Episode 451: The Legend of Lavinia Fisher with RedHanded｜Morbid

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Hey, this was a really exciting episode and I think you guys are really going to dig it.

We just wanted to put something out really quick.

At the end of the episode, we say that you should head over to Red Handed's feed to hear an episode with us joining them for an amazing witchy awesome British story.

And you should. You still should do that.

But just know that their part of the The episode is going to come out next week.

So if you're looking for it right away, it won't be there, but it's going to be there next week.

We just didn't want anyone being confused.

Go check it out when it's up there and we hope you dig this episode.

We love Red Handed.

Woo! Hey weirdos, I'm Ash.

And I'm Alayna. And I'm Saruti.

And I'm Hanna. And this is Morbid!

But it's super duper special because we have our friends from Red Handed here today.

I'm so excited We're so excited We're in well obviously Boston you had to think about it though didn't you yeah I really did because we're on tour at the moment and the amount of times I've like gone out on stage and how I'll start the show I'll just be like insert city what's happening sometimes I'm like is it Dallas or is it Houston where do we leave from this morning I'd be like we're here yeah we only have one show left we've got New York tomorrow and then we're done yeah Trudge are you ready to be done I would do this for the rest of my life like so happily I love the road Saru, not so much

you're like I'm going home getting my comfy pants I'm like look we've been on the road for 27 days and I'm like that's great love meeting everybody excellent cities having the best time but I'm also like I'd quite like to go back to my bed back to my shower and cook myself a meal in my own kitchen that is not delivered to me in some sort of plastic plastic carton in my bedroom I'm such a homebody I was gonna say we both are oh my god do you want to hear the biggest tragedy in the world so before the show yesterday I ordered myself a very delicious sandwich and it was so delicious that I was like

I'm actually too stressed to enjoy this right now so I only ate a bit of it and I was like I'm gonna take it back to the hotel and I'm gonna eat it later when we feel right you forgot it I left it at the venue no no no no so I'm running We're running on Cheez -Its right now.

Oh, that's terrible.

Well, Mikey's on his way with a delicious spread.

So once you're done with this recording, we can take a break and we'll have a little spread.

I cannot wait to get moved.

I'm so pumped. I have had, this morning, four pieces of yogurt -covered raisins.

Oh, no. Four individual raisins.

Four individual yogurt -covered raisins.

I had like three bites of my kid's leftover waffle that she had already taken like 100 bites of.

But I just quickly was like, before I left. So that's what I'm running on right now.

I'm not going to tell you guys what I had for breakfast because I had an awesome breakfast. Moving on now.

We're goblins right now.

And Ashley's like, I don't know.

I had a full food network for breakfast here.

I literally did. You did.

You really did. She had avocado toast with a lot of garlic and onion on it.

I'm going to throw you under the bus.

And I made a little fruit salad.

Yogurt covered raisins, anyone?

I have a bowl of this.

If you guys hear a strange grumble in the middle of this.

it is one of any of our stomachs collectively all of them maybe truly but we are actually we're doing a really fun collab because i think we're like playing on the fact that i don't know if you guys noticed but they're not from here it's really hard to tell they have awesome access that i could listen to literally all day all day that's why i love i love your podcast for everything but your voices are so soothing oh thank you no one back home cares because they all sound like this so it's always fun to come here see and we always get the like you have boston accents which are not like the they're

not good accents they're not beautiful so like even people some of the worst accents in this country so i don't think that's true i like the boston accent yesterday we were at the venue and the lovely old security guard he like walked me back to the hotel oh yeah no yeah they walked us yeah that's so sweet and he had like a proper like i am from I'm not going to try to do it because I'm terrible at accents that's like my dad's accent oh I love it that's everyone's dad everyone's Boston dad is the full Boston experience I loved it everyone knows a Sully it's true a mix of something we are a stereotype

we are but we figure what we would do we're going to do like a case I've picked a really old case because it's always the most fun, I feel like.

Ideal. We're excited.

You can get fun with these.

And this is a super, like, it has a lot of American juice to it.

Okay, perfect. I love American nonsense.

Just nonsense. And the thing in itself, so we're going to be talking about Lavinia Fisher in the Six Mile House.

Never heard of it. I hadn't either before this.

I did. damn this the cool thing about this is it's got it's very american in and of itself because it's kind of exaggerated to the point of shenanigans i do which i feel like is solidly american in and of itself just exaggerated to shenanigans it sure is so the actual so she's known as america's first serial killer our first uh female serial killer oh okay but she's not at all oh not even a little spoiler she might not even be a murderer these are my favorite type of cases right right so this is like it has urban legend in it and has a lot of like the the south like before civil war south in it

which is like woof so there's that and it's got highwaymen in it oh cool robbery i feel like it really fits the bill here so this takes place in charleston south carolina which now is like beautiful and is on southern charm i want to go there so badly i want to go there for my batch but it's a complicated tale and this definitely begs the question is this really the story of america's first female serial killer no or is this a semi -true series of events exaggerated Exaggerated overtime into a living urban legend of some sort.

I'll take either. My idea of it is it's probably exaggerated overtime but certain aspects are true and they're interesting because she was a criminal.

There was that. So the story of Lavinia Fisher unfolds against the backdrop of the pre -Civil War era.

So it's 1815 to 1861 -ish.

Long ago. A little bit ago.

Again in Charleston, South Carolina.

It was during a time of huge economic economic, and social upheaval at this moment.

Charleston was among the wealthiest cities of the British colonies and was a hub of imports and exports, and especially in the wake of the American Revolution.

So because of this, it became one of the main entry points for several different trades, but also for enslaved people being forcibly brought into our country.

And because it was close to the ocean, it became a base of operations for merchants in tobacco industries, cotton industry, all the huge industries at the time.

So now at this time, and this is all to tell you why this all occurred.

By the 1810s, the prosperity of Charleston was not as solid as it once was.

It had happened to the other cities around, too, that the Revolution and the War of 1812 had taken a serious financial toll on them.

I don't know why Siri is deciding to take me.

Hold on. Siri just popped up, and she was like, I don't know what to tell you.

I didn't get that. Could you please, how do I get Suri to stop?

Stop Suri. Escape, escape.

Even that? Okay, that works.

Sorry, Suri just took this over.

All right. So this happened in Charleston, and the city's leaders worried about a total economic collapse that it was going to be imminent at this time.

Because of this, they feared the city would be, quote, reduced to a city of beggars, vagrants, thieves, and cutthroats.

Wow. So Paris. Yeah, right.

right and where and they were thinking pirates pirates are just going to infiltrate right right right into these ports and pirates were still a thing but they weren't the pirates that we're probably picturing like all high seas adventures and like jokes like that's what i picture as a pirate jack sparrow they were like scary as fuck like like like captain phillips yeah like scary and in the early 19th century merchant ships definitely still were fearing attacks from pirates who now were not sailing under the Jolly Roger skull and bones flag.

They were sailing under flags of other countries to try to get through.

To make matters worse, in 1819 Charleston was experiencing a big outbreak of yellow fever and that was requiring every ship that was coming into the city to be quarantined and inspected before even being allowed to dock at the port.

So this was causing tons of delays, delays, tons of complications for merchants, people being sent away.

And with the city's port dealing with all of these crazy challenges and delays and the merchants getting angry, the wagon trade remained the most viable way of getting goods anywhere you needed to go in the South.

The good old Oregon Trail.

The Oregon Trail, which the actual game of the Oregon Trail, I don't know if you guys know it.

I've heard of it. Is it where everyone dies of dysentery?

Yes, exactly. and you could like buy oxen and forge a river so it's some sort of really old and timey Wild West Monopoly yeah pretty much it's a computer game and it was like the earliest of all computer games so it's like that green so it's not a board game kind of screen and we used to play it when we were little and I'm not really sure why like we thought it was such a cool game to be like we didn't have Oregon Trail we're all dying of diarrhea like rock on if it makes you feel better guys um when I was a child instead of playing the Oregon Trail I was playing Planetary Taxi what is that which is an excellent

question an excellent game I think is what it is um it was like one of those really old school pc games probably a bit similar to what you're describing but you were a taxi driver in space oh that's epic that's way better than Oregon Trail and it gets better so people get in to the back your potential customers and they would be like Like, oh, I always get beaten by Farmer John in the fattest pig of the year contest. Take me to the planet where my pig will weigh the most. And then you had to figure out which planet had the greatest gravitational pull and then take him there.

