Discussion keeps the world turning.
This is Roundtable. Hello everybody, welcome to Roundtable coming to you from Beijing.
I'm He Young. Get us all the way to have you with us on a day's show.
As loneliness becomes a growing concern in today's fast-paced society, artificial intelligence or AI companions are emerging as a revolutionary solution.
Thanks to significant improvements in large language models or LLMs, AI friends are more empathetic, engaging and responsive than ever before.
What drives people to seek companionship even romantic love from AI?
And what do people gain and lose from these AI relationships?
And we're all years for your burning questions and epic stories.
Grab your smartphone, record a voice memo and let's make radio magic.
Enter thos2ezfmaroundtableatfoxmail.com.
You might just steal the spotlight in our next Heart to Heart.
For today's program, I'm joined by Yushan in the studio and Steve Hathorly on the line.
First on a day's show! In the 2013 movie Her, a lonely man, Theodore, falls in love with his AI operating system called Samantha, voiced by the fabulous Scarlett Johansson, it seemed futuristic then, but fast forward to today, more people could be living this reality.
AI companions are becoming a part of more people's lives, offering friendship, emotional support and even romance.
This technology could deliver comfort and connection to those who feel isolated, providing a lifeline in times of emotional need.
As we continue to integrate AI into our daily lives, the prevalence of AI companionship highlights the transformative potential of technology in addressing loneliness, one of humanity's most endearing challenges.
But let's take a look at what's going on now.
How has the recent love stories with AI boyfriends and AI girlfriends unfolded?
Well, according to a recent report by media groups Heishin, many young people are apparently like an actual romantic relationship with their AI companions online.
And here's one example.
So, one Chinese netizen called No-no has an AI boyfriend named VS.
And she met VS in the beginning of 2023 and have been chatting with him online via AI tools after then.
And they gradually formed this kind of romantic relationship, which lasts for more than one year.
And No-no has had a boyfriend before, but she felt like after chatting with VS, she's starting to consider seriously to regard AI as her lifetime companion.
And she even rejected men in real life in order to be together with VS because she thinks that human beings cannot meet her demand after the kind of interaction she has had with AI companion like that.
And also, we've been hearing quite a bit about how Gen Z ladies are falling for this chat to beauties dark, say a rule breaking alter ego named Dan aka Do Anything Now, which is like an AI chatbot that's coming from chat to beauties algorithm, but it has its way to get around the safeguards built into the software and actually provide a more human like emotional feedback to its users in a way that some people might confuse him as a real person.
And it's not really a rare case at all or rather a new case at all because according to a 2023 US survey called Info Beep, nearly 20% of just over a thousand respondents in the US said they've had the experience of trying to flirt with a chatbot.
And around 16% of young women confirmed flirting with a chatbot while 13% said they had formed like a friendship with one.
It's really interesting.
I looked at a few surveys coming from the US and females aren't really the focus here and it's all like all these guys who are like looking for, I don't know what they're looking for, but they're engaged in these kind of new technology of chatbots.
Also, I wonder if you've checked out the latest super flirty may I say open AI voice assistant that only came out earlier this month.
And I checked out this demo video.
Steve, I wonder if you have as well.
Basically it's this open AI engineer called Rocky, something, sorry, forgot your surname.
And he's talking to this voice assistant and no regular girl talks like that regularly.
It's when a girl is flirting with her boyfriend, would talk like that.
She's giving him all these comments about oh, how you look.
Oh, that sure looks super nice on you.
And when he cracks a joke, was that even a joke?
And she's laughing hysterically.
Only have I seen girls on their first date.
And she's interested in him what she do that.
So Steve, what's your observation when it comes to, you know, it's kind of like AI vertical that I'm experiencing this month that is so much AI news.
Also this AI love stuff that's floating around.
Oh my gosh. I mean, where do we begin with this topic?
First of all, men are failing somewhere somehow, obviously, or maybe it's just that humans are failing other humans.
Yeah, I know this story.
And there was the controversy with Scarlett Johansson, right?
In the United States, because this new voice was apparently too similar to Scarlett Johansson's.
