Hey weirdos, Elena here. If you're looking to kick back and relax with Morbid, Wondery Plus is the way to go. it's like having a cozy seat in our haunted mansion no ads just you and early access to new episodes You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
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I have been listening to the Martha's Vineyard Beach and Book Club, which actually Elena recommended to me.
She did not listen to it, but she said, girl, this title sounds so you.
And let me tell you, it did. I've been listening to it while I walk, and I am absolutely loving it.
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The sale ends 831. Don't miss it. Hey weirdos, I'm Elena.
I'm Ash. And this is Morbid. And we have, excuse me, Elena as some mother.
Fucking news. Guys, this is the most exciting intro I've ever done to this podcast, but...
I got a book coming out. It's happening!
It's all happening. Yeah, I wrote a book.
It's called The Butcher and the Wren. And it is going to be published by Zando Publishing, who is my savior, the love of my life for picking it up.
Dream publishing house. Uh-oh. It is coming out September 13th, 2022 this year, so only in a few months, but...
What's really exciting right now is you can pre-order it right now.
I know because I just pre-ordered five. No, like I really did.
You really did? No, I did. She was like, I would like 65 of them.
If your sister writes a book, you pre-order a hundred, but I'm making my way downtown.
I love you. I love you. I love you. But you can preorder this book.
So I'm really excited about it. It's exactly what you would expect from me.
It's set in Louisiana, mainly in New Orleans, because you know how I feel about New Orleans.
Wait, We love a Louisiana setting. And so it's about a serial killer.
It's got a female medical examiner named Ren.
Don't know if you got that. And... I'm really excited about it.
It's exactly what I've wanted to write forever.
It's horror. It's psychological thriller.
There's like a little tiny bit of comedy sprinkled in there, kind of like my life.
Your gala. humor. Exactly. It's in there, but I'm very excited about it.
I think you guys are going to love it. And I know you guys are going to.
Eat it. I think it's right up your alley.
It's right up my alley. So I know it's right up your alley because we're all one. all of us.
So I had you guys in mind a lot of the time writing it.
I was like, you know what? love this. I feel like they would dig this.
So if you want to pre-order it, which please pre-order it because I worked for like five years on it.
You have to. It's been a labor of love for literally five, like my entire twins lives.
I've been working on this. But you can go preorder it right now at tinyurl.com slash preorder.
The Butcher and the Wren. And that is Wren, W-R-E-N.
Yes. I'm gonna link it in the show notes.
I don't know if you've seen any more announcements on social media and stuff, but the link will all be there too.
But I am so excited, guys. This is like a huge dream come true to become an author.
My sister is an author. It's so weird to even say it out loud, but it's been a long time, a lot of work.
Hopefully there'll be more after this because I got more in me.
There will. I got more in me. They're all in.
They're all up in here. She's literally already started.
I have already started writing more. But I love it.
I'm excited about it. I'm proud of it. And I hope that you guys dig it.
But go go preorder if you will, if you will do me that solid.
Do her the solid. I would appreciate it. tinyurl.com slash the butcher and the Wren.
That's Wren, W-R-E-N. And if you're feeling so inclined, pre-order five.
Yeah, there you go. Pre-order five. Why not?
Be like me. And the first 100 people who preorder are going to get a signed poster.
Does that mean I get five signed posters?
So there you go. You're gonna get five. Just kidding.
No, we'll save them for you guys. Of course.
Yeah, so there's a fun incentive. do it and we'll do some fun things throughout the rest of the few months before it becomes officially able to be held in my hands and your hands.
And we'll let you know as soon as that is coming and keep you like completely up to date on everything with it.
But hopefully this is just a really awesome beginning to it.
And I can't wait for you all to read it.
I can't wait to hear what you think of it.
I can't wait to smell it. I am. So excited to smell it.
I want to crack those pages open and take a big whiff.
Take a big ol' whiff. I'm so proud of you.
I'm very excited about it. And everybody's been super amazing, super helpful in getting this going.
And, you know, not only like, you know, Zando, who just they got it.
That was the best part when they got it.
And I was like, you know what? You're my people.
Yeah, that's home. But there's been like people in the, you know, in the true crime podcast world that have been like huge helps.
Ash has read me out loud several drafts of these pages.
For years. For years. I've been reading just like random parents.
I haven't read the book in its entirety because I've always wanted to hold it as a book. but I have read like PDFs of this book for the past five years.
I needed to hear it out loud to make it because in my head, I know what I want to say.
Yeah. But when you hear it out loud, you're like, oh, that doesn't sound right.
When you hear how somebody else is going to read it.
And guess what? I've done that for the past five years and haven't gotten sick of it once.
Yay! Love to hear it. And you know what?
John has been... I like he'll randomly just be like, go right.
If I'm suddenly like, oh, I just got this idea.
He's like, get up there. Bye. Like, see you later.
He's amazing. He's also been someone that I can be like, hey, is this too much?
Does this make sense? And he's like, Nope, it's not.
It makes total sense. Like go for it. He's like so encouraging about it.
So again, thank you guys for like. Because you guys gave me a little bit of the confidence to finish it.
Yeah. Because I was like, you know what?
Like, I have someone to write this for. Like, I can't wait for you guys to read it.
Make sure you go and pre-order it. Give us the URL again.
Tinyurl.nope. It was right. I was right.
I was like, why'd you stop? url.com slash the butcher and the rent i'm just really excited go it's going to be in the show notes it'll be on all our socials it'll be on the Zando website Z-A-N-D-O
So excited. It's going to be everywhere.
It's pretty much all I'm going to post for the next, what month is it?
Like four months? Oh yeah, I'm going to do TikToks about it.
I'm going to be shoving this down everyone's throat in the best way possible.
You're going to do it very tastefully, everybody. i'm so excited for you but i think you're gonna love it and i'm excited she's an author an author was born So with all that being said...
Now we're going to get into some Louisiana crime because.
That makes sense. Duh. Because the book is set in Louisiana, everybody, in case you didn't get that.
Fuck. This is a gnarly one and I brought it way back into the 30s because that's what I do.
That's who I am. You are known to do so.
I love the old. So this is a crazy one. I had...
An interesting experience going through the newspapers once again.
Always. Gotta love old newspapers. Now, this is the story of the Butterfly Man.
Oh, yeah. Okay. Weirdly, that doesn't play like the biggest part into it, but it's called the story of the butterfly man because I think it's the creepiest it sounds for sure yeah it sounds like mothman it sounds really you'll see why he's called that I don't know if I want to see why he's called that.
This takes place in Shrevesport, Louisiana.
It took place on the morning of April 15th, 1934, sometime between 8.30 a.m. and 9 a.m., So at this point, a young man named Will Marion and his companion Albert Green were set off to go fishing near Cross Lake.
Apparently Cross Lake is where Shreveport got their water supply from.
Didn't know that. Found it in a newspaper.
But they were just going to go fishing, as they often did.
And they took a shortcut because, again, this is their constant fishing spot.
So they just always go this way. Now, as they're walking through this dense forest filled in by spring at this point.
Beautiful. Because it's April. Yeah, April flowers.
It's a beautiful setting. They're off to go fishing.
What else could you want? Yeah, I did the April rhyme wrong, by the way.
You did. and i just i just kind of let it go let it go i was like you know what yeah sometimes you do sometimes let it slide sometimes i'll let it slide for you i know i know it showers today is that day I'm feeling good today.
So I'll just let it slide. Do you have a book coming out?
I do. Oh my God. It's crazy. Okay. So. Filled in by spring.
Spring. Greenery everywhere. And Will... he sees something and he's like, it was immediately strange.
Never saw this before. And he saw what he initially thought looked like a random pie of clothing covered with leaves in the middle of the woods. as we know that is often not the case that is just a random pile of clothing nor a mannequin No, he thought this was strange because why the hell would clothing be this far into the woods?
And it just appeared this day. So he's like, what?
This is what he said, according to Bloodstained Louisiana, which is a book by Alan G. goth row and i looked up how to say that so alan i truly hope i said that correctly If I didn't, please tell me because you wrote a book and you deserve to have your name said right.
Also, it's a really crazy book. It's not just this case that's in that book. blanket, obviously, but it's not just this case.
It's a bunch of cases from Louisiana that I had never heard of.
Yeah. So in that, this is what Will said about finding this.
He said, quote, We were walking through the woods and I saw something piled up in a cluster of brush and I told Albert, I see something.
And he says, well, what is it? And I said, I don't know until I get there, which I love that he's like, this is like, I'm not there yet.
He said, What is it? I said, I don't know until I get there.
So then I'm like, OK, thank you for setting this scene so specific.
And Albert says it looks like something dead.
And I told him to wait and go over there and see.
I went over there and I saw that there was a girl that was murdered. and she had a cluster of leaves and rotten wood piled on her, and she was lying kind of on her side with her legs spread open.
So when Albert walked up, I told him, don't come up any closer than 10 feet of the body.
He, Albert, asked then what we would do about it, and I told him, in a case like this, we would have to go and notify the sheriff's department. correct which makes sense everybody knows there are things they can do to reduce monthly costs and improve their finances But who has time to go through all their expenses and decide on what to trim?
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That's rocketmoney.com slash morbid. Now, at first I was like, I do love that he was like, well, in a case like this, in a case of murder. we should go get the sheriff.
Like, if it was a different circumstance, they would just go fishing and go about their lives.
If this was just somebody else. At first I was like, that's hilarious.
Why did he say that? Then I looked it up.
And in every old newspaper, they got to tell you that these are two black men who found this white woman in this woods.
Oh. And what that says to me clearly is they were scared to go to the sheriff.
Of course. Because at first I was like, What are these kids worried about?
Like, of course, you're going to go to the sheriff when you find a dead body.
Yeah, but then you... But then when you get the context of it, you're like, yeah, no wonder you were.
And you know what? They're really good people for actually risking their own safety going to the sheriff.
Because in this time. Right. This was the 30s. the 30s in Louisiana, I'm sure that was not an easy thing to reconcile in your own mind that you could immediately be blamed for this.
Absolutely. And it has happened. Yeah. So that was interesting because I didn't know that until I dug into the newspapers and then that comment made a lot more sense.
Yeah. is right there. Yeah, it's right there.
So now they have to find someone close by to report this to because they don't want to just leave this scene for too long.
Because who knows, one, if the killer is just waiting, and maybe will come and get the evidence and leave, or they're waiting to, like, strike against unsuspecting witnesses.
You don't know. So they run full speed to a local business nearby.
The owner's name was Lee Thompson. And they told him everything.
They were like, you got to call the sheriff.
We had nothing to do with it, I promise.
But somebody's got to get out here. So Lee calls the sheriff's department, but he told them I am not going out to that scene.
He was like, I will not meet you out there.
You guys go ahead. He's like, I saw what I needed to see.
I saw more than I needed to see. Well, the two boys were like, okay, and Lee Thompson, the business owner was like, I'm not coming.
So the boys were like, we'll go wait for the police, which again, could on them.
Seriously. It took two hours for Sheriff Thomas Roland Hughes and the Shreveport police chief, Dennis Baser, to show up at the scene.
And they brought with them parish coroner, Dr. W.P.
Butler. Why did it take that long? Not sure.
I mean, it's the 30s, so I'm sure it's not like. they can just zoom there as easily as they can now.
And it's in the middle of the woods. So I assume it's like they had to get out there to find it, you know, and like the coroner had to bring like their shit to get out there and actually move the body it's a long time but i'll i'll you know what i'll give it a little bit of like 30s leeway yeah So the coroner took extensive scene notes and also drew a sketch of the scene that I think we should post because it's a very interesting sketch.
Let's do it. It shows a strange scene for sure.
So according to the coroner's notes, she was lying on her back Her legs were intentionally spread open.
One of her legs was bent at the knee. Her right arm was over her chest and the other one is splayed out to her side.
The victim was wearing a yellow print dress and also a black coat that was completely soaked in blood.
Oh. She appeared to be a teenager. They said whoever the killer was, they had staged parts of the crime scene.
They had removed items from her bag and placed them in weird areas.
They had placed a jar of face cream, her hat in a cloth.
They had stacked them on each other and placed the stack between her legs.
That's weird. Which, like, what? He also had put pieces of wood and leaves around the body in a circle pattern.
And it appeared that they had actually intended to start maybe a fire, but had abandoned that plan for some reason.
There was also a bloody knife assumed to be the murder weapon found at the scene.
Interesting that they just left it there.
Yeah. I mean, again, I think they're just not worried about it.
I feel like it's 1934. DNA wasn't even like a thing.
Yeah. He was like, DNA who? They didn't even know we had DNA.
They were like, whatever. So the coroner noted that, quote, her head slightly to the left, like I said, right arm folded across the chest. left arm folded up to the left side and towards the face, left leg extended and markedly out to the left, right leg thigh extended and left leg folded backward. it was clear to the coroner that there was some sexual aspect to this crime Her clothing was intentionally hiked up in a way that suggested assault.
And the fact that her legs were clearly intentionally spread.
Now, the victim's body was taken to the morgue and an autopsy was immediately done on her.
The victim was thought to be a teenager initially, and they were right.
They guessed she was about 15 or 16 years old.
She was 5'4 and about 112 pounds. Her hair was, quote, long, hanging loose, auburn in color, and very bloody.
Ugh. Now, interestingly, he also noted that maggots were colonizing in the area of the neck where a large wound was present.
Does that mean she had been there for a few days?
At least a couple of days. This allowed him to estimate that she had been dead for two to three days before being found because blowflies will find the body and lay eggs within two days usually.
Now he said in his notes, quote, the throat was cut in several places, what they determined later to probably be about four.
Whoa. Yeah. One cut began two inches below the lower border of the left ear. crossing under the chin and terminated three inches below the right ear.
This cuts completely severing the left carotid artery, jugular, and trachea. another cut just below the first one beginning about three inches below the lower border of the left ear, ranging down to the right and crossing the trachea and ending in the lower right side of the neck.
There was a bruise on the right side of her neck, mid portion, that had the appearance of being made by a finger or a thumb.
There were three small cuts in the palm of each hand going through the skin.
Vaginal examination was made before the body was opened and showed normal organs externally but with with slight secretion in the vestibule, dry blood, tiny larvae of maggots starting in one location, in three tears about one-eighth to one-quarter of an inch long in the vaginal opening.
So she was sexually assaulted. Three tears.
Very aggressively. Two on the right side and one on the left.
It is brutal. This was a brutal attack. Oh, wow.
And that's not all. Dr. Butler also found very aggressive stab wounds to her torso. that actually went between her ribs and penetrated her liver and lung. gosh so he slit her throat and four times slit her throat and stabbed her in the torso overkill to the maximum degree.
There was also a lot of defense wounds to her hands because she had fought very hard against her. attacker.
Now the victim ended up being identified as 15 year old May Griffin.
A baby. Yeah. She's 15 in some records and some of the newspapers and stuff.
She's labeled as 16. I'm not exactly sure.
She's at least 15 or 16. That's how old they think she was.
When detectives found out where her family lived, they went to her home and they talked to May's family, including Maggie Peters. who is also referred to as L.R.
Peters in some newspapers, just putting that out there, who was her widowed mother.
She said a man named Jackson, he referred to himself as Jackson, had come to their home Thursday, April 12th. at around 11 in the morning.
He was looking for a young man or young woman, he said, to become an aid and like a maid for him and his wife.
Okay. He said his wife was like kind of ailing.
He worked as an auto mechanic and he worked nights.
So he said he needed help during the day.
Doubt it. Doubt it. He was looking for a young woman because he wanted his wife to be comfortable.
And he thought that would be, you know. He didn't even had a wife.
No, they were kind of just like, hmm. I don't know about that.
So he left and he came back a couple more times and was like, I've talked to other people.
I haven't found the right person. i feel like you're like a great fit and like she would really like you can we maybe like could you maybe come meet her and see if this is something that you would want to do it's so that would give me like such bad vibes because I've already told you I'm not interested so why do you You think I'm a good fit if I'm not interested.
Exactly. Because it's like, if I'm already telling you I don't want to do it.
I'm probably not going to want to do it.
And that's not good for your ailing wife if I'm annoyed that I'm doing that job.
Correct. So she initially said no several times, but then after getting probably annoyed with his persistence, she was like, you know what, I'll come meet your wife.
And I'll see if this would be a good fit for work.
So she ended up leaving with Jackson from her home somewhere between 12 and 1 p.m.
Her mother, Maggie Peters, said she herself was very against this and told her she could not go.
But she said she gave in because Mae was like, let me just meet her and maybe it's a job.
Like, who knows? So she was like, I just gave in.
This is so sad. It's like Albert Fish again, because it's like these kids are just looking for work.
There are so I was literally just going to say this is so similar to the Albert Fish thing where the mother is like, I initially didn't want to say yes.
Right. But I didn't want to be rude. And I also didn't want to like, and then this ends up happening.
Right. Oh God, I hate that feeling because you want to say like, no, be rude and twist your gut.
Just be rude. I can't even tell you how many times I'm like...
I don't want to be rude. Yeah, I don't want to be rude.
So I'm just going to do this thing. I know.
But it's just not, you don't have to be, man.
I think the older I get, the ruder. I'm going to become.
Yeah, I've definitely learned that the older that I get, the less I give a shit if somebody is like... aggravated with me not wanting to do something.
It really does come with age. I feel that you get more and more comfortable with it.
I'm starting to get there. I'm not fully there yet.
But the other day I said to Drew, I was like, you know what?
I don't owe anybody anything. No, you really don't.
You don't. It comes with like friendships too when you're older that you all start to realize. that none of you are going to give a shit if the other one is being rude.
Ash is making faces. You haven't quite got there yet, but I promise you, I swear you hit your 30s. and the friends that you have, you all just get this silent pact with each other.
If they're like if they're like real friends.
Yeah. That you all are just like, Let's not bullshit each other.
Let's not sugarcoat each other. If I say, do you want to go to this restaurant and you don't want to go there?
Just tell me no. fucking just say sure and then not have a good time or not want to or just like cancel for some other reason, just tell me.
I don't want to fucking go there. Pick another restaurant.
We're all just like, I don't give a shit.
I don't care. Nobody's going to hurt anybody's feelings.
We're all just being real with each other.
At this point, my feelings are like, they're barely there at this point.
I'm just like, you're not going to hurt them because they don't exist.
You're not going to hurt them. You have plenty of feelings. have a lot of i was just gonna say you have a lot of a lot of feelings you're full of feelings but you know why we love you but they're they're slowly dwindling no you know hit your 30s it'll be great five more years then you don't give a shit But yeah, so this is very much like the Albert Fish thing.
It is. They were also, you know, this was during a time when shit was not going great.
It's 1934. Yeah, there's not a lot of work to be had.
Not a lot of work. This family in particular, Mae's family, was going through it.
They were very, very poor. They lost her father.
They had lost the father. I mean... These are people who are preying on people that are desperate. and is the same in Albert's fish face, which is even, this is what's even weirder.
Albert Fish himself was not a well-off gentleman No.
He was preying on somebody that was in the same dire straits as he was.
And as we'll see in this scenario, this person is in the same dire straits as these people and is Why are you doing that?
I mean, you shouldn't pray on anyone, but why are you praying on someone in the same situation as you?
You know how hard it is because they don't have feelings.
They really don't have feelings. But what's even crazier as a little parallel between this and Albert Fish's case was after an hour of May leaving, Her mother started to get worried and was like, I don't know about this.
I just have a really bad feeling. So she started contacting some family members and she was like, okay, so he said he lives at this address like let's go see that place check it out what they found out was that address was fake Oh, the exact same thing that Albert Fish did.
But they actually fake address and they don't find out until it's too late.
Both cases. Both cases, they get a fake address.
Which comforts them into thinking, well, I have an address, so I'll just go there.
And then they find out too late that it was...
A fake dress. Oh, my God. So wild. I didn't mean to do that either.
Like pick these two cases. Sometimes that happens. it's weird very weird I think something similar happened in the last case I did yeah but um What was I going to ask you?
Oh, so if she... So the police are going out there and they're like, we found your daughter.
Had she already called? contacted them at this point because she had been, because Mae had been gone.
I guess what had happened was they had had family members out looking for her and then they had contacted.
So that's how they were able to identify her was they matched it up to the missing report and it matched up with her.
Gotcha. And I'm sure they did something else to find out, but that was definitely the one thing and they were going to have the mom come and double identify.
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Take two. So, I mean, this was only within a couple of days she got this news.
And I'm sure this was horrific for her to hear after two days of hoping.
Which I don't, honestly, with the way this all happened... like i feel for her because she probably didn't even get to have hope because when you find out it's a fake address You're pretty much just assuming the worst.
You know something nefarious has happened here.
Like, nobody gives a fake address after they take your child out of your house without... really bad intentions oh god yeah i felt really bad for her Now, Mae was actually set to marry in the spring.
She was going to marry a boy named Lee Looney.
And he was part of the search to find her.
He came to all the court cases. Yeah. Were they like in love or was this like arranged?
Right. I think it was like kind of a both situation where they really did like each other, but it was kind of. like an arranged thing that like they grew up i think together and we're just gonna get married okay But he was part of everything.
He didn't just like, because who knows if it was like an arranged thing, he could have easily just stepped aside and just. been like well that's that.
On to the next next. Yeah like it's just and I'm glad that It seems like they really did love each other, or at least like each other, that he was involved in everything up until the end.
So now they're looking for this Jackson guy, because he was obviously the last person to be with Mae before she disappeared. and the fact that he gave a fake address and never came back is not looking great for him.
So witnesses all around the area remembered seeing Mae that day.
And they said that it was around the time that she was said to have left her home.
And they also remembered seeing her with an older gentleman who resembled the description of Jackson."
So all of them are saying, yes, I saw her with him.
Okay. Now, a woman who lived only two blocks away from May's home said that that morning they had been visited themselves by a man. matching Jackson's description as well.
And this man was there to sell them butterfly bows that he made.
What's a butterfly bow? He would hand make these little... little accessories out of like, you know, paper and fabric that he was found because he, He said he was homeless, and this is how he made his money.
He would make these little bows that looked like butterflies.
Oh. Because it was like of the time. Yeah.
Like the fashion of the time. Girls wore them in their hair or on their coat.
Like a butter, like pre-butterfly clips. of the 90s.
Exactly. These were like paper, fabric and She called him the butterfly man.
Ooh, spooky. I don't like that. Now, reports came forward calling this man a, quote, pleasing man.
I don't know about that. Everyone was like, well, I saw her with a pleasing man.
So he apparently looked very, like, innocuous.
Sure. He didn't look like, you know what it is?
He didn't, when you see any picture of him, I'm like, maybe he dressed up that day.
I'm like, He does not look pleasing to me.
I would be like, she was walking with...
Terrifying nightmare, man. That's what I would think.
Gotta open my computer. They said he was about in his 50s.
Okay. And that was according to the Park City Daily News that I found all those witnesses reports.
The search went far and wide for this guy.
They opened it up. They were trying to find this butterfly man.
Yeah. Now, it was in Tallulah, Louisiana, which is like the most adorable name for a place, I think.
Tallulah, Louisiana. Louisiana. I love the name Tallulah.
I think it's the cutest name I've ever. I'm like, wow, that sounds delightful.
Tallulah. Does anybody live there? Is it delightful?
If it's not, don't tell me because I have this vision that like it's beautiful and adorable.
I don't know about it. Just, you know, I feel it.
So I'm just going to go with it. I don't know about it, like if it is, but I also feel the same like i just don't know things about it i know nothing i just don't have a fun fact unfortunately this These losers were found in Tallulah, Louisiana.
So detectives L.K. Barney and Lloyd... Napier located for men.
They found or excuse me, I think only three men.
Just kidding. They located J.A. Conroy, Fred Lockhart and A.J.
Jackson. Okay. AJ, so AJ Jackson, physically looked like the Jackson who had come to Mae's home, according to descriptions.
Oh. And that's, and again, his last name is Jackson.
Right. And that's going to ring alarm bells.
They arrested the three of them and brought them down to the Cato Parish Courthouse.
Mae's mom, Maggie Peters, was brought in to take a look at the three suspects.
And she was going to identify them. And she initially said that J.A.
Conroy was the man. She pointed at him and said, that's the man that took my daughter away from my home. but it was not convincing to the detectives.
The reason being, that they were bringing her in for the identification, but she identified him as they drove her past the courthouse.
And he was pacing outside. So she didn't even really get a good look.
So she really didn't even get it. not exactly a perfect situation to identify someone there.
Also, these kind of identifications can be tricky.
I don't know why I couldn't say that word, but It's hard.
It's tricky to say even. We saw in Albert Fish again how Delia Budd became known as an unreliable witness. because of the number of men she declared was Frank Howard.
Loved ones, especially a parent who has just dealt with their child being taken away from them, never mind being taken away from their home. with their technical consent, it's not always the best person to have come ID someone. emotions, eagerness to find the perp, and desperation are just gonna play into it, and it feels like it did here a little bit as well.
Yeah, it just makes sense it's completely understandable it's like of course they're gonna be that way Now, this was released to the public, that she had identified J.A.
Conroy as the guy who did it. People went nuts.
Of course, a 15 year old, 16 year old girl was just brutally murdered.
A child murderer. crowds gathered immediately ready to enact some serious vigilante justice on what they thought.
Was a child rapist and murderer. Yeah, because that's the thing I was going to say.
She was also like brutally assaulted. Brutally assaulted.
And it was all revealed. So they had... Because in every single newspaper I read, it said that she was criminally... assaulted and back then that's saying rape right now They had to sneak him away from the courthouse for his own safety because they were like surrounding the courthouse.
And shit got even crazier later. Like, the crowds back then with vigilante justice, whoo.
Because also it was like, what the fuck else were they What else were they doing, I guess?
Now, on the morning of April 17th, 38-year-old Frank Lockhart suddenly broke down and confessed that he had murdered Mae Griffin. out of nowhere.
He basically said that when he saw J.A. Conroy being basically taken down for it, he suddenly had a weird conscious thing and he said, I couldn't let him take the fall.
Weird. Because he's like, we don't even really know each other.
Now, funny that he's 38 years old, because people thought he was at least 50.
And he looked it. I was just going to say, I looked at a photo and I was like, I would say that man was like 72.
He was also described as an elderly man in a lot of the descriptions.
He looks like it. And he's literally John's age.
Holy shit. I didn't even think that's a hard 38.
Yeah. I don't know what you've been up to.
Now Lockhart had an alias, DB Napier, not related to the detective that took him down, which is weird.
Oh, super weird. I know it's very weird, but he would use that alias to get out of the many crimes that he had already been convicted of.
Now, he was also known around town as the Butterfly Man.
He was the butterfly bow salesman. I hate that.
Sound familiar? It does. He had been living under a railroad overpass. in a makeshift community of homeless people in Shreveport because a lot of people were really down on their luck then.
So there were these whole communities that would basically sell their stuff out of there and they would just kind of stick together.
He did indeed have a wife. shut up he was not lying who also lived with him under that railroad overpass what He had a business where he made those little hair accessories and other odds and ends and he would sell them.
And he said the story of a man named Jackson coming to May's house and asking for a young woman to be hired to take care of his sick wife. was completely true.
Stop. And he was like, I do have a wife.
She is ailing. I did need someone to take care of her.
I have a house for her to come to to take care of her.
He initially said that he was really looking for that.
That's what he claimed. And I was like, I don't think so.
And then what happened to get us to this point?
That's the thing that nobody can get out of him.
So he said she willingly came with him to talk about the job.
And he said, quote, We then went down the road and hit the Greenwood Road and then went across and through the golf course and went to that next street and there was a little dim road that led off the lake.
I told her my wife was down there fishing and we should wait for her. she may griffin sat down and i put my arms around her and she hit me yeah she hit him so why did you touch her was not putting up with this disgust disgusting leches like assault essentially like don't touch me and she hit him in the face good good for her Why did you randomly put your arms around me, you fucking weirdo?
You are a lech. bye right go somewhere like you're disgusting not only are you you're not allowed to touch me Without my consent, you piece of shit.
Yeah. Like, you're 38, I'm 16. Are you kidding me?
Yeah, I'm about to be a whole ass married woman.
You are literally on the way to take me to your wife who you say is sick that I'm supposed to take care of.
Like right there. Like, what are you doing?
So then he admitted that he started groping her.
Ew, oh my god, what the fuck is this guy?
And she told him to stop and fought him, but he persisted.
Ew. And as she tried to fight him off, he pulled out a concealed knife, like a pocket knife, and stabbed her in the side where it It perforated her liver.
Holy shit. He said, quote, I went on and assaulted her and then I cut her throat and left and went home.
Are you kidding? Like, for what reason? Because she wouldn't let you touch her and grope her and assault her, you piece of absolute shit.
Shit. So this, that's why this happened.
This happened because he said he had seen her before.
And he wanted to assault her. And he was mad that she wouldn't let him.
You know what's so interesting? We got to talk, me and Alina got to talk to our uncle who's like a retired police detective.
Like when you were first saying that she had been stabbed so many times and like the brutality of it all, we were talking to our uncle. and he said your first thought, and my first thought was, oh, then we must know, she must know the person who did this to her.
Because that's anger, and that's rage. Because that's anger. personal our uncle was telling us like sure that is the case sometimes but not always it's just that people get angry it's not that it's personal all Well, not even just that.
Also, that he said, no one likes to hear this, but people don't die easily.
And he was like, people think that a million stab wounds are always because it's a personal thing, which a lot of times it is.
Sure. But he said, unfortunately, you don't just stab someone once and they immediately die, like in the movies.
He was like... sometimes it takes a long time and a lot of times they don't want these killers don't want to leave a scene before the person is dead so they do it just keep going just until they stop breathing and that's when they can leave right which I was like, wow, that's such a simple explanation, really clinical way of thinking about it.
But like I for some reason, it just didn't occur to me like.
I think your humanity just can't necessarily get you there unless you work in something like this day in and day out and you start to realize a pattern.
Yeah, it's just all of a sudden you're like, yeah, you're right, actually.
It does take a lot of stab wounds to kill someone normally.
Yeah, because as soon as fast. As soon as he said that, I was like, wow.
Because there's been so many times where I've covered a case with like... crazy amount of stab wounds.
And I'm like, so immediately they knew it had to be personal, like it had to be someone she knew and I was like well shit uncle now I'm gonna think about that yeah It really is.
He's a fascinating character, actually. Oh, my God.
He's so cool. And we're going to try to convince him to like...
Just tell us stories so that we can record him and like do a whole thing about it.
We'll see if we can get him. It would be so epic. interesting because it's my dad's brother and it's it was really fun to talk he's a hot shit he is Shopify's point of sale system helps you sell at every stage of your business.
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Shopify.com slash listen. Now, so yeah, he just said, I went on and assaulted her and then I cut her throat and left and went home.
Just like, wow. You showed up to her door.
You said, my wife is ailing. Come see her.
And then... one thing led to another like one i love how he's just talking about this like Then I went to Shaw's and picked up some produce and then I killed this girl and then I went home.
And he's literally like, I tried to assault her.
She wouldn't let me like literally grope her.
So I stabbed her and then assaulted her some more and then cut her throat and then I just went home.
For some reason, the word grope immediately just makes me like nauseous.
It makes my skin crawl. Now, he also broke down a couple of times during this confession saying that poor little girl.
Oh, God, why did I do that? Because you're a filthy fucking animal.
And it's like, no one believes you, dude.
Yeah, you're a piece of shit. No one believes you, as we'll see.
This is not his first rodeo. Really? I don't believe those tears for one second.
No, he probably just wanted them to pity him.
Yeah. He also said, quote, my conscience wouldn't let me go on.
I'm guilty about everything that has been said about me. yeah no let me get this straight your conscience wouldn't let you go on but your conscience allowed you to murder a little girl And allowed you to try to escape.
Right. Like you, you were fully trying to get away with that.
You just got caught. No conscience to be had here, sir.
No. And it's also like one of those things that's like, you know what? my conscience wouldn't let me go on.
Like, they didn't do investigatory work to get to this point.
It's like, oh no, this wasn't your conscience.
And like you being like, guys, I am guilty of this. like, no shit, we know that because we gathered evidence.
This was our due diligence. Thank you. Thank you so much for confirming.
Have several seats. Yeah. The knife that was found at the scene was identical to a knife found in the shelter under the overpass where he lived.
And in that shelter where he was specifically living, they also found bits of bloodied clothing that when investigated, they found to belong to Mayfair. griffin and they were clothing that was worn the day she was murdered The other men were released pretty immediately because he was Like they, I don't even know them.
And they were like, we have nothing to do with this.
Imagine how... Sorry, what was his name again?
J.A. Conroy. Imagine how he felt that day.
Yeah. Talk about a sigh of relief. Oh, yeah.
Well, actually, one of them, I'm not sure which one was quoted as saying, it was a grand and glorious feeling to be exonerated, which I imagine.
Seriously. Because this was going to carry a sentence of death, regardless of what was going to happen.
You were charged with this and you were convicted.
You were going to hang. Thank goodness they found the right person before that happened.
Thank goodness. Now again, this came out and a mob was ready to kill him themselves.
Let's go. with the numbers being reported outside the courthouse of being between 2000 and 5000 people. armed with bricks, clubs, and ropes.
They stormed the perimeter of the courthouse to try to get at him.
Initially, they were just around the courthouse yelling and threatening and just being like, fuck this guy.
But after the confession became public knowledge and some of the details came out, two women got on top of a truck, two women, right?
Got on top of a truck in front of the entire crowd and yelled to them, you're a bunch of dirty cowards if you don't go in and get them.
And that's all it I know that I'm not supposed to be rooting for this, but I'm rooting for this.
But when you listen to it, you're like...
Oh shit. Well, it's like she was a child.
I think when you kill a child, certain things happen to you.
So it's like vigilante justice is never the answer.
So we are clearly joking here. And also this was the 1930s.
This is also like already happened. So we can't control it now.
But also it's like we're being, you know, facetious.
But yeah. I can't... When you hear it, you're like...
Me and Elena are low-key the two women on top of the truck.
I was going to say, you're a bunch of dirty cowards.
If you don't go in there and get them. That would be you.
I'd just be pointing at you. I'd be like, what she said.
That's my girl. I'd be like, come on. Now, the crowd just, that was all it took.
They were like, you are correct. Women.
And so they just split up. Women. Women.
They actually split up according to the Bluefield Daily Telegraph and one half kicked in the front doors and 200 of them got into the first floor of the courthouse, while the other half attacked through the basement. but they couldn't get to the seventh floor where the jail was because they were stopped.
And that's where he was being held on the seventh floor.
Every officer and firefighter in the entire city had to be called in to get this under control.
They were blasting people with fire hydrants, fire hoses.
They were using tear gas just trying to control this.
Oh, man. What a wild scene. And then I saw that at one point it was reported, and I was like, wow, 30s.
Because they were like... the damage to the courthouse was estimated to be in the hundreds of dollars.
My God. And I was like, oh boy and then i was like well this was the 30s yeah today it'd probably be like millions But it was like the hundreds of dollars.
Can you imagine having somebody be like...
That was like $100 worth of damage. I'd be like, sick.
What a bargain. Sick. That's easy to fix.
That's crazy. Great. I bet the court has that.
I'm not worried about it. But yeah, it was mayhem.
I guess tons of people got hurt. It was like, it ended up being like a really, nobody got like. killed in this nobody was truly hurt to the point of like you know But see, that's why vigilante justice is not worth it.
That's why it doesn't work because people get hurt.
Right. And again... Confessions can be made under duress.
This one in particular is not the case for that.
But it's happened. Happened a million times.
And if we just let people... A big angry mob is never a good thing.
Mm-mm. And it is never a logical thing.
It is never anything that is going to have a great outcome, a big angry mob.
It's just not going to happen. So, because this isn't like a, you know, some kind of rally or a protest.
This is like just out for blood. And that is no good.
But they had to bring everybody in to get this under control.
And it was so bad that Sheriff Hughes had to ask the governor of Louisiana.
His name is O.K. Allen. Okay, Alan. Okay, Alan.
To send a company of the Louisiana National Guard to help make sure that no one killed Lockford.
Lockhart. Gosh. Now they sent four members of the National Guard to keep watch 24-7 over the courthouse.
Major Walter B. Randall was the battalion commander on duty, and there were actually machine guns on hand for protection.
Holy shit. That's how crazy it got. Now, meanwhile, they started digging into Lockhart's record. yeah they were like he had to have done this before that's the thing i was that's the one thing i was gonna say is like you don't just do this one day this is not your Your first.
No. Murder. Like this is a very intense murder.
And to act that quickly like in a. And they're like staging and shit, which he never explained.
And I'm sorry about that, that he never explained.
I'm so angry. He never explained it. I think it was just to shock, personally, I think.
But it's like so weird to put her face face cream out.
I think it was just her intimate things that were in her bag.
So I think it was just his way of exposing all of her...
In that, like, shocking way. And it was, like, taking ownership of everything and ownership of her in a way, I think, was his...
Logic psychology is wild. As we'll see, he has already been down the sexual assault highway before, so he's very sexually aggressively, like, you know, sadistically sexually motivated.
Right. So I have a feeling that was all tied in.
Makes sense. Now, they found out that this man had actually escaped prison in 1931.
That's why he had that alias. Guys... He escaped while working outside for the prison and he had been in prison supposed to be serving a life sentence for a brutal sexual assault on a young woman.
Dude. So he had done this before. He also admitted, and this is crazy.
He admitted that he had driven a car that led to a lynch mob in 1915 in Georgia.
Now, When pressed further, he described the exact mob he was talking about, and it was a wild case that everyone was very familiar with.
In 1913, a 13 year old girl named Mary Fagan was found murdered at the bottom of an elevator shaft in Atlanta, Georgia.
Yeah, it's a crazy case. She was last seen speaking to and coming out of the office of the office manager of the building.
His name was Leo Frank. Now, he was immediately arrested and charged with murder.
And it's important to point out now that he was Jewish and anti-Semitism definitely played a role here.
He was convicted of her murder with little to no evidence.
Wow. And people to this day are still trying to get him pardoned because people do not believe he did that.
And he was lynched. He was initially given the death penalty, but it was commuted because even the governor of Georgia at the time knew he was not convicted. on enough evidence for that.
While he was serving the now commuted life sentence in Milledgeville, Georgia, a huge group of like this angry vigilante mob broke into the fucking prison and kidnapped him with the guards watching and allowing it.
They drove him for two and a half hours to Marietta, Georgia, where Mary Fagan was from, and they lynched him in an oak tree.
There are pictures of it and shit. It is horrific.
It's crazy though how many times that happens in cases where people are racist.
They will break into the jail and drag these people out and the guards will just stand by and watch.
And the guards will just watch it. happened like it's happened a million times and how many times did it happen where these people have nothing to do with this crime that they have just been Nine times out of 10, it's it's black people that this happens to.
We met as we see it also happened to like Jewish people. and like just pure racism, anti-Semitism.
Like what the fuck? We mentioned it in the Lake Lanier episode. literally almost the exact thing happened to a black man and he definitely was not guilty it Exactly.
And he's a young black man. And again, another reason why vigilante justice is not the way to go.
It's like... Because look what happened here.
And it's like and so he was saying Frank Lockhart was saying he drove the car. that drove Frank two and a half hours to the spot where he was killed.
So not only is he a brutal child murderer, rapist, he's also an anti-Semite.
Exactly. Hang him. How terrible can you get?
And he drove the car with Frank inside of it, Leo Frank.
I was like, whoa. And that story is just...
So I got to I'm going to go further into that story at some other time, because People really are trying to get him pardoned now.
It's a horribly sad story. And he was...
To me, from what it looks like, I'm not convinced at all that he had anything to do with Mary's.
She just walked out of his office. I think he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Isn't it so scary how often that can happen?
Wrong place, wrong time. It will happen with my case this week as well.
It's awful. Wrong place, wrong time. And it's like.
Actually, it can happen to anyone. It can.
And it all just comes from a simple, innocuous decision that you make for your life. that you would just never think of.
Yeah. And it's like, and then you add on to it, like it happens more to, you know, marginalized groups.
It happens more to black people. It happens more to Asian Americans.
It happens to back then, especially it was happening more to Jewish people.
It's like having that, like, we all have that chance of being in the wrong place at the wrong time at the have he added it's horrible that like some people have to walk around And it's gross that today it's still a thing.
It's still happening. Probably as often as it was before. back then at this point in time.
It's just, it's so crazy to me. Like that story really, I was like, holy shit.
Society has a lot of work to do. Yeah, we sure do.
And I and I stumbled upon like the pictures because they were in the article I was reading.
And I was like, Oh, Lord, this is bad. The town of Agde in France is famous for sun, sand, sea and sex.
But lately, life on the coast has taken a strange turn.
The town's mayor, a respected pillar of the community, has been arrested for corruption.
His wife claims he's been bewitched by a beautiful clairvoyant.
Then there's the mysterious phone calls that local people have been getting.
I am the Archangel Michael. The whole town has been thrown into chaos.
As the mayor is unable to carry out his duties, I would like to address you all.
Legal proceedings have been initiated. Join me, Anna Richardson, and journalist Leo Schick for The Mystic and the Mayor as we investigate a story of power, corruption, Binge all episodes of The Mystic and the Mare exclusively and ad-free right now on Wondery+.
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But yeah, so this guy said he was the car that drove this whole thing, which makes I'm like, whoa.
Yeah, he's disgusting. It was a big revelation to them, too, because this was a big case.
Right. And they were like, what? Like, you were part of that?
What the fuck? That's who you are? Robert Rhodes requested a grand jury hear the case, and they began the trial on April 23, 1934.
So this happened like bing, bang, boom. It was like April was a busy month for this case.
Every season. It was April. packed courtroom with over 200 seats and people lined up outside.
Like everyone wanted to see this. Everyone involved took the stand, including Mae's mother, and she publicly apologized for J.A.
Conroy for... wrongfully, like wrongly identifying him.
What a sweetie. And it's like, it's okay.
You don't have to apologize. I know, it's like, it all worked out.
So we don't even have to go there anymore.
But the trial lasted a little over three hours.
Wow. With the prosecutors being the district attorney, James Galloway, with assistant counsels Nash Johnson and John Pleasant, which I was like, what a...
Cool group of names. I know. Nash Johnson.
I love the name Nash. Actually, the name Nash is in my case this week.
Oh really? That's funny. And the defense had W.A.
Mowbray and C. Blanchard acting as attorneys for Lockhart.
They were a pointed to him. And then the jury deliberated for literally five minutes.
Shut up. Before coming back to say he was guilty as charged.
I'm surprised it even took that long. Judge Rhodes sentenced him to death immediately.
Bye. Now while waiting for his sentence to be carried out, the Chattanooga Daily Times, this was just an interesting thing to me.
I was like, I don't think that's it. They publish an article saying that Dr. Paul Jones, who was a pastor in the Central Church of Christ. in Shrevesport, gave a sermon called Who Killed Mae Griffin?
Now, this was after the news came out. remember this was after they found the guy he confessed and was sentenced to hang for her murder literally he's doing a sermon who killed Mae Griffin, but in his opinion, her murder was, and I quote, the breaking down of home teaching and discipline, the poisonous effects of immoral sex, the obscene magazines and literature, the daily crime catalog in the public press, the gambling houses, dance halls, saloons, and roadhouses.
He said anyone who took part in any of that shares responsibility for the murder of Mae Griffin.
So you are, we are all murderers if we have taken part in any of that, sir.
And I was just like, wow, how out of touch can you be?
I don't know about that. What a bad hot take. you had sir like that's just i love that it's like i know we caught the murderer and he admitted that he literally raped a child just because he wanted to and that he was actually in prison before for doing that.
And then he brutalized this child and murdered her and left her body under trash and leaves in the woods.
But it's... But I think it's just immoral sex, personally.
It usually is. In the dance halls. I think that's what it is.
What? Because I did the fucking hokey pokey the other night.
That's Why? Get out of my face. Come on.
I was like, that is so off base. And like, I would just, I'm like, that's-
You know what that was? He hadn't put a sermon together yet.
And then he was like, oh, shit, I really got to come up with something here.
Yeah, and it's like wouldn't- can't we just say he's an evil fuck and he's to blame here?
Right, or just maybe have a sermon about happy things instead.
And maybe say a prayer for May if you feel Exactly.
And I guess Frank Lockhart had actually written... in his confession that he grew up in a religious home and he should have listened to his parents and blah, blah, blah. and he went through this whole thing and was like, I went down a bad path and blah.
And it's like, yeah, okay, so you had two good parents, it sounds like.
Right. that like so that doesn't matter like he grew up in a good house like they tried to instill some And he chose, because he's an evil fuck, to go down that road.
Yeah, I don't think it has anything to do with Dan. halls or magazines or music so it's like we can't really some people are just some people yeah some people just like some people suck Some people are also just evil.
Yeah, some people are just shitty. And some people are great.
And some people are wonderful. It's just the way of the world.
Some people are just okay. And that's cool.
Some people are tepid. Some people are lukewarm water that's been sitting on the table for like maybe a little too long.
Water that's gone bad. Yeah. You know, it's got a little fuzzy.
Some people are tepid. Some people are fuzzy.
Yeah. It's like, we can just admit that.
It's fine. There's all kinds of people.
Didn't you watch Sesame Street? Didn't you?
There's bad people, good people, helpers.
I don't know. Helpers. Look for the helpers.
That's Mr. Rogers and Daniel Tiger. Correct.
Yeah. They all come from the same thing.
Wow. Where are we? Where did we go? Where did we go?
I love you. Sorry, we took it to a mighty, mighty Boston's place for a second.
At Drew. As one does. Yeah. So... We're going to end it with May 18, 1934.
Frank Lockhart was hanged without incident.
Good. the end wow that was it Okay, that was like such a bang, bang, boom.
I don't even know what I was expecting. It was.
I'm glad that he came forward, obviously.
And that's the thing with these cases is a lot of times it's like you don't get like You have to really dig for details, which is fun to me.
I love digging for details. but sometimes you don't get the uh like you don't get the the reasons for certain little things at the crime scene like he's not and he wasn't going to give it to us Yeah, I have to tell you something funny.
I was gonna say you're I was thinking like you're like a paleontologist digging and but I almost spoke too quickly and said, you're like a podiatrist.
That's exactly what I am. a foot doctor.
Yeah, I'm exactly, no, you don't need to say anything else.
I'm like a podiatrist. That's really all.
We don't even need to go any further. My brain.
No context. Is a place. I am just like a podiatrist.
Complex problems constantly circulating up in this room. solve solving world problems up there podiatrist versus paleontologist same thing man And with that, we hope you keep listening.
And we hope you keep it. Weird. But that's a word that you don't know the difference between paleontologist and podiatrist because like what?
Because we both create jobs. At Ross. Thank you.
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