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Hey weirdos, I'm still Ash. And I'm still Elena.
And this shit is still morbid as fuck. And Minnie.
Mini, mini, mini, mini, mini morbid. Mini morbid, mini morbid, mini morbid.
It's Minnie and I always forget to say that.
You definitely do. what here you are and the title says that it's mini and you know what it's actually not mini I was just going to say this is not a mini.
I don't lie to the people. In fact, and I'll explain this at the end of the episode.
This might have a little branch off of it that goes into my next mini.
Well, I love trees. So trees, they provide oxygen.
Correct. Love them. Yep. Yep. Cool. Let's keep those around.
So we're just two nerds who think we're funny.
That's my favorite negative review ever.
I don't even look at it as a negative review.
I am a nerd and I do think I'm funny. Do your friends think I'm funny?
Yeah, we haven't really given a shit. about any of our negative reviews lately because we're just like in that place now where we don't care about negative reviews.
We care much more about all the beautiful, lovely listeners who leave us beautiful, thoughtful. delightful, positive reviews because you guys are the best.
So we just want to thank you. When I'm sad, I read the positive reviews.
Yeah, because you guys are so thoughtful and just nice and you're articulate.
And I just, we love you. We read literally every single one of them.
All of them. And they touch our black little hearts.
And are somewhat souls. But the one negative review that we also loved so much was somebody who literally just said this to me.
Two nerds who think they're funny. And I'm like, you know what?
You're not wrong. Yeah, I was like, you know what?
Nailed it. That's not false information, Sally.
That's correct. So that's really all. That's not business, but that's all the business we attend to on Mini Morbid.
So let's dive right into this. What's your Mini Morbid about?
My mini morbid. Let's just call it your fucking morbid.
My full ass morbid. My full ass morbid. I'm not going to tell you.
I'm just going to lead you into it. I'm going to see if you know this case.
This is kind of like a well-known case, I would think.
Don't say that because I probably won't know it.
That's okay. Thank you. So on November 3rd, 1998.
I was alive. You were. Barely. But you were alive.
I was like two. Yeah. That's like barely.
Yeah. Two years on the earth. That's not a lot.
Eight-year-old Madeline Maddy Ray Clifton, who was born on June 17th, 1990. arrived home from school to her home on Fleetwood Road, Lakewood, Jacksonville, Florida.
I want to live on Fleetwood Road. Fleetwood Mac.
I was like, what is the thing behind that?
I get it now. Thank you. That evening she sat down and played the piano sometime around like 5 o'clock.
Mm-hmm. So after she did her piano practice, it was about 20 minutes later.
And she went off to chip some golf balls with a guy named Larry Grisham who lives at the end of the street.
I love that. Now, Maddie was like a little tomboy.
She loved sports. She was like super tough.
Like they described her as tough as nails at one point.
But she could also be like a ballerina. Right.
She was super well-rounded, just like this cool little chick.
Just like a badass eight-year-old. Exactly.
Like Maddie was so cool. Oh, no. I don't like where this is headed.
She came back home and she was like, Mom, I need some more golf balls because we lost them all.
Oh, my God. So... This is the last time her mother saw her alive.
Now, little warning ahead of time. I am going to give you a big warning when I discuss it.
But there is a child death, obviously, in this one.
But I will let you know when things get a little gnarly here.
Because I personally hate children's death stories. cases as well like i have problems reading or listening to them but i think this one's just really important to tell So by 6.20 p.m. that night, Maddie's mom, Sheila Clifton,
She called for her and her older sister, who was, I believe, 11 years old, Jessica, to come in.
She called her for dinner. Okay. And this is just what they did.
Like, this was, you know, the 90s. Yeah, I was going to say it's like the 90s. everybody knew each other so and I mean even when I used to play outside when I was little our parents just called us infant inner like we were playing around the neighborhood yeah It used to be a very normal thing.
Exactly. Like it sounds crazy now, but it's like back then it really wasn't that big of a deal.
Now, when she calls them for dinner, Jessica comes in immediately.
Oh, no. and Maddie's not with her. So Jessica's like, oh, yeah, I haven't seen Maddie for a while.
I didn't even know she was out playing. So, of course, her mom's like, what?
Which I can't even fathom the amount of just like. sick like the gut wrenching feeling I can like feel it for her So she immediately starts going to neighbors' houses because she knows them.
And she's saying... Has anybody seen Maddie?
No one has seen her. So she's starting to literally panic and she's standing on her front lawn screaming Maddie's name.
Oh, my God. Which I totally get because it's like that's in like quick little side note.
My kids are three and a half years old, my twins.
They don't go anywhere without me seeing them.
I'm probably like too much, I suppose. i don't think that you could ever be too much i just feel like you can't be no and we were out in our backyard the other day and one of them went in the house without telling me oh god to go get something, and I happened to turn around and see only one of them.
I screamed her name in such a state of panic that she started to cry. ran back out from the house and i like ran to her and i was like i didn't know where you went and i'm sorry i yelled but i didn't know where you went i thought i lost you like i freaked out i freaked out because it can happen yeah like that it's like you these things can happen in the matter of seconds so it's like when they do when it happens even for a split second it's like every scenario must go through your head absolutely so yeah so i'm a crazy mom just so you know And so unfortunately, so yeah, so her mother Sheila was absolutely freaking out by this point.
And soon the entire neighborhood started searching around.
Well, and it's like it's a cul-de-sac. She couldn't have fucking gone far without someone seeing something.
And I'm sure everybody in that neighborhood is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second.
Like we all know each other. And we all know, you can see a car come and go from a cul-de-sac.
So they're like, wait a second. Now her father, Steve, who was a supervisor at a metal shop.
He said, quote, it was like she shut the door and just poof, vanished off the face of the earth.
Oh my God, that makes my heart hurt. Yeah.
So by 6.33 p.m. approximately, Sheila Clifton had had enough, and she called 911.
She was like, I'm not fucking around here.
That so that night, I mean, adults, children, everybody in that neighborhood and around that neighborhood. went on searches.
Like people were volunteering everywhere.
Jessica, her older sister, who was like 11. was riding her bike through the neighborhood screaming Maddie's name.
Like this was a huge. This is hurting my soul.
Yeah. So, I mean, and this was in the middle of the night.
People had flashlights out. They went all through the night looking for her.
Jesus. Couldn't find her anywhere. Now, somebody who was with these searchers was a neighbor who lived very close to the Clifton's house.
He was a 14 year old. He often played with Maddie and his name was Joshua Josh Phillips.
Okay. Now, Maddie apparently liked him a lot, liked to play with him, even though he's 14 and she's 8.
Later, we will see that that was a source of contention at one point.
They went for hours and hours all through the night...
Next morning, nowhere to be found. Okay.
So the following day, a Jacksonville sheriff's office detective decided to go door to door and started... talking to each neighbor, trying to get stories, finding out where people were that night.
We've got to figure out what happened here.
No one could give any useful information because they were all... They all had alibis.
They were all friends with the Cliftons and they were all like, we...
We never saw her. She wasn't here. She wasn't playing with our kid.
Okay. So there was one person that they kind of focused on at first.
His name was Larry Grisham, the guy that she went to chip golf balls with.
Is this like an actual? guy well that's the thing when i first read it i was like oh larry grisham she's going to play with larry grisham is a man he was a 45 year old man Who liked to play with children.
Okay. And I don't mean he like, I'm not suggesting that he liked to like quote unquote play with the children.