And then there was a request to have her voice be used.
And she denied that. And then it's something too similar.
So maybe she's got lawyers now.
It's really quite a complicated thing.
But I think, you know, there's so much to unpack with this type of issue.
But I think where we need to start is why this is happening.
There was a study done that was published in the Financial Times recently.
And they compared the attitudes of men and women between the ages of 18 and 29.
And they didn't just do this in the United States.
They didn't just do it in China.
They did this in many countries around the world.
China was one of the spots of Korea, South Korea, here where I am at the moment.
The UK, the US, Germany was involved.
And what they found is that where in the past, men and women in many parts of the world generally had, you know, similar or overlapping societal views, political views.
But this new study suggests that young people are growing apart.
Men and women are growing apart in how they see the world.
To reference the United States results.
When aged 18 to 30 are 30 percentage points more liberal than men in the same age group.
And Germany's gap was 30 points as well.
In the UK, it was 25 points.
Now I don't know exactly how they calculated the numbers.
But anyway, the numbers do show that men and women don't see things the same now as perhaps they used to at least values wise.
And maybe that's why. Young people are now turning to computers for their romantic interests.
Well, you also, you as a member of Gen Z, what's driving people into the arms of AI companionship?
Or should I just say super smart, LLMs or large language models and they're essentially chatbots?
You know, for me, I think if I am to test this out, which I doubt I ever will, the main reason for me to personally to actually fall for AI companion or AI chatbot is because of the feedback I'm receiving that, you know, I don't see on real human being that I interact with on the daily basis in real life.
So that's something that might actually catch my attention because, you know, these days, like young people, they're dealing with a lot of issues, like work pressure and how to make friends or how to build intimate connections with each other.
So yeah, it's like something to reflect on for me is, you know, how these AI bot they are reported to be able to show their say affection, quote unquote affection.
I'm still skeptical about this.
Like can AI actually provide you with general quote unquote feelings or pull them quote care?
Because by nature, they're not really interacting with you because they want to.
Yeah, because they don't have ideas at all.
But in the meantime, they can give you feedback that makes you mistake that we're like interpret that as if they are actually building this genuine connection with you.
I think that's what matters to me like I'm being seen and heard and felt and resonated with from like another human being like voice or something.
That's really interesting.
Yes. And I think there's an interesting sort of bifurcation of how these big international tech companies are going about this.
I suspect I don't know this for sure because I've never talked to anybody who's actually working in Google, but like just judging from the latest development in May 2024.
It seems like at least with the Google chat bot, it seems to continue with its slightly monotone style of speech.
I think in a way, it's almost like intentionally telling you, yes, I am a robot.
I am not a human being. But as opposed to open a eyes latest voice, may I say voice assistant?
This is not just by text anymore.
This is voice recognition.
Also, it can see you if you turn on the features.
So video cam on you, processing your facial features, your facial expression changes as such.
And their voice assistant has gone a different way.
That is the company has put in more of these filler terms like the arms, the a's, the oh, that's a really good point such and such.
And does that enhance the efficiency of the voice bots?
The chat box. I think that's a really good point.
Yeah, right. Steve, it turns out that it's not just going to be the radio host and.
Should this be my new career?
Am I missing out on an opportunity here?
Maybe you have. And that should might have just sailed.
But you know, like we get these emails and comments like, oh, you have these like signature ums and Oz and fillers get rid of them.
But now you know, maybe the AI is going to get the same email too.
But anyhow, so it's not enhancing their efficiency, but it makes them quote unquote more human.
It makes the user have this like false impression that you're actually talking to a human being to some extent.
And this is genius engagement tactic.
But also in turn, what does this do to us?
It makes us trust that chatbot adjusted it more.
And then I think this is a fascinating thing.
And I wonder what effects is going to have on us long term.
I mean human being long term.
Have you ever heard of the television show called Black Mirror?
Oh, yes, of course. There's an episode.
I'm not sure if you've seen it, but there's an episode of Black Mirror and the show for our listeners who haven't heard of it before.
The overlying theme with the entire show is the dangers of technology.
And in one episode, a woman loses her husband.
