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You don't wake up dreaming of McDonald's fries.
you wake up dreaming of mcdonald's hash browns mcdonald's breakfast comes first the universe has good news for the lost lonely and heartsick the sugars are here speaking straight into your ears i'm steve allman i'm cheryl strade this is dear sugars Oh dear song, won't you please Share some little sweet
days with me I check my bell vibes every day Oh, and the sugar You'll see in my way Hi, Cheryl.
Hi, Steve. Well, today we are going to do a rapid fire.
I love those. Yes, I love them too.
And they're about two of your favorite subjects, or at least I know one of these is your favorite subject.
Oh, no, they're both my favorite subjects.
Love and money. Yes.
And when I thought about this, I immediately went into my little lit nerd zone and thought, gee, our canon contains a whole literature of economic and romantic anxiety where those two are traveling together.
All of Jane Austen's novels are about finding a partner and the economic anxiety attendant with that.
It's no coincidence that Darcy is described as handsome and all the rest from Pride and Prejudice, but also he gets 10 ,000 pounds a year.
That is part of who Darcy is characterologically, and it is a big part of the math of that book.
The Great Gatsby is a book about love and money.
Little Woman, just to take that as an amazing novel, but it has a kind of wish fantasy in it, which is Joe Alcott marries the poor writer, right, the immigrant, but it's okay because they'll be happy and poor.
And it's a beautiful story.
And I believe it. But the economic circumstances and struggle and pressure of that actually does affect the calculus of love and erodes it and chips away at it.
And that's what almost all these letters are struggling with, mostly in the context of romantic partnerships, but more broadly within family.
It can be such a point of contention because you can fall in love with somebody who has very different values than you about money.
Also, I think our values evolve over time.
Right. When I was in my 20s, listeners might remember, I was married to somebody before I married Brian, my husband, my last husband, my husband, my final husband, as we think of him.
Yes. So I never had any money really all of my life until recent years after the success of Wild.
And in so many ways, I resented that growing up.
I had this chip on my shoulder about growing up poor and having this student loan debt and all of this stuff.
And I was at a dinner party with a dear friend of mine.
We were a bunch of couples.
And she took me aside.
My first husband was a musician and a political organizer.
And, you know, he had come from more money than I came from.
But together, we didn't have any money.
And it seemed he had no intention of making any ever.
That's the thing. And she pulled me aside and said, you might be okay with this now, but you're not going to be in a few years.
And, you know, she was wrong about that.
I never did turn into a person who felt like I needed my partner to provide me with lots of money.
But I think she was right about it for herself and right about it for a lot of people.
And that's the rub, especially with romantic love, is you fall in love with somebody and then you have to, in all these ways, assess whether you can actually live with them.
And what happens when your desires, your values, your means, are mismatched.
Will you read our first letter?
I sure will. Dear Sugars, the last two years have been the happiest of my life.
I'm easing into my 40s with a good career, a loving relationship, and for the first time ever, solid financial footing.
I grew up the oldest child of a single mother who got into bad relationships but was unable to leave because she had no way to support herself and her children.
My aunts, uncles, and grandparents would routinely step in to bail her out and take me and my sister off her hands for a while.
They were always very kind to us, but I felt like a charity case, and with that came shame that haunted me for years.
I've worked hard all of my life to become successful, independent, and self -sufficient.
I was always too afraid to put myself in what I perceived to be the vulnerable position of being a wife and a mother.
But two years ago, I met the kindest gentleman I've ever known.
He was patient with me, even when I was reluctant to commit.
Instead of getting angry or hurt, he vowed to love me on my terms.
He didn't demand that our relationship have a label or a contract.
Amazingly, his light, easy approach drew me even closer, and I found myself dreaming about a lifelong partnership with him.
I had never felt so cherished, adored, and at peace.
Then one day, I noticed the letters.
Past due. Attempts to collect debt, last and final notice.
I'm not proud of how I came to learn this, but the man I love owes over $150 ,000 in student loan and credit card debt.
He doesn't know, I know.
He continues to send me flowers and gifts, but instead of bringing me joy, they make me feel sick.
When we go out to dinner with friends, he always picks up the tab, which I know he can't afford.
Worst of all, I find myself less attracted to him now that I know about his financial situation.
He's emotionally available, kind, loving, and generous, but terrible with money.
Part of me wants to have a frank talk with him and help him get his financial house in order.
The other part wants to run away.
What should I do, sugars?
Signed, love or money?
So as you know, Cheryl, this is one of a genus of letters that we got that really revolved around the same theme, which was women who were deeply concerned about men who they found to be financially irresponsible and was really affecting their relationship and love and money.
I feel for you so deeply here because you're haunted by a past that you are in touch with.
And what strikes me about your letter is, you know, the circumstances here.
And I want to just point out a few things that might be helpful in thinking about the right path here, because I don't think it's either running away or having a talk with him about how to get his financial house in order.
I think there's a middle path.
The first is to recognize that when you say, I felt kind of like a charity case as a kid, that's something you really have in common with your boyfriend right now as he's existing.
Because part of the reason that he's hiding his debt from you is that he doesn't want to feel like a charity case.
And the problem here, I would say, Cheryl, isn't a problem of debt.
It's the problem of deceit.
It's problematic that your partner, Love and Money, has run up all this debt, but I believe he has enough good qualities, as you describe them, that if he were honest about it and if he knew what your particular history was, you guys could work through it.
And so rather than thinking about instructing him to get his financial house in order, I think the first step is to talk about your own history and your fears when it comes to money and the anxieties that you carry around.
And to get it all out into the open and say, look, you need to know the kind of childhood that I had and the role that money and economic insecurity played.
We can work through this.
We have enough good stuff to work through this, but we can't do that if around this issue, you're not honest with me because that hits my buttons in ways that you can't really know, but it's really causing me to not feel as much trust in you.
And you write that your lover vowed to love you on your terms.
And so you need to announce to him that those are your terms.
Well, I agree with a lot of what you said.
Ah, very, a lot. Note that, listeners.
But, you know, you're using this word deceit.
And I think if we really give this letter, you know, a very clear -eyed look, what we see here is actually somebody who may or may not be keeping this as a secret.
We know that he has the debt.
We know that he's generous with his money.
This isn't a situation, lover money, where your boyfriend is mooching off of you and expecting you to pick up the bill and pretending that he has money that he doesn't have.
What we have are two facts.
Well, he is pretending to have money that he doesn't have.
I disagree with you.
Yeah. You don't think picking up a big tab when you've got $150 ,000 in credit card and student loan debt isn't in some ways pretending to have money you don't have?
No. And you know why?
Tell me. That's what I did.
Brian and I, when I sold wild, we were in a wild amount of credit card debt.
I was very generous with my money, often picked up the tab when it was going on a credit card where there was already $20 ,000 on it that I could barely make that minimum payment on.
Can I just ask one thing just to push back a little bit?
Would you describe yourself as when you went out with friends, you always picked up the tab?
No, you know, that's what she's describing, that he always it feels compensatory, like he's got to show that he's got a lot of money.
I am saying, Steve, you know, we do not know if this man is deceiving her or not.
OK, so maybe maybe he's not actively deceiving.
Yeah. I mean, I will tell you that there is a kind of familiar trope that where there is a man who or a woman, somebody who is trying to conceal or in some ways distort their financial reality.
And that person is, you know, often, oh, you know, can I just borrow, you know, a hundred bucks, I'm going to get a check next week, and then that check never comes.
And there are clear signs of deception.
The only thing we know based on your letter, love, and money is that your boyfriend is very generous, probably to a fault, it sounds.
He has a lot of debt and doesn't always pay it on time.
Those past due notices do give me some cause for worry.
and he hasn't decided to share this part of his life with you.
You invaded his privacy by examining his mail and opening things you probably shouldn't have opened.
So it might feel like a deception, but we don't know that it is.
And so this is the piece of Steve's advice that I really think is extremely wise.
Begin the conversation and begin it not from a position of judgment and I'm going to help you get your financial house in order, but from, let's talk about money.
Let me tell you about my past, my history.
So, you know, what I encourage you strongly to do is try to the extent possible to set aside your judgment about his situation.
My husband and I weren't in deep debt because we were bad people.
We weren't in deep debt because we were irresponsible, though some people might say we were by doing things like picking up the tab.
And we weren't in debt because we thought that we were in a good situation.
It was the only way that we had to do things like keep health insurance for our kids.
That shame that you feel about your past, I relate to, I grew up poor, I was a charity case, I understand.
But I do think that, of course, you always have to remember, what piece of this are you projecting onto your boyfriend?
What piece of it is a story that's really more about you than him?
Yes. I would say two things.
One, you're right. in a sense this discussion needs to start potentially even or somewhere in there has to be an apology you notice the letters but then it's clear that you also open them and you're right that's an invasion of privacy and that's not an active act of deceit on the part of this guy you
you notice that in the letter and and so i want to i want to retract a deceit it sounds like too active i think he's feeling shame and i should just say for reference as i mentioned we get a lot lot of letters like this.
We got this letter from a woman who called herself, am I the breadwinner now?
And she wrote about her boyfriend who is a musician who squandered his money on gaming equipment while she's like working 70 hours a week.
She writes, is it wrong for me to try to teach my partner to be more responsible with his money?
I haven't laid out the ways he could save money because I'm afraid of hearing his excuses and making him feel bad.
Should I do it anyway?
We got a lot of letters that were sort of saying, should I have the financial planning discussion with my partner who's irresponsible with money and I think we agree on the idea you should have a discussion about money and what it means to each of you yeah and I just want to quickly say a quick word
about gender from your sponsors the patriarchy oftentimes men are socialized to associate their economic power with how they're regarded in the world and I think it's important to recognize that and to recognize that the reason that you don't know about the past due notices And the rest is by design,
because it might be that even though this guy's easygoing and loving and supportive, he doesn't want you to know that he's in debt.
Am I a breadwinner now uses that term, you know, I'm afraid of hearing his excuses and making him feel bad.
And I understand that because if a man is in debt or is financially irresponsible, there's a special stigma associated with it.
But you have to be honest when you feel anxiety or fear, especially love or money.
You come by that honestly.
And remember that there is no one value about money.
One person's idea of what's irresponsible is different from another person's.
And so I do think that that needs to be taken into account here, love or money.
You write part of me wants to have a frank talk with him and help him get his financial house in order.
And what I would say is stop at the first half of that sentence.
Have that frank talk with him that's not attached to your plan for his future.
That really what you're doing is being honest in the hopes that this will bring you to a deeper understanding, a deeper intimacy about yet another aspect of your lives.
Dear Sugars, I'm a 34 -year -old male professional married to a 28 -year -old woman.
My wife suffers from severe depression and anxiety.
In our five -year relationship, she's spoken openly about suicide, although she's never attempted.
She has panic attacks, to the point of pulling out hair and scratching scars into her arms.
She refused medication for a long time, though that has changed recently.
When we first got together, she was a teacher, though she quit to protect her health.
She started a small crafting business with my support.
She works at home, but she doesn't make any profit, and she does not contribute financially to our household.
She also doesn't have a plan for growth.
She asked me for both advice and full support, but she's crushed when I suggest that she should do anything differently.
I told her that although I can afford to support us both, I expected us to have a two -income household, even if she was only making minimum wage.
I've never been confrontational with her, but we've been fighting more and more, and each fight leaves her crying and feeling worthless and makes me not want to broach important subjects anymore.
I feel helpless and lost.
I feel like I want to leave.
I used to be a happy -go -lucky person and my significant other has evolved into a weight around my legs.
How do I shed this resentment without shedding her?
