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Go to audible.com slash richgirlsummer Hey everyone, welcome to How I Built This Lab.
I'm Guy Raz. So normally in this slot, We have an episode of the How I Built This Advice line, which will be back next week.
But today... We've got an update to a story we told a few years back and we'll put a link to the original interview in the show notes, which is well worth hearing.
Anyway, you might remember the interview with Daniel Hoom, the legendary chef at Eleven Madison Park in New York City.
In that conversation, he announced on this show in 2021 that he would no longer use any animal products at the restaurant.
I think we've all been able to take a step back and sort of reevaluate. and in a way maybe be a little bit more thoughtful also about the impact to our surroundings and the way we have sourced our food, the way we're consuming our food, the way we eat meat, it is not sustainable. that announcement rocked the world of fine dining.
Why? Well, because 11 Madison Park is one of the most iconic and celebrated restaurants In 2017, it was actually named the world's greatest restaurant.
It's been awarded three Michelin stars every year since 2012.
And when Daniel made that announcement, many people thought he was crazy.
Up until that point, Michelin, which, as you probably know, is the most influential force in fine dining. had never awarded three stars to a purely vegan restaurant.
Eleven Madison Park changed that and became the first ever purely plant-based spot to win the coveted three-star designation.
Now to put this in perspective, it's estimated that there are 15 million restaurants in the world.
But fewer than 160 have three Michelin stars.
In the US, there are just 16. And EMP, as the restaurant is known, seemed to be blazing an important trail.
Because even though these fine dining restaurants account for just a small fraction of food establishments, they have outsized influence on the industry.
Sort of like how you might see a video of a Paris fashion show and wonder, who wears that? only to see a version of it in H&M a year later.
EMP was Famous for its lavender-glazed duck and butter-poached lobster, it served the finest foie gras and caviar.
But overnight, Daniel and his entire culinary team had to essentially relearn how to cook at the highest level. without demi-glace and butter and cream or anything that came from an animal.
They visited Japan and discovered all kinds of new ingredients, things like ton-
Buri, which is a seed from a cypress tree found mainly in Japan that tastes and feels like caviar.
They had to learn how to make pastries and laminated breads using only plant-based ingredients.
But the move didn't come without some controversy.
Plenty of people in the industry perceived the move as political.
And some longtime patrons felt excluded, like the restaurant was just for plant-based eaters.
Some of that pushback was hard for Daniel.
He insists he never even imagined people would see the move as anything other than a creative show.
And, of course, it did have an impact on the restaurant's bottom line.
New York is a very expensive place to run a business, and it turns out working with just plants is also more expensive because it requires more staff and more work to turn the food into something spectacular, which is what EMP managed to do night after night.
It's still hard to get a table there. But to make the economics work, you need high rollers, patrons who are also drinking expensive bottles of burgundy and champagne.
And those patrons, especially in New York, almost always want some meat as well.
So after a lot of thinking and reimagining, Daniel Hume and his team decided to evolve once again.
Vegetables will still be front and center.
90% of the menu will stay plant-based. But a few non-plant based items will come back.
Daniel wanted to return to the show to explain his thinking and why going plant-based has fundamentally changed everything about his cooking forever.
But first, I asked him to go back to the reasons why he went plant-based in the first place. after becoming the best restaurant in the world and having had Three Michelin stars for a decade.
We reached the number one spot in the world.
And I started to feel a little restless creatively.
I felt like I was sort of going in circles when we created our dishes. it felt we were repeating a lot.
We did the lobster with leeks and then we did the lobster with...
But they're not squash. But it was sort of like...
As a creative, it didn't quite feel like groundbreaking.
What should have been... The Wey mountaintop felt a bit empty.
And the hardest part was from that moment on, I no longer knew what was my North Star.
And so... After the pandemic, I wanted to build to restaurant and our cuisine without using any animal products.
I want to just break this down for a minute.
First of all, here you are in your early 40s having mastered cooking, the art of cooking, right?
And all of a sudden, I'm assuming you did not know how to make something that tastes like butter without cream.
How to... do these things. You literally had to relearn how to be a chef.
To me, that... there could not be anything more exciting.
Also, I think there's so much magic in the cooking It's almost like alchemy when you can transform a carrot into a luxury.
I think it was really important to have such boundaries to really... excludes any animal products to push this creativity the way we have to find the answer of how to laminate a bread, how to make a butter with sunflower oil or how to make A ricotta with almond milk.
How to make caviar out of a tree. How to?
From a tree. Yeah. I've tried it. Don't worry.
Yeah, it's from the cypress plant. Cypress, yeah.
And it is... Yeah, I've learned tamburi, which is also referred to as land caviar. but it's something that is used in Japan mostly in the Zen Buddhist cuisine.
And so we discovered So much. Things you didn't even know that existed before.
That's right. I'm celebrating my... 20 year anniversary at Eleven Madison Park beginning of next year.
And so a quarter of that time, the restaurant has been fully plant-based.
And our cooking has completely changed everything about the way you think about food and make food has changed We will never revert back to butter glazes, chicken stock, the demi-glace, it's fundamentally changed because we have learned in some ways to make things even better.
We started our own farm upstate. which we would have never done if we would have not been so focused on the vegetables.
One of the things that I think is important to point out is that I don't believe you were trying to send a message to the world saying, don't eat meat, stop eating meat, stop eating animal products, restaurants should stop serving it.
That was not in any way what you were saying.
You wanted to use the vehicle, the restaurant, as a way to encourage people to think differently about plants.
Is that fair to say? I mean, you... you were not condemning the consumption of meat.
I mean, in this case I believe My naivete was an asset.
The naivete to make the decision to go plant-based.
Yeah, because if I would have known all the things... that I know today, I don't think I would have had the courage to go down this path.
Our decision created a global debate that far transcended food.
And this is something that we were not prepared for.
For a lot of people, going to a plant-based restaurant isn't a choice of cuisine. but it's like a life's choice.
And with this change, some of our guests felt Exclude it. they had the feeling of not being welcome anymore.
That it was just for vegans. Yeah, yeah.
It's not like, oh, let's have Korean food tonight or let's go to a steakhouse or let's do plant-based tonight.
Yeah. And that's what you thought this was going to be.
Absolutely. Oh, it's just going to be another – type of cuisine.
Absolutely. Let's get a French food tonight.
Let's go to a Persian now. The thing about plant-based or vegan is that Most people think of it as a lifestyle change shift that you is you're either that or you're not.
It was almost like a political view. And I never intended to be part of a political debate.
We just wanted to cook vegetables because It's better for the planet, and we love the creativity that it brings. the restaurant you know, got some outstanding reviews, also had some really harsh reviews that was tough on you and the team.
But, Were you surprised at some of the backlash?
Some of the backlash from people who were genuinely angry at you and at this decision.
Well, in the early days, the experience inside the wall of the restaurant didn't match sort of the incoming And I think that, to us, was confusing.
And also, we felt so empowered and satisfied by the experience and by the learning that we just continued.
And then, Slowly, things started to turn around.
I remember sort of early on the cattle rancher from Texas and he sent me this long letter.
And the letter was sort of like he decided for his 40th birthday to have dinner at 11 Madison Park, a fully plant-based restaurant, as a cattle rancher.
And he said his wife was confused about that decision. but then he said as the meal goes on and he's eating all different types of asparagus the morels and the spring onions and he's realizing that he is having one of the best meals of his life, if not the best meal of his life.
And so that conversation really interests me because now we're really having a conversation.
So I think all this was very motivating for me. because I do believe a restaurant has the power to make an impact in the world.
And this is definitely something that continues to be our North Star.
When we were invited to the Mishnah ceremony in 2022, I was unsure.
If you would retain your three stars. What would happen?
Were you nervous that night? I was very nervous because I knew how crucial it was. and how much of a milestone this would be In the world of cuisine, there's never been a restaurant. that receive three-dimensional stars with a plant-based cuisine.
So... Mishnah created fine dining, the rules of fine dining.
They're the Guardians. Yeah. of this very classical way of cooking.
And that night when it was announced that that we are the first restaurant to receive three Michelin stars, it did feel like. were walking on water.
Do you... I mean... From a business perspective, right?
There's a lot of pressure because you aren't just the chef, but you're the owner.
Yeah. and you manage a team of like 200 people, I think.
It's a huge number of people who depend on you and the restaurant for their livelihoods.
Were there moments over the last four years where I don't know, you felt, I don't know, not up to the task.
Did you have self doubt? We definitely saw a dip in revenue because the audience we're catering to became a lot smaller.
And we've learned that cooking plant-based is more also dependent on the seasons.
In the spring and summer, it's an easier sell.
In the fall and the winter, it's harder for people to wrap their head around it. it's selling less wine.
And wine, you need to sell a lot of wine. in order to sustain a restaurant.
I mean, you're in Manhattan. The rent is high.
Salaries are high. It's a big staff. It's a luxury experience, you do 100, you serve 100 people a night, right?
And even if you're fully sold out every night, for months and months and months and months, which you have been, it's not enough to sustain When you don't sell the wine.
When you're not selling the wine. And when you don't sell your private events, which are like... events for 30 or 40 people.
It's very hard to have people buy into an event when you don't have a signature roast.
And does only using plants require more labor, higher labor costs?
Our labor costs went up by like 20%. Like it requires more cooks to bring that magic to the carrots and to the onions.
So yeah, it's gotten harder. from a business perspective, And our guests at times have put us in this box.
Our goal at the end of the day is to welcome people around the table. and everyone is welcome around the table.
That is the highest purpose of a restaurant, if it's what's on the plate or what's not on the plate. keeps people from coming. then that would be devastating and we would be missing our mark.
And when we listen to all The Feedback We believe that it is time for another change.
We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, Daniel explains for the first time his next big step. at 11 Madison Park.
Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz. You're listening to a special episode of How I Built This Lab.
Hey, welcome back to How I Built This Lab.
I'm Guy Raz. So four years after shocking the world of fine dining by turning his three star Michelin restaurant into a 100% plant-based operation?
Daniel Hoom says it's time for another important pivot.
I understand now that for most dining at a plant-based restaurant, is more of a life choice than a choice of cuisine.
I feel incredibly lucky that I've had the privilege to see this creative endeavor through for almost five years.
But I've made the decision now that it's time for another change.
And starting in October, we will reintegrate a few animal products such as fish or shellfish And yes, we will bring our duck back, our honey lavender glazed duck.
We've always listened to the feedback and what we've heard is that to be the most hospitable version. of our restaurant today is to offer a choice.
Our use of animal products will be deliberate. with the base of our cuisine staying plant-based. and offering individual experiences to some of our guests' preferences. so that we can welcome everyone around the table, the whole family.
Thank you. You came to a decision to reintroduce some animal products, right?
Was it hard for you to come to that decision or did you feel like, you know, I tried this thing?
And it's changed what I do, how I think, how I cook. and this is the next chapter of that.
Because inevitably, You know this. People who hear about this and find out about this, they're going to be some people who say, oh, it failed.
This experiment failed. It was a process of course to get to this point.
Because when we made this decision, we dove all in hard.
And we had to. You have to really firmly believe of what you're doing and where you're going, otherwise it feels disgenuine.
And that was very much where I was at in the pandemic.
I wanted to create the first plant-based restaurant that received three Michelin stars. and the voices around me were like, this is not going to work.
This will fail. People who were your friends and supporters.
Yeah, people had a lot of doubts. We created a new language.
We created a new cuisine. We wrote an entire new book called The Plant-Based Chapter.
It's fundamentally different. Right. We have over 200 people working in a restaurant that serves 100 people.
The Martians are razor thin and it requires for us to be Full all the time.
It's the only way. you can maintain this level and this team.
Yeah, but it is possible. We just got to continue to also have that hat on.
It's not just a creative endeavor. It's a business.
And I think if we want to continue to... be part of the conversation.
It has to be sustainable as a business. Do you think that – like I think the analogy would be like –
Because a lot of people ask me, they'll sort of say, well, why are these sort of Michelin three-star restaurants?
A lot of people talk about them. Very few people dine at them.
Many more people eat at a red sauce Italian place, right?
Yes. But the reason they're important is because it's sort of like why is the runway show in Paris important?
Like we're not all wearing that. But we will wear things that are inspired by that in a year from now.
We'll find them in Main Street shops. And it's similar with fine dining restaurants.
They sort of set the tone that trickles down to food.
I mean, inevitably, right? They're going to be...
All kinds of reactions. And that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
But there will be people who say, well, you know, it doesn't work.
It can't work. You can't have that, you can't sustain a restaurant that level What do you say?
Like, what's your response to that? For me...
It took a long time to come to this next step of evolution and part of it was because we put so much this flag in the ground. and people saying it's not going to work and You don't want to be like some of those voices, maybe they had a point.
Part of what they're saying There was some truth to it.
You feel that way? I feel that it's such a big change.
It's a change... in our industry was a change to our suppliers.
So I think there's a lot of fear that comes up with that.
I don't know all the reasons why people said this will not work, But if it was for the reasons that it wasn't inclusive, then I think they definitely had a point.
But to me, it very much... is a success because our restaurant today is fundamentally different.
And now we're incorporating a few animal products where we're going to be very deliberate about what these are.
And... We studied a lot the Mediterranean diet And we traveled with our team to Greece and to Italy.
And you know, That diet is mostly plant-based.
Just a little bit of meat. It's a little bit of fish and a little bit of meat for special occasions.
It's also what Michael Pollan has been preaching.
Eat mainly plants. Eat little and mostly plants.
Aaron Powell, Jr.: : And you mentioned Greece and Italy.
Was that trip sort of did that start to turn the gears in your head again about the next sort of iteration of what you want to do and how you want to present food.
Yeah, I feel like I started to realize that To create real change, we can't be as dogmatic.
And when we looked at ancient cultures which none of them have a lot of meat in their diet but it's also not no meat.
Right. I think it's important that where we're heading is informed by sort of ancient practices, but then also modern techniques and then we're finding sort of a place in the middle.
So moving forward, when somebody, I mean, the idea is at EMP, somebody is gonna dine there who would not have gone there before because they didn't feel like it was for them.
And they can have some duck if they want, and there might be some cheese, but you want them to walk out having been exposed to, preparation of vegetables that they would not have eaten anywhere else.
They're gonna walk out of that experience saying, wow, this was like, Like the best thing I had was the carrot cooked 15 hours at low temperature, whatever it might be.
My goal is that everyone can be around the table and different dishes are gonna resonate with different people.
We have created a new language of cooking that is based... in plant-based cooking.
And if you want, you will have the choice for a fish or for a lobster or for a duck. we're not anti-meat, but we are pro-planet, and we believe that we need to reduce the consumption of meat in the world and that is a fact.
That's not something I came up with. But so if we can celebrate vegetables and have a little bit of meat, or a little bit of fish, I think we're in really good shape.
And that will really move the needle. So probably a lot of the things like the desserts and the bread will still be There will be no animal products at all.
You're going to have cream in your desserts or butter in the croissant.
You know, I think when we find a product that we're really excited about, that we want to highlight.
This could be a cheese and this could be a butter or it could be a cream.
And when the dish becomes about that product, then we will use it. but we will not just mix it into every single dish like it used to be.
But any great product has the potential to become a dish of Eleven Madison Park if that becomes the main focus.
Yeah. And will you have to reestablish some relationships that you lost?
You know, it was really interesting when we made this change. we did get some, we upset some, some people were upset.
Some of our suppliers were upset and they felt like somehow we are turning our back on them, which of course in a way we did because we stopped ordering certain things. but this was never meant to be. personal or this was never meant to be about a supplier or Even some chefs I could feel they were a little bit rubbed the wrong way because maybe they felt that maybe there's some changes coming and maybe they need to start changing certain things.
But this wasn't ever about anyone else. other than what I wanted to do as a chef.
And I was in a creative rut. I wasn't fulfilled.
I had the opportunity to create something entirely different. to learn about new cultures I never looked at.
Traveling India, traveling... Japan, learning about the Zen Buddhist cuisine, going to the Middle East, all these places.
It's changed my life. It's changed me as a chef and I'm extremely grateful. and the team is grateful.
Today I feel like our cuisine is its own.
Before, I think it was always a version of something that already existed And today I feel like I really found my voice.
Today, the cuisine is very authentic to Eleven Madison Park.
After the break, what Daniel thinks his decision means for himself and for 11 Madison Park.
Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to a special episode of How I Built This Lab.
Hey, welcome back to How I Built This Lab.
I'm Guy Raz. So along with his decision to put a few animal products back onto the menu, Daniel's grappling with what it means to him creatively as a chef, as a businessman, and as a leader.
You know, from an outsider's perspective, right, especially for a young chef. or anybody in food or anyone really looking at your career and you, you know, they see you, you'd be perceived as somebody extremely successful and Michelin three stars and all these accolades.
And I wonder how you see yourself. I'm full of self-doubt, especially with where we're going next, you know, in the process after everyone told me this is not gonna work.
And I sort of came to the conclusion that we want to continue to evolve We don't want to be stuck in this box.
And sort of at times I felt like... Well, I'm a fraud.
All these things, the flag that I put in the sand is now...
People are going to look at it as like a weakness.
Are they going to judge me for being weak, for not standing, for my beliefs and of course I have all these thoughts. in my head but then I also have to remind myself that In order to evolve, we do have to push boundaries and then we learn, and then at times we pull back, and then we push in a different direction, and then we pull back.
I feel like it's kind of human nature. And I think if we want to continue evolving Eleven Madison Park, if I want to continue to learn as a chef, that's part of the process.
And I'm so grateful to the community, the plant-based community, who has been celebrating our work.
It's given me a lot and I do hope that now that we're pivoting slightly, that now the plant-based community doesn't feel like or turning our back because that's not at all what we're doing.
It's really to go deeper on this, to continue on this.
We want to welcome everyone at the table.
Part of running a restaurant and a business is you have to your leader, right?
You have to exercise like leadership skills.
And so this is a I mean, there are people who are on the team, some of whom came and joined you because of this, because you went fully plant-based.
So it's going to be hard for some people.
Yeah. How are you going to manage... that sort of friction.
I think my team is everything to me. and a lot of people have been with me for a long time.
I think the people who've been with me for a long time, they've gone through many different changes. with me and we all understand that we're always going to continue to evolve and listen and and adapt.
So in that sense, everyone has lived this experience and everyone is sort of like... itching for an evolution from here. um there are people who have joined our restaurant because we are going down this path and uh but they're also all in the hospitality business.
And that's really why they are working in a restaurant.
And I think they hear these feedbacks of people say like, oh, I wish my brother could be here as well, or I wish my husband would understand what this is, but he's not willing to do it.
And so we're all living this experience and I think People will understand.
We are not reverting back to the restaurant we were.
We're a changed restaurant forever on. And the thing about EMP is change is in its DNA.
There is a quote by an artist, William de Kooning, that really resonates with me.
And he said, I have to change to stay the same.
And this couldn't be more true for 11 Madison Park.
The restaurant industry in general is having is sort of – that the word crisis has been used, that might be a bit much, but I mean, there are a lot of challenges, right?
I hear from people I know in the industry, you hear it from chefs who restaurants are closing, for a variety of reasons.
Part of it is cost of labor. and just to sustain the pace of running, especially a fine dining restaurant.
I'm sure you've seen these conversations happening on the margins or even actually it's on center stage around the future of fine dining.
Like is that model, right? Is that model sustainable?
Is it going to be how people eat in 10 or 15 years?
To me, chefs are incredibly important. As we're seeing, our food... system change, our supply, change.
This cannot be in the hands of politics.
This has to be in the hands of chefs and farmers and the people actually on the ground.
Fine dining will always be will always exist because it's the highest form of cooking.
It's like saying there won't be any ballet anymore or any classical music.
This is part of the culture. I think it's important. that it continues to exist and that we continue to celebrate it.
And I believe very much I think the way, this is always kind of swung in a pendulum where We're very focused on casual dining and then eventually we become more focused on fine dining. and maybe now we're in a place of in the more casual, but it will swing back.
It is important. It's also where a lot of the education happens.
Like, the amount of people who have come through EMP or through the French Laundry or to... single thread, or through any of these great restaurants, It is tremendous, and these people are working in casual restaurants, but they've gotten the training from these fine dining restaurants.
So I think it's, imperative that these restaurants continue to exist.
So here you are right at this next chapter and Now, we might talk about this chapter in five years.
Where do you see yourself in, you know, in 10 years from now?
Like, Where do you see – because you're still young.
I mean you're not yet 50. I think that's young because I'm 50.
But, I mean, you have – all of these things that you probably want to do, and you're involved in different projects, I know.
Where do you see yourself in 10 years from now?
And what do you want to be doing? I mean, Eleven Madison Park has been my life I've been there for 20 years.
I could have never imagined that that would become my home for so long.
But I'm so grateful and I feel that my work with this restaurant isn't done yet.
But I think, and especially I think this next chapter is, is really crucial because I do believe that we are really now landing in a very healthy place where it's fundamentally a different restaurant, but one that welcomes everyone.
And so that is something I want to see fully through And in a weird way, I feel like for the first time ever, The restaurant feels complete after 20 years being there.
And my goal is for this restaurant, this restaurant deserves to be one of the great restaurants for many more decades.
And I don't think that's in me to be able to continue that story.
We have incredible team members. who are much younger, who hopefully one day someone can take the rain and continue that story.
My dream is that in 30 years, the restaurant is as important as it is today.
But that's an exciting sort of conversation and something I'm looking forward to solve over the next decade.
That's Daniel Hoom, chef and owner of Eleven Madison Park in New York City.
Just a reminder, we'll put a link to my original conversation with Daniel from Twitter.
2021 in the show notes. It's a great episode and well worth hearing.
Thanks so much for listening to the show this week.
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This episode was produced by Katherine Seifer with music composed by Ramteen Arablui.
It was edited by Andrea Bruce. Our engineers were Robert Rodriguez and Sina Lofredo.
Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Casey Herman, Kerry Thompson, Noor Gill, Ramel Wood, Sam Paulson, Deva Grant, and Elaine Coates.
I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.
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