Hey, weirdos, it's Ash.
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Hey, weirdos. It's me.
It's Alayna. What's going on?
How's your day? I hope it's awesome.
That's all I wanted to say.
No, I'm just kidding.
This is a message because I think a couple of episodes ago, we talked about how we are going back to the OG way of doing things.
we're doing two episodes a week two big old honk and delicious juicy episodes with one listener tale a month just as a little cherry little glitter on top of a crazy month and we're going to keep doing that but i think we were also debating what days would be best for this new two episode a week cadence because we figured you know from wednesday to monday is a long wait for us and for you too much we'd all be sad we don't want that so we finally came up with a good good cadence.
We're going to drop episodes on Monday and Thursday from here on out.
So Mondays, Thursdays, that's when they'll come out on Wondery Plus.
Then a week later, you will get them Monday and Thursday for everybody else.
So that's what we're going to do.
You deserve consistency.
We want to give it to you.
I know we didn't do that in the first like three years.
We were like, willy -nilly, whenever you get episodes, here it is.
But you know, we're in that consistency train and we want to stay on that and yeah I think this is going to work for everybody it just feels better we don't want that big chunk of time between episodes you don't either um so yeah that's what we're gonna do Mondays Thursdays new episodes we're excited about it it lets us really put more time and effort into these episodes which is what they deserve and what you deserve and we fucking love you and I can't wait to see you every Monday and Thursday I know no, I won't see you.
I realize that. I won't even hear you.
But it feels like I will, and you will hear me.
So we're all in this together.
We're best friends.
Thanks, guys. Mondays, Thursdays, whoop -whoop!
Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena.
I'm Ash. And this is Morbid.
it is and we're just coming off of a little celebratory moment yeah to see obituary last night live in somerville in somerville kids and we got to meet some of our fucking podcast babies babies it was beautiful it was elegant you're you probably saw a picture it looks like the last supper but awesome it does look like the last supper but better but awesome because there is no brutus oh oh ash's microphone is literally attempting to assault her it's falling off of the table mikey to the rescue he's gonna fix it all right we're back and better than ever and And Elena's got a correction.
It's also, it's Judas.
I know it's Judas. Brutus is the Caesar one.
Judas, Brutus, they're all betraying people.
I like Caesar dressing.
Am I right? Yeah. That's my hot take.
That's my hot take.
That's my hot take today, love.
I also love Caesar dressing as long as it's not too fishy.
Yeah, that's fucking foul.
Sometimes you get one that's like, ooh, that's a lot of anchovy.
Oh my gosh. I was going to say, do you know why I wanted to tell you something?
It's really hard to tell you something that you don't already know.
Don't already know.
It's a lot of souls coming out today.
I am. We are both on like three hours of sleep.
Yeah. Because we we got to party hardy with our fucking friends.
Yeah it was wild. Like I got to be an adult and go out and by party hardy I mean Elena ordered a Shirley Temple.
Just like a straight up Shirley Temple.
I know. Yeah. Nothing added to it.
And it was great. I'm happy about that.
You know what Madison taught me last night.
Madison from Obituary which you should go see and buy tickets to plug plug they are amazing she taught me to mix and I think it's a Harry Styles song to mix um Diet Coke and red wine and um Cabernet specifically sounds like absolutely disgusting yeah and I was like I trust you I took a sip life -changing it's it sounds fucking crazy it's so good I just hate diet anything it doesn't end doesn't end up tasting diet because the I mean I like diet coke.
I was gonna say I literally hate the taste of diet coke.
Well you could do it with regular coke yeah it it almost has like a sangria vibe.
Oh that's interesting.
Yeah you should you should try it.
You should try it. Stop copying me.
Oh oh yeah I got yelled at.
I I accidentally because I don't look at any like I usually don't see any comments because I'm just like uh I don't go on the the internet anymore but we go on the internet to post what we want to post exactly and i'm out get that bread i'm out and i happen to be on instagram and i got one of those like banner notifications and it was somebody on a morbid post being like hey has anyone else noticed how fucking annoying elena is that she just repeats all the funny things that ash says in a like different voice and i was like they said has anyone else no yeah has anyone else noticed how annoying
lane is and i was like why are you here i was like what did that get you sometimes i wonder if people think that's kind of like endear me to them and i'm like oh my god like i know she sucks you're so nice for saying that it's like no now ash fucking hates you yeah i don't like you don't be mean to my sister you fucking that doesn't work you fucking putz like i got like whatever it's like pit us against each other i'm like it's not gonna work do you think ash is gonna like you for that like ash is good like they we ride at dawn for each other like it's not not we could like punch each other in the face
one day well like we never have we never have but we could and then elena could call me and be like hey i need you and i'd be like what time yeah let's go like i'm here actually so who's cow we taken who's cow we taken i feel like i can't say that because i've never seen that movie that's a great movie but is that the town but yeah yeah it is the town hey look at me yeah so i just you know i just was like wow okay um you need to um you need to sign out of the morbid account on your i do need to because then you don't get those banner notification because that was the problem i don't go looking
because of course not because whenever i do i accidentally that's the only thing you'll see is you'll miss all the nice things that people say yeah which is sad and you only will see that one nasty one because they always make sure to be like you know has anyone noticed that elena is annoying and i'm like okay um so sign out of that but then you might need to also because i need to do this you might need to unfollow morbid which which is so sad.
It's so sad. But I follow Morbid because like it's my podcast. Say it.
Yes, my podcast. Oh my God, you're so annoying.
You're so annoying.
