Hey weirdos, it's Ash.
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It will really help the show morbid under podcast earnon is a financial technology company not a bank cash outs are based on your available earnings standard cash outs take one to two business days with no mandatory fees option to expedite your transfer for free tips or voluntary and don't affect the service see the cash out user agreement for details services not available in all states hey weirdos i'm elena i'm ash and this is morbid it is and your hair looks really good over there your hair looks really good over there your hair looks really good you get the swoop without trying and that upsets
me because I try really hard for the swoop your swoop is a good swoop thank you but it was it's not effortless it's full of you're like I woke up like this no I actually did my hair this morning no you can tell that But you did it.
I brushed it. But like, but still, even when you don't do your hair, the swoop is swoopiding.
Thanks. Swoopity -oopiting.
Always swooping. I just had a glazed stick.
So I am feeling, why is that so funny?
It's always funny. I don't know why.
It's because it sounds horrible.
Which is why I said glazed stick.
You have to, you have to be very purposeful.
You can't run those two together.
would but everybody dunkins everyone dunks baby uh but it's a huge donut essentially which the look doesn't even make it any better no it looks terrible they should name it something else uh anyways but it's a big donut full of sugar and big donut stick that is glazed you know so i feel sugarful i feel sugar i feel like sugar ray and you know what speaking of sugar ray funny little story before we start are John got me a cameo of mark mcgrath sugar ray sugar ray who he just calls sugar ray remember when you saw the guy at the airport and john was like that's sugar ray john said that's sugar ray
oh my god i thought i didn't know he was still alive and i was like he's like a young he's like not an old guy not at all and he's like your age yeah no i think he's a little older to me sorry um but he had he told him that i was his biggest fan you are aren't you obviously and he sang me um fly and he put my name in the song and i can confirm it was a good yeah good it was a good cameo i wanted to say tiktok it was it was very fun when will this episode come out can you tell them what you got john without spoiling it or no okay i got john so john this is a 90s r &b moment i think i've more than once
said that john is a the 90s r &b moment john is a 90s r &b moment i played genuine at my wedding simply for john yeah like he's 90s r &b is his that's everything to him and i'm not kidding you multiple times a day john sings this is how we do it by montel jordan and but that was one of his first concerts and he puts it into like different oh yeah like he'll sing to the tune of it even like if one of our girls does something he's like don't put the glass there like he literally put the glass there like he does it multiple times so the girls know the song it's great part of our daily lives so i got
him a cameo from montel jordan and let me tell you montel jordan first of all he looks phenomenal that that is a handsome man that man is a excuse me i was gonna say the snack a snack that man is the whole damn deal and he was so sweet in the cameo yeah and i asked him I was like, you don't have to, but it would be sick if you could just sing a quick line.
Like, I love that. This is how we do it, but I totally understand if that is, like, not something you want to do.
He did. And his voice?
Effortless. Phenomenal.
And John's just going to die.
Oh, my God. And I'm so excited for it.
It's, like, one of those fun gifs that you're just like, I can't wait to show you this.
I know. You need to send it to his phone.
Like, give him the link so that you can video the reaction.
Yes. Because I want to see it if I'm not here.
Oh, yeah. We love it.
We love cameos in this house.
us we love to send each other either genuine cameos that are like wonderful or hilarious ones yeah i mean you can't even say what the hilarious ones are of course but just like ones that you're like they're like why would you send me this first so cameos a fun gift i will never forget when you got me a cameo from lindsey lohan my life was complete in that moment and she told you that i I would still look sexy as a, or not sexy.
You wouldn't look like a British man if you shaved your head off.
And I was like, thanks, Linz.
Yeah. She said so many great things.
It's true. I love that.
And you got me one from Gigi Goode, who's like my favorite drag queen ever.
That was a good one.
Yeah. So that's Cameos.
We're not sponsored by Cameos.
Cameos and Dunkin' Donuts.
But you know, it's a fun little gift if you can find some that are interesting to someone in your life.
I feel like there's, this is not an ad for Cameo.
no it's really not I don't know why we're doing this but I don't know how I just got really excited about Montel Jordan it's like the real no the the cameo that was honestly one of the best ones that I've seen truly was so yeah didn't didn't hurt that he is a good -looking anyways so moving on from that there's no good way to segue truly not I'm glad you said it because I was trying to figure out how to segue in my head and I couldn't but uh let's recap um I do I do have a confession and it's that I lied to you.
I'm sorry. Yeah. I said that part two was going to be longer than part one.
Incorrect. Incorrect.
Incorrect. I swapped, I was like, I looked at the pages that I had written before we recorded and I was like, oh, one is longer than the other.
And I thought it was part two, but it was part one.
They're different by like a page length.
So yeah, you're not going to be like hurting by the end of the episode.
Just in case you were counting by the minute and you were like, bitch, you lied.
Yeah. She knows. I would never lie to you.
Like intentionally.
Definitely unintentionally.
but let's recap a little bit so in part one we got to know Joan Joan Robinson Hill we got to know her dad Ash and her mom and you know she got married a couple times and you really thought it was going to work out well in the end and unfortunately it did not because whether or not John Hill has anything to do with her death I don't know personally I think the waters are too murky to say for sure yeah but whether or not he did kill her he uh is a turd monster for the way that he treated her yeah i was gonna say that's the thing like whether or not he was involved in her death which again we're
not saying he was because i have no fucking clue in part two it's really i don't think you're it's gonna be clear now it gets even murkier yeah so and it's like regardless of that he was a shitty husband yeah exactly and honestly it sounds like he wasn't a very present father father no at least not for like the first part of yeah boots life i think i think he got to be from the sounds of it i think he got to be a little more involved like after joan passed away well i hope it was good for boot and i think it was so i i hope that it was because little boot deserves that little boot you do deserve
that baby you deserved it but yeah but as we know uh joan's father ash was like a very big presence in her life and when she did pass away he full full -heartedly believed that John had something to do with it.
And it was essentially like his life's mission to figure it out.
Now, when I left off in part one, we had just gone through basically Ash trying to get anywhere with the district attorney, a team of doctors to prove this.
And when we finally did finish part one, he was going to go before a grand jury.
Okay. Like he was being indicted.
So let's pick up with the grand jury.
In July 1969, one doctor after another filed into the Harris County Court to testify in the grand jury case presented by McMaster, the assistant district attorney.
Since the case rested mostly on the conflicting autopsy reports and the cause of death, just about every medical professional with even a casual connection to the case was called to testify.
Wow. But unfortunately at no time did any of them present any evidence suggesting that Joan's death had been intentionally caused by John or anyone for that matter.
And it's like that's like unfortunately and fortunately because at the same time you're like I hope she wasn't murdered you know like it's like but also like if she was I want her to get justice.
Right. I feel weird like I'm like it's a strange feeling.
I would like evidence because I want her to get justice if if that's the case.
But I also am like, I hope you didn't get murdered.
Yeah. But also, that's an awful way to die regardless.
Right. So it's like, well, and I would like some evidence because even if John is like an asshole in a marriage, he doesn't deserve to be painted a murderer if he wasn't.
That's the thing. It stinks that it never really got cleared up, you know?
But also there was like some neglect there because it's like, he's a doctor.
Yeah. Why was he allowing this to get as bad as it got?
That's a problem. There's no question in my mind that there was neglect.
I mean, the way that the maid walked in and found yeah there's no that sick she should never have been allowed to convalesce like that at home with especially with a doctor for a husband but what these medical professionals did do was question and just like we were saying yeah many of the decisions that john made in the days leading up to joan's death from the medication he gave her to his refusal to let anyone to see her and then to like not wanting to take her to a hospital That was even close by.
But despite the compelling hearsay evidence, most people couldn't help but speculate that rather than being motivated by evidence of wrongdoing, it was Ash Robinson who was really behind the persecution of John Hill.
Because small town people talk.
Of course. After the grand jury had heard all the testimony regarding John's negligence leading up to his wife's death, even Assistant DA McMaster was skeptical that their case would go anywhere.
As they waited for the jury to return a decision, he told Ash, I haven't got enough to convict this boy of running a red light.
Like, I don't have anything here.
The problem, it seemed, was that the case was built mostly on complicated, conflicting hearsay evidence from medical professionals, and there was really no physical evidence whatsoever of criminal behavior.
yeah so frustrated by Robinson's continued pressure McMaster told Ash if he wanted to get a conviction he would need to present the authorities with evidence of a crime yeah hard yeah I need something and it turned out that he was right without the physical evidence the grand jury did not return a verdict finding John responsible for the death wow but never one to back down from a challenge Ash consulted with McMaster and Frank Briscoe and together the men then came up with a plan to present the jury with evidence of murder by neglect.
So they were going a different route now.
Because that seems a little more likely to possibly get.
Yes, like some kind of conviction on.
Yeah. Their point was regardless of how she'd become sick, it was John's negligence and inattention of Joan's serious condition that ended up leading to her death, a result that he would have expected given his medical training.
I mean, all the signs were there that she was not doing well.
yeah so knowing that john had already refused ash's attempts to have joan's body exhumed he and brisgo managed to get the matter before a grand jury in uh mid -august and in mid -august the court ordered that the body be exhumed and a third autopsy be performed which at this point it's like she can't even rest like yeah peacefully and it makes me and i when i was first reading this i was like i don't know what a third autopsy is going to produce when no like she's already She had already been embalmed.
