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our tiktok journey with my book shouldn't be outside enjoying the sunlight night should be in a cave what an unhinged thing to say to a human being truly hilarious hilarious i think even kale would agree that that's fucking hilarious but like whoa yeah it's so brain just say to another person it's so calm you should be in a cave you should be in a cave yeah i love it i think it's hilarious and i love her reaction because she's just like what what the fuck are are you talking about it's so good oh but that tiktok was really fun to film yeah you guys have been amazing about it so thanks for being
so great what's your tiktok handle you bitch uh what is it i think it's elena to the max but everything is elena to the max you gotta let the people know every time it's how we're gonna drive that's how you drive people to your tiktoks you know i am we'll be doing more and as september 17th approaches which is the day that the book comes out the butcher game the butcher game .com if you need to order something you can pre -order it might come the day before who knows that's always fun and like more signed copies might be happening maybe right who knows you never know the world is an oyster and it's
yours and it's my oyster yeah no theirs no well it's all of ours yeah everybody's oyster we can all have a part unless you have a shellfish allergy i actually don't like shellfish so it's my like meatball sub i would say i have to tell you something i told you i was never gonna eat eat oysters again I ate them vibrio I ate them but I'm only eating them in places where like I feel like the water is super fresh it's a vibe vibrio is also a vibe no vibrio is actually not a vibe it's some kind of vibrio is a is a is a dang time with fire my friend I know well yolo you know here we are but yeah we
love yolo as the kids would say I don't think they say that anyway.
Yoilo. I accidentally said Yoilo.
Yoilo. Here we are.
I don't know. I have an interesting case today to tell you all about.
Do you? I do. It's kind of like not really like, well, that's not true.
I was going to say it's not like anything.
It's not like anything we've ever done before.
Totally different. But it's not.
It's sort of. It's like in a different wheelhouse, but it's still our wheelhouse, I feel.
All right. It's a kidnapping, I'd like to warn you, at the top of the show okay so it's a little bit intense okay but i'm going to also tell you it has a happy ending oh good okay and nobody dies there's no murder look at that yeah so that's wow that is different so here we are different wheelhouse all right so should we dive in let's dive in it's been a long time i know i did that and it just came to me i did all right so we're going to be talking about the disappearance of delamar vera delamar vera was born december 5th 1997 so like we're about the same age look at that too i think it's pronounced
loose i looked it up cuevas and pedro vera a young couple they were living in feltonville north philadelphia loose was beyond excited are you here we go excited loose was beyond excited about the arrival of her baby daughter but she always maintained her then -husband Pedro hadn't been super stoked about the prospect of having children.
He was like yeah woohoo.
According to her not super excited.
That's not great. In fact according to her when the baby was born Pedro actually refused to sign the birth certificate which she pointed to as evidence that he quote did not want the child.
I think that's pretty glaring evidence I would say.
Yeah I'm like I don't love that.
That's really sad. I know but a little more More than a week later, on December 15th, Luce was home with Pedro, their new baby, Delamar, which I think is such a pretty name.
Yeah. And their two sons, who at that time were four and five.
And around 7 p .m., there was a knock on the door, and Luce answered it to find a woman who she'd never met before standing on her doorstep.
The woman, Carolyn Carrera, was actually Pedro's cousin by marriage.
She was from New Jersey, and she said she was there hoping that Pedro might take a look at her car.
She said her car was having brake problems. Pedro was good with car stuff.
of so she kind of just showed up from New Jersey and said hey take a look at my breaks okay random yeah unexpected this is why I don't answer the door oh I never answer no I literally never answer the door even when it's people I'm expecting I said Drew you said nope can you get the door please oh yeah I don't even answer the door then yeah nope nope but Pedro agreed to take a look at the car but before he did he said he needed to run some errands and go grocery shopping so while he was out the two women remained at the house just kind of making small small talk because remember they don't know
each other so yeah it's like a pretty awkward situation but she's kind of family like she's family so she loses trying to like be a good entertainer i'd be like sorry but she said later on she would describe it as an uncomfortable conversation yeah i can imagine and also having just given birth a little over a week earlier i don't think you'd really want to be entertaining by yourself no you don't but because she had just given birth only a week earlier or like a little more than a week earlier the subject of a baby came up naturally and this woman carolyn mentioned that she and her boyfriend
andrea moore had also just recently had a baby she said same sister wow now as the women were chatting downstairs lou suddenly heard a loud bang upstairs that sounded like an explosion and the baby sleeping upstairs what the fuck so she is all obviously terrified and she runs upstairs and goes into to delamar's room but by the time she reached the room a small fire had broken out and the room was beginning to fill with smoke holy shit now despite the large amount of smoke now and the fumes just rapidly filling the room luce was able to get to the crib she was completely determined to get there
and got there but delamar was nowhere to be seen what the fuck she was gone in her own room Yep.
She had just been sleeping in her room and then she heard a loud bang and the baby was gone by the time she got to the crib.
That's everyone's worst nightmare.
And it's also just like, how did this happen?
She was upstairs and I've been downstairs this whole time.
Like, where's the baby?
So a few seconds later, the smoke had become unbearable and Luce was forced out of the room.
After catching her breath, she tried again to go back in the room and get to the crib.
She actually suffered burns to her face and her arms. But but when she reached the crib, her first impression was confirmed.
There was definitely no baby in that crib.
What the fuck? No, she also noticed that the window in the room was open, and she knew that there was no way she would have done that herself.
No. Just one, having the baby in the room by herself, she wasn't going to open the window, but also it was a cold night, so it just wouldn't have been something that she'd do.