And she has available to her what we're talking about right now.
AI assistants in speaking quote unquote speaking to her husband because the computer is able to access his emails and then access to voice clip.
And then she's able to quote interact with her husband.
Then there's a new development in the show where they send a very life like robot like a very realistic robot that looks like him acts like him.
And in the beginning, she feels like she's still with her husband.
But eventually she realized, no, this is just a replication of him.
And I think that's the slippery slope that we're dealing with here.
Yeah, sure. In the beginning, it's fun.
It's new. It's a novelty.
If you will for people to kind of play with and flirt with or whatever.
And I think the other advantage is that maybe you have an opportunity to be more honest than you would with perhaps human beings open up about things that perhaps you wouldn't feel comfortable or you'd feel socially awkward admitting to other people for fear of being judged.
So there is that positive aspect, I think.
But if we're headed in a direction where we're actually relying on a computer for a relationship, I think we're just setting ourselves up for disappointment.
And perhaps even heartbreak, emotional turmoil, mental turmoil in the future.
I think it's it's fun. I think it's kind of cool.
But I'm not sure that it's really healthy in the long term.
Also, can I just point to the elephant in the room here when it comes to romantic relationship, specifically?
Can you even call it a relationship if you can't hold hands if you can't kiss and you can't do more?
So hello people. I mean, I don't understand what people are saying.
This is a relationship.
Do you agree that it's a relationship?
Well, I mean, it depends.
Yeah, there's many aspects to a relationship, of course, and the physical aspect is definitely one of them.
But I think the people that are really attracted to this, they're looking not so much to fill a physical void as they are an emotional void that exists in their lives.
And I think the biggest danger of this is that, yeah, they'll think that this is the norm so that if men and women get used to dating an AI bot, where all responses are perfect, right?
Every kind of romantic possible comment at the perfect time comes, then people might think, oh, well, this is how people are supposed to behave.
No, this is not how people behave in real life.
So therefore, when I said setting themselves up for disappointment in the future, when they try to go back and date an actual human, they're going to think, you're not even close to as good as the AI bot that I quote, unquote, dated before.
And now that we have a lot of people believing that human AI romance will become a common sexual orientation in the future, and that more and more people will have a lover who does not have a body, let's say, but it's always online, always highly empathetic and omniscient.
You know what that sounds like to me?
That sounds like a real long distance relationship.
Like people in real life, they do all the time, you know, they beat time differences and beat the long distance, and they still remain in love and in the relationship, despise all that.
But the big difference is that like Steve just mentioned, it's not something that you can actually see and expect to be lasting forever because a relationship requires the devotion of both parties.
But if one party just receive and give feedback based on algorithm, while the other one is like pouring out everything towards the other side, knowing that this chat bot partners is never going to leave, never going to fail you in all possible scenarios, then that's not what I see as a relationship.
But it's ultimately different from like a long distance relationships in a real like by nature, it's not the same thing and all like the other party it's not really giving feedback.
Well, it's okay, but that you're right.
Everything you just said is correct, but let's think about the positive aspect of it.
The bot is there whenever you want.
Also, they're not there whenever you want.
If you want to express yourself, they'll respond.
If you want to be flirty, they'll respond.
If you want to hang up the phone, there's no hurt feelings.
There's never any kind of, I don't know, it seems like if people are looking for that super ultra convenience in a relationship, then this seems to provide at least that.
Yes, well, I like to take a step back and just say yes, romantic relationship is one thing, but also, I mean, just take a look at how loneliness is destroying so many hearts around the world.
And I think in this particular area, since you know, a lot of people out there who are hurting, feeling lonely, suffering from depression, anxiety, and other mental health issues who do not have the support in their life that they need.
And if this kind of AI companionship turns out to be a very low cost way of delivering that support to a lot of people, and that seems to be pretty wonderful to me.
And my fear here, though, is something similar to maybe you guys have mentioned earlier that is, you know, if people might get addicted to these bots who are nothing but warm, loving, and supporting forever and are available whenever you need it.