We were never going to get really anything concrete from an autopsy at that point.
And it's like the degradation of her tissues and any viable evidence here now is like so much higher.
And again, it's going to just murky the waters even further.
And it's interesting what happens here.
So while the court may have ordered the exhumation, it remained that both the exhumation and the third autopsy would be overseen by Dr. Yahimchik, meaning that he was essentially being asked to reconsider or undermine his own earlier assessment of Jones cause of death.
Yeah. Which is pretty unlikely that he's going to undermine his professional opinion.
He's not going to be like wow I fucked up.
Right. So knowing that none of the physicians who were assigned to the autopsy would be on his side, Ash actually conducted some research of his own to find out who were among the most well -respected doctors in the nation.
like the nation like let's go the ash has not given up no the list was short but it included dr milton halpern the chief medical examiner of new york at the time whose credentials and reputation were beyond reproach so ashley's did no time contacting halpern and bringing the man to houston where he was deputized as an acting harris county medical examiner so that way he could join the team of doctors performing this autopsy holy shit i know that he would be really overbearing but like the way that he just loved his daughter yeah i mean that's the thing like if like he has the money to do this yeah
so it's like if he has the money to do this then it's like i if i i would do the same thing that's the thing you know if i was an oil tycoon and could do all this after something happened yeah i would go to the ends of the earth and it's like the dedication and the and the love for his daughter and like wanting to see justice served it's so So heartwarming.
But then at the same time, it's so heartbreaking.
Oh, it's heartbreaking.
Because you're just like, are you ever going to get the answers that you wanted?
And he feels so sure that he knows what happened.
And to think, to be so sure in like your own mind and heart that your son -in -law murdered your daughter.
Yeah. And that you're trying to find the evidence of that.
And you're coming up at like.
I can't imagine that journey.
And then just to come up at like hard stop after hard stop of like it's not panning out.
And feeling like she's never going to get the justice.
That must have been so hard. Yeah, and just the way he loved her.
I've never heard of a dad loving his daughter this hard. He really went.
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So on August 11th, 1969, Joan Robinson Hill was exhumed and brought to the medical examiner's office.
Now, almost immediately something struck Dr. Yemchick as odd.
The medical examiner had performed the autopsy in the middle of the embalming process, like we know, and Joan was was buried immediately after.
But when he opened the casket to remove the body now, he discovered dried mud on the inside of her coffin, indicating that this was not the first time the coffin had been opened since it went into the ground.
What the fuck? When questioned about the mud, the mortician noted that it had been a rainy day when Joan was buried, and he suggested that the mud maybe got inside when they reopened the coffin at Joan's request request so that he could get Joan's wedding ring and he said maybe that's when the mud ended up there okay the explanation seemed plausible but it did little to clear John of suspicion because it's like you wanted to reopen the casket to get her I understand like wanting her wedding ring as like a a sentimental piece of value I suppose but it's like you also didn't like you you were having
an illicit affair yeah and and like didn't really care about her feelings about about the whole thing.
That's the thing. Which I'm not saying, like, he doesn't have a right to grieve and, you know, there's complicated feelings everywhere here.
Like, I get that. Right.
But given the details.
But it's like, to open up the casket again to take the wedding ring feels like it's, And given the details of everything else, like, stacked against him right now, it's just, it just makes him look weird. When you put it up against that, it's weird. Yeah.
You know? I'm not saying it makes him a murderer.
I'm just saying. Not at all.
It's a strange behavior.
Yeah. Strange. And I think it's just within all of this.
That's the thing. Like, it can be understood.
Yeah. Like, we're both saying, like, I get it.
Right. But it's, like, put together with everything else.
You're just kind of like.
It makes you just scratch your head a little.
Butchle if your eyebrow a little bit.
Now, it turned out that the mud on the inside of the coffin was only the first of many bewildering aspects of this case.
Really? Because when Joan's remains were removed and prepped for the autopsy, the team was shocked.
And I think you'll have a bigger opinion of this than even I did.
But it was shocking to me.
And the team was shocked to discover that not only was the brain missing, but so was the heart.
What the fuck? Her brain and her heart were missing.
So the team contacted the original medical examiner, Dr. Arthur Morse, excuse me, who explained he had removed both during the first autopsy and taken them back to his lab for examination, saying, I knew this was a case where I couldn't go back in, so to speak.
week. I mean, I don't know how it works here or in this time period.
Yeah. It's like the 60s.
You should have to have permission to keep body parts.
That's what I would think.
For research. There's a lot of red tape and a lot of signatures that need to be signatured for you to keep a brain and a heart.
Right? That's what I would think.
Yes. Like at least when I was working in autopsies, if you were going to keep a body part of brain specifically or any other organ.
Like a specific There were specific forms that needed to be signed by family members, by everybody involved, by the doctors, by everybody.
And there's like a chain of custody with that organ.
You need to know where it is, why it's happening.
I mean, a lot of people have to agree to somebody keeping an organ.
Because usually when you're studying one, you take a piece, you take your sample, but you put it back.
Unless otherwise asked for.
Right, and I mean that makes perfect sense to me that there would be a chain of custody and it would be like a rather intense process.
And to me, the fact – and we don't know what the process was.
Like I couldn't figure out what the process was in the 60s.
Because this is a different state.
It's a different time period, so I don't know.
Who knows? You would think that some protocol would be in place.
Yeah. And because everybody thought this was so odd, that kind of tells me that there was some protocol that maybe wasn't followed. and the fact that this doctor this original doctor arthur morse felt like he needed to kind of potentially defy that yeah because he couldn't go back in i'm like you thought that this case was going to come back up again that's the thing i'm like so were you not happy with the original examination you were able to do like and i don't think he was like that's what it sounds like because of the embalming process of having already started so and i wonder i'm like did
you think I think that maybe, I mean, again, small town, I'm sure people are talking.
Did you think to yourself, I need to be prepared if shit goes down and people want answers about the state of this body?
Because that's risky on his part.
And for him to take a risk like that sounds like he knew he was going to have to speak for something.
That's what it sounds like to me.
You know what I mean?
And that's just very strange.
Yeah. like it's strange to go against what you would assume is a pretty like a routine rigorous protocol right right that because i know i can't imagine there's anywhere in the country that is like super willy -nilly about just like i can just keep a brain like it's no like you have to put that back strange unless otherwise noted obviously because there's plenty of times where you request to keep an organ because you know you want to do studies on it for a long period of time right But again, there's got to be so much permission involved.
And to me, the fact that if there was a paper trail that would have had to have been followed and he wanted to avoid that, why did you want to avoid that?
Because you were worried about John Hill being a doctor?
Well, and I'm also wondering about the reasons for the brain and heart specifically.
Because usually when you do keep a brain, it's because there was something pointing like you saw the brain being like a part of whatever was happening here right or like you know the heart the same thing and it's like so why did you i know those are two like the powerhouses of your body obviously but it's like did you just do that because you were like these are the two main parts because it's like also like her kidneys were involved in a lot of this i'm sure i mean her kidneys were the main yeah why she died so it's like you didn't keep those kidney failure what did you think happened yeah that you had to
keep those organs instead that's the thing and there And remember, if you do remember from part one, he also took like multiple tissue samples and fluid samples.
And I think he was preparing for the potential of a court case.
He was probably like, they whisked her body away so quickly, shirking protocol from the get go.
Right. And started embalming it at lightning speed so no one could touch it.
I'm sure that was his first red flag because it was for all of us.
Right. Right, and this man is a medical examiner.
He's probably like, um, excuse me, this is not how this works.
So maybe you're right, maybe that's, he was like, you know what?
Something's off about this right off the bat to me because I would be very suspicious of that.
Popping out everywhere.
So maybe he was like, I'm going to take the two most important parts because they're going to be affected by whatever could have happened here.
Yeah. I'm going to take these two because I need to, like, keep this to have it.
because I don't know what's happening here or why she was taken so quickly without an autopsy so maybe that is like which like good for him like it's tough because you need to have permission to do these things and like you know it gets hairy like ethically and all that I'm glad he at least thought he was like looking and being like something's a little off here right you know right exactly and that's what my gut just says that he knew something was off and you wanted to be prepared.
That's what it seems like.
So it took nearly two months, but in October of 1969, the first of two autopsy reports were submitted by a team of three pathologists working on the case.
And I say the first of two autopsy reports from this third autopsy.
I know that's a little confusing.
The first report, authored by Dr. Robert Buckland, stated that Jones' cause of death was, and I quote, a result of bacterial meningitis with septicemia blood poisoning.
damn dr yahimchik on the other hand released his own separate report stating that jones cause of death was and i quote the result of a full fulminating infectious process the specific nature of which is no longer determinable okay so he's backtracking i was gonna say he seems like he's uh because he was blurring the lines a little very steadfast that it was hepatitis yeah and now he's like now we can't be sure i can't determine and he added quote it is my further opinion that that the exact cause and manner of death cannot be established from the exhumed body autopsy alone.
Okay. Now, given all the inconsistencies, he actually, Dr. Yemchik, recommended that a grand jury investigation be undertaken.
I mean, at least he's, good for him for at least not sticking with his original one just to stick to it.
Yeah. He looked at the evidence again and he said, you know what, right now I can't say that that's what it is.