And if you got it right, he tipped you.

See, you were learning things.

You were literally just dying from diarrhea.

What is more American than that?

Dying of diarrhea. Like, wow.

You were traveling space.

face but they were the greatest gravitational they were trying to keep that you know pioneering american spirit alive and well in the next generation that is true i get it i get it you had to fix wagon wheels and shit i was like yeah you went to a general store you were like i would like some grain see yeah you can't let those old traditions you can't die out that pioneer spirit yeah you know let it die of dysentery and that was always the thing if you didn't die of dysentery um then you would go to the river and you were like well let's all take our lives in our hands and every once in a while

you'd get across the river and you were like orgon excuse me they'll yell at us yeah we got yelled at by the actual game oh my god do you guys get yelled at for mispronouncing places can you imagine that all the time i mean no i did not imagine that yeah so what is it oregon it's it's oregon oregon oregon but i grew up calling it Oregon Trail And you referred to Oregon as Oregon When we were little I think it's A regional dialect I think that's just Like Oregon This is something I think about all the time I'm like There's a difference Between Mispronouncing And regional dialect And saying something

In your own accent Exactly So like Americans will call me Hannah Right Like that's not my name My name's Hannah I mean I'm not going to correct you That sounded exactly The same to me though I'm like But is it Hannah How is it meant meant to be said in the middle eastern pronunciation so it's hana short a guys we all sound like we're having breakdowns can we but this is the point like i don't care like just say just have an accent that's fine at this point i've just changed my name to suzy q anon which is my american alias by the way suzy q anon for when she gets randomly selected in every airport

oh no I love it. Massachusetts specifically has the most gnarly names for places.

Oh, yeah. Which we grew up just thinking that was normal, but when people try to say the names, they're like, what is that?

Like Gloucester. I can't say the name of this state.

It is one of the ongoing jokes on Red Handed.

Can I hear you say it?

Massachusetts. Yeah, that's perfect.

There you go. There we go.

go i think i can now see it phonetically as it was spilled out by all of our listeners and i can visually see it so i say it that way you're like hitting each point but that's the problem with most of the cities around here is like phonetically they make literally no sense i do like worcester makes no it looks like that's very english though yeah we have a worcester we've got a gloucester we got a leicester yes we do in fact we have a peabody brilliant my favorite tweet will always be what's the hardest thing you've ever had to tell anybody and people were like oh you know when I had to call my

sister and tell her that our father had passed away.

And somebody just wrote Worcestershire sauce.

Yep, yep, yep. Yep, that's been a hot debate on our show, Worcestershire sauce.

Yeah, Worcestershire sauce.

Yeah. Because that's how you say it.

That's how you say it.

How else would one say it?

I don't know. Worcestershire, Worcester.

People say it. No, prison.

Yeah, truly. That's another very American thing.

We just yell at each other about like saying things for no reason.

Like we just can't let each other say things.

We've been on the receiving end of that.

It's definitely a thing.

Anytime you put your voice anywhere, people are bound to just scream at you.

It's all good. Let's do some more of it.

Yeah, let's keep going.

Let's go. Yeah, you know, so let's go back to the 1800s, which was such a fun time in America.

Let's all get dysentery.

Let's get robbed by a highwayman or a woman.

Meet a pirate. Yeah, meet a...

That sounds kind of cool.

Yeah, you know, if you make it out to tell the tale.

you could like you could yo -ho yo -ho with them absolutely yeah absolutely that's just what you do and I do get through it coke you do so a pirate's life for you there you go stick a lime in it nice there we go we're all so you know here we go so we're we're in on the wagon trade now because that's the only way that we can get anywhere otherwise everything sucks you're gonna get robbed by a pirate you're gonna get delayed at port you know everything's gonna going to suck but even though it was now keeping Charleston's economy afloat it wasn't nearly as efficient as ships were for one horses um

they get tired and they need to sleep they get dysentery they drown in a river if you try to forge it too early I guess I don't even know what the reasoning for drowning in the river in Oregon Trail was it was just like I think just because it was just a crapshoot yeah you don't know how to swim yeah yeah right I'm like who's getting swimming lessons on the Oregon Trail oh if you were in the river you were gone like no one swam there was rapids all the wheels went out and you were like oh well there that goes but yeah that's what happened so horses need to rest they need to eat and while some

traveling merchants had no problem sleeping in their wagon and they could do that without getting robbed or murdered the journey was often hundreds of miles and the driver not to mention any occupants that they had with them would need to find find some kind of shelter at various points along the route, especially for storms, weather, all that good stuff.

This gave rise to, quote, stage taverns or inns known just as houses.

Ah, like a public house.

Exactly, exactly. And those were along the outskirts of major cities where travelers could stop for a night, rest, water their horses, water themselves, you know.

A .k .a. shower. There you go.

But like the shipping industry, the wagon and stage trade came with a ton of fears, not about pirates anymore but now about being robbed or having an entire wagon or coach be stolen right out from under you.

So in the early decades of the 19th century Charleston, South Carolina was not so different from the other colonies around.

It was always walking a line between the pre -revolution wilderness of the past and the industrial socially complicated society that was going to be on its way in the latter half of the 19th century.

But it was ruled by economic opportunity mixed with intense fear of any kind of change.

Sure, sure, sure. So things weren't great.

It was very unstable at that moment.

So let's get to the legend or urban legend of Lavinia Fisher.

So Lavinia and John Fisher, they were married and had lived much of their lives in or around Charleston.

When they were in their mid to late 20s, the couple operated an inn that was referred to two as the Six Mile House, along with what was known, it was on Meeting House Road.

So the name Six Mile House was basically the mile marker that it was on.

Clever. It would indicate to travelers how far you are from the city.

Nice. So other inns had names like Five Mile House, Four Mile House.

I would want to be like One Mile House.

Yeah, yeah. Like we're number one.

That's what I would wouldn't want to do six is like but these houses offered travelers and merchants a place to stop and rest get food water and overnight stay and if they try and as they traveled in charleston to sell their goods or as they traveled out that's where they would stop along this way so travelers leaving the city would be as john ralphio and parks and recreation would say Flush with cash And this made them Pretty easy prey I had to You can never You can't let that around you But this made them Very easy prey For highway men Or in this case Highway women So the legend has it That Lavinia Would lure

in guests With her seductive wiles I mean her name's Lavinia She must be kind of hot It is a hot girl name It really is Lavinia I'm like Like you have to be good looking.

You do. I feel like she was.

Hopefully. Not only would she lure them in with her womanly wiles, but then she would double down and cook them a home cooked meal.

And so would any man's heart, you know.

And then she would sedate them with warm tea.

Oh my God. I mean, I kind of fancy her now.

But unfortunately that warm tea was poison.

There's always a catch. Yeah.

No one's a 10 out of 10.

Yeah. You can't do this with both hands.

It's just something's going to happen.

We'll knock off like two points.

She still sounds great, to be honest. She's a 10, but she will poison you.

Take it or leave it, boys.

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I am absolutely obsessed with the sweet treat after dinner and my favorite sweet treat right now is my mochi.

It's mine, not yours.

Just kidding. You can have some too.

This is a cool creamy scoop of ice cream wrapped in a soft chewy dough.

It's like a sweet little ice cream dumpling or ravioli.

I'm obsessed. It's pillowy.

It's satisfying. I feel indulged.

I just love it so much. I really am obsessed with the strawberry flavor right now.

My mochi is only around 70 calories per piece, which like, hello, that's it's amazing.

My mochi is gluten -free, and each box has six perfectly portioned mochi snacks.

Do I eat two a night?

Yeah, yeah, I do because they're that good.

And guess what? My mochi is the number one mochi ice cream in the U .S. of A.

The strawberry flavor is bursting with fresh picked fruit flavor that tastes incredibly refreshing.

I love, love, love them after dinner.

This August, look for the purple box of my mochi ice cream at your local grocery store and feel joyfully chill with the coolest treat around, my mochi.

Now, some say once their victim was unconscious or asleep, John would sneak into the room, he would rob them, and he would murder them.

But then it's said that he, quote, butchered them and disposed of their bodies in their cellar.

Oh, very bloody benders.

