The advice in this podcast is general in nature and does not constitute medical advice.
Always consult your doctor if you are concerned about your child's health.
We recommend always following the safe sleep guidelines.
In the spirit of reconciliation, Dr. Fallon and Dr. Law acknowledge the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and the continuation of cultural, spiritual and educational practices Have you ever woken up to your baby or toddler crying at 3am and wondered what on earth am I going to do now?
Well you're in good company.
Both Laura and I have hit the occasional roadblock with our children's sleep where despite our knowledge about sleep we've have had to sit ourselves down, go back to basics and begin to troubleshoot.
It happens to all of us.
So today we're going to address 10 brilliant questions that we have been sent from members of our SOMBAL Pediatric Sleep Clinic programs, because we know that you love to hear how other parents are managing and who knows, you might even find that someone else is experiencing the exact same thing as you.
So boil the kettle, put your feet up if you can, and let's dive in.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the SOMBAL Pediatric Sleep clinic programs created by us.
I'm Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway and we're the directors of Infant Sleep Australia.
Laura, we have survived another round of school holidays.
How was it for you?
Yes, it was fine. But I am, you know, we often say sleep loves structure, but I think Laura loves structure in general.
And during the holidays when we don't record the podcast and um yeah clinic days change everything feels all just a little bit out of whack so in some regards I'm quite pleased to be um back into term time again so that the structure can come back to my life how about you it's all about finding that balance isn't it like it I find it such a relief to have a break from just that it feels like you're on a bit of a treadmill mill with the school run and the school pickup and the doing things with the kids and juggling work and managing like all these crazy schedules it's nice to kind of just drop
that for a bit yes um but yeah it does raise other challenges like being able to record a podcast becomes incredibly difficult yes um yeah and of course yeah getting back into the rhythm again can be a bit hard as well um but yeah it's the first time I think we've ever taken two weeks in a row off the podcast but I think we really needed to like my family got absolutely hit with RSV how revolting is RSV oh my god we were so crook um so I yeah was coughing a lot didn't really have much voice um no but anyway it was still really nice to just kind of go to ground even though we were unwell and it
was very annoying um it's just kind of expect it in a Victorian winter don't you yes yeah and look I was still seeing families in um clinic on and off during in the holidays and um quite a few had to reschedule um due to sickness because i just you know i think a lot of families will um really sympathize with you fallon because you know knowing that you you had flu and then rsv and going through the whole household there are just so many sombel families in the same boat and it's i mean it's awful having sick children and it's just even worse when they're just babies and toddlers because at least
our ones are a bit older and they can take their Panadol and Nurofen and understand what's going on.
Yeah. Yeah. It's so true.
Yeah, and I saw a few clients over the past couple of weeks as well and it's like whiplash going from like full mum mode to then being like, oh, now I've got to be the sleep person again.
Yes. Put that hat back on again and help these poor, tired parents.
So it's like, oh, that shift from trying to switch hats is wild.
But yeah, it does get easier when the kids are older, for sure.
They're much happier to kind of make their own fun.
I got told off the other day, actually, thinking about the hats.
I got told off by my children because they asked me a question and I answered it.
And they said, mom, you just put on your professional voice to answer us.
And they were really disturbed by it.
Like this sounded like you sound like you're on one of your calls, mum.
Sorry about that. That's funny.
Did it whip them into gear?
Were they like, whoa, mum means business?
No, I don't think so.
There's always a hope, but no. Yeah, yeah.
Well, all of this chaos that we've had over the past couple of weeks has meant that our Nightwaking Masterclasses, masterclasses which we talked about in our last episode haven't quite launched yet i think trying to find time to record them was a bit beyond my capacity in the last couple of weeks um but they are coming really soon um which is really really exciting um and it has also meant that i have not even had a chance to go into our system and turn off our end of financial year sale just a lot of parents have taken advantage of that yes um there's been a lot of new members probably from parents
it's going what this sale is still going um it will end pretty soon too because um it has to but I've just got to actually sit down and do it um so yeah if you're thinking of joining definitely move quickly because I will be shutting that off pretty soon yes um but yeah so we've got a lot of parent questions to catch up on which made me think let's just do an episode where we really pick apart some of these great questions that have come through um what do you think Laura Laura.
Should we dive into those now?
Yeah. Shall I start off?
I'll read the first question from Miranda.
So Miranda has a four month old and is using the supported accelerated approach. She said that overnight it's working really well.
Her baby now falls asleep in the cot in 10 to 15 minutes and wakes only once overnight for a feed and resettles quickly, which is great.
um miranda says though that day naps are difficult she says that her baby cries for 20 to 30 minutes in the progress sorry in the cot with no progress um and your brain's still coming back on board it's just still switching on it's about 80 there sorry miranda so um so her baby cries for 20 to 30 minutes in the cot and no progress progress happens and she says that he also really dislikes the pram and the car crying immediately when placed in them.