But so I'll like scroll by and it gives you like that like little like two or three comments.
I always see the meanest thing.
Always. Why can't Ash speak?
And I'm like, because brain damage.
Okay. I don't know.
Those are always the ones that show and I'm like, wow, Instagram, like that's fake as fuck.
Why do you just show me the mean ones?
I saw one recently definitely that was like wow has a podcast but she can't fucking talk all right well there's two of us for when i can't talk and i just gotta ask again i know we've all asked this before what's wrong with you like who does that like who just goes like what do you get out of that like that girl who was like has anyone noticed that elena's annoying i'm like even if you gathered an army of people that were like we are the riders of elena being annoying and you started a group and you you had meetings and like you had like a special handshake that you did that'd be like do you feel
good like what what else what are you getting out of it also why are you doing a census on my post that's the thing and it's like on my post that's annoying in the mail i don't need it on my post but i was and also that that person followed me and i was like all right well hate following is a thing that people love to do well it's a it's a hate following it's like you love me i was literally like sounds like someone protests too much thou doth i don't think you find me annoying i think you like me i know it's like it's one of those things where you're like oh my god you shouldn't pay it any mind
like of course but sometimes you just gotta vent it out which that's the thing it's like normally like we've really gotten to a point years through this that we don't pay it any mind like the constructive stuff sure but like totally just people being dicks like that like that's not constructive at all like you can fuck yourself that's just But like that kind of shit is like, you're just you're being an asshole for the sake of being an asshole.
And I don't know what you got out of it.
But I sure hope it gave you some kind of jolly because I hope it sounds like you need it.
Well, also, you're just like creating a negative space for yourself.
And yeah, like, I speak from experience.
If you put things out into the world that are negative, even if you're not talking shit, like even if you're just talking negatively, it comes back to you.
It's true. And then you're just attracting negative, negative karma is the thing man attract abundance that's why we're and and you know it took like a while to get here but that's why we're in a place where we're just like you know what whatever and we're also in a place of just like we're gonna keep trying to like build people up that deserve to be built up like that's why we shout out different creators for you guys to go check out and you're also because that's what queen of that i don't even do that as much as you like you're so so philanthropic it's no it's just fun and it's really fun to
see when like like especially on tiktok i've been seeing it lately and it's like really making me happy you guys like fucking kill it yeah because like morbid listeners will go follow these people that we mentioned right and then they'll be like oh i got i came here for morbid and it's so fun to see because then it's like they are and they're always like oh i'm so excited to have found this this is so fun and it's like i love like blowing those people up you know what that's called community that's called community that's called my brothers in christ hell yeah i love that's what we are that's
called my brothers in brutism you guys are the real ones so don't think that we take like the the isn't elena annoying ones as like our listeners that's that's not who we listen to don't worry about it can't talk you guys yeah exactly like you guys are the real ones we know who you are we know we know who this community is we met a lot of you last night it was so cool it was is wonderful and you guys are magical that will never not be cool yeah so we know who you are so don't worry they don't represent you but anyways I just wanted to put it out there that like you know if you're doing that kind
of shit on the internet like you might you you should probably reevaluate where you sit in life because that's a really pathetic thing to do one more thing what I just have to tell you if you're doing that I'm literally just picturing you sitting in a crusty basement picking your toe cheese that's actually very true that's exactly because i'm like you're not happy and i know you yeah fungal infection and i'm sorry about it but because because think about all the times in your life that you have talked shit like that or been somebody like that when like you're younger and like all that it was always
in the worst fucking times of your life it was never when you were happy it was never when you were a fulfilled person no and that's why i'm just like wow that's sad no i can honestly say that's a bummer for you i have never written a nasty comment yeah somebody else's instagram so strange what the fuck is wrong with you it's so strange have i subtweeted many many many people in my day abso -fucking -lutely but i'm not going on podcasts being like oh one time i even subtweeted drew when we were in our breakup stage and he texted me and he was like did you just fucking subtweet me and i was like
i don't know what the fuck you're talking about like i don't even know what a subtweet is who are you okay He's like, we dated for a year and a half.
I know you're the sub -tweet queen of the century.
You're like, I don't know him.
I'm like, who are you?
And then I'm like, wait, I love you.
Marry me. Oh, love.
I know. What a wild ride.
That was a wild ride.
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i never i don't think i ever knew that yeah there's a pretty viable one sorry did they come about recently or have they been no it's been out there and we'll talk about them but it's one of those things where you just can't pin it it's like well probably because they um washed down the crime scene yeah that might have something there was there was that whole whole nonsense and like didn't investigate for like a minute yeah for a solid minute a brief period of time but by so at the end of the of part one i was talking about how you know they really had exhausted the few leads that they got and the state
police had actually publicly stated in this case we've got a hope that the killer killers may have told someone who has a conscience who will come forward so they're not even hoping now that the killer has a conscience they're hoping that the person that the killer tells this to they have a conscience and they come forward also some killers are like pretty good at secrets yeah so that's you should probably that tends to be like one of their their main traits i feel like they should explore other avenues yeah investigative work you never want to hear investigators go well the thing we're banking
on is that this guy just straight up confesses to someone you might be waiting a while and not only that confesses to someone that has a conscience it's like that's a lot i don't want to rest all my hopes and dreams on that i'd rather rest it on like you investigating the case same you know but either way that sucks so i had mentioned it before but But in 1978, Speedway police were dealing with a lot more shit than they normally did.
This super small Midwestern town was really being pushed like to the limit of its resources.
We mentioned in part one that there was these random horrific bombings that were seeming and ended up being connected to the murder of a woman.
And that woman was 69 year old housewife Julia Skyfers.
She was shot to death under very mysterious circumstances.
the bombings that followed were just more stress and mystery added on to this whole thing um they happened on september 1st three bombings happened in speedway that saturday there were two more and then another one the next day and the last one happened the following day at speedway high school oh my god so it was just constant a bombing is like one of my biggest yeah and they just don't know they were being put in like uh trash cans and stuff and at the high school i I think they were found in, like, a gym bag.
Like, somebody picked up a gym bag and it exploded.
Oh, my God. And, like, people were wounded by shrapnel.
I bet, yeah. Like, it was tough.
And you said they went unsolved too, right?
The bombings? They did for a while.
So these crimes were taking up all the resources and time that this really small town PD had to offer.
They were not able to muster up a whole lot more for anything else.
And as November turned to December, state and local police were really just grasping at anything that could take the Burger Chef case forward. They just had nothing.
But they were not entirely without leads, because Speedway police were continuing to receive leads from the public, from telephone calls, letters.
And in the end, they actually produced at least 36 leads that they could deem at least slightly credible, which isn't a whole lot.
But really, Really, the best leads that they had were the tip from that young couple who had been approached by those two men in the parking lot of the Burger Chef.
Because they were packing.
And this was because they were necking.
And this was like an hour or so before the robbery and kidnapping occurred.
So this was a pretty good witness statement to have. The police department didn't have a sketch artist on Chef.
On Chef. On staff. I didn't even catch that.
I'm tired. I need more caffeine.
but they they also didn't have the funds or resources available to get a professional one right so detectives found and hired robin england who was an art student at ball state university ball state also was the niece of one of the investigators on the case and they were willing to create sculpture bus from the descriptions that were provided by the witnesses and those witnesses later said that the bus were quote between 95 and 100 accurate wow bus are always So interesting to me.
These bus are very interesting looking bus.
Oh, I will say I saw that little little glimmer in your they're very interesting looking.
And a composite drawing was made from the bus and it was circulated throughout the press.
OK. Now and again, we have the witnesses saying that these are very accurate.
So that means that the composite images are pretty accurate.
Ninety five to one hundred percent.
That's huge. Right.
And they were at one point we're going to see that they were able to find a couple of guys that literally are like dead ringers for these guys and somehow they weren't able to place them in speedway at the time of the murders and it like shocked me are they in the suspect no so photographs of these busts were circulated around the media and a statement from state police sergeant chuck hibbert was released saying we are not calling these two men suspects we just want to talk to them which is like we just want to talk to you literally i was just gonna say yeah we just want to talk man we just want
to talk man hands up yeah it's off the record it's fine um so but beside these witness statements and witness accounts this was really the biggest evidence they had was these composite images so detectives hoped that publishing them was maybe gonna jog someone's memory around that time someone from the public that was around the burger chef had maybe caught glimpse of these guys and seeing the composite image was going to make them go oh shit yeah i did see them and they were hoping this person would come forward help with an id however the images definitely prompted people to call in about 600
calls to police wow none of them produced a concrete lead not one now do you think that was because the tip sucked or do you think that was because the police department sucked i don't know that's the thing combination honestly that is that's kind of the theme of this case everyone sucks is like could it have been solved if they just did their jobs better yes and it's like yeah like i think so i think i said it last time or it might have been after we finished recording if they hadn't cleaned up that crime scene they could have dusted for prints and obviously maybe couldn't have done a lot with them
back then but now yeah boom boom we'd have them and it's like at this point we have no idea what evidence was left at that scene nothing there could have been dna at that scene there could have been anything at that scene there could have been hell there could have been a phone they could have taken a polaroid photograph of themselves at that scene and left it on the floor or the counter and it was thrown away yeah we literally don't know there could have been boot prints a mural painted on the wall by one of them we're going in different directions here like it could have just i'm i'm just an artiste
you're like there could have been a razor scooter belonging to one of the murderers that had dna on it and they parked it but you know what there could have been i'm saying we don't know because they just cleaned it all up and threw it away it could have hit one of those detectives in the ankle and he didn't even fucking know it exactly we don't know that is the most frustrating thing it's not that they like oh there was blood and they cleaned it up it's like we don't fucking fucking no. We have no idea what evidence was at that scene that could have absolutely nailed these fuckers.
And it makes me crazy.
Well, if one of them had a beard, too, you're like, I know that shit was shed.
I know your shit was not taken care of.
It was shed. I know it.
So as 1978 came to an end, the murders were kind of starting to fade out of the papers.
That's fuck. People are starting to move on.
Nothing's happening in the case.
From the brutal killing of four youths in town.
And when I say people, I mean everyone but these poor victims' families who are still sitting there waiting for fucking justice.
And police are just hitting wall after wall after wall.
The reward money that the Burger Chef Corporation put out there, unclaimed, is sitting there.
And apparently, even the typically very chatty jailhouse informants could not help push anything forward. And they were actually there's a quote in the Indianapolis Star that said the Marion County jail whose prisoners are usually a goldmine of information about crimes in central Indiana had not yielded a single good tip about the murder.
Wow. Like that's pretty wild.
Now, with the public kind of fading away from this case, the headlines are fading away.
Investigators are now desperate to keep it in the papers, keep the public engaged.
Keep the pressure on these killers.
yeah they know they have to make up for what they've done right like what they haven't done for their negligence so the indianapolis star actually set up this new system and with the system readers could submit tips or other information anonymously okay which always helps I feel like it always gets people to talk more um and what they said was some of you may not realize you hold valuable information that just may add aid police in solving the crime and it said that it said do not sign the letter but put a five digit number at both the top and the bottom page then make a jagged tear across the bottom
of the sheet just above the number okay so i was like that seems like a lot that's very intricate can i just write in a lot of people are going to be intimidated by that a lot of people are going to fuck that process yeah i'm going to be honest if i i'd be like oh okay and then i'd read like put a five digit thing i'd be go, oh, okay.
And I'd start and then it would be like, also make this giant and I'd be like, I'm out.
The third thing you asked me to do, I'm out.
You know what that reminds me of?
And I don't know if it will make sense to anyone else.
It reminds me of the instructions for a Scantron test. Oh, that's absolutely going to make sense to everyone listening, I feel like.
You get what I'm saying?
Yeah. Yeah. Like your teacher would be like, okay, fill in this bubble with this specific pencil.
Do not fill in the bubbles that are colored like And you were like, I have so much anxiety right now.
Write your name up here.
Write your name on the bottom.
Write your class number here.
Yes. Write your class number here.
Don't you dare write your class number here.
Write my name over here.
And you're like, can I just take the test?
But what's my name?
What's my name, though?
I don't understand.
So the Stars reward desk immediately started receiving letters off of this because people were apparently not intimidated by it.
Okay. We're all like, we would suck at this.
But in 78, they were like, we're fine with it.
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so some weren't like super detailed uh like one came from johnson county from a man who said that he saw a suspicious man who bore a striking resemblance to the clean shaven man and this man was standing alone on stones crossing road on november 18th that's it all right just like Like saw this guy that looked like that guy without a beard standing on the street on that day over there.
I saw him. I saw him on that night and he was standing.
And he did not have a beard. That man was not sitting.
He was standing. And I imagine that these robbers, I imagine they were standing.
I'm like, did he look suspicious to you?
Case closed, my friends.
Or was he just waiting for a line?
thanks for that i guess like we'll keep that in mind that that road contained a man that was standing contained yeah so then there was other ones that were a little more detailed one came from a greenwood gas station attendant he wrote in saying that he actually recognized those bus as two men who'd shortchanged him in the early morning hours of november 18th i have something to say oh if a gas station attendant tells you something listen listen listen, in a criminal investigation.
I feel like they know.
Yeah, just in a criminal investigation.
Not like on a Tuesday.
Or in Urban Legend, the movie, when that poor man was just trying to scream, someone's in the backseat.
That man. And she was being a dick.
She was being such a bitch. That's one of those situations where you're like, you had the day you disturbed girls.
I don't know what to tell you.
That man is so sweet.
So sweet. And he was just trying to tell you something, and he's a gas station attendant.
Yeah, he knows. he knows they have seen some shit they're harbingers they tell you when evil is afoot and you need to listen to them think about our friend at the gas station he knows what the fuck hell yeah he always knows what's and he has all the fucking drama hell yeah he does so listen to your local gas station it's true if they're informing you about a crime and this guy is saying that on november 18th in the early morning hours he was shortchanged by two men who looked like those bus and of course you're gonna remember that yes because and he said it was strange because these men bought
12 worth of gas for their black chevrolet so he was able to provide that and he said but they attempted to pay with a five dollar bill in two singles what so they attempted to pay seven dollars for twelve dollars worth of gas i think he thought like that they would they probably thought that he would just take the five thinking it was a ten yeah they could leave before he noticed which like wow you're an asshole i the fact that you just broke that down so easily because like because they're 10 and two singles so it's like I think they just did it to be dicks and like hoped he wouldn't notice but I'm
like no he's smarter than you now he immediately pointed out this error and he was like I think you gave me the wrong bill and they were like oh okay so they went back to their car they got the money but then he said they both quote spewed obscenities at him while driving off and it's like okay his gas to me that's a pretty credible tip yeah because Because that's already a crime.
And they seem like the kind of pieces of shit that would do something awful.
Right. So maybe track down.
Like if you're that big of a piece of shit, you're a piece of shit through and through.
Shit. So the tips from the Speedway police hotline and the Indianapolis Stars reward desk, they prompted hundreds of responses.
But really only a handful actually produced viable leads that they could even chase down.
And then when they chased down those leads, nothing.
nothing even the viable leads they chased down nothing so after two months of investigation there was still not even a clear motive for this crime because the robbers had seemingly gone into the burger chef to rob the restaurant right but if that was the case why the fuck did they kidnap and murder four teens there like why did they do that and it's like we always hear the robbery robbery gone wrong explanation for these kind of situations but this was really wrong like this went really wrong and not only really wrong but they took them far away well that's the thing I feel like that's not a that's
not even a typical robbery gone wrong they're just kind of like presumably shoot them and leave them there that's the thing that would be in that's a robbery gone wrong that they just start shooting right and everybody is at the scene right very I mean I mean, typically robbers aren't in the habit of executing people in the middle of the woods, like pretty rare for that to happen.
So the best explanation that detectives could have come to was that something had thrown them off their plan that night, that they went in there ready to rob that place and some unexpected thing happened that threw the whole thing into just shenanigans.
And the only difference that night that they could come to was the presence of Mark Flemons.
He had switched shifts with another employee.
Investigators started to theorize that Flemons knew or could at least identify one or more of the robbers who were thrown off by his presence and killed all of them in a panic.
I don't agree with that.
I think they're looking at that theory from the wrong angle, in my opinion.
I don't think it was that Mark knew these people.
i think it was that they went in there thinking there was four specific people that were going to be working which it also was a girl who was supposed to be working in mark's place i wonder if they went in there saying okay there's three girls there's one boy and the boy is like a 16 year old we can take him and then when they went in there and they saw now there's two strong like you know there's two like teenage boys that threw everything off i don't think it had to do with mark knowing who these criminals were because why would the only people that i would think he would know are like his fellow
high schoolers that's the thing i'm like i don't think that think this is the work of two high school students no exactly but even with all of that it's still like that even if they came in there and they saw what they were not expecting to see which is apparently an extra boy instead of an extra girl because that's just my random speculation speculation i can see that like throwing everybody off but like to that extent yeah not to that's exactly it not to that extent it's just that there's a lot of unanswered questions in that i feel like that's a theme of this whole yeah every time you think
you're like oh well maybe this happened you're like no that doesn't make sense but maybe this is one of those things too that it's like it doesn't make sense none of it's senseless so like maybe that's what it is that was very profound thank you i thought so too and i think it really was so by march of 1979 really the problem you know the territorial thing between between the departments egos the fragile egos it was again causing problems for the burger chef murder investigation and there was a lot of confusion among the press that was happening on march 7th the indianapolis News reported quote
Speedway Police Chief Robert Copeland and all his officers were ordered by his police commissioners and state police not to talk about any aspect of the November slayings so they're essentially saying there was a gag order put on them right but then when reporters asked more about this um and they were told by the state police superintendent John Shettle or Shettle excuse me this is the first I've heard of it we don't dictate to anyone we try try to cooperate in a case like this what those are two very conflicting things yeah that's that's opposite day baby and then in the same vein a spokesperson for the governor's
office said quote gag orders are the authority of the judicial system right which implies that unless a judge has issued that check that gag order it's no you're not under a gag order so it's so wild with that and there was no explanation for this so it seemed like copeland's you know gag order quote quote unquote, really was nothing more than just an attempt to avoid questions and not take on more scrutiny or deal with more scrutiny from the press, basically not wanting to confront the fact that they had made zero progress in this case and that it was botched from the start.
And he was like, if I just say this gag order, nobody can talk about it and it won't bring any focus to the negligence that we have committed.
Because that's the thing.
He just doesn't have answers.
So no, I can't say anything.
thing it's like but you're just lying and making people believe you less he put a gag order on himself he did you don't have anything to say don't say anything don't say anything at all because what could you say if you don't have anything to say but then he just lied and i was like that's something like a liar he lied right out of his face and into their faces fucked up brother but whatever so investigators thought they actually found that had actually caught a break in april okay they finally something popped two men were arrested in chicago on murder charges and they were discovered to bear
a pretty uncanny resemblance to the composite sketches here we are here we are now on april 24th milwaukee police because it was in um charges were in milwaukee milwaukee police arrested stephen coffee and norman pepin these were two criminals from somerville massachusetts i was there last night we were there last night oh my god they're fucking stomping ground there it is uh so they were arrested for attempting to cash three hundred dollars in travelers checks but those traveler checks had been stolen from travelers not not just a random person but one of two men killed in a quote execution style
killing oh yeah the The previous day, they had been flagged as being dead ringers for the composite sketches.
Execution style killings, you said.
Oh, yeah. It gets even crazier.
So on Monday, April 23rd, they met three men.
This is what happened.
They met three men at a Milwaukee Holiday Inn.
They were in the city for an engineering conference and the four of them went to a disco.
As you do. Loves it.
Now, on their way back to the motel, they pulled off the side of the road and they robbed these men at gunpoint jesus they took them to a disco and then robbed them and what's even wilder about this is they then quote forced them to lie down in a ditch and shot them to death dude does this sound familiar sure does now miraculously one of the men survived wow and he called the police and was able to identify these two and he had been shot yeah holy cow now based on their resemblance to the sketches and the fact that this was very similar made them lie down face down in a ditch before shooting them
that all that like similarities to the burger chef case uh they had coffee and pepin extradited to indiana they don't blame them because they were like yeah we got at least look at this yeah talk to y 'all there they appeared before a judge and they had to wear paper bags over their heads because they couldn't jeopardize a lineup and it would have tainted a lineup to have their faces out there i love that crafty crafty solution and don't you love that visual yes i do it's so weird it's it feels wrong now unfortunately apparently when they looked at the timeline of everything police announced on may 1st
that coffee and peppin were no longer people of interest in the burger chef case did they give reason just like the timeline didn't match up but i'm like okay but like why like i need you i need you to say because they were in chicago when this happened well and that's and it's like yeah the timeline didn't work i'm like what about it didn't well and also it's like i don't know if i trust you with this case i know that i don't yeah i don't know about that yeah girl me either i just don't know about that You know, say, yeah.
But by October of that year, investigators once again found themselves just completely leadless on this whole thing.
And it seemed like the Burger Chef murders were really fading out of the forefront here.
They were fading out of the press.
People weren't taking as much interest. And on October 2nd, the Metropolitan Board of Police Commissioners voted unanimously to fire police chief Robert Copeland.
oh shit and they voted to do this because of his lack of leadership on the bombings and the murder of julia and then also the burger chef murders so all the recent crimes all the things that he failed to lead his department about all of his jobs and so he was fired and then after that there was a bunch of dismissals or transfers of like at least a handful of other law enforcement enforcement officers that had some something to do with the burger chef case.
Wow. So they got either transferred out or they were just dismissed.
