I am 42 years old and I've never really been in a real romantic relationship.
About one and a half months ago, I met this very nice guy.
I was in a polyamorous relationship and we have started dating and now we are in a relationship as well.
Everything is very nice.
We have very nice communication.
I feel very safe with him.
He's lovely.
We have fun.
And yet, I feel this constant panic.
There's this constant panic inside of me.
And I don't understand why.
Like when he sends a text saying, can I ask you something?
I feel scared. that this will be bad news.
I feel like, oh, now something bad is going to happen.
It never does.
It's always a nice conversation.
Whenever I have a question, I can ask him and he always replies in a nice way.
So I have no clue what is going on, but I do feel that this panic is getting in the way of exploring this relationship and that it might sabotage it, which I don't want.
So I hope you can help me figure out what is going on.
Thank you.
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You have the mic.
Yeah, with this i've been struggling like the relationship is is very nice.
I just keep freaking out.
Do you want to start with the part that says this is beautiful.
I want to savor this.
This feels so special.
I've been wanting this for so long.
Do you want to start with the part that says don't get carried away?
This won't last.
This can disappear any moment.
There's a reason you're still single at 42.
And your panic is protecting you.
And many other things that I haven't mentioned.
Yeah.
Which part do we want to start with?
I think the second part is what is getting to me.
But it's getting to you because you're experiencing the first.
Yeah.
I had tried to rephrase my question this afternoon and I thought...
Maybe my question is how to deal with a romantic relationship.
I'm not used to that.
How does one do that?
So I just met you literally a minute and a half ago.
So tell me a little bit more.
Just give me a little bit of context about your relationship story.
And the parts of the story that you would share, want to hold on to and harness, and the parts of your story that you would like to change or leave behind.
And you mean in this relationship or previous relationships, or probably it starts before this one.
Yeah, the panic is not two days old, definitely not.
No, i've always wanted to find romantic love and to just, you know, have someone you can share something with, to be with, and it never really worked out like i think.
I was scared, a lot like, of people getting too close, of people expecting things and yeah no no, there's no.
Yeah, those two lines are like four chapters of a book.
So tell me a tiny bit more so i have some sense of what you're you're saying the fear of them coming too close, and that's that represents an entire realm of experience, a sense of coming with expectations.
That's that's code language that you understand.
You fill in all the blanks, but I wouldn't pretend to be able to imagine that.
I know what you're talking about.
I can guess, but that won't do it.
No, I think I've grown up with the idea, with the family culture in which we learned if someone asks you something, then You do it right.
You need to be helpful.
You need to be nice to people.
So if someone asks you something, you do it.
You don't say no to people.
Because what is the value underneath?
Kindness generosity hospitality, altruism matter because?
Because otherwise they might not like you.
Talk bad about you.
And that is, you know, you grew up in a small place.
That's not a good thing.
I mean, I think my, we moved to another side of the country.
And I think that was mostly because I remember my mother saying, people always come by here.
People are always just walking in the door, just walking in.
And now that I'm older, I'm thinking, well, you could just say, like, this is not the right time.
Could you come back later?
I think that's a thing that I never learned.
As well like to say okay, until here and no further, or um, i had panic attacks for a long time and that all stopped when my psychologist at the time said well, if you don't want to go to the party, then don't go to the party.
And that for me was like that error in my head for minutes, because i was like yeah, i understand what you say, but it doesn't make sense, You don't do that.
You don't say no.
And do you remember the first time you didn't go?
Yeah.
I remember saying to a friend, I'm fine with going out tonight with you.
But I do want to make an agreement that I will go home when I want.
And of course, she had to laugh and said like, yeah, sure, that's fine.
But that was a big thing.
So the part of my relationship culture that I want to hold on to or my relationship story that I want to hold on to or value is, and the part of my relationship story that I would like to let go of.
What would you say?
I find it hard to think what I would like to hold on to.
I think being there for people.
I know my family, we don't have a very close relationship.
But if there's anything wrong, they'll be there.
It's what we do.
And I think that's what I want to keep.
It's what we do regardless of how I feel about you.
It's the right thing to do.
Yeah, definitely mm-hmm, and I think the part I want to let go is there.
What is the cultural and religious background of the family?
Anyway, we're Dutch.
Mm-hmm used to be Catholic but not very religious, so the more freer part of Catholicism How many children?
Four.
Response to homosexuality?
Fine.
I mean, I came out late.
We didn't have a very good relationship when I was younger, but I always knew they were going to be fine.
Like we had more gay people in the family.
They came over a lot and I always learned this was okay.
And the feeling that developed under the value of you always say yes when people ask you something.
You always put their needs ahead of yours convey to you a sense that In order to have relationships, you have to be all pleasing of others.
And it's about their needs and their expectations.
Yeah.
Or they go away and then you don't have relationships.
Was it a message of conditional love, so to speak?
You either please and do what they want or they won't hang around.
I think it was more not knowing how to ask for things, like not knowing how to ask for help or, like you know, you do things by yourself.
If people ask, you're nice, but you don't set boundaries for yourself.
You don't ask for things for yourself.
Because?
It's not about you.
So relationships are fill in the blank.
If they're not about you?
A burden.
I think if I look at my parents they I find it hard to say, but I think they stayed together for the kids.
They did not see that loving relationship.
So relationships are... are a burden.
It's all about duty obligation, doing things to prevent gossip, pleasing others attending to their needs, not having any room for one's own.
Here is this thing that you absolutely long for and hope for your entire life, but is, at the same time, the thing that you most want to avoid.
Because who would want that?
Yeah.
Yes.
And I might disappear.
Huge contradiction.
Yeah.
Also the fear that I might disappear in it.
Like, where am I in this?
Yeah.
Like, who disappeared in your house, by the way?
One of them?
Both of them?
Both.
Each of you?
Yeah.
I think a couple of us in the family, like my mother, definitely my father in a way she disappeared how she got the very bad cancer.
When, when i was about 13, stay there for a moment because you're right there and you're seeing it I had never really I knew it, but I had never realized it until like a month ago that the doctor actually said to her like well, we think you have a couple of months to live.
She survived.
But at that time, it just looked like it was over.
That must have been so scary.
It was.
And you were very close to your mommy.
I was.
And what happened?
I was.
I'm no longer.
Not that close, no.
We grew apart.
I mean, we call, we have conversations, but it's not like it was.
It was like the time, it was a very tough time.
Nobody knew what to do.
I mean, we were running a house.
My father was, I think, the most scared of us all going up and down to the hospital having a job.
We lived on a farm that needed to be taken care of.
My mother used to do that, and then he needed to do that apart from his other job.
And then, you know yeah, so we, we were doing the best we can, we could, but we didn't have the emotional skills to talk or to deal with that.
I think my younger brother was the only one who at one point said that he was scared.
I don't remember talking with the others about that, or so we all went into survival mode and we each learned to deal with our fear and our sense of dread and our anticipated loss and our anticipatory grief, each of us by ourselves alone, in silence.
But did we feel alone or did we feel united and solidarious even though we didn't talk?
I felt alone.
Okay.
I don't know about the others.
And I learned that the more close and attached you are to someone, the bigger the fall if you lose them.
Maybe.
Like when you get a question from your boyfriend and you have that irrational panic.
Yeah.
That by definition it must be something bad.
Yeah.
Is it the same physical feeling that you had back then?
I can't remember, actually.
Also because we don't talk a lot at all at home about emotions, never did.
So we talked a lot, but not about feelings.
A lot of this stuff was also not not discussed.
I think we didn't get a lot of the information.
We knew what was going on, but i don't know how much we knew.
But it wasn't positive definitely, but physically in your body.
Did you expect that every time somebody would then say something it wouldn't be necessarily good news?
No, I don't feel that was it.
At least I don't remember that physical sensation.
I mean, there was a lot going on.
I was being bullied terribly at school.
For? being smarter.
I was in the wrong educational track.
And by the time people discovered that I was already so scared that I didn't want to switch anymore.
So I was picked on, bullied for like two, three years.
That physical sensation definitely is this, that I remember.
You just saw that too.
How old?
I think it started when I was 12 and then growing up gay in quite a religious area.
It was not a place to come out or to find other people who had the same experience.
Did you have friends?
I had some but I tried very hard, but I think it was more of a convenience thing.
I don't think we really connected.
Like we lived close together.
So you're friends, you cycle to school together, you're friends.
But also when I was going to secondary school, I was the only one from primary school who was put in a different group.
So I was separated already there.
So there I was alone.
And you couldn't bring any of that home, or you did?
No, I didn't.
Or there was enough happening at home that you thought No, this was before the things at home started happening, but already I didn't.
I was too ashamed to tell about the bullying anymore.
Because you made it about you.
Definitely.
And I think that's the constant thing under the relationship now as well that I constantly feel like I'm not enough.
I'm too much.
I'm taking up too much space.
I'm being too much.
It's this constant, I'm too much and I'm not enough.
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So the man that looks at that boy, that thinks what's wrong with me, that they pick on me, must be me.
It's okay.
He usually doesn't get to take up the space.
No.
As he just did now.
No.
He doesn't.
Because what does he do usually?
Hide.
And run.
Make sure he's not being seen.
I'm right here, I'm just meeting him.
What do you think?
He was very hurt.
He had to deal with a lot of meanness and cruelty.
I've never known a person, particularly I don't know if that's true, but I was going to say particularly men, boys who were bullied and who don't live with it inside of them in their adult life.
It just seemed to be one of the most imprinting experiences we have.
And the fact that you can't talk about it with anybody because you have to pretend that none of this bothers you.
And the fact that it then becomes the thing that follows you for so long.
And you say, nobody's going to have that power over me.
I'm going to stay away from anybody so that nobody can ever touch me like that again.
Definitely physical, pulling or mental or all of the above.
Mostly mental, like yeah, it never got very physical, but i mean shaming you of the wazoo yeah, all right.
Yeah, making fun, asking questions like make me feel uncomfortable all the time, like being very sneaky about it just What kind of questions would the boys ask you?
It was a girl, actually, mostly a girl.
So it's one person?
It started with, yeah, it was one person who was mostly doing it, yeah.
I think the others got pulled into it and just went along.
But as soon as she wasn't in the group anymore, things got better.
Never good, but better.
Not as bad as it was with her.
I mean, obviously, there were other questions like, are you gay?
Lots of sexual innuendo questions or puberty insecurity, questions about your body or things you like.
Or like a very mean one was like, look at me.
And then I would look at her and then she would go like, look away.
Look at me.
Look away.
Look at me.
Look away.
So degrading.
So mean i didn't know what to do.
It felt like no one.
No one saw it and when people saw, people didn't do anything.
Worst thing is there was one teacher and he he it wasn't a very good teacher, but he was the only one who said i will not accept this in class, still couldn't handle the situation, but it was the only one ever in class who said something about it.
And the connection i was making was when you described your boyfriend sending you a message and saying can i ask you a question?
Yeah, and that you're going to panic.
And i just wondered Is there a resonance there between her asking you questions?
Yeah.
And you're anticipating a question as being degrading, undermining, ridiculing.
I think all the questions that he asks me, or like when he says, can I ask you a question?
It just always feels like, oh, now he's just going to say.
I'm leaving.
Yeah.
Like, can I ask you a question like the hang yourself method, right?
Like, can I ask you a question?
How do you think things are going?
I think they're not going great.
Bye.
And like you didn't know this was coming.
You didn't see it coming, but it's not going all right.
But tell me something.
In the decades that you avoided relationships, romantic relationships, did you use that tactic?
Can I ask you a question?
How are things going in your mind?
I must have done, yeah.
You seem to know the script so well.
Yeah.
At the times when I didn't have the skills to just say things or when I was still in the script of you know, it's better to do it indirectly, because otherwise people feel hurt.
Yeah, I would probably do that or just disappear, avoid contact.
So you know those responses well, and now you find yourself in a relationship with someone you like a lot.
And every protective part of you is trying to tell you, don't do it.
It's not worth it.
You're going to be disappointed.
Nobody can meet your needs.
You can't meet anybody else's needs.
Relationships are a burden.
And that's one set of messages.
But you're in conversation with them and so what's the conversation?
Like chaos if you had a different conversation with them that says i'm willing to take the risk Because, in effect, all of these voices that tell you stay away stop, don't bother.
They pretend to make your life safer but in effect, they just make your life more lonely.
They don't really protect you, even though they present themselves like the security squad.
Funny thing is when friends are dating and they're like scared and trying to run away.
There's actually only two questions that are important.
Like, do you like the other person?
Do you want to see the other person again?
I'm completely failing to apply that to myself.
Can you bring that chair that is behind you and put it next to this chair?
All right.
Now that chair will represent the pools that say yeah, don't bother, keep going, fill it up.
You know your inner voice is much better than me.
Yeah, it's not gonna work out, it's not worth it.
Keep looking run run run, just go.
All right now go sit in that chair and tell him he's right here.
Tell him what?
Uh-huh run, get the hell out.
Why bother?
Not worth it.
I feel so weird.
Yeah, to what?
To take the inner?
It doesn't make sense.
Like, I mean, I get your question, but it doesn't make sense because it's stupid.
Why are you being so stupid about it?
Meaning, why don't you trust what you're experiencing?
Yeah.
You know he likes you.
You know you like him.
I do.
So just go with that.
And you'll be fine.
You'll be fine.
Really?
Yeah.
All right.
So now go back to the other side.
Are you so quickly convinced?
No.
Okay.
Give him your pushback.
It has never worked out.
I'm 42.
It has never worked out.
So why would this time work?
Given your past experiences, it's more likely that it isn't going to work.
So why try?
It takes a lot of energy.
It's going to hurt a lot if it doesn't work.
Because you like him a lot, because you have to take a risk.
That's life.
You can't live life without taking a risk and it is fine because you will be all right.
You have your friends and people around you who are there, who are stable, who will not let you go, so you will survive this.
Are there other histories of romantic hurt that come up when you tell him it that you're ready to take risks, that you're ready to open yourself up, that if it hurts, it hurts but it's a part of life.
It's not a reason not to pursue love.
No, I don't think it doesn't feel like it is any of the past relationships that that is this.
I think that your survive.
Your survive.
Emotion is more like.
I have struggled with suicidal thoughts in the past.
I'm not going there anymore.
That's been a decision and I haven't felt like that in years.
I don't feel like that now.
But it is the fear of what if I don't survive this together with.
I grew up in the 80s and 90s.
The first thing I saw about gay people is that you die from HIV AIDS.
Yeah, it was a couple of years ago when I thought I survived.
I was too young to catch anything, but this was the.
This was the image that was unprinted on me on television, in the news, everywhere You're gay.
If you're gay, you're going to die and it's your own fault.
And the only way you survive is by staying away from anyone you would ever want to connect with in any one way or another.
Definitely.
Because intimacy, sex is dangerous.
Right.
What a frightening message.
How is the sexual connection between you two good?
No, I didn't ask you to give me a.
No, I feel very safe.
II, I can totally relax, like the physical connection is a.
He can touch me in places that other people, when they would touch me, would make me feel.
Yeah, and with him I'm just, I feel the same but I enjoy it, like the physical sensation is the same, but I I can let go of it, I relax, I enjoy, I tense up in the right way.
Yeah, he's a very good cuddler and you, I love cuddling.
Yeah.
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There is still so much to talk about.
So stay with us.
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And does he come with some fears of his own?
Oh, definitely.
Because...
You shouldn't take up all the fear credits.
No, no, no.
No, we talk about that.
Yeah.
No, and that's why I wanted to talk to you, because it became so clear to me that this is not about the relationship.
Right.
This is not about what he and I have.
No, this is about what he and I have, but it feels so special and so fragile and so doomed by culture and history that I would love to surrender to it.
I would love to go ahead and celebrate it and scream it on the roofs.
But what if?
Yeah, what if and, and how?
How does one do that?
How does one do a romantic relationship?
You know, like i was thinking okay, so what if we don't have anything to say anymore?
And then, of course, ignore that because we'll have stuff to say.
But like those stupid things like okay, so what if i'm not doing enough?
Or what if it's?
You know, these conversations I imagine them on the pillow, and sometimes on the walk or on the bench are part of what strengthens the romantic bond.
Yeah, it does.
The more I care about you, the more I am afraid that I may not be enough for you.
And that is a statement. that is intrinsic to romantic love.
It doesn't have to necessarily connect itself to childhood, to trauma, to bullying, to anything.
Just simply, I want to continue to feel as special as I do.
But what if I don't?
What if one day we stop being attracted to each other?
What if one day we have nothing to say to each other?
And what makes the romantic bond is that these become conversations that we have together rather than secret thoughts that express my insecurities.
Yeah.
It's the actual display of these thoughts that are more tender, more vulnerable, more insecure, but that are insecurity produced by the intensity of the feelings and the actual conversation and sharing about it head to head, face to face, eye to eye, is what deepens the romantic connection.
How old is he?
40 oh okay, I mean, I'm just saying you both have history and experiences and avoidances.
Yeah.
Okay.
We're equal is what I'm saying.
Yeah.
It's one of the things I like about this relationship, that it does feel fairly equal.
And you both are saying this is scary?
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I want it.
Yeah.
And the more I want it and the more scared I am.
For me, definitely.
Yeah.
And for him?
I've not asked that question.
Okay.
The previous things.
Yeah.
Because I tie the level of my fear with the level of my intention, my desire, my attraction and my love, and you can switch the order, yeah.
So what was your question?
I think my first question was what, what?
What causes the panic?
And then later i thought like why, why can't i just enjoy this?
I kind of just be in the moment and enjoy this relationship instead of constantly being in my head and panicking about it.
And do we have any nuggets?
I think one is it's okay to panic.
Because it's a sign of... how much you care about the relationship or how deep you're going into it.
It's good to communicate about it.
Maybe we shouldn't call it panic.
No.
Because you call it panic and then you think it's going to be a sabotage and you have a whole narrative about the panic.
Maybe it's just simply excitement and insecurity often live side by side.
Yeah, but last week to the point where I really wanted to run.
And so when the part of you that says why bother, let's run too scary, then you bring in the chair and you just ground that one.
Do you have a name for it?
No.
Him.
Him the runner, him what?
Him, scaredy cat.
Okay.
But not with contempt.
Not with contempt.
He may be a scary cat, he may be, you know, a lot of different things.
But if you go at him with contempt and self-loathing which I think is what you have done he becomes more tenacious.
Yeah, yeah.
Laugh at me.
We love best when we love last.
Yeah.
So, he demands recognition.
He demands kindness.
He demands understanding.
He demands compassion.
He has a reason to exist.
He didn't come out of nowhere.
But to have the two chairs helps you not just to see me, but more a side of me, a voice in me, a part of me.
But there's another voice.
There are other parts.
There are other facets.
And they are all in conversation with each other.
Rather than I become the sum total of this side of me.
And then I become the sum total of that side of me.
And each one is trying to push the other one down.
So instead of pushing each other down?
The stage is big enough for a cast of characters.
One says, go for it.
The other one says, don't bother.
The other one says, but I want to.
The other one says, yes, but look what that does to people.
The other one says, talk to him.
The other one says, no, keep it inside.
There's a lot of different, you know.
And part of the romantic stage, if you want, is that we actually get to tell somebody do you want to really meet the cast of characters that is behind the curtain, all these parts of me, all these characters, each one of them pulling in another direction.
Sometimes they come together for a bit.
What's your theater like?
Who's in your dramatic plot?
Full of love yeah adult gay romantic passionate sexual, sensual all of that.
They get normalized rather than seen as this tyrannical, destructive sabotage.
Yeah, that is what I'm doing.
Hi, you.
I haven't heard from you in a while.
What do you come to tell me today?
Listen to them, welcome them, offer them tea and then tell them we'd love to see you again, but not today.
Yeah.
And when?
They bring tears to you.
Like today, just give it some space.
Yeah.
Without invalidating it, dismissing it, criticizing it, like, what the fuck are you doing?
That's going to be tough.
Yeah.
I don't imagine you're going to do all of this just like that on the spot.
But you're going to try this, a little of this and a little of that.
Yeah.
None of this is a pass-fail, okay?
This is about changing the dial tone.
Upling some and lowering others.
Okay.
Yes.
Thank you.
Thank you.
This was an Esther calling a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world.
If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, it could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call.
Send her a voice message and Esther might just call you.
Send your question to producer at EstherPerel.com.
Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise.
We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.
Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julianne.
Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.
And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.
We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
Everything feels a bit uncertain right now.
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New sources of stress equal more opportunities for breakouts to strike.
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We'd say that's a pretty good deal.
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