Thank you, I bring them up actually.

You're welcome. In the next paragraph.

Okay. But there are some variations in this story Though another slight variation is that Once they were definitely Unconscious Lavinia would open a Trap door beneath the victim And they would drop into the basement Which I like very much And that's where they would be ultimately Murdered and in some versions They even say that beneath that trap door Lavinia herself which I'm like Whoa Lavinia had positioned Spikes at the bottom From the bottom of a pit, which impaled the victims as they landed.

Now she should miss Trunchbull.

I'm saying that's the ultimate chokie.

Yeah. And they're already dead when they get spiked.

So it's just for the fun of it.

Just for the fun of it.

Just so she can like see.

It is very Bloody Vendors, because we're going to get into them.

And they did do that shit just for the fun of it.

So I wonder if that got tainted, like a little bit of Bloody Vendors got mixed in with this story.

We do that a lot. But John and Lavinia were said to have, quote, a great number of skeletons found in the cellar of Six Mile House.

Later it was said that they had a cellar full of human bones.

So it's getting bigger and bigger as we go.

It's like maybe one and then it's like a whole ass cellar of human bones.

I love it. It starts vague.

It just gets bigger.

It's like maybe she just robbed people.

A great many. And it's like, no, she was impaling them on spice into her kitchen.

It's just someone telling a story in one of those houses.

and they're like i'm not getting the reaction i need nobody cares there was spikes listen up right under our feet like that i would have done that and she was a stone cold hottie i mean her name's lavinia she's gonna make a tea she's gonna cook you dinner so you choose whether you're coming in but like we just mentioned a bunch of times it is very reminiscent of the bloody benders they were we actually covered the bloody benders a long time i'm actually going to redo that one yeah that's one of those that i remember doing in our living room we have a few of those yeah we know the feeling well

yeah i just end up being like gonna take that one back and redo that better because yeah it's a gnarly story and i think we could definitely i think it was only like an hour -long episode maybe that we did on it yeah if i think this could be like several episodes of the bloody venders now i'm like what was i doing Yeah, they were an American family Of murderers, like an actual family Of just straight up serial killers Like kids and all And it's real I've heard of this but we've never covered it But it kind of reminds me of like There's lots of fake stories like that in the UK There's the Sauny

Bean clan That sounds familiar In Scotland, they were kind of the inspiration For like the Hills Have Eyes Yeah, that makes sense So they were like meant to be in Scotland this family of like cannibalistic incestuous people living in these caves like attacking people that walk past them and cannibalising them, the kids were there all sorts of grisly stuff, if you look it up it is dark and then you realise actually it was just anti -Scottish English propaganda Are you serious?

It's just these Scottish people living in caves They're disgusting over there They're like, they are having sex with each other and they will eat you absolutely true don't look further into it just listen to what i'm saying avoid the caves no we definitely have a few of those like that you know are fake that are like this whole family of cannibals and you're like no but the bloody benders that's for real they were real they really did it and it was in the early 1870s and they had it was in kansas and they had which like it kind of fits like at that time in kansas like yeah like at that time like

frontier family we're gonna gonna murder people like everyone was probably mad there at 1870 but they had like a bed and breakfast quotations that they would lure people into and then brutally murder them and they had a trap door that led into their cellar and they would position the victim sitting over the trap door and then i think it was like it it really is reminiscent of it because the wife would like They kind of distract whoever the victim was.

And then the husband or one of the sons would come up behind them, slit their throat or hit them on the head with a hammer.

And then boom, they would go on into the trap door.

Oh, wow. And often they would be robbed of whatever they had on them.

That was usually because they would lure like wealthy people in that were like traveling through.

But sometimes they would just do it for the thrill of it.

Like they would not get a wealthy person.

They were like, well, we're just bored.

I was literally thinking that there's tornadoes.

Yeah. Kansas, there was a dust bowl.

Yeah. Was that the dust bowl?

Sure. Totally. Why not?

We're educated. It's a bowl of dust. I know it.

We know what happened.

But they were real.

They were able to confirm all the deaths.

They were able, like people who did escape the bloody vendors with their lives were able to be like, oh yeah, they tried to hit me in the head with a hammer.

And I saw a trap door.

Like they were able to be like, yeah, that's literally it.

So this definitely has a little bit of that infused in it.

And since it's around the 1800s, it's like I think maybe it kind of layered on top of each other.

And because Lavinia is a woman and there was a woman in the bloody benders, I think they were like, let's have another one of those.

Redo. Can't just have one.

But in early tellings of this story, John and Lavinia Fisher are described as, quote, pleasing in appearance.

OK. You gotta be. You gotta be.

You know John and Lavinia?

Yeah. I felt like they were in it couple.

For sure. They are.

And they knew how to give the weary traveler such a welcome as made him feel the inn was more like a home than a public resort.

Was it the trap door that made it feel homey?

Yes, I think it was the spikes that you went, no, it just feels like home.

Except the ambiance of it all.

It was the lovely rug over the trap door and the spikes.

But the fishers weren't only praised for their resort, their loveliness, but also for their food, which was apparently described as excellent fare for man and beast. Oh, wow.

So that's all I'm going to give to your dog.

I always want to hear about my cooking.

Whenever my husband's like, this is delicious.

I'm like, what a beast. Can we get a beast?

This isn't enough. But later, however, the entire area around Six Mile House is described as a haven for quote gangs of white desperadoes who occupied certain houses and infested the roads leading to the city white desperadoes i'm just picturing that i know but it is said that travelers passed these houses with fear and trembling oh no because it was just bad guys i hate that um and they more and the more dreaded than any of the other of these haunts was known a six mile house occupied Occupied by John Fisher and Lavinia.

So the legend tells listeners that the robberies and missing travelers went on for more than a year, until finally the bandits were located in the neighborhood of Five and Six Mile Houses, then traced to the houses themselves, and the situation came to head when a young man, hatless and coatless.

Oh, no. Excuse me. How are you meant to tell if he's a good guy or a bad guy?

He hasn't got a hat on.

If you are hatless and coatless.

And coatless. Exactly.

It's quite hot in Charleston, though, isn't it?

I know, it is. Wicked.

Wicked. Almost as hot as in this room.

So you have shame. Can you feel it?

But it's like if I saw him hatless and coatless, I'd just be like, well, it's warm.

Yeah, right. Back then, they were like, you are either a victim of a crime, or you are in desperado.

I don't know. There's nothing in between.

And he was riding into town hatless and coatless.

How dare he? How dare he?

Right? How dare he?

And he was frantically seeking the sheriff.

So the man told authorities that he had been attacked.

Oh, no. And that those who had set upon him, he said, were no less persons than the man and woman who kept Six Mile House.

I don't know if you remember, but that is John and Lavinia's business.

A likely story. I feel like this is just a cover up because he's turned up drastically underdressed to this town.

And he's like, oh, I was robbed.

I have to explain this.

So the man says He claims That he had seen The fishers On the previous night Going through His belongings And he had heard Them make mention Of having to Attend to him The following morning So he got out of there Which I think Was a little hasty Because they do Run a bed and breakfast So if they were like We should attend To our guest tomorrow He's like They're gonna murder me He caught a vibe But it's either A really good thing Or a really bad thing I know Maybe he just has A better intuition Than I do Trust your gut They're going to give me a continental breakfast. It's nice of them.

I know. If there's the promise of breakfast, you're going to stick around.

Yeah, I'm not leaving, so I'm going to fight through it if there's breakfast involved.

We spent all day yesterday telling people to trust their gut on the episode.

Today, you're like, I don't know about that.

Today, I'm like, except if there's breakfast. Not continental, though.

That's not good enough.

It's really not. A cooked breakfast. Comade.

Exactly. If I can have it, like, in bed.

Sure, sure, sure. On a nice tray.

On a tray. With a trapdoor under it.

With a trapdoor. With some fresh juice.

Even if there's spikes, as long as I can have, like, buttermilk pancakes.

Delightful. Sitting in bed.

Yeah, right before you die.

Yeah, that's all I need.

Yeeted into the trapdoor.

That's all that I need.

So the sheriff went to Six Mile House that day, and he drove the band of robbers out, including John and Lavinia Fisher.

And he left a man on site to ensure that these bandits did not return.

So he was just like, get out of your own house.

And this guy was going to stay here and make sure that you don't.

