Episode 448: Burke & Hare Part 2｜Morbid

Hey weirdos, it's Ash here, ready to share a little secret.

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I have really, really cool news.

Okay, so about a year ago, I got to share the absolutely life -changing, mind -blowing, like universe -warping news about writing my first book, The Butcher and the Wren.

I could never have dreamed of the support that I received then and that the book continues to receive now from all of you.

You are amazing. You set records with the numbers of pre -orders.

You made every edition a bestseller.

It's you guys. You did it.

And he was even nominated recently for an audio award. It's for Best Audiobook with a Multi -Voice Performance.

Yup, yup. Those voice actors are the best. And now I am so proud and so thrilled to share two pieces of incredible news with you.

I have been sitting on these two pieces of news forever and I can't wait to scream them to you.

So the first one is that The Butcher and the Wren is going to be out in paperback this summer on July 25th.

So you can finally get that paperback edition.

And to make this even cooler, guess what the paperback edition is going to have?

What? It's going to have a sneak peek of a chapter from book two.

Oh my God. And guess what?

I got to read it and I can tell you it's a really good chapter.

It is. That's right.

There's going to be a sequel.

It is coming. You get to read part of it in that paperback if you get it.

And what's even better is that my publisher is giving away free signed copies of the paperback to the first 50 people who pre -order.

So if you want to pre -order the paperback with that sneak peek chapter of book two in it, you can go to tinyurl .com slash t -b -a -t -w paperback.

That's tinyurl .com slash t -b -a -t -w paperback.

Thank you guys so much. you're amazing thank you so much for listening supporting reading being the best weirdos that you ever could be i can't tell you how much i appreciate you and love you i just want to hug you all but i won't because it's virtual but like feel it okay i can't wait for you guys to read more jeremy and run this summer and it's gonna be awesome just you wait kapowee hey weirdos i'm ash and i'm elena and this right here that you're listening to is morbid it sure is yay it sure is it remains to be so whoa that was poetry i am poetry you are poetry retreat.

No, you know what you are?

You pros. I'm pros.

That's beautiful. Yeah, I love the word pros.

I do too. Pros was a sponsor of ours one time.

It's been, yeah, it's been a sponsor.

Yeah. Pros. I like pros.

This isn't, this is not an ad for pros.

I was gonna say the word pros has no meaning anymore, but it's fun while it lasted.

Pros. Pros. Guys, it's only Tuesday and and we're losing our GD minds.

Yeah. You ever have a week like that?

It's been quite, quite a week.

It's 2023, man. Yeah.

I was like, oh, it's going to be such a great year because I'm getting married that year.

That's probably the only good thing that will take place.

But you know what? We're having a positive attitude because we have positive candles.

And lots of statues.

shoes yeah mikey really like positive vibe to this place up the joy candle is wild and over there yeah we have like a positive energy candle and she is lit right now and she's also lit like she's like she's we lit her and then she got lit herself like she is really going off right now which makes me think that she's like hey bitches she was stop talking so negatively i am positive It's my positive energy, hear me roar.

I feel it. And she's engulfing this room in flames.

Fuck yeah. And I have some intention flowers sitting next to me.

Yeah. I have a whole shelf that Mikey put together for me.

So it's positive vibes only, okay?

Positive vibes only, even when there's tons of shit happening around us that is not great.

So I was going to like start making an acronym of everything you said, but then you really just kept going and I lost the letters.

but i was like pvo oh wait she's doing more p -b -o -p -w -t -b -s oh did i say shitty or bad okay of course you said shitty t -h -a -u that's what i'm trying to tell you know that's what everybody's motto should be So anyway, there's your motto.

That's your affirmation for today.

But positive vibes only here.

And you guys rule. I was talking to a listener today.

You were? Yes, I was because her name is Danny and she's awesome.

I really like her. Is she a phantom?

She's a phantom. There you go.

I don't know. I'll ask.

I loved that show. But the reason that I was chatting briefly with her was I think in one of the recent episodes we were talking about how, oh, we were talking about it with JVN.

We were talking about how we put butter on Pop -Tarts.

Oh, hell yeah. And I was like, is that gross, everybody?

But no, she was like, I do that too.

And then she was like, also don't judge me, but I put butter with my peanut butter on toast. I do that too and so do you.

And she said I put butter on saltines.

and I was like, bitch, are we the same person?

Because I was like, wait a second.

See, that's spooky.

That is. Because that shit.

That's spooky. That shit.

Also, that's spooky is a great podcast. Go listen to it.

But that shit is spooky.

I thought that stuff that whenever I do it, everyone around me is like, that's really gross.

And like, you should check yourself before you wreck yourself.

So, yeah. To hear somebody sit there and just out with it.

say like i also do these two very niche things do you think that putting butter on before peanut butter is niche i feel like it is because everyone i've ever mentioned it to is like that's really gross i wonder if i got it from you i must have gotten it you did because ma i think i got it from dad and then i probably passed it to you because i was like try this it's fucking good because john is horrified by it every time i do it he's like you are something else no everybody Everybody should give it a shot.

Where I do draw the line, though, is butter on saltines.

Have you tried it, though?

No. Have you tried it?

You haven't tried it?

I'm going to have you try it.

And you're going to go, I probably will.

I love a good dipping.

Because you're not, like, smearing butter on it.

It's just like a light little - A dab will do you.

Boop on it. And you just take it just with the salt.

I don't know what. It just, like, gives it a little sweet, little salty.

Just enough. Not too much. i might have made this confession before about saltines on this podcast but if i haven't get ready for a fucking wild one this is disgusting wild people um not anymore no um am i like no but when i was little this is like a gross fucking nasty thing that i did when i was little i didn't require supervision well i did require i didn't get it i used to dip my saltines into water and And eat them.

And sometimes – this is so gross – we used to live with this lady named Judy, me and my mom, and she was – Judy – was the best. But, like, she ran a daycare, so there was a lot of us to keep track of.

So, you know, maybe I wasn't always getting the eyes on me.

I used to dip my saltines into the pool and eat them.

Oh, how fucking gross is that?

Mikey's head just whipped over your, like, what?

I would like to tell you that I was, like, seven.

How old were you? No, no, no. know i would like to tell you today i would like to say that while i confess that i was actually 17 it was actually last week i'm just kidding i'm actually about to do it now no but i i'm actually gonna go find the nearest pool in a bag of salt beans and have myself a good time have myself a day wow myself an afternoon isn't that so foul like that's foul and it wasn't even a saltwater pool because like yeah no that's one of those things that like i'm always of the mind like Like, have you tried it?

You should not try dipping yourself in salt.

I feel like that's one of those things that I can say is not great.

Yeah, I also wrote my name on the wall at Judy's house because I had recently seen Madeline do that in her movie.

But fun fact, you get in trouble for writing on Judy's walls.

In case you were thinking of writing on Judy's walls, everybody.

You get in trouble.

You will get in trouble.

And gymnastics will get taken away from you.

Aww. I know. Don't take after school activities away.

Never. It's important.

Yeah. I don't know.

That's just me. I'm not telling you how to parent.

whatever so what did these fuckers do next so i think we should yeah so but you know what shout out to danny for being the same person that i am like what's up soul sister danny did you think you're saltine's in the pool because we could also be friends we can also be she's like girl she's like no the line has been drawn she said i don't identify with you but yeah that was funny so that was a nice like little like i it's a nice moment to like connect for a second like girl yeah Yeah, but now we're going to get into some terrible shit.

We're going to get into part two of Birkin hair.

These fuckers suck.

I know, and that's the thing.

Whenever you say like, oh, we're going to talk about Birkin hair, it sounds like a fun story.

It sounds whimsical.

It sounds like a fairy tale.

It does sound like a fairy tale.

I don't know why I said it that way.

It sounds so fairy -like.

Fairy -like. It was a soul.

It does sound whimsical.

