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I have been listening to the Martha's Vineyard Beach and Book Club, which actually Elena recommended to me.
She did not listen to it, but she said, girl, this title sounds so you.
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We'll see you next time. available on qualifying orders retail sales only some exclusions apply see store for details Hey weirdos, I'm Alayna.
I am Ash. And this right here is Morbid.
This is morbid pre-hurricane. Pre-hurricane morbid.
Guys, we're about to get a gnarly hurricane.
We never get hurricanes up here. It's been 30 something years since we got one.
Yeah, it's been like 30 years pretty much.
Who knows what's about to happen? New England doesn't know what to do here.
We know what to do with lots of snow. know what to do with anything else but and I feel like everybody just took the same like precautions that they do with snow it's like the milk the eggs the Bread, the milk, the eggs, the bread.
That's all we know what to do. We're like, charge up all your stuff and get some eggs and milk and bread.
Get a portable charger. There we go. Elena said to me the other day, I was like, thanks, mom.
She's like, make sure you're stocked up. i was like get your groceries make sure you get them at instacart thank you that's right yay But yeah, we don't know what to do, so it's gonna be weird.
We're gonna get our two episodes out. It's been a little bit of a weird week, so we're going to get our two episodes.
It's just like always a weird week because we are who we are. like we're weird you're weird you get it you get it they're always gonna come out that's that's all we know they're coming We don't know when.
I'm sorry. But we are definitely getting them out because we're going to beat the...
So hopefully we're not going to lose power, but I have a feeling we will.
No, no, no, no, no, no. Don't put it out into the universe.
I mean, it's a hurricane. So I don't know losing power.
So I don't think anybody really likes it.
Some people might think it's fun and spooky.
I just think it's fun and spooky, but I think it's far too quiet.
Yeah, I don't like it at all. It stresses me out.
It's like you can hear the silence. With kids.
Yeah, fuck that. It's not fun to lose power.
Because you're like, I don't know what you did pre-iPad.
What's going on? No, not actually. It's just a lot, but...
So don't worry, your episodes will be out, but...
But let's see what happens. Let's go. Let's get this one going.
Let's just see what happens. I'm stressed.
All right. Well, this one was actually super duper highly requested like a few weeks ago.
For some reason, like 42 people were like, you need to do this case.
Is there like any date that. corresponds with that or no just happened to happen i love when that happens well i think i like everybody knows i love an old hollywood case that's true you do This is not necessarily old Hollywood, but this woman has like a Hollywood vibe.
She's like a socialite. So I think people are like, Ash, you love that.
Do it. This is a perfect kind of thing for you.
It is. We're going to trigger warning this a little bit because this unfortunately does involve possible insects.
Oh. And sexual abuse. So if you are going to be uncomfortable listening to that, which probably all of you are, but if you don't want to listen to that, then I will see you for Elena's episode, I guess.
I am glad I brought my coffee. Yeah, you're welcome.
Because wow. So we're going to be talking today about Barbara.
I think you say it Bakeland. I looked it up and somebody said Bakeland.
Somebody said Bakeland. Bakeland. I think it's Bakeland.
I'm going to go with Bakeland. Barbara Bakeland.
That sounds right. It does to me. It feels right.
It just feels right coming out of my mouth.
But before Barbara became a Bakeland, she was born Barbara Daly on September 28th, 1922. to parents NeNe and Frank Daly.
The Roaring Twenties. The Roaring Twenties.
She came in with a bang. She grew up in Cambridge, Massachusetts. which every source I saw was like, she grew up in Boston.
And I was like, Cambridge is in Boston. Cambridge is Cambridge.
But hello, Barbara. Hi, Barbara. Happy to have you.
Am I? No. I did not look into this case before I said any of this.
We'll see. We'll see. We'll see if I evolve.
You'll find out along the way. Well, Barbara's mother, Nini, unfortunately had her fair share of struggles when it came to mental health.
She actually had a nervous breakdown just a couple years before giving birth to Barbara.
Oh, boy. So she was going through it. And Barbara's father also seemed to struggle with his mental health or I don't.
I don't know if it was that or if his wife's struggles kind of just took a toll on him.
Probably a mixture of both, I'm assuming.
And when Barbara was 10 years old, Frank ended up killing himself.
He went out into the closed garage and he turned on the family car.
So ultimately he died from the fume inhalation.
And people think the reason that he did it that way was so that it could still look like an accident. oh wow so then he was like taking care of barbara and nini and they could get an insurance payout that's really sad it is really sad but luckily they were left with enough money to kind of make ends meet And they actually, NeNe decided to use the money to move to New York City for a while.
And they actually lived in the Delmonico Hotel.
Oh, wow. Which is just like fancy fancy.
That is fancy. Yeah. It must have been a good insurance payout.
There you go. Now, growing up, Barbara was considered one of New York's 10 most beautiful girls, which really helped her work her way to a modeling career.
That'll do it. I also want to know who decides.
I was going to say, did somebody just come to the door and be like, we've chosen you?
Hey, you. You're beautiful. Yeah. You're real pretty.
Only nine others like you. Wow. It's like, how does that happen?
Is it a contest? Yeah, I got it. Is it like a pageant of some sort?
I didn't see anything about a pageant. They were just like, she's one of the 10 most beautiful girls.
They literally just picked her off the street.
It's like, yeah, I don't know. It just happens, you know?
Hey, we saw you coming out of the grocery store.
You're real pretty. I'd say you're prettier than... you know, 90% of women in this place.
Well, it all Also, it makes sense for Barbara because she was born on the Libra-Virgo cusp, which is known as the cusp of beauty.
Oh, look at that. I didn't know that there was like, like I knew there were cusps obviously in astrology, but I didn't know they were like cusp of beauty.
Yeah, I had no idea that was a thing. So then I fell into a hole reading all about different cusps and what they mean.
I was born on the cusp of energy, which makes a lot of sense.
And I believe yours was like prosperity.
So like hats off to you, bitch. Hey, look at that.
But that's not what this is about. It's not about our cusps.
It's not about our cusps. It's about Barbara's cusp of beauty.
That's weird though. That makes sense. Yeah, it makes sense.
Like they line up. She's beauté. And it's funny because she went on to model for Vogue and Harper's Bazaar.
Wow, get it. So that cusp of beauty just really nailing it for her.
Yeah. And then because she was modeling and one of the most prettiest girls there, She started getting invites to like super exclusive parties where she'd hang out with like New York's top socialites at the time.
Oh, she's just fancy. She was super fancy.
Like she just made her way on up there. Now, while she was at one of those parties.
She's like Tinsley Mortimer. Shut the fuck up.
It's so funny because a Mortimer actually takes place in this.
Oh, really? A Mortimer takes place. A Mortimer makes an appearance.
That's what I meant to say. Thank you. They take place in here.
They take place here. I've had one glass of coffee and I'm usually on like three. by this point in the day and it was a mug not even a glass so she's really struggling i'm really just not okay It was your coffee.
I'm going to blame you. But yeah, she was hanging with those socialites.
She was Tinsley-ing it up. While she was at one of those parties, she was introduced to Dana Andrews.
I don't know if you've heard of him. No, I hadn't either.
But apparently in the 40s, he was a pretty big time deal.
He was an actor. He had starring roles in Laura, The Best Days of Our Lives, and State Fair.
Oh, OK. I see you over there looking it up.
You're not going to recognize a single one of his movies because I just want to see him. handsome dude okay handsome guy i thought you said he had some dude he had some dude handsome dude Yeah.
Oh, okay. Yeah. Hey. Oh, okay. Yeah. Look her up.
She was beautiful. I'm not going to deny that.
There's a photo of him holding a cigarette, just looking at the camera.
Remember in the 40s when they were like, these won't kill you.
They just look cool. These are just sexy.
These will make your sex appeal at a thousand.
Exactly. Well, Dana thought that Barbara's star potential was at a thousand and he invited her out to Hollywood with him. thinking that she could do a screen test and he thought she had, like I said, star potential.
She was going to make it big. Because here she is holding a cigarette just like him.
Looking sexy. That's what makes star potential.
That's all you needed in the 40s was a cigarette and like curled hair.
I was literally going to say, and good hair.
Good coif. That's all you needed. Yeah, a good roller set and a cig.
Yeah. You're... On to Hollywood you go, biatch.
You're going to miss it. Let's get it. Yeah, but anyways, the screen test did not work out for our girl Barbz, unfortunately.
But, you know, she was out in California doing the damn thing.
And she met this girl called Cornelia Bakeland, who was also known as Dickie Bakeland, which I thought is just like adorable.
It's cute nickname. Because Cornelia is such a pretty name.
Yeah, it is. But she was the sister of this guy called Brooks Bakeland. and cornelia thought barbara would really hit it off with her brother so she was like let me introduce you guys she was like there's so much alliteration here it needs to happen brooks and babs let's get it brooks babs bakeland yeah you should have a baby uh but brooks was actually training to be a pilot with the royal canadian air force oh okay just just that yeah very casual just living and when they met sparks flew it was a taylor swift song I love it.
Barbara was beautiful. Brooks was handsome and like ridiculously wealthy.
And that's really all you need to build a good relationship, obviously.
There you go. That's it. looks and money yep you know and brooks came from family money um His grandfather was Leo Baekeland who essentially just invented plastic.
Oh, that little thing. Like plastic was already a thing, but it wasn't great.
Have you heard of it? Plastic? I don't know.
You guys use it? Sometimes. Yeah. Yeah.
I've seen it in the store. Google it. You'll know.
You might know. You might be like, oh, I've used that once.
Yeah. Or, you know, you might be a plastic sitting at the Mean Girls table.
I mean Google it on the thing that is made out of plastic.
Whoa, weird meta. I was literally just going to say that's so meta.
Stop saying my words. Sorry. Uh, But yeah, so he invented bakelite plastic, which is also known as Are You Ready? polyoxybenzyl methylengine choline hydride.
Killed it. Killed it. I don't think I did.
Lost in the middle there. But basically, it was the first plastic made from synthetic materials. it was called the material of a thousand uses.
It was just like the world's first sustainable plastic.
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The sale ends 831. Don't miss it. But because of his grandfather's invention, Brooks had what he called fuck you money.
Don't we all want that? Yes. That's the American dream.
I'm just over here counting my fuck you money.
Fuck you. Fuck you. Can you imagine? That's the American dream. uh yeah fuck you money he was like i have money so i don't need to like listen to what anybody tells me what to do i don't need to please anybody this is my money and i I can say fuck you with it.
Fuck you money. I love it. I'm here for it.
I'm in here for it. But anyways, less on plastic and more on relationships.
So even though they were both in love with each other, everything kind of started off with a lie.
Because... Brooks later claimed that the reason he married Barbara so quickly was because she told him that she was pregnant.
Spoiler alert, she was not. So he and Barbara got married in California.
But then they went back to New York City to celebrate or to celebrate, to settle.
To celebrate. Maybe not celebrate because, you know.
Lies. Because you know, lies. Because she lied.
Because truth and consequences. That's why.
Because lies and not responsible but pretty early on they started having problems probably because everything was based on a lie They were constantly cheating on one another.
Barbara was struggling mentally. and spending a ton of money on psychiatrists and therapy appointments.
But she was never really getting to the bottom of what was truly going on because it was only like the mid 40s at that point.
Oh, that's sad. come a long way with mental health and everything like that and the other thing that wasn't helping was that because of Brooks's status they were just constantly under public scrutiny.
Like everyone had an opinion about them.
Everyone knew what was going on in their life.
They're like top of the elite New York social chains.
That must be so hard when you're struggling.
Yeah, especially with your mental health.
I also just can't imagine even if you weren't struggling with your mental health, I feel like it would cause you to.
Oh yeah, for sure. Because you're just like under the like eyeball of everybody.
Oh, yeah. Whenever strangers have opinions about who you are as a person...
It'll get to your mental health. Yeah, for sure.
It definitely will. that has ever had strangers have an opinion about you.
Yeah, because it's weird when strangers have an opinion about you.
Yeah. They don't know you. No. Yeah. But they had a ton of rich and famous friends.
And it was more like just keeping up with like the Chanel's and Mortimer's of society than keeping up with the Jones.
There was actually one night where they were out to dinner with some friends and this is really fucked up.
This made me really, really mad. Because if this happened to me, I would have thrown a plate across the table.
Ooh. Brooks was at the table with all their friends and obviously Barbara was there.
And he just was like, I would sleep with the next girl who walked in the room no matter what she looked like for a million dollars.
Um, why offer up that information, sir? What, sir?
Maybe you should be single then, sir. I'm like really angry.
Like I would literally throw a plate at him.
I'm not like one for violence, but you know. no but sometimes there's a time and a place you're getting a plate thrown at you like what the I'd at the very least throw my pork chop at him.
Yeah, I don't even like pork chops, so I'd throw them both at him.
Yeah. Like that's really fucked up to say.
Why would you just randomly say that? Like what?
I didn't. And I feel like it's like one of those statements that like the whole table goes silent and they're like, yikes. was that a joke you're very bad at joking what isn't isn't that your wife Want to walk that one back?
I don't know. How do you come back from that one?
Ew, Brooks. But to get back at him, Barbara decided that she was going to just hop in the next car that came by. so when they left really ratcheting it up a notch it really is you know just like one for one okay She hopped in a car with four guys inside and it just like sped off.
So instead of like tit for tat, it's like tit for rat-a-tat-tat-tat-tat.
I mean, it's the 40s. Rat-a-tat-tat, bitch.
And she didn't come home until, like, much later that night.
Oh, my God. What the fuck? It's also like, guys, maybe you shouldn't be together.
Yeah, I feel like that's your sign. Maybe you should just be single if you want to live that New York crazy life.
Now, there were other occasions where they would violently fight about things such as what restaurant to go to. i mean yeah there was i was reading one article it's not okay uh there was one article where he literally had her in like a headlock and she was biting him oh my god because they couldn't decide what restaurant they wanted to go to like she wanted to go to one and he didn't want to go there and that's what it escalated to That's horrific.
It's really sad. And I feel like that goes to show you like the struggles that she was having.
Yeah. How does it get from that like from like such a small argument to like that heightened?
Oh, yeah. There's clearly stuff under the surface here and things that people don't know.
Honestly, it shows you what a fucking asshole. he is yeah can you like help her out instead of putting her in a fucking headlock jeez yeah This whole thing is like, whoa.
And I felt like reading throughout this whole thing, it was like Brooks was constantly being embarrassed by Barbara.
But it's like he wasn't doing anything to help her.
Yeah. Now they had some of the biggest stars around that time coming to their parties too.
So like these were people that you didn't want to be losing your shit in front of.
Yeah, of course. Greta garbo tennessee williams oh sam green no big deal like big ass stars yeah people you might know yeah so everything was just like really diabolical in front of all these like socialites and There's like drugs happening at these parties.
They're drinking tons of alcohol. It's just like not the situation you need to be in when you're struggling.
Yeah, no. It's not just them like, you know, doing the Charleston or something.
No. I mean, maybe at the same time. But that's not it.
That ain't it. That ain't it. There's more.
Yeah, but wait, there's more. There's definitely more.
And here's some more for you. because things weren't really going any better in 1946 when Barbara found out she was pregnant for reals this time.
I was waiting for that. And even after she gave birth to their son, Anthony, they were still cheating on each other and still carrying out like long-term affairs.
Cool. Yeah. So for the next 10 years, Barbara and Brooks would travel all around the world with their little Tony. boasting about what an amazing child he was.
He was a prodigy, they said. He was good at painting and writing.
He was God's gift to the world. And so he learned from a young age that he could literally do nothing wrong and that there were no consequences in life.
That's always good. Yeah. You know, you really want to set that up for your kid.
Yeah. That usually ends well. Yeah. Right.
Barbara and Brooks would show Tony off in front of their friends at parties, but when it came down to actually being there for their son emotionally and actually taking care of him, that was like the nanny's job.
Yeah, of course. Or like the boarding school's job.
That's so sad. I read this article. It was written by a guy called David Leaf, and he said, quote, In an endless round of idle summers, she and Brooks treated their son like a favorite toy to be picked up and put down at whim.
Oh, that's really sad. So sad. Oh, that like hurts my heart.
Yeah, because that's a baby. To just like treat your child like... let me show you off real quick now get away from me and that's what it is like and especially like at that time period and like who they were hanging out with it was like Kids were just like shiny things to show off and not like actual human beings. that you have to actually like nurture right and be there for and love and like teach wrong from right like like kids are not convenient No.
And that's what I think everybody had to learn for a long time.
I don't think anyone has kids to make their life easier.
No, that definitely doesn't happen. And it's like it always makes me angry when people are like, wow, this is like really inconvenient for me.
And it's like, yeah, no shit. That's what it's another human that you literally have to bring from like this little blob. into an actual human.
And you're solely responsible for that. And you are literally responsible for it.
Of course it's not going to fit into your life perfectly.
Of course, it's not going to be an easy job.
You've got to fit your life around it. Taking care of my cats is a difficult job sometimes.
And I'm like, whew. But I chose to have them. exactly gotta take care of them yeah i love them so much they deserve it they do But friends of the family noticed odd behavior that didn't seem to be on Barbara and Brooks's radar coming from Tony.
They saw him picking the legs off of crabs when they were at the beach.
They noticed that he developed a stutter and they wondered if it was like to earn more attention from his parents.
Oh, this hurts my heart. It's really sad.
One friend even remembered that Brooks boasted about Tony playing pulling a fly's wings off like he was doing a science experiment and not just like treating an animal cruelly.
I know it's like a fly, but. But it's still like, especially when you put it along with ripping the legs off of crabs and stuff.
Right. It's like... Exactly, but he didn't seem concerned about like the cruelty aspect of that.
He seemed more concerned like, What a brilliant mind.
That's exactly what it was. Like, oh, my son doing experiments.
Yeah, and it's like, no. It's like, not exactly.
So now we're going to flash forward to 1967.
The family's living in Switzerland. Tony's 21 by this time. and his parents find out that he is gay.
Okay. They are less than pleased. That hurts my heart.
It's really fucked up. Tony had been experimenting with his sexuality for a long time.
While he was at a boys boarding school, that's when he did a lot of experimenting.
And he actually told a psychologist that it started when he was eight years old.
And that's something that happened to him at school.
And that's when he started like exploring his sexuality. oh wow it's like at eight years old and something happened yeah he said because of an experience he had at boarding school at eight years old so it's like you wonder what that means.
You kind of have to read into that a little bit.
Yeah, it sounds ominous. It does. Now Brooke seemed to have known for a while, but Barbara literally could not handle the news.
She almost fell apart. Now at the time, Tony was dating this guy from Australia who he had met in Morocco.
Like what a life. Just, you know, I met this guy.
In Morocco. What a life. Just living. I was just in Morocco.
Yeah, I just met my mans in Morocco. Now this man's was Jake Cooper.
Jake was a really seedy dude, really shitty guy.
He was said to have been bringing Tony down a really bad path.
He introduced him to a ton of drugs. They like did LSD regularly together, which when you're doing that regularly, it's like not awesome yeah like super not very casual not great for your psyche no They also were doing Bella Donna together.
Oh, okay. Charlie Manson. Yeah. That's literally what I thought of too.
First thing I thought of. So one of Barbara's called her and was like, yeah, Tony's involved with this guy and like he's bringing him down a really bad path.
And I also think they're together. So Barbara was devastated that her son was gay, which is so fucked up.
That's so wild. So fucked up. That would even be on your...
And I know it was like a different time socially and all that stuff, but it was never acceptable.
Never acceptable. Still fucked up. And she was so upset that she decided they needed to leave immediately and move back to New York City.
And she wanted to work on curing him of his gayness.
Oh. Curing him of his gayness. Oh. Like it's a fucking disease.
I hate this. It's terrible. Now, some people said that this is when Barbara and Tony's relationship really started to become incestuous.
So I read this article that while they were crossing the border to get back into the United States, Tony didn't have the right passport, so they had to spend a night in jail.
And she said something to him along the lines of like, oh good, like you're cuffed up with mummy, like just where you should be.
Which like, maybe wouldn't be like super duper creepy if everything else hadn't happened.
I was gonna say. But still, it's like...
It's a weird thing to say. It's definitely a weird thing to say.
Like saying mummy when he's like 21. I was going to say he's like 21 and being like cuffed up with mummy.
Yeah. referred to her as mummy for like for ebbs oh man yeah it's a lot So Barbara allegedly, and this is really fucked up.
So if you, again, I gave you a warning in the beginning, but.
Here's another one. So give yourself a sec.
Barbara allegedly told Brooks that she could cure Tony's gayness.
Again, huge yikes. if she just took him to bed with her.
Oh, I don't want to be anywhere near this.
Like... that's your son that's not going to cure anybody of anything that's your son that's only going to make more problems that's For both of you.
Oh, I'm upset. Yeah. Can I make my site softer?
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Okay. So Brooks was horrified and he told the story to his brother-in-law. who then told his wife, and then before you knew it, the story was just being passed around the elite circle, and everybody knew that Barbara had said this.
Oh, my God. I love that this started from her own husband just like... telling everybody at that point they were having like he was involved in like a crazy affair and he had already been having that affair for a wicked long time and he I think he was so out of it.
But she would constantly say she was going to kill herself if he left her.
So I think he was feeling stuck. He didn't want to be responsible. responsible for that this is just a very chaotic messy situation exactly So everybody's like talking about this, but that was the last thing that Barbara confided in Brooks as a married couple because he was like-
I can't stick around for this and like you better not do that because that's ridiculously fucked up.
I can't. That's having your like the mother or father of your child say something like that to you.
Right. What do you even do? And just like come out and say it.
I'm nowhere involved in this and I'm like speechless.
I'm like, I don't even know what Just to say it like it's not a big deal.
I think this would fix it. If I just slept with our son.
Yeah. That we made together, that I'm the mother of.
That will solve all the problems. And I know she was struggling mentally, but I'm just like, how does your brain go there?
I know, that's the thing, like, to keep, it's just like, I know there's mental illness here, so it's like, obviously we're not thinking clearly. logically or like at the realness of the situation but it's like hearing that is shocking very shocking Now, just to be clear, Brooks is not the hero of this story.
No. He left Barbara and Tony for a girl named Sylvie Skira. who was actually one of Tony's friends to begin with.
They had met in Europe. Sylvie and Brooks had been having an affair for a long time, and it was actually Barbara who introduced them to each other.
Because she thought that Sylvie was Tony's girlfriend.
Oh man. Now Sylvie herself denies that she and Tony were ever together, She was like, I knew that he was gay.
He knew he was gay. Our relationship was strictly platonic. yeah but tony seemed to remember it differently too later and he had later like said that his father stole his girlfriend Really?
Yes. Wow. This is messy as hell. This is the messiest.
The messiest. It's like a real example of there always being three sides to a story.
Yours, mine and the truth. But here we have.
Sylvie's, Brooks's, Tony's, Barbara's, yours, mine, and the truth.
Yeah, you just keep hearing it. It's like, what?
It's like, excuse me? I'm shook. I keep looking at pictures of all these people you keep mentioning.
I know, right? I'm trying to get the feel for it.
They're all very beautiful. They are. I mean, this is very old Hollywood looking.
Oh, absolutely. It's like the oldest Hollywood looking.
Yeah. Now, Brooks and the Inner Circle were not the only ones to hear about the alleged incestuous relationship between Barbara and Tony.
After Brooks left her, Barbara started taking like a creative writing class and she was allegedly writing a novel about about a mother and son and their incestuous relationship with each other.
And then Sylvie later alleged that the police found tapes in Barbara's house, like cassette tapes. where she was recording, talking about what she was going to be writing, and she was talking about incestuous things.
No, that's never been confirmed if those cassette tapes actually exist, but Sylvie said that. the police gave them to Brooks and said, destroy these because they're going to ruin your family name.
Because remember, this is a huge family name.
Like Leo invented the first sustainable plastic.
Of course. So Barbara's an heiress, you know?
And just this, like, focus on incest is like, can we move away from this, please?
It's very flowers in the attic. It is. It keeps bringing me there.
I keep getting brought there. It's a weird place. place to go yeah it's I'm I was excited to get away from it oh yeah as soon as this episode is over as interesting as it is I'm like okay we're gonna move on Wow, that was a place to hang out for a while.
I think we're going to move on to somewhere haunted after this for me personally.
But we gotta finish this. So one of the friends that Barbara made in her creative writing class remembered that at first she thought that she was writing a fiction novel. about the incest because you would think that.
Yeah, like flowers in the attic. Correct.
But then she went to Barbara and Tony shared apartment one day because Tony just constantly lived with Barbara like for the rest of ever.
Yeah. And there was pictures that barbara had taken of tony and portraits and they were just like everywhere And this woman was just like disturbed by the picture.
She said that they weren't the kind of pictures a typical mother would take of her son.
Okay. Cause I was going to say, I was like, all right, it's her son.
Like she loves her son. Now there is. one picture and it's not like sexually explicit or anything but it's a Brooks or excuse me it's of Tony when he's younger and like a bathtub I saw I just saw that It's a weird picture.
It's not like there's no like blatant nudity or anything like that.
No. But it is definitely a picture that you'd be like.
What? When was that taken? Like, what was the context in which that was taken?
And it's, like, posed. Like, it looks posed. posed, you know what I mean?
It looks like a photo shoot. It literally does.
It looks like a photo shoot that a grown person would take.
Of another grown person. For like, you know.
A magazine. Some magazine, you know, like. like playboy to be honest like yeah no well not even it's it's because it's not it's like i feel like it's like suggestive though But it's got like a high fashion look to it.
It really does. It has like a Vogue look to it.
Like I could see like, you know... I'm trying to say, I'm so bad at actresses.
I'm like... Cara Delevingne. Yeah, I could see, or like Jennifer Lawrence.
I could see her like in this kind of photo shoot.
And I think I think you're right, actually.
I think it's only suggestive knowing what I know.
Yeah. Because I was going to say it doesn't show like a playboy.
Yeah. Yeah. No, that was the wrong thing to say.
It shouts like why fashion what's happening here yeah like that's all i'm but if you didn't know you'd be like oh like fashion And it's definitely not a photo I would display of my child.
No. It's just a little bit weird. Yeah. But over the years, a lot of Barbara and Tony's visitors felt the same as this woman.
They were like, yeah, these pictures were weird. because no matter where they were, because they had various apartments in New York, London and other parts of Europe, because Barbara got a monthly allowance from Brooks since he had left.
But no matter where they were, there were like huge portraits and photos of Tony all over the apartments that Barbara put up.
Yeah. And she was just constantly talking about Tony all the time.
She was very, very focused. Yeah. Which, again, if you're looking at it from the other side, it's like that's your only child.
And your husband left you and now you're kind of both clinging on to each other.
Yeah. You can definitely look at it both ways.
A few sides here. Yeah. But the portraits were often described as creepy.
Yeah. Now, one of Barbara's own friends, Alan Harrington, said that she called him on the phone to tell him that she had slept with Tony to cure him. of being gay.
Another man who made friends with Barbara on a cruise said she also told him the same thing and said she was, quote, Very honest about it.
She said she had done it to break him of his homosexual tendencies.
She talked about it as though it were a therapeutic act.
I'm horrified. Yeah. Especially for all of this.
Like a dude on a cruise you meet? Like what?
You're telling him about this? What? whoa and then there were people that was like yeah like she just and again these are all like alleged accounts but there are people that were like yeah she just like said it at dinner one night Which makes you think there's something so wrong here that she's looking at this as not.
That she doesn't think it's wrong. something that would horrify people right because that's the thing it's like normally like I would think when this happens, people try to hide this when it happens.
I would think you would feel shame. And also it's... it's like there's so many layers to it because it's like you don't find anything wrong with like trying to cure someone of homosexuality, which I know at the time probably wouldn't shock everybody as much.
But then you add that layer of like, it's my son.
Like you have incest into it. It's like, no, you should feel some shame here.
What are you doing just saying this in front of people?
Which makes me very much question what state she was in. here that's the thing I think yeah she was because this just seems she wasn't in a good state she was constantly even after Brooks left she was like threatening to kill herself.
She attempted to multiple times. And then at the same time, I read articles where like we're saying like you would, so she's telling people she's having an incestuous affair and you're like, wouldn't that shock people?
But then it's like she at one point slit her wrists and showed people and was like, oh, guess where I was this morning, like at the hospital.
So it's like, I think she was like disassociated somehow.
Yeah, there was just like no feeling. happening and again this was so long ago that she's not going to the right people there wasn't medical attention available to her like this wasn't understood it wasn't understood exactly yeah So it's a lot.
It's a lot. Now, once Brooks left, Barbara's mental health only declined more and more.
And Tony now was the one taking the brunt of it.
Because like I said, they would argue over like what restaurants to go to and end in like a physical assault.
So like. So now Tony's taking the brunt of it.
Barbara was super hard on him. especially because she was so upset about his sexuality.
And eventually, Tony began to struggle with his own mental health.
And not to mention back when we, back when he was with Jake Cooper, he had eaten like an entire thing of belladonna. which is known to cause hallucinations and ongoing mental problems.
I was going to say, because it's not like it just is like, whoop. it doesn't just go away it's gonna run its course for a long time yeah exactly Like Belladonna.
It doesn't even sound like a real thing.
That's wild. Insane. He was prone to serious and like really scary bouts of anger.
And obviously, if this alleged incest is happening to him, that's also part of it. for sure during some of these and it was always Barbara that was like taking the brunt of his anger because they were so codependent it was like yeah i was gonna this is just such a really, really toxic relationship.
Volatile relationship. Of both sides. Right.
But he would threaten Barbara with knives.
He would choke her there were times where people were like, yeah I literally saw him try to push her into oncoming traffic.
And things escalated really, really seriously one night when Barbara was attacked while she was leaving a dinner party that she'd attended. in London.
Someone came up behind her and tried to grab her but she was able to make a break for it.
Whoever this person was then grabbed her by the hair and allegedly ripped a clump of hair out.
Whoa. And then threw her down on the ground. and then tried to drag her into oncoming traffic.
Yes. She was able to get away again, but the man ran into the house and then... came back with a knife and started heading her way.
Like he ran into the house that she was at a dinner party at.
It was her friend's house. And this is just some random dude?
I don't know it was this guy obviously he knows the layout of this house so he goes and gets a knife and comes back and he's like screaming that any woman who's near her is gonna get it what if they like intervene Yeah.
So then he starts going Barbara's way. But just in the nick of time, a couple of people who lived in the house that like weren't there at the time. intervened and Barbara's friend Sue came onto the scene and somehow whoever this was got scared away. ran back into the house out the back door and into the alleyways and got away.
And Barbara said, that was Tony. What? That was Tony.
That is like Jack the Ripper style. Legit.
Like just like coming out of the... The shadows.
The shadows. and disappearing into the alleys of london like what the right holy the whole thing is just bananas like really chaotic it's truly very chaotic so barbara knew it was tony And when the police arrived, she was like, that was Tony.
And he was arrested for attempted murder.
And that was her son. That's her son. Yeah.
But that's not the first time that he even tried to like hurt her.
Wow. So he ended up being admitted to a private psych...
He ended up being admitted to a private psychiatric hospital called the Priory.
But he didn't spend a long time there at all because Barbara just wouldn't listen to the psychiatrist's warnings.
And she also didn't have the money anymore to keep him like getting the treatment that he needed because Brooks cut her allowance.
Oh, boy. which I'm like a grown woman getting an allowance.
It's just like the craziest thing. That's crazy.
It seems like almost like an alimony kind of thing.
Yeah, probably. But the psychiatrist literally told her that he believed it was Tony's full intention to kill her. full intention to kill her, and she answered him by saying, quote, Whether for him or his father, I don't know.
I'm used to murder. And the psychiatrist was like... This is so sad.
It's so sad. The whole entire thing is so sad.
Like, from every angle, this is really sad.
It is. Thank you for this. The psychiatrist was like, I'm not talking metaphorically.
I know I know what you're saying. I know what you mean, but I'm not... being like hyperbolic here, he's going to try to kill you and he's going to kill you if he doesn't get the help he needs.
And he said to her, I think you're at great risk.
And she said back to him, I don't. What?
Because she just didn't believe in her heart that her son could do something to her.
I mean, who does? Of course not. The town of Agde in France is famous for sun, sand, sea and sex.
But lately, life on the coast has taken a strange turn.
The town's mayor, a respected pillar of the community, has been arrested for corruption.
His wife claims he's been bewitched by a beautiful clairvoyant.
Then there's the mysterious phone calls that local people have been getting.
I am the Archangel Michael. The whole town has been thrown into chaos.
Mr Mayor. As the mayor is unable to carry out his duties I would like to address you all Legal proceedings have been initiated Join me, Anna Richardson, and journalist Leo Schick for The Mystic and the Mayor. as we investigate a story of power, corruption and magic.
Binge all episodes of The Mystic and the Mayor exclusively and ad-free right now on Wondery Plus. start your free trial in apple podcasts spotify or the wondery app Now, a few months later, Tony was out of the hospital and again living with his mother.
And again, Barbara couldn't pay to keep up with his visits, so he's only getting worse and worse. and Brooks refused to help at all.
He said that his son was just inherently evil.
So on the night of November 17th, 1972, according to Tony...
He took a phone call from a friend. Now, this is where it gets even weirder.
So in the past couple of weeks leading up to that night, Tony's behavior had become more and more erratic.
He was drawing strange paintings of people with blood pouring out of their sides.
He was doing paintings of his mom with snakes wrapped around her neck.
Just like clearly in a very disturbed state.
Lots of like symbolic images here. Yes, definitely.
And just like... I just like it's it tells you everything you need to know like clearly something was going on yeah you know He had also attacked her again and left her unconscious on the floor.
He'd been throwing things around the house.
And then finally he seemed to have been entering a calmer state.
Because it seems like this is how it went.
It would blow up and then there would be cool down periods.
Yeah. Now, so he takes this phone call on November 17.
And he said the phone call was his friend who told him that he'd fallen down an elevator shaft and that it had taken a quote, profound effect on him.
So this is the friend telling Tony that Tony was the one who fell down the elevator shaft.
So his friend calls and says, hello, Tony, you fell down an elevator shaft.
Apparently. It had a big effect on you. So I don't know because it got like super confusing.
I don't know if it was the friend who was trying to use a metaphor to tell Tony like you've fallen down an elevator shaft like like you know what I mean yeah like metaphorically exactly and he's like you need more help like let's figure this out like I'm here to help you that makes more sense That's how I took it.
But I don't know if he meant it that way, if Tony actually had fallen down an elevator shaft or not. if this conversation even happened at all, because it might not have even happened.
That's true. Right. So either way, Tony said that he invited that friend over for a drink and then his mom came home.
Now, Barbara had been at her friend's house earlier that day, Missy Handlin.
Missy's son Mishka had cooked dinner for them and said the entire time...
Barbara was just talking about Tony and how much better he was doing.
And just like all the things that he was up to.
And she said, actually, he's going to cook me dinner tonight.
And I think it was one of those things because...
Missy's son was cooking lunch for them and she was like Tony's gonna cook dinner for me like yeah like everything's a-okay see my son's just like yours me too like he's so amazing unfortunately that is not what happened When Barbara got home, Tony told her that he was going to be having a friend over and Barbara was annoyed allegedly about the time that Tony said the friend was coming and because it was earlier than she wanted him to come.
So they started fighting. Okay. Now the fight made its way around the entire apartment.
It was getting more and more heated until it just became explosive.
Tony later said that at one point, Barbara sat down in the middle of the fight and wrote something down on a piece of paper.
And her doing that made him so mad. that he just struck her and ripped up the piece of paper.
And while he was doing that, she ran into the kitchen.
Lots going on here. Not awesome. Now, eventually things would end in the kitchen.
So Tony chased her into the kitchen and then grabbed a knife which he then stabbed into Barbara's heart, severing a major artery along the way, killing her.
Wow. He killed Barbara. Which is exactly what the doctor said would happen.
Exactly what the doctor has said would happen.
She was 50 years old, and earlier that day, she had written a letter to one of her friends saying, Fridays are always suspect, don't you think?
Ooh. Like, what? Also, Brooks later pointed out that the next day when he found out what happened... would have been their 30th wedding anniversary.
Holy shit. So later that night, Missy Handlin got a call. saying like, hey, we heard you were with Barbara today.
When did she leave your house? When did this happen?
They're asking her all these questions. And they're like, what?
And she's like, this time, this time, like, why?
And they go, how well did you know the deceased?
And that's how she found out that her friend had died.
Oh my God, that just gave me chills. Can you imagine that's how you find out you just spent the day with her?
She just left your house probably a couple hours ago.
How well did you know the deceased? Is that not crazy?
Woof. So it's unclear who contacted the police.
There was a housekeeper that like ran out of the house screaming.
So it could have been her. Could have been somebody who saw her screaming.
Yeah. But when they got there, I shit you not, I saw this in every single source that I looked up.
Tony was sitting in the bedroom ordering Chinese food.
Wow. Just had like total just snap from reality.
Total snap. Exactly. Wow. he had the wherewithal to confess to the murder and he said to the police, quote, My mind was slightly wacky and I was very much under my mother's influence.
I felt she was controlling my mind. This is just like, this is all just such a poisonous family.
It's just poison everywhere. So toxic. Now, it was clear to authorities and doctors that even though Tony knew what had happened right then and there... he wasn't doing well mentally.
And over the following days, he didn't seem to realize that like what he had done that he didn't know that she was gone because people would come and visit and he would say how's my mom doing Like, I don't know if he realized that he actually killed her.
Yeah. It seems like it was a total break from reality.
Absolute total break. He also told them that everything started when he was little and fell off a pogo stick, but just left it at that and wouldn't say anything more.
That's strange. He was just like speaking like nonsense, basically just saying like little things like that and then going off into something else.
And then there were also times where he said that it was his grandmother's fault and she was the one who stabbed Barbara.
But that couldn't be true because this happened in London and his grandmother was in New York.
Yeah, that would be hard. It would be very difficult.
So while waiting for his trial and sentencing, Tony was held at Brixton prison in the UK.
It's like a very like high security prison, like a lot of like murderers go there.
Now, when the case went to trial, John Mortimer, he, what did I say earlier? took place took john mortimer took place yeah he took place here he was the one to represent tony in court His goal was to have Tony sent back to America to undergo treatment, but in the end, Tony was found guilty of manslaughter. and he was sentenced to Broadmoor Hospital in the UK instead of jail time.
I had a feeling that was coming. Yeah. And he ended up being diagnosed with schizophrenia.
Okay. Which is just like. That makes a lot of sense.
So heartbreaking and so sad. This whole thing is like. oh it really it's just from start to finish yeah tragic there's just no way to look at this other than tragic Well, and you just... There was no way out of this either.
No. It's like, how was this gonna... Yeah.
Like... How is this going to end any other way?
Yeah. People needed help from the jump. Yeah.
I mean, Barbara needed help. Starting with Barbara.
Starting with Nini, Barbara's mother. Yeah, it's like there was a long line of not... being like mental illness not being taken care of.
Absolutely. And it explodes. literally exploded.
Yeah. But during this time where he was in Broadmoor Hospital, he had Tons of visitors.
He would write letters back and forth with like the elite family friends and his grandmother, Mimi, who he said had done this. which obviously he didn't, I don't even think he knew what he was saying.
Yeah. And one of his letters to Nene is, He wrote, quote, Nevertheless, I feel better now, and I even feel a great weight has been removed from my shoulders.
An odd thing is, she told me that I would kill her this summer several times.
I thought this the most unlikely thing in the world.
The poetic nature with which he describes this is truly unsettling.
So remember, he's a writer. He wanted to be a poet.
He wanted to be a writer. That is some beautiful prose that he just spun about murdering his mother.
Beautiful text. terrifying like wow and then so it's like she said like Fridays are suspect and then an odd thing is she told me that i would kill her this summer several times And then even the thing that she said to the psychiatrist, like they've been murdering me since.
Yeah. He's been murdering me since he was born. you wonder if she was just like several like during some of their spats and stuff she would be like you're gonna be kill me you're gonna be the death of me oh yeah you know what i mean like Like, whew.
But I don't think she meant it literally.
But maybe she did. She might have because he, I mean, he attempted to kill her once. on like one really big time.
And then there were other times he knocked her unconscious.
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. This case, every time I'm like, well, maybe they meant this.
I'm like, but, you know, honestly, nothing is off the table here. here.
Right. Like literally nothing. No. So like I mentioned in the beginning Barbara's mother NeNe had also been through her own struggles with mental health and the loss of her daughter now.
But just like any grandma, grandmother. any grandmother just like any grandmother in the world she had a soft spot when it came to her grandson she thought he could do no wrong That's a tough one.
She thought that he would do much better in the U.S. under her care.
So she wanted to turn his life around. So she reached out to all of their, like, big money friends, the social elite.
There was this man named Hugo Money Coots.
He and his family controlled a really exclusive bank, so they had power in the area.
I was going to say, I know that name. So she was talking to like big money dudes here, people with money that could probably bribe like the hospital to get Tony out.
Yeah, to do anything. It was a huge campaign just to get Tony out and brought back to the US.
But Brooks, insert Brooks back into the picture is what I'm trying to say.
He totally disagreed with NeNe. He thought that Tony was exactly where he needed to be.
Again, he said Tony was evil and should have been convicted of first-degree murder.
Wow. And because he like felt so strongly about this and like it seems like he had like a hatred for Tony.
Yeah. I wonder if some part of him still loved Barbara somehow.
Yeah, I mean, I think all of the emotions in this whole case are all... completely like obscured and just like we can't none of them are pure You know what I mean?
Like there's no, you can't just be like, oh, well, he loved her.
It's just like, you're like, I think part of him, there was like a weird love. an iota you know like you just have to like weed through the nonsense to find it right but yeah i think there was like I mean, and honestly, he wasn't around.
Right. So it's not like he really knew this this kid is a man.
No, not at all. So it's like, he only knows him as a kid.
And it's weird that he had that, he surmised that from his childhood when he really wasn't taking care of him as a child either.
So it's strange. It is really strange. I just wonder where that came from.
But it's weird that he's like, Tony's so evil and like, you know.
And then even just to say the thing like I found out on what would have been our 30th anniversary.
Yeah. When he was remarried and actually had a child.
Yeah, so it's like it wouldn't have been your anniversary.
Because you're divorced. Your anniversary stopped when you stopped being together.
Like, I don't count my anniversaries with my ex-boyfriends.
Nope, can't say I do that either. You don't just keep going and be like, wow, it's been 20 years not together.
It would have been our 20th today if we hadn't broken up.
If we hadn't broken up 18 years ago. Wow.
Would have been our 30th if I hadn't abandoned you in my sick child.
Exactly. Okay. But then you look at it the other way and you're like, did he say something?
What was he supposed to do? in him as a child that was scary.
Yeah. Did he look at him as a child and be like, this kid is scary?
Maybe. Because, I mean... It is his. Yeah.
You know, or did I mean, and also he looked at Barbara and was like, Again, maybe he loved her, but he just couldn't handle the volatileness of it all.
He wouldn't be able to take care of her or get through it with her.
Exactly. Like he should have. But so while everybody was campaigning to get Tony out, Brooks was basically campaigning to keep him in.
He was like, no. And he also said that, so at this point Brooks had another child, a son.
And he said that Tony had made and sent his son like weird macabre gifts.
Oh. And I couldn't find anything to say like what these gifts were.
But Tony like really enjoyed like making things like crafts. and stuff like that while he was at Broadmoor.
And Brooks said that they were so creepy and weird that he threw them out immediately.
Because he was scared they or like messages or something.
Yeah, he was just like freaked out by them.
I don't believe him. But at the end of the day, it was not Brooke's decision.
And all these big money people are rallying against him.
So obviously I... have to imagine there was some kind of bribe involved oh i'm sure he's in there for like murder Oh yeah, somebody lined somebody's pockets.
Absolutely. I mean, we're talking about Hugo here.
Hugo's involved. Hugo is involved. Come on.
So Tony was released from Broadmoor in 1980. and his release was contingent on him being put directly under the care of his grandmother.
87 year old NeNe in New York City. What? thought this was a good idea.
This woman is 87 years old by herself. Her health is ailing.
She's also in a fucking wheelchair chair yeah it's like how is she gonna look after him you know And immediately she showed that she really couldn't look after him because, again, he's in London.
He has to fly back to New York. he has to be with someone because it's contingent his release was contingent upon him being with her yeah but she can't like fly back and forth at this point this point because her health is ailing.
So she enlisted one of her friend's daughters who Tony had never even met.
So just this random girl. Basically, it was her Nene's friend's daughter.
And apparently, they just lived close to Broadmoor.
And the daughter was like, yeah, sure. Like, sure, I'll bring them.
Sounds convenient, I guess. So it was more a plan of convenience than actual safety.
Wow. So what is this girl going to do if he...
If something happens. What if he loses it?
Exactly. Exactly. So Brooks was pissed and in his opinion, this was absolute bullshit and a sign that Tony was not gonna be in good hands.
And he kept saying he was really worried that Tony was going to kill someone else.
So he even tried to have his release reversed, but it didn't work.
His attempts were futile. I feel like this isn't going to be like, and then everything worked out.
The end. No, this is not going to be that.
This whole entire thing is a dumpster fire.
Awesome. Brooke seemed to be the only one who realized how sick Tony actually was. in a weird way, like even though he was so mad at him, he was like, he's evil.
I think he cared. Well, I think he was like, he needs to stay in the hospital.
Like, he needs to be constantly monitored.
That's just like... He's sick. He's sick.
And he's concerned you need help. He's concerned about like public safety.
Yeah. I mean, I get that. So everyone else at this time was like, no, he's fine.
He was happy at the Broadmoor. He changed after a year there.
You know, I think it was just like everyone was like it was Barbara.
Like, unfortunately, it was Barbara. It's like as fucked up as she was, nobody deserves to get murdered by their fucking kid.
Yeah. And it's like, dude, like it, After a year of being in a hospital after you murdered your own mother.
Right. That's not enough time, I feel. It's definitely not enough time.
And it's like, okay, so what happens to the next person that pisses him off?
Yeah. Because he was literally just pissed that his friend couldn't come over on time.
Exactly. And like obviously I don't think that was just.
I was gonna say, obviously, there's a lot bubbling under that surface.
But then we'll see. And was it because of the history?
I mean, yes, it was because of the history.
But in that moment, I think it was just that he was fucking pissed and couldn't get what he wanted.
And I think he just needs help. He was diagnosed as a schizophrenic and he's killed someone now.
So I think he just needs help. Correct. So he's got to stay there.
He should have. So after a few days of living with Nini, Tony had built what some would call like a shrine to his mother.
He built her a shrine, and he would whisper to himself while holding her ashes. and peep i read in like some sources that he would whisper like satanic things but i was like i think you're just being like a little yeah that sounds like bullshit it's like don't be rude Yeah, he probably is just whispering nonsense.
Yeah, exactly, unfortunately. Or things that make sense to him.
Right. So Nini was like, well, shit, but you know, I have to try this because I got him out.
So I'm sorry. I just pictured this like 87 year old being like, well, shit. no I know it's true I think she was just in way over her head and I think yeah I think seeing somebody in a state like that is a lot different than like visiting them when they're in a a controlled environment where they're getting the help that they need.
Exactly. A calm, controlled environment.
And now you're bringing them out into the chaotic world.
And this family is just straight up chaotic.
Because remember, Nene has her struggles with mental health, too.
Oh, yeah. So it hadn't even been a week since his release when Tony and his grandmother got into a heated argument over a simple telephone call.
Oh, no. He said that his grandma was a mysterious woman and wouldn't let him call people.
But I also was like, he wanted to call someone in England. she wouldn't let him.
And also like that shit's expensive, especially back then.
I'm sorry. Long distance calls are expensive.
I think that's really all it was. when I was little it was expensive when I was really like we got in trouble for you like you'd do like fake like prank calls and you'd accidentally call someone in like another country.
And you'd be like, well, fuck. And it showed up on the phone bill and they were like, what the hell is this?
Grounded for a week. Yeah. But Tony was absolutely enraged when she told him that he couldn't use the phone.
So he threw it at her and he ended up hitting her in the head and she fell over.
And then Tony repeated what everybody thought he had been cured of.
He immediately grabbed a knife from the kitchen and started stabbing his own grandmother over and over and over again.
Oh my god. She was still screaming when the police arrived.
And Tony calmly looked at them and said, like, she just won't die.
She's just not dying. Oh, by that point he had stabbed her eight times and broken multiple bones.
And when he was asked what happened, Tony said he threw the phone at her saying, And then when she fell over, he decided it would have been kinder to kill her than to just leave her hurt on the floor or leave her to go to the hospital and... suffer all these broken bones it'd be better just to kill her in his rationale no that doesn't make sense Nene survived the attack, my dudes.
What? She was 87? She was 87 years old. old and later on she just said like she was like I thought that I could help him but I couldn't unfortunately like that's really sad the same thing almost happened to me that happened to my daughter and i didn't realize it that's really sad And this is, again, like a trigger warning because this is just a lot.
Tony later admitted to his psychiatrist that he had been hearing voices leading up to this night. and that he had also thought about sleeping with his grandmother.
Oh yeah, there's a lot of fucked up shit happening here.
A lot of fucked up shit. So much fucked up shit.
Yes. Oh, this is just really fucked up.
The whole entire thing is so dark. yeah it's like you don't even know how to describe it it's just like it is it's just dark it's just dark and it's bleak wow So Tony was obviously again arrested and charged with attempted murder.
Now he's in New York at this point, so he ends up getting a life sentence at Rikers Island.
Yeah. Which I don't even think I need to explain to you.
But if you're not from here, Rikers Island is... literally like the most intense jail or excuse me prison in New York.
Yeah. Like the worst of the worst go there and it's probably the scariest place in this area yeah now Just eight months into his sentence, he requested bail, and his request was put on hold while Rikers waited for his records from Broadmoor.
So he probably wasn't going to get released on bail, obviously.
Probably not. on March 20, 1981, the day that he found out he would have to wait for those records.
He walked back to his cell and was later found that very day with a plastic bag wrapped around his head and he was dead.
Oh, wow. People still question whether or not he killed himself or if he was killed.
Oh, yeah. Nobody knows because the thing that people were pointing out was like he was attached to all this big money.
So he was able to do whatever he really wanted in prison because...
You know how that goes, like, again, bribes and stuff like that.
So he made a lot of enemies along the way.
So it's like he could have been killed or he could have just killed himself because he didn't want to be in that environment anymore.
It's like he killed his own mother and his grandmother.
I don't know if that throws him lower on the hierarchy of prison. yeah to be a target you know like along with like kids I think women tend to be especially like your mother and grandmother yeah it's a and especially like New York and stuff like that.
Yeah. But you could see either way. Yeah.
Or honestly, who knows? He was really suffering with mental illness and schizophrenia.
Maybe he didn't mean to do that yeah maybe he just you know yeah i don't know i mean nobody knows So still, nobody knows.
And I read a book about this. It's called Savage Grace by Natalie Robbins and Stephen M. L.
Aronson, who was connected to Barbara at the time, like ran in the same circle as her.
So there's all the way the book is written is really cool.
It's all these interviews with people who were involved in the circle and like Sylvie's in there.
There's statements from Brooks in there.
There are statements from NeNe in there.
There's transcripts of psychiatrist notes.
Oh, wow. Like interviews with Tony. Oh, that's interesting.
It's a really good read. It's a really... highly criticized book, I think, because it's just a...
It's intense, you know? Yeah. And some people debate that the incest thing didn't happen.
So it's just a hot topic. Yeah. And then they eventually made a movie saving grace or excuse me, Savage Grace.
I was just looking at that. again is very highly criticized um julianne moore stars in it yeah and um what's his name the other guy Why can't I remember his name?
IMDB. I love him as an actor. And I can't think of his name right now.
I'm going to look it up. For some weird reason.
So we're just going to like vamp it up until we figure it out.
So Julianne Moore plays Barbara Baker. And then the son is played by that actor that I like.
Looking for it. He's got red hair. Oh, just popped in my head and then went away.
Eddie. Eddie Redmayne. Yep. Yep. There it is.
And then we have Stephen Dillon and Reed.
A lot of good people in here. There you go.
But Julianne Moore and Eddie Redmayne are like the main characters.
Yeah, the main characters. It's Barbara and Anthony.
But again, it was like really highly criticized.
Really? It's so funny because I don't think I've ever heard of it. heard of it either.
And those are like two big stars. I think it also was like not rated because...
There's a lot of scary things. I want to watch it, but I'm also very scared to watch it.
Do you know when it came out? 2007 2007 yeah yeah because he looked really young yeah It's just, I don't know if I want to watch it because, you know, Flowers in the Attic was a lot to watch in and of itself.
So, like, this might be even... even more to watch yeah i mean i'm just like looking at the screenshots of it and i'm like yeah i don't know i just watched like a little bit of the trailer while i was saying that Especially after like pouring myself into this.
I was like, I think I'm good. Yeah. I don't really need to gross myself in that story anymore.
I think I'm going to move on to something haunted next week.
And I love Juliette more. I do too. She's a great actress.
Yeah, she is great. Yeah. So guys, that is the story of Barbara... bakeland wow and didn't know that that was the uh the road we would be trekking down yeah i think we did take the road less traveled to be honest with you the road you should never travel I feel don't travel that road wow So thank you for that.
Yeah, your face throughout this whole thing.
Some people are always like... I want that to be like a visual thing.
Sometimes like you don't. I feel like at that, this probably would have been like a crazy one.
This would have been a funny one. because I think my face was just like you just kept being like twisted in horror the entire time your eyebrows were furrowed your eyes were widened and you like kept like crouching into yourself.
I kept curling into my own body. I'm like...
It's a lot, but, you know, highly requested.
Wow. Thanks, guys. I did it for the weirdos.
I did it for the weirdos and with that being said let's talk about some weirdos let's do that Hey, Holly McNulty.
Holly McNulty, your last name is the last name of the detective in The Wire who I loved.
McNulty. Yeah. Would you look at that? We then have Jessica Norell.
Jessica Norell, I think you are swell. I think you're swell as well.
Then we have Katie McClelland. Katie McClelland.
You have a great last name. I think it's cool.
I don't have anything that rhymes with it though, but I appreciate you.
Yeah, I like it a lot though. Then we have Raymond Farmer.
Raymond Farmer, you are like a suit of armor.
You make me feel protected and I love you for it.
Wow, that was like really good then next up is melissa meanie who i bet is not a meanie no way you're a nicey a nicey thank you melissa Thank you.
Then we have Audrey Perdell. Audrey Perdell.
I feel like it's like Perdell. It feels like like a prominent. last name it does it feels like it would be like um like a sephora Like it feels like it would be like a really like nice makeup place.
Or just like maybe I think you're thinking of that because like the Prudential Center.
Maybe. Prudential. Yeah, maybe. I don't know.
I don't know. Thank you either way. Then we have Samantha Flaglet.
Samantha Flaglet. Or Flaggett. Sorry, I'm the worst.
You... You did it, and I appreciate that about you.
You probably... bake really well, I feel.
I don't know. Sometimes you say that to like people and I think it's funny.
And I think it's right. I think it is. I like this last name.
We have Susan Clevenshire. Oh, Clevenshire.
It's probably Clevenshire. But I like Shire.
Either way, that's an awesome last name.
You're awesome for donating. So thank you so much. thank you thank you then we have madison dillinger madison dillinger you know you have a good last you know you do you know you belong here you know it and I appreciate it and then we do have one two three four Three.
I'm going to name three Patreon Hall of Fame people.
Are you ready for the Hall of Fame? Bye-bye.
Alyssa Vafiadis. Alyssa Vafiadis. You are an MV.
MVP. MVP. Most valuable Patreon. Oh, love it.
One of the most. All of you are so valuable.
Of course. Then we have Melissa Elio. Melissa Elio, you are an MVP as well.
Thank you so much. And last but certainly never the least, we have Caitlin Danziger.
Caitlin Danziger, you are the... third vip of the day and i appreciate you guys you belong in the hall of fame we're gonna scream your name Thank you guys so much for listening.
And we hope you keep listening. And we hope you.
Keep. It. Woo. weird but that's whether you do any of the things involved in this episode because like just don't do that Literally don't do even one of these things.
None. None. Except maybe pose for like Harper's Bazaar and Vogue.
That'd be cool. Don't even do, just don't do any of it.
Oh yeah. Blanket statement, nothing. Not to, not to do. you If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
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