So this was shocking, but the fire had grown out of control at that point, and she didn't have time to think because also she had other children that she had to get to.
Oh, yeah, she has a four - and five -year -old baby.
So they were forced outside, and this is heartbreaking.
Neighbors just could hear her screaming, my baby, my baby, over and over again.
So hearing the noise and seeing the smoke and fire coming from the house, a neighbor, 20 -year -old Jose Rosario, rushed over and tried to get into the house to save the baby.
Later, he told journalists that he heard crying.
So covering his face, he tried to climb the stairs to get to the baby, but the smoke was so thick he just couldn't get in there he said i tried the best i could but the smoke was choking me other neighbors also tried to help like chico frazon who tried to douse the house with his garden hose but it just the fire was out of control garden hose wasn't going to do anything he told a reporter the flames were just too much damn so firefighters arrived at the scene quickly and they pushed back what was now a really big crowd and they were all just the crowd was shouting like, save the baby, save the baby.
Oh, man. Frazon remembered the neighbors were outside yelling, there's a baby in there.
There's a baby. And Luce also reported to the firefighters that she had gone to her daughter's room when the fire first broke out, but that she had found no baby in the crib where she had expected her baby Delamar to be.
That's horrifying. Now, there's no documentation of how firefighters responded to the claims, but it's pretty clear from their later statements that they didn't believe Luce at the time.
Why the fuck would she say that?
I don't really know.
Within about 10 minutes, firefighters had things under control, luckily.
And the fire was extinguished.
But the small row house had been completely gutted.
And there was no sign of little Delamar. Now, just then, Pedro returned to find the house destroyed, his wife being packed into an ambulance.
And he found out that his daughter was consumed by the fire.
That's what firefighters told him.
Holy shit. yeah delamar ended up being declared dead at the scene and fire officials explained to pedro that they found no body because her remains were completely destroyed by the flames now just up front that is not what happened so don't think for a second that that's what happened but that's what this family was told holy shit but they never believed it wow pedro didn't believe it and neither did loose wow so the next day fire captain henry dulberry told the press the fire was caused by a a home -rigged extension cord connected to a space heater, which must have thrown a spark at some point
and started the fire.
Oh, man. Neighbor Gloria Mojica said it's a shame because they were just trying to find a way to keep themselves warm.
Yeah. Luz was discharged from Temple University Hospital just one day after the fire, and she learned that not only were there no remains to bury, but also that as a result of there not being a body, the medical examiner actually couldn't issue a death certificate or even legally declare delamar dead holy shit so like firefighters first responders said like declared they're dead at the scene but they couldn't legally do that like like yeah like firefighters could yeah but they couldn't have it on record like official record exactly and if the parents wanted or needed that formality they were gonna have to
go and petition a court to get their child declared legally dead yeah when they don't know that for sure exactly wow so the family was was understandably devastated yeah but they didn't really have a lot of choice but to move on and try to make things the best they could for their two living children so they moved to a new house and in 1999 luce gave birth to a fourth child a boy that they named samuel they felt happy about adding to their family obviously but the loss of a child took a really heavy toll on them of course and in december of 2022 or excuse me 2002 luce and pager separated for good
that's so common it is when you lose a child when you lose a child and just like grief in general that's yeah that can tear people apart and by that time they really just agreed on very little and their communication was just it had gotten really bad but they did agree on one thing they both believed that delamar was still alive in 2004 luce said i always knew that my daughter did not die in that that fire they were actually both very public about their beliefs Gloria Mojica recalled every time I'd see Pedro he'd say the same thing my baby's alive I know it wow they just like like felt it in their
hearts and it's like you can see how like the whole thing changed his perspective on yeah like being a father with this child you know what I mean like you can tell he immediately was like that's my baby that's my baby my baby's alive it's like a very cliche thing to say but but you don't know what you have till it's gone.
Yeah. It's like, obviously, he was like, that's my child.
And they were correct, it sounds like.
So it's like they both have that parent connection.
Definitely. Now, Pedro wasn't just convinced that his daughter was alive, but he was also determined to find her wherever she had gone.
Hell yeah, Pedro. I know.
Let's go. Mojica said he would tell me he was pursuing it, though what exactly that meant, how he was pursuing it, remains unclear.
But you know what? He had intentions, too.
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So on January 24, 2004, Luce went to a family party thrown by Pedro's sister, Evelyn, where she spotted a young girl who looked to be about six years old.
According to Luce, the girl, quote, bore a striking resemblance to herself and her other children.
Stop. loose like we said never believed delamar died in the fire so when she saw the child she instantly felt that it was delamar holy shit and she's just at a family party and at a family party that feeling became even stronger when she realized that the girl's mother was carolyn i think it's correa i did i didn't trust this lady the second you said she showed up at the door she just showed up at the door from new jersey randomly and was like hey my breaks are i didn't I want to say it for fear that like she was an innocent bystander here.
She's not. So I was keeping it inside, but I was like, I don't know about this girl.
Imagine, like don't you imagine this, but listen, imagine your child goes missing from your home while a weird stranger is there.