It does. I agree with you.

um but when we last left them they murdered a grandma and her grandson separately right yep yeah yeah and all four seemed to have involvement yeah and then dr knox there was like oh weird that you brought in an old lady and her grandson at the same time they don't look as good so i'm gonna give you a little less money for it and it's like my guy he my dude like i'm i'm on the the record right now yeah he knew oh he are you you're not getting all these body body oddy oddy oddy and not questioning it they just rolled in there right with a woman and her grandson and you're telling me that you didn't

question that these two people died side by side right and they had already been sus as fuck before yeah because of the last woman before mary yeah they knew she was known in town they were the last people seen with With her yadda -dadoo.

Yadda -dadoo. Like, fuck this.

Yeah. It's not great.

But, you know, the last one that they had before we stopped part one was Effie, who they believed her name was Effie.

Right. And in their confessions, they were like, I think she went by Effie.

Oh, nice. It's like, that's nice.

Also, I think that's the cutest name.

I didn't get a chance to say it last week.

It is very adorable.

That's a whimsical name.

Oh, totally. Effie.

I follow this girl, sorry, on TikTok that she will categorize names and she does them into like whimsical names, like old -fashioned names.

That's fun. I'm going to find her name later and tell you.

Yeah. I want to know what my name would be categorized into.

Well, so she does like baby names.

So, I've actually never seen your name on there.

Oh. She does like – My name was a baby name at one point.

No way. Yeah. It was?

Yeah. I've never seen you on there.

You're not whimsical.

You're not old -fashioned.

At one point it was a baby name.

One day. Because I was a baby at one point.

You were a cute little baby.

I wasn't there to like witness it in person because like maybe I was in a different life.

One of your souls probably was.

Probably. I think that.

Anyway. But either way, poor Effie.

She was a hawker. She was actually known around town.

She was known to Burke.

Of course she was. So she, and when I last told you guys, she had gone door to door kind of selling, and I think she was going to sell him bits of leather for his cobbling work.

Okay. And he enticed her into a barn with alcohol in the promise of rest. Once she had fallen asleep, he said he laid a cloth over her and suffocated her as they did the others.

Oh, okay. Then they just brought her to Knox's dissection room and got 10 shillings for the body.

Wow. Yep. So as the summer went on, the stress of maintaining this whole thing was beginning to wear a little bit on Burke and Hare.

not in the sense of them having remorse or guilt but just in the sense of stress of doing it yeah and trying to maintain the whole thing and it was also you know it was wearing on their significant others as well so laird like we talked about had been at least like on like outsidely involved in the murder she was definitely there yeah in participating her boarding house right yeah and she was participating in some way luring people in you know help plying them with alcohol alcohol.

Yeah. Helen McDougal, like we said, she had not actively involved herself in any of the killings up to this point.

Except the grandson.

The grandson, she didn't actively involve herself in his killing.

She was only there to calm him down when he couldn't find his grandma.

Oh, okay. So if we're talking like specifically, was she involved in a killing?

We have no evidence of that right now.

Okay. But you're about to tell me something.

That to me is accomplished shit right there like you were calming down this kid yeah when did you know what was happening to his grandma or did you not i mean i feel like this is a small fucking boarding house that's what i think but you know i don't know but so she hadn't actively involved herself in any of the killings like i said and she's with burke just to lay that out first yes so hair actually ended up looking at that as a liability because she hadn't actively involved herself in any of the crimes But she was around and knew what was going on, it seems like.

Which it's one of those things where it's like, if you're going to be around, you better make one of the stab wounds so that we can all point to you and say you did it too.

Yeah. Otherwise, you can just go, I didn't do anything, but here's all the information.

And you don't have to be implicated at all.

That's how he was looking at it.

Exactly. He was like, the fact that the three of us have been actively involved in these and she isn't but is around, that's a problem.

Yeah. So in fact, at one point, Hare had gone so far as to suggest that Burke kill the woman in order to protect themselves.

The fuck? Hey, I think you should off your wife because she hasn't murdered with us yet.

He even came up with a plan how to do it.

He wanted Burke to take her into the country for a few weeks, then write Hare and inform him of McDougal's death.

And of course, in reality, the murder would have been committed in the back room of the boarding house and with McDougal's corpse being just another one of the bodies that they gave to Dr. Knox.

It's, hey, it's wild.

My wife died. Here she is.

Isn't that so wild?

It's so crazy that, like, I've been getting all these bodies for you and now my wife died.

So, and he was trying to have him set up an alibi.

Yeah. Like, he was trying to set this whole thing up.

He had really thought about this, which is scary.

If I was Burke, right?

Yeah. Burke is with McDougal.

Yeah, if I was Burke, I'd be worried that hair was going to kill my lady.

Well, that's, I mean, I guess fortunately for Helen McDougal, Burke may have been an opportunistic monster.

Yeah. Like an actual piece of shit.

But I guess his one line was that he wouldn't readily murder the woman that he claimed to love, I suppose.

So they did not go forward with that plan.

Everyone's got a line.

Yeah, but I'm not going to give him anything.

I'm not giving him anything, no. At least he didn't do that I guess.

So I think this kind of shows like the eagerness with which Hare wanted to dispatch Helen McDougal.

That's kind of evidence of the growing tension not only between the whole group but between Burke and Hare specifically.

So then the next murder really didn't do anything to relieve Burke's suspicions of Hare.

Like this made things worse.

So in early summer, Burke estimated it like late June, which was around the anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn, which I just thought was interesting, the name Bannockburn.

I like that. Burke and McDougall had left Edinburgh for a brief period of time just to visit friends in Falkirk.

OK. During this time, Hare and Laird were having a lot of financial difficulties and had ended up pawning everything they owned that was of value.

oh everything yeah anything that was of value they were pawning yet when burke and mcdougall returned a short time later suddenly hair and laird appeared to no longer have any financial troubles interesting so when burke asked hair if he'd been quote unquote doing any business you know what that means do it i love that he's like doing any business like these two are our fucking business partners.

Are you kidding me?

Were you doing business when I wasn't here?

Wow. So he asked him, were you doing any business while I was away with Helen?

Hare denied it, said no. However, in discussion with Dr. Knox, Burke learned that during their absence, Hare had, quote, fell in with a drunk woman in the street in the Westport and enticed her back to the boarding house, killed her, and sold the body to Knox and kept the money for himself and then lied about it.

What? Which I'm like, wow, you guys are shitbag monsters.

And now you're even being shitbag monsters to each other.

Yeah. I mean, it was only a matter of time.

It was. Like, you're not – what, you think you have a friend?

Like, you're both sociopaths.

You don't have a friend.

Like, neither one of you gives a shit about anybody.

Right. So, for some reason, Burke and Hare started getting pretty reckless as the summer was drawing to an end.

I'm not sure why. They just started getting very reckless.

The heat. It's the heat, you know?

One night the two spotted a policeman by the name of Andrew Williamson and he was dragging a very obviously drunk woman to the Westport watch house.

So Burke saw this and called out let that woman go on to her lodgings and the police officer Williamson said he didn't know where the woman lived that's why he was taking her to the watch house to keep her from spending the night on the street.

Yeah. So he's like I'm a good person like I'm actually trying to do a good thing here but So after like a brief conversation, Burke was actually able to convince the officer to release her to him.

She was brought back to the boarding house and she was murdered and sold to Knox for 10 shillings.

If you don't tell me that this is how they got caught, I am leaving the room.

According to Burke, he quote, had a good character with police, which is why he was able to convince that police officer to release the very obviously drunk woman to him.

that night but this brazen act clearly suggests a very misplaced confidence that don't worry in a few months at least will result in their capture but i'm telling you right now this didn't do it i have to he had a police officer hand a woman to him like who he murdered that night and brought back to dr knox and was paid for it that is beyond they did not get caught and also It's also the fact that it took months for them to get like if, and it's sad because again, it's, they are taking advantage of who they believe to be quote unquote less dead.

And they're just proving that stigma, you know, by like, you literally take your victim from a police officer and the police don't even realize that this woman is who she is and that she got killed.

Exactly. That's so fucked.

And that this police officer doesn't care.

Like just handed her over.

And that was it. I don't need to know what happened to her after that.

It's so sad. It's so sad.

And it really is such a misplaced confidence, though, because he's out here being like, oh, yeah, look at what I did.

I convinced a police officer to give it to me.

