The single biggest predictor of life satisfaction, it was not fortune.
It was having strong supportive relationships Whether that came in the form of family or friends that feel like family as we're spending the hours of our week how do we Engage to cultivate those relationships such that they are strong and supportive and that they have the longevity So it's absolutely worth the time It's just making sure that at the end of the days at the end
of the weeks at the end of the years at the end of your life You have those strong supportive relationships So what does it mean to be time poor?
We have all heard the old phrase time is money usually in the context of work and productivity But the thing is time isn't just about money.
It's about happiness and health and life and how we use it and the feeling like We actually have enough of it to do the things that really matter is everything Problem is According to a study by Harvard Business School that analyzed two and a half million Americans Many of us actually experienced this thing called time poverty or this Chronic feeling of just having
too many things to do and never enough time to do them And I think most of us are emerging from the last few years with this newfound awareness and appreciation for how we spend our time and A desire to make our time here on earth really count time is precious and it's also our One non-renewable resource.
I mean when a dollar is spent you can earn another when a day is gone It is gone for life So how can we move forward making sure we live more intentionally and spend our time wisely so that we won't have regrets in the end or at least Fewer regrets maybe my guest today Cassie Holmes has done incredible research on making the most of the world's most precious resource time
and I am super excited to tackle these big questions and ideas in this important and timely Conversation with her so Cassie is an award-winning professor at UCLA's Anderson School of Management and her Fascinating work on the intersection of time and happiness has been widely published in leading academic journals and featured in places like NPR the Economist
New York Times her new book happier hour how to beat distraction Expand your time and focus on what matters most it gives readers a blueprint to Reframing their time and overcoming time poverty and in our conversation today You'll hear us dive deeper into this notion of having too much to do and too little time and how to distinguish between What matters and what doesn't
when it comes to our time and what to consider and do if you want to lead a more Intentional and happier life How do we utilize a time we do have to make it feel more expansive and Really helping sure that we are allocating it towards the things that genuinely will fill us up So excited to share this best of conversation with you.
I'm Jonathan Fields and this is good life project Well, we got a minute.
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of my own experiments. I'm actually we're having this conversation.
I am Two days post of one month creative sabbatical so at some point that make very find its way into This conversation as well because a lot of the reasons that I did it and what I was looking to accomplish and then what actually happened To tie's in I think a lot with a topic of a recent book and of your work So we'll maybe dive into that a little bit and share as needed, but I'm
excited to hear Yeah, it's it's you like that old phrase like we made plans and God laughs that was basically The month But Yeah, I mean a lot of interesting stuff happened The notion of how we spend our time is deeply fascinating to me because and you write about this and speak about this You know, it is the one resource that I'm available aware of at least where it's
perpetually depleting and non-renewable almost anything else I think of you know like you can think of okay So there's a way to refill the tank, but not time.
Am I wrong with that? No, it's absolutely right And that's why it is so critical to be thoughtful in how we invest it and spend it along the way because time that you have spent that just passes by without thought without intention and Really actually it comes to that experience of it being wasted is so painful because it is this resource Not only is it ever passing and depleting
But it is the substance of our life and those hours that were spending Add up to the days the weeks the months the years and ultimately the life that we're living and so when These hours passed by with it feeling like it was wasted in whatever You know sort of form that comes whether it was spent on something That wasn't fulfilling whether it was spent on something that didn't
come to fruition that you were investing something that actually didn't Pan out it is absolutely painful and there is actually research that suggests that Wasted time is much more painful than wasted money and I think for the very exact the exact reason that you mentioned Because it is forever lost it can't be regained Yeah, I mean when you talk about regrets I know
you talk about this to a certain extent I know you don't work around regrets years ago We had Bronny wear on the podcast who's you know like five regrets of the dying became this very early viral phenomenon Dan Peng's recent book where he did some really fascinating work on reggae, but this notion of Time spent poorly or wasted as as a source of regret later in life especially
It just seems like there's such a profound connection there and regret is one of these things which is Kind of lingers on us.
It's like this weight that just kind of walks with us through life And I feel like the later we get into it the more it weighs on us because we realized you know We've got less runway ahead of us to actually trying to figure out how to quote make up for it if it's even possible And it's interesting because we don't think about it until later That the sort of this avoiding
regret as being a Motivator or driver Until we're actually thinking about life regrets of at the end of it all because that's ultimately the most painful right if at the end of this life where you absolutely don't have an opportunity to Fix it Um then that's something that people are very aware of trying to avoid But I would also say that the pandemic has taught us by showing
us just how fragile Life is has made all of us irrespective of age much more wary of regret and much more Intune with how should I be spending and investing So that and who knows when that end will come So that I don't feel the regret and what's interesting and I you know I talk about this uh in the book Is based off of others research that the type of regret that shows up is really
interesting Like the ones that we're really looking to avoid are those ones that are so sneaky of Seeping into how we invest our time so there's two forms of regret.
There's the Regrets acts from acts of Comission where you do something bad and you wish you hadn't like I said something I wish I hadn't said it.
I took that job And it didn't turn out right.
I wish I hadn't and they're painful But because they're painful and it's very clear.
Oh, I wish I hadn't said something then we fix it We fix it so while it initially very acute We fix it along the way but the Other form of regret that acts of omission that I didn't say something and I wish I had I wish I had pursued that job and I didn't That's sort of more insidious because There isn't something so acute to sort of fix it and those are the regrets that tend
to Show up at the end of life and those are the ones that I really hope that folks are thinking about and that's You know the intent of my book is to and my work overall is how do we make it so that people don't regret That thing of like if only I had Payed attention along the way to those relationships if only I had invested in those things that really matter to me If only I had
said thank you if only I had said sorry It's that that I am really hoping to help people avoid by and interestingly in my work well Very potentially sad of thinking about the end and thinking about this sort of finite nature of our lives It's from recognizing that we actually Spend our hours better.
We are more intentional and not only in selecting the activities that we engage in But also how we engage during those times And so we can talk about that absolutely because I think it's so important To take this broader perspective of time thinking about years and life overall To inform how we spend our upcoming hours So agree with this and I think as you mentioned
the last couple of years Have brought so many people who are just kind of like going about things Yeah, like life is happening.
It's kind of we're tumbling forward and like the days are full We're without even really thinking about it And reacquainting us all with the notion that oh like This actually could end at any given time And I think there's there's such a cultural bias Against letting your mind go there sort of like in western culture.
It's like no no no no Don't ever think about that thing that is the one guaranteed event That will happen in your life after the first guaranteed event of your birth You know like don't ever talk about it don't think about it You know only plan for it when you're sort of like at a certain point in life And think about it only in terms of what happens if there are assets But
don't actually think about how you like the fact that at any given moment in time like We're not promised anything.
We're not promised tomorrow And I feel like you're so spot on in that the last couple of years one of the Deeper changes has been people thinking about this people Either going through their own um scare and making it through or Losing people very close to them and their family.
I mean I have a friend who lost her dad and her brother within a matter of like a couple of months together And how can it not though if you were ascension being put yeah even paying the slides to matter of attention How can it not make you think huh?
This could happen anytime and With whatever time I do have um, how do we use it wisely?
Yeah to your point I think there is a lot of And I also do agree that it is somewhat cultural Fear of thinking about death or me it's like it's so taboo and I think that that is born out of fear of like Oh, I don't know quite how to reckon with it But it is so important and I actually have So the book is based off of a course that I developed and have been teaching To our MBAs or executive
MBAs and I have them do these assignments One a very poignant assignment that I have them do towards the end of class is actually to write their own new ogy so projecting forward assuming that they do live a long life How do they want to be remembered?
What do they want people to say about them?
What life do they want to live and interestingly?
One of my students came to me because these are assignments So there is a grade attached and she's a super conscientious student.
She's like I'm really sorry professor I can't do this assignment thinking about my death just Invoke so much anxiety.
I'm gonna forfeit the grade and I was like don't worry Let me reframe the assignment right about the life you want to live Because honestly, that's the exact same assignment and It's such a powerful one because What it does is it By sort of thinking towards the end of your life and then thinking back as like okay What's that life that I want to Have lived and be remembered
by what impact do I want to have on other people's hearts and minds?
How do I want to exist and people's Memories in my you know, what's my legacy?
What that really does is it's not actually an exercise about death.
It's absolutely an exercise about life Mm-hmm, and what life do you want to live?
And from that is born a lot of clarity as to what matters like what ultimately matters Taking you out of the sense of urgency and reaction in the day to day and makes you think about These bigger goals, you know, what is that purpose?
What are those things that I ultimately want to achieve?
What are those and oftentimes, you know, it's actually the relationships?
That we have you know like how do I want to show up in the world?
And from that it's actually really empowering because it is this Sort of kick in the pants of like well actually that life that you're talking about and thinking sort of decades Um sort of projecting forward That's the life that you're already living so you know, don't wait Start living it and the research shows as well as seeing it again and again as Folks do these
types of exercises that it is so impactful and it makes it so that we don't waste it makes it so that We won't look back and feel that regret Yeah, no, so agree.
I've actually done that exercise myself and like literally sobbing while writing um And it really it just brings you back to what like what actually matters to me Uh the fast so fascinated too because you're doing this with with students like in the L.A.
Often MPA students yeah where the mindset is okay entirely focused on GPA like the sort of like Instant immediate temporal indicators of quote capitalist success.
You know, it's your GPA.
It's your rank. It's you know Like how well connected how can I land like the perfect summer internships so I get the offer to come back immediately after now I just step in and start building like my power and my career and my And which okay like these things matter You know, but when you zoom the lens out across like a longer time horizon of your life And you can you can place
them in perspective. I mean, I would imagine that with certain students There's a huge perspective shift even in the moment to say okay, so like I still want to do well in school But big picture like there's something much like this is not the end.
I'll be all Yeah, but also and it's not too belittles some of their immediate concerns of like what internship or what job 100% it actually even clarifies that it's not this sort of general notion of like quote-unquote success Which is so hard to strive for because it's so multi-dimensional and not all of those dimensions actually matter to each individual person But
when you realize like what life do I want to live then it's actually very clear It's like oh, that's the internship that for me Will sort of be that first step in this You know in fulfilling my purpose or that's the particular job That I really want and it's so helpful because then it helps my students sort of Not go with the flow of like oh everyone is applying for consulting.
I should too or everyone You know is looking you know for that finance job to get the big bucks I should do that too Instead it's like all right, it's I know They're actually still you don't know the exact stones to step on to get there But at least you have a very clear notion of what your goal is and therefore Type of stone to look for and it will be likely very different
than when your classmates next stone So I think that it helps in so many ways it sort of helps folks shit like shed that Competitiveness with each other because not all of them have the same goal.
It makes them much sort of clearer in The sources of motivation and intrinsic motivation that will be satisfying to them and field rewarding to them And it also takes away from that clarity It minimizes the sort of fear of like oh my gosh, I need to be successful And it's scary if you don't really quite know When or how to get there, right?
but it's It's much more assuring And also it takes away that pressure of like it's okay That first job out of school isn't the end all be all there's actually going to be lots of jobs along the way That form your career that form your path Um, and so also from that relieving that pressure that ending every decision is like That you know, so like gonna determine the course
of your life It's like okay, there's there's actually some room for change along the way Yeah, no, love that and we'll be right back after word from our sponsors I have a secret I wore the wrong foundation for years then I discovered ilmakiage their AI powered quiz makes it so easy to find a perfect match Customized for your unique skin tone undertone and coverage
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home a big focus for you in terms of your profession in academia, but A lot of this it sounds like started in a very personal way And like in the world of academia itself has this sort of like prescribed pass to quote success You know like you get in you start out and you publish your parish and then you go out and speak and then you're consulting and then And it sounds like
you were you were traveling that path and part of the reason that you Really sort of like switch gears and devote yourself to a lot of these these ideas Was your own sort of like re-examination of like what exactly is happening here in my life?
Totally and thank gosh because it totally determined actually in my research um agenda Which has again like been so fulfilling in terms of like relating it to my student It's like once you figure out like what's really driving you and you're getting there and you're you're having these little like clear Indicators that like oh you actually get like having the impact
that you personally that matters to you Well then it's like that's that's satisfying.
So yes, so it started and I share this story to open the book um Which was a very personal story As well as I think relates to so many people and resonates um and this was when I was Earlier in my career as an assistant professor at Wharton And where absolutely I was driven to publish as much as I could give the you know important talks to show that I was having an impact in my
field And in this particular case, I remember this Dave so vividly um I was so I was living in Philly because at Wharton And I had gone up to New York that day to give a talk at Columbia's business school About my latest research and this talk Um was sandwiched with an these back-to-back meetings and then I like didn't even have time to eat lunch because my talk was during you
know Lunchtime so the audience was eating lunch and then I'm like whisked to the medium like eating a like a sandwich on the way with crumbs Whatever like it was just like rushing and then I went to this colleague dinner and then rushing To the train station to get the very last train that would get me home to my form on bold And my husband who were asleep at the board in Philly
because it was late in I did make the train that night, but I remember so vividly as I was sitting In the seat and I was sort of slimmed over I had my coat pulled up over me like a blanket and I was just so depleted and exhausted and sort of felt broken and as I was looking at the window His the darkness was rushing by I was like I don't know if I can keep up Between the pressures
of work wanting to be a good parent wanting to be a good partner wanting to be a good friend The never-ending pile of chores.
There simply were not enough hours in the day To do it all let alone to do any of it well And let alone to enjoy Any of it along the way and I was like I want more time Not just so that I could get more done But really I wanted more time so that I could slow down And actually experience life as it was happening like I wanted more time so that It wasn't all passing by in a blur and you
know we talked about regret So that at the end I wouldn't feel like intense regret for my life having Past in that blur and I know now that from my research I was suffering from what we refer to as time poverty This acute feeling of having too much to do and not enough time to do it and it is prevalent like it's not just me we've conducted a national pool That should that nearly
half of Americans feel time poor they don't have enough time to do All that they set out to do and Though moms tend to feel more time poor than dads and working parents tend to feel particularly impoverished You see that all types of people report feeling this way even those without kids Those who aren't working for pay and part of it is cultural But part of it is also just
that we are driven To produce and to get things done and maybe that's where the cultural Notion comes in it's like This rush towards efficiency and that often is what sort of time management is like how do you get as much done as possible In the shortest amount of time It's all about checking stuff off the list Which doesn't account for your experience during those
activities So like your experience and the time that you're actually spending along the way and so At that point I was like oh my gosh the solution having more time is to quit And I very much considered quitting my job Not very seriously, but the daydream was like and then I'll move to Sunny island somewhere You know and have all the hours of my day to spend exactly how
I wanted Because you're just sort of imagining how you feel on that beach vacation It's like if only I had that always Then surely I would be happier and actually I did not quit and I went on to test would Are people who have a whole lot more time?
Are they happier and this is work with Some of my colleagues help her field and Marissa Sharif to look at what is actually the relationship Between the amount of discretionary time people have and their happiness And we conducted a bunch of studies including analyzing data from the American Time You Survey Which looks at for tens of thousands Of working and non-working
Americans how they spent a regular day And from that we calculated how much time they spend on discretionary activities And the pattern of results we found was consistent across our studies Which basically shows an upside down new shape So Happiness goes down on both ends of the spectrum That is too little discretionary time is bad That is that feeling of being
time poor That is my experience on the train that night I just didn't have the hours in the day To spend in ways that I wanted And with that higher level of stress you see this lower happiness and greater dissatisfaction But what was interesting was the other end of the spectrum Where it also went down that is there's such thing as having too much available time And This is important
to know for those of us in those like crazy hectic days of like the answer actually is not to quit everything You know when we have to that sunny island Because and the digging into our studies were like why Why is it that there is such thing as having too much time And what it turns out is that we are driven to be productive That is Spending all the hours of our days with nothing
to show for them And this isn't a day on vacation.
This is your regular life It undermines our sense of purpose We are averse to being idle And with having too much discretionary time and spending in ways that It's not clear that it's worth by all that it's Then actually it starts to feel like a waste And there you get the dissatisfaction Now notably It's not only paid work that are activities that contribute to our
sense of purpose Also volunteer work Engaging in hobbies that enrich us and like build us and help us Grow and learn But I recognize for me My work was a great source of Purpose and so I did not quit and instead actually Shifted my research to figure out and actually importantly also in the pattern of results It goes down on both sides of the That upside down you but the top
is actually flat There's a quite a wide range in which It's flat there's no relationship between the amount of discretionary time you have And your happiness and what that suggests is that accept at the extremes It's not about how much time you have available It's really about how you invest that time So like for happiness it's not about being time rich It's about making
the time that you're spending Rich and that is what I have been doing in my research And when I'm relaying Sort of developed into the course and now in the book To Help people based off of the results the empirics How do we invest that hours of our days So that Time feels rich that time feels worthwhile so that at the end of the day or at the end of the week Looking back It's
not that depleted Exhausted unhappy state that I felt on the train and instead even if it's actually looking back and feeling Fulfilled and satisfied so that has been sort of From my own personal experiences you said Sort of driving my research questions and agenda And then also I've been applying it like what I find I live And I have absolutely benefited from it
And I can say that still actually to do this day I still have that Pressureful job.
I'm an academic no longer an assistant professor I've sort of made it through the ranks and a more full professor But I still have that pressureful job.
I still have now not only one baby, but now two kids I still have my partner whom I want to you know cultivate that relationship I still have the friendships.
I still have the never ending pile of chores So the context actually hasn't changed but I feel fulfilled and satisfied because I am applying these insights to spend and invest that hours of my day on activities that feel worthwhile I am When I'm spending that time I'm in it.
I continue to have to remind myself because you know I'm like all of us like I'm a doer.
So I'm it's very easy and I have the tendency like so many to be thinking about what's next You know, I'm planning for This week is Thanksgiving and I am hosting my entire family So I'm like thinking about like okay, you know like when do we get the groceries?
When do I set the table when do I like all of that stuff?
But if I'm always thinking about what's next Not only does it pull me out of this conversation, but when I'm with my family, you know like this is a Such a wonderful time and opportunity to stand with my family who lives across the country And here we are all in the house together But if I'm in my head planning for and coordinating for and thinking about what's next Then
I'm not I'm missing these moments that I had been planning for Yeah, it's like that double-edged sword, you know, it's like I often wonder if That wiring that so many of us have for productivity is you know It's part pathology and part blessing Yeah, it's like it keeps us moving forward it keeps us thinking about like you know Like what's that thing that's gonna give
me a sense of purpose that I can devote myself to and make manifest in the world And at the other time like you were just sharing It so often pulls us out of the present it keeps us so future oriented that sort of like So many of us have so much trouble just Taking a beat in any given moment and being like oh, this is what's happening This is what I'm feeling.
This is what I'm thinking like right here in the here now And this is the only moment where I can live You know where I can actually feel and be Use the word happiness a number of times and I start like a base of your research And I have seen the word happiness and subjective well-being use sometimes To mean different things used to mean the same thing my understanding
has always been That um Well number one.
It's not the easiest thing to measure um these different things and there are a lot of different definitions for them But you know, I've looked at happiness as the snapshot and subjective well-being is the movie Where it's like you know, you can ask somebody in their 80s You know like are you satisfied with the life like are you satisfied with the way your life has gone?
Has it been meaningful to you and and they'll say like yes, you know like it has been a deeply satisfying life But that same life could also have been deeply unhappy There could be tremendous sustained loss or pain or suffering or illness or grief So if if on balance you looked at that life and ask them like on balance were you happier?
Were you more often happy or not happy That very same person who said I've lived a deeply good and meaningful life may well also tell you It was less happy than happy And I've always been fascinated by the distinction between the two of those and the and the often conflation of the two of those I'm curious what your take is on that.
Yeah, and I'm glad you asked Because as as you noted when people use these terms oftentimes They're using it to sort of encapsulate different things or to relate different things And so I to be clear when I'm using the term happiness I am referring to What the literature refers to as subjective well-being so That includes both that feeling in our days so how much Joy
Positive emotion versus negative emotion.
Do we feel in our moments?
But it also includes this evaluative component how satisfied are you about your days?
About your life overall And also meaning is yet another construct which is Sort of also evaluative it encapsulates a broader uh, it's more cognitive right?
It's like finding the meaning this source of making sense of in about the time that you have spent and about your life overall Now yes, you can pull out So sometimes people are referred to happiness just as that emotional like how I feel in the moment And then like contrast it with the sense of satisfaction about and yes, there are some Instances where you can feel positive
in the moment But it doesn't then translate into a general sense of satisfaction But if you actually look at the data they are far more related and we think so we actually analyze data Global data looking at tens of hundreds of thousands of actually data points of expressions of happiness and the extent to which people feel a sense of meaning in their life And we see
that they're so highly poorly.
It's like a point eight That is high they move together When we feel happy if I ask you how satisfied how meaningful is your life you tend to see people report it more highly when people feel like their life has meaning and a sense of satisfaction and then you ask how happy they are They feel happy because that is important contributor actually the the single biggest
predictor of having a sense of meaning is feeling happy But as you noted there are these instances where they don't converge that a moment Doesn't necessarily get picked up in this broader evaluation and sense of meaning and Particularly for sense of meaning there are also some negative experiences that can contribute to it now the question of When do those negative
experiences turn into meeting meaning versus just breaking you and leaving you unhappy and Satisfied and it is the extent to which you can Learn from it and grow from that negative experience to Develop this narrative of how you've ended up better from it and I also like also I think it's important and when I'm really sort of Proposing both in my research and in the course.
It's well-diss in the book Those moments that both bring you joy and that give you that sense of satisfaction That contribute to your sense of meaning and we talked about the the role of attention So if we're spending those moments these happy moments say like for the example of with your family over the holidays If you're not paying attention to them Then it's not going
to get picked up in your feeling of satisfaction in your sense of meaning and so we have agency And not only how we spend our time and how we Mentally engage and mindfully engage in that time We also have agency on what moments We're going to bring into our evaluation of our life is satisfying our narrative of What is my life all about?
So it's both an attention story as in actually I would love to sort of touch back to What we were seeing before of like those moments that we're spending For example, you know with our family over the holidays and since we're all so Achievement oriented thinking about what's next.
I think it's really important and I share our strategies to do this to actually Take us out of that doing mode So that not all the time as you said like our doing is what helps us be like accomplished things and And you know fulfill these goals even that we set out for ourselves But if we're always in that doing mode then we miss out on a lot of our life We miss out on those hours
and so I share strategies to make sure to help us remind ourselves In crucial moments to actually turn off that doing that thinking of what's next So that we can actually be in the moment savor those times and have it get picked up In that sense of satisfaction in that overall narrative of who we are and the life that we Want to be living and then ultimately will be living
and one of those exercises is actually sort of Again, we're talking about like the finite nature of life and thinking about life overall is actually counting times left And so one of the things like there's so much potential joy in our ordinary Experiences and in my work we found that older people tend to savor these ordinary experiences more because They realize
that life or time is finite and those times are precious and so they pay attention to them But if at any age were reminded of that finite the limited nature of those Experiences then young people also savor more and it's understandable that these everyday sort of ordinary experiences Don't draw as much attention Because we expect that they will continue to happen
every day But to the your point at the very beginning of our conversation time is passing These things will not continue happening every day and they won't continue happening in the way that you Experience them and enjoy them now times change and so If you count the times left so as an example one of my great sources of joy in my weeks is my coffee date with my daughter
and she is seven and This is time that is just 30 minutes where and we've been we we turned what was a routine into a ritual So this was started four years ago when I was sort of on my way to drop her at her preschool Next to my office and wanted to stop at the coffee shop to get coffee to get caffeine, right But it was something that was very functional and something we were doing
every week We shifted it and we framed it as a ritual.
So this was our special time.
We gave it a name. This is our coffee date And we had our coffee date and we still have our coffee date plain, you know Playlists.
So with the particular songs that we listen to she gets her hot chocolate I get my flat white you mentioned quissons and this is time where it's just the two of us Being together and that's the point of it and that's the specialness of it Now this happens every week and so it's like It would be very easy for in particularly the busy weeks, you know Us in our doing mode for or me
in my doing mode to be like, oh, you know This is a hectic one.
Sorry, Lida. I don't have time this week meetings You know, you have you've been invited to a birthday party, you know What all this other stuff that sort of fills time it'd be very easy not to spend this time But I calculated so counting times left first the first step of this is like once you identify an activity that brings you joy Count how many times have you done
this in your life thus far?
So I calculated for Lida and mine so weekly over the last four Years and then in addition over my maternity leave I would sort of bundle her up and take her to the coffee shop with me every day Because we could be on the house to the coffee shop was my sincerity So I calculated that we have had about 400 coffee dates together so far Then the next step is to calculate how many
times will you likely do this in the future accounting for the fact that Circumstances in your life will likely change Accounting for the fact that if your joyful activity Involves someone else that circumstances in their life will likely change And so I calculated so Lida is seven now when she turns 12 I suspect she'll probably want to go to the coffee shop with her
friends instead of me So it will be less frequent than a week.
I will have this sort of you know fight for my my time with her And then she's going to go out to college and then she's going to live you know across the country You know she's everything like I was And so then our coffee days are going to be relegated to these visits You know, and then we have to negotiate with that and brother of like us going off by ourselves And so I calculate
we have about 230 coffee dates left And then the last step is to calculate of your total times what percentage do you have left?
And I realized that we have 36 about 36% of our coffee days left Less than half and she's only seven years old And so what does that make me do?
It makes me protect the time you know, so I no matter how busy a week is Even when there is a birthday party invitation Everything that says like nothing will fill this half hour this time is protected for the two of us But as importantly not only making the time is how I engage during that time Recognizing that There are there are only 36% left you know What that makes
me do is turn off that doing mode you know like that That thinking like my to-do list in my head of like what's next that I'm not thinking about because This is the time In my life like it's happening now.
This is life. This is the stuff that matters and while not Immediately seeming urgent.
It's absolutely by recognizing that the time left is limited it makes it urgent so A lot of the issue with how we engage in our time and spend our time is Driven by urgency irrespective of importance So as tasks come in we are just reacting to what is Presented to us as urgent and a lot of it seems urgent You know when it's coming in from someone else Like through email through
texts through projects through deadlines Through all those requests like will you serve on this committee?
Will you you know bring this text like all is It's never ending the reclut incoming requests And that makes it feel urgent, but it is ignoring the level of importance of that activity and that's actually touching back to What we were talking about before why it's so Helpful to think about life overall to write that eulogy To clarify what is important so that That is at the forefront
of our mind Not just the the mere urgency of it like some of these things you know importance and urgency go together But in a lot of cases importance like my coffee date with my daughter is so important But had I not counted the times left doesn't it seem urgent it seems so available like family dinners when I My kids now I you know seven and ten like that happens Most you
know days of the week and because it happens so frequently it's like oh There's no urgency.
It's like we will you know have dinner tomorrow night But there's only going to be a matter of time before they start having their like activities where they're not at home at dinner time And we're not sitting down together and then let alone you know like when they're going to be at friends houses when they're going to go After college like that same sort of county
and so By recognizing just how important these sort of seemingly mundane and ordinary and accessible things are It makes us engage It makes us spend the time as well as it influences how we spend that time Yeah, it also compelled you to create a bit of a sacred container on that time also yeah You know as you describe the difference between a routine and a ritual it's
like this becomes a ritual where And part of the ritualization so often is like you do the things to be more present You do the things to be less distracted you know like devices probably go air go on silent motor You don't pick it up unless you know like something is really truly emergent and we'll be right back after word from our sponsors Hi, this is Sloan Stevens from the sincerely
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This is Brook to Vard from the naked beauty podcast and this is sir John and you and I both share this in common We love a good pair of sunglasses.
Oh my god. Oh, yes, even as we go into fall a good pair of sunglasses can reset the whole mood glamof lodging You know, yes, and for sunglasses shaped you find yourself going towards like more circular or angular I love like a little bit of a cat eye.
I know it sounds crazy. I try to push the limits when it comes to a generalist profile I will tell you sunglasses hat has amazing customer service you can get frames engraved in store They can switch up lenses and make them prescription for you They can help you find a gift.
I always get amazing service when I go there So get yourself a great pair of shades for every shade of you Hi there.
I'm Amara Jones an award-winning journalist and founder of Translash Media I'm sure you've noticed that our political landscape is an absolute dumpster fire That's why I started the mess Amara's guide to our political hellscape to process the headlines from a trans perspective and to try to have a good laugh in it all And I'm heading to the Democratic National
Convention where I'll be bringing you daily analysis of this historic moment So head on over to Apple podcast to subscribe to the mess see you at the DNC A lot of what you've been talking about also is Distinguishing between what matters what doesn't matter and then choosing what matters Building the container around that so we can really be present in that Framing
it in the context of our life and understanding that we have a limited amount of time to do certain things And maybe we end up having more time and that's like bonus time which is awesome, but don't always assume that But a lot of what you've also been speaking to there's a really strong relational component to the way that that we spend our time And I know this is you know
like part of your work part about other work that I've seen You know when we think about like well, what are the things that we can do to spend time better?
And you talked about a sense of purpose There's research around nature and flow and acts of kindness all things that you you explore But the notion of being with other people who you want to be with Yeah And in a way that I guess jaz with whatever social wiring you have Is so central to the question of how do I spend my time wisely?
Yeah, I mean our relationships that sense of connection Genuine connection and it doesn't come Just from like all versions of socializing so time tracking research Looking at how people spend their days on what activities as well as how they feel over the course their days You can researchers look and sort of pull out what are those activities that tend to be the most
positive Both satisfying as well as enjoyable and those that are the least positive and from that you do see that socializing And as well as physical intimacy are Again and again and and on average the most positive But what is make important to know is that not all versions of socializing are positive like you can absolutely I can absolutely think of like occasions
Where I'm with other people and it is not fun And so I think it's really important for folks to identify for themselves What are those Times and ways of engaging That are the most satisfying that are the most fulfilling that make you feel most connected and One of the exercises I encourage folks to do is actually to track their own time And so over the course of a week
write down your activities as well as how you feel coming out of it so that you can look at Like oh these are those activities that are most worthwhile And you might pick out commonalities across your most positive activities So I can say like for myself My happiest times are actually in one-on-one interactions and that spans like both with my family As like the coffee
date with my daughter that's one-on-one.
I love my date nights with my husband Like that is time where we get to fully connect and then like I have the Putting my son to bed that sort of like our conversations before we turn out the light That's that's the time that is feel so connecting also with friends like I get so much more satisfaction in these one-on-one interactions where we get into that sort of deep
conversation That's you know disclusive and Comforting as opposed to like group settings which you know oftentimes are fun But I it don't walk away with that same sense of fulfillment But also it happens in my work hours as well like Like spend it like truly connecting with a colleague On research idea or even interpersonally that is you know like so it doesn't just
have to be in the personal sphere and Recognizing for yourself like but through the time tracking and and summer of action is like okay What are those sources of true connection for you?
That are the most satisfying that make you feel connected because Then that informs how you construct and how you sort of schedule years time your social time in particular to make it um as satisfying and impactful as possible and That social connection is so important and I know I mean thinkers across across domains across time have all pointed to Just how fundamentally
important that sense of connection genuine connection that feeling of belonging I mean looking even at maslow's hierarchy of needs At the bottom of the pyramid it is those physiological needs like yes We need to be healthy.
Yes. We need shelter. Yes.
We need food But then very next level the most basic psychological need not physiological need is a sense of belonging and if those connections that sense of connection is fulfilled then Great you sort of climb up that pyramid towards a sense of personal confidence and ultimately self-actualization But if you forfeit Sort of those connections while you're striving
towards your personal pursuits Then it's not that's not satisfying and and there is that feeling of dissatisfaction sort of at the end of the day And you see this like come up in so many different ways both in folks eulogy You know like as I mentioned now I've seen so many students eulogy That it is those relationships That ultimately matter even looking at research
of the Harvard study of adult development is so fascinating so it followed this cohort of Young men in Boston some of whom are Harvard students others whom were not Over the course of 75 years Looking you know touching base with them and being like what are they doing over the course?
You know and how are you doing and how are you feeling and what they found at the end of these lives Which were very varied the single biggest predictor of life satisfaction And it's not again like you know talking about terminology of like did they feel happy along the way But feeling satisfied with their life overall It was not Fortune nor was it it was having strong
supportive relationships Whether that came in the form of family or friends that feel like family It's those strong supportive relationships and so he and with this broader perspective That closes into as we're spending the hours of our week How do we engage Not like sort of carve out the time as well as engaged during that time To cultivate those relationships
such that they are strong and supportive Um and that they have the longevity so it's absolutely worth the time And it does require an investment of time, but it's it's worth it now I will also note that you know I talk in the book and the research points to other ways of spending time that are really important That don't involve others And some of them like very purposely
that that time to think that you sort of are uninterrupted so you can get into flow Or or just to think and like sort of protecting time for that so you're not reacting to you know And like sort of responsive to others Exercise Yes, you can make it social that exercises a really important contributor to our Emotional well-being physical well-being, but you know like
in our happiness um So it's not like All of our time you know is about relationships that there are it's just making sure that At least some of the time is invested such that at the end of the days at the end of the weeks at the end of the years at the end of your life You have those strong supportive relationships Hmm, so agree like in relationship to a really important um
and so are the things like you can spend your time well In solitude And that might also just be being outside.
I know you write about this as well like being immersed in nature like There are all sorts of ways to just like spend it better um and it may be better You know for you if you're outside or in nature with a friend or somebody you really care with but it also is a pretty good If you're alone, I'm like it's we're having this conversation.
I'm both a Colorado and And looking out past my screen right now.
I'm looking there's a window and there's the front range of the Rockies And I hike in there, you know three to five days a week almost always alone And I always feel that it's time really beautifully spent and I'm sure I'm happy to like be out there with a friend if they happen to be available But I'm equally happy just being out there doing the thing You know being outside
and being in nature The notion of of time tracking like taking a week to actually track your time is fascinating to me also and I wonder If there's a phenomenon that's similar to what happens in the nutrition world where you go to see nutritionist for the first time They're like okay, like let's set up our follow-up appointment next week and between now and then I want
you to keep a food lock And what inevitably happens and a lot of friends who've been in that space is People change their behavior really quickly Just by keeping the food back because they start to realize oh Wow So that's what's going into me and like without anything else than any other guys are just like Wow, I never realized I just need to make some shifts and like
you know I'll make them in a more and more in a way when I go back and talk to the person, but It creates so it starts out like the first day or two being sort of like what it you know has been for years And then by the end of a week It's like a completely different diary than it would have been you like had the person just been kind of like randomly thinking about what they were eating
for a week I wonder if you see it's similar phenomenon with with people who track time for a week.
I absolutely do and it it's so great because it's It's simply the intention out like that that realization of like Holy cow, I'm spending so much time on on these particular ways I don't even matter so much and I had no idea I was spending that much time as well as because in the time tracking Not only you know are you writing what you're doing which can itself have an effect
But you're also rating how you felt coming out of it right right right and that's actually quite Illuminating it's like particularly among my students like I have no idea I was spending this much time on social media And they have this notion of like oh, this is fun time.
This is me time But if they look at like looking at their own own ratings not me being like social media research has a bad feel But they see themselves are like I actually don't feel great like I when giving it a four on a 10 point scale and so Just in those initial days you see the change and then I actually also have my students do this over the course of two weeks as a sort
of more complete Capturing of all their day-to-day activities and you see Ships so I have them calculate how much time do you spend on particular activities?
And there is a change from week one even to week two like I think the change even starts in the initial days But once you're tracking that is shifting how you're engaging because what it is doing is making you more intentional It is okay.
These are activities that are wasteful and again like not me being the judge of what's a waste of time but For the individual being like I'm spending a lot of time on this I don't enjoy it that much and it's not necessary So it's a it's a clear opportunity to reallocate that time Towards those other activities that you've identified are absolutely work well Hmm love
that and I feel like This is probably a good place for us to come full circle as well in this container of a good life project If I offer the phrase to live a good life what comes up?
to spend in moments of joy with those people that are so important and making those moments joyful Hmm.
Thank you Hey before you leave if you love this episode safe that you'll also love the conversation we had with Tim Ferris about being present An intentional in life You'll find a link to Tim's episode in the show notes This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and me Jonathan Fields Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez Christopher
Carter crafted our theme music and special thanks to Shelley Del for her research on this episode And of course if you haven't already done so please go ahead and follow good life project in your favorite listening app And if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable and chances are you did since you're still listening here Would you do me
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That's how we all come alive together until next time on Jonathan Fields Signing off for good life project You