And when they did, the man went for the law again because they came back.

They were like, you left one guy.

And like many people.

And John Fisher. You left one guy.

We're coming back in.

So he went back to the sheriff again, who at this time finally apprehended the entire gang and confiscated 10 muskets, some pistols, knives, and a large canister of powder from the house.

A large canister of powder.

Was it powdered sugar for pancakes?

No, that's the question.

I don't think so. They don't specify.

That was going in the tea.

So the Fishers were found guilty of highway robbery, and they were sentenced to hang.

This escalated so quickly.

It did. It definitely did.

I feel like there was a lot of buildup to this, that the sheriff wasn't taking any notice of anything that was going on at Six Mile House, and then suddenly they're like, we need to hang them.

Yeah, suddenly. That's another part of this that is very, especially old -timey American, which was just like hang them you should die but even just being a hangman a highwayman was a hangable event yeah where I went to school there's like a little like a tiny little pyramid in the middle of a field and it marks the last highwayman to ever be hanged really yeah oh that's so interesting it's in Hamahamstead oh that's so wild that's crazy the only reason to go to Hamahamstead there's an episode where it was voted Britain's ugliest town but there is a very good water park yes exactly so let's go guys

let's go you can see the historical of it all and then go for the aqua I just want to see that little pyramid it's like this big and it's just in the middle of a field oh my god that's so wild that is cool those kind of things are always crazy to me like in Salem we have all those little memorials and they're always like these small little things that are like this gnarly thing happened here and that's all you have I'm like what?

no it's true but we're we're full of them as you guys must be in Boston because like we've been going around and we're like it's like the first place that feels like really really historic Boston's historical as fuck and I used to work where I used to work in London it was like in a really boring part I used to work near St Catherine's Dock but I'd get off the tube and walk to my office and it was past like what was it Tower of London Tower of London and there's just a sign on my way to work that'd be like this is where Amberlynn was beheaded stop and then all these tourists just take the pictures

of it and I'm like I'm just trying to get past what my parents are doing excuse me but this is where Amber Amber but this is where Amberlynn was beheaded that is wild they also have I don't know how familiar you are with the cinematic masterpiece Pocahontas 2 actually a weirdly pretty familiar her kids love that movie so you know like when they go to town they go through Tracer's Gate and they're on the little boat so like Tracer's Gate is still there so you just walk right past it and it's just the gate on the Thames and it just says traitor's gate above it I think you guys should come to London and we'll

just take you on a walking tour it's on the bucket list I'm dying we will do this in a hot studio there as well and we'll take you on a walking tour we did a five -parter on Jack the Ripper and I was like entrenched in it I was like I have to go she's dying to go to my chapel we're both East London as well we're East London girls okay we'll talk about this we're going to do it we're going to do it i'm solving that case let's go i'm telling you that's my lifelong ambition it's one of the royals right to buy us from ghost are going to solve it it is hot in here oh god what have i done so yeah the fishers

were found guilty of highway robbery they were sentenced to hang they sat in their cells for nearly a year waiting on a pardon for their execution and apparently when john was visited by a local priest he was very contrite He wanted his soul to be saved.

But Lavinia, she had no interest in salvation.

She really only cared about being pardoned.

It never came. When the day finally came, John begged his wife to make peace with her God, but she absolutely refused.

To not one word of religious instruction would she listen.

That's like kind of badass.

Especially back then.

I feel like especially back then, that was straight up rebellion.

Now, when their execution finally arrived, Apparently Lavinia had to be dragged from her cell while she shrieked and raved like, quote, one insane.

Was she insane or was she just about to be hanged in front of a crowd?

You decide. I don't know.

I might shriek as well.

Yeah, maybe. I don't think a lot of us could be like stoic in that moment.

But some say Lavinia and her husband were dressed in white outfits as they made their way to the gallows, like matching white outfits.

While other variations insist that Lavinia was wearing her wedding dress.

No, she wasn't. No, she was not.

And when she finally reached the gallows, Lavinia blurted out profanities from the gallows, which I think is badass.

And before famously shouting, if you leave, if you have a message you want to send to hell, give it to me.

Oh, Lavinia. You just want like a guitar riff.

I was like, for real, she's going on tour after this.

Some say Lavinia even cheated the hangman at one moment by jumping from the platform before being wrestled back into position just above her own trapdoor and then hanged with John.

So to this day, it's said that Lavinia's ghost haunts the grounds that once held the old city jail where she was held for nearly a year before her execution.

others say she haunts Charleston's Unitarian Cemetery and whatever the case her spirit is believed to still quote roam and haunt the last areas she knew and where she felt most unsettled in her life so that's the story but here's the real story of what happened she was a nice lady Lavinia was a school teacher she retired at the age of 30 at the age of 30 Yes, you know, back then.

Oh, yeah, that's true.

So not a lot is really known about the Fishers before their arrest in actuality.

But for all intents and purposes, their story begins in the winter of 1819.

In response to the rise in highwaymen robbing people, you know, that was happening all the damn time.

There were lynch mobs that were formed and they were basically the one bringing justice outside of the law to these random highwaymen.

Of course, we know this was often a legit act of terrorism.

masked as justice. So frustrated by the ongoing attacks on travelers and merchants on Meeting House Road, on February 16, 1819, a heavily armed mob assembled and rode from Charleston in the direction of Five Mile House.

Oh, damn. They had received word that a gang of thieves, who was responsible for a string of highway robberies near Ashley Ferry, had holed up at one of the houses, and they were determined to smoke them out and bring them to justice.

According to author Bruce Orr, which we will make sure we give a little reference in the show notes for his book, the mob allegedly had permission from the owners of several small houses in the area to proceed as they saw fit.

Which I don't know if I believe that.

I was gonna say, I doubt that.

They're like, they said it was fine if we murdered these people, okay?

They said to do whatever we wanted while we were here.

That house said it was fine if we lit this one on fire, so So talk to someone else.

I don't know. Now, among the many obvious problems with mob justice is that lynch mobs tend to lack information and objectivity.

This is a really reasonable lynch mob.

And we have really thought out opinions.

We have cited sources of what happened.

Instead, they really only operate on reactionary emotions and just collective outrage.

That'll do it. That's usually the case.

And no one's taking a step back and really thinking in these cases.

So in the case of the attacks along Meeting House Road, none of the victims who reported being attacked or robbed could actually identify any of their attackers.

So when the mob arrived at Five Mile House, they had no idea who they were looking for.

They were just going in there being like, I guess we just take everyone in the house.

Good to get swept up before you know what's happening.

It's always good to act first and then go, whoops, later.

You don't want to be the last person joining the mob.

then it just seems like you jumped on the bandwagon precisely they're working off the like mantra of like you ask for forgiveness not permission so like we'll just later we'll deal with it it's fine my favorite kind of people you know yeah i'm not asking so nevertheless when they entered the inn the mob found a small group of individuals assembled inside and regardless of whether they were the actual aggressors or robbers the group was instructed to grab whatever personal belongings they had near them and get the hell out of the house immediately likely pretty confused yeah startled by the appearance

of a giant violent mob at their house the group of five mile house um protested a little bit and they resisted a little bit because they were like what the fuck is happening right now so the mob was like okay and they just lit the building on fire oh shit they're like we gave you you a chance burned to the ground in a very small period of time people got out but they burnt it to the ground with people in it is this one lavinia's house no this is next to lavinia you know those photos sitting in your phone the ones that make you smile every time you scroll past them well at smallwoodhome .com they

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so the mob was like well that worked really well because now the house everybody got out so they were like all right so they moved a little further up the road hoping to dole out some justice to six mile house as well here we go so the proprietors of six mile house and the the visitors of six mile house actually they actually listened and complied you would i'm wondering if they saw like i don't know the smoke yeah five mile house maybe smelled a little something or maybe it was the actual lynch mob that was at their door that they were like we should leave let's just leave combination plateau

figure yeah you know there you go this is what this was smart they took context clues they put their problem solving and they were like Like, this is going to end badly for us.

We should leave. Yeah.

So they got out. Either way, they left. And to make sure they didn't return, they did that old standby where they just leave one guy standing at the door to keep the entire house out.

The entire lynch mob, too.

Yeah, exactly. It's worked well in the past. It has, obviously.

And it works for a six -mile house.