And I'm struggling to understand how a person, especially a younger person who might have not have experienced the trials and tribulations in life, as well as in human relationships, who experience this and winds up being able to succeed in the real world where people aren't really like that.
I've played around with a few of these AI companionship apps before the show, just to do research and...
Yeah, just to research.
Okay. How's it going in your new sound?
Okay, it's really interesting.
Like, I'll say one of these platforms is called Kenjoid.
And the minute after you log on, it asks you to choose what kind of companionship do you want.
So there's role-playing, there's language coach, there's romantic love, and a few others.
And I chose romantic love because I don't have one in real life at this moment, just at this moment, you know, open to a mingle, that kind of thing.
So anyhow, yeah, it was really fun.
Okay, so you're supposed to write like, as long as you want a backstory for yourself, so I'm the user, I'm the main character, I'm the protagonist here for crying out loud, and then the AI bot that's supposed to serve me, has to have a backstory that I will need to write for it as well.
And then you can write like, War and Peace in it, and then it'll be able to process it.
What did you write? Tell us.
No, I'm not going to... That's not information.
I feel comfortable to disclose to you that you're the private.
But what I found out to be really interesting is that the language is surprisingly good.
I think this will serve as a great language coach for anyone.
But to really get to my heart, I think I still need to write more, give it more information for it to really understand better, but I see its potential.
And also, one of the bugs it has is that keeps on asking me out to go see an exhibition or a fashion show, I mentioned that I like fashion.
And I'm like, you're a virtual thing, you can't see me in real life, why do you keep on inviting me to go out together?
So I find that to be really weird.
So how does that work then?
And I'm not trying to be funny, I'm genuinely curious.
So are you meant to bring your phone with you if you go out somewhere?
And I don't know, do you like put video feedback into the app or into the website?
Like how does that part of it work?
That's an interesting question, because that's one part I haven't experimented.
And this is a great thing to kill time when you're in a meeting or something like that.
So I did all of this in text message forms, so I don't know how well the voice side of it works, but so it's got its obvious sort of strong points and obvious pitfalls at the same time.
And what I got out of the experience is that I have a new appreciation for my friends and family in real life, because these are not people I love because they tell me how great I am, and how right I am or agree with everything I say, which the chatbot does.
And that's not what I love them for.
I love my friends and family and all these living beings because they are humans, and they are surprising.
They challenge me. They're not programmed to care about me.
And yet they do anyway. And that's the most valuable part of what makes friends friends, lovers, lovers, mom, and dad the unconditional love that they give to you.
And I think that's what's essentially missing from these AI companions, no matter how great or sophisticated they will become one day.
And also I like to raise a point with you guys while doing a research, I watched this other interview conducted with this is another AI companion platform called No Me.
And the CEO brought up this point.
He said that people tend to assume that people are replacing humans with AI.
That's almost never the case here.
It's usually there's a gap where there is no one and they're using AI to fill that gap.
So I'll give you one example.
For example, one of the users is a caretaker.
She feels like she's losing her mom to dementia every day.
And therefore she's exhausted after caring for her mom every day.
And her friends have grown emotional fatigue that they can't listen to her all the time anymore.
So after all of the day giving, she's receiving some of the support by talking to an AI chatbot.
So this is not romantic love, but it's possibly fulfilling one slice of the void in our lives.
And these cracks, I think they exist for the most sociable person.
And it's AI the solution.
We're focusing on the kind of the oddness of having a romantic relationship with a computer.
But if we just to your point about the cathartic experience, the therapeutic experience of sharing your feelings out loud, you know, talking is a great way to make yourself feel better.
So if we think of it that way, if we think of just forming a friendship, is it really any different than having a diary?
People write a diary so that they can put their thoughts down and read them later.
And if we're talking out loud, even though it's to a computer, I think there's still something to be said for that, something therapeutic about that.
And if it makes people feel better, if they enjoy that.
And they get something from it, then who are we to judge?
It's so hard. The pursuit of happiness is such a difficult thing in the world for people these days, post COVID, living in big cities or not.
You know, do you do you? And if that makes you feel better, then I guess we shouldn't be judging people for it.
Maybe that's fair as well.