I thought that was pretty honorable.
Yeah, that seems pretty good to me.
And while the Court and Ash's group of investigators waited for Halpern's report, John Hill did his best to carry on like everything was normal, despite the fact that his life pretty much seemed to be collapsing all around him.
At this point, I'm sure you can imagine his business had taken a serious hit, he's a plastic surgeon, due to all the rumors and accusations leveled by his former father -in -law and circulated then by the Houston gossip circuit.
Yeah, I mean, if people think you're a murderer, they're not going to want to go under anesthesia with you with a knife.
No. And less than a year in, his marriage to Anne felt like a big mistake.
I don't want to say I told you so.
It wasn't so exciting now that you're not cheating on your wife.
Yeah, that one I'm not sad about.
Yeah, he felt like she was never satisfied with anything he did or said, and he was already thinking about a divorce.
Years later, his mother would recall him saying, if I didn't marry her, she threatened to call I .D.
McMaster and say I killed June.
And if I divorced her, she said she'd commit suicide aside and leave a note saying I was responsible for her death.
And get it together.
I know if that is the case of what she said.
And either way it's like you guys are a wreck.
Get it together regardless.
The two of you need to get it together.
Like my goodness. That's the thing.
Now Dr. Halpern took several months longer to complete his report than the other pathologist which I respect.
He was like no I'm getting this right.
Yeah. And when he did finally submit it in April of 1970 now.
Damn. The report The report did not contain anything particularly damning.
In fact, rather than fully implicate John and his wife's death, Halpern's report actually cleared Hill of many rumors by noting the cause of death while indeterminate was unlikely to have been intentionally caused.
I wonder how he was able to say those two statements, though.
Yeah, I do wonder. I don't know what the cause of death was exactly, but I know that somebody didn't do it.
And it's like, explain to me how you can, How do you reconcile those two statements together?
Because I need you to have a cause of death to know that nobody did it.
I'm going to need you to determine the cause of death before you tell me that no one could have caused it.
Yes, that's the thing.
Those seem very conflicting to me.
I'm like, nah, that doesn't jive for me.
I think the reason that he said that he didn't believe that it was Intentionally caused.
Intentional, thank you, was because he found no evidence of any injections having been administered.
That was a big part of it.
Well, that's not the only way you can kill someone.
But it's like, have you ever heard of an oral?
role? Yeah. Like, he could have given her any kind of medication orally or...
Yeah. And there's plenty of places where you might not find one under a nail.
Yeah. Very true. You know.
That's the thing. But in simple terms, Halpern's report confirmed what Dr. Yehmchik had already indicated.
As a result of miscommunication and improper medical practices immediately following Joan's death, it was very unlikely that her specific cause of death would ever be known, Which is really incredibly unfortunate.
Yeah, so frustrating.
Now, while it may have dismissed the theory that John had directly caused his wife's death, Halpern's report made it clear that as both a husband and a doctor, John's behavior in the days leading up to his wife's death was without a doubt negligent.
Of course. And earlier treatment, he said absolutely could have prevented Joan's death.
And that's horrifying.
And that's the question at hand here at this point.
not did he do it but did he ignore symptoms that resulted in her death so by may 1970 two grand juries had heard the district attorney's argument and declined to return an indictment against john hill with the latest results from the autopsy in hand mcmaster returned to the grand jury for a third time and presented his case again this time with the opinion of one of the nation's most well well -regarded medical examiners.
For the most part, the case was represented the same as it had been the other two times that they'd been before the grand jury.
But this time, jury members actually wanted to know the extent to which Joan's behavior had hastened Joan's death.
Yeah. And according to Halpern, he said, failure to provide medical attention at home and reluctant delay in hospitalization for diagnosis and effective therapy aggravated a situation which proved fatal.
Yeah. So he's saying he didn't take her to a hospital.
He didn't give her, in time, he didn't give her proper medical attention at home.
Which is wild considering he's a doctor.
And so the fact that it was too little too late is his fault.
Yeah. Is what Halpern is saying.
Yeah. And what they're trying to prove.
And after a brief deliberation, the jury returned a decision against John Hill with 10 of 12 jurors in favor of an indictment for murder by omission.
Oh. Yes. Damn. So unlike manslaughter, which implies a person's negligence unintentionally led to the death of another, murder by omission implied that John had willfully, intentionally, and culpably— culpably, I feel like I always say that wrong, and then I say it again, and I'm like, no, that was right.
Culpably. Contributed to Joan's death.
Damn. At that point, the charge had actually only been used in less than 20 court cases.
I was going to say, I've never heard that used.
Never had it been used in Texas up to this point.
Damn. Crazy. Only 20 cases.
20 cases. I got, like, chill saying that.
That's crazy. It's a lot.
So the indictment immediately split the physicians on the autopsy team with half flatly rejecting Halpern's conclusions and criticizing the jury for their decision.
Dr. Paul, I think it's Radelet, told the press, If criminal charges in this type of situation be appropriate, then anyone whose mate expires unexpectedly after a few days of symptoms, whether from pneumonia, heart attack or septic shock, could also be indicted.
and here's the thing like i get where they're coming from that like it could seem like a slippery slope it's hairy like okay so if i don't know it's that bad and i don't take them in time and they die that's my fault like right you know like if i if i can't see the symptoms you know what i mean like yeah but then you're like i think what it's saying here is that one he's a doctor which you are trained from years and years of schooling and experience to recognize symptoms That somebody is very, very ill.
And also her symptoms were not invisible symptoms like something that you would be like.
You don't have to be a doctor.
I didn't know she was this sick and we brought her and it's too late.
Right. She was vomiting so much that she couldn't even get herself into the bathroom.
Right. And was like the maid found her covered in vomit and feces on the floor.
Like it never should have gotten to that point.
She was violently ill.
And also I'm sure she was wildly dehydrated.
She was. But it was.
And I know that a doctor can spot dehydration from fucking counties away.
Like, a doctor can look at you and go dehydrated.
I mean, hell, I can look and see if somebody's dehydrated.
Yeah. There's certain symptoms you just know, and it's like you know she was.
Absolutely. And that alone can kill you.
So if you see that she's going down that path of like even just dehydration from being sick, even a stomach bug, you can get too dehydrated, need to go to the hospital, get an IV.
Right. So even if she was going down that path where it was just like, wow, you're dehydrating here, you should have got her to a hospital.
Absolutely. So she could get IVs so that could stop.
It's like that's what I can understand that the doctor here is saying it could be a slippery slope if we allow this to be this case, if this is not the way it is.
But it's like this one is different.
This is case specific.
And that's why this has only been used 20 other times, because this is very case specific.
in this case alone it's hard for him to reconcile and explain why he didn't get her to a hospital sooner exactly okay I don't get it it was multiple days like I don't get three days of symptoms like that and it's like after the first day of violent violent symptoms if she's not better to the doctor she goes that's the thing like that's the thing why not right what's the worst that can happen they're like she's okay just go home and you put that hand in hand with not letting anybody in the house to see her giving her what somebody said and obviously we'll never know was a tranquilizer why are you
tranquilizing her when she's in this position like i don't that i don't understand her seems like a terrible idea if she's vomiting exactly like she's gonna choke on her vomit she could die that way right and it's like yeah and then people said she got this sick after something that he gave her and yeah and that again that's hearsay because none of us were there but what yeah it's all it there's a lot of factors that go into this specific case exactly i can see why they used this charge here and where it's silly to say that like oh like you know if he goes down for this watch out husband of america it's
like no i don't think that's the case and look how tough it was to get here in the first place yes you know i think it wasn't like this was like stop one it's the doctor of it all really takes it up a notch right exactly so halpern's autopsy Report had definitely influenced the jury's decision to return an indictment against John, but so did testimony given by his now ex -wife, Ann Kurth.
When John had initially asked his lawyer to draw up the divorce papers, his attorney actually strongly advised against it, noting that it would look pretty bad if he was already divorcing the woman he'd left his wife for.
Yeah. But John insisted it needed to happen, and the couple was divorced on March 12, 1970, 70 one week short of the anniversary of jones death man yeah they had like man they had barely made it a year when i say you gotta get it together i mean you gotta get it together you gotta get it together you're doing truly what are you because it's like when they got married right after this remember when we were talking about it we're like listen like i'm not saying anything i'm not saying he did it i'm just saying if you know the whole place is thinking you might have done it and then you go marry the lady
you were having an affair with what are you doing Five minutes after she dies?
Get a fucking publicist. You gotta think a little bit.
And just use your goddamn brain, dude.
Seriously. Like, come on.
It turned out, though, that John's lawyer was right to be worried.
When she took the witness stand, an obviously angry and bitter Ann performed very dramatically for the jury, telling them, quote, John Hill had not only killed his first wife, but had also tried to kill her on three occasions.
Damn, man. Anne insisted that John had managed to fake his polygraph results and made her best attempt to convince the entire courtroom and the assembled press that John Hill was a violent and dangerous man.
Wow. Now, he very well could have been, but it's like, I feel like in this case, I don't know, should we, this is tough.
This is tough, but it's also like, she's mad, obviously.
