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Hey weirdos, I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is Morbid.
We are back with more Lizzie, guys. What the fuck is up?
What the actual fuck is up? This time we are recording from the safety of our pod lab aka Elena's laundry room and I have never been happier to be here. even though this house was also from the 1800s.
But do you know what? I rarely feel spook spook vibes here.
I feel like any spook spooks I feel in here are very like pleasant spook spooks.
Yeah, they're just spooks. I just dig them.
I'm into them. We co-exist here in this haunted house. we do we cohabitate with our spook spooks so that's fine we don't cohabitate well we do but but it freaks me out Yeah, you can get some scary vibes in there, but not in here.
In here, it's nice and pleasant. Yeah. But you know what was not pleasant?
We... Well, I personally... was like really invested in this one case that happened to come to a really bummer ending this week.
And I just wanted to briefly talk about it.
I can't let myself get into cases like this because I always know. that it's never gonna end how i want it to i don't know why i held out so much hope for this one i think i like so this is the case of camille mckinney I'm sure a lot of you were also following this case because I know a lot of you were tweeting about it with me.
And this kind of went like crazy on Twitter.
People were really hoping. that this absolutely beautiful and precious three-year-old from Birmingham, Alabama was going to be found alive and well.
Unfortunately, that was not the case. She was missing.
I believe it was October 12th. She was gone for 10 days. even though 10 days went by, I was still holding out hope that they were going to find her or that like, you know, you just, I don't know, wishful thinking on my part.
Well, you always hope for the best, especially in a case like this.
Exactly. And she was just so precious. I was like, please find this precious little baby.
Okay. it's unfathomable to me in cases like this it really is and she was i think what really got me is um i'm sure a lot of you saw the um surveillance footage that was shot outside of the birthday party where she was abducted from.
And the surveillance footage shows two people walking by her and another little girl. and one person walks by the next person walks by and starts talking to the little girls and then they follow him out of the frame And watching that scene, I mean, I have three and a half year old twins watching this little three year old.
Just walk off with this guy. My heart sank into my toenails.
I swear. It like... it's playing over and over in my head now knowing because she was found yesterday Not alive and in a dumpster.
Not far from where she was abducted. It is the most fucked up place that you can put a human, let alone a fucking child.
Just throwing her away like trash just really gets me.
And now seeing that CCTV footage of her just... just bouncing out of the frame with this stranger and now knowing how it ended, it like... it's gut-wrenching that's the only way i can describe it is it's gut-wrenching to watch now And they did arrest two pieces of absolute fucking shit.
That they think did this... One of them is Patrick Stallworth... And the other was Derek Arisha Brown...
And both of them, as far as I'm concerned, can fucking... be terrorized in prison for the rest of their lives.
150,000%. Like they might go for the death penalty for them, which honestly, I'm not.
I think we've said before, I'm definitely in a gray area with the death penalty.
I don't really stand on either side. I think I take it case by case.
Me too. I could get down with the death penalty for them because I want them to die.
Oh no, I want them to suffer every single fucking day of their lives.
That's kind of where I am now, though. I'm like, you know what?
Every single second of every single day.
I hope that you feel like an ingrown toenail.
Exactly. I hope... That hemorrhoids ravage them for the rest of their days.
Canker sores, even. Both. I want them to have hemorrhoids in the south and cankers in the north all day, air day. till the end of days and I hope they both live to be 120 years old and they just feel that all day, every day. can only have orange juice because orange juice makes canker sores worse it's true and i hope that they i hope they have fucking ravenous heartburn Absolutely.
Every day. Every day. So... And gas pains.
And gas pains, exactly. Basically... This is an awful story.
We will cover it at some point because I... Although I don't like to cover... child cases as we've said a million times before and we don't really cover a lot of them we will hit ones that i think and that ash thinks are important to tell the story.
Usually we feel some kind of connection to it.
And Camille just... like tore my heart out so i feel like her story absolutely needs to be told and we will tell it at some point but we're going to tell it when we have more information because right now we don't have any information we don't know anything about what happened there I I'm horrified to find out, but eventually we will.
So I just wanted to let everybody know that, you know, that will come into a future podcast.
And that it's a real bummer. But now that we've talked about that awful scenario.
I think we should talk about Lizzie. I think you mean Lizbeth?
I do mean Lizbeth. Sorry, I got remiss because we're not in her home anymore.
Well, don't be remissing because you don't know what we brought back here.
Oh, girl. Just kidding. I don't love that.
I'm just saying to you. Well, I think when we last left you, Lisbeth was being arrested.
For the murders of Abby Borden and Andrew Borden.
Yeah, and she was inappropriately dressed at the funeral.
She was. Quite like you. Me too, sis. So right before she was arrested, what led to her arrest was that there was five days of closed inquests where she had to take the stand every single day. she didn't take the stand a lot during her actual trial but during these inquests she had to Now, the issue that really came from it was that no one could account for where the hell Lisbeth actually was during the murders.
Was she in the barn? Was she picking pears?