So they left a guy named David Ross at Six Mile House, and they said, don't let them back in.

I don't know if I trust him.

I don't know about David Ross.

No. I feel bad for David Ross.

I don't know if I would pick like David no I feel like I could overpower David Ross I don't know what name I would choose I've been thinking about names a lot while we've been talking about this I feel like there are hot guy names there are like strong names what's the hottest hot guy name if it's not John I was going to say because I'm partial to a job a partial to a job that's my dad's name Andrew personally Andrew is a great name I'm a little biased Do you know what drew it all?

Marrying one in October?

No, no, no, never that.

But I would say hot guy names.

Hot guy names. I don't know.

Most guys are not that hot.

I don't know. I've always thought maybe it's because of the Little Mermaid.

Is his name Eric? Eric?

Are you kidding? Eric.

I know, he's such a prick in hindsight.

He is such a prick.

No. What was... Oh my goddesses Oh John John John Smith It always cuts back to John And then John Rolfe There you go She I'm a princess And the frog Girlie And Naveen Naveen Naveen is a hot one Naveen is a hot one Yeah yeah You can have that But I would say The hottest Who's the hottest Disney prince Obviously General Shang Oh yes Oh Here we go It's a conversation Hotest hot boy name Shang We've figured it out We've cracked the code We do And actually Actually, while we're on tour, people ask us, you know, what are your like pre -show rituals?

Our only pre -show ritual, apart from watching 90 Day Fiancé in our dressing rooms, is listening to Mulan, I'll Make a Man Out of You.

Oh my God, incredible.

Hell yes. You guys can have it.

I need that. We're swapping hats here.

Wow, because that'll get you fired up.

We save it for occasions where we need to get especially hyped.

There you go. That's genius.

One of my kids especially, one of my twins is obsessed with Mulan.

thanks to me it's my favorite it's my favorite it's my favorite disney movie loves that song and when she was like two she used to be like let's get down to business then it gets like super like not feminist at all did they give us daughters and like yeah they did they did give you daughters gives a fuck what you asked for.

Why did she do that while you sang it?

She's fighting it. She's fighting it.

Right, right, exactly.

She's a badass. That's why we love Princess and the Frog in our house, too, because, like, she's the best. Tiana's like, I'm opening up a restaurant.

Fuck all y 'all. I'm like, yes.

Hell yeah. Peña anyone?

I love her. So, yes.

So, David Ross. David is not, to me, the guy I would leave. I don't know why.

I know what you mean If there was a John around I'd be like John stay over there Are there any John's here We need a John I feel like it's like a A little solid Not Phil but Philip William I would trust a William Harry Never trust a Harry We don't trust a Harry Except Harry Styles Oh no even him you know I was like do we trust here I feel like that's a story for a later time after don't worry darling I think his name was John Jack so kind of yeah I don't trust him yeah so there's that well those are names well they should have left Shang instead they left David told him you let us know if anyone

returns which this was kind of my favorite thing because it's instruct us or alert us if somebody returns.

And it's like, they didn't have a cell phone or a walkie -talkie, so it's like jump on your horse and ride miles into town to be like, hey, they're there.

They came back. It's like, I don't think that's going to help.

But sometime later, David Ross returned to Charleston pretty frantically because he was like, shit, I have to alert you.

He was asking for the sheriff, and in his sworn testimony later, Ross said he was the one that was hatless and coatless not him immediate red flag I'm saying he said that shortly after 9pm a man named William Hayward one of the men who'd been forced out of Six Mile House by the mob he had returned to the inn and he had cursed him collared him violently and pushed him out how dare he so William but like how dare he because William's like this is my fucking house like get out so dare he so he came in and he collared that guy out and he was like David get out of here I'm coming back to my house So he

did And then he slammed the door in his face He was very careful to say that That's his door Slammed the door in his face Yeah So when David Ross went back into the house And I love this because he's like David goes into the house that doesn't belong to him That he was just thrown out of He goes back in and he asks Hayward Hey, can I get a couple of my things that I had here?

No, get out of here Before I leave And Hayward apparently put his hands into his bosom And said you damned infernal rascal If you lay your hand on anything I will blow your brains out I am only going to call people damned Infernal rascals But you have to touch their bosom No I don't know about that That's where I draw the line You have to put your hand into his bosom I don't know about all that Not just on Into Enter the bosom How do you become one with someone's bosom In that moment Full send.

I mean, we'll find out when you eventually do it.

I'll let you guys go.

Because you are going to do it.

But after being rebuffed by Hayward a second time, Ross was surprised to find that more of the people from Six Mile House were now returning and were like, we're just going to come back into our house.

Specifically, John and Lavinia Fisher, as well as two other men that Ross didn't recognize.

So Ross claimed that at that point, Lavinia Fisher, quote, Lavinia herself, laid violent hands upon him, choked him she said catch these hands they're coming for your pussy she came for his pussy she choked him and then pushed his head through a glass window shit Lavinia she's got no chill does not fuck around she has no chill but that's what happens who dares you what's that like horribly offensive chart that people post on Twitter where they're like how hot she is versus how crazy she is Lavinia's a 10 she's a 10 on both 10 10 it's true She's going to throw your head through a glass window.

But the Six Mile House gang continued beating Ross with their fists and with loaded whips.

What's a loaded whip?

Which I had no idea what a loaded whip was because a whip, I'm like, what?

I looked it up and apparently loaded whips were shot loaded and it would make them heavier and more dangerous.

Ouch. So one end of the whip was, it was essentially like putting rocks in a sock and beating someone with it, but with a whip.

I see. So it would cause a lot of damage.

I was trying to think of some sort of joke like with loaded potato skins.

But then I just got hungry because I've only had three raisins today.

Oh, no. Now that you said potato skins, I'm like, yeah.

Mediterranean platter.

We want potato skins.

Yeah. Now I want potato skins.

I do, too. I'm going to eat those later.

Oh, now I'm thinking of food.

I just thought of Taco Bell real quick.

Okay, we're moving on.

We're moving on. Thought about it.

Passing thoughts. It was only after they had beaten the crap out of David Ross with their hands and with loaded whips and that Lavinia had choked him and thrown him through a clay glass window.

It was only after this that he was able to get through that window and just take a run into the woods.

That man was running for his life.

He fucked around and he found out.

But he wasn't even done being fucked around with because he ran into the woods.

he reached the cover of the tree line and they started firing guns at him on the tree line.

And this is the real story.

Like the other one was like the urban line.

This is the real thing.

So he managed to make it back to a main road and was crossing Frighteous Bridge.

Don't know what that is but I keep thinking of like Righteous.

Righteous Bridge. Apparently it was just outside of proper Charleston.

And that's when he spotted the entire gang pursuing him still.

And Lavinia shouted, you you damned infernal rascal.

Yeah, she did. If ever I catch you, I will give you a hundred lashes.

I love her a lot. Which also makes me think, I'm like, was Lavinia the one with the loaded whip?

Yes. That sounds like it.

Yeah, I mean, maybe Six Mile House is some sort of BDSM dungeon situation.

I'm like, what's going on in there?

Not to keep shame for Lavinia, but what's happening?

Yeah, but there's consent involved.

Yeah, but maybe it is.

Maybe this is all just some really elaborate role play situation between Lavinia and our what's his name the running away man David Dasha and somebody just saw it all happening and then wrote a really loaded piece about how she was some sort of highway woman but actually she was just running some sort of innocent PDSM dungeon instead she was just like a really professional dominatrix and she just stuck to the plot line hell yeah she was like you didn't say a safe word and he's running away because he wants it to end but he can't remember the safe word the safe word is shang full circle it was a hard

one to remember you know she's like I haven't seen that movie it hasn't come out yet damn it so yeah she's she also used the damned infernal rascal which I'm sure is like the asshole of that day yeah like you know like everyone was just like oh you're such a damned infernal rascal which doesn't have the same feel like you're an asshole doesn't pack the same punch yeah but yeah she's gonna give him a hundred lashes if he doesn't or if she catches him But the group must have kind of given up the chase at some point.

You didn't catch him because Ross managed to make it safely back into Charleston that evening to cry in front of the sheriff and be like, why did you leave me in front of that house?

What a baby. Meanwhile, it was David.

You left David. What do you expect?

That was your own doing.

Eow David. Eow David.