That's interesting that some of them got transferred out and some got dismissed.
Yes. It's a very strange.
I also don't know about that.
I don't know about that now.
Yeah. So years are going by at this point.
Right. Tips are starting to dry up.
They're coming in, but they're not really doing anything.
Leads are definitely nowhere to be found and the case is really going cold at this point then in december of 1984 indianapolis star journalist dan loseter i think it's lose at her or lose it or i thought he said loser and i was like i don't think that's it i think it is okay um he received a call from an inmate an inmate from the marion county jail finally they're chit -chatting all right now Now, this inmate was in there after being arrested for a ton of thefts.
This man said that he had information about the Burger Chef case.
He said, it's going to be a great story, and I will happily give it to you as long as you're willing to help me out.
No. And so Dan was like, yeah, I don't know how I can possibly help you because I'm a journalist. Like, I'm not a judge.
So, like, I don't know what to tell you.
But he was like, you know what?
It's worth finding out at least what he has to say.
So he made his way down to the Marion County Jail to talk to him.
Now, at this point, the Burger Chef murder case is six years old.
Damn. And at this point, like, every single detail had been told, retold in the newspapers.
It had been turned around.
It had been lied about.
It had been retracted.
All this stuff. It's just been through the mud.
It has. Through the thick of it.
but it was I guess this reporter Dan he said that there was something about the story that he was told that this guy was telling him that seemed truthful like it seemed real okay and he said more importantly the man claimed to know the identities of who was responsible for the murders well so we got it here and he said one of those people has already been dismissed missed by investigators maybe that's why they were transferred and then he said the other one was a name that he had actually heard but that he this uh reporter had never heard before but the police definitely had this guy's name was donald
ray forrester now donald ray forrester's name like i said didn't ring a bell to dan but it definitely rang a bell with the speedway area police because since he was a teen forrester had been very familiar with law enforcement meant he was a petty criminal disorderly contact conduct like petty theft reckless driving those kind of things what did i say in the beginning i said this is not their first rodeo no way there you go i knew it but then after all these petty thefts and these little crimes he definitely escalated to a violent crime in 1977 so right before the burgers burger chef murders he
was was arrested for quote assault and battery with the intent to gratify sexual desires which is a mighty escalation yeah that is now forrester had actually been out on parole when the burger chef murders were committed and he was arrested again for rape in april of 1979 1979.
So this goes in line.
Were the two female victims checked to see if they had like any signs that they had been raped?
It didn't seem like they had been nothing.
Nothing that I read suggested that they were.
OK. But he had been sentenced to 95 years in prison.
Wow. So good. So Dan Luziter, he went on like a research deep dive on the Burger Chef murders and on Donald Ray Forrester because he was like, I got to try to make a connection here.
And then he finally contacted Forrester, who was actually serving out his sentence at Pendleton Reformatory.
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so they find he finally got him to agree to meet with him and the meeting was june 24th 1985 now at that point forrester had already been questioned by investigators about the burger chef murders he had failed two polygraph tests and but he was saying that he knew nothing about the case nothing about the crime it's so funny because when somebody i'm rooting for fails a a polygraph i'm like it means nothing hot dog in a trench coat and then when somebody i'm like i don't know about you like maybe i'm like they did it you're like yep that was it i know it's so true but so this reporter though was like
because he again he's saying he knew nothing about the case this reporter is not going to give up hope though because he's like there's some connections here the timing is making sense he was out on parole during that time he had just escalated to a lot of violence yeah it's not committed another act of violence after yeah it's not like his name was was just pulled out of thin air you know but when he's going to meet with him he's like i have to be realistic about this he might not give me anything so when he went he asked forrester he said did you commit the murders and forrester said i did not but then
loseter began just like dan he began like pondering aloud he's like you know i just wonder why why did these murders occur her smart you know and i guess forrester who was not asked directly this just gave an answer and said it was drugs drugs and homosexuality yep and he went on to say he was innocent but he said he did know who committed the murders and he said i'll give you that information if you get me a new trial for the rape charges that i'm in here for dan is like one more time for the people in the back i'm a mother fucking journalist i can't give you a new trial dude i can write you
a bomb ass article yeah that's pretty much all i got that's all i got man maybe i could put a good word in with my editor like i don't know it's just like are you kidding me so but over the next few weeks dan looseter spent hours and hours and days and days just investigating forrester and And eventually he got to interview Forrester's ex -wife.
Oh, shit. The plot motherfucking thickens.
Now, his ex -wife, she told Luziter that you need to bring detectives to this house.
So he did. He brought detectives and she led them to shell casings that were hidden in the couple's septic tank that matched the ones found in the Burger Ship murders.
i don't even know where my septic tank is but they do how like yeah what yep what so then does that mean that they weren't flushing their septic tank i have no idea how that works you're like don't ask those questions i have no idea you're like what's a sub i'm like i don't know what they were doing but what the fuck but lucitor brought this information to forester poster and was like hey um yeah like uh do you want to say anything about that and he was like oh no i'm still innocent but then he kept he was like coyly giving pieces of information that you were like why would you know how do you
know that but he kept saying he wanted something in return and dan again is like i have nothing to give so detectives were called in here to talk to him and detectives spent weeks with him they drove him to locations around with that they thought thought might be connected to the murders.
They brought him to a hypnotist in Akron, Ohio, but he would not admit to doing it.
And he said he'd never been there.
He had nothing to do with it.
Investigators were so frustrated at this point.
But eventually, he did provide the names of two men that he claimed were the killers.
But detectives interviewed these two men and they immediately knew he was lying.
And also like, oh, you just took the shell casings for them them yeah exactly fucking stuff to tank all these years when they they were like as soon as they sat down and started talking to them they him the two men they were like no no like this is this is a lie right so by november of 1986 now nearly eight years after the burger chef murders occurred detectives were just done they were like dan ford or donald forrester is not going to do the right thing he's not going to confess of course not we just have to try to get some evidence to like force it and then they were stunned because they received
a call that year saying that donald forester wanted to chat with them so no one understands why or what led this to happen but donald forester sat down with these detectives on november 10th 1986 and he gave a detailed detailed confession of the murders so what do you mean that this is unsolved so and these were things details that only someone who was there that night could have known like he described the positions of the bodies the wounds they suffered one of the things he said was that daniel davis had been shot in the cheek and that had never been released to the public so why didn't did
he get arrested and that's a pretty spit well he's in jail for 95 years oh right so so yeah but did he have to like well he also told investigators that the gun that was used they threw in the white river which makes sense that they never found the gun that's a big old river and he also confessed that it was he it was him who had shot ruth shelton and daniel davis oh my god he admitted to the two which also makes sense because jane and mark were the ones that were found further away so not only did he confess but he's confessing correctly saying i'm the one who shot the two that were found on the ground
holy shit yeah it's like this guy did it and did he say who he who he did it with or he wouldn't give them the name now so according to him the murders quote resulted from an effort to collect a large debt over a cocaine deal that involved one of the victims and the crimes had been committed by multiple people obviously obviously now this was not seeming to be the real story because if we look at the four people involved like the four victims it doesn't add up so everybody was like i don't know about that but in 1981 jane freet's brother james was arrested on cocaine charges oh so you think maybe
they went there to like fuck with his sister yeah to like intimidate him and he actually said at the time of his arrest that he suggested that jane's murder could have been connected to his arrest cocaine shit oh no it doesn't look like the investigators followed up on it at the time though in 81 what the fuck were they doing it was in 81 right like only a few years after a couple of years after the murders that that he was arrested jane's brother and at that time he said said to investigators guys i think this might be the reason that my sister was killed and they didn't follow up on it like
and now this guy is sitting here saying that it's a cocaine deal and is there any notes or anything like uh do do do do do do do but that's like wild that they just didn't follow like yeah i cannot imagine a more poorly fucking handled case than this no well Well, and all the way through.
Because it's like it's also once you look at the scene, you're like, yeah, that actually makes perfect fucking sense.
Exactly. You're like, OK, now I see.
That's why they didn't take the ring.
That's why they didn't take the cash.
They got the money out of the thing.
They got what they wanted.
And then they got to that.
And that's what it makes sense.
Yeah, that's brutal.
Yeah. Now, based on this whole thing, police now connected the murders to the huge drug ring that had been operating in Speedway at the time.
okay it was run by a guy that Forrester actually implicated as the individual who planned the whole thing in the first place yeah because he was running it so he wanted his money exactly now in exchange for the information Forrester was granted immunity from prosecution for this because he was already in prison for 95 years but he was only going to be granted that if he hadn't committed the murders which he already confessed to okay so they kind of like played a little game yeah And two weeks but this kind of backfired because two weeks later he recanted.
And he said that he had been coerced to confess by police and that they threatened to you know they threatened all this stuff and that he was when he was sent back to prison he was going to be labeled an informant and like that was going to get him killed so that was him getting scared that he confessed.
And that he told all this shit about a huge drug ring and that when he went back in when that they were going to like clearly make him pay for it exactly so now the confession is recanted and investigators are looking for anything that can tie physically Forrester to these murders I mean that confession is great because he gave the details that only someone there could know but then they have nothing physical and then it's like if he's saying it's he was coerced into that it's their word against it because then he can say well they gave me those details exactly but so they're trying to come up
with anything and they came We came across a charge from 1969 where Forrester was actually arrested for sexually assaulting a 14 year old girl.
Wow. He's a piece of actual human garbage.
Yep. In a wooded area off Stones Crossing Road which was about a mile and a half from where the Burger Chef murders occurred.
Wow. Now for some reason he was never sentenced for sexual assault.
Oh good. But it kind of proved that one he's a piece of shit and two that he's familiar with the area that they were found.
Now, unfortunately, District Attorney Stephen Goldsmith didn't think this was sufficient to prove his guilt, which I can kind of see.
If I was on a jury, I don't know if that would move me.
It's just not enough.
That's the thing. Now, his confession and then the recanting of that put the district attorney in a really bad position.
There's one hand that's like, like I said, the details.
It's a near certainty that he is one of the killers, a near certainty.
But on the other hand, this story had unraveled and been told and retold and fucked around so many times that it was now really difficult to tell what was true and what was lies and what was manipulated and what wasn't.
But the fact that he knew the details of like one of them being shot in the cheek when that had never been released.
And they all believe like he 100 % is one of the killers.
Like that is it. But it just makes proving it a completely uphill battle.
And the biggest problem that the district attorney faced was that so many people had been involved in the investigation and had contact with Forrester.
Right. And all of them had received varying versions of the story and none could settle on just one version of the story.
Yeah. So it was like no one could even settle on like this is the narrative.
And then what makes everything worse is that the territorial stuff and the ego stuff had completely plagued everything about this case over the years, had led to so many miscommunications, tainted evidence, missing evidence.
There was going to be a mistrial if they brought this to trial.