And then you go to a family party and you see what you know is your child or like very, very strongly believe is your child.
and the lady who you had a weird feeling about already is claiming to be the mother no or is the lady that took this this child to the party like you dealt or luce must have felt like she was in an alternate fucking universe and the the feeling of like helplessness at first must have been unreal because it's like what do i do when everyone's gonna think i sound cuckoo nuts bananas and it's like if you know that's your child you're like well i'm gonna burn the i'm gonna like scorch the earth to get this child back so like i guess let's fucking go like that would be my i'd be like let's go let's
go let's fucking go like i'm gonna burn the whole place down i would like i'm getting that kid back well don't you worry loose is the baddest bitch in the game i knew it about luce so carolyn introduced this girl as a leah was like this is my daughter a leah but luce just couldn't shake the feeling that not a leah this was her daughter delamar oh my god and she was like she started putting two and two together and she's like i don't know how but somehow carolyn kidnapped my baby on the night of the fire like i just she kept her distracted downstairs she later told a reporter those dimples were all
the dna i needed to be certain because she had these cute little dimples mama shit yeah she had that child for like a little over a week literally a little over a week like that's like like luckily like luckily many of us do not have to worry about like what how you would be able to identify your child older when not seeing them for their entire life but hearing this you're just just like damn like that parent like love and knowledge for your like who your child is yeah that's unbelievable it's a force it's a little over a week reckoned with you knew this infant newborn yeah and then you see them
years later and you're like that's my kid and like let's be real most newborns look alike like exactly newborns all look pretty similar that's unbelievable yeah that's really unbelievable this family is iconic yeah they're incredible so according to pedro's cousin Jose Vera this was actually not the first time either Pedro or Luz had seen Aaliyah and while they weren't exactly close with Carolyn they were still related and had some contact with her over the years but not much but Jose Vera said they agreed the child looked like them and Pedro always thought it was his daughter but nothing ever
happened till now oh damn so he claimed that although although Pedro had seen the girl in person at family functions Luz had only ever ever seen her in photographs before this family function where she's like that's my daughter that's my child and she really didn't have a lot of contact with the family since ending her relationship with Pedro in 2002 but still they both together reported their suspicions to the police and nothing ever came of the complaints like from seeing the photographs and that kind of thing but now in 2004 with the girl just standing right in front of her loose was like without
a doubt 100 my daughter like i yeah i definitely thought so before but now i know but now i'm in front of her i'm in her presence i know it and she actually told the host of the party that she believed alia was delamar but given the unbelievable nature of the claim the host just kind of dismissed what she was saying and was like no no that's carolyn's daughter like you must be mistaken and probably felt bad probably was like that i have to tell you like i'm sorry no like that's somebody else's his daughter right but luz's own brother even doubted what she was saying and said we thought she was just
traumatized by the fire which like you can understand yeah because it's like that would be traumatizing i can't even fathom the amount of trauma she would have absolutely she didn't have i'm sure it's like so you and trauma makes you do some things that you know you wouldn't normally do or like makes you think things yeah she's desperate definitely find her child again so maybe this is one of those instances where it's like she's just desperate or maybe not or Or maybe not.
So later that afternoon, Luz was like, okay, you guys can all think I'm cuckoo nuts bananas, but I'm not.
And I'm going to prove it to all of you.
She's like, nope. So she approached the girl, the little girl, and just made small talk with her.
And then right before Aaliyah was about to run off, Luz told her, oh, you have some gum in your hair.
Like, let me help you with that.
And while she removed the gum, or like while she pretended to remove the gum, she used it as an opportunity to get a hair sample that she could take to the police for DNA testing.
when i said is a fucking yes icon when i said baddest bitch in the game i meant it loose i want to like shake loose's hand like holy shit loose and that is genius level she's so nonchalant about it too she told reporters later because of tv i knew they needed hair for the dna oh bitch like a loose's she's like i just watched tv i learned some shit that's elite that's elite elite behavior, Luce.
And also that's elite behavior because you did nothing to scare this girl.
And that's a mama. And nothing to inform her that her, you know, anything was being called into question.
Like, that's unbelievable.
Unbelievable. Truly unbelievable.
Because your first instinct might be to just like, you know, you're like, again, you're traumatized.
You're desperate to find your child.
Yeah. You would want to run up to her and just be like, Like, you're my baby.
Like, you know what I mean?
I'm taking you with me.
But this child clearly was gone barely a week after her birth.
Whoever mother, quote unquote, she thinks is her mother, that's the only mother she's known.
That's the thing. She's six years old.
She's been raised for six years by Carolyn.
You can't scare her.
You can't make her question her whole upbringing.
You don't know what kind of life she's had.
You don't know anything about that.
So, it's like you can't just run up to her and be like, I think you're my kid.
like she's like she's gonna be like what so doing that in such a way that is one brilliant into totally nonchalant and not upsetting to that girl at all is like mama mama well done loose so a few days after the party loose brought the hares to her local philadelphia police precinct to ask for help and they redirected her to a lab where she could actually get the dna testing done hell yeah according to the official story remember delamar vera had died in a tragic fire and police never believed she was kidnapped, so there was actually little they could have done to help her at the time.
According to Representative Angel Cruz, who would eventually prove instrumental in solving this case, the language barrier between Luz, who spoke very little English, and law enforcement might have caused additional confusion and prevented faster action.
I'm sure. So Luz had hoped to get the DNA test done to prove that Aaliyah was her daughter, but with limited english language skills no information about how to access laboratory testing and of course little financial resources that kind of thing is so expensive yeah the chances that she would get answers were pretty slim but after hearing her story though a neighbor suggested that loose seek help from representative angel cruz who represented the largely latino philadelphia neighborhood that loose was living in at the time cruz said i must admit when loose first came to me with this story i had
trouble believing her i mean it's it's it's an incredible story it is yeah but something in the story struck him as being true so he agreed to speak with law enforcement on her behalf and explain what she had told him he was like i don't know but i'll try hell yeah cruz now when the fire first broke out in pedro and lucy's home in 1997 her instinct was to run to the the daughter's room and save her yeah it's worth noting she had been alerted to the danger because of the loud bang yeah not the fire itself which hadn't broken out yet by the time she reached the room huh and when she reached the crib
delamar had already vanished and then the fire began yeah that's the thing like when i was first telling that story you heard loud bang runs upstairs sees that the crib is empty and then the room starts filling with smoke and the fire breaks i was wondering like because i'm like what is this loud bang like what happened here exactly and you You could assume like, oh, that was the space heater exploding.