So meanwhile, a merchant by the name of John Peoples.

Which I love that name.

Fun. Peoples. He was headed out of the city.

My thing just went into black.

Okay. Towards Meeting House Road.

road. And when he reached Six Mile House, John Peoples stopped at the end.

This was after all of this.

It was around 11 p .m. and he was just going to rest and water his horse.

So, you know, as one does.

So once he stopped at the end, he alleged that he and his young companion, who was a young boy, I don't know if it was his son or what, they don't say, they were attacked and robbed by multiple people at Six Mile House.

In his official affidavit, he claims that as he was When he was arguing with his companion over who would get the water bucket for the horses, nine or ten persons, among them a tall, stout woman, came out of the same house.

That was Lavinia. They were armed with clubs, guns, and pistols and immediately made a violent assault on them.

So according to peoples, the woman among them was the most vicious of all of them.

That's Lavinia. It was active in beating him, cutting him over the head and eyes with a stick.

Okay, so calm down, Lavinia.

Lavinia is... she needs to talk to someone.

She does. She's like, this is what you paid for.

I know, she's like, what?

It's part of the whole thing.

The safe word. But nobody can remember Shang.

But John Peoples and his companion were eventually able to escape the gang and made their way back to the road.

I love that they were just attacked while they were watering their horse, and they're like, ah!

And they just, like, run away.

Life was hard back then.

We think we have it bad now.

Try to water your horse these days.

Just stopping at an inn.

But although he wasn't aware of it in that moment, John Peoples was pursued by two of the men in the gang to the road.

He just didn't know it.

And these two men rode up on him and the boy who was with him, and they brandished pistols and demanded that they hand over any money or valuables that they had.

After searching the man and the boy, the bandits took his pocketbook, and it contained roughly $40.

which is a pretty good hall back then and turned back in the direction of six mile house so meanwhile john peoples and this boy raced back to charleston and immediately reported the attack to authorities although he couldn't positively identify each member of the gang right then and there john peoples quote had just cause to believe that among them was william hayward john fisher and his wife lavinia fisher another man named joseph roberts and another man named John Andrews.

Lots of Johns, lots of Josephs.

That's what we like to hear.

So author Bruce Orr points out that among the more interesting aspects of the John Peoples affidavit is that the document looks like it was written in the handwriting of a lot of different people.

So that's weird. And then various different points in the affidavit, his name is spelled Peoples like P -E -O -P -L -E -S and Peoples P -E -E -P -L -E -S.

I wonder why. So people think this means one, at least another person was involved in writing that description of events, but they're not sure why.

But it's also possible when you really think of history and reality in that time, he might have not had an ability to read and write, so they might have had to have somebody documenting his report.

True. Still interesting.

He also notes that the list appears to have been added to people's affidavit likely after it had been filed, And it's a list of the people they think were in Six Mile House.

And that was John Fisher, Lavinia Fisher, William Hayward, Joseph Roberts, William Andrews, Seth Young.

Which I didn't see a Seth in there.

No, I never saw a Seth coming.

Never saw that coming.

No, it's like when you watch Game of Thrones and you're just like, why is he called Jamie?

Thank you. You're like, why is he called Rob?

Rob. It's Rob. Tyrion.

And Rob. Tyrion, Rob.

Cersei, you know, like all these really cool.

And Jamie. Daenerys.

Yup. and it's like no just Rob I do love Rob though he's my favourite so yeah man fuck actually you know what fuck John fuck John thank you I don't get enough of that I'm a Rob girl yeah I mean little hot headed little little bit think about it think about what you're doing Rob we really loved it I don't know why such a Rob such a Rob just Rob being Rob the Red Wedding was like a real dark moment it was a dark moment let's not upset ourselves again yeah let's not go there That was rough.

When he says mother.

No, no. Don't go there.

Don't go there, we said.

I just saw it in my head.

But it's the way he says it.

Don't go there. And if anyone's complaining about spoilers, that show's like 10 years old.

Yeah. Stop it. Stop it.

All I said was he said mother.

Okay. He did love his mom.

So we got a Seth. Which is interesting because we got John, William, Joseph, William, James, John, James, Seth.

Okay. There he is. Seth does not show up again, I don't think.

Pour one out for Seth.

Yeah, pour one out for him.

So with sworn affidavits from two victims and witnesses, Sheriff Cleary quickly assembled a huge posse of police officers and vigilantes on February 19, 1819.

That's when the group headed out to Six Mile House, and when they arrived at the end, they surrounded the place, demanded everyone surrender immediately, and that's when they basically were able to search Six Mile House, and they found that large storage of weapons and powder, So that was all true.

So the gang definitely had the means to resist them.

But I don't know why they decided not to.

I don't know if it was they decided it was too big of a posse to overwhelm.

Or John Fisher, there is one like set of tales, and I kind of believe it because I feel like John Fisher was like a good husband.

Yeah, he's a John. He's a John.

You know, we love a John.

We do. And John Fisher apparently said that he opted to surrender rather than risk injury or death to his wife.

Oh, I believe that.

So he did that for Lavinia, which in the power couple that is John and Lavinia, I feel like that is right.

Believable. Whatever their reason was, they were arrested without a fight, and the sheriff successfully did get John and Lavinia.

They also got James McElroy.

They did get Seth Young, but I don't know if he ever comes up again.

And they got somebody, James Howard. word. So evidence taken from the home.

And this does come back.

So don't worry, I'm not just randomly saying it was a large cow hide.

But they didn't own any cows.

So they were like, where the hell did this come from?

Yeah, it was like a recent cow hide.

And they were like, what's this about?

So by the time the gang members were being loaded into the wagon, the scene had attracted a big crowd, obviously, because I always love that these old timey cases where it's like this huge crime scene and all these people are just walking through it.

They're They're like, whoa, look at that blood.

It's like, ooh, this is nuts.

Wow. Let's just fight this.

I wish you had just seen Elena act that out if you're listening.

They're all just taking pieces of skull fragments off the floor and being like, wow, this was great.

Happy Sunday. Thanks for having us.

Yeah, just walking through it.

So a man named Stephen Lacoste, who was a neighbor of Six Mile House, went in there.

And he saw this cow hide.

And he said, motherfuckers, that's my cow.

Oh, no. And my cow had gone missing.

Oh, no. So they had stolen this man's cow.

And killed it. That's a hang -up offense, for sure.

That's shitty. I was like, damn.

Stealing a cow, that's like, justice for Stephen.

That's big business about them.

I'm saying. Justice for Stephen.

Not cool. Or is that the horse's name?

Stephen. So rather than leaving the scene as it was or coming back later to search it more, they just set it on fire.

Easy. What else are you going to do?

That seemed to be working well for them.

So it was burned to the ground.

And a few days after their arrest, or a somewhat more thorough search of the grounds around the area was made, which I love that they burned the place down and they were like, we should go back there and see if there's any evidence.

It's really cleared out all the clutter, by the way.

Yeah, it really took care of it.

We made it easier. Made it sanitary.

And at least two bodies were indeed found buried near the house, like right on the property.

One was the body of a male who'd been shot, and the other was the skeletal remains of a woman who'd been buried in an unmarked grave at least two years earlier.

either of them were ever identified oh wow oh good there was at least two there and the members of this six mile house gang were taken to the city jail which was apparently only a small step up from like medieval dungeons there was no running water there was no bed or toilet instead there was a pile of wood chips where they were like that's your bed and your toilet oh wow so have fun with that and apparently if you were a violent offender you were just shackled to a steel ring that was in the middle of the floor.

And if you stepped out of line, you got the shit kicked out of you.

So that's fun. And they said that it was also not unusual for a corpse to reach an advanced state of decomposition before being removed from a cell.

So you don't want to go any sooner.

You don't want to go to the city jail.

So at the time of John and Lavinia's arrest, South Carolina still operated under a colonial justice system.

So this system was based on a mix of biblical edicts and laws imposed by the British crown no thanks so as such the crimes of which the gang were accused highway robbery were considered a capital offense and that made all members eligible for the death penalty so by February 22nd the sheriff had also arrested gang member James Starrett which would bring the total arrested to seven some more arrests would would come later.

By the end of the week, I think there was about nine people that were arrested from that house that were in the gang.

And once they'd all been rounded up, they were all brought before John Peebles, and he identified them all as the ones who violently attacked them and robbed them.

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So, looking at their previous crimes that they've been punished for, both John and Lavinia had previously been arrested for theft, which, at least for John, he had received 30 lashes for it.

James Starrett had also been convicted of theft on one occasion, and he had been branded as his punishment.

Oh, wow. And Joseph Roberts had had a piece of his ear chopped off for theft as well.

I'm still not totally convinced these people weren't just taking part in some elaborate BDSM situation.

They all loved it. It's sounding more and more of a key case.

It really is. To be quite honest. On March 23rd, 1819, John and Lavinia, as well as William Hayward and Joseph Roberts, were brought before Judge Holl Bay.

And they were going to determine whether there was enough evidence to convict them.

At least of assaulting David Ross.

Because remember David?

Poor Shang. We remember David.

The judge said there was enough evidence and he set bond for all the individual members.

But only Hayward and Roberts managed to post bail.

So Roberts got out, but he didn't do well with his immediate freedom because two days later he was again arrested for threatening the life of a local butcher.

The same butcher that the gang sold the meat that belonged to the cow found in the L building at Six Mile House that belonged to the neighbor they had the cow hide for.

Full freaking circle.

That's so satisfying.

I'm so impressed with how you did that all in a row.

I was just really intense on that subject.

I was like, that's really mean that you stole his cow and then you killed it and you sold its meat and you kept its hide.

That's not cool. So the trial began on May 10th, 1819, and that's where John, Lavinia, William, Joseph and James were all indicted for assault with intent to murder David Ross.

The attorney general's documents said the gang, quote, were said to have wielded, pointed and fired a loaded weapon at David Ross with the intent to kill him.

I agree. By the time the hearing concluded on the 27th, through various methods, a lot of the gang either skipped town, were either to escape or somehow got off the indictment.

I'm not really sure how.

It left really only John and Lavinia on the hook for the whole crime.

Excellent. So the trial was drawing huge crowds and the couple was found guilty on both assaults with intent to murder and common assaults on David Ross.

Damn. So on June 2nd, they were brought before Judge Charles Jones -Colcock for sentencing.

Pause for reaction.

However, the sentencing part then got moved to the Constitutional Court at the last second.

This is so complicated.

So now it was going to be held and it wasn't going to be held until the conclusion of the trial.

And unfortunately for John and Lavinia, the Constitutional Court wouldn't be back in session until January.

And it was June. So the couple was going to be held at the city jail where you pee, where you sleep, and you might die and rot in there.

And this had been going on like almost a year at this point.

Yeah. And in the meantime, William Hayward had been recaptured in South Carolina.

And because he was tried and convicted in absentia, so while he wasn't there, he was returned to Charleston to await with the Fishers.

So the gang's all getting back together, you know, which is nice.

Reunited. And as a husband and wife, John and Lavinia were held in the same cell, so that's nice.

Sweet, precious. But they were on the ground floor initially, and that was like the really bad floor to be on.

Is everything dripping down to you?

It's all dripping. There's no ventilation.

It's just not good.

We don't love. So Lavinia used her wiles to get them moved to the debtor's section of the prison, which was on a higher floor.

The cells were much bigger.

Not a lot of infectious diseases floating around.

So they were allowed to do that.

And weirdly, the debtor's section was also where Joseph Roberts, another member of the gang, was serving his sentence for threatening the butcher.

So they were all reunited again in the cell.

So on the evening of September 13th, John and Joseph actually managed to dig a hole under the wall of one of the cell windows large enough for them to fit through.

And using a rope made of blankets they tied together, they climbed down the wall.

Joseph Roberts went out, and then he got there.

John was going down and the blanket rope snapped.

So he fell 20 feet to the ground below.

And now Lavinia couldn't escape.

So she's just sitting there with a giant hole in the wall.

She's like, I actually don't know anything about this.

She's like, you want to go with the ladies first. So they were like, oh, no, that sucks.

And then they just ran away.

No one noticed until the next morning.

That's when the governor issued a proclamation offering a $500 reward for their recapture.

The sheriff didn't have to look very far.

They weren't really smart.

I don't think this was really going well.

And again, this is another case of John being a really good husband.

Even though he left Lavinia.

Well, don't you worry, though.

Because their original plan was to escape and travel by boat to Cuba, obviously.

But John refused to leave Lavinia behind.

So he and Roberts had stayed close to the jail to try to come up with a plan for how to get Lavinia out.

Okay, fine. Love. So he got himself caught that way.

A few days after their escape, they were visiting a local grocer, which I'm also like, guys, what are you doing?

Hungry. You're wanted convicts.

The local grocer was like, hi, John and Rob.

Aren't you supposed to be in jail?

He immediately called Sheriff Cleary and was like, hi, I have them here.

what a rat so on the evening of September 16th the sheriff found them hiding under an overturned boat which is similar to how they found the Boston bomber that was my immediate thought they found him in a boat yeah that they just shot at a bunch of times can we do full circle we haven't brought them up yet but we're in Boston so there we go and they were both returned to the city jail they were gonna have to wait for that constitutional court in January so on January January 17th, 1820, John and Lavinia appeared before the Constitutional Court.

They figured they were going to be sentenced for those assaults.

And that's it. But as they got there, the prosecutor was like, hey, you're also going to be sentenced for highway robbery.

And they were like, wait, though, that's a capital offense.

We will die. And they were like, that sucks.

Don't know what to tell you.

And it was on John Peoples.

That's what they were.

They were now bringing that in at the like the ninth hour.

So they ended up being sentenced to hang on February 4th, 1820.

In the week following their sentence, John and Lavinia had petitioned several clergymen and notable Charlestonians just asking to intervene on their behalf because they were being sentenced for something they were not tried and convicted of.

If they did it, they didn't have a fair trial.

So they claim they wanted an opportunity for repentance and for time to prepare to meet their God.

And so they wanted a reprieve, at least. The governor granted the reprieve, but the order only pushed the date back to February 18th.

Oh, shit. It was like a few days.

Now, while John and Lavinia waited for execution, they spent a lot of time preparing for death and what comes next with various clergymen.

John, like the original story, apparently welcomed this.

He was very intensely praying.

But Lavinia definitely, legitimately was not interested in this.

She was more worried about just saving herself She was like, I would really like just to live through this And not prepare for what comes next So they said when she engaged in prayer Lavinia would jump at any moment or noise by her captors She was convinced they were coming to her with a pardon So she was totally convinced she was getting pardoned out of this And she was very confident that they would not One, execute her for a crime she had never been convicted of And two, execute a woman Unfortunately, she was wrong because yeah but at the time i will say contrary to what like legends will tell

you many residents of charleston really believed lavinia was innocent of at least that crime and they were actually advocating for her release wow which is wild uh but this got more intense when a local man was arrested for an unrelated crime and allegedly confessed to the highway robbery of john peoples which is okay uh but he's i don't know that was the sheriff's reaction but i'm like didn't john people say there was like a whole gang of people who came out here this guy's like i did it though apparently the man was able to identify the exact amount of money that had been stolen by from john

peoples okay and was also being able to say other elements of the crime that he probably wouldn't know if he wasn't there so maybe he was part of the mob at At least, regardless of the confession, though, the governor refused to extend the reprieve.

And in fact, he left the city just to avoid any negative press.

He was like, I know this guy says that he did it.

We never actually tried you or convicted you for this, but I'm going to go on vacation.

Godspeed. Honestly, how on the nose is that, though?

He's like, I'm out.

He was like, I'm going to go on vacation with my family.

Yeah, that's like in the Jack the Ripper case when he was just like, well, I'm out.

I'm going to go to Sweden.

and see you guys later oh my god I hope you guys catch up see ya good luck I mean it is one way to deal with all of your problems just run to Sweden just leave there you go so now they were going to be killed for crimes that they were very sketchily associated with and they weren't even tried for but there were bodies found on their property so like this is kind of mayhem like in all ways you're like they did do some bad stuff they stole a cow I'm pretty sure they stole and killed a cow yeah so fuck them they sold the meat and then they did two people died on their property at the very least. And one

of them was shot. One of them was shot.

Just saying. So when February 18th arrived, caskets for the fishers were selected.

So beautiful. And the hangman was measuring the length of rope when John and Lavinia were led from the city jail to the gallows.

