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Hi, I'm Alexa Ray -Corea and this is the Game Maker's Notebook Podcast. Today's guest needs no introduction.
It's Jennifer English.
She just played Mayel in the critically acclaimed Expedition 33.
We talked about her upbringing, her background as a theater kid, how she got the role of Shadowheart, how Shadowheart prepared her for Mayel, and dug into Mayel's development and what it was like playing her.
If you haven't played Expedition 33 yet, if you haven't finished the game, you might want to wait to listen to this one.
But if not, dive right in.
Please enjoy. Welcome to the Game Maker's Notebook, a podcast featuring a series of in -depth one -on -one conversations between game makers providing a thoughtful intimate perspective on the business and craft of interactive entertainment.
The Game Maker's Notebook is presented by the Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences, a member -driven organization dedicated to the recognition and advancement of interactive entertainment.
Jennifer English, how did you get here?
How did you get here in the games industry?
Hello. Hello. Making video games, acting.
How did you get here?
You went straight in there.
Should have been right in the beginning.
There was nothing about Alexa.
I love that. Okay. How did I get into it?
Kind of by happy accident.
I trained in theater and that's all I did and all I wanted to do.
I wasn't interested in anything else I was like I am serious Shakespearean actress and then I realized that I couldn't afford to do theater because it's paid so badly um and so I thought I I like reading I will I will do some audiobooks that can be a nice earner and then did one or two and hated it so deeply but um because I couldn't concentrate for that amount of time and I found it dreadfully lonely and um then I but I I think I just got I think I got a I can't remember how it all happened but I got an audition through from having a voice reel and stuff for um Divinity Original Sin no actually
first it was Augmented Empire which has um Kate Mulgrew and Nick Frost in it and it's a VR game and I played the lead in that and I was like oh oh this is amazing I love this and I got to record with um Amelia as in um uh the narrator of Boarders Gate 3 and um she played my mum and we were in the studio together which is a really rare thing I realize now yeah um and I was just hooked and then got Divinity Original Sin played a bazillion NPCs including ones that have full -on conversations with each other and yeah I got to like practice every accent I could do and I was like great that like this is the best
fun I love it and then Baldur's Gate 3 came along and the the rest is history.
But I am now a baby gamer, and a baby gamer, baby gamer.
And, and have now started absolutely nerding out and catching up on all my adulthood, like the last time of not playing games as an adult.
So now I'm like, fully in it.
And what are you? What are you like?
What did you when you jumped in?
What did you start with?
And what are you playing now?
And so I started with Baldur's Gate 3.
Sure. Wow. That's quite a good game to start with.
Right? And now I'm really expanding my repertoire.
I've been enjoying so much because I've got a Switch now, spent all my money.
I've got a Switch, I've got a Steam Deck and a PS5.
So I'm just like...
All the most expensive ones, yes.
All the most expensive ones.
Yeah. My accountant's like, it's an expense.
expense yes it's a hundred percent an expense um so i'm really enjoying final fantasy nine at the moment um yeah i'm loving it oh my gosh nine you said the magic word yes yes well that was the one that ben starr told me today he was like it was like a personality test and he was just saying this one this is what you should start with so i don't know why but i completely he's right and i completely love it i'm i'm shocked he didn't make you play eight first i know that's an offline story but yes yeah yeah he he loves eight i know that but no he suggested nine for me and he's completely right i
i adore it um and i'm seeing all the expedition 33 influences as well with final fantasy so now i'm like okay i have to play all the final fantasies oh yeah no nine is good and then well we'll talk about it later but i think you should play six next anyway so you're you're a theater kid we have talked on this podcast about the theater kid to game dev pipeline so often it feels like we kind of like end up in here so when you trained for theater like what what kind of training did you do was there any specific like technique you said you did Shakespeare Shakespeare was like yeah so a lot of um as
you probably know a lot of drama schools in the uk it's very classical based so we start off i mean if you start off with storytelling and like i've always said if i wasn't an actor i would be some kind of storyteller it's just that that's the only talent i have um if i could write i would write if i could draw i could draw i would draw but i like i just found this this is very natural to me so So you start off with very basic storytelling.
And it's literally like I am a tree stuff because, you know, that is that is storytelling.
We did Tales of Ovid, Ovid, Ovid.
That's bad. I don't have it.
And you move up. They let you progress through.