That, as horrible as the situation is, that is going to be the thing that takes them down, is them thinking that this is who they are now.

They're able to have police officers just hand them victims. They're above the law.

So that is going to be an issue for them later, but it was too little too late.

Whenever I feel like a murderer starts to get that kind of confidence, it's like a tailspin.

It's hubris. Is that how you say that?

Tailspin? Yeah. Ash can't say anything, but she can say tailspin.

Hell yeah. So in the late summer, Burke and McDougall, Helen, his wife, moved from Tanner's Close, the boarding house, to a small cottage not far from the boarding house.

Okay. There they shared this little cottage with a couple called the Brogans.

Brogans I like that name I do too it's like very I don't know why it's like cozy uh yeah just I'm just here with the Brogans I would call them the Brogies the Brogies I would just call them the Brogs with my Brogies just here with my Brogins so some have suggested that the move was Burke's attempt to keep McDougal safe because of what you were saying after Hare and Laird had suggested that they um murder her yeah to keep her quiet he might have felt like he had to put a little distance between hair and his wife, which I'm like, you probably should stop murdering people with that guy too.

Seriously. I don't know.

Well, and also I bet it was that.

And then I bet what added on to it was the fact that he committed a murder without him.

Yeah. And then lied about it.

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A washerwoman by the name of Mrs. Hostler.

So one afternoon, the woman had just finished her washing for the day and Burke and Hare convinced her to return the following day to have a few drinks with them.

They were very charming.

They were able to convince a lot of people to do this.

Sounds like it. And she did.

So the next day, after she'd become drunk, they convinced her to lie down in an adjacent room where they killed her by suffocation so this is what they did they get their people drunk and then they do it and they're people who they know are desperate they know are on hard times they know are gonna say yes to a lot of drinks just to numb whatever is happening in their lives and i feel like it is and i feel like it's also so important to say like how long it actually takes to suffocate someone oh yeah like they weren't This wasn't like a quote unquote easy way to get away with it or like an easy

way to do it. Like these people are fucking monsters.

You have to stand there for like, what is it?

Isn't it like seven minutes or something?

It's very like for strangling.

It's definitely, for suffocation too.

It's probably similar.

It's brutal. And it's aggressive.

It's violent. Nobody's laying there motionless.

They're laying there fighting for their lives trying to breathe.

Exactly. It's awful.

So fucked. And for you to stand over somebody for a matter of minutes and do that.

Like, you are beyond.

You've got to be shut down.

Like, there's got to be just nothing.

There's nothing. It's just a cold, empty box in there.

It's so crazy. Well, then they just loaded her body into a box.

They stored that box in the coal house until later that afternoon, and then they transported her to Dr. Knox, and they got eight shillings for her body.

Oh, okay. Not a full ten.

So, like, all over the place, Knox is.

Yeah, he's just making random assessments of price here.

You can make an assessment.

So not, I thought of that same thing, make an assessment.

Not long after the murder of Hassler, Burke, or excuse me, not, I don't know why I just said that all in one sentence.

Don't you hate when you go to read a sentence that you wrote and you're like, how do I speak?

How did I mean to say that out loud?

Well, sometimes when you type something, it sounds different in your head than the way you say it out loud.

Or I forget a punctuation mark and then my brain just runs everything together.

I'm a punctuation monster.

I, like, over punctuate everything.

See, that's what happened here.

And then my brain's like, no comma, just keep going.

Who gives a fuck about an answer comma?

But what I meant was, not long after the murder of Hossler, Burke and McDougal welcomed into their home Ann McDougal.

Same last name. Yes.

It's a cousin of Helen's.

Bitch. It was actually a cousin of Helen's previous husband.

So, like, technically.

Cousin -in -law. Yeah.

That's a cousin, though.

Drew's cousins are my cousins.

I love them. Still a cousin.

One afternoon, while the Brogans, the other couple that they were living with, were out of the house, Burke and Hare murdered Anna McDougal.

They murdered his wife's cousin?

Yep. What the fuck?

And it was with Hare doing most of the work, of course.

Burke was not the one who did most of the work.

So clearly Hare is trying to, like, put some kind of message out there.

Yeah, like assert his dominance.

Like he's getting closer to her.

Oh my God. And it's like Burke is allowing it.

that made my stomach going along with it yeah because he's like i'm killing your family members now my god he is they're both fucked but like that's another level yeah it's i'm i'm just i can't and because of this whole like oh um it's a relative thing burke said that he did not like to begin first on her because she was a relative oh totally so don't worry about that what was the the wife like hey what happened to my fucking cousin yeah she was like what's going on here but they loaded her body into a trunk and they intended to take her body to knox but before they had the chance the brogans came

home and knowing that no one in the house owned a trunk they um started asking several questions as to the origin of this trunk that was now sitting in their house I'm going to admit something to you.

I thought they put her in the trunk of a car because I forgot that we were, like, way back.

We were way back. I was like, nobody owned a trunk.

No, no. And then I was like, oh, and then a steamer trunk.

Exactly. Got you, got you.

When it became clear the couple was not going to stop asking these questions, Birkin Hare, hey, where'd this fucking trunk come from and what's in it?

Like, they were literally like, hey, where did this trunk come from?

And they're like, don't worry about it.

And then, like, they walk.

They're also like, don't open it.

They like walk in the other room and put their coats up and they're like...

But about that trunk, like, do you have any information?

And they're like, no, we don't.

And then they're like, okay, cool.

Can we open it and like see?

Can we like open the trunk and maybe just see what's inside?

No, we can't. Well, maybe there's like a name inside.

Do you guys want dinner?

Yeah, we would love dinner.

Do you want to like, should we ask the trunk if it wants to be part of dinner?

Like what, they just weren't going to let the trunk go.

I don't blame them.

I'm not going to let a random appearing trunk in my home go.

I'm not. And Burke and Hare eventually...

For the record. Sorry.

But Burke and Hare eventually sat down with the Brogans, excuse me, Mr. Brogan, and explained the entire situation to him.

They said, hey, it's just like times are tough and we like to make extra money by murder.

And what do you think?

And then they said, hey, do you want to be in on this and get some of the money if you don't say anything?

And he was like, OK.

And he meant it. Yep.

He meant it. He said, OK.

I thought you were going to say he meant it and then he motioned for the police.

He said. I know you can't call them back then.

He said, yeah, that's fine with me.

Wow. How does horseshit find horseshit that then finds some more horseshit?

What's crazy, too, is that with each murder committed in this particular period, they're just growing increasingly reckless, first of all.

And they're also pulling apart from each other drastically.

Yeah. They're doing things on their own.

They're not listening.

They're killing each other's relatives at this point.

Like, shit's going down.

Now they're inviting other people into this whole scheme.

Like, bitch, the more people you have in this scheme, the more shit is going to fall apart.

It's not the merrier.

No, it is not the merrier.

They're also splitting that profit in way more pieces, which is way less advantageous to them with, they're murdering people.

Yeah. And now you're splitting the profits, like, now they're splitting it four ways.

But are they not because Laird, this one didn't take place in Laird's boarding home?

I think because she is part of it, she gets that one shilling just for her silence.

That's how he's able to hold all these people.

They are able to hold all these people.

And that's why McDougal is such a liability to them because she's not getting anything for it.

She's not getting anything for her silence.

And they're not just going to pay her unless she has something to do with it because you need her hand to have blood on it so you can go, she did it too.

That way she's not going to be eager to go to the authorities because then she has to admit that she's been part of it.

Okay. So they're not getting that from her.

This is nutso. So that brings us to the beginning of the end.

Oh. So for obvious reasons and with very few exceptions, Burke and Hare killed mainly elderly and incapacitated and transient like down on their luck women yeah that seems to be their mo they they go they go away from it that well although they were almost always opportunists like they were always just they weren't like following people and like trolling for days you know what i mean their preferred victim type type likely had something to do with the fact that women were just much easier to overpower in their mind um and that but what's wild is like at least one of them and probably more of them

there was evidence that they tried to fight back yeah resist and this became very evident in the in this whole thing that like they were definitely doing this because they could overpower their victims yeah it became evident that they thought this was the case and that it It wasn't in October when they murdered James Wilson, who was otherwise known as Daft Jamie.

What does like daft mean again?

So I'll explain to you.

According to George McGregor Wilson, he was described as, quote, a lad who, while deficient in intellect, was kind at heart.

Don't you dare ruin me right now.

He was a universal favorite.

Stop. Among the townspeople he was.

now jamie's had a very kind nature he was not confrontational he was not an aggressive man oh it the people loved him he was like very beloved but he also was kind of like a frequent target of bullies fuck that they would just like taunt him and shit and in his early 20s by the time of this happening jamie's father had died many years earlier and her and his mother was a hawker who was often traveling selling goods so he spent a lot of his time just wandering the streets in edinburgh if jamie doesn't live i'm leaving so as a result of this he became a very familiar figure to people around town

yeah especially to the people who would just out of the kindness of their heart give him food and gifts because he was just a nice kid oh and he's in his 20s at this point but i say kid but that's a kid that's a kid yeah um and they kind of like looked after him in a way because like they just knew he was like you know he needed it see there is some kind of community yeah there is i was looking for it there is now jamie wilson was definitely not only the antithesis of a typical birkin hair victim because he was not a drinker he was not a woman right he was not he was pretty strong he's not an older

person older and he's He's well known to everybody in town.

Very well known. Like this is like front page of Time Magazine, kind of well known.

Like even more so than the previous.

Very more so. So this is just like totally the antithesis of their typical victim.

He was also the stupidest choice for a victim because like I said, he didn't drink.

You're not going to ply him away with alcohol.

So what the fuck is your move?

And then you're going to have to overpower him while he's sober.

He can fight you. He's not going to be easily lured away.

way and when he is suddenly gone everyone's gonna notice immediately yeah he's like everyone's kid you're not gonna be able to bring him to dr knox and have it be like oh yeah it's just weird daft jamie just dropped dead it's like no no one's gonna believe that now it was actually margaret laird who'd chosen jamie as a victim because she discovered him alone and looking for his mother at a grass market one day in early October.

Fuck you, Margaret.

Yep. Fuck you. That's what I said.

Now, according to Burke, Jamie agreed to accompany her back to the boarding house, but he was very anxious the entire walk back to the house and kept asking questions.

Oh my God, you're ruining me.

When they reached the house, Laird left Jamie with hair while she went to find Burke, whom she eventually found at a local shop, and the two of them went back to Tanner's Close, the boarding house.

Back at the house, Laird left the three men alone, which they offered Jamie some drinks.

And after a little while, and Jamie did drink with them, he became a little tired and laid down at the bed.

And that's the point where Hare laid next to him.

A few minutes passed before Hare threw himself on top of Jamie and attempted to cover his mouth and nose.

But it didn't work.

The same thing. It didn't work.

Jamie, however, was neither drunk or incapacitated at this point.

So, he started struggling and resisting, and the two men fell from the bed and continued to struggle on the floor.

Eventually, though, Burke was able to get a hold of Jamie's feet and legs, which he held tight as hair suffocated Jamie.

So, he, like, they almost lost this one, and this was the stupidest. Thank goodness they were so stupid, but this is so tragic.

I'm like, so... They're all tragic, but this one's just like, are you fucking kidding me?

And he's like, Margaret, go fuck yourself.

He's looking for his mom, and that's when you fucking pray upon him?

And he's clearly intellectually a little immature.

Yeah. And it's like, he's looking for his mother, and he's in his early 20s.

Like, come on, man.

That is fucking disgusting.

It's vile. It's really vile.

I'm so angry right now.

I had hope. I know.

No, I felt bad building you up like that, but I was like, I don't know how else to say this.

Well, that's how you tell the story.

Now, in nearly every case, Burke and Hare were very careful to get rid of their victims' clothings and whatever possession the victim had on them at the time.

So they would just be like, I found them naked?

Essentially, they just bring the body to Dr. Knox.

And in this case, though, their victim had a lot of belongings.

Most of the time, their victim didn't have a lot of things on them because they didn't have a lot of things in the world.

Was he walking around with, like, a lot of his things?

He had a lot of belongings, and he had some things of value because he was, you know, which they ended up just splitting between them.

They just stole all the things, and eventually they gave his clothing to Burke's brother who passed them on to his younger children.

And he knew? Yep. Fuck this.

Yep. So, and this is the thing.

So his brother didn't know, but, like, they knew that he was going to be, They knew that Constantine was going to give these clothes to his children.

That's literally gross.

And they still allowed it to happen.

Because they have actually no souls.

Yeah. Because Constantine Burke and the children didn't recognize the clothing.

So they were just like, okay.

They did eventually end up trading them for like other items in town, but still.

So putting Jamie's very recognizable clothing and belongings out in the public because they were selling these goods now too.

Right. That was a really bad idea on their part.

Because it's not like you just like sold them to like some random person.

You literally gave them to people in town that are connected to you.

Exactly. And then you sold the belongings he had to people in town who are like, oh, wait, I know what this is.

And oh, I got that from Burke.

Oh, I got that from Hare or Laird. So the more significant problem was that the boy would almost certainly certainly be recognized by Dr. Knox.

That was the biggest problem.

Like when you bring this kid in, they're going to know exactly who he is.

So indeed, when it was brought to him, he wasn't home.

But when they arrived with the body, his assistant didn't really look very quickly.

So he just was like, okay.

And he was like, you know what, can you return the next day and Knox will be here and he'll pay you.

So the next day when they did inspect the body, several of Knox's students were like, that's Jamie.

And they were like, what the fuck?

But Knox was like, you know what?

Ready the body for dissection.

So he 100 % recognized this body, but he was just ready for dissection.

What the actual fuck?

And then he assured his students this ever -so -fresh male subject could not possibly be anyone they knew.

What? yeah like you really need to dissect that bad you've had how many bodies have we had up to this point 15 yeah like i i think you've learned some some stuff or i think 14 at this point take a second yeah the fuck and later student these students were interviewed by police later obviously because they were very much like unwillingly involved in this exactly they all told investigators they were pretty certain this was jamie but they didn't want to swear on it because Knox had told them that it wasn't.

Well, and then they're being intimidated by somebody who has power.

So they're like, ooh, I don't know.

And can determine their future.

Exactly. So the final murder occurred on October 31st. Oh.

Yeah. Did they do that, like, on purpose?

I don't know. This is when Burke met Mary Docherty, and it was in a Reimer's grocery store that morning on October 31st. So like the grandmother the pair had brutally murdered earlier that summer, Dougherty had come from out of town in search of her son.

Oh. And was virtually unknown to anyone in Edinburgh.

Oh, no. So Burke struck up a conversation with this older woman, telling her that he'd also come to Edinburgh, he was from Ireland.

And, you know, wow, crazy, my mom's maiden name is Dougherty.

So maybe we're related.

Probably not. In what she likely took as a friendly gesture, Burke invited her back to the home for breakfast with he and his wife.

She was like, great, absolutely, friends.

I'm excited to make a friend, exactly.

Maybe they can help me find my son, that kind of thing.

Once they were in the house, Helen McDougal tended to this new guest while Burke went off in search of hair.

When he finally found hair, they went back to Burke's house where they found Helen and the guests cleaning up after breakfast. Well, it would have been pretty easy for them to overpower and murder Mrs. Dougherty because she was very frail.

Sure. The real issue that they were facing was getting rid of the couple who had been staying with Burke and McDougal for over a week.

There was another couple in the house.

And they must have seen her come in and eat breakfast. Exactly.

So they were like, fuck.

So it's trying to think quickly here, and Burke told this couple that he'd run into an old family friend, and he wondered if it would be, you know, terribly inconvenient for them to maybe find another place to stay for a night or two, just so they could have this Mrs. Dougherty, this family friend.

He even went as far as suggesting they could stay with Hare and Laird for a few days.

And the couple said, sure.

So that evening, things went about the usual way.

They had, so the couples had dinner with Mary Daugherty, Burke and Hare and Laird. They shared like multiple meals with this woman.

Like really got to know her.

Probably heard all about her life.

All about her missing son.

They had dinner with her at Burke and McDougal's home.

Afterwards, they sang, they danced, they drank.

Had a great time with her.

They literally like had a little party.

I just can't even. But whatever the case was, whether this was a planned ruse that way or if they just really got into it that night and were like enjoyed her company and still decided to go through it.

Around 10 or 11 that night, it became a little loud and disruptive because they were happy, loud, and disruptive, not fighting.

Yeah, they were like having fun.

Dancing, drinking, singing, and it was drawing attention of neighbors.

So people wanted to know what was going on.

So a woman from the house next door went to look through the window and she saw what she later told police was Helen McDougal holding a bottle to the mouth of dockerty pouring the whiskey down her throat i always knew that i saw helen mcdougall for exactly who the fuck she was later that evening the disruption continued when burke and hair got into an actual argument a violent one and they only stopped when mary dockerty fell from her stool and crashed onto the floor oh no and she couldn't get up so laird and and McDougal, the two women, use the opportunity to get out of the house, which is when Burke

and Hare use the same method that they always use to suffocate Mrs. Daugherty.

But they did do something a little different with her, which I don't know if this was them trying something different that they were going to employ from here on out or if this was just, I don't know.

But whichever man was doing the actual suffocating, at some point they had used their their hand to strangle Mrs. Docherty around the throat, and this left deep bruises on her neck.

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now she was dead they stripped her of her belongings and berk sent for nox's assistant and they explained that they just had another body to sell wow crazy it's i can't now with this also so they make the call they're like hey you need to pick up this body tomorrow and then they just went about the party drinking dancing until the early hours of the morning with a dead body and they just murdered brutally had just exactly yep wow so the following day november 1st berk went went to the boarding house to check on the lodgers that had been sent to the house.

Right. And invite them back home for breakfast. Saying that, you know, their family friend, that old woman that they had met yesterday, she had grown very impudent, perhaps having taken too much liquor, and they found it necessary to put her out.

That's how they wanted to put it.

Put her out. Yeah. So one of these lodgers, Mrs. Gray, thought that Burke was behaving a little strangely.

And she said he was very nervously watching her and calling after her when she began cleaning around a pile of straw near the corner of the room.

Burke kept up his weird, like, anxious behavior for most of the morning, and when several of the occupants of the house needed to go out that afternoon, Burke actually instructed Mr. Brogan, who knows about all this stuff now, to sit in a chair by the bed in the corner and not move until he returned.

turned. Okay, Blair Witch, what the fuck?

So he did. He sat in the chair.

He didn't ask questions at first. And then when Burke left the house, he waited until he was out of sight, because remember, this guy just joined this whole thing.

He just wanted money.

Yeah. He's not going to save your ass.

So Burke's still a bad person.

And also, he doesn't give a shit.

Like, this is not a good guy.

This is somebody who just doesn't give a shit.

Exactly. So when he tells him, you got to sit by by this corner of the bed near the straw in the corner.

He's like, sure, sure, sure.

So he sits there. Burke leaves.

Once he's out of his sight, Brogan just leaves the house.

He was like, I'm not doing that.

So he left the house, and then Mrs. Gray, the lodger, who thought that he was acting very strange, she's now alone in the house.

Yeah. And she takes this opportunity to investigate whatever it was by the bed that Burke was definitely trying to hide and was definitely trying to have like guarded by Mr. Brogan.

So she starts poking around the straw pile in the bed, next to the bed, excuse me.

And she found the nude body of Mary Daugherty.

Can you imagine? Blood all around her mouth and nose.

Why did she have blood around her mouth and nose?

Because she had been violently strangled.

And probably, I'm assuming, they might have like hit her or something.

Oh, my God. Something bad happened there.

And she also had fallen from her stool.

Right. I don't know if she had any, like, traumatic fall there.

So she literally finds this naked old woman who was clearly murdered in a pile of straw in the corner of their bedroom.

Wow. So she knows why she was sent out the night before.

So she immediately tells her husband.

She's like, we got to get the fuck out of here.

And the two of them start gathering up all their belongings, and they're like, we're getting the fuck out of here.

But then. so mrs gray is packing and mr gray started carrying things downstairs and as this is happening he ran into helen mcdougal i knew one of those fuckers was lurking and when he ran into helen mcdougal he demanded that she explain what the fuck was going on like he was like you tell me why the fuck there's a body in that bedroom yeah like you tell me and at first she tried to just like dismiss the question yeah because she's a little butthead but she kept but he kept pushing He was like, no, you literally can't dismiss a body in your bedroom.

Like, you need to explain that.

A naked old woman's body in your bedroom.

Like, tell me what that's about.

The fuck? And so she finally broke down and said, I suppose you know very well what it is.

I don't, though. And then she begged Mr. Grey not to say anything and then offered him several shillings in exchange for silence.

And then Helen told Mr. Grey that Doherty had died that night from an overdose of drink yeah right bitch why is her mouth all bloody but she he did not believe of course he was like no and then she decided to switch her tactics you remember innocent mcdougal over here remember everybody i don't remember because i always had her number poor innocent helen she had nothing to do with this fuck helen she decided to change her tactics when mr gray wasn't gonna believe the she overdosed on drinks so we stripped her naked and tied her in a pile pile of straw.

Yeah. So she was like, okay, and she started trying to convince him to join in on the scheme.

He's like, yeah, I have a conscience, though.

That's the only problem.

Helen's also an actual piece of shit.

All four of these assholes are pieces of shit.

I knew it. I knew there was too much going on for her not to know about.

And the fact that she went along with it and didn't get paid is, like, wild.

Yeah. It truly is. Even more.

Yeah, truly. Like, I'm not saying, like, well, sure, they were getting paid, so that's why they did it, it but it's like wow you weren't even in on this yeah you weren't even like what the hell was going on in your head you were still cool with it yep and so she couldn't convince anything to she couldn't convince them to join the scheme she wasn't getting a promise of silence from them so she followed them into town oh shit and they ran into laird in town oh i'm so nervous somehow the grays the grays agreed to join laird and mcdougall at a nearby public house for like a a drink.

And the women continued to try to convince them to stay quiet.

They bought them rounds of drinks.

They used every argument they could to try to convince them that this was something that was fine ethically.

Y 'all don't drink a drink that they buy you.

What's good is they were very unpersuasive.

The Grays got a bunch of free drinks out of the deal.

There you go. And they left the bar that afternoon and went straight to the police.

I love that. I love that they're They're like, you know what?

Yeah, we could use a few brewskis.

You can buy me some drinks first. Yeah.

But when they went to the police, they were made to wait several hours for someone to even listen to their story.

Oh, good. Yeah. That checks.

So when Mr. Gray was finally able to tell his story to a police sergeant, the officer said that Gray was simply a disgruntled tenant looking to cause problems for his landlords.

I'd be like, do you want to like maybe go talk to anyone about this, though?

So that's what he was like.

Do you want to do you want to come back to the house?

And, like, check and see if the body's still there.

And maybe come see this corpse in the corner of her room?

Do you want to do that?

So they were like, yeah, totally.

So he went with Mr. Gray to the home of Burke and McDougal.

The body was gone. Burke confirmed the sergeant's theory, saying that the Grays were former tenants and that he'd had to turn them out for bad conduct.

Oh, please. So Burke was like, yeah, you're right.

Like, they're just shitty.

They just suck. They're just shitty tenants.

But then the officer did a little search of the home.

And there he found spatters of blood on the bedsheets.

spreadsheets yep and the floor and like and this was all where she had been killed before being brought to Knox yeah and it all matched up with what Gray had told the police right it was the same room it was this the spatters made sense for what had happened so when asked Burke and McDougal gave very inconsistent stories about who the woman was when she left and this alone was enough for The police to be like you two need to come in and we're gonna question you because they were like you can't agree Who she was or when she even left like are you kidding me in your house?

Like she's literally in your fucking house.

So burke and mcdougall were taken down to the police station for questioning The next day officers went back to burke's home to do a more thorough search and they found more blood stains And they also found mary daugherty's blood stained clothing Meanwhile, additional officers – they also brought a police surgeon, Dr. Black.

They all went to Dr. Knox's address where they discovered Docherty's body being readied for dissection.

Oh, my. Yeah. So they had the bloody clothing and the body now in their possession.

Holy shit. Now, more officers were sent to Hare and Laird's boarding house, where they informed Margaret Laird that Captain Stewart wished to see her husband.

So as they had done with the Grays, Laird tried to just dismiss the whole thing.

The whole evening events are being misunderstood here.

She overdosed. We didn't do anything.

It was just drunken revelry.

But she was very unsuccessful, just as they were.

And both Hare and Laird were taken into custody as well.

And Burke and McDougal now were officially arrested after being questioned.

Hare and Laird are just being brought in for questioning.

So throughout the fall of 1828, Burke and Hare made tons of reckless and very risky decisions.

In the beginning, they were doing things pretty undercover.

They got so fucking reckless at the end.

Like it's really wild to watch. It's a true downfall for them.

But they were so fucking brazen.

and so weirdly confident that they could get away from this.

It is crazy how confident they were.

That's the thing. Like, Burke was even trying to explain away why Daugherty was in his house.

Like, why her body was in his house.

Like, it's wild. And that just goes to show how fucking, like, delusional they were or, like, confident.

It's like, what? Like, you really thought that was going to make sense or that was really going to work?

Wait until you hear the story he tells.

You want to hear the— because he told one story and now this is the other story he tells.

Oh, okay. So his first formal explanation for why Docherty's body was in his home, according to Burke, he and McDougall had begun their day like any other day.

Any other day. And suddenly a man approaches him looking to have some shoes mended.

He's a cobbler, after all.

I literally forgot that.

Yeah. Burke had never seen the man.

He didn't remember his name.

He couldn't tell you anything about him.

But he agreed to help him out, and he took his shoes and began to work.

and while this stranger is while he's working on the stranger shoes this stranger just drags a trunk into his house while he's working on his shoes this can't be real and he's working he's just working and he's like I don't know why you have that crazy trunk in here but that's fine and Burke said it's so weird I could hear the man removing the ropes that were used to secure hear the trunk and then i found i i you know i heard this sound of a man like burying something under a pile of straw i think it was like that's the sound that i heard no i must go and i think that pile of straw was next to

the bed yeah it sounded like that i i've left and he said and then that man left me then i discovered what that man had left in my house and i tracked him down and i demanded that he come back and he removed this body and this guy said sure i will but i I can't come back until tomorrow morning to do it.

And he said, okay, my guy, I guess.

Okay, my guy. He said, all right, I guess I'll go back and just live with this naked dead body and a pile of straw in the corner of my bedroom for tonight.

As one does. And then you come back and you take this out.

And I didn't know him at all, but I just figured he was good on his word. Yeah, you know, he seemed like a trustworthy guy.

This murderer, he just seemed, you know, like...

This stranger with a dead body.

Who literally approached me in town.

I don't remember his name or his face.

What does he look like?

I'm going to tell you a damn thing about him.

He asked me to cobble a fucking shoe.

I said, sure, why not?

He came back to my house with me.

He drags a trunk in my house.

I hear him burying a body.

I find said body. Find him in town and say, hey, you better come get that body out of my house.

And he says, I'll do it tomorrow morning.

And you say, I believe you.

I believe you, sir.

I think you will come back.

I think you will come back and get this body.

I'm shooketh. And he said this to investigators like they were not going to be like, are you fucking shitting me?

Are you shitting my dick, Burke?

Are you really saying this story to me, a seasoned fucking investigator?

And I'm going to go, wow, that what bad luck.

Did they even like – What shitty luck Burke has.

Did they even give him an answer?

Were they even – did they – were they just like, you know what, we have to go now.

You're going to jail.

Bye. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and then, well, because I'm sure it was one of those things where he went through that whole thing, and they all just stared at him, and you could hear the blink, blink, blink, blink.

Because then he was like, yeah, and you know what's crazy?

I met that woman earlier in the day.

Stop. He couldn't stop.

This isn't absurd enough.

We have to add on to it.

He goes, yeah, she was begging for money.

And he said, out of the kindness of my heart, I invited her back to my house for a meal and for some drinks.

drinks and she returned to town after that after I had fed her after I had oh so she given her alcohol she left my house and she went back into town and I said goodbye I hope you have a great day I hope that I have fed you well I hope I hope I have done I I hope I have done what I'm the teachings have told me to do to feed you to bring you in and I send you back out to town he goes I never saw her again until I never saw her again until that man left her dead body in my house Like, what a coincidence.

And he says a day or two later, the stranger sent two men who Burke had never met before to retrieve the body.

And he goes, one of those men, who I had never seen before, came to my house, and his name was William Hare.

So now he is claiming that this stranger that dragged a trunk into his house that contained a dead woman who he had met earlier that day, brought to his house to feed and give drink because he was just so kind sent back into fucking town to be murdered by this stranger that dragged her in the trunk in his house and hid her in a pile of straw in the corner of his bedroom he claims that he went back into town found this man said you need to come get this body out of my house this man said i'll come back later this man said i'm sending two of my guys to come get this lady and he said sure these guys

show up up at his house and he says never saw him before just two strangers to me but one of them was william hair like motherfucker you've been seen around town i could ask like joe schmo from down the street like hey you know burke and heron they'd be like oh yeah those fuckers i'm shook like you're well known in town you not only are you friends your wives are friends you have that You're a squad of four.

Yeah. What? Yep. It's unbelievable.

It's unhinged behavior.

And this is fucking ridiculous.

It's incredible that he told this story thinking it was going to do anything but make everybody go, what?

But you know why? Every part of the story makes sense for why he put it in there.

as absurd as it is he was trying to explain one why people because he knew he had been seen everywhere he had been seen with this woman he had been seen with burt he had been seen with hair he had been seen everywhere so he's he's doing this to say why people had seen him with Mary Dougherty both in town and at his home because neighbors had seen her in his home two why her body and traces of blood were found in his house he's explaining that away of course why the body had been by seen by gray at the house but then but then when the officers came back later that day it was gone yeah he's saying

well those two men came and took her away so that's what i have to tell you and it's also to say why hair had been seen selling the body to dr knox the next day because he was one of those strange men who came and got that body i have like i've said it before i'll say it again i have to go like what it's it's absurd it's ridiculous and i'm like wow you really hit every you tried to hit every possible thing that could connect you to this and explain every part of this but in the stupidest way imaginable seriously like really wild and even more wild and unfortunate for him was that it didn't line

up with fucking mcdougall's of fucking confession about it because they didn't talk about this she's like nah me and my hubby are bros with them sorry we murdered one of the main discrepancies between his version of events that he just told that wild yarn that he just spun oh my god i love when people call like a crazy story yarn yes the main difference and the main issue between that yarn and the one that macdougal's gonna tell is that she was like oh um yeah we spent the day um drinking with william hair and his uh his lady margaret laird because we're like oh like one of the guys who came to

get the body that burke didn't has never met and didn't know who he was you guys spent multiple multiple multiple months if not years was it years i mean months at the the very least it's like and you didn't ever like i'm happy that you didn't but like it's mind -boggling to me yeah that not once did you sit down and say hey like if we do end up getting caught we gotta this is what we'll say hey no hey helen hey laird come on over this is our story that we should stick to yeah you fucking imbeciles yep like what yep what yep it's wild i have to go I love thinking about Burke being like, and then

these two men show up and they come to get the body.

And I said, oh, my God, this stranger's in my house coming to get this body of this woman that I, out of the kindness of my heart, I fed and I sent into town.

And then she was dragged into a trunk into my house.

This is wild. These two strange men.

And these two strange men, one of them is William Hare.

It's wild. I've never met that man before in my life.

I don't even know who he is.

I don't know him. I don't know him, investigators.

I do not know him. and then they're like cool thank you and they go into the next room and they're like hey Helen can you tell me what you're doing today and she's like oh my god absolutely we were drinking all afternoon with William Hare and his lady Margaret Laird and it's like wow you know people never cease to surprise me never never after McDougal pretty much gave up the ghost there after she shot a fucking megalodon sized hole in that story story like the fuck ripped a hole the size of the ozone layer in that story i think that's healing oh good for that yeah good for that news yeah we closed

it up a little we're doing something i don't know electric cars you know what positivity yeah i like that look at the joy candle look at that look at that joy candle anyway she's standing up straight she cute um but after that burke was like okay yeah i murdered her like he was just like he was literally like He's like, so sorry that I took a creative writing class a few weeks ago and got confused with that while I was here, but I did kill her.

Because they just came over and were like, hey, you drank with them today.

We know that you're like real bro -y with William Hare.

Do you want to edit that statement you gave?

And that's all it took.

He was like, yeah, I murdered Mary Dougherty and several other people.

that would literally like from the sounds of how close these couples were that would be like me say like if john like walked into a room and the police were like hey do you know that man i'd be like never seen him before in my life never seen him and they're like but you've referenced him on this podcast multiple times and i think that literally might be your sister's husband i'm like no i've literally never seen him i don't know that man i don't know her he's a stranger like i don't know what it's truly wild it's really you can see now like they were just dumb just dumb angry guys that's all

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Okay. Because although Burke is agreeing that he knows Hare, he hasn't thrown him completely under the bus yet.

Hare also just gives me more diabolical vibes.

Yeah, and Hare's going to turn on Burke.

He's going to turn on McDougal, and they were like, he's going to turn on Laird. I don't think he's got any kind of loyalty to these people.

And Hare is the one that does the actual suffocating, right?

Yeah, I think he's the aggressor.

Okay. For sure. But they both are.

But Hare is just something about him.

Yeah, something about him.

You're right. It makes me a little scared.

Agreed. A little more scared of him.

Agreed. I don't know why.

I thought it was kind of funny that, like, Burke essentially, like, implicated Hare already, but, like, go off King, I guess.

Like, sure, Hare is going to turn on Burke.

Sure. But despite that, Ray's assumptions seemed to have been pretty well placed because he offered hair immunity in exchange for a full confession and hair happily accepted.

He said, glad that I got my neck out of the halter.

And as for poor Bill Burke, well, he must go hang, I suppose.

Sold his friend right up the river.

Oh, my God. And was like, guess he's got to hang.

He never gave a shit about him.

No, he didn't give a shit about anybody.

I don't give a shit about either of them.

Fuck both of these losers.

the moment they were arrested and put in a jail cell, all four of the accused were prevented from seeing or speaking to each other.

They couldn't communicate at all until the trial.

And this makes it that it was probably a huge surprise to Burke that Hare had literally turned completely against him because he had no idea.

He went into trial being like, and then it's like all of a sudden hair is like i'm the star witness it's like what like that must have been like excuse me when he probably especially didn't expect that because he was the one that really did more exactly like actual stuff like are you fucking kidding me so as um as lisa rosner pointed out when the warrants for arrest and incarceration were handed down burke and mcdougall probably had some idea That the Lord Advocate was being given information by either Laird or Hare.

The Lord Advocate? I know.

Isn't that like a wild, like, okay, Scott Dissett.

Right. Step aside. I'm the Lord Advocate.

Lord Advocate. Like, so he probably had an idea that information was being given by Hare and Laird. Like, the first warrant for the murder of Mary Dougherty was sworn out against all four.

And so was the second one, which was for the murder of James Wilson.

And only after Hare's detailed confession, the warrant for Wilson's murder was amended and was only against Burke and McDougal.

So Hare had no, no, no against it.

The same happened for the warrant for the murder of Mary Patterson, which we only named Burke and McDougal as the perpetrators in that one too.

Oh. So now Burke and McDougal are being.

Wow. I did not see that coming.

I didn't either. Damn.

Now, like we said throughout this whole thing, it's very unclear the exact extent that Helen McDougall played in these murders.

She obviously participated in some way, be it an outside side thing, you know, like she definitely had knowledge of what was happening there.

Like definitely had it.

But throughout the murder spree and confessions, William Burke went to great lengths to completely distance Helen from any of the schemes.

and to protect her from any prosecution.

And for that reason, Burke probably felt even doubly betrayed when he learned that Hare hadn't just sold him out, but had also sold McDougal out.

Because throughout the entire thing, he had tried to protect her.

And it's like now he made sure to – and that's the thing, you know Hare was just so fucking happy to be able to put McDougal in that whole thing.

I mean, he literally wanted to kill her.

Yeah. Now, over the centuries after this, Helen MacDougall's name has kind of disappeared from the retelling of this story.

Like she's in there, but no one points to her as like, what the fuck were you doing?

Yeah, exactly. I do.

But at the time of Hare's confession, which they basically were, they were really going off of Hare's confession at this point, he identified her as equally responsible for the crimes.

And so Burke and McDougal were the only two prosecuted for the murders.

Are you kidding me?

Burke and McDougal were indicted December 8th, 1828, for the murders of Mary Dougherty, James Wilson, and Mary Patterson.

Their trial began December 24th, and it went a full 24 hours.

It was presided over— Went into Christmas?

It went into Christmas.

It was presided over by a panel of four justices.

It began at 9 a .m., and from the moment the doors were opened, the courtroom was packed.

Yeah, because back then you could just, like, fucking find your way into a courtroom.

Oh, yeah. And they just wanted to see these ghouls.

They had read a ton about them in the paper, because there was tons of media surrounding this case.

And after they read the indictments, both of the accused pleaded not guilty.

guilty before the trial could begin however burke's attorney or argued it was inappropriate for his client to be tried for three unconnected murders and after a long discussion the justices agreed with burke's attorney interest and ruled in favor of trying one case at a time okay so they didn't want to try the three unconnected murders in one trial so after they announced the decision uh lord advocate william ray was given the opportunity to choose which charge he wanted to begin with and he chose the murder of docherty because he figured it was the strongest case right so the trial went on with several

witnesses saying they had seen docherty with burke throughout the day um and also because blake excuse me burke had claimed the woman was a heavy drinker at least one witness refuted that claim telling the jury she quote never saw her worse surfer liquor oh um and after also the prosecution laid out the evidence of the murder including the body having been discovered by the grays in burke's house the blood stains on the clothing the blood stains on the bedding on the floor the examination of the body showing very clear evidence of strangulation yep and that she did not die of an overdose yep um

the strength of the physical evidence was definitely bolstered by the crown's key witness hair william hair He testified that it was Burke who plotted with McDougal to kill Dougherty for money, and he said, quote, he had an old wife in the house and that it was a shot for the doctors.

And he went, so Hare went a step further, telling the jury that Dougherty had left the house several times, but had been enticed to come back inside each time by none other than Helen McDougal.

So throughout the trial, Lord Advocate William Ray and his assistant prosecutors were very, very deliberate and very measured in their questioning of Hare on the stand Okay They were very careful to avoid any kind of question that might incriminate him in any of the crimes Well, yeah, I mean, that makes sense He did, however, admit on the stand that he had sold the body to Knox Okay But his participation in the murder of Doherty was otherwise very minimized.

Otherwise, his role in the actual murders, completely ignored.

There were no witnesses called by the defense.

They just completely ignored it.

And after the evidence was given and closing statements were made, the jury deliberated.

It was a little after 8 a .m. on December 25th on Christmas.

I'm surprised by that.

Took about an hour, and they returned a guilty verdict for Burke's participation in the murder of Mary Daugherty, and he was sentenced to hang.

Merry Christmas, motherfucker.

The charge against Helen McDougal was found to be unfounded.

Oh. So that's why you don't hear her name and her guilty ass in this story.

What's even worse is it's 100 % a certainty that Margaret Laird was involved in the whole scheme.

Yeah, she was paid.

But she got no consequences.

And what about Hair?

Yep. So it's so wild to me.

While Burke did his best to shield Helen of consequences for the crimes that they had committed, it was really the defense attorney, Henry Cockburn, who saved her from having to hang.

I mean, yeah. Throughout the trial, he painted a picture of McDougal as a dutiful wife who lived with seeing many things which are better imagined than told, basically saying she saw some shit, it she knew what he would do to her so she kept her mouth shut and she did what she was supposed what she was told to do and it was true that she hadn't informed the police of burke's crimes but it was only because she quote felt oblig obliged to make false statements in order to protect burke and avoid basically becoming destitute yeah like go and in this time especially that is an argument she didn't

want to be thrown out on the streets because that was almost certain death eventually Right.

And so they were basically being like she feared for her own life, which doesn't give her, like that doesn't spare her from being a criminal, but it also is like a way to defend her in a court of law.

Yeah, exactly. You know, like it makes it like you question it.

I understand the argument.

Exactly. It also helped her case immensely that there was no evidence and no testimony that could even slightly connect her to the murders.

Right. Which she was found not guilty in the end.

Now on the morning of January 25th 1828 A crowd of nearly 25 ,000 People gathered in Lawn Market Which is a town square off High Street And they watched William Burke Hang in the gallows Damn so people were like abandoning their Christmas meals Just to be like Let's go watch this man Well this was January 25th Maybe I did say December by accident No you probably said January No you said it right you were right a month later okay okay but what's kind of ironic is uh burke's body was donated to the medical college the following day it was dissected by professor alexander monroe the doctor that they

were looking for initially when they accidentally knocked on dr nox's door yo isn't that wild and he was dissected in front of an audience of nearly 20 000 people Wow.

Yep. And when he finished the dissection, Dr. Monroe, apparently he did this thing, and it's called an anatomist ritual, it was called.

Okay, love that. He dipped his quill into the blood still contained in Burke's head and wrote the following declaration in blood.

This is written with the blood of William Burke, who was hanged at Edinburgh on 28th, oh, it was on the 28th, excuse me, I got it wrong.

That's okay. the 28th of january 1829 for the murder of mrs campbell or docherty the blood was taken from his head on the 1st of february 1829 they were on that spooky as fuck they were on some wild shit back then they really were that's on like some opium thought process yeah yeah like you know what we should do we should make a declaration dip a quill into his head of his skull yeah like Like, and y 'all were really God -fearing?

I don't know about that.

I mean, if you're worried about whether Helen McDougal just went on to live her life, I can help you not worry about that.

I was. That was my next question after I got past the fact that they just, like, wrote a quick little post -it with his fucking blood.

She was released from custody following the trial, and she tried to go home.

How'd that work out?

But she was met by a large group who'd assembled outside of her house and made it pretty clear that she better get the fuck out of edinburgh or they were gonna make sure that she didn't get out of there alive it's pretty assumed that she fled the city later like very quickly after that but um no one knows what happened to her after that okay she left edinburgh hit me up with the deets on hair people do think she was killed by an angry mob or that she changed her name completely and lived in like like isolated wow um i will say the family of jamie wilson yeah the um the young man who everyone literally

knew and loved they protested against hare's freedom good and aggressively petitioned the government to reconsider the immunity he was given in exchange for his testimony the wilson's petition was given very serious consideration but the crown ultimately decided that they were going to keep the immunity for his testimony and hair was very unfortunately released from custody on february 5th damn but unfortunately for hair the public knew what he fucking did and his very much equal participation in the murders they knew about that too it took less than a day for a mob to assemble outside the boarding

house intending to uh kill him themselves.

For his own protection, he was taken into police custody where he was dressed and disguised and escorted out of the city via the road to Carlisle.

Although he was never seen or heard from again, it's believed he either went to England or went back to Ireland and was never seen or heard from again.

You know that motherfucker murdered again.

100%. Because he got, he was the one that, in my opinion, was way more diabolical.

I think they were both fucked up and diabolical.

But something about hair.

There was more to that.

Something about him.

yeah he got away with it holy shit yeah that's crazy they should look into some fucking unsolved they should i know wherever he went i actually want to look back and see if there's any connections later there's gotta be i'll let you know if we find anything i don't think he just like was like well i'll do you later i'll just live a very quiet life after this what about his life probably bolstered so she was released from custody in mid -january and she left edinburgh for glasgow And while she was in Glasgow, she was discovered by an angry mob and had to be rescued by the authorities who put her

and her baby, she had a baby at this point, on a boat and sent her to Ireland.

Shit. Although we don't talk about, like when you read about this story, you don't hear a lot about what happened to Dr. Knox or his wrongdoing in all of this.

Right. He definitely claimed ignorance, for sure.

But he was confronted by authorities and they were like, you definitely knew something was amiss here.

You might not have known the details.

But it's pretty hard to believe that he had no idea that they were possibly murdering people to supply him with bodies.

Because that last body had very clear evidence.

Dougherty had clear evidence of being strangled and he turned his eyes the other way.

He also pretended like he didn't know that it was Jamie.

me. But what's weird is Burke, when he confessed, went out of his way to clear Knox of any wrongdoing as well.

He swore that Knox, quote, never encouraged, never taught or encouraged him to murder any person.

Yeah, I'm sure he didn't.

I think he just turned a blind eye.

And it's like, yeah, no one's saying, exactly, like no one's saying that he told you to go murder people, but like he knew you were.

He didn't tell you to stop murdering people.

Exactly. And it's like, Like, luckily, because he should definitely not be let off scot -free here, the public didn't forget his participation in everything either.

Good. And after public outrage, he willingly resigned from his position.

Bye, bitch. And Knox left Edinburgh several years later and resettled in London, where he died in 1882.

Peace out, motherfucker.

And that is the story of Birkinhair.

Girl, that's a wild tale.

And you did, like, a really great job telling it.

Thank you. You're welcome.

Thank you so much. I was like and thanks to Dave for like diving deep in that one.

I love Dave. We love Dave. He's notorious.

It's and you know what we got to we're working on another one that connects to this case.

Oh my god. And I think Dave described it as like a hearty boys like a hearty boys book but if there was serial killers and coffins.

Yeah that's exactly what he said actually i was present for that combo so it's gonna be great i'm intrigued this story just is like fascinating to me mainly because of the ending one how reckless and risky they get and brazen and now they just fuck everything up from within yeah to how hair william hair just i don't know what it is about him but i'm like you you're scared like burke is scary but like hair i'm like something about you and then the fact that he just gets away with it well you like asserted dominance by like killing his cousin he did it was like i also want to kill your wife he was just

and then he made sure that she had to go she had to get named in those indictments like yeah that's some like power shit and it's like scary like something happened between him and mcdougall i know right there's some weird advance that like she was like that she rebuffed from me yeah and he was not about to deal with that i mean like i just like really like made a leap there, but I don't know.

I don't know. I think, well, I think there's a Buffy episode recently where it was like, don't jump to conclusions.

And it's like, I don't, I just took, I think she says like, I just walked around the corner and their conclusions were.

Yeah, exactly. I think this is the same situation.

It's like, I don't think that's a leap.

You just walked around a corner and their conclusions were.

And with that being said, we were talking the other day, we're always like, oh my gosh, we should do like a chiller episode for a palate cleanser, which like we're still going to do.

But if we ever do like an intense case and you need a palate cleanser, or if you don't and you just want to listen to another show go listen to the re -watcher buffy the vampire slayer it's so much fun we're re -watching buffy elena has seen it a million gazillion trillion times but i never have and in the last episode they used a clip from taken of liam neeson saying i will find you and i will kill you and you don't know what that's in reference to and if that's and you should go listen and find out i don't know about you they They put fun clips in there and fun little sound things.

They put the. It's so fun, guys.

Like that, that podcast gives us the most joy in the entire world.

It's just fun, silly nostalgia.

Yeah, exactly. And if you don't know now, you know.

Yeah. Go listen to it.

So with that being said, we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird. But not as weird as hair.

Definitely not as weird as Burke and hair ever or McDougal or Laird, but never, ever, ever keep it as weird as hair because I don't even know how weird that motherfucker kept it but he kept it too weird I can tell you that much yeah he definitely kept it too weird so like bye See you next time.

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[버크와 헤어의 연쇄 살인: 에든버러를 뒤흔든 공포와 그 종말]-[Episode 448: Burke & Hare Part 2]

📋 Summary

버크와 헤어 사건: 1828년 에든버러의 잔혹한 범죄 기록

개요

범죄의 양상과 대담함

종말의 시작: 메리 도허티 사건

재판과 그 이후

결론

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript