Hey weirdos, it's Ash here, ready to share a little secret.
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I have been listening to the Martha's Vineyard Beach and Book Club, which actually Elena recommended to me.
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I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is Mobbed.
Yep, here we are. It only gets morbider and morbider.
This is actually going to turn into like a month of Albert Fish.
Okay, so here's the thing, everybody. Well, not a month, but you know what I mean.
Here's the thing. I literally never for one second intended this to be more than maybe two episodes.
Yeah, that's what she said. That's what she she tricked me into this part.
I tricked myself into this. Honestly, you all tricked me into this because you requested this case so highly that I was like, all right, I gotta do it.
Yeah. And then I was like, if I'm going to do it, I got to do it right.
It's a lot of information. It's a lot. Here, I thought I was going to get into... I was like, you know what?
Two episodes. I'm thinking we get through everything.
We do the trial for the second episode. It's kind of wild, but...
Here we are. We're at part three. And we had to do this late because...
I just kept, I couldn't stop because I can't stop.
Like literally can't stop, won't stop, will stop.
Need to stop. Stop and get the guac. Yeah, I gotta stop because I was like, okay.
I'm going to edit this down. I'm going too hard.
I'm getting too crazy with it. I was at like 40 pages of notes.
And I was like, I gotta stop. I gotta end this somewhere.
I think I'm writing a dissertation. For like your mental health.
And I never meant to write a dissertation on Albert Fish.
I never meant to get my PhD in fish. I just never meant to do that.
Nobody did. But here we are. So we pushed this to today to release because I was like, okay, I got to edit this down.
I don't want to make it four parts. guys I'm sorry it's gonna be four parts I can't I can't edit it down I can't do it I feel like I'm going to be taking out things that are important or things that like shocked me or... made me think more about it.
I just have to talk to you about it. I'm sorry, but it looks like from the reactions, you guys want four parts.
So everybody said yesterday, like I saw on like Twitter and Instagram, everybody was like, oh, my God, make it four parts like we want it.
Which I appreciate. I appreciate you guys allowing me to really go ham on this.
Yeah. As much as I don't want to, I have to.
It is going to end at four parts. Four parts is, it's already done.
You gotta do what you gotta do. Yeah, it's already done.
It's ended. I have vowed to my husband to... all of the you know to to every goddess that ever existed that I am stopping.
I am no longer looking through old newspapers.
I have been banned from newspapers.com for a while.
Self-banned. Self-banned and my husband's like, please stop.
He's like, stop it. I see the tab open. Stop it now.
Close it. Get rid of it. Get rid of the subscription to newspapers.com.
Throw the whole computer away. But... I have to stop, so we are done.
Okay. But there is going to be four parts because otherwise this particular episode... would end up being hours long.
And I don't think anybody really has the time or patience to sit through that.
So I'd like to break it up for you. But luckily, you're getting the fourth one tomorrow.
Yay. You're only going to have to wait like 12 hours.
You're getting a 12 hour reprieve, uh, Which you'll probably need.
You definitely will. The fourth episode is going to be mostly trial. and his execution, everything that happened during that, uh, Because it is important.
The trial was wild. So I feel like it's an important one to really take the time on.
And I wanted to make sure that I could talk about him, his confessions that he gave and things that he talked about, how he went back and forth. the psychiatrist's point of view and all this.
They had tons of what they called alienists, as I'm sure you've heard of.
But... Yeah, this one's going to be mainly talking about the lead up to the trial because holy shit.
A lot led up to this trial. This was not just arrest, put him on trial, put him in jail.
Not just poopoo carrots arrest. So no, not just poop carrots and jugs of tea.
It was. But here we are again. I'm sorry.
But it seems like you're not upset about it.
So I'm always apologizing because I want to make sure that you guys are happy.
Yeah. So four times, four times, four episodes, and then we end.
Sorry, my brain is mush. Your brain's like...
And you're getting it tomorrow. So that's the end of my rant. here we are.
So when we left you, At the last episode where we needed to pause, the Buds have received a terrible letter.
And this is... Six years after Grace has gone missing, they have suffered through this.
And it is now they're getting a letter that says, I'm not going to read you the whole letter I did in the last episode, but I'm just going to refresh you on what I did read.
It says... And it said, like, my dearest Mrs. Budd.
Like, get the fuck out of here. Like, fuck right off. um it says on sunday june the 3rd 1928 i called on you at 406 west 15th street Brought you pot cheese, strawberries.
We had lunch. Grace sat in my lap and kissed me.
I made up my mind to eat her. On the pretense of taking her to a party, you said yes, she could go.
I took her to an empty house in Westchester I had already picked out.
He then explained that he waited in a room naked while she picked wildflowers outside.
He called her in. He attacked her when she tried to run.
She yelled at him, I'm telling Mama. I hate that part.
He strangled her with his knee to her chest on the floor.
He cut her to pieces, according to him. He cooked and ate the pieces for days.
He also made sure to tell her mother that he never raped her.
He stated she died a virgin. I don't understand why he's saying he like maybe that's true, but why was he naked? that's well that's the thing why are you standing naked in a room exactly like that's not the truth i don't believe it as we're going to see He's, I don't know what to believe when it comes to him.
Right. He's a monster. He's a child torturer.
He's a child killer. He's a rapist. He's a...
Weird as fuck dude who has every kind of paraphilia you can ever even conceive of.
Yeah. But I don't know what is true and what isn't when he goes into these graphic details.
Right. Because I also think that he just, that's part of his thing.
Part of his kinks are that he likes to write these letters.
Write these obscene letters. He gets things out of getting people like upset and shocked.
With written word. So I feel like some of it is just bullshit.
Yeah. And some of it is just for him to get off on the idea that you think he did that.
Yep. And it's also what he wants to do, but he might just not have done it.
Who knows? I think he did. Because there's no way for us to know with her because there's nothing left.
Oh, that's horrific. All we do know is that he did dismember her and we'll get into that afterwards.
But again, I'm. going to be as careful as I possibly can.
I know this one is like a really hard one.
And I know that it's being dragged out, but I'm trying to be as careful as possible because I don't like talking about these things.
No. But this was definitely a real letter, because as we've said before, the Buds had gotten a ton of, like... fake letters of shitheads that just decided that they wanted to fuck with a grieving family who lost their child.
I don't really know who those people are, but like, get fucked if you're that person.
And we know this was a real thing. And Detective King, who was the lead detective, Detective William King.
He was the lead detective on this and he knew that this was real.
Because he, like I said in the last episode, had put a bunch of fake details in the press. to try to draw the real people out, like the strawberries and cheese bit.
That was not in the press for him to mention that.
That was a pretty big detail. So they knew it was.
And so they took this handwritten note and they compared it to the handwritten telegram. that was sent the day that Grace was taken.
And the handwriting matched perfectly. So this was already like, okay, what the fuck can we do?
They knew this was the real quote unquote Frank Howard.
Because remember, they think his name is Frank Howard at this point.
Right. So let's get into it. I'm going to start off by giving you...
A couple of little quotes from Albert Fish himself, because I want to started off with me saying we were just talking about how we think he may have exaggerated some things. and just wanted to do certain things but didn't actually.
And he almost... confirms that himself in a way or he at least makes us think about it with these okay So this is a quote directly from him.
He said, quote, What has Albert H. Fish done?
Sometimes I myself am not sure what is real and what is not. what I've really done and what are things I wanted to do and thought about doing, so long that it got to be as if I had done them so that I, quote, remember them just as clearly as the real things, just as clearly as that hot Sunday in June when I went to the window and whistled to that little girl, Grace Budd, and she stopped picking daisies and came in.
Oh, God. And then he said, but some of the other things are just as real, though I can see that people don't believe me when I tell them about it. to when I tell about them.
That makes me mad. I mean, not being believed makes me mad.
What's the matter with these people? Don't they want to believe the truth about me no do they want to just close their eyes and ears and make believe to themselves that this sort of thing i can tell about doesn't exist Well, it does, and plenty.
There are lots of us. We know how to find each other. and get together and have fun.
We use the matrimonial agencies and the want ads and there are hundreds of other ways.
We have our own language, a sort of code.
I'll tell you all about that when I get to it.
No, thank you. Not only does this make me think that...
He doesn't even know what he's really done.
Right. Or he does, but he's also so delusional. he's so like intertwined it with his fantasies that I think he can't tell what he's done and what he just wants to do.
It's like when somebody lies so often that they just start to believe their own lies.
Pathological liars and chronic liars just start to believe.
They're like, wait, did I do that or did i just say that i did that it's one of the scariest things on planet earth the mind is a crazy thing yeah And then on top of that, he's sitting there and saying, there are lots of us.
We know how to find each other. Fucker, I know you had help.