Yeah. But he did have a criminal history that involved 29 arrests to his name.
I am sure people didn't know about this.
Now the charges he had under his name were things like auto theft, DUIs.
But there were two counts of sexual battery five years apart from each other.
Both of those counts were dropped. Okay.
But they are on his record. Okay. And they do not say that they're against a child.
Okay. But still. Either way. So... That's a little stressful and troublesome.
So I'm not sure what's going on with that, but I'm... I just... I mean...
I'm not blaming anybody, but I probably wouldn't let my eight-year-old play with a 40-year-old man.
Yeah, I would think that might be a little weird.
But I guess if, you know, she's outside with him, they're hitting golf balls.
Yeah. Maybe they could see the house from where she was.
Right, right, right, right. I mean, personally, I wouldn't, but I can't speak for all parents.
I'd be like, no good 40-year-old has an eight-year-old friend that I know of.
It just doesn't feel right. Right. Sorry, kid.
According to Larry, when they when they discussed with him, like you were the last person to see that supposedly was with her.
So what happened that night? So he said that night, around 5.15pm, there was like a strip of land between his home and a neighbor's house.
And they were using that strip, which was really close to Maddie's house.
I guess it was like five doors down. Okay.
They were using that strip to chip golf balls.
So they were out in the open. People could see them.
And he said Maddie went to get some more golf balls, but she didn't come back.
So he said, from what I figured, her parents wanted her to stay home because it was getting a little late.
It was 5.15. Dinner was ready. Dinner was ready.
Something like that. Like, I wasn't really concerned about it.
Right. And he said, that's it. That's the last I saw of her.
So police did take him in for more questioning and he did fail a polygraph.
Okay. But we know how polygraphs can be like fucking as useful as like a fucking hot dog in a trench coat.
Is that a real thing? I don't know where that just came from.
It's a real expression. It feels like that's not very useful.
A hot dog in a trench coat. Right? I want someone to draw that for us.
I just really want a hot dog. So I think that's why that came to me.
And then I feel like you wouldn't want it in a trench coat because you can't eat it.
So, yeah, so he failed the polygraph, but you know.
Trenchcoats and hot dogs, you know. Trenchcoats, hot dogs, all that mess.
So police did search Larry's house. They searched it nine times.
That's a lot. So I think they were really trying to nail this guy with it.
Are you hiding? Because they didn't have anything else.
So I think they're like, you've got to be it.
You're the last guy who's sorry. You're 45 years old playing with a...
And you have this extensive record, too.
They questioned him 20 times. He was able to provide a strong alibi, and he readily gave them DNA samples.
Okay, so he's not our guy. Yeah. So now Steve and Sheila, Maddie's parents, are sitting here having to think, like, quite possibly somebody who's five doors down from me has Maddie.
Because they still haven't found her. They don't even know if she's alive, dead, what.
Oh, my God. Like, I can't imagine how crazy. they must have felt.
Well, then can you imagine how worried you are about your other child too?
Exactly. And how worried everybody in the neighborhood is. neighborhood is about their fucking kids exactly and apparently they did station a police officer or a couple of them at the clifton home because they were worried about jessica because they were like we don't know what this is about right so maybe someone is gonna come and jessica was probably fucking terrified Oh, yeah.
And again, hundreds of volunteers are still scouring the neighborhood.
They're scouring the nearby woods, swamps, anything.
And nothing's coming up. They did a house to house search with cadaver dogs.
The U.S. Army Reserve even came in to go through manholes and shit.
Yeah, crazy. So they had missing person posters printed, like they were posted everywhere, and everyone was wearing yellow ribbons and were hanging them on trees. for Maddie my heart so this was a huge search I mean this was nothing to sneeze at Now on Sunday of that week, even the Jaguars football coaches were wearing the ribbons.
Oh. Yeah. So this was huge. Of course, nothing.
So this is when the Cliftons were like, we have to go to the press.
Like we have to, we have to do something.
We have to do like, we have to up our game here.
So they went on TV and they begged whoever had her. to please let her go.
They offered $50,000 reward for any news to her whereabouts.
Damn it. $50,000 is a lot of fucking money.
And they said there is a possibility of doubling it.
Holy shit. So they were literally like, we will do anything to get her home.
My God. And then they addressed her directly and they said, quote, Maddie, if you are out there and you can hear us, we are ready for you to come back home.
Please come home. And her mom was like sobbing.
Oh, that really just hurt my soul. They had t-shirts with her face on them.
There was more than 10 billboards throughout Jacksonville with her face on them.
This is giving me chills. This went on for, and this was a whole week.
So seven days after Maddie went missing.
The Cliftons went on to Good Morning America.
And this is when they were just trying to, again, plea for...
Her captor to let her go if she was alive, like, you know, just trying anything.
While they were wrapping up this segment on Good Morning America, Maddie was found.
Okay. So let's go to the Phillips house.
Okay. Yeah. Not a place you want to be. So Melissa Missy Phillips is Josh Phillips' mom.
So this was seven days after Maddie went missing.
Missy Phillips is getting ready for work.
She just sent Josh off to school. So she had a few, like, I think she had a couple of hours before she had to go into work.
So she said it was just after 7 a.m. And she said she was like, you know what?
I'd been asking Josh to clean his fucking room.
I know this case. All week. And he hadn't done it.
So she was like, I had this time. And I was like, I'm going to start getting rid of shit.
Because she said not only was it an absolute pigsty, but she said there was this fucking disgusting odor coming from it.
Now she said quote I'd been nagging him about his room because it was in deplorable condition.
So I had a garbage bag and I was going to start putting stuff in that I knew was trash.
He had three birds that he kept in his room.
So oftentimes, if you didn't change the cage out, it would start smelling.
But she did say this smelled much worse.
I think he had two parakeets and a cockatiel.
And she said she figured it was like a combo of the birds and he's 14 years old.
Maybe he has some like rotting food in his room.
Yeah. So she was like, I'm going in there to find this.
And 14-year-old boys just smell bad anyways.
Exactly. So while she's cleaning... She says she noticed a damp spot on the floor.
This damp spot was on the corner of Josh's bed, which was a water bed.
Okay. Now she immediately is like, shit, the waterbed is leaking.
Oh, which sucks. As someone who had a waterbed when I was younger.
You're fucked. That shit leaks all the time and it sucks.
So I understand why she immediately was like, oh, fuck, that's the water.
I mean, yeah. She said, quote, I was thinking maybe it's mildew, you know, or mold.
Maybe that's what this odor is. Right. Coming from the leaking waterbed.
She's like, what the fuck is this? Yeah.
So she said she touched the corner of the mattress and it was absolutely soaked.
So she said she looked in a little bit more because...
She, you know, waterbeds are bullshit. And she was afraid she was going to have to literally drain the whole thing because that's what you have to do when they leak.
It sucks. Oh. So they're like not, I don't even know if they're a thing anymore.
I don't think so. Like they used to be huge.
I think it's like a gel mattress is like the new thing.
Probably, yeah. Which makes a lot more sense.
Mm-hmm. So after she looked at the bed frame and she said she noticed that there was black electrical tape holding one of the corners together.
And she was like, huh, what the fuck's that about?
So she said she also noticed that there was something that looked like a sock in there.
And she was like, oh, how do you get one of his socks in the bed frame?
Oh, God. So she's like, my kid's gross as fuck.
Yeah, she's like, what is wrong with you, Josh?
So then she's like, this tape is weird because she's like, he's never taped his bed frame before.
Mm-hmm. So she peeled the tape apart and cracked open the corner panel, and she said it was dark under that bed.
Like there's a little cavern between the waterbed mattress and like the box spring.
Okay. And she said she went and had to go get a flashlight because she was like, I can't see anything.
So she said she lifted it up again and put the flashlight in there and she said she saw something absolutely horrific inside.
Okay. She calls her husband, Steve, and she gets his voicemail, and the voicemail says, please call home, please.
It's an emergency. Oh, God. Now, he didn't call back, so she said, I knew I needed to get someone.
So she knew the neighborhood had a ton of police around.
So instead of calling 911, this was around 730 a.m., she ran outside and just ran up to the nearest police officer.
Oh, this poor woman. Officer Donald F. Tutton, I think it is.
He was part of the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office.
He was sitting in his marked police car.
And he was on surveillance duty because they had someone constantly.
Right. Now, he said he saw this woman run out of her house at 6139 Fleetwood Street. and she was running up to his vehicle.
So he can see that she's crying, totally distraught.
So he gets out and he's like, can I help you?
Like, what is going on? So she can barely get out what she needs him to do.
And she's so hysterical. Finally, she manages to tell him she's found something at her home and he needs to come see it.
Okay. So he's like... Oh, good. Yeah, right.
I'd be like, can you just maybe give me a hint?
Yeah, he's like fun, a puzzle. So just what I love in my line of work.
So he said, what is it that you found? And she's like, I can't say.
She's like, please, please, please just come in my house. fucking tell me what it is because honestly i'd be like i don't want to i can't imagine being this dude Like, I would have been like, oh, no.
I'm busy that day. No, I don't want to. So he smartly radioed for two other detectives to come.
I was going to say, because I imagine she could just be like some crazy lady.
Exactly. Like, I want you to see this bomb I made.
Exactly. So I think he's like, yeah, I'm going to get to it.
Call him for backup. Now, so the three detectives ended up following her back to her house and...
She brings them to Josh's room, but she says, I can't.
I can't go in. And so she said, quote, I just pointed to where they needed to look.
I couldn't even go in. Oh, this poor, poor woman.
Officer Sulis, who was one of the detectives, opened the door and he said he immediately smelled death and decay.
Okay. And he said, we know what that smells like.
And he said, I immediately knew what that smelled like.
So he said... The bottom cavity of the waterbed was left open, and he said, sticking out from the corner, we could clearly see two small feet clad in white socks.
Oh, that just like did something to me. Yeah.
Yeah. It's really bad. Immediately Missy Phillips started sobbing and like screaming and just losing her mind.
Yeah. Because now it's real. so Officer Tutton took her away outside and he was like you have to tell me how you found this like what happened here So she said, quote, So I started to pull on it, but it wouldn't budge.
I wondered how it got there in the first place and was puzzled as to why it would not pull free.
About that time, I noticed black electrical tape holding the black frame of the pedestal together and surmised the bed must have been leaking for quite some time.
And apparently Josh had attempted to hold it together with the tape so he wouldn't get into trouble, which is a running theme with this case is Josh didn't want to get in trouble.
How did she not feel the foot in the sock?
Well, she did. pulled away from the pedestal and the wood gave way just enough that I could at least see the sock better.
I grabbed it and this time felt something else.
Sorry. So I went to another room and retrieved a flashlight. as i pulled the pedestal slightly away the sock fell down and i felt something cold At the same time, the beam of the flashlights showed me something I could never have been prepared to see.
I just got goosebumps. I mean, and she was freaking out because she was like, I had to implicate my own son.
Yeah, that's like your baby. I had to do it.
Like, this is someone else's baby, but that is my baby.
You know, like, what a... Fucking mind fuck.
So this is when Officer Tutton was like, okay, where is your son?
And she was like, he's on the school bus on his way to school right now.
Oh, my God. She also said, quote, I remember looking at the Clifton's house as I walked towards the patrol car thinking right now they still have hope.
In a few minutes, they'll know. Oh, my God.
Right? You are destroying me. I know. So by this time, Josh's father, Steve, had got the voicemail.
So he was rushing home because all he knew was... He doesn't even know.
It was an emergency. That's all he knew.
So we got there. There's like a million police cars.
He isn't allowed inside his house. He's like, what the fuck is going on?
As this is going on, this is when detectives knocked on the Clifton's door.
And Sheila and Steve Clifton said they knew immediately it wasn't good because they were like their faces.
And after seeing all these police cars swarm a house near them, they were like, yeah, this can't be good.
Right. Which I just can't even imagine. It's like, ugh.
It gives me such a pit in my stomach. They all sat down with them and they told them that they did find Maddie.
And she was. And her father's first question was, where did you find her?
And the officer said, across the street.
Oh, God. Which must have destroyed them.
Knowing for the whole week. The entire, that's seven full days.
Yeah. Like the whole week she's been right over there.
Like yards away from you. And you have no idea how long she's been alive.
Yeah. You don't know what she's gone through.
I mean, just the thoughts that must be running through your brain as a parent.
Unbelievable to me. I can't even like bring myself to, you know what I mean?
Like you can think about it, but you can't even place yourself.
You can think about it, but you can't think about it.
Then you want to run as far away from it as possible.
You want to get on a train, a plane, an automobile and get the fuck out of there.
Yeah. So, yes. Your next note. Who's Josh?
That's just how I read it. Who is Josh? My notes are so weird.
Who's Josh? There is nothing funny about this case, but there are lots of funny things about my notes.
So who's Josh? Let me know. I'm going to let you know.
Hit me up. So Joshua Earl Patrick Phillips was born March 17th, 1984.
I thought people with three names were weird but maybe people with four names are like extra food.
Yeah. I think so. I think this proves it.
You are extrafooked. And he's the only child of Steve and Melissa Phillips.
Now, he does have two older half-brothers that were already moved out of the house, so he didn't really grow up with them.
So he was essentially an only child. Yeah, fuck them.
Yeah, fuck them. So when Josh was born, he was a happy, healthy, very normal baby.
Nothing to report during the birth that could have been like, oh, shit.
Point to that. Oh, there it is. Now, they said he was always smiling as a baby and a child.
His parents described him as a pleasure when he was little.
The family did move several times over the years, but Josh remained like a happy, talkative kid, super friendly with everyone, didn't seem to bother him.
He made friends easily. He was super active and he was like a really curious child.
Okay. Like, you know, those kids that are like...
I need to know why the sky is blue. Like your kids?
Yeah. Which is a good thing, you know? Yeah, you want your kids to ask questions.
Exactly. And, I mean, by all accounts, he seems like he's like a very, like, you know... Average child.
A very good, like, you know, healthy child.
Yeah. He's like... doing everything you want kids to do.
He liked going to zoos. He loved animals.
He loved going to museums. He loved science.
Um, From like an early age. He was a member of the Cub Scouts.
Oh. And he rose all the way to Wolf Cub. which means absolutely nothing to me.
I was going to say, I don't know what that even means.
I'm sure someone listening knows what that means.
I mean, it's the Cub Scouts, so wolf cub sounds pretty diesel.
I feel like eagle cub is like the best you can get.
I don't think eagles have cubs, but you're really pretty.
I'm gonna go now. I didn't put into my thoughts that you had the animal part.
Before the thing had to have a cub. No, I know a cub is a baby.
Like, I think they have eaglets. I think that's what they're called, actually, which is cute.
I actually already left. The more you know.
The town of Agde in France is famous for sun, sand, sea and sex.
But lately, life on the coast has taken a strange turn.
The town's mayor, a respected pillar of the community, has been arrested for corruption.
His wife claims he's been bewitched by a beautiful clairvoyant.
Then there's the mysterious phone calls that local people have been getting.
I am the Archangel Michael. The whole town has been thrown into chaos.
As the mayor is unable to carry out his duties I would like to address you all.
Legal proceedings have been initiated. Join me, Anna Richardson, and journalist Leo Schick for The Mystic and the Mayor as we investigate a story of power, corruption, and magic.
Binge all episodes of The Mystic and the Mare exclusively and ad-free right now on Wondery+.
Start your free trial in Apple Podcasts, Spotify or the Wondery app.
Again, we're not laughing at this case, guys.
No, no. I just want to always clarify that when we laugh... Because sometimes people are like, they are laughing and they're just responsible.
Backfall. Sometimes people get really mad at us.
Listen, Susan. But Susan, chill. Calm down, all right?
Because we're just laughing at our own dumb.
We love you, Sue. So just deal with it. To his father.
His parents were, you know, they loved him.
They took care of him. They didn't physically abuse him by all accounts, by his own account.
Okay. But his dad was like a really big and posing dude.
Okay. He also had a really bad temper. Oh.
That temper was fueled by alcohol. Okay, so was he like a dick?
Not good. Yeah. And basically he was super strict, very strict disciplinarian, which is... not always great right especially when it's fueled by alcohol was it like borderline emotionally abusive exactly It teetered into emotional and verbal abuse with him.
Like, we don't stand. Josh was very scared of his dad and didn't want to do things...
Obviously. Which is important later. Uh-huh.
At 14 years old, Josh was this tall, skinny, brown, curly-haired, brown-haired little boy He actually looks super baby.
Yeah, he has a very baby face. Very baby face, which is even worse when you look at his picture and you know what happened.
Yeah. You're like, you have such a baby face.
Like, how did you do this adult thing? That's really upsetting.
Because humans are great. Yeah, they really are.
So at this point, when he was 14, people described him as a normal, happy kid.
He had tons of friends. Love to make people laugh.
Not a loner at all. Not rebellious. Nothing that would point to like something's going on with that kid.
Right. He attended school at A. Philip Randolph Academy of Technology.
He was in ninth grade at this point, and he had a C average.
Same. He was also a bit of, you know, he was kind of like the class clown type.
Also same. But not in, like, trouble. You know, like, he didn't go to the principal's office or anything or get, like...
He was just funny, a jokester. He was just like a goofy kid.
You're a goofball. Just a fun goofball. So again, nothing would have pointed to this kid having any issues whatsoever.
So far he seems very typical. Yeah, like, this wasn't one of those things where the neighbors are like, yeah, oh, my God, we're shocked.
But you know what? This was the one time he kicked my dog.
Like, nothing. Except for this... I was going to say, there has to be something.
Except for this... There's never nothing.
And this is... This is a big thing. Is this going to be like a... Well, no, this is just more like... So this kid was all of those things.
Okay. But he had this whole other part of him that I think he hid from his family and stuff a lot. that came out later that we're going to see.
So he had been in trouble with Maddie's parents before.
Maddie's parents had already not taken a shine to him.
Why? So, at one point, they had forbid him from entering their house.
Tell me why. Because one time... They came home and they found him in Jessica's bedroom upstairs, the older daughter, the 11-year-old.
Was Jessica there? No. And he was uninvited.
And this was just one month prior to Maddie's murder.
Okay, what happened? He apparently stole a photo out of a frame of Jessica.
In a gymnastics leotard, doing like a backbend.
Okay. So what ended up happening is they found out, and this was discussed a lot in trial, he was weirdly obsessed with Jessica.
Oh. Like weirdly obsessed. And she was 11.
She was 11 and he was 14. He also discussed sex in front of the two girls.
Oh, yeah. And Florence Clifton, who was their grandmother, was like...
You don't come around my granddaughters anymore.
Like, she found out about this and was like, no.
Oh, shit. Now, at this point, Maddie and Jessica's parents were like, yeah, we don't want you playing with our kids anymore.
Like, you're too old to... Yeah, why is a 14-year-old hanging out with an 11- and 8-year-old?
You don't need to be around them, and you're not doing yourself any favor here by acting really gross around them.
Right. No. Now, as time went by, this started to loosen up a little bit and they started to be a little more of like, okay, you guys can play together.
Because they were like, whatever, you're a 14-year-old boy.
But they still weren't like super psyched.
And Josh's parents also found out about all this and were like, you're not playing with Maddie.
Yeah. We're not getting into this shit. Right.
Now, what came out later, too, when police searched his computer... Uh-huh.
Is that they found out that he was really into violent sexual images in graphic pornography, some of which involved children.
Ew! So... He had this weird whole other thing going on.
Okay, so he was not a normal kid. But it didn't leak out.
That's the weirdest part of this dude. is it never leaked out until this happened.
It's like there was no like tiny little leaks happening of this. part of his personality and then it exploded it just fucking exploded in the worst way it possibly could it's like really fascinating That that's how it happened.
And horrific. Oh, so horrific. He also allegedly...
I'll say allegedly because I don't know if they ever... It's unconfirmed.
This has been totally... I mean, it was in the trial.
They did allege this in trial. that he had broken into the Clifton's home at times to steal little things.
Like a picture here. And just like, oh, and they said they found holes in Jessica's walls that were covered by posters where like crawl spaces were in.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like Danny LaPlante type shit.
Yes. And they couldn't. They couldn't confirm that he was the one who did this, but they alleged that he had something to do with this, to, like, spy on her.
Okay, that's fucked up. But again, these are not things that they totally confirmed, but it's something that was brought up.
And either way, he definitely stole the photo because the photo was missing.
They discovered him in the room, and then when the police logged everything in his bedroom, that photo was taped to his headboard.
Why did his parents never notice that that picture was taped to his headboard?
Maybe he covered it with pillows or something.
Ew. Because they didn't say where it was taped.
It could have been taped near the mattress.
That's true. That's really fucked up. Creepy.
So speaking of the crime scene, let's talk about what the police found in his room.
Does your note say, the crime scene? It says, crime scene.
Her notes are amazing. Who's Josh? Who's Josh?
Josh had a ton of air fresheners and incense in his room.
Wonder why. Yeah. I mean, me too, actually, minus the air fresheners.
Yeah, but he kind of explains later that he just kept adding fresheners to his room throughout the week because it just kept getting worse and worse and he didn't know what else to do.
So there was a can of Febreze Fabric Fresh.
There was odor eaters, air fresheners. There were two Glade plug-ins.
Wow. Several rolls of tape. A baseball bat hidden behind a dresser, which comes back later.
A leather man knife, which was thrown behind the TV.
Okay. they found a pair of tennis shoes that were stained in Maddie's blood and And they also found a flyer that was literally the missing person's flyer that was hanging from a bookshelf.
Okay, that's fucked up. Like hanging up in his room as she decomposed under his bed.
Okay, no, this kid is not fucking normal.
So they also found and they like named this, which I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, step back.
What? They named that he had a card game entitled Magic the Gathering on his bookshelf.
And I was like, wait a second, I used to collect those cards.
I was just about to say, didn't you have those cards?
I was like, well, fuck. card game whatever i know but i was like don't name that in the crime scene man look yeah that's like that's just that makes me feel some type of way That's like being like, also, he owned Cards Against Humanity.
Yeah, which likely led to it. It's like, come on.
Like, all right. Don't play Magic the Gathering.
It's like Dungeons and Dragons kind of game, basically.
Right. So they also found... Also, he was a wizard.
Also, he was totally trying to be a wizard.
Just a side note. It's, like, same, but I'm not one of those people, so...
They also found a piece of carpet. They took a piece of carpet that had blood on it.
Oh, no. Can you imagine being his parents and being like, wow, I had no fucking idea that this was all in his room.
That a dead body was in his room. In my house.
That's bonkers. I'd be so pissed at him.
Oh, I would question a lot. Yeah. They also found that photograph of Jessica.
If she was dressed in a leotard... And she was doing like some gymnastics position where she was like bent over.
Okay. They took a pillowcase from his bed and some of the clothing that they believed he was wearing the day of.
Okay. They took a hairbrush and they found a pair of panties.
They bagged those for DNA analysis. What a fucking skis this kid is.
Yeah. And there was a ceiling fan on his ceiling and it was like a wooden kind of ceiling fan.
Yeah. So they found a fine spray of blood on that ceiling fan.
Oh, so this happened in the room. Yeah. It later proved to be Maddie's blood.
And they said that it was eight feet off the floor that that spray went.
Which later when we discuss his confession, you will find out why.
Okay. Speaking of the confession. Okay. Big, big trigger warning, because we are going to discuss...
I mean, Josh admitted everything right away and he explains what happened.
And it is... Gruesome. So Detective William Taylor was the one who picked Josh up from school the day that Maddie's body was found.
Did they let him finish school that day?
No, they went and picked him up and got him out of class.
I think he was in geography class or something.
Stupid. Took him back to the police station, and they started questioning him.
Basically, what they said to him was, Hey, Josh.
Your mom found Maddie's body in your room.
Like, you want to tell us what happened?
So... His father was that his parents were present with him when they questioned him.
Because they probably have to be. Yeah, they have to be, but that doesn't always happen.
So his father was the one, I guess, who encouraged him, like, tell the truth to Rob Josh.
Yeah, you have to. Tell them what happened.
And they said later, they asked, was he being forceful?
Was he scaring him into it? Because they're trying to figure out the dynamic here.
Yeah. And they did say no, he was not forceful.
He was just telling him, like, you have to tell the truth.
And he decided to make a full confession.
Okay. So he said that day, Maddie had come over to his house and wanted to play with him.
But he said, no, I'm busy. I have a lot of chores to do.
Now he said he had a shit ton of chores.
He said like something like 22 chores that were on his list. for that afternoon after school.
And his parents were like, yeah, we do assign him a ton of chores.
But they were like, that sounds crazy, but it's things like... you know, change the bird cage.
Like little things. Feed the dog. Do this.
You know, like little things. And they said the reason...
That they gave him all these chores was to keep him busy between the time he got home from school and they got home so that he wasn't getting himself into trouble and sitting on the computer.
And hiding in someone's crawl space. But they also still kind of seem like they were like.
A little much. That's a little much. I think that goes along with the strict disciplinary.
22 chores is fucking ridiculous. We're going to give you 22 chores when you get home from school.
I can't imagine assigning I don't have kids, obviously, but when I'm a mom someday, I'd feel like an asshole.
That's a lot of chores. And they also said that once a week he had to cook dinner for the family.
That's weird. Which I think is crazy because, to be honest, I don't want a 14-year-old cooking for me.
So, yeah, so they said, yep, he did have a ton of chores to do.
But then Josh said, well, I decided I didn't want to do those chores.
And he said he just wanted to sit on the computer and surf the web.
And watch gross porn. Well, computer records showed that from 422 to 457...
He was on porn sites, many of them involving images of children and torture.
So that's really bad. I don't know what to say about that.
Josh said around 5.15, so he was off the computer at this point.
He said Maddie came back to the house when he was in the yard raking leaves because that was one of his chores and he decided to go back to them.
And she came to the fence that was around their house and said, do you want to play baseball?
No. And he was like, you know what, she's not going to stop.
So, yeah, this is according to him. Okay.
So he said, okay, you can come in the yard, but only for a little while because he said, you know, if my dad finds out that you're here, he's going to be mad.
And I don't want him to be mad at me. Okay.
So his dad. We should have just done that to begin with.
Well, and his dad said, quote, he testified to this.
He said, quote, when we're not at home, he's not allowed to go out and play.
He's not allowed to let anyone in. Which is understandable, 100%.
So he was like, yeah, I would have been pissed.
He's not supposed to be out playing. So they did start, you know, they took turns.
They were pitching and hitting the ball with each other.
The space they were in, Josh said, was only like, there was only going to be like four feet between them.
And they were pitching and hitting a baseball to each other.
Yeah, that's a little too close. So he said he had one really strong swing because he really... wanted to hit the ball and he said he accidentally hit her near her left eye with the baseball okay She got a huge gash in her forehead and she fell down, started crying and like screaming loudly.
So he got super scared because he was like, she's not supposed to be here.
And now I just gashed open her head. Right.
So he said he tried to clean the blood, which I love the first thing he says is he tries to clean the blood off the ball as best he can.
That's nice, you douchebag. Yes, definitely do that.
And then he put it inside the house. And just left her on the lawn?
Like, dude. Well, he said she was still yelling and screaming because...
She was in pain. And he said he didn't know what to do.
So he said she started to quiet down. So he dragged her. into the house and into his room.
And he said he was so scared that his father was going to be mad at him for playing with her. that he panicked, and he said she was bleeding like a ton from the gash.
Wow. Still crying really loudly. So he said he tried to stop her by putting his hand over her mouth and like telling her stop crying.
Which probably terrified her even more. Exactly.
So she kept screaming. She's crying. She's making a ton of noise.
So he said he just had to shut her up. So he said he took the baseball bat and he hit her in the head with it with a strong overhand swing.
Overhand. So he said she kept going, so he hit her a second time.
Oh, no, no, no, no, no. And he said, quote, jamming the end of the bat on her head.
And then he hit her a third time. Now, he said this was a full strength bat swing to the head.
Was this like a metal baseball bat? I believe it was wooden.
Now, the coroner later said that these head injuries would have eventually killed her anyway.
If that was just it, that would have killed her.
That wasn't just it. So Maddie was apparently whimpering and moaning still slightly.
So he said she was still making noise. I'm going to start crying.
So I took my knife. that was on the bookshelf, and he stabbed her twice in the neck.
He said the whole time Maddie was basically not, this is according to him and nobody believes this.
He's saying she wasn't fighting back or trying to escape, which I don't believe.
No. He's still panicking, and now he said he opened the side of the waterbed and the side wooden panel underneath the waterbed, and he put...
Maddie under there. Now he has blood all over him.
So he said he went into the bathroom. He cleaned up.
He like basically like showered. Yeah. And he said while he was cleaning up, he walked by his bedroom and he heard Maddie still moaning under the bed.
Oh, my God. So he reopened the bed. No.
He took her out and he stabbed her in the chest nine times until she stopped breathing.
Then he said he put her back under the bed with his feet.
He closed the panel and he heard nothing else.
5.35 p.m., his dad came home from work and made dinner. what the police asked him next, where they said, okay, this is all well and fine.
Like, it makes sense what you're saying.
Like, it makes sense what you're saying.
It's adding up. And they said, what about how she was dressed?
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. So when she was found, she was naked from the waist down.
Oh, no. Now Josh says her shorts and underwear came off when he dragged her into the room.
Doesn't make any sense. Were there, like, buttons?
And it's like, that doesn't make any... It just doesn't make sense.
They didn't come all the way off. No. Both of those things.
Maybe they'd be a little awry, but they would not be... Off.
All the way off. And he said... Her shoes came off when he shoved her under the bed the second time.
Her shoes just came off. Yeah. No. So it's like her underwear and her shorts came off her while you were dragging her with her shoes on over her shoes?
Right. No. And he said he remembers the shorts being down when he got into the room, but he said he wasn't sure of her underwear.
Also, her shirt was, and this came out in trial, her shirt was pulled up on her chest.
And they said she was stabbed nine times in the chest and there were no stab wounds to the fabric.
Okay. So, yeah. Also, her shorts and underwear that he says fell off when he was dragging her. were placed beneath the mattress on the like wall side, which means they were put in there first.
And then she was put in there. Okay. Which, if you put her in there after they had already fallen off... you'd probably just throw them in after.
Right. Unless you had already taken them off.
Right. And then you'd put them in first.
Right. So it's like, gotcha. That's not true.
Yeah. Oh, this is really fucked up. Now he said that night that this all happened.
He said there was a knock on the door right after this all happened.
And it was Mrs. Clifton. And she was knocking on the door, yelling for Maddie.
And Josh's father said, I didn't even know who... really who Maddie was at first.
Like, I was like, wait, what? Like, you know what I mean?
I think I know who she is. Like, I think he plays with her.
So this is when his father called Josh and was like, you need to go out and help.
Look for her. And he was like, okay. So he did.
He left and he went out helping, looking for her.
That is psychotic. Yeah. So Josh said to the police, I slept all week on the bed.
That's fucked up. Yeah. He said on Wednesday he put the tape on it because he could start smelling her.
And he said during the week he would burn incense, he would use the plug-ins, the aerosols, like anything to mask the odor.
And he just didn't know what he was gonna do.
This kid's a fucking weirdo, dude. And he said he used... transparent tape to go over the corners of the partition first, but then he used black tape on top of that to reinforce it. uh-huh and he when they asked him like what did you think you were gonna do like what what was your end game here he was like i have no idea like i have no idea And they were like, were you literally just going to let her decompose to dust under your bed?
And he was like, yeah. And he was literally like, yeah, I don't know.
Like, I don't know what my end game was.
Eventually you're going to get maggots under your bed, bruh.
Yeah. I mean, I'm surprised no bugs were there to begin with.
Ew, ew, ew. but they did ask the sheriff they asked him like you know what was it like finding that because that must have been awful yeah And he said, he said at that point, you know, decomposition has started.
And he was like, it's the worst thing I've ever seen in my life and will ever see.
He was like, I can't imagine sleeping on top of that.
Which is, that's the part that just... It boggles the mind.
You know, this is going to sound so stupid, but you know, like, when your foot comes out of the cover and, like, you think a fucking ghost is going to come get you?
There's a... I didn't kill anybody and I think that.
Yeah. There's a corpse under your bed. You're sleeping on top of a corpse and you're not freaked out?
Yeah. It's like crazy. Yeah. Now, four days after she was found, her funeral was held.
It was on Saturday, November 14th at the San Jose Catholic Church in Jacksonville.
1,200 people came. Wow. And hundreds more outside the door.
At the funeral, because I just want to put this out there because...
People should know more about Maddie. Yeah.
Not just about Josh the fucking monster.
I feel like it's going to make me cry, though.
They said she loved to giggle, but they described her as tough as nails.
Mm-hmm. they said she was very vibrant she liked to play hockey football basketball but she also loved to dance and play piano So again, she's like the most well-rounded, just like cool chick.
Yeah. Oh, a neighbor said... She was an amazing little girl.
She could be a little ballerina at one time and a tough football fullback at another time.
And when she talked, she made sure you listened.
She was a very sweet little girl. And then another neighbor said everybody loved her.
And when they asked later, Josh, when they asked him, they were like, why did you kill her?
Like why? Did you go through all of that?
Like just because you were scared of your dad?
Like that... I don't understand this. His answer was...
I don't know. I don't think I have the answer.
Maybe I should get some kind of counseling or something to find out what's wrong with me.
Yeah. So it's like this super goofy, normal... friendly kid just all of a sudden turns into, like... Yeah, I don't know.
Maybe I should get some counseling. And it's like, what?!
! So none of your dark passenger shit leaked out at all until this one moment?
Which by all accounts, it's like, what are you?
Like, he's an anomaly. He's an anomaly of nature.
He truly is. Because none of this is precedented.
You know what I mean? It's just very weird.
So on to the trial. I'm just going to give you a couple things about this.
It's Wednesday, November 11th was like the first, you know, hearing.
Mm-hmm. He was held in Duval County Juvenile Detention Center, and he was held in isolation.
He was held there until the trial in August 1999.
And it was because they were scared of his safety, basically, that they had to put him in isolation.
On November 16th, the state attorney Harry L. Shorstein went on record and said the state planned to try him.
As an adult. Wow. Good. Which is crazy. Like, I don't mean crazy like they shouldn't have.
It's just that doesn't happen a lot. And he wanted the grand jury to indict him on a first-degree murder charge.
On Thursday, November 19th, 1998, he was indicted for the murder of Madeline Rae Clifton in the first degree.
And Florida usually gives the death penalty for that.
But because of his age, he could only get life in prison. which is without the possibility of parole.
Okay. He entered a not guilty plea. Why?
That always is like, at first you're always like, fuck you, you admitted it.
You know what I mean? Right. I never understand that.
There's always legal mumbo jumbo that like goes along with that.
You know what I mean? I think it's so stupid.
Yeah, it is. It really is. So the trial was scheduled for April 5th, 1999, and Judge Charles Arnold was presiding over the charge.
Do you know what I just thought of? Like, not guilty because of insanity.
I think that's kind of what it is. It leaves you open to do these things.
Because as soon as you say you're guilty, you're fucked.
That's it. This just says medical examiner.
So the medical examiner was Dr. Floro, and he gave his testimony about what he saw. happening so again trigger warning we're going to talk about like the medical examiner's findings which can get a little gruesome He said there were three separate attacks on Maddie, like Josh had admitted.
The three blows. The eyeball. Yeah, like the blows with the bat. the stab to the neck, and then the stabs to the chest.
So he said... it was consistent that the lacerations on her head were caused by a baseball or some similar object.
He said that he agreed there were two stabbings to the throat, nine to the chest, and the abdomen area.
He said he was unsure. He wasn't able to tell for sure whether the throat... injury happened first or whether she was hit over the head first.
Like Josh was saying, she was hit over the head first, then he cut her.
He said he didn't feel comfortable saying that that was absolutely true.
But he said either way, both of them happened.
He just didn't want to totally agree with Josh's version.
He said the blood spatter on the ceiling fan does indicate that she was obviously struck in the head in his bedroom. and that it was an overhead swing and blow and pull back so that's where that spat like he came down he pulled the weapon back and it sprays into the ceiling right He said there was an injury near her eye that could have been caused by the baseball, like he was saying.
Yeah. Because it was, he said it was like different than the other ones.
It wasn't like he didn't crack her skull like the baseball bat did.
Yeah. But he said the baseball, that could have been him telling the truth that she was hit with the baseball.
Okay. This part's a little rough. Just like...
Emotionally, I think. Well, this whole case has been... Yeah, this one part just kind of like gave me the...
The heebs. The heebs, yeah. So when she came for her autopsy, they noted that each of her hands were encased in a bag that was tied at the wrist.
That was done by the crime scene technicians.
That's what they do. They encase your hands in a bag so that...
So nothing that's on your hands. Well, and also if you have any DNA under your fingernails or anything, they need to protect that.
So they do that. So he did indicate that that had happened.
And then he said when he opened the bag, there was a bracket that that was in the bag.
This bracket was part of the bed, but only three were accounted for when they searched the crime scene.
So what they thought was, he said, it wasn't in her hand, but it was in the bag with her hand.
So he said what he thinks is that at one point she was holding that bracket.
So he said she was trying to get out. What that seems to be is that she was still alive after she was pushed under the bed the first time.
So his version of events where he says he could still hear her.
Yeah. She was fighting to get out of there.
And not only was she alive, but she was trying to get out.
Oh my god. He did say that all nine injuries to the stomach and lung area were inflicted post-mortem.
So what he heard after that, like whatever time he, because again, his version of events might not line up with what actually happened.
Because what you're saying is that he said she was still moaning, so he pulled her back out and stabbed her.
But in all reality, he stabbed her after she had, like, there's no way she was moaning.
Yeah. And what could have happened was she could have made a noise.
Because you do sometimes. Because it can happen.
But it's like he could have... Or it could have been a totally...
You know, he just wanted to stab her more.
Yeah, it could have been any kind. So that's what he's saying.
He's like, I don't know exactly. If what he's saying is true.
What he's saying, the injuries are consistent with what he's saying?
It just might not be how he's saying it happened or why he's saying these injuries happened.
Because he keeps saying it's just to keep her quiet.
When he's watching all these... violent torture things yeah so the jury deliberated for no uh i think just under two hours and they convicted him Josh Phillips, who was 15 years old at the time of first degree murder.
Yeah. Which was pretty unheard of for his age.
Now, they did have a doctor, Dr. Osha, I believe his name was.
He was not super established as a doctor.
He was like just out of medical school. Okay.
He did find a bifrontal lesion or a couple of them on Joshua's frontal lobes.
So what does that mean? It can basically be linked to unexplained violent outbursts in teenagers. because your frontal lobes are not fully developed.
So if they have lesions on them, that's going to cause issues. they wanted to use this in court but they didn't end up using it because one I think they were a little concerned with his credibility, the doctor.
Not that he wasn't a good doctor, but he didn't have a lot behind him.
Yeah. And then also he was far away and they needed him to come to testify and he wasn't willing to do that.
Okay. So scratch that. That's something at least like there is an abnormality on his frontal lobe.
Okay. Nothing is really conclusive about what that means anymore.
So August 20th, 1999, he was up for sentencing.
This is when his parents and Maddie's parents could get up and give statements.
Oh, God. And Maddie's mom gave a statement that just, like, hurt my heart.
She said, quote, no one or nothing can look up at me with those big brown eyes.
Pictures and memories. That's all I've got.
I will never see Maddie play again. I will never see her fulfill her dreams.
I will never kiss her, tell her I love her and send her out to play. again right like that just i i just almost like i got that a little bit i got that lump in my throat He was luckily sentenced to life in prison without parole.
And Judge Arnold said in his final statement to him, he spoke right to him, and he said quote i do not perceive you to be a child your monstrous act made you an adult And that's how I feel.
You do an adult crime, you do the adult time. he also went on to say i am certain that on your judgment day you joshua earl patrick phillips will be given a harsher sentence than i could ever impose I love when judges say when they get like sassy as fuck like they just like lay it down I love it I feel like that's a part of judge school.
I feel like you have to take a class on that.
Because they're all so good at it. Yeah, they are.
Like, so good. Like, that, I was like...
Yeah. That gave me a little chill. Yeah.
He did have a couple of appeals. Because there were, like, laws that came about that the Supreme Court handed down and such about, you know, underage people being sentenced to...
So in 2002, they appealed his life sentence based on the Eighth Amendment of the Bill of Rights that says...
And they were claiming... Sentencing a 14-year-old to life in prison with no parole is cruel and unusual.
So is murder. so the appeal court said quote we find no harmful error occurred at trial and affirm his conviction As for his sentence, Mr. Phillips' primary contention is that his chronological age renders his punishment cruel and unusual.
We do not feel that way. And his sentence was upheld.
He went back in 2017 along with 79 other cases like his.
Because this is when they went back to appeal based on the U.S.
Supreme Court's ruling in 2012 that it was unlawful. to automatically send youthful offenders away for life.
Because, and this law came, this whole ruling came into effect. because they said science shows that the brain is not fully developed until you're in your mid-20s.
Okay. So they said an underdeveloped adolescent brain can't make logical and rational decisions all the time, and...
We can't put someone away for that when they haven't fully become a human yet.
But it's scary to think that, like... Yes, the frontal lobe is your decision-making department.
Yeah. But also... But there's other things that go into it.
Right. And those remain the same. And what if we let you out and then another kid gets murdered because your brain is fucked up.
Exactly. And that's like, there's so many layers to this.
This is another evil onion situation. This is not just a case of frontal lobe issues.
This is not just a frontal lobe party. You can't blame it on the frontal lobe.
No. Blame it on the rain. Blame it on the booze.
Yeah, yeah. So now the court says that he's a model inmate.
He's now a Buddhist. He has... Yeah, cool.
That's fine. You know who else is a model inmate?
Catherine Knight. Exactly. She skinned her husband a lot.
Exactly. You know who else is a Buddhist?
I don't know, but. But people are. Yeah.
But they use this to try to get his appeal in 2008.
You know what he is? A poser. They said his IQ is above average.
Don't care. He's in the top 85th percentile.
He's received his high school diploma in prison.
Cool. In 2003, the Department of Corrections certified him as a law clerk.
And he got a diploma to work as a legal assistant and law clerk.
You know who didn't get to do all that? Maddie.
Because he killed her. Exactly. Exactly.
And it says he's using these things to help other inmates with their appeals.
So... He also teaches GED science and math to other inmates for them to get their high school degrees.
Big whoop. So they basically used all this as like, look, he's using his time well.
That's what that was all about. I'm not saying that like, look at how good he is.
Oh, I know. They're using that as like...
He's using his time well and see he's a different person.
He's not that 14 year old. I get the argument.
It's just like... This crime is so gruesome.
Exactly. And so what I think I'm going to do with my next mini-morbid is I want to dive further into that. about minors being sentenced to life in prison and whether or not it makes sense.
I want to go further into the science of that.
I feel like it's a case-by-case situation.
It is. Because the thing is, if he had just... like if she had gotten hit by the baseball and like that incapacitated her and then Like he, somehow she died after that because like the ball hit her too hard or something like that.
Like, and he was scared. Like that's one thing.
Yeah. And, like, he didn't want to say anything, you know what I mean?
Like, if that was a thing. But also, like, that's not the only thing that happened. way further than that it was overkill way further than that in what he says now about it because he didn't He didn't say a word when he was like 14.
Right. He was just sitting there looking at the floor.
This is what he said directly to Maddie's parents.
He's never apologized to them until now.
In 20, this is when he appealed. This is in like 2017 when he was like, I feel like I can say something to them.
Okay. He said to them, I had no clue what life meant, what death meant, the depths of suffering that would follow one act.
I had no inkling of how long suffering could last.
I have lived long enough to understand what real suffering was.
I did something horrible and I'm so sorry.
I'm so sorry. Even now, after all these years, it is just so unfathomable that this all could have occurred.
It tears my mind to know that I stole such a precious life from you, from the world.
I wish I could take away your pain. I pray every day that you are able to live your life in spite of the injury I have caused you.
I'm supremely grateful to have an opportunity for physical freedom.
If any joy arises in my heart, it's immediately tempered by knowing that these proceedings bring all of it up again, face to face, the horror that occurred in 1998.
When I walk the rec yard here in chains, I look to the skies through mesh wiring and thank God repeatedly for giving me hope. but my next breath is always devoted to wishing peace and healing to you all.
Now, to me, this seems like, yes, I think he is a different person than when he was 14, but I also think...
That this is a guy who's very smart and knows what he needs to say.
Yeah. Maybe he is sorry, but sorry doesn't make it go away.
And it certainly doesn't mean that you should go walking the streets.
Like, you know what I mean? Just because you're saying you're sorry.
You know what the other thing is, too? It's like... before he killed Maddie, there was no inkling that, like he said, like there was no inkling.
And right now it's like, oh, he's changed.
It's like, we have no reason to believe that he would do this again.
Unless you just accept it. explode again right like you did the first time it's exactly what we were saying before how None of this leaked out even slightly.
And then it exploded in the most horrific, nightmarish way.
How do we know that won't happen again? And it's like all his teachers and the friend's parents were like, we never would have expected this.
So it's like, what if it happened again?
And the prison system is like, we never would have expected this.
I was going to, yeah, and all the corrections officers and everybody in there is like, no, he's great.
He's a wonderful person. I would never see him doing anything.
And then boom, something triggers him. so November 17th 2007 Judge Waddell Wallace made his ruling He says, I'm just going to read you a couple of little quotes.
I'm not going to read the whole thing because it's a very long thing that he read.
Mm-hmm. He said, so he went through a whole thing that said, you know, do I think that you're a different person than you were when you were 14?
Yes, I do. Do I think that like, you know, it could be considered unfair to think that you should have all the answers at 14 and act accordingly.
Yes, I do. but he said quote but i think if you looked at the evidence as it was developed and some of this was developed more after the trial than actually used at trial I think there's substantial evidence to believe that the young woman, Maddie, the girl, was lured over to Phillips' home with intent by Mr. Phillips to get her over there.
She was not supposed to be in there and had no particular reason in the evidence here to want to go to interact with Mr. Phillips or go to his house.
So it looks as if this was a sexually motivated case in which the defendant lured Maddie. with a sexual motive involved, and that the killing itself was brutal enough and perhaps was motivated or arose from a concern about not being caught or keeping the young victim from running next door and reporting what had just happened.
So he's saying, I think you molested her and then you killed her to shut her up.
That's what I think happened. Because they also, this was because of decomposition, I think they couldn't tell if she was molested.
Yeah. But they did find semen. Oh. So either way, they are... On her?
They think that... I think it was maybe...
On her clothing. Oh, God. Or it was at least in his, which indicates that...
He was aroused at some point during this.
I mean, that's not good. No. So and all of that was kind of like a little confuddled because I think the DNA was a little tough.
And not to argue that he didn't. But he had just watched.
Right. Yeah. And I'm sure he was wearing the same clothes.
That's the other reason I think they couldn't really... because they were like, we can't tell whether it was during that or if it... Because she came over right after, so it's like...
You don't know when to happen. God, that's really a lot.
I know, it really is. Wow, I feel like I'm going to think about this case.
I feel like this really left an impact on me.
So then the judge went into, you know, the overkill and that you kept going back.
You kept hurting her. And he said, quote, so you have at least three stages of blows or stabbings to the child in order to affect the killing.
Is this impetuosity? Like, impetuous? Like, were you just spontaneously doing this?
Like, no, you were making... To continue, right.
Is this the split-second decision of young people with the bravado of a peer group around in a school fight or a neighborhood fight?
No. It's something that was done calculatedly, carefully, coldly with a plan in mind, a plan that goes bad.
And then with time, to think about what you're doing or do something different, the blows necessarily bring about the death.
We're done in stages. Rather than one terrible split second bad decision to pull a handgun out and then in the fray of combat the handgun goes off and kills somebody.
Right. It's very different in that sense.
Exactly. So after all that, he said, so when you take into these individual characteristics here, for all the circumstances as outlined, I think this justifies the sentence of life.
And again, it is a sad day because I'm not unmindful about the fact that he was 14 years of age and that to lose your freedom of something you did at 14 is extraordinary.
And that's why we've gone to this effort to have this hearing while the Supreme Court ruled the way it did, why the Florida legislator acted and passed the sentencing scheme that we did. and why I think this is rare.
The jury verdict stands. The jury found the defendant guilty of first-degree murder, and so the court then again adjudicates the defendant guilty of that crime as charged in count one of the indictment.
So it was upheld and he is still going to stay there.
That's good. I'm glad. Now, I think in 2023, he has another appeal.
Do you know how many he has left? I don't know.
I don't know how all this works because it's different from like parole.
And it's different from like every state.
So he's eventually going to run out of appeals.
I just don't know how many you get. That is the case of...
Maddie Clifton and Joshua Phillips. That really did something to my...
Heart, soul, brain, and stomach. Yeah. And only a couple years from now, he's going to be up and appeal again.
I don't think he'll get one. I don't think he will.
Because I think it's going to be the same situation.
No matter what he says. Because that's my whole point.
It wasn't one thing that happened that you were like, fuck.
Yeah. this one thing happened and now I need to hide her.
Yeah. It was like continuous. Cause that's the thing.
It's like certain things where you're like, okay, he was scared.
Like, if he hit her, she went unconscious.
He thought she was dead. I mean, I don't know.
Because I can't wrap my own brain around it.
The situation just would have had to go completely differently.
It would have had to have more accidents. written all over it you know what I mean the only accident that happened was he hit her in the face and I just wish that she like ran away to her mom yeah just ran away ow or somebody heard her I don't understand.
And came running. Well, and the other thing is it's like this was whatever time, like a little after 5.30 or something.
Yeah. It's interesting to me that nobody heard her screaming on the front lawn.
But you know what? Then I think about it.
And I'm like, okay. So at night, when we're out taking walks and stuff, I hear kids screaming all the time, playing.
It is hard to distinguish between a scream for help and what kids... Because kids scream bloody murder.
Right, when they're playing. Because they think it's funny. but i'm saying like they the police and stuff went around and said like did you hear anything did you see anything and i i just feel like you would be like oh i heard i did hear kids screaming or yeah but maybe they said that maybe they said i heard kids screaming and they were like do you know if it was maddie and they were like i don't know right I just heard kids screaming.
I'm just saying that could be like a loophole in the story.
Like maybe she never... Yeah. I know she got hit in the face, but... Yeah, I mean, it could.
So, yeah. Wow. So this was a very long mini-morbid, but I hope you guys are okay.
Thanks for listening. Yeah. So in the meantime of you putting your soul back together.
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