like from 1978.
Nice.
It's very good.
I veganize it.
You don't have to, but it is the most reliable, like traditional challah that I have.
Can you use a mix?
Please.
I do not use a mixer.
It's sacrilegious to me.
We found the problem.
No, you gotta know the dough.
I know.
Well, that's really, yeah, exactly.
You know literally by touching it, feeling it, smelling it, holding it.
Yeah, it tells you everything.
But it really is about It is a yeast issue.
I recently made challah, and the yeast, it looked like it bubbled, but it would not rise.
I did this thing with Adina Sussman, who's a very well-known chef and baker who lives in Israel now, and she suggested that I take that unrisen challah and make pletzlach.
You may not know what pletzlach is.
I don't.
But you are from a part of the country where you probably know it.
We call it onion board.
Like East Coasters call it onion board.
It's basically like a flat challah almost.
And it has like, you basically caramelize onions and it's got a ton of poppy seeds.
Anyway, if dough ever doesn't rise, do not throw it out.
No, you can turn it into.
You basically roll it out and you lay the onions.
You saute the onions and you lay it and it's really anyway.
So it's called platzlach, but in New York it's just called an onion board.
Anyway!
The good save for the challah is French toast.
Always.
Next day.
And again, egg.
More egg.
We have like 12 dozen eggs in this experience.
Judaism is the cuisine of potatoes, onions, and eggs.
That's it.
Just, yeah.
Yeah.
What did you bring, Tom?
So I made you, this is my sourdough.
It's a country loaf.
It's a little happy face.
It's a little happy face.
I wanted to make you happy.
What?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, by looks alone, that is gorgeous.
Yeah.
I bake a lot of this.
Is this your like... This is gorgeous.
Is this the famous loaf?
Like if you had a one prize loaf of bread, would this be it?
Yeah, this would be it.
Why is it so pretty?
What happens on top?
Steam in a Dutch oven.
Oh, really?
I spritz it with some water and close the lid.
And this shape is because it... That's a scoring.
You take a... Let's see the top.
You take a razor and slice it any way that you want.
I just do one thing.
Is the word B-O-U-L-E a thing?
A boule, yes.
Is that what this is?
Yes.
I didn't even know I knew that French word.
This is beautiful.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
And sourdough is something I can eat.
Yeah, flour, water, salt, and yeast.
That's it.
Amazing.
Yeah.
Well, my kids are going to want me to turn that into garlic bread.
Is that allowed?
Yeah.
Oh.
That's a no.
He just said yes, but he meant no.
I mean, you can.
They happen to like garlic bread on sourdough.
Interesting.
What should I do with it?
Well, you could do anything with it for real.
I could put vegan butter on it.
You could put vegan butter on it.
You could avocado.
Avocado and olive oil is beautiful.
Just toast it in the morning.
Just so simple.
Just having that with coffee.
It sounds so sensual the way you said it.
It really is.
It's such a simple, like, why would you start your day any other way?
I just find it, growing up Italian-
Garlic bread to me is more baguette.
It's more, you know, it's a little more pure white bread.
And the way I grew up, you need a challah by hand.
So look at us.
Right, exactly.
We're all making our way.
What I like to do with that, though, is...
Take it for the garlic.
Yeah, yeah.
You slice it.
Okay.
Put it in a little olive oil in a cast iron pan.
Oh.
And grill it.
Oh, that's nice.
On both sides.
And then take a garlic clove, massage it into the bread.
And then you can also, if you like tomato, you can do the same thing.
Rub tomato on it as well.
I was also going to say, this is like a classic grilled cheese bread too.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
Really good for that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm very excited.
Thank you.
You're very welcome.
This conversation might launch us into a whole cooking podcast that will spin off of this.
I could talk about bread literally for days.
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Are your grandparents italian?
Yes, where are they from?
Uh sicily okay, papa comes from sicily.
Oh, and then we had others that were in uh cinque terra and naples.
Wow yeah, so you grew up.
Obviously, food was a thing, a big thing.
A big thing.
It's how you communicate love or any other emotion.
100 it all goes into that.
Were both of your parents Italian then.
Yes.
Wow.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
And you're the oldest of three?
And I'm the oldest of three.
Okay, got it.
Yeah.
Those are the basics.
Right.
And are you from Jersey?
I'm from New Jersey.
Okay.
Grew up in North Jersey, a little outside of New York.
Okay.
Yeah.
That's where Jersey is.
Yeah, I know.
But I'm really, I just, I want to say New York.
I know.
You know, Jeff Ross, Jeff Ross has that great joke.
Where are you from?
New York.
What part?
New Jersey.
That's right.
My parents are from Bronx Park South, born during World War II.
So they had no patience for anyone who was not from New York.
So I was raised like, they're like, if anyone says they're from New York, they're probably from Jersey or Connecticut.
And sure enough, my parents were right.
Most everyone.
We are both big fans of yours.
And in particular well, first of all, your book.
We're all in this together, so make some room, which is very, very funny.
And some of it I've heard bits of, and in particular in your last special.
So there's a couple kind of crossover bits, which are much more elaborated in the book.
You know the thing about your comedy that really appeals to me and, I think, a lot of the people who have been watching you and enjoying you for decades.
You know there's an aspect of things that you observe that many of us have observed and haven't quite put our finger or our words on.
And this notion of sleeping together was really one of them where it just felt like you really kind of encompassed so many aspects of what it is to relate with another human.
And you've been married for a minute, So I would imagine a lot of your content you know can and does come from from your family.
But in terms of sleeping together, I'm curious about how that sort of notion.
Does that something that grows over decades?
Is it something that you just crystallize and you're like, this is the bit?
Yeah, I think it I think I think they all come from mild disturbances in your life.
You know, the things like. you find like, why are we living this way?
Or why is this aggravating me?
That kind of thing.
And, as I say in the bit, like my wife is hanging on to the young version of us when we should be in bed together.
And I didn't never thought of it.
We've been married 23 years.
I've never thought of like, maybe one of us should go to another room ever.
But now in the last, I don't know, five, six years, it's getting rough.
It's getting really rough.
Um, Because we both have issues.
It has nothing to do with love.
It has nothing to do with intimacy.
It just has the chances of when I'm on the road.
The chances of getting a good night's sleep are slim.
Right.
By myself in a hotel.
And now put another struggling person over 40 next to me.
Now, what are your odds?
I think that is what you said.
You're like, we're both over 40.
That was your description of what's going on.
And you have different issues, correct?
Yeah, we do.
I don't do anything.
I just sleep like an angel, like a little angel on a cotton ball.
And my wife snores, gets up tosses turns, looks at her phone, talks about death and global problems as soon as the light goes out.
And she actually in all fairness, as I was doing that bit and putting it together for this special, she's like what about talking about what you do?
And I was like, it doesn't really fit the rhythm of the joke.
It seems like it's pretty sewn up.
And she's like, what about what you do?
And she said it for months.
And I never acquiesced.
I just, I kept it the way it is.
But I don't know what I do.
Yes, yes.
What does she say you do?
She's a comedian, too.
I could pay money to watch her talk about you.
Absolutely.
I snore once in a while.
You ever have a little cat purr next to you?
It's kind of like that, which some people find annoying.
Some people aren't good with that.
Sometimes maybe snoring.
Sometimes.
Sometimes a little snorey snore.
If I such an old person thing, but if i have a water later than nine, i'm gonna get up a bunch during the night to pee and in the bed i put it on her, i make her go.
That's what you said.
You're like someone had what was it?
Someone had sugar before something like before 2 pm or something.
Yeah uh, so.
So we both have a lot going on.
And now we're suffering together.
So something has united us now in that we're on a horrible mattress.
We're on a terrible mattress.
And we're literally we're trying to find time today after this.
Oh, and when she's done teaching to go and find a mattress store like we're we're desperate.
We're on this hard.
It's harder than this table.
I lie down on it and my arms fall asleep.
How long have you been living like this?
This is it.
It's been pretty gradual.
It was kind of a new mattress and it just got really bad in like the last several months.
So someone's leave like in that bit, I say someone's leaving.
That's right.
At some point someone's getting their pillow, kicking the other one and leaving in a rage.
Right.
I'm like, why not do that at 10?
Right.
With a peck on the cheek.
And we're literally doing that now.
Like my wife had to get up early to work out.
She said, I'm sleeping in the other room.
Okay, great.
So this begs the question.
Yes.
Does she want to cuddle at night?
Do you want to cuddle at night?
Or that's not necessary anymore.
Or it was never necessary.
I don't know what people do.
I, i want to cuddle more now.
I mean these, we've been together 23 years, so there's ebbs and flows and right now we're in a moment of i want to cuddle, got it and she's hot.
Oh, temperature wise, temperature wise, yeah.
She's like, i'm like, let's cuddle, we don't have to go any further, let's just.
But let's like yeah, let's just cuddle right and i'll ring her into my spoon and i just feel her going.
How much longer?
So yeah, so yeah, she's not into the cuddling right now and that could change.
I could change tomorrow, where shu might want to.
Well you, perimenopause is a seven to ten year process, so i don't know where she is.
It really is uncharted territory.
Um okay, here's another question.
I like to tell this story my, my parents, my father passed uh, eight years ago.
Uh, my father, blessed memory, died eight years ago.
My parents were together for 53 years.
They were married for 51 of them.
Well, they slept on a full bed full, oh my god, not a clean full.
And they're not.
I mean, they're not huge people, but they're not tiny people.
My mom was 5'6".
My dad, we don't know.
I don't remember.
He was 5'9", 5'10".
Whatever.
That's how close they wanted to be.
Are you on a?
I'm picturing like a King, but you know, like Orthodox Jewish couples sleep in two separate beds.
They push them together and then they push them apart when they don't want to do that.
What size bed are you in?
California King.
That's what I was going to guess.
California King.
With a sidecar.
Oh, when we, when we went up to that and I would roll over and see her in the distance, the joy.
We were just so happy.
You're not a particularly tall man.
You're not exceptionally tall.
5'11".
Okay.
I think I'm shrinking, though.
I went back to the Levi's section for the first time.
I was in a Macy's on the road.
I'm like, I need jeans.
I keep buying things online and they never fit.
And I was always a 32 length.
Not anymore?
I went down to 29.
Maybe just your legs are shrinking.
Maybe.
And your wife is not an exceptionally tall person.
No, she's like 5'6".
But California King.
California King is where it's at.
And when we go visit, like my parents, their guest room is full.
Oh.
And we just like, we panic.
As soon as we pull up in the driveway, we're like, oh my God, how are we going to do this?
How are we possibly going to do this?
I understand that.
Right?
Yeah.
I mean, that's a beautiful thing that they were able to do that.
Maybe.
I mean, sure.
Right?
I mean.
It's alarming, though.
It's alarming.
They had some conflict.
Maybe if they had had a bigger bed.
You know what?
Also, I didn't find out until I was well into my 40s that my mother doesn't sleep with a pillow.
What?
She just sleeps.
No pillow.
And she's always had, she always has a very lovely, you know, there's always like pillows and shams.
Like the bed always looks really pretty when it's made.
Like she's like a, everything looks good.
The woman just sleeps.
Cause there was no room.
There was no room for a pillow.
She had your father laying there next door.
That is so strange.
It's so weird.
And she's always on her back.
I'm going the other direction.
I have now a pillow between my legs.
Oh, yeah.
A pillow, a base pillow, and then a smushy top or a pillow goes on top of that.
I'm like, I'm building another bed on top of this shitty bed I have.
I'm going to give you a couple other things to try.
Okay.
A pillow tucked behind your back so you can kind of lean and so you're not totally on your shoulder is fantastic.
Oh, that sounds pretty nice.
So obviously you don't cuddle.
Wait, I'm curious.
What are all the pillows for?
What happens if you don't have all those pillows?
I like something in between.
You know, I don't even need a giant pillow.
I want you to say I like something in between my legs really badly.
That's where I was going.
Okay, go ahead.
I really like something in between my legs.
And it doesn't even have to be a big pillow.
It could be... a piece of the blanket, just fold the blanket.
There's something about it's for your back.
No, it's just the knees.
I don't know.
It's just, I want to, I'm going through a cuddle phase and I'm not getting the cuddles.
So I'm going with pillows and what's really bothering me, which I try not to think about, but I'll say it.
So you have to think about it is when I'm on the road and I and I'm in a hotel and put the pillow between my legs.
Like I'm the only person that's had this pillow between their legs.
No, you're not.
Like who was in here last night and which pillow did they have between their legs?
It's now on my face.
Did it ever occur to you to take your own in between your legs pillow with you?
No.
They make special in-between-the-legs pillows that are like a block, only this big, and they tip down so that your knees don't knock.
I don't want to be fancy, but you ever fly first class on American Airlines?
Not business, but first, they give you a pillow and a little baby pillow.
What?
What?
I think just for that.
For that reason.
It's a knee pillow.
A little knee pillow for your flight.
Can we circle back to one thing before we totally move on?
Did your mother ever try a pillow and was like, no, this isn't for me?
Or she just never tried it?
I don't know.
I mean my whole life.
I thought she slept on that thing that was propped up with all the other Laura Ashley things.
How did you find out?
Um...
Not to be sad.
It might have been, I stayed over.
You stayed in her bed?
Not in her bed.
No, when my father passed away, I slept on the floor.
And you don't want to criticize a grieving woman.
What the fuck?
You're not sleeping on a pillow.
What is wrong with you?
I'm sad.
No, I mean the pillow.
It's so weird.
That is really weird.
The part that you know I was dying at the most was all the fear that she has collected throughout the day.
Oh yeah okay, so wait.
So you you yeah, you mentioned this that like right, when the lights go down, something happens to your wife.
The other time my wife likes to talk is late at night, when we lay down in bed and turn out the lights.
That's when she likes to talk about cancer, child abductions and the end of days, And she goes on and on.
She takes all of the stuff, all of the news that she collected during the day and she's going to sprinkle it on my side of the bed until she runs out and then falls asleep.
And then I end up staring at the ceiling for the next five hours.
Yeah, that's very true.
In defense of the wife.
In defense of the wife.
Here's what I'm going to say.
I would never intentionally want to cause someone grief at that time of day.
You also don't want to hold it yourself.
No, I don't want to hold it myself.
No, but there's, in all honesty, when you were talking about this in the special, there's something about Sometimes it's hard to get someone's attention, right?
Like sometimes it's really hard to get someone's attention.
And you know that at that moment when the lights go down.
They can't escape.
They can't escape.
And you have a captive audience for the things that you need to tell them.
I don't know.
Would it change or have you ever tried being like, honey, let's have a meeting at like 830?
Yeah.
Have the dump?
Have half an hour where I'm totally available.
Where also I don't have to try to sleep right after.
I'm just thinking about her needs.
She has things she needs to talk about.
This is why I'm saying maybe there's a compromise.
No, but she may need... Again, I'm thinking about her needs.
She may need that calm of knowing I don't have to like...
Do anything.
I don't have to unload the dishwasher or put the dishes away or deal with the cats.
It's just me.
This is the list.
Sorry, it just became my list.
You just went through the checklist.
No, but also there's something to that moment when it's like, and that's what that person's for.
Yeah.
I don't know.
You're right, but it doesn't help me.
Is it what that person is for, though?
Right.
Is it?
Yeah.
Some things you just want to tell that person and not just like a girlfriend.
There's a journal, but there's not a journal, but she's not working it out.
She's not working it out.
She's not looking right.
She's not looking for assistance or, like she I literally, as she's doing it, I'm going.
Yeah, that's horrible.
Well, you never know.
You know what I mean?
Like, there's nothing constructive.
She just is literally, she's just downloading.
Right.
The computer's got to get all this stuff out of its system.
Ever, do you ever sit there and be like, this is taking longer than normal.
She should be asleep by now.
When it's really what it's a lot of times she'll start downloading.
And I know, if I haven't been patient enough or if I haven't responded enough, I'll hear her just kind of roll over and I'll think she's she's leaving.
She's going to go.
She's taking her worries to the other room.
She's going to just download to the cat.
Evolutionarily speaking, for most of human history, female people were not necessarily sleeping with their male partner.
They slept like in communal places with people who gave a shit and wanted to listen to the things we have to say.
I don't know.
I don't know the technical term, but yeah, I think I read about that.
It was called a murmuring tent and they would all go in a tent and just murmur together until they go to sleep.
You know what is true?
You have daughters.
Yes.
I have sons.
He has a son.
Um, children often reveal really interesting and important things in that time period.
Like once the lights are out.
That's often a time when children will sometimes want to.
I'm not saying, women are like children.
What I'm saying is that it's an intimate time.
They're more emotionally available.
Yeah.
And we are not.
I see that.
And we, and if you, I like what you were saying.
I don't.
The idea of declaring let's have an eight o'clock shit fest does not appeal to me, but it would be better if it happened then, because we, when we here's the difference.
When my wife says let's go to bed, i think okay, brush my teeth and i'll be asleep in 10 minutes.
This is your wind down, we're going to bed.
Yeah, she's saying let's start the project.
That is bedtime and part of that is also talking into the night.
I love this.
I related so much because- I want to sleep with your wife.
I also grind my teeth.
I have a night guard.
I think we'd be good friends.
There's a lot going on.
Are you a night owl?
No.
Okay.
No.
You used to be.
That was just because I didn't know how to sleep.
He had to teach me to sleep like I was a toddler.
We had to do some retraining.
We did some retraining.
Maybe you can come to my house.
If I'm on the road, she has a hard time making herself go to sleep.
I'm the gravity that brings her.
Well, she's got to unload all those things.
Well, without that, she's orbiting in all of that anxiety.
It's very hard to settle.
Yeah.
She also has, you know, talk about emotions.
It's like she, you know, we can shut things off and go to sleep.
And she's really thinking about everyone she's caring for, the parents or the kids or the animals.
You mean she's having feelings?
She's having feelings.
Very.
We unplug and that's it.
The only feeling I would need is that little pillow between my legs.
All that feeling is very distracting.
Do you feel?
I mean, you don't feel old enough for me to say you're a different generation of comedian, but you're a different style of comedian.
Meaning, I mean, you know, I was looking at some of your, you know, your kind of early references.
Like you know, we had Steve Martin records like that we would listen to.
You know, it's a very different kind of era.
Yeah.
Do you feel that kind of difference in terms of like the style of comedy you do or the way that you came up?
Yeah, I don't feel it.
I definitely saw the landscape of it.
It's constantly changing.
Like there's this great era now of no gatekeepers.
Like when I was coming up, I had to get on Letterman.
I had to get on The Tonight Show.
And if you didn't, You didn't.
Right.
And you didn't sell tickets and nobody knew you.
Star search, you know.
Right.
Exactly.
And now you can just be funny and just put yourself on YouTube.
And there are people who are having great success on the road, who never even were in a comedy club, never didn't have to go through that hierarchy.
That's nuts.
Yeah.
It's pretty remarkable, which is it's pretty great for young comics going through it and starting and, but again, like we all have to work so much harder now everybody has to do all these different things.
As far as the style, or just the art form, i i am, i do.
I am aware that i'm more traditional.
Uh, i i love jokes.
I love my style is more classic, but that's also what i really like.
Like there's so many genres of comedy now.
It's a lot more like music now, where there's so many different styles from so many different voices and some people are cool watching a comic, not really tell jokes and be funny every six minutes.
You know what i mean.
Like and it's more confessional and and that's cool.
It's just not my style.
I like, i like it to be so dense with laughs, that.
But also I mean, I'm not an expert, but I am somewhat of a connoisseur of this form and this kind of format in particular.
You're also not jokey, meaning you're funny.
And I think that's also sort of what is so appealing about your writing.
Mm-hmm.
And kind of your performance is.
You are observing things in ways that have just a different and better lens than I think most of us would have.
And I actually had a question about that.
And you know I've read a little bit about sort of how you started meaning what you discovered as a young person.
You know, and
And I resonated with that because I remember, like the first time I realized like oh, I can make them laugh.
Like, I can do something.
And, you know, it's like that, you know, you get that drug.
It is a drug.
But I'm curious, like, it seems like a lot of funny things happen to you.
And I also note that throughout your work, there's this notion of like, we're just all humans.
Like you're not having exceptional experiences.
You're having very kind of, I don't want to say, it's not even banal.
It's just like, you're just having life.
Yeah.
Do you believe that that is the lens with which you see it?
Do you believe that you have some talent to sort of?
You know make, make it funnier than it would be to someone else?
Like what is your what what makes it funny when you say it?
Yeah.
I don't know.
That's.
There's a lot to that.
I mean there's, there's definitely.
Yeah, there was that thing of like when you start out and you watch people who have like a one-person show about these horrible things that happen to them, you're like, oh my god, they have, or they.
You just see they're like twisted and how did they grow up?
That was like heavy and their art comes from that and mine didn't.
Mine came from family and just being around a lot of characters and all of that stuff.
But i just saw that things were funny very early and the more i got, the more i observed and the more i went through life, i just realized that it's all pretty hilarious and even the things that were really painful, those two can go through that lens and i just i it just formed as a way of living.
It just seemed like i'm not going to let the heaviness of all of this drag me down.
I'm going to enjoy this as much as possible and i was also had just a sensitivity that an artist has, where you're kind of You see it all.
You know what I mean?
You do.
You're just more sensitive and you kind of like you could be in the same situation and I could, you know with my sister and I'll see the thing at a different level than she will.
She'll see it practically or whatever.
And I'm like I, can I know when that person is like feeling in a bad mood or whatever, like I'm reading the room in a different way.
So I think it's the combination of those two things.
I'm always looking for the little wrinkles that makes it funny.
And also, this is a very rough, scary place.
As beautiful as it is, it's also very rough and scary.
And I don't see, I'm not able to survive it without finding humor in it.
There's so much to that that I find appealing, mostly because I don't even understand.
Like I hear the words you're saying and I hear how you put them together, like the phonemes, and they connect and they make sentences.
But you know, that's just like you know.
You've talked about sort of why people view things differently.
And some of it is it's a genetic thing.
It's a genetic fluke.
It's an environmental fluke.
It's like some combination and you can have two kids in the same family and one sees it one way and one sees it another.
And I wonder, who are the other comedians that you sort of came up with?
Was that helpful for you in terms of an environment of comedy?
Because most of us, when we think of comedians, like there's a lot of darkness.
You know, some of my favorite comics had very, very dark, you know, protected kind of lives.
But when you were kind of coming up, were you surrounded?
I mean, I know obviously you crossed paths with Seinfeld, but were there other comedians that you felt supported that?
Or were you like the guy who seems to be in a good mood when no one else is?
There's a little of that for sure.
Okay.
You're that guy.
There's a little of that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I had the reputation of being in New York.
You know, there was Dave Attell and Nick DiPaolo and Patrice O'Neill.
And, you know, there was Jim Norton.
And, like, there was these guys who were all carrying weight.
And they were all muddling through it in this different way.
And I was seen as, like, the really nice, friendly guy.
I was seen as, like, that guy.
And... when I first showed up, I was like, do I have to be like those guys?
Like when I first started working in the comedy cellar, I would like kind of lean against the wall and be like let me tell you guys how it is.
And the audience who never met me were like, what are you doing?
And I was swearing.
Like, I don't even curse that much in real life.
And I was like, you fucking guys.
And they're like, what are you doing?
And then when I stopped, When I put blinders on and stopped watching everybody else and just was myself, then I started having some more success.
Because it's really what it is.
You can only be you.
You can only be you and tell you and translate you to them.
And so, yeah, I had that kind of kind of a rep.
Did you get flack from the other comedians?
Like, why are you so happy?
Because sometimes, when people are a little down or carrying weight, as you say, like the guy who's like kind of skipping through the hallways, you're like what's happening here?
Yeah, there's this great thing from The Sopranos when James Gandolfini's And he's talking about he's in therapy and he's talking about how he sees all these guys out there like whistling.
They're like whistling during the day, like having a good time.
And it's making him so angry.
These guys are just whistling their way through life.
And I would often think about that.
But but the reality is.
Well, first to answer your question, they wouldn't get mad at me because they were friends, but they we're all waiting for the day when the secret comes out, for when when, when I blow, when I eventually eventually, he's going to snap that kind of a thing.
Yeah.
But the reality is I had just as many heavy things at a young age than anyone else did.
But I just come genetically and my parents who went through the depression and all of that horrible stuff.
And two grandmothers that were just like, no, we don't, we don't go to the depths.
We're dust off.
This is a blessing.
Keep going.
I just had that mantra from them and my genetic makeup.
And that was just my outlook.
So I was just going to keep living that way.
It was really the combination of those things really.
When you were describing it before, you said something to the effect of you know, you weren't going to let that stuff bring you down.
Was it like a?
You know, it sounds like your grandparents had that, and so they were instilling it in you.
But like, do you remember a conscious choice as a kid?
You're like, oh, this could, you know, I could be really upset by this and sort of chose that path.
Like it felt conscious when you were describing it.
Well, they just it was just it was just rammed into our little heads.
And from people who went through horrible, horrible things, right?
And it was just put into our heads over and over again. yes, but move forward.
Yes, this is tragic, but go.
And this is a blessing.
And I had my grandmother who had all these kids and no money.
And one of my aunts had this horrible bone disease.
And she was in a wheelchair her whole life.
We just had all this perspective of whatever suffering was. but you but your grandmother would say yeah but okay now come sit down and let's let's let's sit and talk and i'm so lucky to have you here like it was that thing so it wasn't like one cut thing but then when when that's put into your head over and over again this is a blessing keep going be positive just enjoy your life uh yes there's tragedy but just keep going then when things popped up you were kind of, that was your toolbox, right?
So when someone dies and it takes you out, you know it's not like zippity-doo-dah and I'm, it's just.
But you'll get back to it, or at least you know that that's where you should be headed.
Sometimes it takes a long time, but Yeah, I think.
But you know there's also the genetic makeup of it is, too is like you're blessed if you don't have the chemical, the chemical set that you know I don't, I didn't, I never had to suffer from that.
It's fascinating to me because you know obviously, what we talk about a lot here you know, is the things that you know that make us who we are.
And there's many factors for that.
But, you know, one of the things that a lot of people have suggested is like positive affirmation.
Like if you're depressed, positive affirmations.
And like, you know, at a certain point, I'm assuming that it's too late.
Like, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
You can tell me that all day.
Like I can.
Well, we have had scientists that explain that they do work.
But it's easier when they're coming from a very young age and you're seeing the model versus having to do start it later in life.
Yeah, right.
Exactly.
I totally get that.
It was.
I kind of had to learn that from the other side, because when I would have friends that were suffering or whatever, to me it was like Snap out of it.
Right.
How'd that go?
It's easy for me to snap out.
Like I literally could be like, okay, let's turn this day around.
Let's turn this day around.
You know what I mean?
Like I, I have that chip, but I, but I have friends that have real issues.
Right.
There is no, no, no.
There's no, and you're right.
It's like a double clap.
Yeah.
Right.
Exactly.
45.
But it's also requires you know empathy from you that maybe you know to like see people not be able to do that double clap.
And, like you know, I would imagine it would take like a little bit of like.
Why can't they do that if it's, you know, natural for you?
Yeah.
But, you know, yeah, I learned that, you know, I don't know when, but.
Well, I'm you have two teenage girls.
So I'm curious if there also is like a moment as a parent where you have a different understanding of sort of meaning, you can do that for yourself.
Yeah.
But you can't always do that.
I mean, it's kind of like our kids go through all sorts of things.
And I have my younger one is very tender.
And, you know, he will feel things that I don't think he should feel.
Right.
Right.
Like, like we're good.
Like, like school, like 30,000 foot view.
And he's like, I don't want a 30,000 foot view.
So I'm actually, I'm curious.
And not just because I want to, like you know, pick on your personal life, but I think that you know especially a lot of people that we talk to.
It's like I'm barely taking care of myself.
And then I have to take care of other people too.
So I'm curious did you bump up against any of this of like oh, this works for me, but it's not always going to work for my wife or my kids?
Or does it work for your kids?
Maybe you found the way to make perfect humans and this is it.
It's the Papa Method.
That would be great.
Yeah, that could be my next book.
I'd just go full self-help based on nothing.
Yeah, it's.
I mean, having kids is great because that almost made taking care of me a lot easier, because
I remember when we were about to have kids, I was so into me.
I was to the point of like, enough already.
Let's make some new people.
Let's talk about somebody else.
But there is that thing that I learned that I wasn't prepared, that you have to sometimes raise people who you do not understand.
They're experiencing emotions that I don't get.
And I wasn't that way.
And it's like, so how do I raise that?
How do I support that?
When I want to say like, you know, get over it or, but you can't.
And you're not just talking about that.
They're female and you're not.
No, this is just emotionally like getting in a dark place or feeling something.
And yeah, translating an experience in a way that I just don't understand.
You know, it's a different kind of a person.
And my wife is similar to me.
We kind of approach the big problems and the thing kind of similar.
So then, when you have moments when your kids, when neither of us, understand what is happening now with them, that was tricky and there's no solve for it.
Really.
I didn't find it was just be there and kind of let them be, try and guide them, but also just let them let them have it.
Let them just acknowledge that.
Okay.
Don't fight them on it.
Let them kind of go through whatever they're going through.
You know what I mean?
Like, That was hard for me because I like to be able to take control and solve stuff.
And it's similar to my wife at night when she's going through the list in bed.
It's like oh, I want to.
I have a rebuttal for every one of these comments, but she doesn't want it.
So I just have to clam up.
This is possibly a strange question.
Do you think that... I really like...
I like what your grandparents instilled in you.
It's not what my grandparents instilled in me, but I really like it very much.
I wonder if that philosophy, that perspective- Yeah does it feel more like it fits another time as opposed to our life now?
Meaning when I think of the challenges that our kids in particular are dealing with, like and I know it's a little bit of a fallacy to be like life was simpler than you know when you were a kid or you know cause there were complexities obviously then as well.
But I wonder, when I think of the things that my kids are dealing with, it's not just their own psyche or their friends.
It's like they have a thing in their hand that tells them what's happening in the whole whole world, the whole school, every party i wasn't invited to.
I just heard about the next day and cried for six years like you can live stream your shame.
Now you know.
So i wonder also if that felt, if that feels like a an extra challenge, that when you come from a perspective of like it's okay, like we're gonna do this, whereas those of us who were cynical angry, dark and miserable when all these things happen, we're like yeah right, i told you that was gonna happen, Right.
Life sucks.
We're all doomed.
Everyone's a jerk.
But we're both digesting the same meal.
We're both digesting the same thing.
The thing I was taught was don't give up hope.
It was still, yeah, this shit's going to happen.
But it was always just, it was hope.
It was hope.
And they have to digest a lot more of it.
And we didn't, like you said, the news was something that was on when I walked through the room.
They have to deal with it.
But I think that's the biggest challenge with hope is it's easy to be hopeful when things are nice, when things are dark.
That's when it's most valuable and most difficult.
Beautifully said.
Do your children think you're funny?
They do.
They do?
Yeah.
Tell me about it.
Did they always think you're funny?
Before they knew you were a guy who other people think are funny?
Yeah, they always thought I was funny.
Then when they started noticing that other people thought I was funny, they were like, why?
What is he doing?
Like, what is that?
He can make me laugh over there.
But what's that on the TV?
Like anytime my wife would be like let's watch dad on conan and put it on, and they would dance in front of the tv like no, how about you should look at me with my baton?
And then, and then uh, i don't know how much to this day, i don't know how much they care for my act.
Uh, did they give you notes?
I'll give my older one some of my writing too.
If I have an essay, I'll run it past her sometimes.
She's really good.
And they both have a good sense of humor.
So they're good with that.
But I don't really care if they think my work is funny.
But I can make them laugh.
Hanging out little stuff, inappropriate stuff at dinner, like whatever, like I can still make making them laugh is still like a barometer for me.
You know, it really is is nice.
And a lot of your material is about situations, but not necessarily specifics.
Is that a conscious choice also to sort of leave a lot of details about them in particular out?
About them in particular?
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm always trying to kind of figure out the balance of that.
So I have all these jokes now that they're going to college about being pretty happy about it.
And I'm wondering how they're going to take it.
And I don't want them like.
And you can say all the time, Like this last special I talked about my wife a lot.
Yeah.
And...
Because I think it's because we came off of the pandemic.
We were together all the time.
And I and I always try and make it soft.
And I also in my mind, it's all exaggeration.
And it's very clear you have a I mean, what seems like a deep affection, you know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So but, you know, I'm conscious of not throwing everybody under the bus.
I don't if there's things that are real private, I never even go think about talking about it.
Um, but sometimes you just don't know how it's going to land.
Like well they uh well, my wife, she's the they um be going through something where, for some reason, this thing that I thought was innocuous all of a sudden Hey, was hurtful.
Uh, but again, like the kids, you know, it's funny with the kids.
I had a joke years ago about, um, a mean girl raising him, raising a mean girl.
And no one said anything.
I didn't think they even knew I was telling jokes.
And it came out years later in some conversation.
Who was the mean girl?
I was like, oh, they are watching.
But they're not concerned enough to comment.
But they wanted to know who the mean girl was.
And we all knew who it was.
I did have one more question.
Sorry, just to go back.
I forgot to ask this.
In terms of sort of like your positive attitude and especially when you're talking about, you know, being a young, you know a comedian when you were starting out, you talk, you know kind of here and there about like pot, and you talk about like alcohol like, but just like here and there.
I wonder, was that ever a part of your like was self-medicating in any way, even in you know what we call socially acceptable ways?
Was that ever something that was helpful to you as a comedian?
Because also a lot of people think of comedians and it's like the drugs and the depravity.
It doesn't seem like you were that guy, but I also like didn't want to gloss over the fact that, like some people might be like well, he's been stoned, like the last 20, you're like I don't know.
Um, but I don't know if you know, if you related at all to especially you talked about in the early days, like there's a lot of like drinking and hanging out and like you know, it's that kind of culture.
I wonder where that fits into sort of your attitude, or if it's just a totally separate thing and not a thing.
Yeah.
I, I was, you know, I was always funny as a kid and then, but I was an athlete and I
I got high like at the end of high school and then a lot in college.
That's when we were like doing mushrooms and getting high and doing all that stuff.
And I think that it definitely helped kick some doors open and let me see things differently.
I grew up very much in a culture of, you know, not seeing the other side.
You know, we were all taught like kind of the traditional stuff about the country and about the stuff.
And this gave me oh OK, I'm meeting some other people and they're showing me there's a different, there are different stories about all of this.
I think it was great for that.
But.
It got in the way of my funny.
Being high.
And I remember it.
And this was before I was a comic.
I used to riff in high school with this other kid.
He was this Irish kid.
And he was just really kind of big and gregarious.
He was just great with slurs.
And he was so funny.
And whenever he was older than me, he was like two years older.
And whenever we'd be at a party, we would riff.
We would be making everybody laugh.
And we were kind of like feeding on each other and one-upping each other.
And I came back like my second year in college and I was high and I went to a party and he was there and he buried me.
He just ran circles around me.
I was like, oh man, this is not good.
But I was kind of into smoking a lot.
So it took a couple more years and really meeting my wife was like she didn't like want to hang out with some guy stoned all the time.
Hmm.
And I was on the way out of it anyway.
She really kind of was like, I don't want I want her.
I don't want to whatever is going to make her like me more.
I'm going to keep doing healthy.
Yeah.
So it was.
So, yeah, I think it was valuable.
I think it was cool.
It was a nice little part, but it was a short run.
Well, and I think a lot of people feel like and it could be also different for everybody.
Everybody's got a different, you know, genetic template for this stuff.
Yeah.
You know, for some people it can release inhibition and a lot of people feel like they're funnier.
Yeah.
I famously say I'm a lot more fun after a drink and a half.
Yeah.
I just choose not to partake.
So everyone just has to deal with me grumpy and miserable now.
Until you get a rash and then fall asleep.
I literally gained an adult allergy to alcohol.
For real?
For real.
And I was like, okay, God, I get it.
No fun.
But, generally speaking, there are those among us who do feel like, oh gosh, that's an inhibition if you don't have a spiritual or physical allergy, as it were.
Right.
That can be a thing, but it's, it's interesting.
And I, I appreciate that.
And it also, it's, it's making me fill out more of the Tom Papa, you know, genetic profile.
I'm like, he is wired for positivity.
He is not wired for dissociating and numbing out.
Yeah.
It's interesting because I'm also, I mean, this positivity is the thing that I'm always working.
It's just like, well, I've said before, but also truth be told, I was very anxious.
I talk about it in the book like, like being like.
If my father would like park on a street, I'd be.
The night would be ruined because he looked at the sign weird.
And I was like, we're going to get towed.
We're never getting out of Manhattan.
Like I was always kind of scared.
I think I still am.
I think I still have a part of me.
Even though I travel all the time, I'm nervous about getting to the airport.
I'm nervous about the returning the rental car.
Like I have, So weed at a certain point also made me more frightened.
It was like there would be a time when I would just you know it starts.
It's so hilarious and fun.
And then at the end it was like as soon as I'd get high, I'm like I'm frightened and anxious and I want this to be over.
Why do I keep smoking this?
Because you're hoping for that initial high to be better than or what it used to be.
Right.
First, it's fun.
Then it's fun with problems.
Then it's just problems.
Now I'm down to one martini.
I feel like one martini, like the classic five o'clock.
If I could stop at one, that's a great night.
Like one martini talk with my wife before dinner and then That's when you have to have her brain dumped, is when you're having your martini.
I'd be happy to do it then.
She's not thinking about it.
I think you can prime her.
You think so?
I think there's strategies.
What did you call it?
Did you have a name for the session?
Oh, at the 8.30 session?
Yeah.
Yeah, I think it's like we need to have an emotional processing, or what it sounds like is she's emotionally spewing, and so maybe, if it can be organized a little bit,
I'm with your wife.
She wants the lights out and your head on the pillow, and that's where she wants you.
Yeah, she doesn't need me with the martini giving opinions about all of it.
No, she wants you quiet and facing the other way.
Close the light in the living room, turn the chair...
Pretend you're about to take a nap.
Late evening nap.
That's when I want to talk to you is when the lights go out.
When the lights go out here, I'm like, where's Tom?
What would I tell him?
There's also something that came up.
It's in your last special in particular.
There's something about you say that she was, I spoke to your mother.
And I...
I like that also when you know, in the darkness of your room.
That's when that quality of information also comes out.
And you do it a couple of times, right?
Right, right, right.
Because I can't remember what it's, there's some information, but it's like, that's the first thing you don't want to hear.
Right.
Is I spoke to your mother.
I spoke to your mom on the phone today.
How many more years do you think?
Oh, she sounded so old.
I spoke to your mom on the phone.
She sounded so old.
How much more time do you think we have with her?
And she just keeps doing it and then she starts winding down.
That's right.
I spoke to your mom.
I spoke to your... That's what it was.
And then I stared at the ceiling.
Yeah.
I just love that.
It's true.
I love it so much.
Do you also think that... I think she really enjoys and I don't give her enough of it.
Like I'm your wife's proxy.
Yeah, I know.
Yes.
But it's good.
But you are... Yes.
You've been right so far.
I think that...
She enjoyed when my first daughter went to college.
She caught me in bed crying the week before.
I never saw her so happy.
And I think what she says, I spoke to your mom on the phone today.
She's getting so old.
How much more time do you think we have?
She wants me to.
She wants to see some emotion.
Right.
That's called connecting.
Is it?
I mean, yeah.
Well, here's a question.
Yes.
Do you cry other times?
Not that often.
I get misty, but I don't really cry.
I'm not saying women are like children.
I'm not saying that, but... This is the second time that's come up in this episode, and I'm worried.
This is the second time I am not saying this.
Let me say...
For the record.
What I was going to say is that humans, you know, we're taught that children are always trying to get their needs met, and they may not do it in a way that is efficient.
It may not make sense.
It may be annoying and they will get louder.
Right.
If you do not sort of meet that need.
Yeah.
Right.
And so they'll keep getting louder.
So the example is like you know the time when you know, when you shout at your kid for like tugging at you in the supermarket.
Yeah.
They've usually asked you seven times before for whatever they needed your attention from.
And it's not until they tug you that you're like get off of me, when what they really wanted was probably a half hour ago.
And it's been building.
So when I think of not just women, but humans... I'll save you here.
I'll add a little thing to save you here.
I don't need saving.
None of us are adults anyway.
We're all just small children in large bodies.
Good point.
What I'm thinking is that, you know, if I were to look at, like, what is the need?
And you know, I mean you said it kind of in jest, but we want someone to mirror what we're feeling like.
We want to know my partner is connected to me.
We want to know i'm feeling something.
I gotta get something from him, because like that's how humans bond, right even look, oh wait, he's feeling something.
No no okay, and moving on.
We want them to track what we're feeling, but also we want to know that they're feeling anything at all.
There you go right.
Yeah, I do, yeah.
I haven't called a cyborg by her once in a while.
He calls me a robot.
Well, you cry more than most robots.
I'm like the tin man.
But you have moments of... I'm the tin man who got a heart.
Have you ever been to therapy?
No.
I don't even know what you are.
I think you are a cyborg.
You've never, it just wasn't necessary.
No.
No one ever said like, go to therapy.
Uh-uh.
Not even your wife?
No.
Maybe you don't need it.
I'm just fascinated.
Yeah, no, I've never gone.
I've never gone.
My daughter goes.
Okay.
And even when you said Sopranos, I'm like, he went to therapy.
I didn't have, I didn't, I had no feeling like I needed it.
Did you have like lowercase T trauma in your life?
Did anything happen?
Lowercase what?
Lowercase T trauma.
Meaning like, I'm not asking, like, like things happen to you.
A hundred percent.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
My dad was big and scary.
Oh, my best.
I've had a series.
All my best friends have died since I was 14.
What happened?
They all died.
They became my best friends and then they died.
My first one when I was 14.
Wow.
Next one when I was college.
And then my last one when I got into comedy.
Wow.
And yeah, I've always hadn't.
I've had some heavy stuff.
Right.
But I think a part of it is being able to be a comedian, be up on stage.
Like I don't go like that.
I think having that cathartic experience makes me feel less alone.
It was definitely, even though, if I'm not speaking about something specifically, I'm still getting it out.
I think that's probably part of it.
And yeah huh, when does your wife call you a cyborg?
What's happening when she does that?
Um, she calls me a cyborg sometimes if i'm not giving her the emotion, if i'm not, if i'm yeah, if i can, if i just quickly analyze something, and she'll be like oh stop, let's just cry.
Does she go therapy?
Does she like therapy?
No, she doesn't.
Wow.
We came from the same kindergarten.
Oh.
We didn't meet until we were comedians in New York.
But we were a year apart in the same kindergarten teacher.
Wow.
And there's something about growing up in this kind of New Jersey kind of like parents not paying attention to you.
We didn't grow up in a culture of help.
So we all kind of just scrambled for ourselves.
I think I don't know.
You know there's many factors, but I think that's we both kind of see the world that way.
And yeah, we don't go to a lot of therapy.
Right.
Was your was your mom very loving, very maternal?
Like was it your dad also like rode a motorcycle?
Like he was kind of like yeah, he was an unusual guy.
Yeah, he was.
He was.
He was.
He's intense.
He's an intense presence.
Yeah.
Like very strict, intense guy.
Loving.
But right.
And your mom.
Hilarious.
Yeah. very funny, loving, not too touchy feely loving, but, but very funny.
And she was more like one of the kids.
And my dad was like, yeah, we've talked about this previously on the pod.
And I.
There's like a whole movement for men that you know.
I don't know how old you are, but most men that I know of my age, definitely older than me, definitely my dad's generation.
Like crying was just not a thing.
I didn't see my father cry until I was 14.
Right.
And years later, this is, you know, I don't know.
25 years after that, he was having something wrong with his throat.
And he calls me.
He goes, yeah, for six months, I haven't been able to swallow.
And it's really affecting him.
And he's getting all these tests done.
I don't know why I think of this.
I said, Dad, when was the last time you cried?
And he goes, I don't know.
No, but when was the last time you really lost your shit?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then he says, it's like, oh, when your grandfather died.
And, you know, that was when I was four.
In 1985?
It was 1993.
And, you know, it was at least 25, 30 years later.
Wow.
And I'm like, you know, there's a level of that we all push it away.
Yeah.
And we've been taught not to go there.
Yeah, actually learning how to surrender to it in whatever form we're able to has actually such strength because we're no longer fearing the thing.
Yeah.
We're able to experience it.
Was that why he wasn't swallowing?
I never actually figured that out.
25 years worth of tears in his throat.
Yeah yeah, i don't actually know.
I think it resolved in some way, but he did um in the last many years, start to um, really try to embrace it and a lot more emotion.
He used to have anger and anxiety.
Those were the things that he was.
It's a weird thing.
It definitely is.
As a man, it is a and i'm not saying men are not children.
Uh, there is, there is that thing as a.
As for myself, being a father like i didn't want my kids rolling in many days finding me on the couch crying like there's a part of, there's a part of me that is the captain of this ship yep, And the world is chaotic.
They're looking at shit on their phones.
They want to feel like it's going to be okay.
And coming home every day with me like on the couch wouldn't work.
For sure.
Some of us are single parents, and that's what it's like for their children, and you just have to deal with it, Tom.
There's no other adult in my house, they're gonna get the full range.
But i had my wife who could lose it and then i could be kind of like suck it up and whatever.
But there's definitely a middle ground and now that they're not around now i can cry all the time.
My wife would love it.
She would love it.
She would really would.
We'll call her after and let her know that you'll be crying more when you get home.
Let's do rapid fire.
Rapid fire.
Breakdown style.
What was your mother right about?
What was my mother right about?
She was right.
My mother.
She was right about cooking.
That cooking and sitting down with the family was important.
What is your favorite thing to cook?
Um, bread and italian food.
Okay, any italian, any italian food.
Yeah, that's not part of the rapid fire, but i just it is now.
It is now.
What was your father right about?
You can do anything.
Very determined strong, individual location that promotes your best mental health.
The beach oh, any beach.
Yeah, Like Orchard Beach or like West Coast Beach.
Jersey Shore.
Oh.
Malibu.
Bahamas.
Any beach.
Oh, great.
Any beach.
I don't like beaches with rocks.
You mean you want to be able to walk into the water?
I want sand.
Got it.
You know, there's all those great European beaches, they say, and then there's like a bunch of people sitting on rocks like sea lions.
That makes me nervous.
That's not good peace of mind. do you have a mantra?
Are you a TM person?
So you, you found a way to TM, but different than therapy.
Yes.
Right.
How long have you been a TM person?
10 years.
Wow.
Okay.
You can't tell us your mantra.
No.
Oh no.
You're serious about this one.
But if you had a saying that is not your mantra, something that gets you through life, what would that be?
My special in book before this one was You're Doing Great.
And it came from – that's how I talk to everybody.
Like if we're with production on the road, or if we're with my kids going to the diner or going through a funeral or whatever it is.
Every once in a while I'll just say to everybody all right, you're doing great.
You're doing great.
And –
I really I like hearing that.
And when I started doing it on the road, people started coming up to me after and saying thank you for saying that.
No one ever tells you that.
We all think that like we're never able to get through and we're not good enough.
So you're doing great is up there, too.
Am I doing great right now?
You're doing great.
Thanks.
Really are.
Who's been your best spiritual teacher?
Probably the grandmothers.
Oh, were you raised Catholic?
Catholic.
Did you like go to the thing and everything.
Did the whole thing.
They ate the thing.
Ate the thing.
They did the thing.
Did the thing.
Oh, Cried about the thing.
Okay, got it.
Still carry guilt from the thing.
Got it.
Said sorry for the thing.
Sorry for the thing.
Never feel good enough because of the thing.
Okay, got it.
Yeah.
But they... Yeah, I mean, that was... They were both... It kept them going.
They were both alone at the end and one for longer.
And...
Whatever that was, it was purely spiritual and it kept them afloat.
Nice.
Yeah.
Moment of best intuition.
Meeting my wife.
Nice.
Where did you meet?
We met in New York at the comic strip.
I had a sketch group at the time and we had a mutual manager and he told her to come and introduce herself and see if she could be a part of the sketch group.
And she came up and talked.
And Ian Bagg is a great comedian.
We were together, and she came up and introduced herself and talked about the sketch group.
And then it was like she walked away and ian was like what the hell was that?
What just happened between the two of you?
And it was something happened wow, yeah.
And then just a quick little story uh, fast forward like a couple weeks.
I felt something.
We didn't know what it was whatever, anyway she goes.
I mean you didn't know what attraction was.
I i knew what attraction was, but i didn't know, like magic, yeah and uh.
And she said I'm going home for Thanksgiving.
I said, where do you live?
And she goes, you wouldn't know.
I said, where is it?
She said, Park Ridge, New Jersey.
I said, oh, do you have Miss Conway for kindergarten?
Magic.
We had all these things, that we had same summer jobs, because I only moved one town over in third grade.
Same summer jobs, same pool, same parties.
Never met until then.
Sweet.
Yeah.
Who are you most competitive with?
I guess bad comedians.
I like that answer.
This is no justice.
And final question.
What do you know to be true?
Love is real.
There's a tendency to hold back from it because it could end up hurting you.
You know, love is also a heartbreak.
But I had a good line at dinner the other night with my wife.
I said, something's going to kill us.
It might as well be love.
Sweet.
That is a good one.
Yeah.
You're a good writer.
That was a good one.
You should write a book.
You're doing great.
You're doing great.
The book is We're All In This Together, So Make Some Room.
So much fun to talk to you.
Where can people find you on all of the social media places?
Just go to Tom Papa and you'll find it.
I don't have to teach your people how to use the internet.
That's probably true.
They got it.
They'll find me.
All my stuff is out there.
Thank you so much.
Such a pleasure to sit with you.
I was really looking forward to this.
And thank you for my sourdough.
It was great.
Yeah.
Let me know how you like it.
Oh, I will.
And I'll give you my challah recipe.
Yes, please.
I literally thought I, I thought I caught him.
I was like, I bet he's never had one bad thing happen.
And he's like, Oh no, I've had bad things happen.
He's just positive.
Doesn't give up hope.
Do I sound ridiculous that I'm like, why are you not messed up?
You want people to be a little bit off kilter?
No, I just, you know what it is?
Do you know what it is?
I want to believe that I have a reason that I struggle, like Oh, because hard things happen.
Or like Didn't you see your meditation?
You went into nature and you found peace.
Yes, I did see my meditation.
What I'm saying is I really want to believe that there's some formula.
There is a formula.
No, but there's not.
To me, the formula is like, he's fine because nothing ever happened to him.
But if anything bad happens to you, you're screwed.
No, he is the way he is because he had great models before in people who were older than him, while he was a child, helping him set.
That's the secret.
Yeah.
And the reason why people do mantras is to try to gain some of that from themselves, because they didn't have parents or grandparents who said acknowledge the bad.
Yes, these things are hard and difficult and people are struggling and you're going to face challenging times in your life that are going to be painful.
Yes, and something we practice here.
Yes, and you can also be okay.
Look who got so smart.
It was all tom.
I just you know he.
Now i don't have to blame my parents anymore, i have to blame my grandparents.
You don't blame anybody.
You start doing your mantras in the mirror every day.
I don't think that's the answer.
It helps.
It starts to... Rewire.
It starts to rewire.
It starts to... What is the automatic response we have?
Something horrible.
Sorry.
That is often the automatic response to... What do you say no to?
Everything.
Exactly.
But you've changed enormously.
I was thinking the difference between like season one of this podcast and now we're rounding out season three.
We are?
Yeah, it's kind of crazy.
What?
That's how long we've been doing this?
And I'm still not fixed?
I'm still not done, Bob?
Well, we needed to go three years so that we had a model to work for.
And I think it's the Papa model of health.
You don't give up hope.
Things go wrong.
You keep going.
People die.
People die.
You make jokes.
And you tell everyone that they're doing, what does he say?
And you're doing great.
You're doing great.
And you don't numb out.
You don't numb out.
It takes away the funny.
Takes away the funny.
He kills brain cells.
You know, a lot of people don't know how well they're doing.
That's why they need to hear you're doing great.
And even the small things.
Top up of our president?
You know, I don't know his stance on all the issues.
I like a couple of things I'm seeing.
New game.
New game.
When you go on a date with someone, instead of asking like, where are you from?
What is your life like?
What were your grandparents like?
What did they tell you when bad things happened?
The world will end.
But the good news, you can rebuild.
You can.
You can.
I was on Instagram today.
Sometimes I don't always go on there.
And Kunal, our buddy, was on his Buddha in Jeans channel and he was having a live and he was giving his sage advice.
And someone commented about his appearance on this podcast.
If you haven't seen the episode, I highly recommend you check it out.
Check out the YouTube channel.
And he was saying the difference is in enlightenment or in expanded consciousness, is just the slight difference between trigger or moment of activation and response, just expanding that moment.
Tom has that moment.
He's very... Tom is that moment.
He slows.
He's very thoughtful.
And that's what I think the huge biggest difference in you and I are.
We came in with a lot of anxiety season one.
We didn't know what we were doing.
We were new.
Like, who are we talking to?
I came into this world with a lot of anxiety.
Forget about season one.
Yeah, season one.
I mean, when you were born.
And now, you know, I think we have, it's a lot different.
It's a lot slower.
It's a lot more grounded.
I have more hope.
You have a lot of hope.
And I hope everyone else is having hope too.
You're doing great, Jonathan.
Listeners, you're doing great.
From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have.
We'll see you next time.
It's my and Bialik's breakdown.
She's gonna break it down for you.
She's got a neuroscience PhD or two.
One fiction more than that.
And now she's gonna break down.
It's a breakdown.
She's gonna break it down.