So. So then you do, I think, Shakespeare and then you're on to your like string birds and your Chekhov's.
um and yes but it's it's mainly about the voice for the first couple of years like you you do breathing for the first three months um and then they allow you to make sounds like it's it's very competitive and where I went to drama school it was right next to um I went to drama school in Birmingham and that was next to Stratford it's been not far at all and so a lot of our teachers cross -pollinated with them so uh we were going to the rsc the royal shakespeare company every every week and and watching all the rep shows there and just a really immersing immersing ourselves in that and of course
i've done shakespeare once since i graduated and now i'm like i miss it but yeah as i say like theater theater feels quite far from me now i'd love to do it again and saying that I feel like games there's a reason why so many theatrically trained actors do go into games it really lends itself to that and especially because we're dealing with such huge things which also deals with so yeah it's like I would not be able to do the job I do without that for me but without that trick that that training so very lucky that I got to do that is Is there anything from your training that you pull from when you're
preparing for a role or when you're warming up?
Like how does that background serve you?
Everything. So for me, I don't have – there's a lot of actors.
I can't remember who I heard talking about this.
It might have been Cate Blanchett recently.
I love nerding out on hearing other actors talking about their work.
I find it fascinating.
but there are there are actors who have a very specific um like method and they you know they're Stanislavski till they die and or you know Lee Strasberg or whoever it is I I'm a lot more I'm I'm I like tapas you know I like I like yeah like you're mixing it up I like going okay what because every character is different and everything I need to do is different for each character because some characters you don't immediately click with like I certainly didn't with shadowheart and so I really had to dig deep at the beginning um and then i found her and i was laughing but like i really had to find
something for her physically and emotionally um whereas for Mai l I didn't need to do that like like she just she made sense to me straight away and that's not to say that that character i preferred to the other is it's just different it's like choosing your siblings or something but um um although you do sometimes have favorites whatever um but um yeah yeah I mean those two mine are my favorites I'm not gonna lie um and so so yeah every preparation is different I mean I try to my my main thing is I approach every script like a detective so my girlfriend literally bought me a pipe like a Sherlock
Holmes oh my gosh yeah but it's mainly for like ADHD stimming, but yeah.
And I'll sit there and, and it's absolutely ridiculous.
And I do know that, but no, when I go through and I try and ask as many questions as I can and just get to know the character in their timelines and like map their thoughts and try and figure out what's the subtext is.
I mean, that's always my thing is we never say things explicitly you know it's never like even parry it you know which is one of my l's lines there's there's so much going on underneath that there's fear and frustration and it's about going okay what is she really meaning she's not just instructing she's warning or she's she's you know reprimanding you know like there's always something going on behind those lines and that's That's that's my favorite juicy thing to no doubt about.
I it's interesting you say that for Shadowheart that you kind of had to really dig to find her.
That was your BAFTA breakthrough.
Yeah. Yeah. So I would love to like before we obviously like it could go into the weeds and Expedition 33 and spoil it for for Shadowheart.
I want to talk a little bit about your like like what was what's your audition story for her?
because it's your it's your award character so what was your audition like like how did you find her and like how did how did you eventually find her so i didn't audition for shadow heart specifically i was given a pack of all these different races and it was for i was auditioning for npcs in this big game so i had no idea i was auditioning for a lead like i was actually like i I thought it was going to be exactly the same as Divinity, where I just played several different characters, right?
So I auditioned for like a goblin, and I did like my little Cockney accent, because it was a mo -cap audition as well.
It was full bodies, and, you know, tried to find that, and then did something aristocratic for another, and, you know, just like did a mixture.
And then I got a call saying, oh no, they want you for a lead, this will be a year.
there'll be a year probably about 20 hours i remember that and i remember thinking that's loads i'll maybe be able to make my rent um uh over a year and um it it felt like this big deal um but i i didn't really know who shout out what was i got like a tiny description and i think it was something along the lines of she's she's this worshiper she's like very soldier like or like she's a warrior type person um she's very aloof she's quite she's she's quite um guarded and she can be very like standoffish and I was like um have you I'm sorry like you got the wrong person because I'm here like a little
puppy like and I'm usually playing kids as well like I quite often will take play a teenager and very like playful like silly roles so i was like why have i been cast as this as this very stoic woman and it wasn't until i found out more about the story and worked with incredible directors that helped me discover who she actually was and got to read more of john caulker is incredible writing that i understood her but it i for the first few weeks i was like what can i swear yes what the fuck is he like i don't understand and i just felt like a fraud for a very long time and then of course we get
to know shallow as we do in in the game and you go oh yeah no i get it you were right well done yeah well again like congrats on that BAFTA breakthrough is a pretty big deal but we're here today because you are in expedition 33 i want your audition story i want the play -by -play of how you got the role of maiel i want the lore i um yeah i know my girlfriend's like standing in the background looking very smug about this story so i um i got the audition three and read read everything about it and i like you know just to be clear i don't get a lot of auditions i think people saw after boulders gate
three we'd be inundated with offers and i think people think I think that, and it's just not the case, like the industry just doesn't work like that, unfortunately.
But I got this audition through and I was like, oh my God, an audition for a start.
And then I was like, oh, oh, I love this.
And I think we got the, there's some of the artwork through.
I don't think we got the full script at that point.
Can't remember, but I do remember reading the description and going, holy hell, this is amazing.
amazing. I want to be a part of this." And so I got it all through and had a good read and had a good prep and then completely forgot about it.
And it was due for 9am the next morning.
And this is 2am in the morning and I go, fuck shit, shit, shit, shit, shit.
it wake up my poor girlfriend who was asleep in bed i'm in my pajamas and i go darling like i'm really sorry can you just read in for me because it was usually their solo auditions you'll get like a line by line thing that doesn't make sense and you just have to get it this was a really beautiful beautiful scene and i think i'm allowed to say it was the scene between maya and gustav when they're skimming stones so like like a perfectly written scene and um so bless aljona going okay I'll read this part and I just sat on my bed and did it at two in the morning sending it off going yeah there it is it's
on time it was on time and then got an email saying yeah cool come in so that's my audition very unprofessional put reminders in your you're fine, but you can.
I'm professionalist subjective.
It's fine. Yes. Yes.
I empathize with the like, oop, it's due at 9am got to write it at 2am.
So I feel you. I feel you.
So, so you were, you were a just blind audition.
Yeah. I've, I've read the, all of the stories about how so many, like Jennifer said, or again, the writer was found on Reddit.
People were, people sort of found each other online so it feels very serendipitous that you all ended up together for for so for Shadowheart you did mo -capping but for Maelle you did you did the voiceover yeah yeah so and so everything was kind of there when we got into the booth so the beautiful mo -cap was already done um and all i think even the music we got to listen to which i mean as shortcuts go like florianne's music is obviously next level um so yeah so that and all the cinematics all the animations so we just came in and did our job um we had to we had to do it in in time to the uh to
the mouth movements and obviously you know like that had already been done and that is such a delightful challenge because yeah you're not only investing all of your emotions into it and and trying to to get to the emotional heart of things whilst also having this technical challenge of of getting the pauses in the right place and like it is it is acting on crack it it really is hard so um yeah so that was that was a nice challenge yeah was um were you was this one of those games where you were alone in the booth kind of with the spreadsheet of death or did you get to interface like did you get
to record with any of the other actors at all no but we did no recording with the other actors but um it was it wasn't too spreadsheet of deathly because jen had four messages so we got given the script just just before recording and you know it was it was written like a a cinematic script it was written like a screenplay which was so accessible because quite often you do get as you know get spreadsheets of death that just make absolutely no sense sorry about that um but like it yeah the way she she formatted just was really wonderful because i i just read it like i think i just sat down and read
it all in one because it was so engaging and thrilling like i read it kind of read like a fantasy thriller um on paper so um yeah so it didn't feel as sideswipey as some audition audition as some recording sessions do but what was I going to say oh yeah so it was on our own but we quite often I'd say about 50 % of the time depending on who was in first we got to hear each other's performance okay so that was a really wonderful thing to play off someone like Charlie Cox or Ben or Kirstie Ryder like that just feeds into your form you're just responding really to their their beautiful work so I was very
lucky with that thank god so you got so you got the opportunity you you came in and you were recording and they were they had already recorded some stuff so you got to to play off them yeah versus them coming in and kind of like they were first and then you got to come in and build it was about 50 so so about half the scenes um because sometimes I would being first and they'd have to work with the shit that i gave for them no um but um i'm british we have to be self -effacing um um yeah so so yeah it was about is about half the time um which is quite nice to be able to start it without them sometimes
because you're just like well i get to steer this shit thank you very much ben you have to match my tone this time um yeah how uh how long long were you in the booth for my L was it like about it was it a year was it no idea it was it was quite often on so I actually don't know that's a really good question it was over over a few months I remember that and like some you'd have spurts of loads and then and then a little break like as it always is um but it wasn't like solid nine to five for three weeks but it these things never are and it's very rare that I've done like a solid week of of recording
it will be you know three or four a week or something um so yeah I think I think it was over a few months as far as I can remember but then I've got no concept of time so don't trust me on that one uh same how did you how did you prepare once you knew you were playing her and you were getting ready to record like what were your inspirations for her where did you draw from you mentioned that Shadowheart, you did a lot of digging, but Maelle seems like you've really clicked with her.
So what was the prep process like to play her?
I think for me it was actually finding a physical, like even though I wasn't recording the mocap, it doesn't matter.
I kind of approach every role in a similar way in that I find the character's physicality.
So for me it was, even though you don't see it it's finding the way she moves because then that for me informs the voice and knowing that she was younger and like there is a lighter quality to her voice than mine naturally um so yeah it was finding for me it was really thinking through her journey from childhood to where where she is now and and and trying to imagine it's all imagination work right it's it's it's kind of like being a kid in a story in a you know a make -believe game um for a video game you know and so it for me it's really getting her her view on things and her view on life like
Like there's a lot of the work that I do is was based on Actor and the Target by Declan Donlon.
And he he talks about kind of we can't change ourselves, but we can see how our characters see the world.
So, you know, for me, my I'm looking at my yellow chair there and that is a chair for reading and comfort.
and that that is something cozy but someone else might see that as something awkward and uncomfortable brings back bad memories you know so for me it's about finding how Mayel sees this world that she lives in and and her relationship to everyone and and her her relationship to the events that are happening and you know I find it it's completely helped by this magical writing um of of Jen and Guillaume that that there's such a humanity to her there's something so unsentimental at the beginning that I find really fascinating where you know she's talking to Gustave right at the beginning and and she's
just like okay Sophie's dying today that's that's just a fact for her and that is not how I would be because I cry all the time so it's going okay okay, like, like, she sees that situation completely differently to how I would see it, I would be on the floor crying, because that's who I, how I see the world, like, I feel things very deeply in that way, like, where she wouldn't because of her previous circumstances.
So it's just, it's, it's just finding, finding those differences and finding, yeah, that perspective, essentially yeah well it's interesting you say thinking about her her childhood because technically she has two yeah that makes things complicated yeah so so you mentioned you know you you tend to play a lot of younger characters so you're playing essentially not just a 16 year old girl you're technically two versions of a 16 year old girl so knowing that that's your process how did you find both of them Mayel and Alicia like how did you differentiate how did they grow together like where did
you find that I kind of had to see them of two sides of the same coin like they they do feel completely different to me but also of course we know that there is like this core but again it kind of goes back to those perspectives and their perspectives while they still have this inner core soul, which is, as far as I'm as an actor considering, it's kind of just me.
Like I kind of have to see myself as that core thing.
Because I can't fully change who I am as an actor.
I always bring myself to the role.
So that That is that kind of inner column, as it were.
But they see the world very differently.
And so they did feel very different.
And I'll be really interested.
So I'm up to the end of Act 2.
So I will be so interested to see it in the game as a player because I find that that really changes my perspective on my own performance.
Really? Oh, completely.
completely because I find it really hard to remember quite a lot immersed in it as a performer and then I go oh shit what did I do and and so I'm I I find it hard to I don't know whether that's an ADHD thing or just a gen thing but I find it hard to remember a lot of of of what I've done in the booth and so I'm really like like, okay, I'm going to see this now.
And I'm going to go, Oh, yes.
And but, yeah, they I do remember that they they, they feel entirely different.
Because they are they've lived, like, even though, as I say, that core column is the same, they've lived entirely different lives.
Yeah. So, um, and obviously, there are similarities, but I feel, even with that, there are there are like key differences to who they truly are um and i i find that like heartbreaking and beautiful in equal measure that you know the same can be said for anyone that you go like if you had a different different circumstances your your vision of the world would be different and you would behave it's probably behave in a different way maybe i'm wrong that's kind of how i'm seeing it at the moment in this point in time in my life um um especially in regards to like privilege or you know childhood circumstances
or um you really see how how that shapes someone's view of the world and so yeah i mean this game is just full of that like the like i don't know about you alex but like playing it i'm like questioning everything in my life like it throws these huge philosophical questions at us um and we've had just the best discussions at home from it and I think a lot of people are having those questions and exploring those questions so I'm loving it it's I to get a little personal on my expedition 33 experience so I identify very strongly with Mayel I have a very fraught relationship with my parents at this point
in my in my life and my mother is definitely the catalyst so this idea of sort of the my the mother creating an alternate reality in which everything is okay and she has control of the situation but it's all kind of spun out of her grief and you don't really you don't really she doesn't really know how to interact with with Alicia Mayel so my mom doesn't really know how to interact with me and so I was playing that I got to the end of act two into act act three and i was just like is this fucking play about us like is this like it's like shit like what is this um no i think it's i think we are at a at a point
in history where i think globally a lot of people in our our age group can identify with you know the way that parents behavior affects them and how to deal with them and you know they think they know what's best but we're were growing up in a world that's so different from the world that they grew up in so I am so uh just so complimentary of the writing um and the way it all spins out and it was very emotional I had to put the controller down and walk away and be like oh boy but yeah I think it's I think it's beautiful did you when you were when you were recording was it sounds like was most
of the script already written or where Jen and Guillaume still working on it?
How did you interface with them?
What was your collaboration like with them?
So the recording process was...
Thank you so much for sharing that by the way.
And I think that as wacky as it sounds, we are all storytellers.
Every dev on this, as technical as it is, even if they're fixing bugs in the in the combat like that is still part of the storytelling process and yeah all everyone wants is to create stories that people like either have a like have a relationship with you know whether that's like cathartic or or like a level of understanding of themselves or you know like or inspiration like and i just i think that's beautiful so thank you and thank you um throw the throw the laptop in gratitude um um so the collaboration yeah so they were there the entire Jen and Guillaume were there the entire time yeah um
that is in person that is so rare I've never I think one other game I think the dev I've done the devs have been there but But nine times out of ten, they might be on Zoom or they might just not be there at all.
And I just think it's such a testament to how much they cared about it that they were willing to fly over to the UK, stay in a hotel or Airbnb or wherever it was, and be there for every session.
Wow. And it was a fast recording process.
It was really fast. and you had to bring your a game to every every session and I think if I was less experienced I'd be fucked and truly but um it was a very like it was so it was really collaborative and and even though they both had a very clear vision they were very flexible and if I go I really don't know if she would do it like that I really want to try it this way they would both go yeah absolutely give that a go and sometimes it would work and sometimes it wouldn't but a lot of the time you don't get that you you you it's it's sometimes people are very much it's my way or the highway and we
also had Joe Joe from side who who was directing as well and it was just this really safe intellectual emotionally intelligent space um and and it was full of humor and passion and love and it was it it was one of the most creatively satisfying things i've ever done because of that and that was their choice and you know they they invited the cast a lot of the cast to dinner and took the time to get to know us and who we were as people and like to feel valued and respected like that when quite often because because games are usually on a larger scale right it's very rare that you work with such
a small team so they were they they could do that but um whereas some games you just can't and you've got teams that are in you know far away and and you just don't have that level of communication but they just made such an effort and it it just led to brilliant work I think because when people are there injecting that love and positivity of course you match that I certainly do um and yeah it was it like joyous it was just joyous start to finish I loved it so it sounds like you had you had some well quite a bit of input in how Mayel developed I think so it's hard to it's it's it's a really hard
one to judge especially when something is so fully cooked worked I hope I did I mean I was really lucky that Charlotte who did the the mocap made similar choices to what I would make I think I would I'd really struggle if she was doing something physically and I'm like no that wouldn't work like that doesn't work she wouldn't fall down at this point she would stand up or you know and I was just I was truly lucky with that because I I could kind of go with her and and and like it kind of felt like a dance you know like I was kind of my voice was dancing with her body and her face and um and and I
could just kind of go with that like water and so yeah that that was really lucky I don't I like it's so hard to tell how much of an influence I had, but like I just had to bring myself to it and my authenticity, hopefully to it and just get to the truth of Jen's incredible words.
So yeah, it's so hard to tell.
It's so hard, I can't really answer that one.
But like, yeah, I hope that my truth and my acting, my emotions and my like love for it hopefully that that influenced her um just as it did for adeline who plays the the who did the french french vo but like yeah yeah so no that's so lovely i love something you said it's your voice dancing with her body and her face i think that's such a beautiful like a very beautiful way to put it but i know exactly what you mean Yeah, when you say that, that like collaboration.
So you've a lot of times as a writer, we don't we don't get to be in the booth with you, whether that's like time, or it's just like the way things that shook out.
So for you, having had this incredible experience, having the writers close at hand, for all of the people listening who can do that sort of thing, like what would your advice be to writers that want to come in and like, physically work with, work with you?
actors like what can we do to work better i think absolutely do it i think jen yeah jen and guillaume being there was everything because if i had questions about the character they were just there with those answers because they knew their characters so well and they knew that's that story in that um that world so well I I think it should be an expected thing not a rare thing um because it is this juicy juicy creative room and I think quite often um the the like I have experienced it before where the the acting the actors feel like the last cock and it's just like like oh like that'll do like
put that on top at the end and I think it like now I think people's relationship with the acting of games and we've certainly seen that with Baldur's Gate 3 like it is such a core component it's not just the last bit that you tap on at the end um and I think as much attention should be given to that as the animation as the the um as the levels you know like i think i think if you want an rpg that shines if you want a story that shines then then that should be your focus um or a huge focus and i do think writers should be there even if it's like not an expected thing just ask because most of the time
people want the the game to be better right yeah and the answers will want you there I think sometimes people like I don't know knowing knowing some writers um are often quite introverted or like in their own head and think or like I won't be useful you will be useful you will be useful there like even if it's just to ask answer questions like you don't have to control the whole thing you can can trust the process but like the amount of times that I'm like why is she saying that I don't I don't understand and when you haven't got the writer there you've just got to make it up and quite often you're
like at sea and then you've got a less certain performance you know like it really affects things so please be there please we love you I love I love hanging out in the booth myself.
It's definitely something I like to do.
Did. So I'm going back to my L's personality and it's kind of like the dueling, the almost a dueling dragons, the kind of like dueling past you're an act too.
I was going to ask about this very, this thing that happens at the end when you have to make a decision and her she kind of goes two ways when you were preparing when you were finding her and preparing for kind of that moment because it's essentially I imagine for Shadowheart where you had to sort of you had to to record all these different relationship options like Shadowheart developing in certain ways depending on you know the player choices how did you approach preparing for these two scenes because those are very very the two ending options the scenes are very very strong like you and ben
acted the shit out of those so i'd love to know more about those i think it just i think that the key thing for us as actors is to never judge don't know why i went really midlith absolutely there never judge um um we can never judge our characters i mean you can i'm sure you people do but like for me anyway like Like it's, it's about going, no, that is absolutely what they think is right.
And I think regardless of the choice you make, like, like that is, that is the intention.
That is what they, what they need in that moment.
And, and so, yeah, like, it wasn't like I was there going, that's a bit of a shitty choice, actually.
I'll teach you that um so yeah I just kind of approached both in that with the same kind of not tenacity that's not quite right the right word but the same like kind of certainty um and like as in of intention and and what that scene emotionally needed um and it yeah it was just just about connecting to the truth of either situation.
So kind of, like, the same, like, I don't know, I didn't go, right, OK, I'm going to do this differently.
Like, I just kind of went with it.
Yeah, both were difficult, though.
Like, the acting challenge in this has been, like, phenomenal.
Like, so much, like, deep emotion.
motion and as I said like the the the speed at which we went at yeah like it just meant that there was no second guessing there was no like I either had to dive full in or I just wouldn't have done the job I did do you know what I mean like I wouldn't have done like something that I was proud of like I just had to fall head first and it was terrifying especially afterwards because you have the biggest vulnerability hangover and even now I'm like did I fuck it up did I did I ruin it like because like I think because I felt so close to my L getting really personal but like I felt so close to her
and I connected to so much of her that a lot of the time like those those were just my emotions right like it was a very cathartic recording experience and like when she's crying I was crying um it like that wasn't a fake cry like I was crying and I was like connecting to part of myself and I think because I just allowed that it was just it's like when you open up to someone new at a party and you're a bit drunk and the night afterwards you're and morning afterwards you're like oh I feel really vulnerable it feels like that and it that that vulnerability is still ongoing um and especially at the end
direct too like I remember coming away way just being like oh people are going to see that and that's just me um that's me connecting with myself and obviously it's not Ismael but like I can't I can't hide who I am I can't I can't I can't fake that I wish I could it would be a lot more pleasant for me probably but like that is that is me just spitting my guts on the floor and then millions of people at least two million people have seen that it's like minimum minimum two million people are you are you comfortable sharing what parts of her you really identified with um yeah i'm gonna look um um
a lot of a lot of the grief a lot of grief um and a lot of the loneliness um and and feeling out of place i universal themes like i doubt anyone's not experienced loss or feeling lonely or feeling like a an outcast and especially at that age and i think i a lot of people go to me like oh you must be fed up with playing like younger characters and i'm like no because i feel like there's still part of me that like feels like a 15 year old 16 year old still like that still and and i think jen's writing and guillem's world like like there's nothing about her that feels shallow um and obviously she's
not because we we've got that as you say there's like dueling sides but even my l is pure my l like she's so complex as we are as teenagers i think we we all tend to look back nostalgically sometimes and go oh yeah life was simpler then no it wasn't do you remember how much pain you felt it was bad it was bad like i would never go back there um and you know like i like when i was younger than my elbow like as a teenager like i was i was bullied and i found life just very hard very very hard and as so many like you know i'm not on my own there and i'm not like a giant victim here like a lot of us
did and i think a lot of us in the creative world and and And in gaming, I feel like that is not an isolated experience at all.
And it was quite frightening to go back there in a way because like, yeah, there is that kind of push, like that kind of flashback feeling as an actor as well, where you're like, oh, I remember this and this hurt.
And on the other hand, it was incredibly cathartic to go back there and and to relive that and go no you're fine now you're safe now you're you're in a really lovely loved place and all is good but you know it's still as i say it's still hugely and i like i don't know i feel like actors don't talk about this and then maybe i'm just a sensitive sally which i am i fully am i had like three cries this morning but why because my book was sad okay it was a really sad book um but like yeah i am i am sensitive but like i feel like a lot of actors don't talk about this but it hurts sometimes to go into
those places and and and that's okay and sometimes that's healthy to feel those feelings um i always think it's healthy to feel feelings don't suppress them sometimes it feels nice to suppress them yeah it's good uh it's good creative fuel i can i empathize a writer on the other side very much empathize finding all those feelings in your writing and also being a teen girl is a horrific experience that horrific i never want to i would never want to return to willingly never never there was a really good film that I was watching oh I can't remember and I was like yeah no it's awful never go back
oh I think I saw the TV glow and I don't know if you've seen that film but fantastic highly recommend it um and yeah and that that kind of again that that feeling of of yeah isolation not knowing who you are and especially as a like young queer person as well and you're a diverse like yeah it's horrible but but how wonderful that we can explore that through art and stories and we can all connect to that and and things so yeah yeah well done jen thanks thanks for joining me um yeah no for i literally i beat beat the game.
And I had therapy the next day.
And I spent my entire therapy session talking about this game.
So my therapist was like, oh, I've been trying to get you to learn this for two years.
And you just play one video game.
And now all of a sudden, oh, okay.
Now you understand.
Now you get it. Thanks, livestock.
The cool thing about Expedition 33 is you have this, we have this, this wonderful teen girl angst. And then we have women in their 30s angst. So it's like, both uh both the most difficult parts of my life I get to play through both at the same yeah so so incredible um this is such a sidebar question but who are you romancing can I know I like so kind of both at the moment I know I turned down I turned down CL twice because I'm like um yeah like and it's really hard because I'm like she's just like want to sleep together like no because i wanted so i think luna but luna like that's a bernie bernie
slow burn and um so i'm like is it gonna happen like have i played my cards right um yeah no i feel like with cl like she's still she's still like emotionally processing stuff and i feel like i don't know i'm like i don't want to take advantage of that no no hates people who are romancing cl she's fine but like i'm like no i'm not getting near that whereas i feel lunae i'm like i really like this i really like this thing interesting interesting lunae is very like mother like to me she's like mother so i was like oh i i don't know but ciel i think it happened by accident i didn't realize there
was i went into exhibition 33 blind so i accidentally like locked myself in with ciel because she was just like you want to have an adventure and i was i was like fuck yeah let's go i'll do it whatever whatever whatever happens happens i didn't realize it was gonna go that far but i was just like oh okay okay those camp scenes are my favorite thing like when you unlock a load and i'm like yeah do i want to do i want to spend time with cl yeah i do like i just i get so excited about them um they're so beautifully written but luna being being mother she is so mother and like I am like I'm all like
universally in love with Looney right like she's but what's really beautiful she does remind me of Jen Jen Yen a lot Jennifer said and um uh so it's like this weird thing of being like if it's Jen like she reminds me of her so much but um uh what was I gonna say no I all I was thinking about was do I've I've unlocked um two hairstyles for Lunae and I'm like yes which one do I prefer though like it's weird like how deep and complex and beautiful this game is and then you're also equally excited about the hairstyles and the combat and you're like but I haven't unlocked that weapon and should I go
back and get it and you know I love the depth of it all and how you can swap from one thing to the other it's so wonderful I love that you have to save the world but you can also have a baguette like on your back like I love it Verso has a we're like we're going into the patron scene like we've just we've just met her done the fight where you can't meet her and like it's all so serious with his baguette on his back and his little black sunglasses incredible incredible I love I love when games do that when it's like everything is on fire and the world's about to end but here's your little accessories
and here's your little hairstyles i love it i love it so much i remember watching um like i wanted to watch my before we started playing the game i wanted to watch some of my shadow heart scenes and i found like and i think i wanted it for like a reel or something so like i found a really beautiful scene i think it's like her talking about her parents or something and she's just got clown makeup on like i poured my heart and soul into that i put my hands all and she's got fucking clown makeup on brilliant perfect no notes 10 out of 10 game of the year did this is such a hard pivot back but i wanted
to ask what was the hardest scene for you to record the end yeah okay yeah um yeah yeah yeah that felt like a lot of this game feels quite um like greek tragedy not in a ridiculous way like in a kind of ancient human way in a kind of yeah and and like having to get to that huge emotional place um i'm not talking like the end scene i'm talking the bits leading up to the end scene um yeah and that like getting to that like depth um it's not something you're asked to do as an actor very often like you're not watching I don't know succession and getting to that level of like I don't know like like
almost primal emotion yeah and that is the beauty of games I like like when do you when when as actors do we get to do that like uh it's it's it's a beautiful beautiful honor um and yeah but it it was it was like of course hard and and hard to shake off um um so yeah it would be that for sure yeah yeah hopefully not with a baguette on her back that i think that you should add that scene to your real but there has to be the baguette i so now that you have you have shadow heart baff to break through you have this beautiful game under your belt that i am looking into the not to nostradamus this too
much but just seeing like we'll be seeing a lot of expedition 33 at award season uh this year for sure um what what would like what is next for you what would you like to do what kind of character would you you like to play?
Where do you see yourself going from here?
I think I'm really lucky to play protagonists.
And I think I'd like to be given the chance to shake that up.
And I played this really wonderful character called Carlotta in Withering Waves.
And I had no idea it was Withering Waves when I got this audition.
I just got this character through and i was like oh my god she's fantastic but part of her um hopefully this isn't too much of a spoiler but like she for those wishing to play it but like there's there's a there's a like a shadow side of herself um which is very dark and twisty and and deliciously dark and i really I really loved that, and I'd love to play that, kind of, sort of, not Shakespearean William, but like, someone who enjoys themselves a little bit.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, I think I play a lot of - yeah, I play like, oh wow, I play the leads.
but like you know I I like it's very much the heroes and so I think I I would like to play something something far from that and and just really enjoy playing with that but like even just doing stuff that isn't in my own accent would be would be really nice um I I used to do a lot of of accent work and especially in Divinity and um yeah I don't I I don't get those auditions through yet and so I would like to I'd like to play with play with just different different sides of myself I suppose um but you know I'd love to do a kind of southern I don't know someone from like Appalachia or something
do you know what I mean like someone but I thought also like I've done so much fantasy and I think I'd love to you know I love fantasy fantasy, but I'd love to try something else as well and you know, do a zombie apocalypse or you know, like different, I'm saying that I love fantasy, so it's really hard to not be drawn to those roles and just go like I fit here.
So yeah, I don't know, I just I think I've been really lucky in that all of this work has found me like I've never like like everything kind of has not fallen.
Like it's taken such a long time to get to this point.
Like it's not like, like, you know, fighting off all these offers, like I have I've grafted, but then a lot of that is is, um, luck and, and privilege as well, you know, like I'm from a family that, that, um, really invested in my creativity and really celebrated that.
So, you know, that is a huge privilege in itself.
And so I can't remember where I was going, but basically, like, the work has kind of found me and games have certainly found me.
So, yeah, I'm hoping ones that kind of shake things up a little bit find me too.
Yeah. Yeah, we'll see.
But I tend to not go for stuff too much because then I think once you've got it, you're like, well, now what?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. that's good that's good uh good advice and for everyone listening that's uh some antiheroes some villains yeah for you yeah here we go she's available she's here um thank you thank you so much for chatting with me today and being so open about mayal and bringing yourself to this role i really appreciate it and i'm excited to finish the last three percent of this game Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you for a lovely interview.
It's been gorgeous.
Thank you for joining us for the Game Maker's Notebook.
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