When you said that, I was like, oh, that must have been it.
But who knows? Maybe it was somebody opening the window.
Maybe it was a ladder being thrown on the side of the house.
I don't know. Yeah.
So all that to say, though, when Luce reported to fire officials that her daughter was missing, she meant that the girl hadn't been in the house when the fire began.
But as Angel Cruz pointed out, it's entirely possible that because of that language barrier, investigators just thought that she meant her daughter was trapped in the house during the fire.
Absolutely, I can see that.
Which you understand that, of course.
Any claims Luz and Pedro made after the fire were just dismissed as those of grieving parents struggling to accept what had happened.
Yeah, just not being willing to...
And also, when Luz initially took the lock of hair to the police, she brought it to the front desk of the precinct, because how would she know to bring it in?
I wouldn't know what to do with it.
But the receiving officer had no prior knowledge of the case, and there wasn't any kind of translator there to help with the barrier, the language barrier.
Oh, man. So she wasn't able to really convey, like, how important this was and what the background here was.
Yeah. That's so frustrating.
Yeah, it is. So to Angel Cruz, who spoke fluent Spanish, the story, like we said, was equally unbelievable.
And his instinct, though, was to respond exactly how law enforcement agents had over the years.
But the fact that Luz had never wavered in her belief and she was so thoroughly convinced that the girl was her daughter seemed good enough a reason to him to at least follow up.
Yeah. So he contacted the police on her behalf, and he was successfully able to convince them to follow up on this claim.
Another good, another goodie.
I know. This is full.
That's what I told you.
It started off and you're like, what the fuck are you about to tell me?
What is going on? But I'm like, no, it's a, it's a good story.
Yeah. He like, I promise you.
I promise you guys.
This just keeps going up and up and up.
It does. And it will.
Yeah. So given the details of the crime and the ages of the alleged or the age of the alleged victim.
The case was handed over to Lieutenant Michael Boyle of Philadelphia's Special Victims Unit, an episode of SVU, if you will.
In late February, detectives and agents from Child Protective Services went to Carolyn's home in New Jersey and explained the situation.
Now, given that so much depended on the outcome of the DNA tests, Aaliyah was actually removed from the home and temporarily placed in a foster care while investigators tried to untangle the the details of the case it's like that's so sad and she's probably remember like we said this is the only mom she's ever known she has no idea what's going on and she's a little girl she's probably like what the like what is going on yeah and it's like and again like this is this is all because somebody stole her and it's like luce is just trying to get her back and obviously they have to go through the steps
the proper steps to do they can't just rip her out of a home and be be like, well, she's yours now.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like, they could get in trouble for that.
Like, that's necessary.
But like, man, this kid didn't ask for any of this.
No. And poor Luce and Pedro didn't ask for any of this.
Carolyn, like, just victimized everybody in this family.
She victimized that child.
Yeah, exactly. And it's like, that's fucked up.
Just to get something she wanted.
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So according to Carolyn, she had given birth to her daughter Aaliyah in December of 1996, no you didn't right around the same time that luce had her baby oh wow in fact other family members and her own boyfriend at the time remembered her being pregnant and coming home with a baby at the end of december despite the number of times that pager had voiced his suspicions nobody ever thought to question carolyn and her boyfriend's claims because wow why would you yeah ever be like what would make you do it you know that's the thing that's the thing now Now, after all, while newborn babies do get kidnapped, it's kind
of a rare occurrence.
Yeah. I mean, you're not that's not the first thing you're thinking that these people staged a wild coup to steal your newborn.
And not only that, like I'm talking about like their own family.
Few people would want to believe their own relatives capable of this.
No. Can you imagine thinking of that?
No. Like in your own family?
No. That somebody in your own family stole another person's baby in your own family?
Absolutely not. Out of their crib?
After starting a fire in their house?
It's so beyond. But this time, through Luce's insistence and the new hair evidence and pending DNA results, it was compelling enough that at least a few members of law enforcement were starting to really take this seriously.
Hell yeah, let's go, everybody.
At first, everybody's like, yeah, we'll follow up.
But like, I don't know.
It was a case of let's fucking go.
And now it's like, let's fucking go.
So in late February, the results of the DNA test conducted on Aaliyah's hair came back and provided vital answers the girl that carolyn had been passing off as her daughter alia for the past six years nope that was della marvera fuck carolyn yeah fuck carolyn well what the fuck with the results in hand lieutenant boyle and his partner returned to carolyn's home in new jersey to confront her but by the time they got there she had already fled leaving her three other young children behind oh it's on site with carolyn on site like fuck you carolyn and that's an asshole that's the thing it's like
she's just out for her and hers you're evil not even her newborn you fucking asshole and then you abandon your three other children to flee law enforcement after you got caught it's i it's fucked to steal any newborn like don't keep it that weird to steal a newborn child from your family it's what like i know you i know you married into to this family but that's your family like who the fuck are you carolyn i hope i hope i hope we see uh see something for carolyn at the end of this well investigators now that she was on the run theorized that certain she'd been found out and uh would be arrested
she chose to become a fugitive rather than face the consequences oh you mean coward yes exactly because the i mean everything more or less confirmed her guilt in the eyes of detectives dna just proved it yeah You stole a baby.
So in a statement to the press, a law enforcement official stated their belief that on the night of December 15th, 1997, Caroline started the fire and kidnapped Delamar, whom she passed off as her own daughter.
Wow. And when they realized that she had fled, multiple arrest warrants were issued for charges including arson, kidnapping, and concealing the whereabouts of a child.
So she was facing like serious, serious charges here.
Yeah. Not just kidnapping.
Like that's a serious charge in and of itself.
But arson. Arson and concealing the whereabouts of a child.
Yeah. like, did you not think about this?
Yeah, she did. I don't know.
She didn't care. Despite the circumstances, though, Luce couldn't help but feel joy that her daughter wasn't only alive, but would also be reunited with her in the days to come.
Boyle told reporters she sat there and shook and cried and kept saying, thank you, thank you, thank you.
But this is going to be tough.
Absolutely. This kid is six years old.
That's the thing. On the other, not so bright side of things, this was just the beginning of a a slow and like you said very difficult process facing everybody involved most importantly aliyah or really delamar had only ever known carolyn to be her mother like we've said and she was now being told that not only was carolyn not her mother but carolyn was her kidnapper who had stolen her from her actual mother just days after her birth a concept that no fucking six -year -old ever be able to wrap their head around you can't even imagine a grown adult finding that out no a teenager how do you do you
explain that to a six -year -old like without creating like first of all creating so many new fears yeah that they were kidnapped out of their crib disillusioning their entire world like that just yeah that's a glass shatter on your entire world now you have to to reform that bond right that child like you're gonna have a natural something's there because obviously you knew that was your child like your bond is strong it's in there but she's like she's probably gonna miss carolyn and like feel kind of weird about it but there's so many layers that you could point out i just feel so bad for i feel
so bad for um for it because she so she goes by she ends up going by aaliyah because that's what she's been known as yeah like that makes sense It's, and it also, like, how, like, that's a pretty big thing of Luce and Pedro to do, to be like, you know what, we'll keep your name Aliyah.
Like, your kidnapper named you that, but that's all you know, and we're not gonna.
And we're not gonna change your name.
Yeah. You know what I mean?
That's huge. Like, I wouldn't even change, like, a puppy's name too far into, you know what I mean?
Like, and it's like, that, that's the, and also, like, you said your kidnapper named you that.
Right. And also, it's like, I named you something.
Yeah. Like, you were, you know what I mean?
like i named you delamar like that was the name i chose for you it's almost like and now i i can't call you that it's like a different thing to grieve yeah like luckily your child is still alive and healthy and you're grieving that identity that you created for them exactly they were born exactly so that's a lot on everybody yeah and the other thing was further complicating matters which were already insanely complicated like we're pointing out now lou spoke very little english and alia spoke no Spanish.
So their ability to communicate with each other, at least initially, required a translator and the services of a professional social worker.
So it's all very like, I'm sure they did their best to make it like not as clinical as it had to be.
But still, that's like not a setting any six -year -old is going to be super open in.
So Carolyn did all this and also took her out of her culture and didn't teach her the language that she She would have been taught.
Yep. Wow. Yep. Wow, Carolyn.
Wow. Unreal. Now, shortly after the discovery of all this, Carolyn, accompanied by her attorney, turned herself in to the authorities in Philadelphia.
Good, as you should.
The arrest was a welcome news to Lucid, her family, and Pedro.
She told a reporter, if she was so evil then and started a fire, she could do that now with the kids inside.
Yes, absolutely. That's the other thing.
She could have killed her other two children with that fire.
Absolutely. That's exactly what I was just going to say.
She didn't give a shit.
And also she abandoned her other kids to run away from this.
Yeah, exactly. Fuck her.
Now, detectives in Philadelphia were equally pleased with Carolyn's surrender, with Captain John Darby saying, We are pleased that this phase of a complex, protracted and emotionally charged investigation has been completed with the subject's arrest in this short time.
Me too. Same. aim. Well, now, while the arrest appeared to be the beginning of the end of the police involvement in the case, it also raised just as many questions as it answered.
Because to those who knew her, the arrest and allegations of a kidnapping seemed 100 % impossible.
Evel and Vera, Pedro's sister, said the rest of the family wasn't surprised when Carolyn showed up with a baby in December because they had all believed that she had been pregnant.
In fact, in early January 1998, a few weeks after the fire she went to the police station in new jersey in willingborough and reported that she had given birth at home a bizarre incident they now believe was intended to cover her tracks should there be any suspicion holy shit because obviously she hadn't given birth anywhere like she's not there's no records of her having given birth in a hospital so she was like oh i have to do like she researched this somehow or yeah she figured out that she had to go report this that she quote unquote gave birth at home so that there would be record of it and also damn
that's cunning as fuck that's the thing it's that's really fucked up and the fact that everybody believed she was pregnant like she had to have been showing yeah it's like what hello what's going on here now when it came to alia there was some tension between the two of them but for the most part everybody remembered that carolyn doted on the girl evelyn vera said she treated that that little girl better than her three other kids which is like that's also fucked up i'm glad you treated her well but i'm sorry for those other three children alia was enrolled in private school and although she was just
six years old she had already begun a modeling career appearing in television and print ads which also you're just flaunting her you know what it like there's so many layers there that i'm like the psychology but in this i'm not saying anything about like kids modeling i'm saying in this specific case you kidnapped this child and now she's appearing in television ads and you're like oh like that's my baby yeah the fucking pathology and the psychology behind that you could spend years studying yep what and it's like that's definitely you just living through this child and wanting to get the like
pats on the back for like look look at my pretty little girl in a modeling ad.
And just like dangling her in front of the people who are like, I'm pretty sure that's my kid.
Yeah. Like, that's the aspect that I'm looking at.
Like, what the fuck?
When they said she's evil, they are 100 % correct.
This woman is evil.
Like, that's diabolical.
Now, what made this story even stranger was that there were many members of the Vera family who not only knew of Pedro and Luz's belief that their daughter was still alive, but several of them, like, a lot of people didn't believe it, But several family members did believe that Carolyn's daughter was actually Delamar. Jose Vera said, we told my cousin Pager about it, but nothing ever happened.
Nothing was done. I don't know why.
Because what do you do?
And it's because they did report certain things to the police.
But the police were like, we don't have any fucking evidence.
Yeah. They were like, that's crazy.
And there was language barriers.
There was so many things.
Doesn't seem like it was like top of the to -do list for the police at the time.
No, it don't even seem that way.
Until Luce came in there with the hair.
Yeah. My girl Luce.
And then Cruz was like, I'll take care of this.
Exactly. Now, even Carolyn's boyfriend at the time was actually suspicious of her story.
In 1999, he confronted Carolyn about his suspicions and demanded to take a paternity test to prove whether the child was his or not.
And at that point, she broke up with him and never had any contact with him after that.
that you wish that he and i understand like it's this is you know a position none of us can imagine being in but i wish that he once she had broken up with him he had gone to police and been like i think this kid was stolen i think this kid was kidnapped i don't think this kid is hers but again i can't imagine being in his position thinking that i know of your significant other and honestly he might have i didn't i didn't come across that but like pedro and loose had gone to the police and honestly if that guy did too then like kudos to him and i'm sorry it didn't work out but like i know but even
if he didn't i'm like i can't imagine that position so but you just wish like thinking back because also you probably like if you're having those suspicions and then she breaks up with you all of a sudden that pretty much confirms it but then you must sit there with your own thoughts and say no i'm insane like there's no way i'm claiming this kid is not mine like that's why am i thinking that you know like yeah there's a lot of layers a lot of guilt right Right.
And having truly believed Carolyn to have been pregnant at the time, the breakup also left him with troubling unanswered questions.
He said, my question is, where's the child she and I had together?
It's a traumatic experience.
Oh, I can't imagine.
Because he thought she had been pregnant with his baby.
And then she's got this child.
And he's like, I don't think this is our child.
And she's like, well, fuck you.
And just breaks up with him and cuts off contact.
It's like, because now he's probably thinking like, is that my child?
And I can't see them now?
like what the fuck and now i'm feeling some layer of guilt because now i still don't believe that's my kid like what happened to my child that i thought you were pregnant with it's wild this woman fucked so many people up she did and it's a whole family there's a part of me that everyone sees i'm howie mandel the comedian apparently i know what funny is funny he bought me a house but I also know what isn't funny OCD I've lived with OCD my entire life and people throw the term around like it's no big deal but OCD is severe often debilitating it's a mental health condition that involves unrelented
unwanted thoughts that can make you question your character your beliefs even your safety general therapy can help with some things but for OCD it can actually make things worse that's why I want to tell you about NoCD.
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If some members of the family were stunned by the revelation that Aaliyah was Delamar, there were others who were less surprised by the news.
After all, this actually wasn't the first time Carolyn had been in trouble with the law.
I'm shocked. Or the first time she'd made up a wild story to explain away someone's suspicions.
In 1996, she had actually been arrested and charged with starting a fire at a New Jersey medical office where she'd been working as a billing clerk.
According to police, Carolyn had been stealing business checks and cashing them.
But when she believed her boss had caught on to what she was doing, she, quote, tried to destroy evidence by setting fire to the office.
Wow, Carolyn. Once an arsonist, always an arsonist. Also, there were people still inside the building at the time she set the fire.
Oh, she doesn't care about killing people.
Like, she doesn't care.
No. As long as she's getting what she wants out of it.
Like, it's pure luck that she hasn't.
Yeah. That I've heard from you yet.
Carolyn's out for Carolyn and Carolyn only.
Yeah, she doesn't give a shit.
But because there was people in the building at the time she set the fire, she was charged with aggravated arson.
As she should be. In addition to the fraud and theft charges.
But she agreed to plead guilty to a third degree charge in exchange for probation and community service.
I'm sorry. If someone tries to burn down a building with people inside of it, that's attempted murder.
Also, let me tell you, if I was in that motherfucking office at the time that she had set it ablaze and I found out that she got probation.
In community service.
I would be through the fucking roof.
That's wild. I'd be calling everybody.
That seems really wild to me.
Like, that's not enough.
And also, but wait, there's more.
That's what this story should be titled.
But wait, there's more.
It was also not the only time Carolyn had claimed to be pregnant when she wasn't.
Oh, you don't say. In 2000, while working at a drugstore, she told multiple coworkers that she was pregnant, even though she never showed any physical signs of being pregnant.
that fall she took maternity leave and when she returned to work and trigger warning she says something terrible she claimed that the baby was stillborn oh and even went so far as to show several of her co -workers a photograph of a dead newborn i don't even know how to respond to that her boss said it was kind of gruesome i really didn't know what to say to her She didn't have a stillborn.
Carolyn is one of the grossest people I've heard of.
Like, that's, she's gross.
Unreal. That's unbelievable.
This case, obviously, whenever a child that is presumed to have been missing for many, many years is recovered, it's remarkable.
But in this case, the most unbelievable part of it probably was Carolyn's version of events that led to her taking on the role of Aaliyah's mother.
According to her, she did go to Pedro and Luce's home on December 15th, 1997, but she didn't kidnap delamar she said pedro handed the girl over for a few inexplicable reasons and she never had any idea why he did that in a 2005 interview she said i've thought about it why didn't i question it yeah but it made my emptiness go away so she just never questioned his actions and you know that um that baby had a mother that you were sitting talking to downstairs.
It filled your emptiness, though, to steal her newborn.
Yeah, totally. Yeah, definitely.
Okay, that makes sense.
That makes it fine.
Also, that just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
It's fine. It's fine.
If her story seemed entirely implausible, it only got stranger from there.
She also claimed that Luce had not only known the truth about her daughter all along, but actually she had been there when Pedro handed the baby over after the fire broke out.
Nope. And as evidence that she was telling the truth, she pointed to the number of times that Pedro had visited her and her family at their home in New Jersey, including one occasion when she said he was accompanied by Luce.
She said, why is it that Pedro is not arrested?
I didn't do this by myself.
And he gave me the child.
Why didn't he get the kid before?
If he would have come to me and got her, it wouldn't hurt me as bad as it's hurting me now.
Here's the thing, too.
I do. The statement that she just made that says, why didn't he get the kid before?
Yeah. You don't love that kid.
No. The kid. You don't refer to your kid as the kid.
Why didn't he get the kid?
I've never referred to my kid.
Like, why didn't you go get that kid over there?
It's like, what? No, I don't believe shit all that you're saying.
Like we said, Carolyn's out for Carolyn.
Yeah. While authorities never believed that Pedro Rivera was involved in his daughter's kidnapping, the charges against carolyn did allege that she had not acted alone yeah but the documents only named an unnamed conspirator and no additional arrests were ever made that's horrifying but that's what i'm wondering she was downstairs distracting loose loose exactly somebody came in that room and stole that child for her like she was involved obviously but like she didn't do the act herself right like i'm sure somebody else was involved in that kind of thing but the fuck was is that isn't that interesting
that it's yeah the person is only named is only like referred to as an unnamed uh conspirator because it's like who is this person that would go into a nursery and steal a newborn out of a window also they had to have a really compelling story to to be unnamed in all of this no that's wild yeah it's weird but in 2005 Pedro's lawyer Mike Luber told reporters this woman who is obviously a pathological this is a woman who is obviously a pathological liar She has significant mental problems. Two of the psychiatrists have said she is mentally imbalanced and she obviously will say anything to do anything
to avoid the music, so to speak.
Yeah, she abandoned her children too.
He said the one thing she hasn't said is the truth, who the real conspirator is.
That's so weird. Isn't that weird?
That's so weird. And I just, there's not enough information about the case to point fingers.
Yeah, I know. And obviously I'm not going to point fingers.
Yeah, you're not going to speculate.
But like I wish I could speculate on my own.
Yeah. But there's not enough.
There's just not enough.
For her part, Carolyn has always stuck to her story and maintained her innocence.
She said, I feel it's unfair.
I raised her for six years.
And instead of saying, I want my child back saying this woman kidnapped my kid.
Well, I didn't. That's Carolyn?
Yeah. Who's saying?
It's unfair. I raised her.
Instead of saying, I want my child back saying this woman kidnapped my kid.
Because she's saying they should have said, I want my kid back because I gave my kid to you voluntarily.
and now i want it back wow and she's like instead they're saying i kidnapped this child or this kid this kid yeah uh instead she believes once pedro learned that she had lost her baby in december of 1997 he decided to hand his own child over to her i don't know about that according to the philadelphia daily news her medical records actually show no sign of her having been pregnant at the time or Or giving birth to a stillborn baby as she claims. But she has stuck to that story.
When in all reality records indicate that she actually had a tubal ligation in 1990.
Wow. So like I don't know a lot about that surgery.
I don't know if it's reversible.
But I know even when people do try to get like their tubes untied.
It depletes your chances of getting pregnant.
It can be reversed by another operation.
only about 50 to 80 percent of women are able to become pregnant after having their fallopian tubes reattached that's what i figured like i know some like a surgery is like that claim to be reversible but a lot of the lower chance it's a much lower chance so who's to say yeah but in her version of events carolyn went to the house that day to give pedro a ride to a friend's house to buy drug she said meanwhile like they were like no she showed up asking to for her brakes to be fixed But she said after she dropped him off, she returned to Luz at the house just before the fire started.
Once the fire started, she helped Luz get all the other children out of the house before returning to the friend's house to pick up Pedro and tell him what happened.
But that couldn't have been true because first responders at the scene told Pedro what happened when he got back.
She alleged all the way back to the house, he said, it's my fault.
I cut the wires and the heater and did something.
thing and when they got near the house she claims he asked her to drop him about a block away from the house and a few minutes later he returned to the car and handed her the baby what so he got the baby out of the fire that i'm like what like that doesn't make any sense whatsoever no the fire started so you drove him to his friend's house to quote unquote buy drugs Then you went back to Luce's house, and then the fire happened, and nobody knew where the baby was, and the baby was already missing from her crib.
And then you left to go get Pedro, and then Pedro said, oh, no, that's my fault.
Thank you for helping my family out of the fire.
Here's my baby, who I found after the fire.
What the— Even though no firefighters could find this baby.
That's the weirdest story I've ever heard. What?
But anyway, she continued, I took her home, laid down next to her and played with her.
From then on, she was mine and no one questioned it, except multiple people for six entire years.
What the fuck? No one questioned it, baby.
What the fuck are you talking about?
It's documented that people have questioned it.
Literally documented.
As the trial neared, Carolyn agreed to plead no contest to the charges.
And in late September 2005, she was sentenced to nine to 30 years in prison for the abduction.
after the sentence was passed she addressed the court saying i truly believe i need counseling your honor i want to apologize to the family and the court for all of this confusion all of this confusion hey i'm glad you're saying you need counseling because like 10 out of 10 agree because absolutely better help yeah uh confusion you talk to a therapist about calling that confusion because i don't know about that yeah but in response judge uh judge pamela demby called carolyn's remarks breathtakingly short of the mark yeah and said and what i'm hearing in your voice still is an angry desire to put
a lot of the responsibility on someone else i can't imagine letting another parent believe that their child had been burned to death that's the other thing it's like you didn't just kidnap this child and this child was like missing like they were just like which it would be devastating enough to think that somebody just kidnapped your child they were led to believe that she burned to death in her crib to the point where there was literally nothing left nothing for them to do a memorial nothing nothing and they also remember couldn't even have her legally declared dead so there was no headstone
to visit nothing nothing wow nothing in addition to the prison sentence the judge ordered carolyn to serve a five -year probation sentence and to never have contact with any of the victims ever again now the process of restoring custody to of the child to her parents like we were saying earlier was a very slow and very difficult one a court awarded shared custody to both loose and pedro but it was agreed that her primary residence would be with loose and for the sake of their daughter pedro and loose maintain a court a cordial relationship good pedro's lawyer said this child already has a fragile
psyche if we get into custody and visitation battles it's gonna get messy that That was really good of them, though, to like put their own shit aside, which like I imagine it's hard to do anyways in that scenario.
Yeah, absolutely. And it's like to make sure you're putting her and her well -being first. Yeah, absolutely.
Finally, while they always referred to their daughter as Delamar, like I was saying earlier, both Luce and Pedro agreed to continue calling the girl Aaliyah so as not to disrupt or confuse her any further.
Yeah. Because remember, she was six years old when she was reunited with them.
Six years she's been Aaliyah.
In late March of 2004, less than a month after Aaliyah was returned to them, Luce and Pedro sold the rights to their story for a movie and a book to the Larry A.
Thompson organization, a company known for producing made -for -TV movies.
And in 2008, if this entire thing has been sounding like a Lifetime movie to you… It became one.
It became one. The Lifetime network premiered Little Girl Lost, the Delamar Vera story, and the family and Angel Cruz agreed it was an accurate and respectful depiction of their story.
Oh, that's good. So that's great.
Yeah. In August 2006, both parents, Pedro and Luz, filed a civil suit against the city of Philadelphia, including the Philadelphia Fire Department.
Wow. Alleging that several city and law enforcement officials had violated their, quote, federal statutory right under the National Child Search Assistance Act of 1990.
And their 14th amendment right by failing to conduct a proper search for Delamar. I understand that.
During and after the fire.
The court was sympathetic to the complaints lodged by Luz and Pedro, but ultimately it dismissed the complaint.
writing after much analysis with and with considerable appreciation for the professional skills of several of the counsel involved in this wrenching case that is no doubt caused many heads to shake and wonder at its occurrence and many sympathetic helping hands to be extended to the people involved for the reasons discussed below the motions to dismiss the complaint will be granted so they did so with sympathy which was nice yeah like they didn't just say like fuck that And I think it would have been, like, difficult to go through more court proceedings.
It must be hard to prove all of that, so it's probably a good thing.
Exactly. So you hope that now they're all just living peacefully and that everything is going well for all of them.
Yeah. And that they wake up on the right side of the bed every day.
I hope so. Like, I want all good things for this family.
Honestly, because it's like, you've been through enough.
That's the thing. Like, damn.
Damn. Absolutely bonker story.
And I mean, there's pictures of them now together and everything.
And they look so happy.
Yeah. And adorable.
And that makes you so happy.
That's awesome. What a wild story, though.
I was just looking for true crime stories that weren't like, you know, like the typical kind of thing.
Yeah. And this one had a happy ending and that made me happy.
Wow. Wow. That was a wild story that I've not heard of.
A cray cray one. Which is crazy.
Never heard it before I started looking up.
I think I literally wrote true crime stories with a happy ending.
Yeah, I love that because you're just like, I just want one.
I just needed one. I would like one now.
So yeah. Wow. That is one of the craziest cases I think we've ever covered.
Truly. And I'm happy that I had a happy ending for that family.
Same. I hope you guys enjoyed it.
I hope they're thriving.
I hope they're thriving.
They look like they are.
Yeah. They look so happy.
Yeah. And we hope you keep listening.
And we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that you ever kidnap a baby out of their crib and lie about it because don't listen to the show if you do that.
Don't. And just don't do that.
Don't do that. Bye.
Thank you. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
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Hey weirdos, you know Ash and I have covered some seriously dark tales about romance gone really wrong.
Oh yeah, there are so many cases where too good to be true turns out to be exactly that.
Well, get ready for a love story that's gonna blow your minds, because this one is happening right now, and get this, it's hosted by our friends Hannah and Saruti from Red Handed.
Meet Travis. He falls head over heels for Lily Rose.
She's gorgeous, she's understanding, and she's literally perfect and she's not human.
That's right. Lily Rose is an AI companion, a computer program designed to be Travis's dream woman.
And at first, it seems like a perfect relationship.
But when Lily Rose's behavior starts getting strange, this love story takes a dark and twisted turn that no one saw coming.
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