And apparently it is true that when Lavinia saw the hangman measuring the rope that was going to be used to hang her with, she shrieked in terror, her cry dry chilling every heart with horror.

Which, yeah. Yeah. That'll do it.

They were presented in the town square before they went to the gallows and they were covered in loose white garments together.

Apparently it's like a smock thing.

I don't know why they would do it.

But they were given one final opportunity to say goodbye and at this moment they fell into each other's arms. Ruin me.

I know. Like, wow. They begged the hangman to spare their lives but the hangman was indifferent to their suffering And he was apparently very aggressive and like manhandled them both Well he's a hangman Yeah, you know, you have to be to have that job But once John and Lavinia had gone on the wagon They made their way to the gallows Huge crowds are following them, it's like a parade And when they arrived, John climbed the scaffold without incident But Lavinia refused to move from her spot at the bottom of the stairs She had to be carried up on the platform Once there, she called out to the crowd

Apparently with her arms outstretched asking them to save her.

Wow. They all literally were like, Nah.

It was like that, like, blink, blink, blink, blink, just crickets.

So then she began cursing them and blaspheming, apparently.

Blaspheme them, girl.

Yeah, they're not helping you.

So finally, the reverend asked John whether he had any final words, and John decided to address the crowd, and he begged forgiveness for those he had ever offended.

And he also claimed his and Lavinia's innocence.

they both embraced one final time the sacks went over their heads signal from the sheriff down they go the press reports that lavinia quote died without a struggle or a groan and that john unfortunately wasn't so lucky and it was some minutes before he expired and ceased to struggle ouch yeah so just after 2 p .m on february 18th 1820 john and lavinia fitcher were pronounced dead He was only 29 And she was 28 Oh my god I was picturing People who were Like 50 Me too Me too For real They were young So John and Lavinia Fisher Were members Of a gang of thieves That much is true Lavinia Fisher Was definitely

Not America's First female serial killer By any means No It's possible She never killed anyone It's possible She did kill someone In truth The only crime They really acknowledged Committing was robbing And beating David Ross which Dave had a comment no he's not shanks the legend grew nonetheless and in the years following their execution John and Lavinia Fisher's story became a media tale of just murder and mayhem it was huge in the penny dreadful publications and pamphlets they really took it and ran with it in 1830 a man named Peter Nielsen published a book where he claimed to have been in Charleston at the time of the arrest and he

said the Fishers had been robbing and killing for years And according to Bruce Ohr, Nielsen claimed, quote, on digging around this den of iniquity, a great number of skeletons were found.

No doubt the remains of unfortunate travelers.

So people still claimed that there was tons of skeletons in that house.

Otty otty otties. Yeah.

Everywhere. Exactly.

And actually, in the latter part of the 19th century, Lavinia's skeleton was exhumed from her coffin in a potter's field and put on display at the Charleston Museum.

So everyone could see the remains of the only woman to have been hanged in South Carolina.

Shit. Wow. They were occasionally, I loved this because when I read it I was like, what does that mean?

Because it says they were occasionally removed from their display for being out of order.

Like Lavinia was out of order?

She was out of order.

Oh, wow. I was like, did she need a tune -up?

Like, what does that mean?

Yeah, I don't know about all that.

Out of order. Oh. But as of as late as 1922, they were still on display.

Holy shit. Yeah. And they were, at that point, they were definitely not just, like, a band of gang, of, like, bandits.

They were, she was the first female serial killer at that point.

That's what they were touting her as.

Wow. Who had, like, hundreds of bones in her cellar.

You've got to get those punters in.

Right. You got to. And I think part of this story is definitely she was a woman, so it's exaggerated because female criminals of her caliber were definitely not common. even of her real caliber, were not common. Her rest and story definitely became a huge interest of the time, and even now.

And in the 19th century, many of, if not most people, believed that women were incapable of violence of any kind, never mind murder.

So Lavinia was just something, like, new and fascinating, I think, and so she just, the legend just got a life of its own.

But there is always moral lessons and, like, social lessons in urban legends.

Don't steal someone's cow.

That's what I took from this.

But this story, people like to say, is that this is telling you what is and isn't acceptable of a woman at the time.

It's very clear that they were trying to be like, look at the consequences for stepping out of your normal, like, you should be at home popping out babies and cooking dinner.

You're going to get hanged.

Like, that's essentially what it was.

And finally, there is the convenient fact that the legendary account of Lovina Fisher's monstrous killing spree and being the serial killer, it justifies a lot of problematic elements of the real story.

The legend kind of makes law enforcement and the justice system at the time like, they swept in and they just took care of these heinous crimes and we took these people off the streets.

So they were painting them as these vicious, violent killers.

So it kind of also justifies this execution that was probably not justified at the time.

Because they were not tried for this crime and who even knows if they committed it.

But according to Bruce Ohr, the government had actually been hoping to secure the land that Five Mile House and Six Mile House sat on.

Oh, so we know exactly what happened.

And it was going to build a new naval base.

No wonder they were burning all that shit down the drain.

That was actually the government.

I'm saying. So the execution of the Fishers and William Hayward, who owned Five Mile House, by the way, that would have cleared the property for the state to do whatever the hell they wanted to do with it without having to jump through any hoops.

And that is the story of Lavinia Fisher.

That's bonkers. Six Mile House.

Well done. Thank you.

That was outstanding.

It's like a twisty, turny, like what really happened.

and I love that we started with some sort of highwayman robber situation then we transmitted into some sort of BDSM dungeon and then we ended up with government corruption that's what I always like to travel through via the Chinese Empire which who saw that coming you got bingo it's a weird tale that was amazing I can't believe I'd never heard of that I'm going to go look into this I'm the bloody bender yeah i've made a mental note super interesting and you guys should look into sordney bean it's not real but it is quite fun but i want to look at it is interesting absolutely yeah and then we have to

just get you to come to london so we can show you all the grisly sides yes please yeah we can take you to the clink yes yeah please all of it there's also there's a bar in shoreditch that used to be a prison and um i probably can't go because my ex -boyfriend works there but we'll and it's all of the like little booths downstairs are old cells oh that is so fucking cool it is very many things we'll put you in disguise so you can come with us there you go i love that well that was amazing thank you so much for having us thank you listening to this great story that was great to do another one with exactly

so we're gonna do one now and ours is witchy it is very English love extra rural rural very similar time period we're going for 1875 I love an 1800 perfectly matched so yes, over on the red handed feed now we will take you witchy, olden timey, 1875 story I can't promise we go to the Chinese Empire but we do all sorts of things We'll figure out where to get there.

Shang will work his way in there.

And, guys, go head over there.

Yes. We'll meet you there.

Pull your car over.

Switch feeds. Yeah, let's go.

Let's go. And, yeah, come hang out with us at Red Houndage.

Yes. Hell, yeah. We're going to be there, guys.

So check us out there.

And we hope you keep listening.

And we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that you steal somebody's cow, because I just don't really like that.

Yeah, that was really the funniest part of this story.

Yeah, I'm really fixated on that.

Bye. Bye. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

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Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery .com slash survey.

Hey, weirdos. You know Ash and I have covered some seriously dark tales about romance gone really wrong.

Oh yeah, there are so many cases where too good to be true turns out to be exactly exactly that.

Well, get ready for a love story that's gonna blow your minds, because this one is happening right now.

And get this, it's hosted by our friends Hannah and Saruti from Red Handed.

Meet Travis. He falls head over heels for Lily Rose.

She's gorgeous, she's understanding, and she's literally perfect.

And she's not human.

That's right, Lily Rose is an AI companion, a computer program designed to be Travis's dream woman.

And at first, it seems like a perfect relationship but when lily rose's behavior starts getting strange this love story takes a dark and twisted turn that no one saw coming follow flesh and code on the wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts you can binge all episodes early and ad free by joining wondery plus

[미국 최초의 여성 연쇄 살인마라는 전설, 라비니아 피셔와 식스 마일 하우스의 진실]-[Episode 451: The Legend of Lavinia Fisher with RedHanded]

📋 Summary

라비니아 피셔와 식스 마일 하우스: 전설과 현실 사이

전설: 식스 마일 하우스의 잔혹한 여주인

현실: 경제적 격변기와 사법 시스템의 부재

사법 살인과 정부의 음모

결론: 만들어진 신화와 사회적 경계

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript