Episode 367: JonBenet Ramsey Part 2｜Morbid

Hey, weirdos, before we dive into today's twisted tale, let me tell you about a place where the darkness never ends.

Wondery Plus. It's like stepping into a haunted mansion where the floorboards creak with ad-free episodes and early access to new episodes lurks around every corner.

So come join us if you dare. Morbid is available one week early and ad-free only on Wondery Plus.

You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or an Apple podcast or Spotify.

You're listening to a Morbid Network podcast.

Morbid is sponsored by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online.

Who doesn't want to stand out and succeed?

Get you a girl who can do both. Every dream needs a domain.

Squarespace domains make it easy to find the best name for your business at one fair all-inclusive price.

No hidden fees or add-ons required. Every Squarespace domain comes with advanced privacy and security tools included to ensure that your domain remains online and protected.

Plus, Squarespace provides everything you need to bring more of your dream to life, whether that means building a website or adding a professional email service.

Squarespace gives you everything that you need to offer services and get paid all in one place.

From consultations, events, and experiences, showcase your offerings with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business.

Plus, streamline your workflow with built-in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools. head to squarespace.com morbid for a free trial and when you're ready to launch use offer code morbid to save 10 off your first purchase of a website or domain listening on audible helps your imagination soar whether you listen to stories motivation expert advice any genre you love you can be inspired to imagine new worlds new possibilities and new ways of thinking listening can lead to positive changes in your mood your habits and ultimately your overall well-being Audible has an incredible selection of over 1 million audiobooks, podcasts, and Audible Originals all in one easy app.

Find the genres you love and discover new ones.

Explore bestsellers like my sister's title, new releases, plus thousands of included audiobooks, podcasts, and originals that members can listen to all they want with more added all the time.

I have been listening to the Martha's Vineyard Beach and Book Club, which actually Elena recommended to me.

She did not listen to it, but she said, girl, this title sounds so you.

And let me tell you, it did. I've been listening to it while I walk, and I am absolutely loving it.

I love all the different narrators. I love Audible.

There's more to imagine when you listen.

Sign up for a free 30-day Audible trial, and your first audiobook is free.

Visit audible.com slash morbid. Hey weirdos, I'm Elena.

I'm Ash. And this is Morbid. Elena's getting better, and I'm getting sick.

But Ash doesn't tend to lose her voice. No, I'm not really like a little mermaid kind of gal.

Yeah, she's not going to lose her voice to a sea witch anytime soon, I don't think.

Mine's coming back, so there's that. Did King Trident undo your curse?

There you go. I heard a little snippet from, I think it was like the New England Witches episode, and I was like, oh, man.

I know. It's so funny because I feel like I always tell you when you're sick.

I'm like, it's really not that bad. You do.

You always tell me that. And I really, like when I'm listening to you, I'm like, no, it's really not that bad.

Like, you don't sound so terrible. And then I hear it on the podcast, like if we're editing or something.

And I'm like, oh, my God. You're like, oh, that was really bad.

I think the microphone makes it sound worse or something.

I don't know. I mean, this time it was definitely bad because there was a few days where I just couldn't speak at all.

Yeah, yeah. Those days were, those were rough days.

Those were bad, but. There were a couple of meetings where I just had, Elena had to type and I literally had to translate what she was saying.

Literally, literally. Because she could not speak it.

Yeah, it was rough. It was so bad. And the more I tried, the worse it got.

But we're on the other side of that. And I'm coming out of it.

It's coming back. A few more days, I'll be good as new.

But yeah, so we are in part two of our redone JonBenet Ramsey case.

Because, you know, like things have happened since we recorded it the first time.

So this is a good little update, I think.

And we've grown. We've grown. I think everybody's grown at this point.

We're all grown. And I have, I know what I think happened.

What? I know what I think happened here.

I'm not going to say what I think happened here because no one's been arrested and no one's been charged with this.

Yeah. So that's like dangerous. So I'm not going to do that because like people, you know, like people get mad about that and understandably.

Ain't nobody got time to get sued. Yeah.

And like, I just, there's really no reason for it.

So I'll just keep it to myself and everybody can have their own opinion about what happened here.

Yeah. I'm just going to give you the facts.

And again, like I did in the first part, I will give you as much of a fully fleshed, both sides, like multiple sides, intruder theory and side theory as I possibly can.

And when we left you, we, you know, we found, we told you about the whole crime story. the autopsy, some of the strangeness involved.

And we left off with the Boulder police chief, Tom Kobe at the time, telling the public that there was no threat to them and that this was a completely isolated incident.

Which makes no fucking sense. Yeah. What you're trying to say happened is a random human being snuck into this house, somehow broke into this house, even though there was no sign of forced entry, but there was open windows and then closed windows and then broken windows and then undisturbed windows.

But either way, somebody somehow got into this house, took a baby out of her bed and lured her into a basement where she was brutally murdered.

And you're telling me that I shouldn't be concerned about my family?

That's the thing. What? And then they went and then like Patsy and John Ramsey went on an interview and she looked into the camera and it's like really harrowing.

Like how she said that she says like, you know, like hold your babies tight because there's someone out there.

Yeah. And it's like, but you just that's contradictory to what the police are telling us.

So like, which is it? Is there this crazy person out there killing babies or is it something else?

Yeah. What's the deal? And I think there's so much conflicting information.

And from what we'll see, there was a lot going on behind the scenes of this investigation that we still don't know everything.

But there was a lot of political stuff. There was a lot of.

You know, money stuff going on. There was a lot of people not looking at actually serving justice and instead trying to get this out of the papers.

And I don't know what the actual... It has obscured the actual perpetrator of the case so much that it's like...

And the victim. I don't know what they need.

It can be solved. I fully believe that. Yeah, definitely.

But it's like, something needs to happen here.

Something very new needs to happen here.

Well, and how do you just like politicize a six-year-old's murder?

I don't understand how you do that. And we'll actually we're going to be starting off pretty quickly with a resignation of one of the detectives who he also asked that, like, how is it that this happened?

And so one of the last I just wanted to mention another piece of evidence that was kind of a big deal that they've really never been able to answer is there was a boot print found next to her body.

And it was made by a, it was called a high-tech boot.

Like it had the words high-tech. And a handprint, like a partial palm print was on the doorframe leading into that wine cellar.

And it didn't match any of the Ramsey's or any of their boots.

So there is that, nothing that was in the house that they could find.

So that's interesting. But in the summer of 1997, the Ramseys, I think I mentioned this in the last episode, they did get out of Boulder.

They moved to Atlanta, where I think we talked about how John was on the phone after Jean Benet was found trying to get a plane to Georgia.

Yeah. And they were like, you cannot do that.

And he was like, well, I have a meeting that I can't miss.

And they were like, I don't think you need to take that meeting.

Yeah. They were like, you know what? You can miss this one.

Yeah. So they ended up moving there. They moved right across to Atlanta.

By August of 1998, Detective Steve Thomas resigned from the police department over the way the case was handled.

Wow. That tells you a lot. Yeah. He was one of five detectives that was leading the case.

He wrote a very long resignation letter laying it out.

I'm going to read some of the portions of it here because it's pretty, like, shocking.

Okay. And it only came out, like, kind of recently.

This was written on August 6, 1998. He says, Chief Beckner...

On June 22nd, I submitted a letter to Chief Kobe requesting a leave of absence from the Boulder Police Department.

In response to persistent speculation as to why I chose to leave the Ramsey investigation, this letter explains more fully those reasons.

Although my concerns were well known for some time, I tried to be gracious in my departure, addressing only health concerns.

However, after a month of soul searching and reflection, I feel I must now set the record straight.

The primary reason why I chose to leave is my belief that the district attorney's office continues to mishandle the Ramsey case.

I had been troubled for many months with many aspects of the investigation. albeit an uphill battle of a case to begin with.

It became a nearly impossible investigation because of the political alliances, philosophical differences, and professional egos that blocked progress in more ways and on more occasions than can be detailed in this memorandum.

I and others voiced these concerns repeatedly.

In the interest of hoping justice would be served, we tolerated it, except for those closed-door sessions when detectives protested in frustration, where fists hit the table, where detectives demanded that the right things be done, the wrong things were done, and made it a manner of simple principle that I could not continue to participate as it stood with the district attorney's office.

As an organization, we remained silent when we should have shouted."

And again, this isn't the entire thing, but I'm reading you portions.

The Boulder Police Department took a handful of detectives days after the murder and handed us this case.

As one of those five primary detectives, we tackled it for a year and a half.

We conducted an exhaustive investigation, followed the evidence where it led us, and were faithfully and professionally committed to this case.

Although not perfect, cases rarely are. During 18 months on the Ramsey investigation, my colleagues and I worked the case day and night.

And in spite of tied hands, on June 1st and 2nd, 1998, we crunched 30,000 pages of investigation to its essence and put our cards on the table, delivering the case in a formal presentation to the district attorney's office.

We stood confident in our work. Very shortly thereafter, though, the detectives who knew this case, know this case better than anyone, were advised by the district attorney's office that we would not be participating as grand jury advisory witnesses.

Like, what? 30,000 pages of documents and you're like, sorry, you're not invited to the grand jury.

Oh, yeah. What? And he says the very entity with whom we shared our investigative case file to see justice sought, I felt, was betraying this case.

We were never afforded true prosecutorial support.

There was never a consolidation of resources.

All legal opportunities were not made available.

How were we expected to, quote unquote, solve this case when the district attorney's office was crippling us with their positions?

I believe they were literally facilitating the escape of justice.

During this investigation, consider the following.

He lists a ton of shit. I'm only going to list a few of them that really caught my eye just so I don't read the entire thing.

Sure. Because you can find it online. It says, during the investigation, detectives would discover, collect, and bring evidence to the district attorney's office, only to have it summarily dismissed or rationalized as insignificant.

The most elementary of investigative efforts, such as obtaining telephone and credit card records, were met without support.

Search warrants denied. The significant opinions of national experts were casually dismissed or ignored by the district attorney's office.

Even the experienced FBI were waived aside.

The FBI, the experienced FBI. They're just like, go over there.

Then he says in a departure from protocol, police reports, physical evidence and investigative information were shared with Ramsey defense attorneys.

What? All of this in the district attorney's office, quote unquote, spirit of cooperation.

I served a search warrant only to find later defense attorneys were simply given copies of the evidence that I yielded.

He also says, I was advised not to speak to certain witnesses and all but dissuaded from pursuing particular investigative efforts.

Polygraphs were acceptable for some suspects, but others seemed immune from such requests.

What? He says, I was told by one in the district attorney's office about being unable to, quote, break a particular police officer from his resolute accounts of events he had witnessed.

In my opinion, this was not trial preparation.

This was an attempt to derail months of hard work.

That's what it sounds like. Also, there's evidence that was critical to the investigation that to this day was never collected because neither search warrants nor other means were supported to do so.

Not to mention evidence which still sits today untested in the laboratory as differences continue about how to proceed.

How do you have differences on how to proceed?

Like, test it. He says, while investigative efforts were rebuffed, my search warrant affidavits and attempts to gather evidence in the murder investigations of a six-year-old child were met with refusals.

And instead, the suggestion that we, quote, ask the permission of the Ramseys before proceeding.

And just before conducting the Ramsey interviews, I thought it inconceivable I was being lectured on building trust.

What the fuck? Yep. This whole time I'm just like, what?

Oh, it gets worse and worse. So there's just a couple more things in here.

I believe the district attorney's office is thoroughly compromised when we were told by one in the district attorney's office months before we had even completed our investigation that this case, quote, is not prosecutable.

We shook our heads in disbelief. A lot could have been forgiven, the lesser transgressions ignored, for the right done.

Instead, those in the district attorney's office encouraged us to allow them to, quote, work their magic, which I never fully understood.

Did that, quote, unquote, magic include sharing our case file information with the defense attorneys, dragging feet in evidence collection, or believing that two decades of used car dealing style plea bargaining was somehow going to solve this case?

Right and wrong is just that. Some of these issues were not shades of gray.

Decisions should have been made as such, whether a suspect a penniless indignant with a public defender or otherwise.

Unmistakably, and worst of all, we have failed a little girl named JonBenet.

Six years old. Many good people, decent, innocent citizens are forever bound by the murder of this child.

There is a tremendous obligation to them, but an infinitely greater obligation to her, as she rests in a small cemetery far away from this anomaly of a place called Boulder.

He said, I just want justice for a child who was killed in her home on Christmas night.

And he ends this with saying, as a now infamous author, panicked in the night once penned, use that good Southern common sense of yours.

That is from the ransom note. And he said, I will do just that. originally from a small southern town where this would have never been tolerated, where respect for law and order and traditions were instilled in me.

I will take this murderous author's out-of-context advice and use my good southern common sense to put this case into the perspective it necessitates.

A precious child was murdered. There needs to be some consequence to that."

At 36 years old, I had no idea he was only 36.

Oh, my God. I thought my life's passion as a police officer was carved in stone.

I realized that although I may have to trade my badge for a carpenter's hammer, I will do so with a clear conscience.

It is with a heavy heart that I offer my resignation from the Boulder Police Department in protest of this continuing travesty.

Wow. That is like, first of all, like, are you an author?

Did you also become an author? Yeah. Yeah.

I know that that was a that's a big piece that we did not hear about before.

He he clearly thinks that something is happening.

Some kind of it sounds like some kind of cover up.

Some kind of cover up. Some people are being protected that they are not looking at all of the evidence.

And the fact that they're sitting there saying we're going to work our magic to make this happen, work your magic to solve the death of a six-year-old who, again, like he stated, was murdered on Christmas night in her own home.

Yep. No matter who did it, she was murdered on Christmas night and she's six years old.

Oh, yeah. So work your magic to figure that out.

Well, and in September of 1992, Lou Smit, who's another detective on the case, he also resigned.

Really? But he said, and he said the same thing, that he was very unhappy with the way that the department was handling the Ramsey's case.

He made it clear, though, in his letter that he didn't believe that Patsy and John Ramsey murdered their child.

Okay. But he felt justice was not being served either way.

Yeah. That it was not being done to the best of their ability.

Right. And he said the department was catering to other whims and other powerful entities instead of simply doing the right thing.

So something's a mess in there. And it's the district attorney's office.

Now, crazily, in 2013, court documents were released that showed the grand jury had voted to indict John and Patricia Ramsey on two cases each in 1999.

One on child abuse resulting in death and another on accessory to a crime.

Now, the way the charges are worded say basically that the parents knowingly placed JonBenet into a situation that resulted in great injury or death.

Mm-hmm. But Alex Hunter, the DA at the time, who they are all talking about, decided to just ignore that and wouldn't sign off on the indictments.

Why? And what's crazy is in a CNN article on this, they spoke to several former DAs and experts in the field.

And a former chief deputy DA for Denver that was a DA for over 16 years, Craig Silverman, said it was, quote, "...exceptionally rare for a DA not to go with the grand jury's charges."

He actually said in the article, why would a DA have a grand jury deliberate and vote if he's not going to pursue the charges that they bring back?

Exactly. I would be like, why did you just waste my fucking time?

Exactly. And then he said, and did the grand jury come up with those charges on their own?

No way. One of the DAs had to provide that verbiage.

Right. So what the fuck happened here? So did Alex ever come out and say why that decision was made?

No. No, just not enough. They said not enough evidence to prosecute, but wouldn't go any further than that.

Any further, wow. Now, a CNN legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, said the indictments basically show that the majority of the grand jury felt there was probable cause to indict the parents, but it is not proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

That's what they would be tasked with doing, and the fact that it was not brought...

That he didn't sign off on it likely meant that he believed he could not, this could not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that they had anything to do with it.

So there is like that part of it. But it is, the fact that they wanted to indict them is pretty, pretty intense.

Yeah. I didn't realize that. I don't think I've ever heard that.

But again, it was not signed off by the DA.

It did not happen. And legal analysts do say it is likely that it wasn't a strong case and that they didn't feel like wasting taxpayers' dollars to do this with the knowledge that it likely wouldn't be a winning case, wouldn't be in their best interest.

Okay. So it's one of those things that it's like, you can look at it many different ways.

Yeah. They say that time waits for no one, neither should Payday.

To keep your money moving in the direction of your dreams, get Earnin'.

What is Earnin', you ask? Honey, Earnin' is an app that lets you access your pay as you earn it up to $150 a day with a max of $750 between paydays.

Earnin' is the app that is helping millions of Americans take charge of their pay and avoid falling into debt traps.

Earnin's mission is to make financial momentum accessible to everyone.

It's your money, so put it in your own hands with Earning.

I just feel like Earning is good for so many things.

Like, you know, every now and again you get in your car and you say, oh wow, who knew that I was on empty?

I should have known that, but I didn't. And then you look at your bank account and you're like, oh crap, I haven't been paid yet.

Well, Bye. Bye. Bye. Expedited transfer is available for a fee.

Tips are voluntary and don't affect the service.

Available in select states. Terms and restrictions apply.

Visit earnin.com for full details. Download Earnin now and take control of your pay.

Some cases fade from headlines. Some never made it there to begin with.

I'm Ashley Flowers, and on my podcast, The Deck, I tell you the stories of cold cases featured on playing cards distributed in prisons designed to spark new leads and bring long overdue justice.

Because these stories deserve to be heard, and the loved ones of these victims still deserve answers.

Are you ready to be dealt in? Listen to The Deck now, wherever you get your podcasts.

I mentioned in the first part that I was going to talk about the pineapple.

I know a lot of people who have ever looked into this case, you definitely have read about, heard about, seen the pineapple.

It is a big thing in this case, along with that flashlight.

Now, what the pineapple is, is was at the crime scene, there was a bowl of cut up pineapples on the kitchen table.

This bowl had Burke's fingerprints on it.

It also had Patsy's fingerprints on it. The Ramseys claimed, so John and Patsy both said, we did not put that pineapple there.

We did not put that pineapple. They, to this day, did not put that pineapple there.

We don't know how it got there. And then Burke said he didn't remember.

Okay. So not that he didn't. He just simply didn't remember.

He didn't think he did. Okay. So Burke was... They also claimed, and Burke claims, that he was asleep this entire night.

He does change that story a little bit later.

But everything... So... Somebody had to be awake and somebody had to have pineapple.

It wasn't like it had been sitting rotting on the counter for days.

Like it was pretty fresh pineapple. Right.

Are you trying to say that like the intruder cut up some pineapple for themselves?

Well, that's okay. So this is what gets confusing because these theories get a little funky as they trail out.

Yeah, of course. Now, it's a bowl of pineapple, cut up chunks.

It is, it has a giant like tablespoon in it.

Yeah. Like one that you would not use to eat that, but would be something that like a kid.

Definitely not us. We love a small spoon.

We love, I'm a very, like, I've seen people mention this and I'm glad there's other people out there that have a very specific kind of spoon that they use or fork.

I always use the same type of spoon. We have this, like, one brand that I always use, and those are my spoons.

That's how I am, and I need a small spoon.

I need a small fork. That's it. I can't use anything else.

I get it. You have a small mouth. Yeah, it just makes sense.

I know this is a huge spoon. It's something a kid would use.

I've seen my kids grab a giant tablespoon out of the silverware drawer to, like, eat their cereal, and I'm like, that's insane.

Yeah. But that's just like a kid thing that they would do.

So it makes sense that if Burke woke up, he made himself a treat, he probably would use that giant spoon.

Or Jean Benet, she was six. That could have happened.

It's just simply that her fingerprints were not on the bowl.

They were not on the bowl. Or the spoon?

Or the spoon. Like they weren't on anything.

There was also an empty glass of what was iced tea next to this bowl.

That glass had only Burke's fingerprints on it.

Okay. So this would indicate that Burke was likely awake at some point during the night when JonBenet was either kidnapped already or dead or not or right before it or he was awake at some point.

Because all the Burks, all the Ramses say, we did not feed them that.

So it must have happened after. Like we didn't do that.

Now, he told Dr. Phil when he did that interview in 2016, and it was the first time he had ever really spoken about this.

Burke told Dr. Phil later that he was awake during the night because he wanted to play with a toy that he had gotten for Christmas.

He wanted to put it together. And so he was excited.

We've all been there as a kid. Like, you want to play with your shit.

It's Christmas. And so he said, I woke up and he said, it was after everyone had gone to bed and I wanted to play with this toy.

He cannot remember what the toy is. There's no pineapple involved.

We can't figure out where this pineapple came.

And it's just like someone did that. Right.

Like there's no way... That this person, this intruder theory, if the intruder came in, made a bowl of pineapple, and somehow only Patsy and Burke's fingerprints are all over it.

Right. And brewed some iced tea. So the whole thing is, that's weird enough on its own that there's that.

Nobody can claim why that was there. Because the thing is, too, I just want to point out, even if the intruder was wearing gloves, we would assume that they had eaten a piece of the pineapple and some kind of DNA would have gotten onto that specimen.

Or it would just also just why? Yeah, it doesn't make any sense.

I mean, we have like covered cases in the past where people eat in the home.

Yeah. But it's usually when they've murdered everybody in the home.

Exactly. Or they've like subdued everyone in the home.

You know, like this was already a very lengthy in the middle of the night scenario.

Mm hmm. to make a snack in the middle of it is like pretty wild but the thing is jean benet during her autopsy it was found that in her digestive tract she had fresh pineapple chunks that she had probably likely consumed a few hours before she was killed at the very most and she did not have it at the christmas party her parents said they never saw her eat pineapple at the christmas party no one burke's like i don't remember having it at the christmas party So this was, and it likely happened in the night.

Yeah, I mean, the bowl of pineapple is right there.

Exactly. There's pineapple in her stomach.

It's there. Hi, it's right there. And it was fresh cut.

It matches. So that was weird because then they're like, okay, so did you feed her pineapple before bed?

Like she'd get a snack. John and Patsy said, no, she was carried in sleeping.

We put her right to bed. Why would we tell you?

And John Ramsey says at one point, he's like, if I gave her pineapple, why wouldn't I tell you that I gave her pineapple?

Yeah, like it doesn't matter that much. I wouldn't be hanging on to this so hard that I didn't give her pineapple.

That really doesn't matter. That's not a damning part of this.

No. Kids have snacks before beds all the time.

Yeah, like snacks get left out even, you know?

Yeah, so he's like, I genuinely am telling you I didn't.

Now later, the prosecutor for the district attorney's office, Tripp DeMuth, he asked Patsy Ramsey at one point, can you also understand that the only people that could have done it, fed JonBenet the pineapples, are either yourself or the whites?

Like you, someone in your house, or the whites where you were at the Christmas party.

And she says, or whoever killed JonBenet, right?

And then she said, I mean, there was somebody in our home that night besides my husband, my son and my daughter and myself that killed our daughter.

You know, could they have fed JonBenet pineapple?

To which I say, okay, here's the thing. I understand she's trying to come up with, like, she didn't feed her pineapple.

Yeah, she's like, I don't know who did. So you're trying to come up with an alternate theory of where the hell she got this pineapple.

So, okay. So a Truder came into her bedroom, woke her up without any screaming or sounds made.

Yep. Somehow got her into the kitchen. Which, by the way, there's also a lot of online sources that I found are like really false if you look at the police report that say that there were fibers found in her bed that are consistent with the ropes that were on her.

So people are like, oh, she was subdued in the bed and tied up.

No. The things found in her bed, the fibers, they were olefin fibers and the cords were made from nylon.

So they are not the same fibers. That doesn't prove anything.

Okay. But so she was not tied up in bed, or at least there's no scientific evidence to back up that she was tied up in bed.

So now we know she was somehow taken out of that bed without a fuss, at least not a fuss enough to wake anyone else in the house up.

She's six. I have six year olds. They make noise just going to the bathroom.

I hear them no matter what they do. They also walk like elephants.

Like it's they make a lot of noise. They're loud.

Yeah. If someone was in our house and came into their room, they would scream enough to wake the entire neighborhood up.

Yeah. Somebody in a neighboring country would hear my children screaming.

Absolutely. But this leaves us with the idea that there also may have been a stun gun used, because we talked about how there was those two marks, I think, on her side and on her back.

They look like two circles that are next to each other.

They do look slightly like they could be burn marks from a stun gun probe.

Mm-hmm. But they've never been able to conclusively say that's what they're from or when they were really done to her.

Yeah. So that is also a theory, though, was she hit with a stun gun and then carried downstairs.

And then she's a tiny little... She's a tiny little thing, so she would probably go... She might go out from a stun gun, carry her downstairs.

That's the thing. So it's like we get... We can get to that point with that theory.

Yeah. But then you're like... Okay, so how did the pineapple happen?

Right. Like, that's the only way we could have conceivably got her downstairs.

Unless it was somebody she knew that went in her bedroom.

Which that's exactly it. If we're talking about an intruder that she doesn't know, that's not happening.

What if it's an intruder that she does know?

That's the thing. Right. So that's another alternate theory.

Alternate theory. Is this someone who she felt comfortable with, but...

It would still be a little strange, but it absolutely is possible.

Now, what Patsy said was that the kidnapper could have fed Jean Benet.

I don't know if she can honestly believe that.

I wouldn't honestly believe that because it's like a kidnapper intruder came in, took her from her room or she went willingly.

Then she sat quietly while they fixed a bowl of pineapple.

How did they even know that pineapple was in the house?

How did they know where to find all the bowls and spoons?

And then he cut up pineapple, put it in a bowl with milk, gave her a giant spoon and then fed her some and also brewed a glass of iced tea.

Right. And then brutally assaulted and murdered her.

And also wrote that, what was it, 20-something minute?

Yeah, like 21-minute ransom note. And also, no sounds were happening here.

And then somehow the only fingerprints on that bowl of pineapple are Burke's and Patsy's, not even Jambonay's.

Because that is the main thing is that Jean Monnet's fingerprints are nowhere on that bowl of pineapple.

So to me, it doesn't make sense that she sat down with that bowl.

That's the thing. And it's like, I'm not saying that the pineapple is evidence of murder here.

Like the fact that Patsy and Burke's fingerprints are on there is evidence that they must have murdered their sister and child by no means.

But the fact that everyone is acting so weird about it.

And not claiming it and suggesting that the killer fed her pineapple is like kind of outrageous.

It's like preposterous. Just who gave her pineapple?

Yeah. Someone gave her pineapple or she took pineapple from someone.

Right. And yeah, it's just very strange to me.

And the thing is the fingerprints. Okay, so Patsy was a stay-at-home mom.

And John worked a lot and was like off on business a lot.

So she likely did a lot of the housework as well.

Yeah. I'm sure she put those bowls back.

That's where her fingerprints came from.

That's probably where her fingerprints. I'm sure my fingerprints are likely all over the bowls.

John's are probably all over the bowls. Yeah.

And then if she made that bowl for Burke...

Or not even like she didn't even have to make it for him.

Her fingerprints are already on those bowls.

So if he took it down to make himself something, then his fingerprints are on it now.

He brews himself a nice cold glass of tea.

His fingerprints are on the glass. Yeah.

That's fine. It's fine if you ate a snack in the middle of the night.

Just say it, man. Right. And then again, it's like, now we're how far along into this?

It's like, one, sure, who knows what you would remember from that day?

And two, you can't really change the story now because it's like, that's that.

But it's also like, maybe the pineapple is where it all started.

Yeah. And that's the thing. Yeah. Again, did the kidnapper, if this was an intruder, take the time to brew himself a nice cool glass of iced tea?

I don't think so. I just don't understand why nobody is just being like, oh, shit, yeah, that was my pineapple.

Because I think they asked Burke about it during his psychology sessions when he was a child.

Mm-hmm. So this was very closely after that happened.

And they were asking him, you know, did food sit out on your counter a lot for long periods of time?

And he was like, no. And then they were like, so things got cleaned up pretty quickly.

And he was like, yeah. And so they were like, so would that pineapple really be sitting there for that long?

And he was like, probably not. Right. And it's like, bro.

And it's like when he was little. So I'm like, you remember if that was yours now.

Yeah, absolutely. It was only like 13 days ago.

Like, you definitely remember that. I think it has a lot to maybe do with where things started.

I think it's a source of contention. And I think it's now been denied so much that even if it's something very innocuous...

You can't go back on it now. Like, it's just only going to get people talking more.

So it really is one of those things that it's like, I just want to know whose fucking pineapple that was.

But what's weird to me is also that people want to theorize, like, I've seen some theories like Patsy and John staged the pineapple.

Yeah. Like, they wanted police to wonder whether an intruder fixed her pineapple?

That makes zero sense. Like, zero sense.

Yeah, I don't see that. I do think what happened is that Burke fixed himself a snack.

And they forgot it was there. They didn't think it was going to be pertinent.

Who knows if Burke even told Patsy that Jean Benet, maybe Jean Benet woke up when he was eating his pineapple.

She snagged a piece of pineapple or was eating it with him, just like taking pieces.

Yeah. Who knows if Burke even told Patsy that Jean Benet had eaten some.

Right. So she might have no knowledge of that.

Yep. I feel like that was something that... I think Burke was eating the pineapple.

That's just like... And I think he maybe doesn't remember.

Or maybe he was told, don't tell anyone you ate the pineapple.

Right. Or it could be something else. Right.

I don't know. But that's just what it looks like.

I think the reason to avoid it is because then it leads to questions of, oh, so were you awake at the same time in the middle of the night?

And then you only go further down that path.

Well, and that's exactly it. Because... If he, it would be easy for him to say, sure.

Yeah. Like, cause he said, I woke up, I was, I was trying to put together a toy.

Yeah. And if he says, oh, you know what?

Yeah, I did eat, I did eat some pineapple and I had it.

I must've forgot to put it away. I went to bed and I just didn't.

That's one thing. But then you go, cool.

Okay. That makes sense. That's fine. That's very innocuous.

That's fine. How did it get in Sean Benet's stomach?

So she was awake? Right. And he would have to go, oh, yeah, she was awake for a little while.

What time was that at? Right. And then you start going down that road.

And then it starts. And even if nothing happened here, which I am not claiming that anything happened here, but even if something happened here, a fight ensued, she was bonked on the head with something accidentally.

Yeah. Even if that's the case, you just can't even begin that path because it's going to open a whole door.

And it's like you can't do anything with that.

So this is something that I think is going to be a bone of contention for a long time because we don't really have an answer for it.

She had the pineapple in her stomach. We have the prints.

We have people denying it. And that's all we got so far.

Yeah. So moving away from the pineapple, because that is basically where we are right now.

That's all we got. That's all we know. Hopefully that'll move forward at some point.

The flashlight. The flashlight, it's a Maglite flashlight that was found and photographed on the counter of the Ramsey's kitchen that morning.

It has become a huge thing. The flashlight is still a thing of hot debate among theorists and really the press.

Oh, really? First, there were press outlets saying that there was actually two flashlights and one was missing.

Then it was that the flashlight photographed on the counter was never taken into evidence.

And they believe John Ramsey hid it away while police and people were at their home before Jean Benet was found.

And then there is the department's official statement saying that there was only one, that it was collected from the home right after the crime, and then it was immediately sent to the Colorado Bureau of Investigation for testing, and then it was sent back to Boulder Police, and it sits in evidence.

Okay. When it was sent back there, apparently there was no prints on the inside batteries or on the outside of the flashlight.

That sounds impossible. A lot of people look at that as it sounds like it was wiped clean.

Yeah. So there's that. But then at the same time, and I think we said this last time, Fleet's wife, right, was cleaning.

Exactly. She was cleaning everything. Right.

And also... I think I saw like that somebody had said in an article that wiped clean is not necessarily what it is when it comes back with no fingerprints.

It could mean that there's no fingerprints that they could actually lift.

Like it could be like even like a partial or like just a shitty one.

They're just not discernible. Got it. Now there was all this stuff too, like who owned the flashlight?

Because at first, I guess the Ramseys were shown a photo of the flashlight, but it was after the fingerprint dust was put all over it.

So this black shiny flashlight was now gray and like matte looking.

And it was like dusty and dirty looking.

And they were like, no. And they both were like, that's not our flashlight.

Ours is like shiny and black. Yeah. And they were like, oh, OK.

And like they never informed them like that's that's evidence dust.

But yeah. And they were like, so there was all that thing where it came out that they were denying that it was theirs.

But in reality, I think they just didn't know that that was theirs.

Because it didn't look like theirs. Because I think John was like, oh, that one's dirty.

Ours isn't dirty. Yeah. And it's like, OK.

But it was basically confirmed to be their flashlight, according to former housekeeper Linda Pugh and the family friends, the Fernies.

Now, then Patsy finally confirmed saying, yes, that is our flashlight on the counter that was taken in, saying it was given to John last Christmas or last birthday or something like that by his son, John Andrew.

Okay. Now, John was always, John Ramsey was always a little back and forth about whether that really was their flashlight.

Like, and all the police officers on the scene, because it's a mag light.

It looks like it could be a police officer's flashlight.

Yeah. But all the cops there were like, this is not our flashlight.

They all had theirs. That's not ours. So it was not claimed by anybody in that house.

It had to have either been brought into that house by an intruder and left there on the counter, or it was already in the house and somebody used it.

Right. And if so, why was it on the counter?

Because John Ramsey was like, we did not use that flashlight any recently.

Right. So why was it out on the counter?

Right. It doesn't make any sense. Because you can see it in the pictures.

And they all said, we didn't use that flashlight this morning.

We didn't use it the evening before. They said it's usually kept in a drawer by the bar area, which sits by the spiral staircase where the ransom note was found.

Okay. When they looked in that drawer, there was no flashlight in the drawer, and the drawer was kind of halfway open.

Well, there you go. So to me, that's the flashlight from the drawer.

You would think. But now the question is...

Who put that flashlight there? No one will claim that.

So it's like, okay, intruder is the only theory that makes sense.

Or somebody in the house that used it, put it on there and just refuses to say that they did.

Yeah. Kind of like the pineapple. Exactly.

So the spiral staircase is what leads to upstairs.

Yeah. So somebody coming downstairs, if it was dark, might know that that flashlight is there, open the thing, use the flashlight to guide their path into the kitchen and maybe grab a snack.

Exactly. Hypothetically. Now, exactly. Now, what's...

Crazy, too, is that Werner Spitz reviewed the autopsy.

And we mentioned him before. And it showed a, quote, perfectly rectangular defect in JonBenet's skull.

That's where it was cracked. And they seem to think that that flashlight could have made that perfect defect.

It was an 8.5-inch blow to the head. And if you look at the top of the flashlight, a hit to the head with that could definitely match it.

Now, this is where everything gets even stranger about the flashlight.

Because Burke told Dr. Phil in that interview that when he woke up in the middle of the night, the night JonBenet was killed, he said again, he wanted to put together a toy.

But when he was asked if he used a flashlight, he said he didn't remember.

But the way Dr. Phil asked the question started with, so your dad said he used the flashlight that night when he put you to bed.

Oh. And Burke agreed to this. He said, yep.

Could it be a slip? Whoops. We just fucked up our stories.

Or could it mean that he didn't mean to answer that part of the question?

You know what I mean? Because he asked kind of a two-parter question.

Yep, which can get a little difficult. So maybe he meant to answer one part of it, and it could have gotten a little confusing.

Could mean a lot of things, but it's definitely interesting.

Yeah. So it was kept in that specific drawer.

It's seen in the crime scene walkthrough video.

The drawer is half open. The Ramseys confirm that they kept that flashlight in that drawer.

So if anyone came into their home that didn't know them, they would not only have been able to find a legal pad and a pen and spent 21 minutes writing that weirdly long and bizarre ransom note, but they also had to have known where this flashlight was or looked around in very random drawers looking for this flashlight until they found it.

And then if the pineapple was not claimed by anybody there, also got pineapple and a bowl and spoons and a glass.

Exactly. Which is crazy. But then again, if we're going with the theory that this might be someone she knows that's an intruder.

Possible. And not necessarily the Ramseys or anybody in the Ramsey family.

Possible. If you look at it as like this all kind of likely, no.

Possible. Yeah. Sure. I don't know if you have the answer to this question.

It just popped into my head. Did they say that they had ever given, like, a key to anybody?

Like, you know? Yes, the housekeeper had keys.

Okay. And we're actually going to mention her at some point.

She was cleared. Okay. But she was questioned.

Because she had keys. Because she had the keys.

Babbel Language Learning App helps crack the case of confusing foreign conversations.

Every unsolved mystery starts with a miscommunication.

But with Babbel's expert-designed 10-minute lessons, you'll be fluent in the facts faster than you can say person of interest.

Over 200 language experts have crafted these lessons using real-world conversations.

Making sure you're ready to communicate anywhere your investigation takes you.

And this isn't just hearsay. Studies from Yale and Michigan State University prove that 15 hours with Babbel equals an entire college semester of language learning.

Right now, decode a new language for 60% off when you visit babbel.com slash truecrime.

That's B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash truecrime.

Rules and restrictions apply. That's greenlight.com slash wondery.

That's greenlight.com slash wondery. Now, we're going to talk actually now about suspects and theories.

I'm going to touch upon each of the theories, including the Ramseys.

This is not me saying that they did it. No.

This is just the theories that came forward and them being part of that investigation.

Now, the first one is Patricia Ramsey. This is a theory I don't agree with.

This is the whole like she snapped because JonBenet wet her bed and she got mad and like threw her into a drawer and then covered it up.

I don't see that at all. Yeah, I don't see this.

It doesn't feel right. I don't see it happening.

It honestly doesn't make a lot of sense.

They weren't known to even have that relationship either.

No. In fact, Burke later said about his mother in an interview, we didn't get spanked, nothing of the sort, nothing close, nothing near laying a finger on us, let alone killing your child.

And he was adamant they did not believe in corporal punishment.

They didn't hit us. They didn't lay fingers on us.

Yeah. And he said, and he answered too.

He said, I never saw my mom like lose her mind angry.

And he was like, she, every parent gets annoyed and frustrated and can get mad.

But he was like, she didn't scream and yell.

She didn't throw things. She didn't hit anybody.

Yeah. Didn't happen. Good. That's what Burke says.

And so, and again, Patsy was distraught in all of these interviews.

You can tell she's distraught. Yeah. Yeah.

Like people, it's easy to pick apart an interview and to look like we do with Berks, you know, and to point at these little things.

And I'm not saying anybody's right or wrong because I do the same thing when I look at an interview.

Yeah, everybody does. And some of these interviews have me corking my brow a little bit.

Definitely. But... I can't imagine being in that position.

I really can't. So it's like, but then the other theory with Patricia is that she helped to cover it up, possibly for her son, Burke, who accidentally might have hurt JonBenet.

That is a theory, allegedly. Now, John Ramsey is the other portion of this, obviously.

People point to the fact that he started in the basement to look for clues when Detective Arndt sent him and Fleet White to search the home from top to bottom.

To be honest, the more I thought about it, I might have started at the bottom, too.

Honestly, I was kind of thinking about it yesterday.

I was like, I don't know. That's not really a lot to point at.

No, it's one of those things that's easy to...

If you look at it quick and you go, well, she said go top to bottom and you went right to the crime scene.

It's like, yeah, that's easy to be like, why'd you do that?

You're still searching top to bottom no matter where you start.

And it's like, I, yeah, I can't say whether I would go to the bottom or the top, but I definitely wouldn't say that I wouldn't go to the bottom first.

So that's a theory. A lot of people point to that, obviously, as like being strange.

Yeah. And did they, sorry, have a finished basement?

Do you know? Their basement was strange as hell.

There was parts of it that were kind of finished.

And then there were like the wine cellar, which was like a dirt floor kind of thing.

And then there was like, I think people said when, in fact, one of the grand jurors, when they said they got a tour of the home.

Um, they said that when they went down into the basement, they said it was like very strangely laid out.

They said it was like very complex down there.

Okay. It wasn't like an open basement. It was like turns and corners.

So you could look at that and say, did he go into the basement?

Because it is so complex and she could have been hiding anywhere down there.

Like kind of what we were saying the other day.

Exactly. Was she hiding? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

And there's a lot of places to look down there.

So maybe he wanted to start with the most complex.

Yeah. Because I know if that was what my basement was, I would probably do that because I'd be like, let's get that annoying part out first.

Yeah. The second and third floor are going to be much easier because it's like closets under beds and, you know.

Yeah. Easier to find someone. But a basement that complex and that like, like labyrinthian would be harder.

Yeah. Now, Fleet White saying – they also point out that Fleet White says that John Ramsey yelled, oh, my God, before the lights were on and that tests were done that said you could not have seen her before those lights were on.

There's that. That's like hearsay, though.

Like, we can't prove that. And it's – Is it compelling?

Sure. Is it compelling that there's people, they did tests and said you would not have seen her.

It's not a thing that would have happened.

But it's one of those tests that you're like, but everybody has different eyes.

So I don't know. I can't. Sure. Does it seem likely that he would have seen her?

No. Does it seem impossible? No. Some people can see better in the darkness.

Could fleets' timing be off? Possibly. Like, were you staring at the light switch that intently?

Yeah, absolutely. It's dark. You don't even know, you know?

So to me, that seems like that was weird to me when I read it, that, like, he said it before the light went on.

And it's still weird to me. But... I can also see that that is not impossible and that that is not a reason to call him somebody who knows anything to do with this case, with what happened.

People also point out that he like ripped off the duct tape and ripped off the cords.

That's just fatherly shit. I'm not even touching that one.

I would have done the same exact thing. I will not fault him for that at all.

And I don't think if he has nothing to do with this, then I don't think that was... him intentionally like or you know i mean like i don't think he was intentionally trying to destroy evidence or something with that i think he wanted to see his baby's face exactly and not see her in that horrific state there's the arranging to leave town right afterwards that's weird that was no matter which way you cut it that's fucking weird in my opinion i got nothing for that That one's a weird one.

Made you look real shady. Sorry, that's just the way that is.

And I know it was like you said you had a meeting, but still, I don't know why that would be on your mind.

And we talked about the different things, like John Ramsey leaving the room where the telephone was, the tap telephone, waiting for the kidnapper to call for the ransom.

That wasn't that weird to me. You and I talked about it, and at first I was like, that's weird.

Why wouldn't you want to be in the room?

Too much pressure. When we talked it out, I'm like, I...

I can't imagine. So it's like, I can't imagine being able to sit still and just staring at this phone and thinking all your thoughts that you're thinking.

Yeah. And then, you know, Patsy not getting up right away when she heard somebody yelling for an ambulance.

That's still weird to me, to be quite honest.

I don't have an answer for that one. But then we said that she had to be carried into the room with JonBenet.

Maybe she literally couldn't move. She might have been, like, catatonic, not able to move.

Like, I've been in shock before, and I, like, you can't move.

So there truly is... With a lot of these things.

Multiple ways to look at it. A way to look at it and go, that's shady.

And then another way to go, well, I guess not.

Right. Like, you know, so it's like, that's why this case is so hard.

Convoluted. Yeah. Because it really is, like, it's horrible that you can look at this, what happened to this family and wonder whether they had anything to do with it and that there is, like, evidence that you're like, ugh.

And then, like, you look the other side, though, and you're like, hmm, intruder does kind of fit here and, like, in different ways.

Yeah. ways. Yeah. And you don't want to sit here and like put this on one side or the other because we don't have the final answer.

Right. And there's so much different evidence.

And this all brings us to Burke Ramsey, of course.

Now, people point to the fact that JonBenet was kind of the star child a little bit.

She was in the pageant. She got a lot of attention.

A lot of time goes into pageants. So, you know...

And John Ramsey worked a lot, so he was likely kind of going.

And he said he went to these pageants with them and everything.

Yeah. This was the thing. But in his interviews, he says that he was used to it.

He was used to the attention that JonBenet got, which is kind of sad.

Like, it's just like him being like, I was just used to not getting as much attention.

Right. But, you know, does that equal murder?

No. Yeah. He did have some troubling behavior when he was nine and a little before that.

He was in this phase of smearing feces on things.

Mm-hmm. He would smear it on JonBenet's things as well.

They did find evidence that day that a box of candy she had gotten for Christmas there was.

So that is pretty recent. Yeah. But that's also like he was clearly a troubled kid.

Yeah. There was stuff going on that I don't know if they were taking care of.

Who knows? I don't know if they were thinking about taking care of it.

Obviously, this whole thing would have changed the trajectory of what they were planning to do.

But the theory that is most prevalent is that maybe Jean Benet snatched a piece of pineapple out of that bowl when he was eating it in the middle of the night.

He got angry. He had the flashlight on the counter with him because he had taken it down there to not wake anyone up by turning on lights.

That maybe he hit her on the head with the mag light.

He didn't mean to kill her, but she went unconscious.

That's a theory. Mm-hmm. Hasn't been proven.

And right now can't be proven, but hopefully someday we will know whether or not that is like absolutely not the case or whether it is.

Burke is adamant that is not the case. Okay.

He has adamantly said he did not hit her with the bag light.

Okay. But there's also, and they brought this up to him as well, that the stun gun marks, that they're not positive are stun gun marks, also fit pretty perfectly with the prongs of his toy train set that was downstairs in the basement.

Okay. So they wondered, did he hit her with the flashlight?

Didn't mean to kill her. She would have gone unconscious from that hit.

Absolutely. Maybe he took the train set or took the train tracks and like poked her to see if she would wake up.

Okay, I could see that. That's a very, like, juvenile thing to do.

It is a very kid thing to do. It was brought up to him in that interview.

He said absolutely not. And he also said, I don't really understand even how I would do.

Like, he was kind of confused by that and was like, I don't even understand.

Like, I would poke her with the train track.

Like, he was like, I don't get that. So he seemed very confused by the whole thing, said he absolutely did not do that.

And he said... I don't find it confusing, but... Yeah, he said he couldn't understand, like, poking someone with a toy train set.

So I was like, okay. And, again, he says that didn't happen.

Okay, yeah. So that is the official statement, that that did not happen according to him.

But Chief Beckner and Detective Steve Thomas believed that the voice at the end of that 911 call, they believe it's Burke.

And they believe it's Burke asking, what did you find?

Burke denies he was even awake at this time.

John Ramsey denies he was awake at this time.

Patsy denied until her death in 2006 that he was not awake at this time.

Okay. So they all claim he was not awake at this time.

He was in his room asleep. Mm-hmm. I'm just saying that Chief Beckner and Detective Steve Thomas fully believe that is Burke on the end of that thing.

But again, we cannot prove it, unfortunately.

The Dr. Phil interview with him, again, they brought out like his childhood interviews with psychologists to like right after the crime and... in the years leading after, he had never even seen these tapes.

Oh, wow. That must have been a bit traumatic.

Yeah. And it was weird to watch him watch it.

Yeah. Because it's like, that would be weird.

Trauma. But in one of them, two weeks after, and actually not even two weeks, 13 days, I think it was.

So just about. He was asked to draw a photo of his family by a psychologist.

And he drew himself. He drew his mother, Patsy, and his father, John.

And he did not draw JonBenet. Now, this is a tough one.

A lot of people said this was an obvious sign that he was, he was moving on.

Like, and he said himself, he was getting on with life.

Even at nine years old, he said, I'm getting on with life.

Okay. And people said, maybe this is him being very indifferent to the entire thing because maybe he knows what happened.

That's what people theorize. You know, maybe, because again, like, we don't know what happened.

Maybe he, even if he had nothing to do with it, maybe he was getting on with life.

They didn't seem to get along. And exactly.

You know? And... kids are weird kids have different minds it's like they just do well if kids are not attached to somebody they don't give a shit whether they come or go no and it's like maybe that was a coping mechanism yeah i could see don't draw her in because you're you're on the next chapter i can't i don't want to dwell on this to me i would expect him to be more conditioned to draw her Because he had had six years with her and this is only 13 days of being without her.

So I would think your mind would just be conditioned.

Here's my family for six years. It's been all of us.

13 days, you're already like unconditioned to drawing her in a picture.

Well, and then you and I were talking about this earlier too.

And I was kind of saying, just like from my expectation, I would expect a kid to maybe draw like, because I think he had said like, dad told me JonBenet was in heaven.

Yeah. And they were religious. And they were religious.

So in my assumption, I would think maybe he would draw her like up in the sky with like a halo or angel wings or even just up in the sky.

Yeah. Just like JonBenet lives in heaven now.

Yeah. Like that's where she is. She's my family, but she's in heaven now.

Because that's the thing. It's like, she's still your family.

Right. Like she didn't stop being your family.

Right. And I was thinking about it and it just made me think of like a recent thing that happened with my kids and they're six, not nine, but like they came home from school and they had to do this whole thing.

Like how many brothers and sisters do you have?

And they had written all these things. And when I looked on the paper, it said, how many pets do you have?

And they wrote one. And we don't. And so they were so conditioned to saying that they had Bubba.

Yeah. That they just drew Bubba in there.

Like, Bubba's part of the family. She's my pet.

Yeah. Even though she's not here. And it's like, so I thought of that.

And that's been longer than 13 days. Exactly.

So that was strange to me, for sure. Does it make him a murderer?

By no means. But it was also brought up that when they were both younger, Burke had hit JonBenet in the head with a golf club.

Oh. But... They claim it was an accident.

It was hard enough to cause a scar under her, I think, right eye.

And Patsy had also tried to consult plastic surgeons.

So it must have been a pretty good donk.

Yeah. But they claimed it was all an accident.

To give the devil's advocate of that, like, or to, like, go for this, really.

I've seen that happen. Like, our neighbors, actually, it happened recently, like, last summer.

Oh, really? Where, like, one of the little, like... Oh, yeah, yeah.

I don't know, like, how old? Like, five or six-year-olds was, like, swinging a bat and donked the two-year-old in the head.

Yeah. And it was a total accident. It was just because she ran in front of it and he was in the middle of a swing.

Yeah. By no means was it like an intentional, I want to hurt her.

No. And so like that can happen. Yeah. But like, but then you pair it with like smearing shit on her Christmas gifts and.

And her having like blunt force trauma to the head.

Yeah. So it's like, that is a very, you know, can it happen with little kids?

Happens all the time. Exactly. The kids get hit in the head accidentally.

And again, I'm not saying like you pair it with the shit and like, obviously he did this.

No, you're saying. You pair it with that and that's what it could look like.

And you pair all those together. That's why the theory emerges.

That's what we're trying to say. We're like, I'm not saying anything.

I'm not. Just to be clear, I'm not saying it.

I'm saying this is where the theories come from.

This is how they get birthed. But again, he claims it was a complete freak accident.

Now, when the doctor asked how he thought his sister died when he was little, he was asked this.

He said he thought, quote, probably a hammer hit her in the head with it.

Oh. So that's a weird one. I guess I can say that in the beginning of this, he starts off by saying, I don't know.

Yeah. She was killed. And then they kind of push a little further and he's like, a hammer.

But that's like really on the nose. And a hammer is the first thing you go to?

That's the thing. Actually, the first thing he went to was a knife.

He thought she got whopped with a knife and he did a banging, like a stab motion.

And then he went to a hammer. She got hit in the head with a hammer.

Okay. So there's that. And as an adult watching that, he said, I thought they were asking me to theorize because I initially said I didn't know and they kept asking me.

So I was like, okay, I'll just come up with something.

Okay. I mean, yeah. So that's something.

The reports from when he was interviewed by psychologists as a child, like the reports that came out of these things, did say that he was strikingly unemotional. very detached, that he had trouble opening up about his family, and that that indicated to them that it was typical of a kid who was hiding something about his family.

Okay. Now, these are just reports. Yeah, and they're not from us.

But they are reports from psychologists.

Now, he says in the Dr. Phil interview that his mother and father loved his sister a lot.

Not we loved her a lot. Yeah. Which, he's a very awkward guy.

Yeah. This could mean he did not love her by all means, or it can mean that he is very awkward and he just said the wrong thing.

Yeah. Well, and one of the, I think we were watching the Dr. Phil interview together and I think it was Dr. Phil that said it.

He had, before he did this interview, had been like out of the public eye for like a recluse.

Yeah, he was, he was, yeah, he had totally isolated himself.

He was even working remotely. He still does.

I was just going to say. Working remotely.

He wasn't around kids when he was little.

He wasn't around adults when he's an adult.

So he is a very socially awkward man. Like just watching that interview.

And you like you would assume that somebody would be if they're removed from the public and peers for that long of a time.

And it's like. So you can look at that and say like, oh, my gosh, that behavior is so strange.

He's smiling through that whole interview.

Like he you could say he must have done it.

But then you can look at the other side of it and say, he's been away from the public for so long.

He's been under scrutiny his entire fucking life.

And now he's on national television. And now he's on television.

I think he's just feeling a little nervous.

You can see it both ways, for sure. Yeah.

I can see merits to both sides of this. And also, if you look at photos of Burke as a child coming out of the funeral, Jean Benet's funeral, he's smiling.

And he's doing the same smile that he does as an adult.

So maybe that's what he does when he's uncomfortable.

Yeah. And of course, like you're going to look at it and say, that's weird.

Why is he smiling? And it is. At first glance, you're like, that's weird.

Yeah. That looks weird. But it kind of indicates that this is just his default uncomfortable face.

Just the fact that I saw it coming out of the funeral, I was like, that's the same smile he was doing in the doctor.

It's the same exact one. It really is. She showed it to me.

And it's like, so I think that might be his default uncomfortable space.

If it's It's either his default uncomfortable face because he had nothing to do with this.

And it's just uncomfortable to be accused.

And he just doesn't know how to react to all of this and like is answering pretty intense questions.

Or it's default uncomfortable face because he knows more.

Who knows? We don't know. He claims he does not.

The town of Agde in France is famous for sun, sand, sea and sex.

But lately, life on the coast has taken a strange turn.

The town's mayor, a respected pillar of the community, has been arrested for corruption.

His wife claims he's been bewitched by a beautiful clairvoyant.

Then there's the mysterious phone calls that local people have been getting.

I am the Archangel Michael. The whole town has been thrown into chaos.

As the mayor is unable to carry out his duties, I would like to address you all.

Legal proceedings have been initiated. Join me, Anna Richardson, and journalist Leo Schick for The Mystic and the Mayor as we investigate a story of power, corruption and magic.

Binge all episodes of The Mystic and the Mare exclusively and ad-free right now on Wondery+.

Start your free trial in Apple Podcasts, Spotify or the Wondery app.

Now, the next, we're going to get away from the Ramsey family now.

We've discussed what people think, why they were thinking about them.

Let's go to the intruder theory. Okay. Now, the first one I'll mention, and I'm just going to do this briefly because this was kind of like sensationalized and crazy, was Alexis Carr.

She was a former teacher who was arrested in Bangkok, Thailand, 10 years after the crime because she claimed she was with JonBenet when she died and it was an accident.

Okay. Bizarre confession by a very bizarre person.

But they also gave very graphic and horrific account of the murder when they confessed.

And they found a ton of child sexual abuse images on their computer at their home.

Okay. Pretty sick human. They were cleared from everything, like DNA excluded them.

Yeah. And then they kind of like withdrew that.

Yeah. And off into obscurity they went. Yeah.

But that was a weird one. I remember that one being all over the news.

I vividly remember that. And people thinking this is it.

Unfortunately, I don't think it was. Now, the next one is Gary Olivia.

He's a known sex offender and like registered sex offender who lived very close to the Ramseys.

He's a convicted pedophile and child rapist now.

And his high school friend received a call from him on the evening of December 26th.

So the day after JonBenet was found? Yeah, the day she was found, actually.

The night after she was found. And he was sobbing and said he had heard a little girl.

But he wouldn't give any details, but he said he was in Boulder.

This friend called the police the next day when news of Jean Benet's murder went public and he told them everything was like, this guy might have done it.

Like he called me and literally confessed and was like, by the way, he's also like a sex offender.

So take that. And they said they would get back to him and they never did.

And he followed up like two weeks later and he said they never responded, never got back to him, didn't even answer the phone.

He had to leave a message. They never called him back.

What? In 2016, Gary Olivia's name came back into the picture only because he was arrested on another charge.

And when they arrested him, he had a stun gun on him.

Oh. And he had cutouts of Jean Benet from a magazine in his backpack.

Oh. That's so gross. And a poem he had written about her called Ode to Jean Benet.

What? Ew, that's just fucking disgusting.

He also admits that he was obsessed with her.

Thinking about a grown man, like when you really actually think about that, what the fuck?

No, I can't even think far into that. That's disgusting.

The most foul of human beings. Now, the Ramsey's private investigator felt that he was a pretty good suspect.

I mean, yeah. But DNA ruled him out. Okay.

But he did send a written confession to this same friend that he called that night.

Because this friend said that they stayed in touch with him, even in prison, hoping someday that he would confess to them.

I remember reading a People magazine article about this.

Really? Yeah. And in the article, he said, I never loved anyone like I did JonBenet.

And yet I let her slip and her head bashed in half and I watched her die.

It was an accident. Please believe me. She was not like the other kids.

I don't know. I think he's just a very sick individual.

He's a monster. He also made confessions similar to this in the past.

Like, he's just disgusting. Yeah. And he's a disgusting, like, pedophile.

Piece of shit. That's all he is. So he was excluded via DNA.

The next one that came about was Michael Helgoff.

He was an electrician who worked near the home, and he worked at an auto salvage yard, and he also did work at the Ramseys before.

Wow. Also, what a fucking last name. Helgoth.

Like, why is that not your last name? I know that's a pretty crazy name.

Now, someone who worked with him before said that he believed that he was responsible for the crime.

And he said about a month before Jean Benet's death that Michael had told him, quote, he and a partner were going to make a great deal and they each will bring in around $50,000 or $60,000.

Now, if you remember, the ransom note said $118,000.

Right. Split in half. That's pretty close.

Close, but no cigar. But no cigar. But he also remembers him saying at one time that when they were walking into the Ramsey residence to do some electricity work, he said, I wonder what it would be like to crack a human skull.

Oh, all right. That makes me never want to hire anybody to do work on my home ever again.

There was an alleged property dispute with the Ramseys as well that he had gotten involved in.

And two days after the press conference about the case where officials claimed they were closing in on the murderer, he killed himself.

Alex Hunter, who is the DA, had said in the presser, this list of suspects narrows.

Soon there will be no one on that list but you.

And then two days later, he killed himself.

And perhaps that's why the police said there's no threat to the public.

Perhaps. So there's that. Maybe. He also had similar boots to the ones found at the crime scene, the high-tech boots.

He was cleared through DNA, though. Okay.

That DNA excluded him. All right. It's excluding everybody.

There's also, the next one that came about was the housekeeper, Linda Pugh, Linda Hoffman Pugh.

She was the Ramsey's housekeeper, and her husband was actually a handyman who would come to the house.

They both had keys, like we mentioned. She said later that she thought Patsy had actually accidentally killed JonBenet.

Oh, yeah. So I don't think they get along.

Patsy claimed that she had asked her for money and Patsy had said that she was willing to give it to her.

That was brought up, I think, as a little kind of like tit for tat, like you say this, I say this kind of thing.

She had allegedly, though, mentioned once that Jean Benet was so pretty and had asked Patsy, aren't you worried someone might kidnap her?

Jesus Christ. Which I'd be like, get the fuck out of my house immediately.

But she also brought a slander and libel suit against John and Patricia Ramsey when they wrote their book.

Because she claimed that they were kind of insinuating that she had something to do with it.

Oh, okay. So it doesn't look like there's a whole lot of meat to this theory at all with her.

No, it kind of sounds just like more like they didn't really get along.

The keys, that's about it. Yeah. Like, that's really it.

And she was also cleared. What a weird thing to say, though.

I know. Is someone going to kidnap your kid?

No matter what, it's a weird thing to say, for sure.

But, I mean, I guess when you put it in the context of, like, she's going to all these pageants.

Yeah. You know? Maybe she was just literally asking, like, are you nervous?

Yeah. But I'd be like, you need to leave.

But the last one that I'm going to mention is the Santa theory.

This is the one where we talk about Bill McReynolds, who was a family friend who dressed up like Santa for...

Did it like years for the family Christmas parties.

And was he at the party that they were at that night?

He was not at the one that was that night, but he had been at a party a couple of days before.

Okay. Dressed as Santa. People claimed that he paid too much attention to JonBenet.

He actually, he was the one that we mentioned.

She had given him like a glitter vial. Yeah.

And she said it was like stardust. And he took it with him into heart surgery.

And then he later said that when he died, he wanted it to be mixed in with his ashes.

All right. intense like for sure yeah it's a lot but you also like people are just weird sometimes yeah it's like i don't think we could really call him a murderer no and what might be like like he might have thought that was just like a beautiful thing to do you know like to each their own when it comes to something like that yeah exactly that's one of those things that it's really hard to like to me in my in my personal opinion that's a little weird but like i don't think he murdered her but not like murderous or weird no Now, there were also rumblings that Jean Benet had told people that Santa promised to make a special visit to her after Christmas.

Okay. So there was that. But that could also just mean, like, he was going to leave her, like, an extra gift, you know?

And people thought this may have been, like, he was going to come to the house and, like, break into the house.

Yep. The police said they never considered him or his wife serious suspects.

He actually died in 2002 of a heart attack at 72 years old.

That's really sad. Now, in 2006, Patsy Ramsey passed away from ovarian cancer.

She was only 49 years old. That's terrible.

Yeah, I had no idea she was that young. She's buried next to Jean Benet and John's daughter, Elizabeth, in Marietta, Georgia.

Unfortunately, she died before there was any resolution to this case, which is upsetting either way.

Yeah. Now, DNA evidence found in JonBenet's underwear, again, was found, and this was like a recent thing, was found not to be connected to anybody in the Ramsey family, and it has an unidentified male.

I hate that so much. Yeah. Now, again, and I'm just going to point to another one, another intruder theory point that I didn't really think of was Jon Ramsey suggested that maybe someone broke into their home while they were at the Christmas party at the White's.

Okay. And that maybe they were waiting in the home until nighttime.

Maybe that letter was written then and they were able to get the layout of the house while they were gone.

I mean, boom. And I was like, that's a pretty good theory.

Bullshit. But I was like, I did not think of that.

And there was the broken window. But then again, undisturbed.

Yeah, that's the only, that's the thing.

How'd they get in? But then there was that open window.

Yeah. And it's like, was it open at the time or was it not?

We don't know. It went back and forth like 10 times.

Do you remember if the open window, like that area was disturbed at all?

I don't think either. Yeah, I don't think they found any kind of disturbance in there, but.

It's a theory and it gives meat to the intruder theory.

Right. For sure. Or maybe one door was just left unlocked and they hadn't realized it.

And they didn't realize it. And they locked up before they went to bed.

Yeah, that could absolutely be it. It's one of those things.

This case is a lot. There are a lot of theories and wrong information and confusing information and weird interviews and kind of damning interviews and, like, interviews with, like, parents that will make you go, what?

Yeah. And interviews with Berks that will make you go, what?

And interviews that you'll be like, wait a second.

Help. Like, it's just... Help. So much. And I know what I think happened.

Yeah. No one's been arrested or charged with this, so I'm not going to put it out there, but I'm interested to hear what everybody else's takes are, if they feel like sharing it.

But this is one of those cases that I think you have to look at every couple of years and you might change your mind.

Or you might at least get like a little bit of like, huh, like that's a possibility.

Like, cause things keep, little tiny things keep coming out that will make you go like, wait a second.

I mean, one of the main things, because I, you know, I have my thoughts, but one of the main things that kind of throws me off of my personal thoughts is that, that boot print.

I know that's, that's a strange one. And the partial palm print that didn't match anybody in the house.

And then the DNA that doesn't match anybody in the house.

Yeah. That is weird. And if you go, you know, thinking about this family doing this to this child, just, this is really horrific.

It's really horrific. They don't come off like a family that would do that, you know?

Yeah, which, like, I don't know what family does.

I was going to say, I don't know how you would come off as some, but, like... You know how sometimes, though, you're like, oh.

No, it's true. You're just like... But I think it's more just like... And I know parents do fucking terrible things to their kids all the time.

Like, it's a fucking terrible world we live in.

Yeah. Where many people shouldn't have kids.

Yeah. But... This is just, like, if you go with the theory where it was, like, a cover-up and they were trying to protect their other kid, wow, they went to great lengths and, like, really made it way worse than it needed to be, if that was the case.

Like, I don't know. It's hard to wrap your brain around.

But it's hard to wrap my brain around any fucking person doing this to a six-year-old baby.

Right. I can't wrap my brain around the fact that this happened to her at all.

That somebody came into her house and did these fucking atrocious things to her body.

Like, I can't. So I don't understand. I don't... I'm not putting my thoughts out there right now because they've mutated a little bit as I've gone through it again.

Yeah. But... Yeah, it's a wild case. And I just, I really hope that someday we get, this is always the case I cite when anyone asks me if you could have one case solved.

It's this one. This and the West Memphis Three.

I want to know what happened. I know, honestly.

I got to know what happened. That one's a little more obvious, but...

Well, that's the thing. It's like, I feel like I know what happened to both the cases.

I just need someone to confirm it with like scientific evidence.

Yeah. I would say that the West Memphis three like has the scientific evidence already, actually.

Yeah. They just need to like say it. Yeah.

Just say it. Put the charges down. Right.

But this case, I agree. I hope that I do for some reason feel like in our lifetime it will be solved.

I have hope. Yeah, I really do. I have hope for it.

Every case is solvable. This is no different.

Look at what happened with the Golden State Killer.

Yeah, I think it could happen. I really do.

And they're pushing to get the DNA retested by an independent police.

And I hope that it points to a specific person.

I really hope so. Just just for even like John and you know, like John to have closure, which again, it's like a shitty thing to say.

There's not a better word. No, there really is.

So he can have some kind of peace. And, you know, for Burke's name to be cleared, because his name really does come up in this a lot.

Of course it does. A lot of people just cite him as the one who did it.

And it's like, if he didn't do it, then damn.

Like, that is awful. It reminds me of, like, the Lizzie Borden case, how it's like, yeah, like, maybe she did it, but, like, also there's a possibility that she didn't, and then she spent the rest of her life being tormented about the brutal murder of her parents.

And it's like, so, we don't know. Yeah, so...

I just don't know. I guess just keep listening and hopefully someday we'll know.

Yeah, I hope so. So we hope that you keep listening.

We hope you. Keep it weird. I don't have to tell you not to keep it this weird.

If I do, that'd be so fucking wild. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music.

Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com.

Hey, weirdos, we need to tell you about something that has completely blown our minds collectively.

There's a new show called Lawless Planet that's uncovering true crime stories so massive, they're affecting the entire planet.

Post-Zach Goldbaum is investigating real cases where environmental destruction meets murder, conspiracy, and cover-ups.

We're talking about activists who disappear in the Amazon rainforest, whistleblowers who risk everything to expose deadly corporate secrets, and communities being silently poisoned while powerful people profit.

What makes these stories truly terrifying?

They're happening right now. This isn't history.

It's a massive criminal conspiracy unfolding in real time with consequences that affect us all.

Each episode feels like opening a case file into the darkest corners of corporate and government power.

Trust us. Once you start listening, you will not be able to stop thinking about these stories.

Follow Lawless Planet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to new episodes of Lawless Planet early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.

[존베네 램지 사건: 풀리지 않는 미스터리와 의혹의 심층 분석]-[Episode 367: JonBenet Ramsey Part 2]

📋 Summary

존베네 램지 사건: 미해결 미스터리와 의혹의 기록

1. 엇갈리는 수사와 정치적 개입

2. 미스터리의 핵심: 파인애플과 손전등

3. 의혹의 중심에 선 사람들

4. 아직 끝나지 않은 이야기

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript