So Julie, you know, even though I get annoyed when other people say people used to be nice
or I kind of think I might feel that way too.
Like if I have a vision of my childhood and I'm walking down the street from the playground,
I imagine all my neighbors saying like, hi little Hana and the mailman coming by, you
know, and tipping us had it me and the old man walking his dog and, you know, I have no
idea of this memory is accurate, but I definitely have that feeling that people were nicer.
Did you grow up in Mr. Rogers' neighborhood or what was it?
No, I actually grew up in Queens, New York, so he's definitely certainly not true.
In how to talk to people, season four of the How-To podcast series, we explored the barriers
to community building in modern life.
Things like, why does it feel like a lot fewer people know their neighbors today than they
used to?
In this special mashup episode with the Atlantic podcast Radio Atlantic, we're looking into
another potential barrier to connection.
It comes from a study done by a psychologist named Adam Maastriani, who spent a decade looking
into this widespread phenomenon in which people talk about how everything is worse these
days than it was in the past.
This feeling that people have gotten meiner and less trustworthy over time, or so we think.
So, my whole life, I've heard people say things like, you used to be able to keep your
doors unlocked at night, or you can't trust someone's word anymore.
And I always chafed at those kind of statements, so part of it was wanting to prove everybody
wrong, but part of it too was like, well, if they're right, this is a big problem.
And that's kind of where we got started.
I sat down with Honour Rosen, the host of Radio Atlantic, who spoke with Adam about his
study to dissect what this means for the political sphere and our personal lives.
I think my first year of graduate school when Trump got elected, and so obviously it was
a moment of make America great again, being sort of the vibe of the day, seeing how claims
that the past was good, the present is bad, put me in charge, and I can bring the good
past back, also just maybe see how like this is much more than, you know, uncles and
brothers and law and people on the internet saying these things, that these claims resonate
with people, and they help put people in the Oval Office.
Yeah, I mean, I have to say that's my motivation for being interested in your research, because
I have always had a kind of detached curiosity about why this line resonates so strongly.
Like why is it that, and it's not just American leaders, it's leaders all over the world,
you can just say things were better back then, and it immediately clicks for people.
Like they don't even have to explain it, you can just say, you know, make America great
again.
It's like four words, and all the assumptions are immediately there for people.
Yeah, when I give talks in an academic context about this paper, that's what I start with
is the end of Trump's inaugural speech where he says, you know, we'll make America wealthy
again and proud again and safe again and great again.
I point out that the most important word in those sentences, you know, isn't America
or safe or proud or strong or great?
It's again.
Yes.
That just that word does a ton of work, which is that like, well, if things used to be great
but aren't now, it means something changed.
It implies that we can change it back.
It evokes a sense of loss, but also a sense of possibility of restoring the loss.
Yeah, yeah, and it is the word again.
It's like that one little word sort of resolves something emotionally for people.
It's hard to understand exactly how it works.
You say the word again and everyone's like, you just fill the hole for me, you know?
Yeah.
What exactly do you mean when you say moral decline and why if it's an illusion, does it feel
so real?
There are a few totally reasonable hypotheses about what people might think of when they
talk about moral decline.
It might be that everyone means like, I heard that the 1950s were a really good time.
And so what I'm really telling you is things have declined since then.
Not that they got worse in the past 10 years, that they like, they got worse, you know,
20 years ago or 50 years ago.
And we're just living in the bad times now.
In a later study, we asked people, go back even farther than that.
What about 20 years before that?
What about 40 years before that?
And what they told us there is, before I arrived, nothing was happening.
Things were good, things were good, things were good.
Then I got born and then things started to go downhill.
And what's especially interesting is it doesn't matter when you were born.
So the people who were 30 told us it happened 30 years ago, the people who were 60 told
us it happened 60 years ago.
Wait, really?
So literally people think the decline began when they came on this earth.
Yeah.
So, I mean, we don't ask like, you know, the day before and the day after.
But the question that we asked was, rate how kind, honest, nice and good people are today.
What about the year in which you were 20?
And people told us it was better than.
What about the year in which you were born?
And people told us it was, it was even better.
Then, and then we asked, what about 20 years before that and 40 years before that?
And there's no difference in people's answers.
That line is flat.
It's only when we asked about 20 years after your birth that the line goes down.
That is so interesting.
I don't think I fully grasp that.
So people are projecting whatever personal difficulties or struggles of life.
Now maybe I'm extrapolating onto the whole of humanity.
Like they're projecting their own lifespan onto a historical, broader cultural, political
lifespan.
Yeah.
And I mean, this is a bias of people's memory.
Because you don't have memories from before you were born.
You do have memories from most of the time after you were born.
So it would make sense if this is a memory bias that it turns on sometime near the moment
of your birth.
Obviously not exactly then.
But this would explain why we don't see this for what people think about before they were
born and after.
Does it really not matter how young you are?
I mean, the stereotype is obviously, you know, grandpa Simpson.
It's like older people are always talking about how things were better back then, but
not necessarily younger people.
Yeah.
We totally expect to define that as well.
And we didn't really.
So when you ask people about the decline that they have perceived over their lifetimes,
and there there's no difference in the amount of decline that younger and older people perceive.
Julie, I would surprise to hear that there wasn't a difference between older people and younger
people in terms of how they perceive this moral decline.
I mean, you're not an old person.
You're young.
So do you remember ever having this feeling?
I distinctly remember I did not get a smartphone until I moved to DC in 2013.
So in the years before that when I lived in Chicago, I just have a memory of like having
so many more interactions with strangers on the street.
And I definitely do not have those nearly as frequently anymore.
And I think it's just because we're all looking at our phones, right?
So part of me kind of romanticizes like the, you know, chance encounters of the pre-smart
phone era and all of that.
Yeah, and when I hear you say that, I'm like, oh, it's fine for Julie to have that feeling.
And it's fine for me to have that feeling.
But if I like multiply it by a few million times, then I get this political movement of,
let's go back to the era when things were better and that I don't really like so much.
Yeah.
One thing that this makes me think of too is a line of research that has found that social
trust has actually been declining in the US for decades.
So people are essentially less and less likely to say that generally most other people can
be trusted.
And so you're totally right that there are really big political implications for thinking
the past was better and people used to be more trustworthy.
For me, it feels like kind of a chicken or an egg question.
Like do we trust people less because we believe they've gotten morally worse?
Or do we believe people are worse because we're more disconnected from our communities?
We focused here on a pretty narrow question, which is, you know, it has the way that
people treat one another and their everyday lives changed over time and do people think
that it has this is a model of when things are bad, it's easy for them to seem like they
have gotten worse.
And so I don't think this is the only domain where we might find the solution because
people say this about a lot of different parts of life, you know, that art is worse than
it used to be.
The culture is worse than it used to be that, you know, the education system is worse than
it used to be.
But it seems pretty clear to me that we are predisposed to believe that it's true even
when it's not.
Your assumptions in this research are people have this idea that a certain kind of morality
has declined, but in your mind, it has not declined.
So to you, this is like an illusion.
I mean, you call it an illusion, right?
Yes.
So working within that assumption, what's your explanation?
Like why would a majority of us be operating under a delusion slash illusion?
Like something that you're saying is clearly not true?
We think that there are two cognitive biases that can combine to produce this illusion.
So this explanation is two parts.
The first is what we call biased exposure, which is that people tend to, tend to, predominantly
negative information, especially about people that they don't know.
So this is both a combination of the information that they receive about people that they don't
know, which is primarily negative, and the information that they pay attention to.
So this is why when you look out at the world beyond your personal world, it looks like
it's full of people who are doing bad things.
They're lying and cheating and stealing and killing.
The second part of the explanation is what we call biased memory.
Memory researchers have noticed that the badness of bad memories tends to fade faster than
the goodness of good memories.
So if you got turned down for your high school prom, feels pretty bad at the time.
20 years later, it's maybe a funny story.
If you have a great high school prom, it feels pretty good at the time, and 20 years later,
it's still a pretty nice memory.
It doesn't feel as nice as it did to experience it, but it still feels pretty nice.
And that turns out to be, on average, what happens to people's memories, that the bad ones
inch toward neutral faster than the good ones do.
And the bad ones are more likely to both be forgotten and to become good in retrospect.
So when I read the paper, Hana, I wondered whether what might be going on is that
people are to some degree picking up on a real change in the world.
There's the decline of social trust, but also widespread loneliness and disconnection
and the erosion of community life in the sense of fewer people knowing their neighbors
and declining membership and community organizations.
And all of those things definitely have an impact on people's personal lives, but I think
it manifests as a vague feeling that, like, oh, it's just harder to make friends or harder
to feel like I'm a part of my community.
So I wonder if we're feeling this sort of big and troubling sense of disconnection and
assigning it a false explanation that things used to be better before and people just suck
more than they used to.
Ooh, that's really interesting.
So what you're saying is the feeling is real.
Like the feeling that something has changed is real because something has changed.
Like there is more disconnection and loneliness.
So instead, we make up this very tidy story.
Like when I was a kid, things were better and people were nicer and the male nantipto's
hat, and we just kind of stopped there.
Yeah, there definitely are real things that are really happening that would make people
feel disconnected from strangers around them.
And I wonder if, yeah, we just have a hard time psychologically knowing why that's the
case.
So Adam, I want to run a couple of theories by you.
One is the possibility that something has actually changed, and we're just calling it by the
wrong name.
Like something has declined, and this is from a different body of psychological research
about social trust.
Like that there is a change in our isolation, our sense of connectedness, our face-to-face
contact.
Like there are some societal changes, which are real and structural, and have kind of
left a hole in us that we are misnaming morality.
And we read it here, we thought there are some things that are changing, and that do
leave us a little despairing.
And maybe we're just calling them by the wrong name.
Like it's a feeling we have this incredibly powerful feeling that something is wrong, and
that something is connectedness or community or something like that.
Yeah, so it's very easy to slip from people are less kind than they used to be to things
are worse than they used to be.
And so it is true that trust in institutions has declined over time.
A lot of people also say that like interpersonal trust has declined over time, and I actually
think that case is much more overstated than the decline in institutional trust.
There's some work by a guy named Richard Ibok on how people think the world has gotten
more dangerous, and he finds that people believe this, and the people who believe this, especially
are parents, and when you ask those parents when did the world become more dangerous,
you get a date that is curiously close to the date of the birth of their first child.
The obvious implication being that nothing about the world changed, it was your world view
that changed, and now you have to protect this fragile life, and so you are much more
attuned to the dangers of the world, that's why you think there's more of them.
You know, Julie, I have this conversation with my brother all the time, and he's always
telling me his kids aren't safe. Like he lives in New York, he's like, my kids aren't
safe, they can't go outside, they can't go down the block like he really freaks out,
you know? And it's way less safe than it was when we were kids, and I'm like, dude, we
grew up in New York in the 70s.
Right. It was really not safe. It's like statistically.
Statistically, and I've shown him news articles, and I once pulled out an FBI report, I like
specially downloaded an FBI report that showed, you know, crime statistics in New York from
when we were kids, and his conviction is so strong about this, like I can't budge him,
I can't show him enough numbers or statistics to make him think, oh, things aren't worse
now. I mean, Adam Mastryani actually has a term for this. This is a little mean to
my brother, but his term is unearned conviction. And I think what he means by that is exactly
this. It's like your conviction is incredibly strong, even though you have really no basis
to back up the story that you're attaching to that very strong conviction.
Yeah, I mean, it seems like regardless of, you know, the FBI report, the story your
brother is telling himself is like super emotionally resonant. Yes. And the stories that we tell
ourselves about our own lives, like really do sort of shape who we are. It's really interesting
because when we tell these stories to ourselves about, you know, our personal lives, a lot
of times those stories fall into one of two categories. One being redemptive, and the other
being contamination. And so a redemptive story is like, I have, you know, suffered through
these trials and come out stronger for it, and things are looking up. Whereas the contamination
story is like these trials have conquered me and I am now like broken and fundamentally
a worse person. And it probably won't surprise you to hear that contamination sequences
are not great for people's mental health. That research was done, you know, with stories
that we're telling about our personal lives, but it feels like we're kind of telling
a contamination story about all of humanity. I guess what's depressing to me is why are
those the ones that stick? I mean, there are redemption stories that are popular in
American society, but I feel like a lot of moments in history and now is one of them.
These contamination stories like America was great once or Russia was great once have
a particular kind of emotional juice and can really rally people. Yeah. I mean, maybe
it's kind of like your brother's fear in New York, right? Where it's just like, that
is so viscerally emotional. It's like the safety of your kid. And so of course, that's
going to have like a way stronger impact.
Now, Adam, did you find any appreciable differences between demographics? So if not between
old and young people, what about gender differences or people with different political ideologies?
We didn't find any gender differences. We didn't find any differences by racial groups.
We didn't find any education differences. The only other demographic difference that we
found was an ideological one, a political one. The people who self identified as more
conservative perceived more decline over time than the people who self identified as liberal.
But even for the people who are the most liberal, they still said that people are less kind
today than they were 10 years ago, 20 years old, whatever point in the past. So this is
something that conservatives said louder, but liberals said as well.
So someone who identifies as a liberal could believe that there's less racism and sexism,
yes, but still believe that those other general universal markers of morality have declined.
Yes, and in fact, it seems like they do. In our studies, the much smaller group of people
who say that people are better now than they used to be, when we ask them why, what
were you thinking of? One thing that does come up for them is there's more tolerance,
there's less racism, sexism, ableism, all the isms. So it seems like that's not what
people are spontaneously thinking of when they say that people are less kind than they used
to be. Because if you ask them directly, do you think that for instance, people treat
African-Americans with more respect and courtesy or less than in the past, a majority of people
will say more today than in the past. But if you ask them are people more or less kind
today, they'll go less kind. So this is not what they're thinking of when they answer the
question.
Yeah, so it's a really, really specific feeling. Like I definitely think that people treat
each other with more respect largely because we have broadened the window of who is allowed
to be respected and sort of page-rearkel notions of control over people's bodies and sort
of who gets to make decisions. I mean, there's so many ways in which we have opened the door
to fairness and equity. Like I'd much rather be alive today than 50 years ago, for sure.
Yeah, I agree. And so I think it was especially surprising that I'm sure there are many other
people who agree. But even some of the people who do agree, they seem to think like, yeah,
but that actually doesn't come from people's heart of hearts. That like, they're actually
still worse to one another now than they used to be. Yeah, they'll say all the right things
or they'll have the right opinions. But you know, they won't hold the door open for
you or they'll cheat you when they can. Now people know the right things to say, but
they still do more of the bad things.
Do we feel the same way with people we know? Like, does it play out differently in our personal
lives?
You can actually also produce an illusion of improvement. You actually primarily hear good
things and experience good things about people that you know. And so we thought that in your
personal world, this illusion of decline might be turned down or turned off or even reversed.
And people told us people in general worse today than they were 15 years ago, people
that I have known for the past 15 years better today than they were 15 years ago.
So Julie, one thing that Adam found that I thought was so interesting was that people we
know like our own people, people were close to or whatever, that they somehow are getting
better over time. And yet the general public are getting worse. I don't quite understand
how those fit together. So I guess we just think the moral decline is happening with
strangers with all those other people. Right. And it seems like potentially the disconnection
from community that many people are experiencing could just mean that we're slotting more people
into the morally compromised, untrustworthy category. Right. Like if we met more people and
we had more casual acquaintances and we went to our bowling leagues or whatever, then we might
include more people in that circle of people we know and those people are good people.
So that could sort of spiral upwards rather than what's happening, which is a momentum
downwards. Adam's study kind of seems to say that if you get to know people, then you
won't think they're on a downward slope of moral depravity anymore. For one thing, Adam,
it sounds to me like the problem is that people are absolutely certain. Like they're not
questioning was the worst place. It's a sort of lack of humility because if you tried
to understand, well, maybe what did get worse, then you would come up with more specific
and useful policy solutions. I mean, I assume one reason you did this research is to point
out a mistake. Like we're all living under this delusion. And in your head, since you sound
like a fairly optimistic person, is it, you know, once I point that out, people will
not like knowledge is power and people will know and then they will stop. What's the aim
or what's your what's your wish here? Yeah. I mean, as a psychologist, I a little bit
despair of changing people's minds because I know how difficult it is. Like it doesn't
work the way that we think that it works that like, oh, you have the wrong model of the
world. How about I give you the correct facts? And now you have the correct model of the
world. Like when does that ever happen? Like when does that ever happen to me? Like never.
And one effect that I certainly hope that this has is whenever politicians or aspiring
politicians make the claim that you know, ah, things used to be better and put me in charge
and I'll make them better again. That's a very old thing that we've heard many times.
And it resonates with us, perhaps because we are primed to believe it, even when it's
not true.
So Hannah, now that we know this is an illusion, right? That's very interesting. But will it
actually change how you feel? I don't really know. I mean, I feel like as a journalist,
it depresses me a little bit because I spend a lot of time researching and marshaling facts
like I did with my brother and to think that emotions ultimately squash all of that.
I don't really know what to do with that. Yeah. But in my own personal life, awareness
is helpful. I don't think any bad can come from understanding your own emotional levers
better. It's not that it immediately leads like to a change, but I don't think it can
ever be bad to understand, oh, I'm having this emotional attachment or strong belief.
And that's leading me to to behave in this way. That in and of itself is a, is a small
daily miracle. So that's good enough.
If you liked my conversation with Hannah Rosen, listen to Radio Atlantic wherever you get
your podcasts. This episode was produced by Becker-Rachid, editing by Jocelyn Frank,
fact check by Isabel Kreisto, engineering by Rob Smirciak. The executive producer of audio
is Claudine Abade. The managing editor of audio is Andrea Valdes.