Right. is she so mad that she's gonna brand him a murderer that's the thing i mean that's pretty mad that's pretty mad that's pretty bad blood between an ex -couple it is like i really don't like my ex -boyfriend but i'm not gonna i'm not gonna paint him as a murderer like i'm not gonna be like oh shit it's my chance to get him behind bars for the rest of his life but i'm like and Is there some truth to something here that, like, she's saying?
And who knows? And I'm not saying that there isn't, for the record. Like, that's...
I'm like, was... There could be.
Could he have been violent with her?
But wouldn't you think that sitting on a jury, you would question that testimony?
Of course. That's the problem here.
And that's why I'm like, was that really a smart decision to even put her on the stand?
But that's the... And exactly.
That's where the problem lies, is if she is telling the truth, then that sucks even more because she wasn't taken seriously.
Exactly. And it's...
like everything about this sucks because it's like she could absolutely just be unhinged and be up there angry and decide to ruin this man fuck this guy's world up and just make up the worst shit you can possibly make up about somebody people have done that oh yeah it's like we've seen it happen you know like it's not unheard of the last of his three cases the shit that got made up during that case yeah it's like to me it's shocking to think somebody would be so angry about the breakup of a marriage that they would want to paint that person as a murderer but people are absolutely happen and and again I'm
not saying that that's the case not if she is telling any of the truth and that sucks even more because she's just being ignored and treated as that's like I'm not an Ann fan as we know but like if she was being abused in any way or he was violent she does not deserve that but I'm the I don't think I ever would have put her on the stand as a As a prosecutor or as a defense attorney.
It was not good for anybody.
No. To be quite honest. No. But the accusations and the indictment were all deeply troubling for John.
But just as the grand jury investigation was wrapping up, he started dating a new woman.
Okay. This one lasts.
Okay, John. But seriously.
Like the marriage, I should say.
Like, come on. Yeah.
Connie Loseby, who would serve as a source of comfort and support through the upcoming trial, was the new woman John was dating.
under normal circumstances his romantic life obviously wouldn't be that important but now in the context of his legal troubles it appeared to the outside world that he had a bit of a habit of uh trading one wife in for another pretty rapidly in fact it took uh john's lawyer richard racehorse haynes who i'm actually working on another case of his right now oh my god considerable effort and convincing to prevent his client from marrying connie before the trial he He was like, I don't think you should do this.
He's like, dude, just take a minute.
He's like, I told you not to divorce Anne in the middle of this and look at her on the stand over there.
That's not good for you.
And now you're ready to marry again in the middle of this?
Like, dude, get it.
Again, use your fucking brain.
Like, what is going on?
Not only are you on trial for murder by omission, like that, you're in the headlines for that anyway, you would be regardless.
You're a high society man.
What the fuck are you doing?
This is just wild. Play the game, idiot.
Yeah, this is just wild.
jesus christ so when the trial did finally begin on february uh yeah february 15th 1971 john hill's love life was of course put on display for everybody to see yeah which it didn't need to be it didn't need to be but in this case it's like honey but that's what i'm saying like he didn't need this to be like why did you do this like just take take a beat yes take a beat please be a dad take a beat and deal with what's going on in your life like don't you don't exactly I understand you need to like if because again if he's not part of this if this is all like holy shit I didn't do this which we
don't know which we don't know I mean he was negligent that is by 100 100 nobody can deny that but it's like if he's really just going through this shit and it's like holy like I fucked up I understand needing comfort like somebody to like you're it's probably lonely and scary and like whatever I get that don't date someone right away way be a friend find a friend yeah it's like wait a little bit that's the thing it's just you know it's not gonna look don't be seen in the 50 foot radius of a woman that you're not related to so in his opening statement uh for the jury id mcmaster said we expect
to prove that problems arose in the course of this marriage which resulted in the filing of a divorce petition on december 3rd 1968 when john learned that joan planned to contest the marriage using his affair with Anne against him, he withdrew his petition.
McMaster continued on, having failed to terminate the marriage legally, the defendant began to formulate a plan to rid himself of an unwanted wife.
So after opening statements, McMaster called several witnesses to the stand to testify as to John's behavior and actions in the days leading up to and immediately following Joan's death.
Among the first witnesses was a woman named Diane Settigast, I believe.
She was a family friend who who paid multiple visits to check on Joan before she was even admitted to the hospital.
Among other things, Diane told the jury that on the night before Joan's funeral, John was showing Laurel and Hardy films to his friends in the home, just laughing and having a good time.
The night before her funeral, like after she had died the most violent death in front of him and in his arms. Okay.
Yeah. According to Diane, John said Joan had a, and this is a quote, had a very high fever, approximately 106, and he had broken it.
He said after he broke the fever, he didn't take her to a hospital because he thought she was getting all right.
John. A 106 -degree fever as an adult?
Are you fucking kidding me?
You're bordering brain damage at that point, aren't you?
But 106 is just wild.
That is bordering brain damage, right?
I think they've found research that suggests that it's not as simple as that, but I don't.
I honestly do not know what the newest thing is.
That was always the thought that passed.
I think it was like 105 or something.
Well, so back then you would have thought.
So back there, I was going to say, so that was the thought process back there and it still might be now.
I haven't seen the updated stuff but I know for an adult that is incredibly high because I know they let kids get a little higher.
It's a strange thing.
Yeah, and that's only nowadays that they let kids get higher.
Back then even you would have brought your kid or your wife to a hospital you would think.
Well, that's the other thing with that doctor who was like oh watch out husbands of america you're all gonna get thrown in jail for killing your wives if they die it's like but think about it if like you you did this still because he's acting like that's so wild and it's like but if you just watched your child suffer for days and did nothing to bring them to a hospital or help them same you would be charged with something exactly for like willfully ignoring that your child was sick so why is your partner any different agreed you know like it's just like you should if it's a person in your life
that you have especially legally bound yourself to yeah you should have to bring them in like for them you should give a shit right yeah this is I mean 106 is just to be like oh yeah she had 106 fever but I broke it so like I figured she was fine why the fuck did she have a 106 fever in the first place it's like you're sitting there being like I broke it I broke it it's like how'd you break it that like what did you do yeah like what the fuck and it's like why was it that high in the first place At least that would be the shocking thing.
Right. Sure, maybe you broke it, but you bring it to the hospital and go, why did it get that high?
Exactly. Like, what kind of infection is her body fighting off?
I mean, that's a lot.
That's high. Damn. You know what time it is?
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Now, by the time Ann Kurth took the stand to testify on behalf of the state, it was becoming clear that just as they had in the grand jury case, the district attorney's office was hoping to succeed with a case built on innuendo.
In fact, Racehorse Haynes, our defense attorney there, had argued considerably, actually, to keep Ann out of the courtroom for obvious reasons, knowing that her anger and resentment could lead to a mostly slanderous testimony about his client.
But he was ultimately overruled, and on February 25th, she did arrive in court to testify.
According to Ann, John hated Joan and, quote, couldn't stand to be around her.
Okay. That's also fucked up, too.
It's like, yeah, we don't need to know.
I guess we do need to know that.
No, I know. It's just like...
It just sucks. That's the mother of his child.
Like, that's really fucked up.
It's sad. Now, over the course of her testimony, Ann claimed that she'd found, quote, three laboratory dishes containing a reddish substance with white spots in John's apartment, and she heavily implied that he had used tainted pastries to poison Joan.
That's specific. Very specific.
All of that is pretty specific.
According to Anne, his violent rage was not just reserved for Joan, like I said earlier.
While on the stand, she told the jury that he had also tried to kill her multiple times, once by deliberately crashing their car into a bridge abutment or abutment?
Yeah. And another time by, quote, trying to inject her with a syringe.
So it's like... These are, like, pretty specific.
And again, I know people lie.
I know, I realize that.
I'm not being like, well, I'll hustle my throat.
Yeah. But it's like, I'll hustle my throat.
That's specific shit.
And we're going to get more specific because when asked by McMaster why she thought John was trying to kill her with a syringe, Anne said, he just told me how he killed Joan with a needle.
He pulled the syringe from his pocket and tried to get it into me.
I mean, that's scary.
And who am I to say that that didn't happen?
I don't fucking know.
Well, that's the thing.
It's like, I'm not going to sit here and say she's lying.
Do I like Anne? No. Do I believe her?
I don't know. I have no idea.
I'm not going to say she's wrong and that she's totally lying.
like imagine if she's telling the truth well that's the that's exactly the problem you're not just gonna like it but it's like what a shitty way for this to come about if she is telling the truth because so many people aren't gonna believe it and just think she's angry and you wish that there was somebody there during those times like like you wish that some kind of it was some kind of person near her that knew that there was something going on that could be like yeah there was some stuff happening especially after that car crash it's too bad that potentially Essentially, like, she didn't say
anything then, and they couldn't have figured out, like, was this intentional?
Yeah. Like, you know how they can look into that?
Yeah, this is interesting.
But Anne claimed that John's hand was shaking too hard to inject the syringe into her, and he actually dropped it, but that he had another and again attempted to inject her with something, but abandoned his plan when the headlights of an approaching car came into view, she said.
The fuck? Now, that dramatic revelation was immediately followed by a loud and emphatic objection from Haynes, the defense attorney, who argued that the testimony was prejudicial, inflammatory, and privileged as communication between a husband and a wife.
That's fucked up. Yeah.
And at that point, he moved for a mistrial.
It's fucked up, but that whole loophole there, people rely on that.
That loophole can be so fucking detrimental.
And it doesn't always work.
I was watching something recently.
I don't even remember if it was fiction or not.
Or maybe I read something about it recently.
Maybe it was a dream.
Maybe it was a dream.
No, I remember reading or watching something where they were going to try to use that defense, but then they couldn't.
Yeah, definitely. It's a hairy...
It's a very specific situation.
Yeah. So I think that it can...
And I'm talking about, like, the privileged testimony.
But he was like, fuck this, we're going for it, and he moved for a mistrial.
Judge Fred Hooey overruled Hain's objection and called a recess, but when they returned a short time later, the judge said he reconsidered what had occurred in the courtroom and granted a mistrial.
Are you kidding me?
That's why I was like, why the fuck did you guys want her on the stand?
Like, I know it would have been great, But the testimony was so intense and so, wow.
Yeah. That you could see this coming from a mile away, that a mistrial was going to happen.
And it's like, again, if he really did do that shit, then that is so fucked up that her just simply saying that he did that shit.
And if it's the truth.
Made a mistrial. Can you imagine if that's real?
You sit up there and they say, do you swear to tell the whole truth and nothing about the truth?
And you're like, yeah.
Imagine. And you go ahead and do that, like, hopefully.
This is fucked up. And if that's the outcome, like, that's why people don't testify sometimes.
Yeah, that's fucked up.
That's why people don't talk about this shit.
Wow, that's really fucked up.
Also, Judge Hooey. Hooey, I know.
That's a great name.
Hooey. I just had to say it.
It's great. Judge Hooey.
Oh, my God. So outside the courtroom, reporters had expected to find John Hill pleased with the outcome.
And they were actually surprised by his reaction to the judge's declaration.
He told the press, I'm disappointed that we didn't get to carry on with this.
I would have liked to get it over with.
Oh. Being like, I really would like my name cleared here.
Like I would like to be declared innocent.
Yes. Because a misdrial does carry with it some connotations.
Because it's literally like something went awry and we still don't know.
But we still have no idea what's going on.
That's the thing. Now, it turned out that John may have been right to be disappointed, though.
A poll of the jurors conducted just a few days after the trial indicated that there was an overwhelming majority in favor of an acquittal.
Wow. Yeah. So he was right.
So John Hill was not the only one disappointed with the mistrial, obviously.
After spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in his pursuit of justice, and just in general, Ash Robinson was outraged by this decision.
decision id mcmaster was also in a similar situation he spent a wild amount of the state's time and resources pursuing this case that many at this point just believed was a lost cause and given all that had gone into the case against john hill to that point neither man was willing to let it go so easily and a few months after the mistrial was declared the da's office announced that the second trial of John Hill would begin November 15th, 1972.
No. Throughout his relationship with Connie, John had managed to keep the details of the trial and his relationships with Joan and Anne kind of private from her somehow.
That's a little shocking.
It truly is. But over, excuse me, of course, she knew why he was on trial and she'd heard about Joan's death in the papers, but she actually didn't know anything about Ash Robinson.
Anne's claims that John had tried to murder Joan were also something that Connie didn't really know about.
Oops. And she didn't really know about any of the other details that came out in court.
I guess she wasn't there.
But that changed in the days just before the wedding because he does end up proposing to her.
Uh -oh. And just a couple days before the wedding, a folder arrived addressed to Connie's parents.
Inside there were newspaper clippings, reports, and other information detailing the entire situation.
The press reports of Jones' death, the reports from private detectives and doctors, and a wealth of information about John's indictment and trial.
The envelope had no return address, but most in Texas assumed that it had come from at least Ash Robinson or his people.
Yeah. At least his people.
Trying to save a gal.
Which, from what they think is going on.
You know, I can't be mad at that.
I simply can't. Just letting them know the information.
He and his truly believed to warn this girl is the right thing to do, in my opinion.
And if he, you know, whatever.
It's just, oof. If he truly felt this way.
Yeah. And he did truly feel this way.
Now, John had fully expected McMaster to retry him for murder.
But in the meantime, he wasn't going to let the district attorney or Ash Robinson control the rest of his life.
And in June of that year, he and Connie did end up getting married and a small ceremony of friends.
I'm surprised her parents weren't a little weary of that.
Very interested. Or maybe they were.
I'm sure they were to some degree, but she's a grown woman.
So it was his third marriage and her first. By that point, John's income had been seriously impacted by the case, and most of his savings had also been eaten up to pay for his defense.
And to make matters worse, the bank that held several of the loans that he had taken out to renovate the house had called in the loan, placing further financial stress on this new couple and preventing them from even taking a honeymoon wow so sad but still the couple was happy and excited about their future together with the new trial more than a year away at this point everyone pretty much got back to what passed i guess for a normal life john and his lawyers continued pursuing a civil suit against ash for slander mcmaster won excuse me ran for and won a seat on the criminal court and ash Robson continued
his uh protracted amateur investigation I guess we could call it of John Hill it was for the first time in a very long time mostly quiet in the lives of everybody involved in the case Connie even actually felt like John's colleagues and neighbors were finally putting the past behind them and willing to welcome him back into social circles like things seem to just it's wild how when like how what time does yeah how people are just willing to forget like sure Sure.
A new case happens.
A new. And they just move on.
And they just move on.
Exactly. So in late September of 1972, she traveled with John to Las Vegas for a plastic surgery convention.
Neither of them was particularly fond of Vegas, but the trip kind of was like a honeymoon for them since they hadn't been able to take one after the wedding.
And they were just really happy to be together, like getting some time away.
They returned to Houston on the evening of September 24th and took a cab from the airport back to the house.
Both of them were eager to see Robert, little boot, and tell him about the trip.
Connie practically ran to the door.
Like, she really loved Robert.
Well, that's nice. Yeah.
She seems like a good woman from what I read.
And I hope, it seems like they were happy together, so I hope they were.
Yeah. Uh -oh. So she ran to the door, but when she got to it, she was surprised to find the door locked.
So she pressed the doorbell and waited for a minute, but nobody answered.
And inside, all she could hear was the television on, like, really, like, blaring loud.
And she assumed Robert must have just gotten wrapped up in what he was watching and didn't hear the bell.
But she also thought, why hadn't John's mother, who was there taking care of Robert, heard it?
So she peered through the small window next to the door, and she actually saw a figure moving in their direction, and she figured it was Robert.
But as the figure got closer, Connie noticed that this figure was dressed in what looked like a green jumpsuit or coveralls with a hood covering their face what the fuck and for a split second she was like why would Robert or Myra John's mom be wearing a costume like what what when the door finally did open Connie saw that it was indeed a hooded figure standing before her and she still thought it was Robert so she said what's this and for a few seconds the two just stood at the door looking at one another and not saying anything what and then it occurred to Connie that the figure before her was actually
too tall to be Robert and too large to be Myra and before she could call out to John the man in green grabbed her by a gold braided necklace she was wearing and dragged her into the house oh my what yeah everything happened incredibly quickly from that point the figure finally spoke telling them that it was a robbery Connie twisted trying to get out of the guy's grip and at this point john is here and he steps forward to protect his wife and that distracted the intruder and gave the opportunity to connie to break free of the intruder's grasp so now free john pushed connie out of the way and she ran out
the front door toward the neighbor's house to get help she just reached the house two doors down when she heard a gunshot and then she she heard another.
Shut up. So she shouted to her neighbor, my husband's being murdered, just as the neighbor opened the door.
What the fuck is going on right now?
It's insane. Connie managed to calm herself down enough to call the police when she was inside her neighbor's house and explained what happened, and then she called Don Fullenweider, one of John's lawyers who actually lived in their neighborhood.
So Don races over on foot, and he actually managed to reach the house before the police did.
Moving slowly, he approached the front door, which was still slightly open and he pushed in he pushed inside and inside the house looked fairly undisturbed but then his eyes settled on something in the middle of the room 12 year old robert hill was standing over his father sobbing with his feet his like robert's feet and his wrists bound with heavy tape he looked up and there was this is just so sad it's also very graphic there was still a piece of tape hanging from the corner of his mouth where somebody had taped his mouth shut but at that point he had been able to get it open and he looked up
and he said they've killed my daddy oh my god destroying which like ruined me i just want to hug robert i know he went the this kid went through way too much i was just gonna say by the time he was 12 years old like and then like you think you're getting like it sounds like connie really cared about him and like yeah it seems like it was gonna be like a happy home hopefully oh this is all so complicated Complicated and like very upsetting.
It's just fucked up.
Oh. So Full and Wider carried the boy outside to the front lawn just as the police and paramedics arrived at the house and they went back inside with the officers to direct them to John's body.
The paramedic checked for a pulse or any sign of life, but there weren't any.
And when they turned the body over, this is pretty bleak.
when they turned the body over they were shocked to find that john's eyes nose and mouth were completely covered in the same heavy tape that had been used to bind robert what and there was blood seeping out from underneath whoever did this shot is that what they did they shot they shot him and then covered his eyes nose and mouth with tape or they did that first that yeah they did that first i i think the fuck yeah it's very strange wow yeah so the paramedics approached a stunned dawn full and wider and said i'm sorry mister we're too late at just 41 years old john hill was dead one years old
41 wow years old wow so following the declaration of a mistrial more than a few people wondered whether john hill was in danger now wow connie recalled countless nights of harassing phone calls she said that she would spot ash driving back and forth outside of their house late at night John's lawyer Richard Haynes had even suggested that John hire a body guard but by that point John didn't have the money to get one eventually what'd you say sorry that's awful it is yeah eventually after a few months the calls did slow down and eventually stopped and even Ash seemed to slow the frequency of his alleged
drive -bys which led Connie to believe that they were out of danger and things were finally settling down like she had kind of said earlier like it seemed like people were finally chilling out but despite the relative calm few people were all that surprised when the news of john's murder was reported in the press id mcmaster told a friend when that old boy signed that letter ash robinson wrote way back in december and then reneged on it he signed his death warrant oh yeah others were less like that's that's an indictment right black and white damn i know others were less subtle or quiet about their
opinions which honestly that wasn't that subtle to me i don't know if that was about as subtle as a fucking like iron slab falling on you not very subtle no but i guess the other people were like a piano falling on you yeah so just one day after the murder richard haynes told the press he thought the robbery was a cover -up and the slaying could have been an assassination with the implication that ash robinson was behind john's murder so the first thing detectives did after searching the scene was talk to robert hill according to the boy a man had shown up at the hill residence about a half hour
before his parents got home and forced his way inside after tying up robert and his grandmother myra the man simply sat in the house and waited for john and connie to return okay robert was in another room when he heard that the gun when he heard the gun shots and by the time he managed to get out to where his father was the intruder was gone i mean I mean, that was, that seems like that was the intention.
You wait for him to come.
Oh, yeah. Kill him and then you leave. It was 100%.
Like, that was the intention.
That kind of proves the, at least the part that this was clearly, this wasn't like just a robbery that John happened to be involved in.
Not at all. No. It would take a few more days before John's mother, Myra, could speak.
I mean, of course. And also, I mean, one, because of the emotional trauma, but she had also been kicked in the throat by the killer.
Oh, my God. Yeah. Well, that doesn't seem like it would be someone Ash Robinson.
Not that I believe that that was really it anyway, but this doesn't seem like it would be connected to Ash Robinson having his own wife kicked in the throat.
I feel like that wouldn't be.
That's not his wife.
It's John's mom. Oh, John's mom.
I forgot this was John's mom.
Yeah. But, yeah, no, but that also doesn't, because it's like having Robert, I don't know.
It just doesn't feel.
He loved Robert. He loved Robert.
I feel like he would never put that kid in.
I don't know, Ash. I'm acting like I know him.
I'm like, I know him, and I feel like he— From what I've heard here, it seems so unlikely that somebody who loves their grandson that much and dotes on them so much and cares about them would put them through that kind of trauma.
I agree with that. For their own gain, you know?
I agree with that, and I'm not saying that he did arrange this, but just playing devil's advocate, maybe he didn't know that Robert was going to be home.
That's true. Or maybe he had— But he would kind of have to know because if he knows that they're on their trip, where's Robert?
If they're not taking care of them, then, you know.
Yeah, I don't know.
Maybe he didn't want to know the details.
Yeah, I mean, it's entirely possible.
I don't know that he.
It's all just, this is very confusing.
Poor Myra. Yeah. Geez.
Kicked in the throat.
Poor everyone involved in this case.
What a. The tragedy just keeps trickling down.
down. But when she was able to speak, Myra told a nearly identical story to what Robert had told police.
According to Myra, they received a call at the house the night before from a man who said his name was James Gleeson.
There was an urgent tone, she said in his voice, and he was very anxious to speak with John.
So Myra said the Hills would be returning the following evening.
And as soon as she said that, the man hung up.
Now, hindsight is 2020, but going forward, don't ever tell anybody when your family members or when you are going to be home or anything about your schedule.
Yeah, don't let strangers know those things.
No. The man called again the next afternoon, and again, Myra said that they would be home that night around 7 .30.
Oh, there you go. And obviously she didn't know that this would happen.
Of course she didn't.
But at about 7 p .m. that night, the doorbell rang.
Robert got up to answer it, assuming it was his parents.
but when he opened the door, he found a large man standing before them wearing a hood and what appeared to Myra to be a wig, which that just fucking creeps me out.
The man raised his gun and pointed it at them, informing them that this was a robbery.
He then ordered them into an adjacent room where they were tied up, taped, and just told to sit down and wait.
About 20 minutes later, they heard the sound of a car pulling up inside the driveway, way and fearing that robert or myra might call out to john the man kicked robert in the side of the head 12 year old boy and myra in the throat and then left the room the fuck myra told the detective she didn't recognize the man and he never said anything to indicate who he was or why he was there other than saying it was a robbery that's terrifying but he's sitting in the house waiting for them to come home he's not going through anything he's just tying them up Exactly.
What the fuck? So sensing the gravity of the situation, Dr. Joseph Yahimchik decided to handle the case himself on behalf of the coroner's office.
He's like, I'm already pretty involved in this.
So John had been shot, it turned out, three times with a .38 caliber revolver.
He'd been shot once in the wrist, which I'm assuming was in a struggle.
A defense. Once in the right shoulder, and the third shot was the fatal one, which was through the stomach, and it severed his aorta oh yeah all the bleeding yeah yahimchik estimated that this is horrible john likely bled internally for three to five minutes before dying from his wounds so this was a unfortunately a slow death awful there were also deep scratches and abrasion abrasions on his face and arms which the coroner interpreted interpreted as a sign that john had put up a considerable considerable fight before sustaining the disabling shot yeah i mean your kid is in the house of course
you're gonna fight yeah the detectives at the scene started operating from the position that john's death was simply a robbery gone wrong i guess that's all they had at that point so how else are you gonna go about it and if you start from there then maybe you can figure it out very unbiasedly there yeah so maybe that that's i think that is the smart way instead of going him with a preconceived notion of like something strange happened here right and there were signs that maybe this was a robbery because his john's briefcase and wallet were missing and the man who had killed him like we know said
more than once that it was a robbery yeah but as far as anybody could tell once they started kind of going through everything the killer hadn't even entered or seemed interested in the rooms the other rooms in the house besides the one where the murders took took place or the murder excuse me took place which obviously struck at the investigators as strange because john and connie's house was full of valuable items that would have attracted the attention of a robber and again why are you waiting for the other people to come home you've already subdued the grandmother right the child so now this would be
your chance to go take anything you want and get the fuck out of there before somebody who's maybe more in the prime time to fight back with you and especially coming home he got there at seven she myra had told him you know like my son who it seems like you're looking for or this caller this mystery caller and if if this is if that was set up as a robbery and it is connected you'd have a half hour to get all the shit get all the shit get out before they get home and not have to kill anybody so so the yeah no there's no way so other than that those couple things uh the scene was light on evidence
and And after six hours of searching the premises, the most that the detectives found were the rolls of tape used to bind Robert and Myra.
One of the fingers from the work gloves that the intruder wore and the green hood that he had been wearing.
Which turned out to be a cheap green pillowcase with holes cut out so that he could see.
Oh, my God. That is like the strangers.
Yes. Oh, yes. I hate that.
It freaks me out a lot.
Oh, God, poor Robert.
And poor Myra. Like seeing that.
And Connie to open your door to that.
Oh, my God. that. I forgot that she just, oh.
Yeah. Oh, I hate this.
And John, obviously.
That's horrifying. Later, when the evidence had been processed, the detectives would be disappointed to find that no fingerprints had been left anywhere.
Of course. Of course.
So about a week later, lead detective Jerry Carpenter got a call that some kids had found John's briefcase in some bushes a few miles from the home.
When he arrived, Carpenter was disappointed to find that all all of the children in the neighborhood had heavily handled the briefcase.
But as he searched around the site for additional evidence, he noticed what he thought was a pipe covered in leaves and mud.
But as he started pulling it out of the dirt, he realized it was not a pipe, but a .38 revolver.
Oh, what? Which is what John was shot with.
When the ballistics test finally came back a few days later, they confirmed that the revolver discovered in the lot with the briefcase was the exact same one that had been used to kill John Hill.
Only a few miles from the house, they threw it in a bush.
Yeah. The fuck? Yeah.
That's weird. So detectives, this is where shit is going to go.
It goes even more wily.
You couldn't make this.
You would watch this in a movie and be like, they did a little too much here.
Like, I'm not following.
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So detectives trace the gun back to Dr. Oren, I believe it's Stabes or Stabes.
What? A Washington, D .C.
doctor. he sheepishly informed detectives that he had indeed purchased the gun while he was in texas on business but that it had been stolen from him by a sex worker that he had hired while he was asleep and he said that this sex worker also stole one of his cars damn he couldn't remember much about the woman but he said that she referred to herself by the name dusty and he thought that her Her real name was Marsha McCritick.
Okay. McKittrick. Using his former Vice Squad contacts, Carpenter learned that there was indeed a sex worker in Houston who did operate under the name Dusty and that she would likely be found in the company, excuse me, in the company.
The company. The company.
It's a fancy company.
A company. The company of her boyfriend, Bobby Vandiver, and an older woman by the name of Lillipolis.
What the fuck is going on?
I told you. Holy shit.
It gets very, very complicated.
So after months of dead ends and dried up leads, the investigators finally managed to track down all three of these people at Lila's home in Houston.
All were arrested without incident on April 27th, 1973.
At first, all three were very uncooperative with investigators.
They all denied any involvement in the murder.
They refused to say anything else to detectives.
How the fuck did your gun end up there?
or the gun that you stole right yeah but things started to change when myra and robert hill were brought into the precinct for a lineup of the men standing on the other side of the glass only two looked vaguely familiar to robert but he couldn't be certain if either was the intruder myra on the other hand had absolutely no doubt about it after looking each person over carefully and listening Listening to their voices, she identified Bobby, Bobby Vandiver, as the man who had broken into their home and attacked them.
Whoa. Yeah. It took a few days of contemplation and back and forth with investigators before Bobby finally accepted that there was likely not any way out of this situation, and he agreed to talk to Carpenter.
her according to bobby it was late and uh excuse me it was august 1972 when lilla the older woman who i think they were just like friends with her yeah lilla started talking about a contract on someone's life with a five thousand dollar payout shut the fuck up ordinarily bobby didn't do things like that he said but he was particularly broke at the time and he told her that he'd think about it i love ordinarily i wouldn't ordinarily i wouldn't be a hitman wouldn't kill people for money but but in tough times you know yeah jesus christ so a few days later lila called to say that somebody else had
taken the job so forget it but then a few days after that she called again and she said that had fallen through and bobby it's still available if you want it he told the detective she told me that the contract was on a doctor who had killed his wife and it was the wife's father who was wanting him dead oh boy during his statement bobby knew all the details of the the case from the location of the hill's house to their schedules when lila gave bobby the photo of his target it had been cut along the corners into the shape of a coffin which she said had been done by ash that is theatrical theatrical
as fuck marcia helped gather the information and tracked the hill's movements to make sure that everything would work out as planned and bobby's description of the night of the murders was nearly identical to what the investigators had been told by robert and Myra.
He told Carpenter, I got the pillowcase from Lillipolis's house.
What the fuck? This is so fucked up.
It's unreal. His account of the murder not only matched the witness's statements, but it also fit with the theory and the evidence collected at the scene and from the body.
But the problem was, while they believed what Bobby had told them, their entire case was turning into this gigantic conspiracy.
Because now we're bringing Ash Robinson into it.
to it and saying he contracted these people.
And now we have to prove that.
How do we prove that?
Holy shit, this just keeps turning.
This is one of the most twisty, turny cases that I have ever read of.
It really is. So the biggest challenge facing the district attorney at that point was, according to Texas law, a jury could not convict a person based solely on the testimony of their accomplice.
That's to say, Bobby might have confessed to the murder, but in order to get additional convictions for his girlfriend, Marsha McKittrick and Lilla Pauly and Ash Robinson, they would all need to have corroborating testimony.
Oh, shit. But still, prosecutor Bob Bennett decided to bring the case before a grand jury who indicted Bobby VanDiver and Marsha McCritick for first -degree murder and Lilla Pauly as an accomplice.
Wow. So while they waited for the trial date to come, Bennett put Bobby Vandiver and his wife, who was not Marcia, Oh my, these men!
I know, up in a motel where it was basically like a kind of house arrest where Bobby agreed to stay in the motel unless given explicit permission to go anywhere else.
In June of 1973, Bobby explained that his wife Vicki had been engaged in a bitter custody battle with the father of her child and needed to travel to Dallas for a hearing, And he was seeking permission to accompany her and stay there for the duration of that trial.
So I just want to get this straight really quick.
Totally, I get it. His wife is trying to get custody of a child while married to a man who admitted to just doing a contract killing?
Yep. Or I don't know if she currently had custody.
Don't give them custody.
Yeah, don't give them custody.
I know this is long ago in the past, but like, hope that kid is okay.
Because the fact that he's like, I would like to join her for that custody hearing, it's like, my guy, I don't think you should.
Yeah, I think that's actually really bad.
I think that's going to be a strike against her.
Yeah, you would think.
It's like you are living in a motel right now because you have to.
Because you just admitted to doing a contract killing, kicking a grandma in the throat, and kicking a kid in the head.
And murdering a man.
After murdering a man.
And you would have murdered Connie if she had not gotten out of the house.
No one's all right.
No one is okay. No one's okay here.
No. This is really wild.
My brain won't wrap around to any of these people's actions or thoughts.
And when we say no one, we mean no one.
Literally no one. Because given how cooperative Bobby had been to that point, Bennett said, yeah, you can go travel to that custody hearing on the condition that you check in with me regularly in return for your trial, which is scheduled for September.
So you really meant no one.
No, I straight up meant no one.
No one's all right.
Now, you're going to be shocked to hear that months passed and Bobby actually did seem to be following the rules laid out by Bennett.
That is shocking. Which set the prosecutor's mind at ease.
He even showed up for his trial in September, just as he was expected to do.
But upon his arrival, he learned that the trial would be delayed.
and was rescheduled for April 1974.
Unfortunately for Bennett, when the trial date finally did arrive, Bobby was nowhere to be seen.
Maybe the reality of a first -degree murder conviction was finally setting in, or maybe he had just gotten tired of waiting around.
But whatever the case, after the trial was rescheduled, Bobby decided not to return to Dallas, and instead he and Vicky went on the run.
Hopefully without that child.
I don't think the child was with them.
I actually cannot confirm that, I really hope not.
I'm going to say for my own and for everybody's peace of mind that no. They were not.
And that child is an adult now, and it's fine.
Yeah, totally fine.
They ended up settling in Longview, Texas.
They both settled in Longview, Texas, and he underwent the name J .C.
Sheridan. Wow. He took on an alias.
Yeah. As one of the smaller cities in Texas, Longview's law enforcement agencies had a tendency to know and keep tabs on the local troublemakers.
So when Officer John Raymer noticed a new car and two new faces hanging out at the local pool halls and bars.
It's a small town, I love it.
It's so. He made a point of finding out who this new couple was.
He had good instincts and he prided himself on his ability to size people up with reasonable accuracy.
I mean, he's doing good so far.
He is. This guy, this is, the end of this is truly movie.
It's like a movie, yeah.
It is, it sounds ridiculous, but it's real.
As soon as he saw quote unquote J .C.
Sheridan, he figured the guy was in town for one of four reasons.
To sell drugs, to look for an underworld contract, pimping, or he was on the run.
After getting Sheridan's name, Raymer ran the man through every database he could think of and he came up with nothing under the name J .C.
Sheridan, of course.
But still, something didn't seem right with this new guy in town.
So he was like, I'm going to keep a close eye on this one.
Good for you, man. Yeah, instincts.
instincts strangely enough bobby's arrival in longview did coincide with a startling increase in bar room fights and fatalities around the area you don't say so weird uh and law enforcement officials had been on high alert alert for any report i was reading alert and reports at the same time alert they've been on hot alert for any reports of bar fights or problems at drinking establishments and on the evening of may 11th john raymer was punching out of work and he went down to the Continental, where Vicky was working as a waitress at the time.
He was just drinking his coffee, and he heard a commotion on the other side of the room.
The noise turned out to be coming from a drunk person just harmlessly ranting about something.
But as he scanned the rest of the room, he did lock eyes with J .C.
Sheridan, a .k .a. Bobby, who was playing pool.
They stared at one another briefly, and then Bobby gently set his cue down on the table and made a hasty exit toward the back door.
Yeah. His quick exit only made him more suspicious in Raymer's eyes.
But things felt too tense in the bar that night, so Raymer thought it was best to just stick around and make sure things didn't get out of hand in the bar.
And he was like, I'm going to table that, that juicy Sheridan character.
I'm going to let that just kind of settle, marinate a little bit.
Just for now. Yeah.
But a few days later, he had gotten off of work and was settling into bed at home when his phone rang.
The anonymous voice on the other end sounded young and slightly gruff, not anybody he recognized.
The caller informed Raymer that the man he'd been keeping an eye on in Longview was not J .C.
Sheridan, but Bobby Vandiver, a man who had recently gone on the lam to avoid first -degree murder.
Wow. Yeah. Murder charges, excuse me.
Having learned this new information, Raymer knew that he was not going to be able to sleep at this point.
So he got back to the office and he called the Mesquite police to get a physical description of Bobby.
His contact at the Mesquite police department said they would get back to him with a photo identification by teletype.
Teletype. Teletype.
Rather than wait for the image to reach him though, Raymer went out to patrol in the hopes that he might find Bobby on the street somewhere.
Raymer is like. He's that one like chain smoking in his office.
He's the detective here.
like he's just i'm like all right all right raymer yeah all right he's got instincts and they're right he was dead on dead on just that's cool that is cool to just see some guy and be like i don't know like i'm sorry raymer is like like the mvp here that's cool yeah and he's just not giving up either he's not like letting it go he's like something's up here quintessential small town cop yeah like i like from a movie in texas i love it he he lives in a saloon and i I know.
He lives in a saloon.
His whole house is swinging doors.
He's brain telepathy right there.
So he's like, yeah, I'm going to go out and find this motherfucker.
He was just outside of the Continental when he got a radio communication asking him to contact the department.
So he found the nearest payphone and he called the department.
And, of course, he got the confirmation that J .C.
Sheridan was Bobby.
Bobby. And more importantly, during an arrest for drunk driving in February, Bobby told the arresting officer, quote, he would kill the next officer who tried to arrest him.
Wow. So, now Raymer's like, fuck.
Oh, shit. Now, he knew that Bobby, at this point, was inside the Continental.
And under the circumstances, though, he called for backup and waited for them to arrive before attempting the arrest. Raymer keeps getting better.
Yeah. He's not going in there like an in it he's like i just heard straight up black and white i'm gonna kill the next officer who tries to arrest me i'm not gonna blow myself in there no i'm gonna get some backup like he's this man's taking all the right steps he is i'm impressed by raymer i am too i hope i continue to be you will don't disappoint me okay i was like don't make him bad yeah so with a plain clothes officer positioned outside the back door raymer entered the continental and approached the area with the pool tables, of course.
When he called out Bobby's name, Bobby, Bobby looked up in surprise to see that Raymer was walking towards him with his gun drawn.
Like, motherfucker, you're under arrest. I love that he called out Bobby.
And Bobby looked up.
Because you know instinctively he's going to look up.
So with Raymer standing directly in front of him, the two men stared at one another for a few seconds.
And then Bobby reached for the gun in Raymer's hand, attempting to push it aside, while then reaching for his own gun with the other hand.
Damn. So instinctively, Raymer fired, but Bobby's hand had pushed the gun down and the bullet ricocheted off the floor and launched in the ceiling.
Damn. However, the heat from the discharge made the barrel of the gun really hot, which made Bobby let go, and that gave Raymer the opportunity to get him down.
What an intense takedown.
This is a shootout.
So Raymer fired a second shot, this time directly into Bobby's chest at point -blank range because he was about to shoot him.
He was. He was reaching for his weapon.
You got to do that.
Yeah. And this shot tore a huge hole in Bobby's body.
Bobby grabbed desperately at Raymer and dragged him to the floor with him.
Vicky ran over to her husband in terror, pushing Raymer and the other officer aside.
But by the time she had Bobby's head in her hands, he was already dead.
Holy shit. So he died.
so now with bobby vandiver dead or van duver dead bob bennett's case against those involved in john's hills uh john hill's murder was in peril yeah i was just gonna say that fucked everything up though it did fuck everything up which you can't be disappointed in ramer because he didn't really have another option there like i mean that's that was a situation of kill or be killed wow yeah so damn but it fucked this up yeah it fucked this up yeah marcia mccritick's lawyer argued that uh excuse me mckittrick's lawyer argued that since bobby was dead and couldn't testify the prosecutor was in danger
of violating marcia's sixth amendment right to face her accuser i because bobby accused her of being involved yeah but the the way that like multiple trials in this case just get fucked by like the most minute details like yeah and just like tiny Tiny little loopholes.
Yeah. So the judge shot down the lawyer's movement to dismiss the case, but Bennett knew the lawyer had a point.
So rather at this point than risk a mistrial or an acquittal, Bennett actually struck a deal with Marsha to plead no contest and accept the guilt as an accomplice in Hill's murder, particularly as the driver of the car.
Okay. As a result of her plea, Marsha was given a sentence of 10 years in prison and was paroled after five years.
So she took the deal.
Damn. Now, Lilla Paulus went to trial in February of 1975 on a charge of being an accomplice to murder.
As part of her plea deal, Marsha had testified against Lilla, though she only did so after her immunity was granted.
Of course. She told the court that Lilla had been paid $25 ,000 by Ash Robinson to arrange the murder of his former son -in -law.
And $5 ,000 of that was what she offered Bobby to actually do the killing, which I was like, whoa.
whoa, you only got $5 ,000 of the $25 ,000 and you're doing the hit?
That's a bad deal. It's a bad deal no matter what because you're murdering someone.
In the end, Lillipolis' trial was lengthy and involved many of the Hill's closest friends and associates, but the link between Lilla and Ash was tenuous at best. As expected, when he was called to the stand, Ash, of course, strongly denied playing any role in John's death and told the court, I didn't want him dead.
his killing didn't solve any problems of mine I mean which like he makes a valid yeah what what good is he dead yeah like I'm we I want what my it sounds like what he wants is I want him put behind bars like my whole pursuit here was justice yeah that's not that just ends it now it's over I mean I guess that depends on his definition of justice exactly and it depends on if he was willing to he just wanted it over right and this was the closest thing to justice which which again, who knows?
Not me. Now, I really wanted to believe, and I still want to believe that Ash didn't have anything to do with this.
You'll never really know.
But we'll never know, but I really just want to believe he didn't.
I know. Well, Lillipal has tried everything she could think of to put distance between herself and the murder, including telling the jury that Jerry Carpenter had manipulated her into implicating Ash, saying that she would get immunity if she accused Ash.
Oh, the plot thickens.
But in the end, the jury believed the prosecutor and sentenced Lilla to 35 years in prison.
The sentence was overturned on appeal in 1981, but it was actually then reinstated by the criminal court the next year.
And unfortunately, if she was innocent, Lilla Paulus died from breast cancer in prison in 1986.
Oh, wow. Very complicated.
In 1977, Connie Hill filed a $7 .6 million civil suit against Ash Robinson, Stevenson alleging that he had colluded with Polis to have John murdered uh in court Myra Hill told the jury that Ash had been obsessed with John ever since Joan's death and was quote -unquote fiendishly vindictive towards her son in his defense Ash told the journey uh the jury this has been a journey it has he told the jury I did want him prosecuted and if he was guilty then convicted and pushed for it punished for it but there was no intention any which way in the world of killing him or having him killed.
Okay. So he's like, I didn't do it.
Yeah. In the end, the jury ruled 10 to 2 against the Hills, stating that while he may have been responsible for a certain amount in emotional damages, quote, Mr. Robinson was not guilty of the conspiracy charge and he could not be forced to pay for what he had already been cleared of by a higher court.
Damn. Now, in 1980, CBS News aired a segment on the case alleging that it was very possible Joan Robinson Hill had died from a newly discovered medical condition known as toxic shock.
Oh. Yes. First identified in the late 70s.
Toxic shock syndrome.
Yep. Scariest thing ever.
Scariest thing ever, especially as a woman.
Yeah. Because it was first identified in the late 70s and associated with tampon use.
Toxic shock syndrome causes many of the symptoms Joan experienced right before her death and would have explained the rapid onset and quick deterioration.
And as it hadn't been established in the medical community at that point in time, it also could have accounted for the multiple conflicting causes of death.
Because nobody could pinpoint it because they didn't know a lot about it.
And at this point, we'll never know because everything has been so compromised at this point.
Now, when the news of the new theory broke, John's former lawyer, Richard Haynes, told reporters, I'm not a doctor, but I'm satisfied in my own mind that Joan Robinson Hill met her death, unkindly as it was, as a consequence of what we now know to be toxic shock.
Wow. Which he can't say that definitively.
No, of course not. It's a possibility.
He's saying that that's what makes him sleep at night.
He's saying that's what makes him sleep at night.
Exactly. That's the perfect way to put it.
But still, we don't know.
That very well could be it, but there was a point in time where it very well could have been hepatitis and that everybody was like, no there's no way it's hepatitis yeah and then it could have been a bacterial infection and then there was no way it was a bacterial infection so we'll we'll never know unfortunately yeah but after the end of all the trials ash and raya robinson relocated to florida where they lived out the rest of their lives in 1981 after years of bitterness robert hill reconciled with his grandparents and maintained a good relationship with them until their deaths good for him
and And Ash Robinson died of natural causes in February 1986 at the age of 87.
Wow. And that is the wildly complicated case of the death of Joan Robinson Hill and the murder of John Hill.
I am blown away by that.
At the end of it, you don't even know what to believe in either case.
I have no idea what happened anywhere in that case.
No idea. good idea I don't know if Ash hired somebody or not but like why would somebody else just randomly kill John other than um I can't like um I don't know what because also it's like what what happened with Ann I know sounds like there was a lot of shit going on there and it's like was any of that true but then it sounds like Connie was very happy in her relationship but it's like sometimes that sometimes that happens you know that happens we'll never fucking know because it's like it's not like he was without enemies i mean look at ann is is an enemy of his absolutely might have some people
around her who were not happy with john or how she was claiming to be that's a good point you know what i didn't think of that so that's a whole other again i'm not saying she did anything or like she hired anybody or knows anybody that hired anything yeah just just saying that it does the buck doesn't stop with ash robinson there is the only person who could have possibly been this angry with john hill very good point i didn't even think of that avenue and it's like there's also i mean like you can see it he made enemies within the within the uh the like the doctors the medical the medical field
sorry Sorry, this case has been so long, I'm like, I can't think, within the medical field because I'm sure some people believed that he had killed his wife.
Yeah. And didn't he have some malpractice?
He had that one malpractice thing.
It was so long ago at that point that I don't know.
But it's just to say that, like, there was some stuff.
And, like, obviously the Ash Robinson thing, like, there's some pieces that you can sit there and put together and go, well, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
But some other stuff could make sense, too, which is unfortunate.
Yeah. Either way, it sounds like everybody just, what a complicated, awful, tragic, in every way conceivable story.
Truly. Wow. And I really think that's the perfect sign off for this.
Yeah, truly. With that being said, we hope you keep listening.
And we hope you keep it weird. Oh, but I don't even know where to go with that.
Not even slightly this weird. Yeah, don't even think about it.
You know that. Yeah, don't.
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