100%, 100%, 100%. It was such a tainted investigation from the beginning.
Because it was fucked from the start, exactly.
It was. Now, on December 20th, 1986, D .A.
Goldsmith called a meeting with investigators from all the agencies involved in this case.
Together, they combed over Forrester's statement.
It was 1 ,200 pages.
1 ,200? All the statements that he had made.
Holy cannoli. And after reviewing everything, Goldsmith held a press conference, and he made an announcement.
he said after careful consideration of this entire thing he would not be pursuing charges against donald ray forrester for the burger chef murders so bad for those families they must have had hope for the first time in like so many years and then just have that ripped away from you and he said that it like killed him of course to not do it but he said too many years have gone by too many mistakes have been made in this case and i don't know if we're gonna be able to solve it no well and the thing is like like legally solve it exactly like i think everybody kind of knows what happened at this point
and it's like that's horrible for the family that they had that hope but at the same time i'm glad that he realized that they didn't have enough because if all those families had to go through trials exactly opening all of that and then to have an end in a mistrial or not guilty fuck that exactly that's the thing because it's like if they had gone through with it it just would have tainted it further exactly so it's like i understand why he was like it's really not worth it to do this oh it's such a bummer though i know it bummed me out so much it's like i know he did it now in 2003 oh shit 25
years after the murders um rachel and john shelton who are the parents of ruth shelton they gave an interview about the still unsolved burger burgershelf murders and they said at first i was convinced that it would be solved that's what her mother said and she said i guess we sure don't hold our breath about it it was a very long time ago which is like so sad because that's just like like just throwing our hands up like no one's gonna do it now they had both hoped the killer would have been caught but then when detectives told them that they didn't have enough evidence to prosecute the suspects
john shelton said to To be honest, I don't even want to know their names.
I can't blame them, really.
Because it's like if I don't know for sure, then I don't want to harbor hatred and resentment toward one person that could or could not have done it.
So it's like forget it.
I don't even want to deal with it.
It's so half -assed at that point.
I know. I'd be like, fuck off.
Yeah, like whatever.
And today, the Burger Chef murder case is open but inactive.
It's so hard because it's like there's no evidence to look back on.
It's just sitting there.
and all the evidence that they do have all the notes all the statements and everything it has it's in a five drawer file cabinet and six and a half foot wall locker that's at state police district 52 office just sitting there just not being touched it's been years since they've pursued any leads and most of the original investigators are actually all of the original investigators on the case have either retired or died yeah and the burger Burger Chef restaurant chain was actually sold to CKE Restaurant Holdings in 1982.
And it is now Hardee's Restaurant, which I didn't know.
I don't know, but have I heard of Hardee's?
Hardee's, it's like burgers, I think.
Oh, OK. Yeah. And today the old Burger Chef restaurant on Crawfordsville Road and Speedway sits empty.
Oh, isn't that chilling?
Really chilling. But then at the same time, it's like, what would you want to see go up there?
I know. Other than a memorial?
No, it's true. like something i know it should be like a park yeah i feel like yeah you know but in the end we're just left with this nothing this frustrating void of information that we know if more investigatory like due diligence was done from the get -go and people didn't walk into this thing it would have been with a preconceived narrative in their head and they had actually taken even Even one fucking photo of that scene that this all could be different is mind boggling.
But now we're sitting here and they're trying to solve this case that was just completely erased from the beginning.
They erased it right from the beginning.
Literally, they magic erased it away.
Yeah. And it's like and then and then they're trying to like, you know, right from the get go.
they're all sitting there being like well I think these kids just you know they decided that night to just steal all the money out of the safe and then took off together like that was their first theory and it's like with no prior past of any kind of yeah with no criminal past like it's just like okay I see you I see you and then later they theorize that it must be Mark the only black employee that was taken out of that restaurant that day who knew the killers and that he was the reason that they were all killed and it's It's like, with what fucking evidence?
You have no evidence to back that up.
You're racist. Like, we're just going to go with Mark being the problem here?
I don't think any of them were the problem here.
No, I think they were all working.
And I think I do think that if Jane's own brother suggested that his the cocaine stuff could have been to do with it, like his sister's murder.
Yeah, I think we should listen to them.
Right. They're telling you some follow up questions on that.
and he's not bullshitting it's not like her his brother her brother is being like oh no but he's he's actively saying like probably out of guilt like probably out of like anger and sadness and like grief like this could have had something to do with it like investigate it that's the thing like why would he say that other than to be like please like exactly this he's not going to implicate himself even further no he brought it like that is that's a fucking brother yeah absolutely like regardless of what he was doing in his personal life or any like the the cocaine stuff it's like that he was being
a brother yeah like he was being a brother and being like i'm gonna put myself out on a limb here and i want you to investigate this because i think it could have something to do with it and they just ignored him and then you have donald ray forrester sitting there giving that exact same story and saying it is because of cocaine right and a debt that would need to be paid and it's like that's seems to me to line up wow yeah it's a very frustrating case and also if that is if that is the case with the whole cocaine charge it's like why did you like you didn't need to involve his sister in the burger
chef restaurant no it's fucked up deal with it directly no it's really fucked up that's but it's scary what money will do to people and drugs yeah money and drugs mixed together oof yikes it's like a bad bad bad combination god that's so scary drug rings i think are one of the scariest fucking things on the planet because it's truly ruthless yeah that's why i'm just like okay bye bye uh yeah with that being said we hope you keep listening we hope you keep it weird but it's so weird that run a drug ring because we're scared bye so if you like morbid, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining
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