Was she ironing handkerchiefs? was she fucking churning butter was she painting a still life photo of a pile of pears yes Was she using one of those old-timey spinning hoop things that people used to run around with for fun?
I don't know. None of her answers were matching with Bridget's who had testified earlier.
And Bridget gave like concise, consistent testimony.
Never changed for a second. She was like by the way my fucking name isn't Maggie.
Exactly. It's me Bridget and I'm here to tell you what the fuck is up.
It's me, Bridget. I'm here. I got the goods.
Listen to me. Straight up with Bridget. The 411 with Bridget.
Bridget's podcast Bridget's podcast Moody's point I love it.
So basically what was happening was Bridget gave all this testimony about what she was doing and what she saw Lizzie doing.
And Lizzie's was never lining up with that.
And Lizzie couldn't even keep track of her own stories that she was telling.
She was on hella morphine. She was. But it's it's curious that she would say a story and then they would ask her the same question literally a minute later just to confirm. and she would give a different one so it was like yeah but you literally just said this 10 seconds ago like how are you already giving a bad she's like because i'm high out of my face right now i am on a space level right now i am intergalactic right now guys chilling on mars Again, Bridget and Lisbeth were the only two technically in the area in the house when Abby and Andrew were murdered.
And technically, I think Lizzie was really the only one in the house.
Bridget was outside washing windows most of the time.
So this is when John Morris was interviewed.
Now, if you remember, John Morris was the maternal uncle of Lizzie and Emma.
So Lizzie's and Emma's birth mom's brother.
Exactly. And he had I mentioned this in the first episode, but if you forgot.
He had been staying with the family for a couple of days doing business shit with Andrew.
He had woken up that morning and he had left to go visit relatives.
He had a really weirdly detailed recollection of the morning.
An hour. Yeah, he got himself out of the house way before the murders and he did before even breakfast.
Yeah, he didn't even eat breakfast with them.
He peaced. Which is interesting. I believe he even peaced before Andrew left for work.
So he was out of there. At least we have that and we know that.
But he said he was visiting relatives from nine to close to noon that day.
And he remembered things like the number of the street carriage he took. the words and the number on the conductor's hat of the train that he was taking.
And he also remembered the names of six priests that he chatted with on board. the carriage very interesting now he never gave the names of the priests but he said he remembered them i mean that's just a thing You would think the follow-up question would be... What are their names?
No. Now, of course, they were thinking at times that, like, his answer seemed... weirdly detailed and he seemed to know exactly where he was at every second of that moment when they were being killed.
But they could never tie anything to him.
So they really didn't go further with it because I mean, maybe he just really wanted to make sure that they knew that he wasn't anywhere near there. um the judge declared her probably guilty i would say you're like a solid eight out of ten guilty yeah like you yeah you're slightly guilty i feel Probably definitely guilty.
Yeah, I'm going to say probably guilty on this one.
And that's when she was officially arrested on August 11th.
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So once she was arrested, she was sent to jail like a legit criminal would be.
And she spent nine months in a very tiny cell.
That's a long time. I don't like that. Especially for some high class broad that was used to living in a big fancy house with servants and shit.
Now she's living in a tiny cell in the county jail.
When they came to arrest her, they said she was chill as fuck.
No emotion was just like, yep, sure. They offered to read her the arrest warrant. when they arrested her and she was like no i don't need to waste my fucking time because i think she was like i know i know what you're here for because i murdered my parents it's cool After being arrested, family members of hers did start talking, and some of them said that they thought she and John Morris were responsible together.
So there were family members that were like, yeah, she probably did it.
There were also all kinds of protests on the other side, though.
And Remember she was involved with many charities and groups like we talked about.
She fucking taught Sunday school. she did she was a sunday school teacher all of these groups backed her initially because they were like no she couldn't have done this These groups also claim that she was not going to have a fair trial because women weren't allowed to serve on juries at that time because only those with voting rights were able to serve. we were not given voting rights for quite some time that's a bunch of bullshit exactly Now, this made me think of in the Lizzie Borden house.
There's a photo in the sitting room. Yeah. of the jury for her trial.
And they all went down to like a, like picture people and, And they all sat and got themselves a fucking group photo of the jury.
And then didn't they give it to Lizzie as a gift?
Yeah, they gave it to her as a gift. It's the most bizarre shit I've ever heard.
And when you look at the photo, you're just like, huh.
What's what's what's odd here? And it's just not a single fucking woman.
It's just a bunch of fucking old white dudes just all smiling on the jury.
Having a grand old time. Yeah, it's great.
It's definitely a fair trial. Now, the trial began June 5th, 1893 in New Bedford.
And there were very divided opinions all around.
Some people thought she was super guilty and they were 100% sure that she was guilty.
And then some people were like, no way is she guilty.
And there were all kinds of reasons behind this.
It was the original OJ trial. It really was.
It was really intense. Totally kidding. It totally was.
It was that kind of vibe, though. It was that kind of, like... really severe opinions on either sides like no gray area I don't think anyone sat in the middle and was like maybe I don't know they were like either yay or nay i kind of sit in the middle of this case i lean and i will just actually you know what i'm going to wait till the end because we'll talk about what we really think at the end Um, but basically the defense was that there was no real murder weapon that they could tie to the crime because all the hatchets and things that they were given from the house.
They said there was no blood on them, but let's think about this for a second.
It's 1893. They don't have luminol. Yeah.
They don't have any of these tests to determine.
So if she just simply wiped that blade clean...
There's no blood on there. You don't see it.
It's not there. That is true. So there could have been fucking copious amounts of blood on there and she just wiped that shit clean.
So there's no murder weapon that they can tie to the crime without a doubt.
And they also were going off of the fact that they said a woman could not have killed her parents with a hatchet because that's man shit.
Shit. She wasn't able-bodied. That is some man shit.
That's so fucking rude. Basically, they were like, women poison people.
If they're going to kill anyone, which women don't do that.
No. But if they did, they would do some passive shit like poison.
Listen, I'm gonna tell you, a woman gets madder than any fucking person in the world.
And if I'm mad at you... Maybe I will beat your face in with a hatchet.
It's true. I'd rather do that than poison you.
It's true. And if I ever get arrested for beating somebody in the face with a hatchet, I'd like you to delete this audio clip.
Absolutely. Everyone remember that. Now, I also think that she did try to poison them.
I think so. I think that vicious illness they all got was because she put only a tiny amount of whatever.
I didn't know how much to put in. Yeah, I think she was just... I think she put a tiny amount.
Wasn't enough to kill anyone, but they all got viciously ill.
It wasn't working. because again she tried to go get the prussic acid later didn't get it and when she couldn't get it i think that's when she was like i gotta do something she was like i'm pissed the fuck off that none of this is working and i hate you yeah so i gotta do it so i'm gonna use a hatchet Now, the judge determined after this inquest that she was probably guilty and that she should remain jailed until a superior court trial.
So she stayed in jail more. More. More.
So she stayed in jail. More jail. More jail for you, Lizzie.
Then it was brought before a grand jury in November.
This is when the jurors convened to hear the case. and reconvened on December 1st, and that's when they started hearing all the testimonies from all the witnesses and all that good stuff.
One of the biggest ones was Alice Russell.
She was kind of a bombshell testimony. Remember, she is Lizzie's good friend.
We talked about her in the first part. She was the one who Lizzie sent Bridget to go get once she discovered her father's body. no Alice was the one that went up with Bridget and found Abby as well She also watched Lizzie burn a paint-covered dress on the stove the Sunday after the murders.
Paint-covered air quotes. Exactly. Many, many air quotes.
Now, she had originally been one of the witnesses to testify at the original inquest in front of a grand jury, but she had not told them that one important piece of information.
The one about the dress. Because she probably had like a little conflict of conscience.
She definitely did. Conscience. They had asked her if all the dresses in the house were accounted for after the murders, and even though she was wracked with guilt, she said yes, they were. well her guilt ended up becoming too intense for her and so she requested to come before the grand jury again and tell that information because she didn't want to hold it in anymore.
She literally called him and was like, I'm freaking the fuck out.
I have this information and I know it's really damning and i need to tell you i gotta tell you the grand jury indicted lizzie the next day after she told them this oh come on so Hosea Knowlton was the Bristol County District Attorney, and he was apparently a super badass.
If you look at a picture of him, he just looks like an old timey badass. yeah love that for him uh he really gave this case his all because he really believed she was guilty The medical examiner testified that Abby was killed between 9 and 1030 a.m.
When Knowlton asked where Lizzie was during this time, she said she was ironing handkerchiefs that morning.
And when he asked her how long she did this for she said quote I don't know sir.
So she didn't have an alibi for the time of Abby's death.
She could not place herself anywhere. Now, this is from the official transcript.
Knowlton said, Lizzie said, I was in the kitchen reading an old magazine that had been left in the cupboard, an old Harper's magazine.
Now this is bad for Lizzie, because when Bridget was asked about Andrew returning home, she said that he had trouble opening the front door because it was jammed and it was locked.
And she tried opening it for him. Bridget did.
It was after he had rang the bell to get everybody's attention.
And she was having trouble opening the door and she swore.
And I think our tour guide said she swore in Gaelic.
She did. And she said once she swore, she testified that she distinctly heard Lizzie laughing from the second floor.
So she definitely wasn't in the kitchen because we were just in that house.
You can't mistake where someone is. no if they're upstairs they're right upstairs from the front door if she was in the kitchen that's across the way from the front door way across And if she heard her laughing, chances are she was at the top of the stairs.
Yep. Right outside of the bedroom where Abby lay.
Fucking brutally killed. Exactly. So if she heard her laughing, that's where she was.
And if she had heard her laughing from the kitchen, you would know you heard her from the kitchen because it's like across the house. in the front door.
Right. She probably wouldn't have heard her.
Exactly. So again, this places her upstairs and right in front of where Abby was murdered, right in front of the guest room.
They told her this was bullshit. They were like, that's bullshit because that's not matching up with shit.
And they asked her again, are you sure you were in the kitchen when Andrew arrived home?
And she said, quote, I'm not sure if I was in the kitchen or the dining room.
So Knowlton said, did you go back to your room before your father returned?
He was basically trying to get her to slip and say she was upstairs.
She said she had because she remembered carrying laundry up to her bedroom.
Wouldn't she have had to pass the guest room?
Yes, 100%. So now Nolten's like... So you were upstairs when Andrew came home.
You just told me you weren't right. And she said, quote, I was not upstairs when he came home.
No, sir. It's like, girl, so he's he then asked her a bunch of other questions before circling back to the question of where she was when the bell rang.
She answered, quote, I think in my room upstairs.
Fuck Lizzie. You just fucking lied. And then you confirmed Bridget's testimony.
But then you lied again and flipped it all.
Like, you're not making any sense. You're just confusing.
Every single time he asks this question, she answers differently.
Yeah. So come to think of it, I was in Wisconsin.
Yeah. She's like, you know what? I was on a space level.
I was intergalactic at this moment. I think I was on a cruise.
I was on a cruise to the Caribbean. Okay.
Okay. So he was like, quote, so you were upstairs when your father came home.
And she said, quote, I don't know for sure, but I think I was.
Lizzie. But, again, she was on an assload of morphine.
She was, but again... you shouldn't be doing that no it shouldn't be because this is basically were you upstairs no But were you upstairs?
Yes. Were you upstairs, though? No. But were you upstairs?
Sure was. Like, it's literally like, nope, yes, nope, yes.
I'm confused. I don't even know which question to ask next.
He's like, I am just using all of my lost skills right now to not... He's like, I agree, you're probably guilty you are definitely guilty so the next day she was wishy-washy again about whether she saw Bridget washing windows or not and about where She was again.
She's like, you know what? Maybe Bridget did it.
She's like, you know what? I bet it was Bridget.
Who the fuck is Bridget? I thought that girl's name was Madeline.
She's like, we got a fucking Maggie living in our house.
Who's this Bridget bitch? Like, fuck. She did it.
Bridget did it. It was Bridget. Maggie didn't, but Bridget did.
So she said she now she was saying she went to the barn to look for lead for fishing poles.
But Knowlton was like, Well, there are no footprints in the dust in the barn, and you were definitely not in there.
And also, your fishing poles don't even have lines on them, so they can't be used.
So why were you going to find... fucking shit for your fishing poles that can't even be used and she's like because I fucking was Jose and she was like I just did that's actually where the term no way jose came from is this is this testimony he's like were you there and she's like no way jose and he was like my name is jose and nilton actually.
It's in the transcripts. Go read it. There was also something the police said.
They said that there was a bucket of bloody rags. in the home when they got there and when they were like Did she say she was at her period?
Yo, Liz, what's that about? She wasn't like, oh shit, I don't know what that is.
Because that's what I would do. I'd be like, I don't know what that is.
Maybe the killer left it there. Yeah. She was like, I'm menstruating, guys.
That's just my bucket of bloody menstruating rags.
That is foul. now of course at that time and today most men are gonna be like you no they're just gonna go ew i'm not gonna ask any further about that he's like and that's all i have judge And that's literally what the police did.
They were like, hey, don't want to even touch that.
So those bloody rags were never I mean, what they're they're not going to test them for anything.
Right. What the fuck? Are they testing for 1893?
But she just literally was like, oh, that's just my period rags.
And they were like, OK, bye. It's like, dude, those were probably the shit she was wearing when she murdered them and she just threw it in a bucket.
I mean, and nothing was done about it. Good for I mean, I don't want to say good for a murderer, but like, but she's. she thought on her feet man she's like yo they're not gonna ask me further about my menstruation That's the thing.
One thing, and I'm calling her Lizzie now because I'm going to be honest with you.
I think she's guilty. Okay. But one thing Lizzie was really good at was reading the fucking room.
Mm-hmm. The room full of men. Exactly. And she knew what she needed to appear like at that time.
And she needed to appear like a helpless woman.
I don't have the Constitution. I'm so fragile.
I couldn't do this. I have the vapors. I have the vapors.
She would walk in there with a fan. I just actually pictured her vaping.
Lizzie hits her jewel pod mid-fucking testimony.
You would, you fucking young millennial.
Hold up, Jose. She's like, vaping what? No.
All of a sudden it smells like grape Kool-Aid in the fucking room.
And everybody's like, this is delightful.
She didn't do it. I cracked myself up. She smells wonderful.
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Well, Nolten actually had, like, close to a five hour long closing argument.
Okay, like... Are you just reading it over and over again?
He just wanted to really hammer in there like this.
This lady did it. Five hours. Isn't a closing argument supposed to be like a solid few minutes?
No, I think you can. I mean, they're usually pretty long.
Not five hours, but pretty long. Shit. He said... One of the things he said that really struck me as kind of brilliant for him to really hammer in there... What he said?
Was he said... Isn't it kind of weird that both times Bridget left Lizzie alone, one of her parents ended up murdered?
It is strange. She said Bridget went out to wash windows.
Yep. Abby died. Bridget goes upstairs to the third floor to take a nap.
Andrew ends up murdered. Every single time that she left Lizzie alone, boom, one of the parents are dead.
So he also pointed out that it was pretty curious that Lizzie said she was in the barn... because that happened to be the one place where she wouldn't have been able to see someone enter or exit the home.
So she didn't have to lie and say I saw somebody.
She was like, I was in a place where I wouldn't have seen anybody.
Right. He also pointed out that the story about Abby leaving to see a sick friend, because remember when Andrew came home, he said, where's Abby?
Right. And... Lizzie said she received a note from a sick friend.
She's out seeing that sick friend. Uh-huh.
He said, that's really weird. Because they never found a note.
Where's the note? We never found the note.
No note is found. And he also said... If a messenger was sent with this note to tell her to come see her sick friend... that's BS because one, the note isn't there.
And two, where's the sick friend or the messenger to come forward and say, yeah, that did happen.
Right. nobody's coming forward and saying this happened.
And he's saying like, why wouldn't somebody come forward and give her story credibility if it was true?
Right. No one has. Now, there was also the fact that the house is bonkers when it comes to layout.
That house is wild. And it's true. He said some random stranger would not have been able to walk through this home unnoticed.
No way. Without being in this home before.
Right. Because it's true. Bedrooms are on top of bedrooms.
Bedrooms are like, it's like a nesting doll of a home.
The entire second floor is just bedrooms.
And it's all bedrooms that are just like all on top of each other.
You have to walk through other bedrooms to get to other bedrooms.
It's very... Very odd. So somebody who didn't know this house would not have been able to go through it without being noticed.
And there's two separate staircases too.
Exactly. Lizzie's lawyers also knew, like we said, how to play the all-male jury.
They had her dressed super fancy. She was wearing black.
She was wearing tight corsets. They had them very feminine.
Yes, girl, get it. And according to a Smithsonian article that I read, they had her come into court with fans and holding bouquets of flowers.
Like, they... play would you hold a bouquet of flowers to walk in well because back then oh yeah that's just 18 now if you walked in with a bouquet of flowers people would be like oh she did it crazy But back then they were like, she's just a lady.
She just picked these on the way. in life that's all she's doing she's just growing flowers everything is nifty she's so fragile Now, you know, just women's shit.
So one newspaper described her as, quote, quiet, modest, and well-bred.
Well bred. Yeah. That's how I want to be fucking described.
Well bred. Yikes. Another one said that she lacked, quote, Amazonian proportions.
She wasn't tall? So she could not have wielded that hatchet the way that they are saying she wielded it.
What a way to say someone is short. Yeah.
You do not... possess amazonian proportions young miss okay it's like appreciate it thank you you're like you're a writer huh Now, again, all the jurors were male, and most of them were farmers or blue-collar workers, and most of them had daughters Lizzie's age.
Because Fall River, the bustling metropolis that it was, couldn't be used for jury candidates because of bias and the Usually can't pick from the place where the crime happened.
They acquitted her. The jury acquitted her.
Right. And they did it so quickly that they had to sit around for an hour and twiddle their fucking thumbs to make it look like they actually took time to decide.
Oh, good. So they didn't take an hour. They took like four seconds and then they just sat around with their thumbs up their asses for an hour to make it look like they actually deliberated.
Perfect. When the verdict was read, Lizzie fell to her knees and started to sob, probably because She was like, I got away with that.
She was like, I never thought this was going to happen.
She's probably like, these dumb fucks are actually acquitting me.
Or she was probably like, I don't have to go back to that tiny ass cell.
Praise the God. Praise the Lord. Now, it's important to remember that in the order that these two people were killed, benefited Lizzie greatly.
And this is why I believe Lizzie Borden is guilty.
This is just something that really strikes me.
First of all, why was Abby killed at all?
Because she didn't like her. But if it wasn't Lizzie, I mean.
Oh, you can kind of see. I'm not saying justifying it by any means.
But, you know, maybe Andrew wasn't a really liked person.
He was a businessman. Sometimes businessman. men who don't go awry.
And they can have people that are nemesis of them and want them gone.
But Abby? Why would Abby be killed? And why would Abby be killed first?
Right. Like, that doesn't make sense. And Lizzie was in the fucking house and so was Bridget.
Why weren't all of them killed? If you're going to kill one, why are you only killing Abby and Andrew?
It doesn't make sense. And where would the killer have hid for like a few hours?
Exactly. Abby was killed first. So all her shit was transferred to Andrew by her will.
Right. So that makes sense that she was killed if it's Lizzie.
Because Lizzie gets rid of Abby, now all of Abby's assets are immediately transferred by her will to Andy. andrew so then andrew is killed andrew andrew i don't know whether i just got very fancy andrew is killed some like old-timey spirit just possessed me really quick hosting a tv show But then Andrew... Andrew was killed.
And so all of Abby's shit and all of his shit immediately transfers to Emma and... lizzie right so it's very beneficial of her to get rid of abby first right because it transfers just all that shit into her name And it doesn't make sense for some stranger to do it that way because what the fuck are they getting out of this?
Right. Nothing. Nada. If just Andrew was killed, I could totally buy into the idea that it's some random stranger that But if she had killed Andrew, his shit would have gone to Abby.
Exactly. So Abby had to die. If it's Lizzie.
Right. But if it's some random stranger, why?
And Lizzie was pissed that... Andrew was giving money to Abby's family exactly so I think they were like and she stopped calling her mother She did.
She called her Mrs. Borden. Ooh. I don't know why we're in the South suddenly, but we are.
We keep doing that throughout this episode.
Because it feels old-timey. It does. It does.
Now, Abby had two sisters, Birdie and Priscilla.
Call me Birdie from these days forward. I think it's important to note, just to be transparent and play devil's advocate here. that Emma and Lizzie did give them both money from Abby's estate.
Yeah, guilty fucking conscious. I agree.
But I'm just putting it out there. Sorry I fucking hacked off your sister.
Here you go. Well, and they did transfer her estate to them for $1.
So they didn't hold back everything from them, but they also didn't give her a ton of it.
They inherited a shit ton of money. Yeah.
Now, Emma and Lizzie inherited $500,000 altogether.
Back then. Back then, this is like $10 million.
Yeah, that's a lot of fucking... It's a lot of dough.
Now, soon after this, in September of 1893, Emma and Lizzie moved in together into a giant mansion.
On the hill. That was in the hill, which is where Lizzie especially always wanted to live in the hill.
Because all their family was up there. And that's the... fancy ass part of town that's where all like the debutantes live that's where all the parties that you meet your future your future gentleman caller are your thomas ravenel oh god Southern charm, guys, but Thomas Rapindell is terrible.
Horrible. He's a terrible man. Lizzie named this mansion Maplecroft.
I like that name. Very. I love that. I just want to name my house.
I think we should name my house something very imposing and fancy.
Spooksville. Spooksville. Spooksville does not sound elegant.
Sure does. Now, four years after her acquittal, She was still getting a little bit in trouble, Lizzie.
Oh. She was not wiping her slate clean. What happened?
Four years after, a warrant was issued for her arrest in Providence.
For why? She was charged with shoplifting.
Oh, sis. And she had to make restitution.
So she... You don't need to be shoplifting.
You just got $10 million by bumping off your stepmother and your daddy.
I remember watching a TV show where she got in trouble for shoplifting before the murders.
Yeah, so she had some... Okay. She had some things going on.
Don't we all? Now Lizzy finally got to be in the hill and live in that society life she always wanted because she always just wanted to be a part of this.
She wanted to be part of the fancy parties and all that.
Me too. And that's, I get it. I get it, girl.
You have tons, your family has tons of money.
You want to be in that shit. Even if you don't have tons of money, I want to be in that shit.
So when they moved into Maplecroft together, she was throwing parties with high society.
Left and right. She was also partying with theater folk.
Yeah. including actress Nance O'Neill. And apparently theater people back then were considered kind of lowbrow.
Which is interesting. I know. It's really weird.
But I think it kind of made me think of like the Great Gatsby and her and her like crazy friends.
Oh, yeah. And it's this like really crazy party.
But it's like, yeah. So it's like these high society people like hanging with these like. you know, lower-brow people.
Because a lot of times they just, like, got fucking shit-faced and, like, did drugs together.
Exactly. And... Emma did not love this.
In fact, she fucking hated it. She did not like Nance O'Neal.
That would have been you and me. Right. So Emma was not feeling this whole thing.
And they actually had a falling out over this, over the partying, over the kind of people that she was associating with.
And she was like, dude, we're on the hill.
I want to associate with fucking. hill people right not not not hill people like hills have eyes people but like The hell.
Like the hell. The hell. The hell in Fall River.
Now they actually, and it was basically her relationship with Nance O'Neal was a problem for Emma.
And Emma was also kind of weirded out by her relationship with their driver, Joseph Tetrault.
She was kind of like, what's going on there?
I want to drive her. Don't we all? And in 1905, Emma left Maplecroft.
She moved out. And this is crazy. They never spoke or saw each other again.
They never spoke again? Never spoke again.
After she moved out, that was it. Like, it was the end of their relationship, which makes me think that something else...
Big made that happen, which maybe Emma found something out.
And was like, bye, I'm not living with you anymore.
And maybe that's why she cut the relationship off because she might have found something out.
And maybe she wasn't ready to give her sister up to the authorities for it, but she wasn't going to be anywhere near her.
Yeah. Okay. That's what I think at least.
But Lizzie fucking loved her lifestyle She was loving partying with theater people And all that shit And she ended up owning one of the first vehicles in the neighborhood.
Oh shit. And even had her own gas pump at the home.
That's amazing. And it was put in in 1924 and it's still there today and works.
And she had something the tour guide told us that like, It was like this turnstile where if she had her car driven into the garage. it would turn it around, her entire fucking car around, so that when it was ready to be driven again, you could just pull right out.
It was just facing outwards, which is badass.
And very ahead of the time. Really. Because people have that in their house now.
Do they? That's a thing, yeah. That's like fancy people.
That is so cool. You never have to back in anywhere.
Yeah, because you're too fancy to back out of your driveway.
I'm always back in in places so that I can pull out.
Because you're fancy. Lizzie also really liked traveling as she got older.
She would travel to Boston, New York, to all kinds of places.
And she actually hired a traveling buddy who was named Trudy and lived in the house with her for a time.
Okay. Just saying. Trudy. Hello, Trudy.
Hey, girl. She continued charity work. She still loved doing charity work, but she did it anonymously a lot of the time now because... shit was not great money from her because Lizzie was a pariah because after even after her acquittal People were pretty sure that she killed her parents with a hatchet.
Kids would literally come to Maplecroft and sing that awful nursery rhyme outside of her house. yes uh she people would stare people would whisper she was shunned by her church oh who she had been very much a part of She also, remember the tour guide said that she like passed these women on the street who were like her tenants at one of her houses.
Oh, yeah. And they all turned their heads.
But then she got them evicted. Yeah. She was like, OK, bitch, you don't want to talk to me.
Yeah, you don't want to live there no more.
Well, and these like Ash said, these kids would because this nursery rhyme came out in the 1920s.
I believe it was when it came about that, you know, Lizzie Borden. had an axe, gave her mother 40 whacks.
When she saw what she had done, she gave her father 41.
When that came out, these kids would come to Maplecroft and they would sing it outside of Maplecroft, which I'm like, what the fuck is wrong with you?
If you think this bitch... hacked two people her fucking parents to death with a fucking hatchet you think is stopping her from hacking you today What the fuck are you doing sitting out there singing that song to her?
I'd be like, nope. I'm going to leave that crazy old bat alone and let her live in her house in Maplecroft forever.
Yup. Well, then they would also put pins in her doorbell so that it would ring continuously.
Oh, that's horrible. Isn't that fucked? Yeah.
Like they would put the pins in and it would just be like ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.
So she'd have to come out and like take the pins out to get it to stop ringing. oh that would piss me the fuck off you guys are lucky you did not get hatchets to the face because i would have had i would probably hatchet your face for that i would hatchet your face like what the fuck and it's funny what the fuck And it's funny because we were talking... Actually, I was talking to my mother-in-law about this case recently.
And I was saying how these kids would stand outside of her house and...
I was saying like, you know, how fucked is it if she really didn't do this?
Yeah, that is really innocent. What a life that she like.
That sucks. Yeah. And it's funny because my mother-in-law, who is hilarious... was saying, well, you know what I would do if these kids are out there singing this song?
I would just like swing a hatchet outside the window or something like she's like, I would lean into that i would too i would come to the door like with my hair all crazy holding a hatchet and just scare the shit out of you i'd be like you want to fucking sing at me oh yeah something and i was like Like motherfucking same.
I would do that. I want to do that now. I would love to be like the neighborhood crazy bitch.
Like I would love that. Nobody's singing outside of your house.
You can't be doing that. Oh God. I hope someone does because I will totally lean into that shit.
Don't don't test a She's just waiting to go crazy.
I am. I so am. I'm waiting to be like the creepy old witch of the neighborhood because I live in like an old. creepy house sweetie i don't think you're waiting i think you are i'm ready i'm ready to get that reputation though i think you had there's about 50 pumpkins on your porch Sure is.
Yeah, I think you're good. And it's going to get worse.
Like this this year, the pumpkins didn't even reach their full potential because I was so she was born shit.
Just wait. Just wait everybody. So Lizzie died at the age of 66 of pneumonia.
Oh, that's pretty young. That is young. And it was in 1927.
What was that young back then? probably not but well in the 20s that's 60s pretty old but 60s i mean yeah whatever Either way, Emma died nine days later in New Hampshire, I believe.
Which is interesting because she was nine years older.
Isn't that very weird? Yeah. That's strange and spooky and awesome.
So... Lizzie loved animals. She was a big animal advocate.
She had a doge. She had a doge. And there is a photo in the house of her sitting on the porch of Maplecroft.
Holding her dog. And she's like, all elderly and shit and she's sitting in this white gown and she's holding her doge which is a Boston Terrier.
Cute. And she looks like this like kind old lady and you're looking at the photo and you're like, I'm pretty sure you fucking hatcheted your parents' faces. like a few years earlier and that is something that is very hard to reconcile with this photo of you sitting on your porch in a rocking chair like an old lady with a doge like it's you're looking at the photo like these are not the same people Yeah.
And so and again, if she is innocent. What a fucking terrible rest of your life.
I know you got to live in Maplecroft on the hill and all that good stuff, but you were basically isolated.
Really bullied. And you were being bullied constantly.
And it's like, if she was innocent, then someone murdered her parents.
And she never found out. And now she has to hear a song about it.
Yeah. All the time. Like that's real fucked.
Yeah. That's real. But again, I think she was guilty.
Yeah. I just don't know. I mean, I will say, like I said, she loved animals, like we were saying.
She left $30,000 to the Fall River Animal Rescue League when she died.
That is a lot of money. So she was even doing like she was really into charity work and stuff.
So it's like she had these like good qualities about her.
But fucking I don't know. And then I did read that on Bridget's deathbed, the maid.
Yeah. She told her sister that she lied on the stand to protect Lizzie.
Oh, shit. And she never elaborated or said what she lied about. she just said she wanted to put out there before she died that i lied on the stand to protect her interesting so it's like what did bridget see Because our tour guide told us that like Bridget left after these murders and never fucking talked about it again.
Would not discuss it. was, like, really fucked up about it.
She died pretty young, too, I think. She did, I think, and...
I think Bridget saw what happened. Maybe.
And I think Bridget had to lie. And I think that she lived the rest of her life knowing what happened.
And that's probably why she was like, I fucking lied to protect her.
I think she saw some shit go down. I really do think she saw something.
And that's why she wouldn't speak about it ever again because she was probably super fucked up.
You just have to wonder what makes somebody do something like that.
That seemed like they were a chill-ass person.
I honestly think it had something, it definitely had something to do with money, but I don't think that was the full court press of why this happened.
I think something must have been going on here.
Listen, I'm here to tell you that sometimes parents aren't so great.
That's what I'm here to tell you. Ash definitely knows.
I'm just going to leave it at that. And maybe that's where Lizzie was.
And that's why it's good that I moved in with my grandparents.
And maybe Lizzie... felt like there was no way out.
This was her way out. She couldn't move in with her grandparents.
I mean, again, there's no justifying this right now.
The thing is, the anger in hacking somebody's... Beating someone in the head with a hatchet alone, you're so pissed.
Yeah. 11 and 18 times or however many blows it was.
There is fury behind that. And... They did say that the first blow to Abby Borden was in the front of her face, in her head.
And they said someone... Obviously, it was a hatchet wound.
They said someone had to be real close to her to do that.
And there were no defense wounds. Which means...
She was standing in front of them, which means she probably knew them. it could have been Lizzie walking up to her, talking to her and then whipping out a hatchet and hitting her in the face with it.
Yeah. That's what I think. And they said that the first blow to Andrew was probably fatal.
Yeah. And there was like however many more so.
Well, and then I did read something that said they found a hatchet like a bunch, a bunch of years after this happened on the roof of one of the neighbor's houses.
Oh, they, They found it because one of the kids was getting a ball off the roof and there was a hatchet on the roof.
Terrifying. And they saw this hatchet was all like rusted, but they said underneath the rust, they could tell that this was a brand new hatchet.
Oh, now this is important because when they looked at Abby's wounds, they found pieces of I believe it's called guilt.
That is from a new hatchet. So when they looked at these wounds, they were like, oh, this was a brand new hatchet that was used for these wounds because pieces of it came out in her skull.
So they're thinking maybe this hatchet was thrown up on the roof by whoever did it.
Which would make sense if it was Lizzie, because she's right there.
She just throws it onto the roof, and maybe it wasn't found until now.
And it's like, they can't do anything about it, but...
That was an interesting note to me that like they could have the.
The wild case. It's such a bonkers case.
I will never go back to that house. I can tell you that much.
I loved that house I loved the experience that we had there I'm glad that we did it but I will not be doing it again I loved it.
I totally, I kind of want to. Elena's like, I'm going back every year.
I kind of want to do it again because it was so fun.
I literally can't feel my entire leg right now.
But what I want to do is I want to go back and I want to rent out the whole house with like a bunch of people.
Well, I hope you all have fun when you do that.
Who's with me? Not I, sir. Raise your hand.
Good day, sir. So that is the story of Lizzie Borden, who had an ex, and in my opinion, gave her fucking parents 40 whacks.
Well, not 40. No. But close to it. Well, I am not going to state my opinion, and I hope you all have a good night.
So in the meantime of deciding whether or not Lizzie's guilty, why don't you go ahead and follow us on Instagram at morbid podcast.
Hit us up on Twitter. at a morbid podcast.
I know a lot of people have been accidentally tweeting at morbid podcast, and that is actually the morbid curiosity podcast.
And they are really sweet in correcting people and sending them to us. like go listen to their podcast but maybe just get it right the first time well just kidding totally kidding but they are morbid podcast we are a morbid podcast on twitter so just Just letting you guys know.
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That place is fucking awesome and you need to go join it.
I love it there. It's great. Ow. Oh, my whole leg is asleep.
Join us in an email. Yes. Send us an email is what I meant.
My fucking leg hurts so bad. Join us in Gmail at morbidpodcast at gmail.com.
Donate to that Patreon if you're feeling so inclined.
We did just add a new episode. You're welcome.
Patreon.com slash Morbid Podcast. We hope you keep listening.
And we hope you. Keep. It. We. But that's weird that you go to the Lizzie Borden house and you experience all these creepy things and you say, hey, I'm never going back.
But then Elena says, hey, I'm going to throw a party there.
Are you going to come? And I say, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not coming.
And then... We put this episode out and it's a great episode and don't kill your parents.
Bye. Thank you. and for those Patronuses that are waiting for their shoutouts I promise you they're coming back We just needed to get our shit together for a little while.
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