So Miranda wonders if it's better to just use the carrier for naps instead of persisting with the cot settles which she finds really distressing.
What do you think? Oh I love this question.
I think it really comes down to parent goals and what you feel you can and manage as well.
So I think there's a case to be made for saying, oh, you know what, I'm finding it really distressing in the daytime and I'm just going to do contact naps in the carrier for a couple of weeks, give myself a break.
Then I'll address the day naps in the cot when I feel like I've got a bit more resolve and I'm really feeling sort of ready for it.
That would be a perfectly fine choice to make.
But if Miranda is thinking, you know, I'm so exhausted, I just need progress.
progress. I don't like doing carry -on naps.
I'd rather just, you know, my baby makes this adjustment to cot settling so I can have my hands free because that's a very valid need for parents as well.
Then you could absolutely take the opposite tack and say, you know what, I'm going to build the support up around me and for a few days, we're just going to really work on the cot settling and help him make a quicker adjustment.
That would be absolutely valid as well.
If you take that path, I would say look really closely at the daily rhythm because if he's upset for 20 or 30 minutes in the cot and even upset going in the pram or the car, I'm just wondering if this is a real FOMO baby who's like, no, I don't want to go to sleep.
I don't want to be stuck in the pram or the car.
I've got things to do.
It might be that this baby's naps can be pushed a little bit later.
They've just got to be a lot more tired to really fall asleep easily.
So if you do decide to persist with cot settling just make sure you've addressed that daily rhythm maybe push the naps a little bit later really let that sleep pressure build up so that you've got you know the easiest time possible and hopefully that cot settling will be you know a lot easier than what it has been miranda um what do you think laura yeah i think that's a um you know really sensible answer fallon um choosing your um goals miranda um and if you want to just carry on for the time being like felon says doing carrier naps um just ensuring that you're using the carrier safely and that your
baby's airways are um uh clear um that their chin isn't dropping down whilst they're in the carrier um and doing that whilst um you as felon says kind of recover and um then when the time is right make that switch to cot settling um yeah so good luck miranda um it sounds like your baby is linking lots of sleep cycles all through the night because they're only waking once so it doesn't look like the day naps are impacting the night time sleep currently so um in which case it would be fine to continue doing those contact naps if that's what you choose to do yeah it's great that the nights are going
so well that's really promising yeah Yeah.
Katie wrote in, she has a baby who is currently teething and waking every one to two hours overnight.
They've been sticking to a 6 .45am wake up despite the rough nights, but she's wondering if it's okay to let the baby sleep in a little when the poor sleep is due to teething.
What do you reckon?
Yeah, it can be. I think it's probably going to be a case of experimenting, Katie.
I'd would be of course ensuring that you're giving your baby all of the um pain relief that they need so speaking to your pharmacist about um panadol norepinephrine um and any um other strategies you could use um to ensure that their pain is under control and during the day giving them teethers to use um that have been cooled in the fridge for example to help relieve relieve some of the swelling and discomfort on the gums and then seeing okay even if the pain is under control they're still waking a lot you could give it a go and say perhaps if we move wake up to seven o 'clock or 7 15 see if that helps
everyone just get a little bit more more rest before those teeth pop out.
If you find that actually moving wake up a bit later results in even more wakings overnight, then we go, well, that experiment hasn't worked.
And actually, maybe the teething is a confounding factor.
Maybe actually your baby's sleep needs have changed a little bit.
Do that. I don't know how old your baby is, Katie, but I'm guessing at least six months?
Do they need to drop a nap?
Is the teething a red herring?
Is it actually that maybe your baby's on three or four naps and needs to drop down to two or three?
Is the wake up actually a little bit too late or the bedtime a bit too early?
So getting the pain under control first, I think is going to be the main factor and using the pain relief overnight as recommended by by your doctor or pharmacist, and then doing a bit of experimentation.
Move, wake up a bit later in the morning, see if it helps.
If it doesn't, then actually maybe the teething isn't the cause of those overnight wakes.
Do you have anything else that you would add?
No, I like the way you've approached that because there are parents we see who are like, oh, I thought it was teething for months and months and months, so we kind of, you know, didn't worry too much about sleep.
We're like, oh, when teething stops, you know, it'll be better.
um and then eventually i realized actually it's not really the teething like teething was part of it but you know teething pain usually doesn't go on for months and months and months so um i like the idea of having a bit of an experiment definitely using that pain relief so you can be confident that pain's not the factor um yeah it's a really good idea good luck katie it's really tricky yeah um okay we have a question from phoebe who has a four -month -old baby with a 13 -hour average sleep need and she's working out a good daily rhythm for him.
She's got two questions.
The first is about sleep cycle length.
She's not confident of this as he sometimes sleeps for 25 minutes and sometimes 35 minutes.
Phoebe splits the difference, 30 minutes, but her baby sometimes seems to be in deep sleep when she wakes him.
So she asks, is this okay?
and her next question is whether it matters if the naps vary in number, length and timing throughout the day as long as she caps them at three hours total and ensures a good wake window before bedtime.
Oh they're good questions aren't they Fallon?
Really good questions yeah absolutely so first of all my best estimate of Phoebe's baby's sleep cycle length would be it's probably probably 35 minutes.
The reason why they're sometimes waking at 25 minutes could just be that there's a bit of a noise or something going on that kind of woke them when they were in light sleep.
Doesn't mean that they were, you know, at the end of the sleep cycle at that 25 minute mark.
Um, so I'd probably, my best guess is it's 35 minutes, but have a bit of an experiment.
Um, you know, trial waking them at slightly different times.
And there'll be a time where you find them really easy to wake and less cranky about being woken up to um and that should really tell you exactly how long that sleep cycle is um so you can definitely keep having a bit of a play um in that regard and then with that second question so um does it matter if the naps vary in number length and timing if they're capped at three hours total um and there's a good long wake window before bed so this is kind of age dependent so I'm guessing that Phoebe's worked out three hours is what her baby needs for a good daily rhythm which is great at four months I
would say doesn't matter too much but I'd probably expect you know three or four naps per day if we're talking like five or six really tiny naps right across the day I would say try and dial that back a bit but often at four months you know when I see families in clinic we'll come up with a plan that's like you know might be three or four naps but this is the total amount of sleep per day um irrespective of how many naps there are and I would be saying just make sure that last wake window before bedtime is the longest one of the day um so yes for a young baby I would say yeah they can vary the naps
can vary in number and length a little bit and timing um but as a baby gets older I would start to become a little bit more rigid with that because certainly like a nine month old can't sometimes have two and sometimes have three naps that generally won't work well they really need to be on two um so I hope that helps Phoebe I think at four months of age you do still yeah you can have that little bit of flexibility um if you're noticing though nights are really really challenging you've got really persistent night waking problems then I would say okay let's trial and being a bit more predictable
in the daytime and see if that helps to yeah yeah i think that sounds like um really good advice fallon um so yeah hang in there phoebe um and yeah trial that 35 minute um nap um length um or um increments of so you'd be looking at maps around 35 minutes or an hour 10 ish and yes see how your little one gets on yeah yep excellent ria wrote in with a really interesting question so she has an 18 month old who bangs their head when frustrated during the day and now also at night he falls asleep independently at bedtime but can wake for long stretches at night for up to two hours and his head banging
audibly on the the cot rails sometimes leaving bruises Ria's unsure how to respond and what to do what do you think um yeah Ria headbanging can be um a behavior that we do see in toddlers when they're learning to regulate their emotions it's a general rule of thumb if we're seeing that headbanging is not resolving um and particularly in your um toddlers case Ria where it's actually increasing because because he's doing it during the day and doing it at night, general rule is to seek some advice from a pediatrician to double -check that there's nothing else going on.
Usually there isn't, but the fact that your little one is sometimes leaving bruises, so he is actually hurting himself, does warrant a little bit of investigation.
um try to avoid using cot bumpers um that can be something that um parents will um often want to use um some parents instead will um use a portacot whilst they're waiting for the investigations um because a portacot has the mesh sides um so a baby is less likely to hurt themselves themselves on the cot rails.
But yeah, I would be making an appointment with your GP, Ria, just to get that checked out.
What do you think, Fallon?
Yeah, I think headbanging is a really interesting one because it's that sort of often toddlers find it soothing, that repetitive kind of motion of it and the sensation of it as well.
So some toddlers will headbang to help themselves fall asleep and it's really not a problem.
They just do it for a little while it resolves and it's fine um but a general rule is if it is causing injury then just to investigate that there's not something else going on um and I'd also just be thinking too if he's having stretches of up to two hours awake overnight he might be feeling a lot of frustration um if he's having split nights he's wide awake potentially feeling very frustrated and annoyed he knows he needs to go to sleep but he just can't do it um so I'd look really carefully at that daily rhythm.
It might be that it's, you know, certainly he should be on one nap if he's 18 months old, is that nap really long?
Is bedtime really early?
That maybe we just need to use that unique sleep needs chapter to really iron out a daily rhythm that really fits this child's unique sleep needs.
And that might mean then those two hour wakes disappear and the head banging starts to reduce or even resolve.
So yeah, there's a couple of things to look into there, area but yeah great question love that question okay our next question is from nina um who sent a really um lovely email actually um fallen about how far um her family's come since joining sombel so thank you for those lovely words nina thanks nina it means the world yeah um so nina's toddler, 16 months old, with an 11 hour sleep need.
So he's made great progress, but is still waking one to three times overnight, sometimes for one to two hours after 2am.
He naps in the cot with patting and humming, which they haven't consistently faded out just yet.
He's had a bumpy umpy start with his physical health, and Nina describes him as a very sensitive toddler.
They cap his nap at one hour, even though his sleep cycle length is 40 minutes, in order for him to be able to have a 10 -hour stretch overnight.
So Nina wonders if she should extend the nap to two cycles, which would be an hour 10 minutes, minutes uh would have been our 20 minutes yeah even though this means he'll have a later bedtime and she also asks how to reduce those final overnight wakes oh it's a bit of a complicated one isn't it so yeah where to begin i love that you know you've done all this work and you've come so far nina it's absolutely fantastic so definitely you know there could be, it could be a really good idea to start to phase out the patting and humming.
I mean, it could be that, you know, he's waking one to three times overnight, kind of going, where are you?
Come back over here and give me those pats.
And I want to hear that humming.
So by phasing that out, we might then end up with a toddler who wakes up, goes, yep, everything's exactly as it was when I fell asleep.
No one's patting or humming, but that's fine.
And then he'll start to resettle himself.
So definitely would work on that.
You mentioned that he's very sensitive so that's where it's definitely worth weighing up so with sensitive kids sometimes a really gradual phase out of hands -on support works beautifully and other times it drives them crazy and they hate it and actually they would cope better with one change to just not having the padding and the humming and make making one big adjustment that's well supported you still be giving lots of support and that sort of thing but have a bit of a think if it might actually be easier he might be the sort of child where the nights just won't improve until we've we're phased
out that hands -on support um then in terms of the nap so if he's being woken up mid -sleep cycle he's probably pretty cranky when he wakes so i think we want to try and match the length of the nap to the length of the sleep cycle whether it's going for 40 minutes which is not a lot of sleep in a day for a 16 -month -old, or trialling the one hour and 20 minutes and just seeing, like have a bit of an experiment, see what he does better with.
Some toddlers are absolute FOMO toddlers and they love having a short nap and it suits them really well and the nights are wonderful.
So if he's like that, that actually could be great.
But you might find you make that nap a bit longer, push bedtime a little bit later, and actually that's what really fits him well.
so the only way to really figure that out is to choose one way of doing it do it consistently for a week see how the night's been out um if it doesn't go well try the other way and you'll get a bit of a sense of which option um is preferable yeah um so i think that's probably it really thinking about yeah that total sleep requirement um making sure you know it adds up to 11 hours and also just making sure we've got the independent settling skills developing there there as well um but it is a bit of a complicated one could be that a coaching call is a good idea nina just so i can check in about what those
physical challenges were um so if you are a bit stuck it's something we could definitely have a chat through but what do you think laura there's a lot to unpack in there have i missed anything yeah there there is no i think you gave a really comprehensive answer it does sound like those wakes are quite extended if and i know anina's longer email um it was about half the time three or four nights a week he's up for one to two hours in the night so that's often we see that when the sleep pressure isn't quite high enough to to support our babies and toddlers to maintain their sleep for long stretches.
So those, yeah, those extended wakes would be thinking, first of all, are all of those physical issues ruled out?
Is there anything going on medically that might be accounting for those long wakes If all of those underlying issues have been resolved, then we are thinking about sleep pressure, really.
Because even if your little one was waking up startled because you are no longer there when you had been there, when he fell asleep, that's a very long time to stay awake once you're back over with him.
You know, two hours would be a lot.
That is a long time.
we're doing the patting and the humming so um yeah it may be Nina that a coaching call would be helpful but don't if you don't want to do a coaching call of course that's fine as well but don't be worried that uh late bedtime is going to do any harm so you know sometimes um as parents we will have a time in our head you know for some parents it's like bedtime cannot be past seven o 'clock and for others it's you know bedtime can't be past eight o 'clock or wake up cannot be any earlier than 7 30 in the morning and these are just arbitrary times and we know when we look at sleep across cultures there's
a whole range of bedtimes it's really culturally driven um so if you're thinking that eight o 'clock is just too late and anything beyond that is going to do damage or that just remember that that's an arbitrary time for our culture so if your child actually needs an 8 30 bedtime because he does have a low sleep need that's okay you're not going to do him any harm it's actually going to ensure that he's able to have all of that sleep in one stretch overnight without having a split night for example if it is a sleep pressure issue yeah it's such a good point laura and i couldn't help but giggle
a bit because i'm thinking about my own children their their expectations around their own bedtimes and how you know even knowing what i know it took me a staggeringly long time to realize that my eldest needed a later bedtime like just didn't have the probably 11 hour sleep need i wanted him to have which is kind of unrealistic for a child who's entering their teen years yes so i had to adjust my expectations a little bit there um but But it is, yeah, it's worth doing it.
And I love that you're talking about the, yeah, the kind of arbitrary nature of how our societies do kind of, you know, I think for babies it's always like, oh, they've got to go to bed at seven.
Like who says? That's wild.
And a lot of cultures, bedtimes are 10 or 11 p .m. for babies even.
So, yeah, you're the parent.
You can make the call.
To hell with society and what they think.
You're in the driver's seat.
Until they start school.
And then suddenly we actually do have to, we can't say to hell.
yeah school changes everything that's for sure wow we've done five questions we've got five to go i don't even know whose turn it is okay one out but shall i read out nicole's question all right so nicole has an 11 and a half month old with a 12 hour sleep need they're having 10 and a half hours overnight and two 45 minute naps in the day since dropping the post -nap breastfeeds he seemed crankier after his naps and sometimes dozes during feeds later on nicole wonders if his total sleep need may be higher than she'd worked out as perhaps he was dozing during the post -nap feeds and she hadn't realized
so she's wondering should she add more sleep to his naps um she also adds i feel hesitant to do this because he's starting to take longer to to fall asleep for his naps over 10 minutes sometimes 15 to 30 minutes and it's almost seemed like he was preparing to move to one nap and she says his night's sleep has been largely unaffected hmm what do you reckon um gosh all of these questions are so good today and so tricky now 11 and a half months um so getting to the point where yeah he may well drop down to one nap soon but very uh if we think about when that typically happens there's that wide range
of normal so it could say anywhere between 12 months and often 16 or 17 months of age that babies drop down to one nap so um i like that nicole had noted that he was starting to take longer to fall asleep for his naps as being one of the signs that he may be ready to move to one that but it would be very early to be doing that um and not outside the realms of possibility um but the fact that he seems a bit cranky i think this is going to be a case perhaps we need to call this um this episode experimenting shalon i wonder if um we let me think about this so So she's wondering if actually he was sleeping
a bit longer. So I wonder, does that mean that his sleep cycle length might be a little bit longer than 45 minutes?
If he was, no, probably not.
How much more would she extend the nap to?
If we were to keep on two naps.
See, I just wouldn't.
My initial thinking is don't make the naps longer when he's showing signs that he could be warming up to actually dropping because it's taking up to half an hour yeah i would be thinking if he's really cranky like you're just like he's clearly tired he's cranky every day all day like it's just really hanging around this crankiness i would say add a little bit of extra sleep to the night like maybe 30 minutes longer at night which might then just mean that the naps get pushed later even more so so it might not be helpful but you could i mean even if it's just 15 minutes more to of the night excuse
me you might find then his mood's a little bit happier and he can get through the day okay i just feel reluctant to make a nap longer when he's already i think if you make the nap longer you won't fit that second nap in he'll just know because we've gone through to bedtime yes and how much longer would you make it if because if he's waking up himself after 45 minutes which i'm guessing he is um then if we were to make the nap longer it would need to be be an hour and a half yeah it would be because we'd want him to have two sleep cycles in which case yeah it's going to be impossible to fit that second
nap in so um yeah I think you're on the money there Fallon so Nicole I would be keeping the two naps at 45 minutes and then moving either moving bedtime earlier or wake up um later and by either 15 minutes or half an hour um and see if if that improves things.
And look, it may be it does and in another month the signs begin again and then you move him to the one nap and then that one nap will be roughly an hour and a half.
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's probably the way to go.
I think we just really clearly demonstrated how complicated some of these sleep problems can be and how it takes some unpacking, doesn't it?
Yeah, it does. You can have two practitioners with, you know, a heap of experience but yeah you still got to really think it through so yeah if you're a parent who's struggling with these things it's like very understandable because even we sometimes go hmm what would we do with this one um let's see how you go nicole if it's really challenging you know we're here to support you because i mean another question or you know have a coaching call if you're feeling really lost um but yeah look sometimes as they approach dropping an app it's just challenging like it is just harder for a little while
and then they make that transition and it it does get easier so yeah fingers crossed that's the case for nicole okay so sharon has written in and sharon has a 10 week old as well as a toddler and is um using the quick fade approach i wonder if that's actually quick tapered approach um she's using the little baby um the little baby program um so oh sharon describes a real predicament fallon she says that her 10 week cold has started to roll so Sharon has had to unswaddle him which is the right choice to make yeah and during the day nap Sharon says she often cannot settle him in the cot as he keeps
startling and waking himself up with his hands even if she gets him to sleep in her arms and transfers him she ends up giving him naps in the carrier which she describes as exhausting with a a toddler in tow night's sleep has also worsened sharon asked for tips on cot settling a young baby with arms out for both naps and overnight what do you think oh it is so hard when you've got a little baby and a toddler i remember those days very blurry memories of those days because it is so hard um yeah sharon it's so hard when they're physically really capable really young so you absolutely needed to unswaddle
him even though he still has that startle reflex that can wake up little babies um you know we want to put his safety first so you've absolutely done the right thing um and i think this is one of those points where it's actually really similar to the question we had earlier where you sort of have to decide do i want to tackle this now do i go all in or do we just wait a little bit and take it the easy road um and then address this later on um So there's a case to be made for going, you know what, I mean she describes as being absolutely exhausted doing naps in the carrier and I don't blame her.
I hated doing naps in the carrier.
It was just, it wasn't for me.
It can feel really just like you're just not getting enough time to yourself and sometimes it's not comforting to constantly have your baby on you and that's perfectly valid and fine.
If you're finding that too hard, you could just go all in with the cot settling.
I would be, I mean the things that you could do, you could um put your hand over his hand so put his hands on his chest and you rest a hand on him to help stop that startle from happening um but you've got a toddler so you might not be able to do that you might need to go and tend to their needs as well um look I think it's a case of if you're going to go along with cot settling build those supports in around you it might be a few tricky days where you're persisting with the cot settling knowing that once he adapts to it and gets used to it even if he does startle he'll put himself back to sleep
again um that could be worth it um so that you've got more time free for your toddler or for yourself um or if you think gosh that just sounds way too challenging i can't do that right now um you can absolutely keep going with the carrier naps or do some pram naps or car naps whatever's going to make it easier in i mean in another couple of weeks you're going to see a big change in your baby's circadian rhythm them um they're going to build up sleep pressure you know the longer they're awake um over the next month or so things should start to get easier and then you might feel a bit better able
to work on cot settling um so it's probably not the clearest answer but i think it's not it's just simply not that straightforward with really little babies um it can be really tough in this phase but over the next month generally things do start to come together so i hate to say you know hang in there but hang in there yes yeah it is just really bloody hard it is it's so hard what would your advice be the only thing that i would add fallon is sharon if you do decide to go all in um and use that quick tapered approach um to do cot settling during the naps and overnight would be be to think about how
to keep your toddler entertained whilst you are temporarily unavailable to them.
And I don't know the age of your toddler, Sharon, but if they're closer to three than to two, I'd be thinking about using some kind of reward chart so that explaining to your toddler that you're going to be in the room with the baby and they get a sticker if they sit quietly and play a game or watch their favourite episode of their favourite show, you know, use that screen time as a tool to occupy your toddler whilst you are in with your little one and then they might get a sticker and then some nice special play time with just you and them.
where you do whatever they are interested in.
So totally child -directed play whilst your little baby is having a nap.
So that's one thing to think about.
Another thing is do you have friends or family that could come over to keep your toddler entertained whilst you were doing the cot settles?
And what other things could we think about?
So reward systems, using your screen time as a tool, thinking about any particular activities that your toddler might really enjoy doing that they can do whilst they're not in your sight.
So it might not be coloring with marker pens because you don't want your walls covered in markers, but maybe it's magnetic tiles or something that they can't do too much harm with.
or just thinking about having friends or family over to look after them whilst you're in with your baby and know that it's just for a short period of time and this is just if you go all in with the cot settling if you decide that now isn't the time that's also a valid choice to make yeah 100 another thing a lot of parents do and they say you know for some it really helps is getting a baby doll for your toddler so they're settling their baby doll while you're settling your baby and you can make a bit of a game of it like oh your baby's quiet already my baby is still cranky you know like just making
them sort of part of that settling process obviously depends on the baby if the baby is a real wide -eyed FOMO baby then having their sibling anywhere near the cot during settling might not be helpful yes but it's something to think about in case yeah you've got got a toddler who wants to be involved yes yeah awesome all right well now let's move on to elizabeth who wrote in with an update on her nine month old who was waking early for the day from 4 30 a .m elizabeth says that now they've moved bedtime to 8 p .m it's resulted in much improved mornings um where their little one's waking at 6 or 7
a .m so that is terrific yeah so good yeah You're probably feeling a lot more human these days.
She says, however, she started at daycare where she only takes two 30 -minute naps, needing a third in the car to get her through until bedtime.
So Elizabeth is keen on advice for supporting better naps at daycare.
Okay, well, we do know that sleep can go a bit wobbly when a baby or toddler starts at daycare.
um so it is to be expected some um adjust really easily but the majority have a little bit of a wobble for the first few weeks um and as long as the nighttime sleep isn't falling over elizabeth there's no need to change um uh anything in this transition period you know if you're finding that on the day she's at daycare she has that third nap um uh but sleeps well still forced to sleep easily and sleeps through the night then carry on doing it however at nine months old I suspect that wouldn't that that it might actually be affecting the nights so I would be thinking about rather than um giving
your baby a full 30 minute nap in the car on the way home um I would be just giving them a power nap.
So 15 or 20 minutes instead.
So it's not an entire sleep cycle, just takes the edge off the sleep pressure to get them through until bedtime.
And then they're more likely to be able to sleep well at night.
And then with a little bit of practice, their circadian rhythm will soon catch on to the fact that even when they're sleeping somewhere different at daycare than at home they will the circadian rhythm will allow them to do the full longer nap at daycare so really thinking about it being two naps still at daycare and then a little power nap if it's only been two short naps at daycare and potentially even moving bedtime a little bit earlier on those nights initially and then after a week or two then that power nap will probably fall away on the daycare days as they begin to be more comfortable sleeping
there and have longer naps at daycare.
And then you'll be back to just the two -nap rhythm, normal bedtime on daycare days and non -daycare days.
Did you have anything to add, Fallon?
Only that it's so common that at first they take these really short naps at childcare and usually they will start to have decent naps.
I would just say that if it doesn't happen and if those short naps persist, you might find that you're better off moving to two short naps on the home days as well and lengthening the night instead so that there's some consistency there.
But I wouldn't rush into that.
I would see how things go across the next few weeks and hopefully they settle in really well.
And yeah, they'll be on track and all good without that little third nap in the car.
Yeah. Okay. So Angela has written in, and she has a two -year, four -month -old toddler who sleeps from 8 .15 at night until 6 .15 in the morning and has an hour and a half nap.
On some days, he's beginning to wake earlier for the day or taking longer to fall asleep.
So Angela asks whether to wait for consistent early mornings before trimming the nap further.
further her toddler also now only naps on the go not in the cot and angela wonders if that's typical at this age i love this these are really are great questions they are they're really good good so so good um i think angela's noticing that wobbliness starts to happen when they're getting close to dropping a nap so um those signs being sometimes they're taking longer to fall asleep.
Sometimes they're waking earlier and now they're only really napping on the go.
So they're only wanting to nap if there's like movement and yeah, like that's really common to see.
Look, you could wait longer and kind of see how they go, but I would say you're seeing those warning signs that the daily rhythms are getting a bit wobbly.
I'd probably be inclined client to cut the day nap in half down to just a 45 minute nap at this point.
Um, you don't need to completely drop the nap, um, definitely trim it down to one sleep cycle first. And then often they keep that nap for a little longer.
It might be a few months if you're lucky.
Um, and then you'll notice the same wobbliness again, and that'll be a sign that they're getting ready to completely drop the day nap.
Yeah. So look, it's your call and whether you do it now or wait a bit bit longer but I would imagine over time that wobbliness will probably become you know bigger yes it's like when you're riding your bike and you're a kid and it starts to wobble and it just gets worse and worse and then crash I feel like that's what it's like for these toddlers when they show these signs they tend to just amplify but you know you can absolutely see how you go but I would just cut that nap down to the one sleep cycle and that kind of goes for any baby be your toddler that's getting ready to drop a nap often rather
than just dropping a nap it might be that you just drop it down to one sleep cycle and it just keeps them in that room a bit longer then when the signs come back you know they drop it yeah yeah yep and it's fine that they're having naps on the go often at this age it's really handy because you've got lots of things you want to go out and do and that they also want to do so doing that nap on the go is fine yeah and if it's only 45 minutes then that's even better because you're not having to sit in the car whilst they finish finish their nap and the good news is angela then you'll be able to add
45 minutes to the overnight sleep as long as their sleep needs staying the same so and that's always a big question isn't it sometimes they drop the day sleep down because they're ready they're because they've got a lower sleep need and other times they still have the same sleep requirement so you can just add it to the night and we never know which way they're gonna go so you've just You've just got to give it a whirl.
Back to the experimenting.
Yeah. Yep. And that's just how it is.
And so often in sleep, that is the answer.
Like, you know, you're going to find a lot of people online who will give you these really firm, like it has to be done this way, big red flag because there's always going to be a bit of like assessing the child, the situation, the parents.
There's so many factors that drive these things.
yeah and lucky last we have a question from bella so bella has a six month old who wakes upwards of five times between 7 p .m and 10 p .m oh and then every two hours overnight oh that's a shocker you poor thing bella yeah bella says he naps for 90 minutes total each day they've concluded that his bedtime is too early and his wake windows need to be stretched out longer However, they're worried if depriving their baby of sleep or keeping them awake for longer, which would be sort of four or four and a half hours at a time, they're wondering if that can cause harm or if the worst consequence is just
temporary grumpiness.
Another absolutely brilliant question.
Yeah, it is such a good question, Bella.
Look, no, it's not.
Having those slightly longer wake windows is not going to cause harm.
arm um we know that sleep deprivation which is not having as much sleep as you need chronically is harmful for humans but when we're looking at um a snapshot of time with a little baby so bella you've got a six month old um you are offering your six month old all the sleep that they need and they're not able to maintain their sleep so you're actually not taking it they're not not taking overnight they're like no i don't want it don't want it even though it's exactly you are not depriving your child of sleep so put that out of your mind you are giving your little one so much sleep opportunity overnight
that they can't take it they are waking so many times overnight it may and look i'm just going to do a little backtrack there because it may not be that they they can't take it.
It may be because the way that they are falling asleep is hands on.
And then every sleep cycle, they are waking up to say, Oh, where have you gone?
My sleep associations are no longer here.
However, the fact that it's five times in that first stretch of the night, when we expect that to be where the deep sleep happens, is telling me sleep pressure is probably not quite high enough for your little one to be able to get that run of deep sleep before they wake.
So ordinarily we would see at least two or three hours before babies start to wake if their sleep pressure is high enough at the start of the night.
And that's even if they are given a lot of support to fall asleep, maybe they're completely fed and rocked to sleep.
If sleep pressure is where it needs to be, they'll still do, yeah, two, three, four hours of solid deep sleep.
And then they they start to wake up going, where did you go?
What happened? The fact that this baby's not even getting that long stretch of deep settled sleep means the absolute best thing Bella can do for her baby is to start stretching out the day's sleep so that night's sleep improves.
So they can get that long stretch of restorative sleep.
So I think you're absolutely on the right track, Bella.
No need to be worried.
Your baby's showing multiple signs that they really need to push more of their sleep into the night time dial back the day's sleep and you'll just you should notice some really big improvements um that will be so beneficial for your baby and you as well because I don't know how you're coping with that many night wakes that's really extreme yeah so a consequence of working on that daily rhythm will be temporary grumpiness Bella like you've identified so um what we are doing is kind of drawing a line in the sand and saying okay this This current daily rhythm that we're using isn't working for your
baby. So we're going to use a new daily rhythm, which will involve your little one being awake for longer stretches during the day.
And that's going to initially be on the back of poor night's sleep.
So they will be a bit cranky.
But then what will happen is they'll start to do longer stretches overnight, which means that they will cope better during the day with those longer wake windows.
So it's only very temporary that this grumpiness will last for.
once your little one is doing really good night's sleep.
And having those lovely long stretches of sleep, they'll cope better during the day.
And at that point, you can say, Do you know what, I'm going to add a bit more sleep.
Yeah, as we always say, once we have our babies and toddlers sleeping really well, we add a bit more sleep to the daily rhythm just to see if they can take it.
And so we might add an extra 30 minutes during the day or overnight.
And you see, okay, now is your baby able to take that extra sleep if they can brilliant you can try adding a bit more but as soon as they start to not be able to maintain their sleep overnight again they start to have these overnight wakes or they start waking early for the day or it starts to take them too long to fall asleep then we go oh right we just shave it back um go back to the schedule that worked yeah that's right so um yeah hang in there bella i think you and your partner have made the the right conclusion um and now um yeah I hope that this little pep talk gives you the courage and the confidence
to um to put the schedule into place yeah and look being caught in that cycle of you know you have a terrible night with your baby and then they wake up and of course they want to nap all day because they're so tired from a terrible night and then they nap too much and then the next night's terrible and like it's just like this horrible cycle that goes on and on it can feel so challenging at that point of exhaustion to be trying to make these big changes that are really hard. So surround yourself with support.
And I think this is one of the tougher things that parents have to navigate during infancy.
If you are really struggling with that or you just don't have confidence in the daily rhythm that you're trying to implement, again, it's a really good type of scenario for a coaching call so that we We can look at the pattern in that diary and really establish how do we best structure the day and the night so that we can just hit the ground running, get this circadian rhythm sort of upheaval all sorted and evened out.
And then often that just opens the doorway for any changes you need to make to settling.
Once you've really nailed that daily rhythm and you've got that great sleep pressure overnight, working on independent settling becomes a whole lot easier if that's your goal because, of course, it's not everybody's goal.
yeah amazing these were just the best questions I think we couldn't have picked a better episode to just really focus in on a bunch of parent questions because they are absolutely fantastic so thank you so much to the SOMBEL members who submitted those questions if you would like to submit questions of your own please do it is for members only so if you're not a member consider joining up with SOMBEL you can benefit from a huge library of resources videos all that amazing stuff we're pumped into sunbell um but you can also submit questions to the podcast and you can also um skip our waiting list
for the clinic and come in for a coaching call um if you need it not everybody needs them we've worked out i think around about 10 of people who join sunbell end up needing that higher level of support 90 of parents find they don't need it which is amazing it tells us that the program is working yeah um so yeah do keep in mind the program's there to to help you.
I'll pop a link in the show notes as well.
If you'd like to buy us a coffee, we always love that.
But yeah, have a great week, everyone.
And you'll hear from us again next week for our 100th episode.
How exciting. Thanks, everyone.
Bye bye. If you need help with your baby or toddler's sleep or settling, you need Sombel.
Sombel is Australia's first online pediatric sleep clinic program for babies and toddlers aged zero to three years.
It contains all the best resources from the sleep clinics at Infant Sleep Australia, so you can rest easy and soak in your child.
To find out more, click the link in the show notes or visit sombel .infantsleep .com .au.