Yeah. I'm telling you there are more people here.
For him to say there's lots of us and we know how to find each other and have We use these certain agencies and want ads to get victims.
We have our own language, a sort of code.
That's so fucked. To me, there's other people here that just haven't been involved.
Maybe those two instances, too, were different.
Like the person... waiting in the car maybe that was one person that he was working with yeah and then i think it was like the same week that he was walking along the road with an older woman and a younger gentleman Totally different people.
Who knows? Maybe he could have been working with both of those people.
That's just, to me... I cannot discount this idea that I'm not saying he definitely had help.
He could have. Who knows? Maybe it was just him.
Right. But I'm saying we just can't discount the idea that somebody else was involved here.
I don't know why he wouldn't give this person up.
But then again, he's a weird fuck. And I... Who knows?
He might have just... Taking the blame for it.
Yeah. Just because. Maybe it's part of his whole... thing that he gets to get all the credit for this and he doesn't want to give it to someone else yeah I don't know.
It's so, this case is like so much more bizarre than I ever realized.
Me too. And that's why it's taken so long to get through it because I'm like so many things have popped up that just made me think too much.
And I feel like if I just glossed over it or I didn't think it through or I didn't go down that avenue enough, I would be like, I would finish this out and I would feel like I didn't cover the whole case.
So that it just needs to be at least looked at.
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So now it was pretty intricate how they were able to tie this letter that was sent to the Buds to Fish.
On the envelope he used, so they had the handwriting, but of course they don't know who Albert Fish is.
No. Frank Howard. They think it's Frank Howard.
Yeah. So on the envelope that was used to send this on the back of it, there was this little like stamp thing and it had a bit of writing on this stamp.
But that's that writing was scribbled over like he had meant he tried to like conceal it.
Yeah. He didn't do a good job. Okay. So with very little effort, they could see that it's actually set under there, NYPCBA.
Okay. which stood for the New York Private Chauffeurs Benevolent Association.
So this is like a union of sorts of chauffeurs.
Okay. So, of course, now King is ready to nail this guy and he runs down there and he asks, do you have a Frank Howard who works for you?
And the people working there look through all the files and they're like, no, we don't have any Frank Howard.
We've never heard of a Frank Howard. So he was like, okay.
So he was like, you know what, can I look through the files of these members and look at the handwriting? for the anything they've signed or written there was 400 members he looked through every single one yeah To see if he could match the handwriting anywhere, not one of them matched.
Are you kidding? Yeah. So not wanting to settle though, because he was like, there's a connection here and I'm not just discounting this.
So he's not going to be deterred at this.
He begins setting out to investigate every single one of these members because he was like, maybe they changed their handwriting.
Like, we gotta look through this. None of them were fitting the bill, and none of them were lacking alibis for that day.
Like all of them were like... None of them had... Like there was no records associated with them.
It just didn't make sense. So a dead end.
But... No. While he's doing this interviewing that isn't panning out in the way he's thinking it's going to. one member heard the story of Grace Budd and he was like a lower member that was like, kind of an assistant in a way, like he wasn't one of the higher ranking members.
And I think he also did like maintenance And he had heard the story of Grace Budd and he heard Detective King talking about how this was his aim, like trying to find the guy who did this.
So he was like, I got to come clean about something and I don't even know if it helps you.
But he said. So this man was Lee Sikowski.
And like I said, he was a maintenance guy, did a little bit of like... errand work for them.
And he said, I took home some stationery. from the NY.
And he said, I brought it home to the rooming house where I was staying.
And he said this rooming house was at 200 East 52nd Street and I was in room 7.
And he said, I didn't end up using all of the stationery or envelopes and the remaining ones I just put on a shelf in that room.
And when I left, I vacated, I just left them there.
And he said, I never went back for them And they probably were there when the next tenant moved in.
Oh, shit. So he said, I'm... Maybe you should look at the next tenant.
What a spider web of... Yeah, way to get there.
And he was like, I don't know if this helps, but I just got to tell you, I can't.
And they were like, all right. So Off King went to that building and he talked to the landlady.
And she said there's no Frank Howard who lived here ever.
There's not a Frank Howard living here now.
But she was like, can you describe, you know, what this, you know, Frank Howard guy is supposed to look like?
So he had the buds description of them. Right.
So he was like, okay, here's what he looks like.
He's an older guy. He's frail. He's got a gray mustache.
He's got like super sunken in cheeks. He looks like the boogeyman.
And she was like, actually, and she was like, that sounds exactly like someone who had been rooming. here in room seven yeah and he was like oh and she says name.
Yeah, he only left a couple of days ago.
He had a gray mustache, thin, older. So he asked, he was like, can I see where he signed? to rent this room.
She shows him in the name Albert H. Fish. is written in script that is the exact same as the letter to the buds.
Stop. So King told the Brooklyn Daily Eagle that, quote, this was the first time that the suspect was identified by another name other than Frank Howard.
Oh shit. So she said, the landlady, she said, this guy, Albert Fish has been receiving checks from his son.
John, who is actually working in North Carolina right now.
Every month, John sends his father a $25 paycheck that he he's working for oh but he's like supporting his father oh and she told him there was one check that had not been collected yet He said it's actually on the way.
So she said he hasn't collected that check and he told me that I need to hold that check and tell him when it comes and he will come back and get it.
So she was like, he's going to be back. I can get him back here.
Right. Oh shit. This is like perfect. So they stake out the place like 24 seven.
But days and days go by and nothing. He's not calling about the check.
The check isn't coming yet. They were thinking he was kind of...
He was either a bullshitter or he was aware the cops were surrounding the place, so they started dispersing.
They were like, we can't keep doing this.
We gotta make this less obvious. But they kept an eye.
And Mrs. Schneider, the landlady, was like, I will call if something changed.
I said, I promise you the second I find out.
So they were disheartened. They were thinking the chance was gone.
They were like, I don't think he's coming back.
Maybe we went too hard maybe he saw and he's now who knows where oh shit But then December 13th comes around.
Yeah, it does. This was weeks after this whole thing.
And Mrs. Schneider calls Detective King at the station and says, I have one Albert H. Fish here.
Right now. And he is asking about the check.
She must have been shitting herself. Oh, yeah.
And he's like, girl, just vamp real quick. for me and I'm going to be there right I'm going to be there so soon but just like do a little soft shoe, keep them entertained.
I'm just like picturing this in my head as a scene in a movie.
And like, she's like quickly like in the back, like.
Like, I got him right here. Go back and talk to him.
And she's probably sweating fucking blood.
She's like, yeah, about that check. Let me just dig through really quick.
And he's like, you all right, Mrs. Schneider?
And she's like, oh, I'm totally fine. How are your kids?
And the thing is, this seems like it's going to be so climactic and like crazy.
It's not. It's not. And it's like King gets there, Detective King gets there and she's like, he's in that room.
I had I made him some tea. I told him I was going to dig out the check like he's just in there sitting at a table.
And so he walks in, Albert Fish is sitting at a desk, drinking some tea.
And when King comes in, he goes, Albert Fish, and Fish nods, stands up, reaches into his pocket, slowly takes out a razor, and holds it in front of him. uh-huh detective king literally walked up to him grabbed his tiny little wrist twisted it, the razor fell, and that's it.
What? There was no like attack. There was no wrestling to the ground.
He walked up to this little man. grabbed his wrist, and flicked it.
Boop! He said... Twisted it, razor falls.
But he looks him right in the eye and goes, I've got you now.
Oh my god. That's it. He just said, look at the flick of that wrist.
He just... And I love that Albert Fish just takes He takes a razor out and is just like, I'm going to get you.
And this guy literally doesn't run up to him, doesn't attack him, just walks up to him and goes, who the fuck are you?
No, you're not. And then just licks and drops it.
Just like, who are you? You stupid guy. I also think there were more people involved.
This guy walked up to him and went, boop, and he dropped the razor.
Yeah, no. He was also 5'6 and 118 pounds when he was arrested.
He's my height. And he's 118 pounds. Not my weight.
Like, he's like... That's like... very that's a tiny man a tiny like body mass yeah it's very tiny for sure So Detective William King was actually credited by many sources as doing this almost single-handedly.
Like he was... He was promoted for this.
Everyone credits him as the guy who wouldn't give up on this case and the one who was the one who caught him in the end.
Right. And disarmed him even. And disarmed him with a flick of the wrist.
No, off to the police station where they sit down.
King shows him the letter and says, did you write this?
And Fish looked at it and goes, yes, I did.
Wow, this is anticlimactic. So anticlimactic.
And he told him he had also sent the telegram that day.
He was like, yeah, that's me too. Okay. And so he's like, okay.
And then he's like, so you're the man who kidnapped Grace Budd?
And he goes, no, I'm not. What? And he goes, I've never been there.
I've never met her. I've never met her parents.
Why are you lying about that? So King was over it at this point because it is fucked.
It's been close to a decade that this guy has been doing this.
He's done. He's over it. You are Frank Howard.
You are Albert Fish. Get the fuck out of here.
So he goes, all right, well, you're an asshole.
And I'm just going to go get the people from Western Union to confirm you were the telegram writer.
I'll also get every fucking person you talked to that day, including Ruben Rosoff, who sold you that cheese and the strawberries that day.
I'm going to get the storekeeper who unknowingly held your torture tools for you.
I'll also get every single land person in every single rooming house you've ever lived in.
And I will also get the entire Budd family down here.
If that helps jog anybody's memories. And so he's like, be our motherfucking B. His last name is King for a reason.
He turns around to leave and Fish goes, don't get any of those people.
I'm lying. I'm the guy who kidnapped Grace Budd.
Okay. He goes, I took Grace Budd from her home on the third day of June and brought her to Westchester and I killed her that same afternoon.
Oh, I hate that. So he literally, I love that Detective Kim was like, all right, fucker.
I'm just going to literally get every single person you've ever met in your entire life down here.
And they're all just going to take a fucking look at you and tell me who you are as a person like BRB.
Right. If you want to play that game. And as soon as he goes to walk out, he's like, you know what?
Forget it. I get it. Actually. So he has been taken down by a flick of the fucking wrist.
And a threat of getting people in there to look at his face.
Yeah. And he's like, you know what? And he's like, oh, fuck.
Never mind. I'm tired. I'm over it. So confession time.
He just, whoop, I'm gonna let you know everything.
And King wrote it all down as he spouted it out.
And when it was time to take his mugshot, because they had to pause to take a mugshot of him...
The Brooklyn Daily Eagle reported that he was very nervous and slouched over.
He had to be pushed onto the lineup plate, where, quote, under the bright lights there, he blinked, winced and shook his head from side to side.
Are you kidding me? And he had no real reasoning for why he did any of this aside from what he called bloodthirst. that he started to get, according to him, the summer of 1928.
Yeah, right, Albert. Yeah, fucking right.
Now, he explained that he had originally intended to kill Edward, which was a shock to everyone, obviously.
Imagine being Edward. Yeah. Because he was looking for a male, he said.
And he said that when he saw him, he was not really happy because he did not look like a child and he was looking for a man that looked like a child apparently.
Great. He looked like a strong young man and that wasn't his thing, but he was like, all right.
And he said his whole plan was to bring him to that same house where he killed Grace.
But he was going to overpower him, he said, which I say L-O fucking L.
And it makes you think, obviously, there was somebody there that was going to help.
There's no way he looked at Edward Budd and thought he was going to overpower him.
There's no way. And his friend was supposed to go as well.
And he was like, I figured I could just overpower them.
He's just not routing. It wasn't happening.
He was going to tie him up, this was his original plan, and cut off his penis.
Oh my God. And then he said his plan was to leave town and leave Edward to bleed to death alone.
No one knew where he was. Imagine Edward hearing that later.
No. That he was... This close. To bleeding out.
To being left alone, castrated to bleed to death. probably his friend that do like the same thing and then and then to know that that was the plan also and then your baby sister is taken instead And like knowing that, like I can't imagine what he was thinking.
No, and he probably felt like some kind of guilt.
Survivor guilt. And because like, I'm not saying like it's his fault by any stretch of the imagination, but he like put that out of the paper.
Of course. So he probably feels this crazy. crazy survivor that he brought that this man came into their lives because of that.
Well, Albert told King one detail that like really hurt. my heart when I read it.
No, thank you. They, so he said that when he took Grace, They took a train to this cottage, which locals called Wisteria Cottage, and he had actually lived there at one point.
He took the train with her and he said she was looking out the window at the country and she hadn't been there for... very often and blah blah blah.
And he said he had bought himself a ticket there and back, but only purchased her a one-way ticket.
So it's just like that was so chilling. But then there's another thing.
When they got off the train, he left the package, the one with his implements of hell and shit on the train and grace pulled on his on his pants and said you left your package ran on the train herself, grabbed it for him, and gave it to him.
Oh my God. She handed him the package containing the tools he would use to kill her.
Oh, my God. Do you think that's true? I feel like it was.
You think so? That one I feel like is true because it feels like Grace was just that. kind of a little girl like she was just a helpful trusting oh Yeah.
We can't do one of these for a long time.
No, we got to get out of kids and we got to get out of like these heavy ones for a little while.
We're going to take a little break. Not a break from recording, but like a break from these kind of cases for a little bit.
He told King that he killed her in the fashion he mentioned in the letter, which, whatever.
I don't want to go through it again. But what is weird is he didn't talk about cannibalism.
Interesting. He explained everything, the whole thing.
He's a sack of shit. I'm not going to go over it again.
The thing that was like 30% of that letter was cannibalism.
He didn't bring it up. And King didn't ask about it.
No one asked about it, which is weird to me.
Like, why didn't anyone be like, oh, about that whole thing you said?
Can we talk about that? Yeah. That didn't come until like way later.
It's like, why didn't anyone ask him that?
I'd be like... you need to explain this.
Yeah, you would think so. He did, however, and this is like pretty intense.
He did, however, tell them that he had dismembered her and the first thing he did was decapitate her.
He said he had taken her head and her shoes to an outhouse up the hill from the cottage.
And he thought about dropping the head in the toilet, but thought that was wrong to do to her.
Oh, you thought that's where you drew the line.
That's where you drew the line. Okay. You're such a great guy.
Yeah. So he put it in the corner of the outhouse and covered it with old newspapers and leaves and he put the shoes in the toilet.
He placed her other body parts in the bedroom, in the cottage, and then he left for the night.
He returned the next day to place them outside, and weirdly, he put them all back together, like literally reassembled her dismembered body.
What? And he had cut like dismembered her.
Yeah. Like completely. He said he had come back a few more times with his son, but not to see the body.
It was for different reasons because he had hidden her in the...
Obviously, he was thinking about it the whole time he was there.
He liked knowing that she was back there.
And probably liked knowing like, oh, I'm here with my son.
Like how fucked up is that? Like this is so fucked up.
And when they asked him, why did you do this?
What was the reason for doing this? Hugh answered, you know, I never could account for it.
Are you kidding me? And they asked him several times, why the fuck did you do this?
There's no reason for you to do this. Why?
Not that you would give a valid reason, but like we need something.
Can you give us anything? And he said, quote, it occurred to me.
That's all I have to say. It occurred to me that I should literally hunt down a 10 year old girl.
10 year old girl. In her own house. Assault her.
God only knows how. literally decapitate her, cut her into little pieces and discard her.
Yeah. Like trash. It just occurred to me.
That just occurred to you. Yeah. Cool. You should just accept that.
It just occurred to me. Why do you need more information?
I don't understand. Yeah. King. Detective King was quoted as saying, quote, this is one of the most shocking crimes ever committed.
One of the most shocking in the annals of the New York Police Department.
Yeah, still to this day. Would say so. He was also thoroughly questioning about a ton of missing kids cases and murdered kids cases that were unsolved because they were immediately like, well, you're a fucking monster.
Right. So, He denied all of them, these included but were not limited to Billy Gaffney, Francis McDonald, and the Lindbergh baby.
Oh, but I remember that. And yeah, like I forgot.
And then I just remembered. Which I was like, wow, I didn't even think of that at the same time period or anything.
And he said, quote, I have nothing to do with those other murders.
I am admitting to one murder. Why shouldn't I have admitted to more if I had done them?
You couldn't do any more to me. Oh my god.
Oh, boo, fucking boo. Cry me a river, Albert.
I'm like, oh, I'm sorry. He's like, I'm admitting to one child's murder, okay?
Like, get off my back. He's the worst. The police also found out, according to the Times Union that he had been arrested and in their custody no less than three times in the 12 weeks after. abducting and killing Grace.
Wow. So they had him in their custody three different times and they had no idea.
Do you know for what? It was things like larceny or like, excuse me, petty theft, sending obscene letters.
And I think that was mainly it. Gotcha.
Yeah. His MO. His whole pastime. Oh, sorry.
They took him to the cottage that day because they were like, now you're going to show us where she is, fucker.
Yeah. And he was asked to show them every single place where all of the horrific nightmares had occurred to poor Grace six years before.
He showed them everything. He even showed them where he stood in the bedroom naked waiting for her.
He showed them the outhouse and he like made motions to show them exactly how he did things.
I can imagine just standing witness to that.
Yeah. He showed them the wild flower patch where she picked a bouquet.
Oh my god. He told them how she dropped the bouquet when she went to run from him when he grabbed her.
Then he took them outside and pointed up at a spot up a hill behind the house where a stone wall was lining the perimeter.
And he said, that's where she is. And they began digging where he showed them.
And he remembered burying her. And it was Sergeant Thomas J. Hamill who first struck something solid and pulled it from the earth.
And he held in his hands a child's skull without a mandible.
A lower jaw. They kept digging for more, and soon more and more bones were exhumed, all disarticulated.
They did find the mandible, it just had... come off the skull.
They were all very small and very delicate like a child.
Yeah. A couple of them had shown signs of being like there was clear cut marks. into the bone like in the spine and stuff there was cut marks where clearly he had dismembered yeah The Westchester County M.E.
Dr. Amos O. Squire was called to the scene today. to take a look at the skeleton and just like to confirm that this is a child's He concluded at the scene that it was a child and a prepubescent child at that.
And she was brought back to the morgue in a cardboard box.
Ugh. investigators took Fish back to the station and they began another interrogation because they're like, whoa, holy shit.
He admitted the same confession, repeated the whole thing again.
Apparently he talked about how much work it was to cut through the spine because his cleaver was dulled. oh a real am i right moment you know oh my god like and that's how he was telling them like you know Like when your cleaver's dull?
Yeah, like relatable content. Exactly. It's like, shut the fuck up, Albert.
And he said he did it again because of bloodthirst.
And then he said, I immediately regretted it.
Which I don't believe. I also don't care.
It's already done. It's done. And you immediately regretted it?
After you went through all the trouble of like hacking her to pieces.
That's not immediately. Right. Nowhere in there did you regret it?
No, I don't believe that for a second. He said within a half an hour, he would have given his own life to restore hers.
Oh, boo, fucking boo. No, you wouldn't. So much more offensive to me.
So much more offensive to me. Like for that poor family to hear that.
Exactly. fuck i hate that because people say all the time like if i could give my own life well guess what you can't it's nothing is going to bring her back because you took her senselessly That's the thing, it's like you took their life.
You could have not taken it. Yeah. That's the only remedy here.
At any point during. You took. I hate that.
He took like a 40 minute train ride with this little girl.
Talking. to her go stop to any know her you watched her pick wildflowers wildflowers She trustingly took your hand.
He held her hand. I can't. At any... So for him to sit there and pretend and, like...
He goes through this religious shit because he's like a religious maniac.
Like he takes it to a dark place. But he tries to use it to excuse his shit and to claim insanity and all that.
And it's like, no. No. At no point does religious mania excuse you from sitting on a train... talking to this ten year old girl who's so excited to go to a birthday party and hang out with other Excited to see other kids, excited to go to the country.
You take her hand and walk her up this lane to this path.
Watch her pick wildflowers. fuck you using like god told me to do get fucked dude like no you don't get a pass You don't get a pass.
That didn't happen. Get out of here you piece of shit.
Like he's so horrible. It's also just like, I don't know if we've even said it, but like the fact that this went down at like a little cottage. with a wildflower patch and daisy, like just so fun. fucking bleep oh yeah and at one point when he walked up with her he passed a neighbor who was out, felt like an elderly neighbor who was out fixing her fence.
Oh my God. And tipped his hat to her. Of course he loves to tip his dumb ass hat.
Holding this little girl's hand. And she had no idea.
Just like the most serene place you could probably go.
And this poor lady isn't thinking anything of it.
Who would ever think this seemingly... Kind old gentleman is just walking hand in hand with this happy little girl.
Who would ever think that something monstrous was about to happen?
No, of course not. Of course now we do, but it's like...
Even now, like that wouldn't be your first idea.
No, I mean, now it might be, but... And after these episodes, it will be.
I'm going to be like the village people and be mad at all the grandpas.
Well, and then he said, all the grandpas, he said that assaulting her or raping her had never entered his head. in Deranged, the book that I'll link again, because again, it's so... crazy.
They talk about how strange it was that it seems that police never pushed those questions about cannibalism.
It is weird. And they never even brought it up.
And he never brought it up either. But it was, again, in the letter...
And he said bloodthirst. He kept saying bloodthirst.
No one thought to be like, clarify that for me.
What does that mean? Right. Bloodthirst as in you want to kill someone or bloodthirst as in you want to kill someone and then drink their blood?
Yeah. at least clarify it. Do you think that at that point they were like, we have him and they this family has already gone through so much and they already think that that's what, the case was well and i wonder if they if it's partially that and then partially they were worried that people would automatically take that as insane.
Uh-huh. and maybe not like it is like you're just evil yeah and like because when had when had anybody heard yeah i'm sure it was It wasn't a huge, you know, so I wonder if that was partially them being worried it was going to allow him to claim that insanity thing. a little easier.
Like a lesser sentence or even a hospital term instead of a present term.
Exactly. Because they do eventually, his lawyer does say, like, how can you ever say that somebody that would cook and eat a child is sane?
And it's like, well, no one's saying it's like a normal thing to do.
And no one's saying that like. Right. But it's clinically insane and criminally insane are two very different. different things and that's when things get blurry and get hairy and this is definitely a case of that.
But that evening, reporters actually showed up at the Bud home and broke the news to them that the man who stole Grace had been caught.
Get out of there. And it was literally midnight when they knocked on their door.
Leave them alone. So they were woken out of sleep too.
Like they haven't gone through enough. They need to find this out at midnight.
And they were just stunned into like complete numbness.
Yeah. Especially Delia Budd. She was just at that point, just drained of everything.
It's been 10 years. baby would have been 16 years old yeah she's like this is just i had to move forward yeah And at 1 a.m., Detective King came and drove them to the station to identify him, which must have been truly surreal.
Um, So Delia stayed home because like she had been through enough and she was also like not super reliable when it came to yeah identifying so they were like let's like let her stay yeah and in edward so her brother edward came And her father, Albert, they came.
So... And they walk, and Albert Fish is just sitting at a desk in the interrogation room.
And Edward, the brother, walks in first and he takes one look at him and screams, It's him, you old bastard, you dirty son of a bitch.
And then he jumps at him. Good. He lunged at him.
Kill him. And the police all had to wrestle him down.
He almost made it to fish. They then brought Mr. Budd in, and he walked right up to Albert Fish, right up to him and he just stared him right in the eyes like silently and he said don't you know me And Fish said, yes.
And he said, you're Mr. Bud. And they stayed that way for a bit, just staring at each other.
And then Mr. Bud just exhausted in every way that one could be exhausted.
And Albert Fish just fucking checked out.
Just sitting there looking at him like, I don't give a shit.
It's so wild that, because we talk about these deranged ass people all the time.
But in that moment, it's like you see two humans sitting there.
You're like human to human. Looking at each other in the eyes.
And he says, you're Mr. Bud. And then Mr. Bud responds with...
And you're the man who came to my home as a guest and took my little girl away.
And then he just broke down sobbing. Of course he did. tried to attack him he just broke down he literally they said put his hands over his face and And just wept in front of the man who had abducted and brutally murdered and dismembered his 10-year-old.
And claimed to eat. his baby girl, his little 10 year old.
He had to be taken away from Fish by Detective King, who literally was like comforting him, like hugging him, and he was just sobbing into him.
How does one human do that to a human? because i think and i think he just had like nothing left at that point no I'm sure he didn't even have like the anger was there, but the exhaustion and the emotion.
Well, it's been 10 years. The anger might not even be there anymore it was probably it was just sorrow exactly it was just sorrow like finally it's like the stages of grief And seeing this guy again and being like, you came into my home.
I had lunch with you. I watched you walk away with her. six years ago.
And here you are sitting in front of me, a totally different man.
And to look at the face that like your daughter's like the last face your daughter saw.
This disgusting, hollow, fucked up ghoul face is the last thing my kids saw before having the life choked out of her at 10 years old.
How do you come to terms with that? How do you do it?
How do you move on? It's truly wild. And so after that whole thing, after he was positively identified now, Because Edward and Mr. Bud had never been that sure.
They were like, this is him. That's Frank Howard. uh they tracked down fish's kids because they were like he has six kids we should and they're all adults so it's like we need to talk to them First, they spoke to Albert Jr., who had actually been living with Albert Fish for like months at a time.
He was the one that was like around him the most.
And when he found out what happened, his response was the old skunk.
I knew something like this would happen sooner or later.
Oh, and they were like, oh, something like this.
And he said he mentioned that they had been living together in recent months, but he said his behavior had always been pretty worrisome, but in recent months or in recent years too.
He said it had really become worrisome and he was beginning to get more and more brazen with his strangeness.
He was like, he wasn't violent. He was just strong.
He was just weird and he was like, he was violent to himself and it was getting weirder and weirder. he would openly whip himself in front of his child, like his adult child, but still.
The nightmares, he said, that Albert Fish was having.
I forgot about that. They were getting crazy.
And I was going to say, we talked about it last episode.
He would wake up screaming. And it was because Grace was not letting him fucking rest.
Apparently, he asked reporters, Albert Jr., he said, what's the name of the girl he murdered?
And he said, they said, Grace Budd. And he literally stopped and they said he gasped and said, my God.
That's the name he used to scream in his sleep.
Oh, that is... Bone chilling. He said he would scream grace in his sleep.
And he said, when I first heard it, I know I literally have goosebumps just saying it. even with you he said he would scream grace and he said at first i thought he was screaming it in a religious way Oh, he said he's a very religious man and he like talks about it a lot.
And he said, so I thought he was screaming grace in some way. way he's like I didn't know what that meant for them to hear he's a very religious man yeah I would never stop laughing I'd be like yeah no I would never stop laughing.
Or what he thinks is a very religious man.
But yeah, he would wake up in the middle of the night screaming grace.
Ugh. Good. I'm glad she haunted the shit out of him.
I hope it happened forever. Everywhere that described it is like...
That exact thing that Albert Jr. like gasped and then said, my God.
Like was taken aback. Like was literally like, holy shit.
It was like in How I Met Your Mother, like the glass shattering moment.
The glass shatter moment. It really was.
Now, his daughter, Gertrude. was um he was very his daughters they nobody supported him Like none of his kids were like, no, he didn't do that.
Yeah. They were like shocked. they were also like he was weird and he did weird things to himself but he was a good dad And like, we loved him and he supported us and like comforted us.
He never hit us. He never yelled at us. Like our mom left us and he took care of us.
Yeah, and they all said he acted as a mom and a dad to them.
Like, he took over the... Fucking bonkers.
Yes. And Gertrude, his daughter is specifically... were very upset when this happened like his sons were upset but a lot of them were like this fuck like fuck him like they literally were like just outwardly, but the daughters really were like sobbing throughout the trial and were like so upset.
But they never once said he didn't do it or said, I support him.
Yeah. It was like they accepted it, but they also couldn't.
But they could not reconcile it with who they knew as a father.
Can you imagine? I won't even try to. No.
Now Gertrude, who had a very close relationship with him, said when the Lindbergh baby kidnapping happened, he said she remembered him. that he specifically was reading it and said to her, anybody who harms a child deserves to be terribly punished.
Yeah. And she was like, what the fuck? Like, and she was like, I believed him.
He's never hurt a child. He's so good with the grandkids.
He's like, oh my God. at that point yeah she was like nothing about him would ever like he was so good with kids Now, meanwhile, they were able to gather the rest of Grace's skeleton from the crime scene.
And they also found in the mud the pearls that she had been wearing, the costume pearls, and it was her favorite necklace.
They also found the shoes that he had thrown in the old outhouse.
They found staining in the upstairs bedroom on the wood. and on the walls, which they scraped for testing and it was later determined to match Grace's blood type.
The media went insane as soon as this- It was like everywhere.
And of course he got all the nicknames. the ogre of murder lodge the vampire man because he talked about bloodthirst yeah um the fiend the The modern blue beard, the aged thrill killer, and the werewolf of Wisteria.
Wow. Which are all way too cool names for this fuck.
Why do we do that? I know we've talked about it.
It's like, why do we do that? Because it's... His name's Hamilton, okay?
Okay, Hamilton. His name is Ham and Eggs.
Yeah, Ham and Eggs. Ham and Eggs. Ham and Eggs.
And yeah, I think it's just like it sells papers basically.
It gets people... It's really gross when you, like, break it down.
Yeah, like, giving them, like, cool... It's literally giving them villain names.
Yeah, and it's like, they're not cool. We've said it before. call it like the night stalker stanky breath yeah nasty ass like btk like Fucking Dennis.
I would call him like hollowed grandpa. Just fucking Dennis, man.
And like, don't call him the hollowed grandpa.
I like that. That's a good one. The hollowed grandpa.
Hollowed grandpa. But yeah, so it was going crazy.
Everybody was reading about this. Of course, there was a lot of like... you know, rumors being spread and all this craziness now.
And they would let things out into the press too quick.
Like the press would jump with things. They found some bones in that cottage under floorboards and immediately the press was like, more bodies like he's a mom yeah they ended up being like animal bones of course but they just had to like collect them and test yeah But he was interrogated again.
And this time he went through, because every time they were finding new stuff and new stuff was coming out and new people were being talked to, they had to keep talking about this story.
So this time he went through the whole story again, but when he got to the part where he agreed that he was initially there to get Edward, He said when Grace walked into the room, everything changed, which he had said before.
Yeah. But he said it now. He said... I thought it was a boy for a moment.
Uh huh. And no one asked anything else about this.
Like no one followed up on this and I'm like, Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
No one was like, you thought this little girl in full Sunday dress?
Was a boy? Was a boy? What? Right. Explain.
And you have said to us you initially came there for Edward.
You wanted a boy. You saw the girl and you were like, this little girl is who I want.
You never once said you thought she was a boy.
No, no, no, no. You're just like, why would you say that? was this whole thing where and I'll talk about it later, but he talks about like the Abraham And Isaac's story from the Bible.
And he's like, well, I had to kill a little boy.
And if an angel came to stop me, then it was divine intervention.
It's like... I see what you're doing now.
You're going to claim this whole story where you're like, oh, I thought she was a boy.
And that's why... You know, God told me to do it so it starts helping him with that stupid fucking insanity defense.
I was going to say, I don't know the Abraham story.
It's like somebody intervened before, like God was like, hey, kill your kid, like your son, and before...
He does it like an angel is going to come and stop.
I don't know the whole thing. I'm going to be honest with you.
No, it's fine. pretty generally that it's something like that.
And I know that he claimed... something about that later that he was just following that.
The Bible. And that's why he killed Grace because he figured an angel would intervene. if it was not right.
I'm leaving. But it's like, to me, this shows me.
Right there. Yeah. He's changing the story now because he knows.
He's a smart guy. I feel like you'd be like a weirdly good detective.
Thank you. You'd be like, no, actually, this is what's going on here.
Because I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, right?
You're like, the background past tells me that.
He's a smart guy. And he's sitting there and he knows, he reveals several times and we'll mention it a few more times.
He reveals several times that he was aware of the legal shit involved in this.
He was aware that it was wrong. He was aware of what he did.
He was aware that he was trying to escape capture.
He was aware of all of it. And he was very cunning with it.
He was very planned. He was very meticulous.
He points out that he could have gotten away with this for a lot longer.
Had something not happened. Thank God he didn't.
None of that to me says insane. None of it.
No. And it's like, no, that doesn't and you're not going to sit here and claim some religious thing now to try to pretend that you're this maniac.
No. Who is using religion as like a crutch here.
Like that doesn't work. No. You did not think she was a boy.
You knew that girl in the white dress, white tights and white dress shoes with a little bonnet on and a little flower in her hair and a little bob haircut, you knew that was the girl.
Right. Get out of here. Like, don't even try.
Oh, I got so angry. That's unreal. But whatever.
So while going through the they had to go through arraignments and they were trying to figure out what he was going to be tried for and When?
Because he abducted Grace in Manhattan. but he killed her in Westchester.
So while he was waiting in jail for that whole thing to be organized, they were trying to figure out, do we... try him for both at once?
Do we try him for, you know, kidnapping in Manhattan?
Do we move him? to Westchester and do the whole murder trial.
What do we do? So while you He's in jail waiting for that to be organized.
Investigators were questioning him about a ton of those other missing kids cases and murdered kids.
They just start talking about the Billy Gaffney case, the Francis O'Donnell case.
But he's still denying, denying, denying at this point.
And he wrote a letter to King while he was in jail because he was only allowed to write letters to his family, like his kids and the detectives.
Investigators on the case. And they would give him like a blunt pencil because they were worried he was going to try to like shove it up his ass or something like that.
He still did anyway. And while he was in jail, he wrote King a letter.
And he outed himself again as knowing the difference between right and wrong like he's outing himself left and right that's like you're not criminally insanity defense doesn't work for him spoiler alert but they tried to later and i'm like honeys You did yourself no favors.
He fucked it up from the beginning. No lawyer was going to be able to talk over his bullshit.
So... He said, quote, you know as well as I do that if I had not written to Mrs. Budd, I would not be in jail now.
And had I not led you to the spot, no bones would have been ever found and I could have only been tried for kidnapping.
So this asshole is sitting there going, you know as well as I do that if I didn't do any of this shit, I could have still gotten away from it.
And even if I had been caught, I led you to those bones, you never would have have found those bones without me and I would have just gone for kidnapping.
I would have got out and I would have done it again.
So fuck off. And then he's going to sit there later and be like, I'm insane.
What? No, you're not. You're a cunning motherfucker.
Exactly. And you're just further proving it.
You're proving it left and right. write because you can't stop writing like it's like in hamilton He's nonstop.
Why are you right? Like you're running out of time.
Like what is your, what is your name? Like what?
It just fits. It fits. No, it doesn't. If the shoe fits.
I don't want to... I don't want to put him in the same vein, but like, I'm just saying.
He needs to put down the fucking pencil or actually keep writing because you're fucking yourself over.
But it's like, dude, you like stop. Right.
Now it was soon discovered, and this was wild, that he randomly, all of a sudden they're digging into his like background.
They're seeing that he randomly and pretty secretly married three widowed women in one year.
What? Between 1930 and 1931, he didn't even divorce these women.
He would just marry them in sequence and leave them within weeks.
Would he just do it like under different names?
Yeah. And he was also still married to his original wife, Anna, who had left him.
Why was he married to these women? He was literally married to four women when he was arrested.
At the same time. Four women. Why? Just kept, he kept finding them and he would have, because he was trying to use them, one, for stepchildren and two, to see if he could go like... you know, money and, you know, just first step children to like abuse.
I stepchildren to either abuse or use as bait to abuse.
He would use these women. He would see if they were like into some like dark shit, some like dark shit a little bit.
And then once they were like, yeah, sure.
Like, I'm into like, you know, a little bit of that.
A light something or other. Once he would get them in there, he would try to get them into more and more.
And then he figured he could use them to pick up kids.
Kids will like trust. A woman, usually.
Oh, and like if he had kids with him. If he had kids with him, it would be easy. didn't work out for him at all because these women were like he was um so wild um so But he was really weird as fuck to his stepkids as well.
I bet. And he was never blatantly incestuous with his biological children.
Like I said, he never assaulted them in any way.
He never... did anything weird or incestuous with them or talked to them incestuously.
He treated them as children, his biological kids.
Okay. But those not related to him was a different story.
So one of these stepchildren was a teenage stepdaughter named Mary Nichols, and he wrote her a letter from prison.
I'm going to read that letter. Why was he allowed to write her letter?
Because she's technically one of his kids.
Oh, fuck. Okay. Yeah. He never divorced her mother.
Okay. Now, this is weird. No, thank you.
It's like rambling. It's weird, but I just want to read it because I want you to see that although he's talking to his own kids, like... very fatherly and very normally this is how he treats kids outside of it and she was a teenager at this point so she's a child i'm scared Dearest, sweetest Mary, daddy's stepkitty.
I got your dear loving sweet letter. I would have answered you long before this, but between x-rays, doctors, and my lawyer, I've been busy.
Then you know I am 65 and my eyes are not so good as they were when you last saw me.
So my sweet little big girlie will be 18 on the 28th.
I wish I could be there. You know what you would get from your daddy?
I would wait until you were in bed, then give you 18 good hard smacks on your bare behind.
Now, dear Mary, I will get a check from the U.S. government in a few days.
As soon as it comes, I will send you $20.
I'm not able to get you a watch, but you can get one that you like.
I hope dear mama, who I loved and still love, and all of you are well.
And then he goes into this whole thing, which I'm not going to read, it's just weird, where he talks about like...
She should go to the YMCA because they have big swimming pools.
And if boys go there, they get naked to swim and you can look at boys.
And he tells her this whole thing. I'm literally so done with this case.
I'm leaving. It's very weird. I'm vacating the premises.
So he goes through all that. And then he says, be careful, all of you, my sweet kitties.
Don't go outdoors in the snow unless you have on rubber boots.
Now listen, my little miss. Don't you keep me waiting so long for another of your sweet, dear letters.
If you do someday, I shall come out there again and give you another sound spanking.
You know where. I'm vomiting everywhere profusely.
So he is... What the? I need to go take a shower.
And he oscillates between heinous... Like just blatant assaults and then being like, don't go outside in that snow without your rubber boots on.
And it's like, what the fuck? are you? It's so...
That's his stepchild. Does it seem to you like they were like involved in some kind of strange relationship together?
She testifies on the stand later and says, yeah, and I'll get into it.
Trust me in part four. No, thanks. She says he never. physically touched me in any inappropriate ways, He would speak weirdly sometimes, but she said she never felt...
Like, that he would violently hurt her in any way.
And she said they were not in like any kind of weird relationship.
She was like, I didn't even see him that often.
Like I saw him every once in a while. Like it wasn't even like we were.
And she was like, and he really was my stepfather, quote unquote, for only like a few weeks.
Wow. What? And she was like, and then he left my mom.
What did she say about receiving this letter?
And she had written him a letter, I guess, and been like, because I think he had written her a letter and she wrote him back, but it was like a normal one.
And then it came to this. Like, he would... No.
And she was like, yeah, it was weird. Like, he's a weird... And then she said also that she was like...
I am like, I don't get out often. I'm like a poor kid.
Yeah. And she was like, and I don't see a lot of, she was like, I thought all men were like this.
I thought all city men were like this. This is what I thought.
And it's like, no. And that's even sadder.
Ew, that was horrific and so heinous. And that's... So, like, later when we discuss how nice he was to his kids and his kids try to say...
You know, he never beat them, he never hurt them physically, never even yelled at them.
Did he talk to you like this, though? Remember, that's only because he had some kind of weird code that didn't allow him to commit that specific type of atrocity to his biological child. children right but it was a thin line let me tell you now One of the widows that he had married in 1930 for only two months was a woman named Estelle Wilcox.
Estelle. Estelle! They met through a dating slash marriage agency, which was like big back then.
A marriage agency. This was the thing. It was like early dating sites, basically.
It was like, get married right now. This is where he was looking for his victims.
Things got real weird real fast with them.
He was placing ads in the paper, she said, for young girls to come and work for him.
And she was like, what do you need young girls for?
And that's when she was like, no, I'm out.
And then he would just leave for weeks. And they basically, he left and just never came back one time.
Bye. And she said they just never communicated and like that was it.
And she said he never came back and she said I was glad he was gone.
What? It's just so bizarre. Yeah. And...
At this point, he did admit to the police, finally, once they were really hammering him about the other kids' cases.
He wouldn't admit he did anything, but he did admit that he was working as a painter at a real estate law firm only a few miles away. the day that Billy Gaffney was abducted.
Oh no. But he's like, I didn't do it. But they're getting closer.
Okay. Because they're... As soon as he said that, they were like, all right, we're going to get you.
Like, you definitely did it. Now, once the news and his name and photo began to circulate, people came forward to say...
I got something to say about him. Like, I've met that fucker.
I'm sure. A lot of people he had harmed, attempted to harm, or had just fucking traumatized.
Yeah. The first of these people is a woman named Helen Carlson.
She was a widow who in 1927 rented her upstairs rooms to Albert and two of his sons.
She said he was so sweet, so kind, very attentive to her youngest son, who was seven years old.
He always wanted to take him to the movies, but she kept saying no because the Billy Gaffney disappearance had happened close by. and like near that time and she said no, she was too worried about any of that.
Right. But she said it wasn't because she had any feelings that he was dangerous.
It was literally just that case that scared her.
Okay. And she said she felt like Fish was a grandfather type, and she was like, nothing would have sent me anywhere with him.
Right. Very normal. But then one morning she woke up and there was a letter under her bedroom door.
Just thrown under her bedroom door. It was a letter written and signed by Albert Fish and And she said it was the most vile shit she could have ever imagined on paper.
I'm sure. I mean, yeah, like anything that I I've never heard anything as vile.
No, and he loves to write vile shit down.
That's for sure. She destroyed the letter and she was like, I don't know what this is, and I'm going to pretend it didn't happen.
Yeah. But then he wrote two more. And she finally was like, listen, you sick little shit.
And she told him up. She goes, I want you and your son's gone.
Like, this is weird. You got to get out.
And she said he got super angry, like super violent.
And she said he shook his fist at me and shouted that he would put a curse on me for life what but then they left so she was like cool bye like curse whatever I'll deal with it.
I just don't want you. And so she went up to clean the room for the next boarders. and she found the paddle with nails in it wrapped in a sheet, and it was covered in blood.
Oh my god. And she said she also found that he had left a pile of his own shit in the middle of the floor.
Ew. Yep. So then an 11-year-old girl named Mary Little came to the station with her mother and said she saw his picture in the paper.
And she said when she was five years old, She was standing with her mother outside of a candy store, and Albert Fish had walked up to her and just taken her hand. and started walking with her because she was like a little bit away from her mom.
Yeah. And he asked her if she was alone, and she said she wrestled her hand away and ran to her mother and grabbed her.
And her mother was with her while she told this story to police, and she said that Mary kept looking at this man.
And when she asked what happened, she was like, what went down?
She goes, Mary kept staring at him. And I asked her, what was the matter?
Then I noticed him. All hunched up with his hands buried in his pockets, he was.
He looked at us and started laughing. It was a horrible cackling sound.
Ooh. So he looked at this mother being like, I almost just walked away with your kid.
What the? Ew. He's so creepy. Yep. And so scary.
And she was 11 telling them this. Oh. Even through all of this, he insisted he did not kill another child.
Only Grace. Doubt it. He was not going to cop to any other crimes, but readily admitted to the Grace Budd story and all of its horror.
He told reporters, quote, they've asked me about a lot of other crimes.
I told Detective King and the others that I don't know anything about him.
I can't tell what I don't know. I can't lie.
My conscience is clear. Is it? And then he went, in cannibalism, the very thought sickens me.
Oh, that's so crazy, though, because you wrote an entire fucking explicit letter about it, you piece of shit.
Dad, it's like... So why did you write like a full-ass novel about it if the very thought sickens you?
Like you wrote... about cannibalism. And why is no one asking him this? like someone hold his fucking feet to the fire and be like, I think you're right.
I think you're right though. I think it was that they didn't want to get too far into it with the insanity but it's like killing me and he also loved to make it seem like he was a sympathetic character because of his childhood And he knew he looked like an old man.
He looked like a little old man. And he played that up.
He had like the watery eyes and he would just sit there like...
I'm just Grandpa. Okay. And he also told the media, like I said before, he told Detective King... you never would have found her if it wasn't for me.
And he also told the media, The police never would have found her if it wasn't for me.
He said I was kind enough to lead them to it.
He literally said like, basically like, let's not forget.
Like, let us not forget who did the right thing here.
Yeah. Basically. And it's like, no, honey, you don't get pats on the back because you led police to the body of a 10 year old that you butchered.
You don't get the snaps for that. And the fact that you thought you were going to...
He's a... I genuinely can't. So as he's trying to get sympathy from the press...
To be honest, the press was describing him at some points as this gentlemanly old man. or this frail old man.
He was definitely giving that off and it was working.
But as this is happening, another guy comes forward to the police with a horrific tale.
It's Benjamin Eisman, and he came to the police and said in July 1924, he was 16 years old.
He was sitting on a bench in a park and he was approached by Albert Fish.
Yeah. He said Fish offered him a job painting in Staten Island.
He was like, we need workers. over in Staten Island on a job.
And he was like, cool. He said he had just gotten here from overseas and he was like, I needed a job.
And I was like, wow, this is great. And he said, this guy was so nice, so kind. he looks like this like kind old man and they took he's like so i agreed and he's like cool like let's get on the ferry you can come over and meet the guys so he's like cool He gets on the ferry to Staten Island with him, and then Fish took him to a shack that was run down.
And he was like, okay. And he's like, just wait, wait here.
I just have to go get my tools and then we'll go meet up with everybody.
No. So suddenly Benjamin says, and I'm like, was this an angel?
Benjamin says out of nowhere, he's standing next to this abandoned shack.
Doesn't know where he is. And he goes, an older black fellow came out of nowhere and said to him, listen, son, you better get out of here.
A lot of kids have gone in there and never come out.
Bro, who was that man? Whose man's is this?
Whose man's is that? That's an angel. That is a fucking angel.
That's a straight up angel. And he said he he was like, you know what?
I said, thank you, sir. And I ran the fuck out of there.
He was like, I wasn't questioning. I wasn't going to ask anything.
I got out of there. He goes, I got home.
He had to like... bum money for the ferry fare and everything like he had to like make his way back home he got home told his parents they called the police The police actually wanted him to act as a decoy the next day and sit on that same bench.
And they said they were going to give him money to do it.
And he was in desperate need of money, but he wouldn't.
Because he said he was so upset and traumatized by the whole thing.
He was like, I can't do it. I don't want to see him again.
I'm sorry, how old was he? 16. Wow. Now, one thing... Can you imagine knowing what he knew then? knowing now as like a 20 something, like a 26 year old man or 24 year old.
I would have died that day. A brutal death.
That man saying to him, a lot of kids go in there and then never come out.
That also tells me, like, who the fuck else is connected to him.
And what other kids... And it's like, oh, that's the thing.
Like who, what other cases are connected here?
Now, one thing almost every single person who saw him before could point to was that he walked like he had something in his pants. basically like he walked like really like wonky we know why and he also sat very slowly and deliberately like something was painful And this wasn't lost on authorities either who had been monitoring it themselves but weren't really sure how they could... like approach this problem.
Yeah. And it was definitely a defining feature though, because his penchant for harming himself was eventually going to be part of his undoing because it connected a lot of the stories.
Right. A lot of people would say he walked with this weird gait.
He had this weird, you know, he would sit very gingerly.
And that's not everybody. So there are a lot of stories that he was so whatever about dying and he was so excited about it.
Like that's the thing with the lore with him was that he was like, I don't give a fuck.
Like kill me. Like I loved, pain. He was scared shitless.
He was scared shitless. He asked all the time about whether he could get second degree murder.
He was like, you think I can get second degree?
Can I get the insanity? He didn't want to die.
And although he was prepared to die for what he did, he said he didn't want to.
He kept trying to get used as an experiment.
And he said humanity will profit more by a study of my brain and body than by sending me to the electric chair.
Which I, part of me believes. I was going to say that is weirdly like true.
But at the same time, I'm like, let's stop the lore that he was like...
I don't give a fuck. Like this is going to be, cause he does say later something and I will, it's like a famous quote by him that it's going to be like the most supreme thriller.
Yeah. He did say that. That is something he said.
He's being fucking theatrical. But it was at the last fight. second and he had nothing else to say he wasn't excited about it everybody who said they saw him in those last moments he was shitting his pants yeah So I just don't want him to be this like, this like, you know, tale of like, I don't care.
Like, I love pain. I'm not worried. No, he was.
Shitting his pants. Exactly. Now, while gathering evidence for the trial of the murder, for the murder of Grace Budd.
Jimmy Meehan, you might remember that name.
I was going to say that sounds familiar.
The train conductor. one of the train conductors who saw a boy that looked like Billy Gaffney with an old man the day he went missing on that train.
He saw Albert's face in the paper and he said, that's the guy.
So he called authorities who brought him and Anthony Barone, the other conductor, They brought him into the police station to look at fish.
When Meehan saw him, he said, I am 100% sure that is the man that was with Billy Gaff. on that train dude and anthony barone said he thought it was him but he said i'm not positive Because he said he was wearing different clothes.
He had an overcoat. He's a lot older by this point.
Yeah. He's like, I don't know. I'm not sure.
But Jimmy Meehan was like, that's him. That's him.
100%. And again, Fish denied it. But then he almost admitted it and then simultaneously tried to act like he was just being a decent person.
He said he didn't do it. He said, I didn't do it, but he said, I would have given myself up anyways because I feel my days are about over.
But I would not have given myself up to police unless I learned that an innocent man was about to be convicted for my crime. okay and it's like wait a second so You are not going to admit it unless somebody else is being put up for that.
And why would somebody else be put up for that?
So did you do it or not? Because it's like you're telling me... You're simultaneously saying...
Of course I would. Why wouldn't I give myself up for it?
Of course I would have. I would have said that I did it.
Right. But I wouldn't have done that unless somebody else was going up for it.
And it's like, just told me you would have said it already so like why is no one believing you yeah and you're also saying you wouldn't have said it already unless someone else was going up for that crime And why would you say it if somebody else was going up for that crime unless you felt guilty about somebody else going up for a crime that you committed?
Thank you, Ingenuity. Because if somebody else is going up for that crime, didn't they do it?
Right. Why would that bother you? Unless you did it.
Right. Why would that even be a thing? Because you didn't.
I'm like, what? Survey says. So the indictment for Grace Budd's murder began and ended... very quickly with the westchester grand jury coming back in only two hours to announce that they were indeed indicting albert fish of murder in the first degree with malice aforethought.
Yeah. So before he went to Westchester County Jail, he had another visitor.
Somebody to come in. A man walked in, looked at him, didn't say anything except for, that's him.
This man was Hans Kiel. Okay. It might sound familiar, might not, because we've gone through a lot here.
He was the father of Beatrice Kiel, who Albert fucking Fish had approached 10 years prior and asked her, while she was in her field outside of her house, if she could help him find wild rhubarb.
Oh my god! But her mother had chased him off.
Yup. And her father, Hans Kiel... found him sleeping in their barn that night and almost fucking killed him.
The fact that I forgot about this and you told me days ago, it's, And then Hans saw his paper in the newspaper with all of this and was sure that's the guy.
So Fish said, I've never seen him in my life.
Lies. Then said, well, yeah, I had this job painting in Staten Island at the time, but like, no, that wasn't me.
So he's now being like, well, I guess I won't.
Yeah, I guess. this was the worst because they were going to bring the mom and beatrice keel in to id him too and if they did he was going to be indicted on the murder charges for Francis McDonald.
Because Francis McDonald was found in the woods between the Kiel house and where he was abducted.
Wow. Now, they came, Beatrice and the mom, and Fish literally wouldn't let them see his face.
What? He essentially did a physical comedy bit routine covering his face with a newspaper. he would bend over his knees and hide his face in his knees.
Why didn't they just Well, and they kept so they kept having them leave and then pretending for them to be gone and having them like sneak back in to look at him without him knowing.
At one point, he knelt on the cot that he had in the room and just hid his face in the cot.
Sir, but Beatrice caught his face. one of those times because she snuck around and looked at him.
So why is nobody just holding him fucking down? you think somebody would literally just hold his head up and be like that's his face smack him across his stupid face well beatrice saw him and said that's 100 him Yeah.
100%. She probably was like, I will literally never forget that face until the day I die.
Yeah. That was the man who would have killed me.
Yeah, putting this together with the Benjamin Eisman story, which was confirmed by his mother and police reports at the time.
They were going to attempt to indict Fish for the murder of Frances McDonald.
Boom. Now, as this trial, this trial for Grace Budd became a certainty, Fish decided he needed to have James Dempsey as his lawyer who, was one of the assistant district attorneys of Westchester County at one point.
He was widely regarded as an amazing defense lawyer by other inmates.
He was able to get him as a lawyer through some kind of connection he had.
I think it was through his kids somehow.
And he seems like he was a very decent defense lawyer, but man...
Me and James Dempsey have different thoughts on Albert Fish.
You would have thrown hands? For sure. We might throw hands.
Now, this entire time, Fish has been trying to convince everybody that he is insane, obviously.
He kept talking to reporters and authorities and saying things like, well, I must be insane, I suppose.
Oh, yeah. Just planting that seed right in there.
And you would make sure to at least say that.
And he didn't want to die, I'm telling you.
So he was trying to get out of that mandatory death sentence if he got this first degree murder charge.
Yeah. So at the end of December, they had Dr. Charles Lambert from Scarsdale, New York, and Dr. James Vavasour from Amityville, Long Island come in.
They were two alienists, quote unquote. They were going to observe his mental state.
After observations and tests and interviews, all that stuff, they both came to the same conclusion that he was legally sane.
They said he was weird as fuck, but sane.
In fact, another alienist later said that his case was one of quote, unparalleled perversity.
Perversity. Perversity. Now, another doctor, Dr. Frederick Wertham, was brought in.
He had evaluated Fish before all of this and had a trust thing with him, like, Fish trusted him and would tell him things that he wouldn't tell other people.
Right. So they brought him in and he was the only one that Fish mentioned the cannibalism. him to finally.
He explained how he had He had decapitated Grace Budd and he had put a paint pan under her neck to catch the blood as he did it.
He said he had tried to drink some of that blood once he had decapitated her, but he had gagged on it.
He said, however, that he had cut pieces of meat from the body and wrapped them in paper, and he had ridden the train ride home. holding those wrapped pieces of paper on his lap and no one knew.
Unreal. He also said the entire thing sexually aroused him.
And he talked about cooking and eating it and how much he liked it.
He told him all of this. Okay. But with King and the authorities, he did not say he ate any of his victims.
And he said he had thrown that blood in the paint bucket out the window.
He never said he drank it. So he's just saying this to these people because he knows who they are.
Yeah. One thing that was heavily concentrated on was the amount of pain that Fish liked to inflict on himself.
Never mind everybody else. It was a totally different thing that he wanted to inflict pain and suffering on children.
But he told a psychologist while awaiting trial, I always had a desire to inflict pain on others and to have others inflict pain on me.
And he told Dr. Wortham, I always seem to enjoy everything that hurt.
The desire to inflict pain, that is all that is utmost.
And at one point he got, um, in prison he got a, uh, I think it was a chicken bone out of his meal and he kept it.
Yeah. And then he sharpened it on the floor of his cell.
Ew. And he sharpened it to a fine point and started ripping the skin on his chest until it was like wrestled away from him.
What the fuck? And another time he managed to get... I don't know if it was the same bone or a different bone from... meal, but he was able to jam it into his pelvis and groin and they caught him.
Oh. And according to the Kingston Daily Freeman paper, it reported that the warden said he did this He thought he did this in an attempt to cut out some of the needles that he had shoved inside of his body.
Because they were giving him trouble walking and sitting, which we're going to get to the needles in a minute.
Later, he also had his kids sneak rubbing alcohol into the cell.
He must have told them it was for something else.
I was like, no. And he stashed a rag and one day asked... So he would like...
At this point, especially like in time, inmates were like smoking cigarettes and the guards would like light their cigarette for them and shit.
And he asked the guards for a match to light a cigarette.
And one of the guards offhandedly just gave him the match to light a cigarette.
And luckily they caught him, but he had stuffed the rag with alcohol soaked in it.
He was trying to light it on fire in his ass.
Again, I don't understand how he didn't go blaze.
Yep. Don't know. I don't know. Well, they caught him this time.
What is that going to do, though? It just burns your butthole?
I guess so. I'm not real sure the ins and outs of the whole thing, but it doesn't sound great.
The ins and outs. But he told them and a few other people involved in the investigation that because he felt guilt after killing Grace Budd, Because remember, he's highly religious.
He had decided to punish himself. by pushing needles into the area between his anus and testicles.
He left them there. That's why he said, He sat weird and walked weird.
I literally hate it here. So... You know, December 28th rolls around my birthday.
Hey, girl. happy birthday. Very exciting day indeed.
And they brought him to Grasslands Hospital to get some x-rays done because they were like, we might as well see if He's telling the truth.
Yeah. The chief radiologist, Dr. Roy D. Duckworth. was the one to do it.
And I can't imagine what he was thinking when he took a look at this film.
He was thinking... I gotta get out of here.
He was like, why am I doing this? Now, he looked at the film and what he saw was 27, which ended up being 29 altogether at final count. sewing needles, floating around inside of fish's pelvis, all different sizes.
And they'd only gotten in there. He said the only way they could have gotten in there was by being pushed in through the outside, not swallowed. no pushed in through like you're not a push cushion some of them were like uh were like corroded they had been in there for years some of them it's also like how did you not get like tetanus like in perforations and shit I'm like damn what are you doing dude yeah Now, once they had this,
This was another thing that they were going to end up using to try to do that insanity defense because they were like, how is this sane?
Right. And again. I don't know how to answer that.
I really don't. But there's differences here in what they're looking at, like mentally and criminally and legally, and it becomes very blurry.
But this man knew what he was doing. Obviously.
And I think this whole push pin thing is a weird paraphilic thing he has, but it doesn't make him insane.
No. It doesn't make him insane to the point where he didn't know what he was doing was wrong.
Because people... do things like that. And they're sane, quote unquote.
In some sense, they are in the sense that we are looking at here.
Right. He was not out of his mind when he did all these things.
He can recall them perfectly. He knows they were wrong.
He talks about guilt. He writes letters afterwards to fuck with family members and people who cared about Which is just like, so like, I can't get past that.
Yeah. I don't think I will ever get past that.
I never will. And you know what? Thank you.
This is where we're going to leave it. Okay, cool.
At the x-rays of the pelvis. Because when we begin in chapter five, four, come writing a book with you.
In episode four, we're going to talk about the trial and finally get... to the end finally get out of here we will get out of here oh my god get me out of here So this is all just to the trial, which the trial started in March 1935.
And that's where we are going to start. And that's when we end.
Okay. Well, that's where we start. That's where we start next time.
And that's where we will end. Oh my lordy lord lord lord.
Sorry everybody. And again. This is releasing on Sunday, and you are going to be getting part four on Monday.
It's coming right after. Coming right up after you.
But because I think we're at like an hour and a half with this episode.
If I went through what I have after this, this would end up being like a three and a half hour episode or something.
Everybody needs a little reprieve. And if you don't, I do.
So we can blame it on Ashley. Yeah, feel free.
Yeah, and I got to take a break too from talking about it.
I was going to say, you definitely do. It's a long time to talk.
So we'll see you tomorrow. Yay. For the conclusion of this fucking nightmare. never to return to it again of course okay well um yeah we hope we hope you keep listening because you gotta you gotta end it you gotta get out of here yeah and we hope you keep it Weird.
I'm not telling you. I'm not telling you not to keep it in the spirit.
No, you know. You already know. You know.
Write yourself a post-it if you don't already know.
You already know. Oh, wow. She's Iggy Azalea.
Thank you. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
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