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I have been listening to the Martha's Vineyard Beach and Book Club, which actually Elena recommended to me.
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We'll see you next time. available on qualifying orders retail sales only some exclusions apply see store for details Hey, weirdos.
I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And I'm Ronnie. And I'm Ben.
And this is Morbid. It's a mashup, Morbid.
It's Morbid... I don't know how to mash those two up.
The Morbid Mash. I was going to try to. Watch what Morbid... It's watch what...
Mappins. Watch what more bids. Yeah. There you go.
There you go. Who knows? We tried. We have special guests with us today.
We have Ben Mandelker and Ronnie Karam from Watch What Crappens.
Thank you so much for coming. Thank you guys so much for having us Thanks for having us Hot lane, hot inch You are always welcome here.
I think everybody who's listened has heard us both recommend Watch What Crappens. probably a zillion times probably from the beginning of the show thank you guys so much for doing that we love your show I love murders and I've gotten really addicted to listening to your show.
I love that. That jinx. I love that. Honestly, I love that.
Your show is that thing where everybody's like, what do you guys do to stop like thinking about these horrific murders and like bring yourself back into like a happy place and I'm like I listen to Watch What Crappens.
I just watch Watch What Crappens. I recommend that to all.
You know, it's funny because to stop from thinking about the darkness of the housewives, I watch murder shows constantly.
So isn't that weird? It's a weird circle.
It's a different kind of darkness. It's a beautiful cycle.
I often pitch the show, I say, When people say, what's our podcast about?
I'm like, it's the thing that makes you not think about grisly death.
You know, it's that sort of distraction.
That's the tagline. Watch what happens. We'll make you forget about Christmas.
Yeah. Make that your new description. Watch what happens.
No one dies. Until it drives you back to the murders.
Except almost Lisa Rinna's mother. Yes. Which we just talked about.
We have not covered that serial killer yet, but now we have to.
Now we're going to do that like next week.
David Carpenter. Yeah, almost murdered Lisa Renner's mom.
Renner's. Lisa Renner's mom. The Trailside Killer killed people on hiking trails, which is just so rude.
I mean, murder is rude in general, but like...
Do you know how hard it was for me to get out there and exercise in the first place?
Yeah, right? And then you're going to murder me about it?
It's also so cliche, right? It's like, I don't know if I want to go on that trail because what if there's a murderer there and everyone's like there's no murderer and then the trailside murderer's like I actually think I'm gonna do that I will murder someone on the trail I'll do that Not only that, I'm going to make it my thing.
Yeah. I'm the trailside murderer now. Yeah.
Make it more convenient for me if you're going to kill me.
Like a treadmill murder. You won't catch me there.
And you're not expecting anyone there. No, never.
That would be better. Not even expecting myself there.
Really ruined trails. Honestly. Well, today, unfortunately, we're not talking about the Trailside Killer, but we are going to talk about other killers.
And today we are going to do something a little different.
And hopefully everybody's not like, ah, You're probably usually like, ah, anyways. we decided we were going to do something just like weird and spooky and i'm also going to bring you down for a minute so like just get ready It's like your job.
I'll like try to bring you up a little bit.
I don't know. I can't promise anything. But what we are going to do is talk about four. songs that most people probably have heard, especially one.
One is very popular. And these songs were written based off of true crime events or just really like weird, spooky, creepy events.
Mm-hmm. And we're just going to talk about the real case.
We're going to talk about the song and we're going to talk about how weird it is that people write songs about murders.
Yay. I think it'll be fun. Morbid the Musical.
Exactly. Once more with feeling. Yes. I'll just stake it.
So the first one we're going to talk about is the one that I think everybody's at least going to remember the song.
If you hear the song and you go to your Spotify and listen to it, you're going to be like, oh, yeah, that song.
It's The Way by Fastball. It's like a really upbeat song, kind of summery.
It is summery. I was listening to it the other day after you brought it up and I was like, And then I was like, oh, oh, wait.
Oh, hold on. Yeah, I was just listening to it in the car very recently.
And I was like, oh, this song, I actually... bought that CD in 1998.
I have the Fastball CD. And I pretty much bought it for that song.
That was back in the day when like pre MP3 where.
My rubric was that if I liked two songs, I would buy the CD.
And I actually liked the way so much I bought the whole CD based on that one song.
On One Single? Yeah. Wow. yeah it's a bop this song and it's one of those you know i'm not really a big lyrics listener in general, like I never know the lyrics to songs and I get them wrong all the time.
So this one, the second I heard it for this, I was like, oh my God, I love this. this song how is this about two old people wandering off and dying in their car like how is that You tricked me.
We're all walking around like... Oh, yeah.
It's true. It's so true. And those lyrics are so good.
So infectious. There's an article about the song.
I don't know if you guys saw it in your research.
But there's an article from actually two years ago that's sort of commemorating the 20-year anniversary of the song.
And it's telling about the history, but it intersplices it with the lyrics.
Yes, I saw that. And as you read the lyrics...
You just know exactly the lyrics. Like those lyrics.
Yes. You're like, oh, I know exactly what part of the song that is because the lyrics just get into your head.
Oh. And when you first listened to it, you were like, oh, cool.
It's like a song about two people who are just like...
Forget about it. We're going to go on the open road and forget about our lives and everything's going to be great.
You're like, wow, fun. Except I never listened to the one part of the song where it says their children woke up and they couldn't find them.
And I was like, whoa. How did I miss that?
You had children and you just abandoned them.
My problem is that I recite lyrics. I can sing lyrics but I don't actually pay attention to them.
So I just like blindly, I'm like, the children woke up and they started crying.
I'm like, ha ha ha. But I'm not actually thinking like their children woke up and started crying.
Like, wait, what? Yeah. That never hit me until now.
Yeah, but also, like, that's what children do.
So it's like, who cares? It's still a bot.
It's like the children wake up, they're crying, but the parents are drunk on the lawn having fun.
It sounds fun, you know? But then to find out it's about this It's about an 88 year old and an 83 year old couple, one with Alzheimer's, one who just had brain surgery. they go to some fair in Salado, Texas, and then just disappear and are found two weeks later dead in their car.
I mean, you guys, I get that we have to make things sexier for entertainment, but what if their children woke up and couldn't find them?
They're 88 and 83. Yeah. Exactly. I was thinking that too when we were just talking about that.
It's like, well, they woke up like in their own home.
Yes, they woke They were just crying because their marriages were falling apart.
Had nothing to do with their parents being missing.
Yeah. They weren't like in cribs, like being like, mama.
Where are you? Yeah. I need you to literally survive.
It's still bleak, but in a different bleak way.
They were trying to make it bleak. It's more about the emptiness of their lives.
It's even bleaker. It's like your 50 year old child wakes up crying. bigger story going on.
It's a totally different bleakness. It is.
Well... The real story is... It's like a... I don't remember this happening at all, but apparently it was like...
It was nationwide news. This was a big deal when they were missing.
And their names were Layla and Raymond Howard.
And like you said, Layla was 83 and Howard was 88.
They lived in Texas. They had both been married for like a really long time before finding each other.
But both of their spouses had passed away.
And I think it had been like a decade between them losing their spouses and them meeting each other.
So they had a decade of like just hanging.
Like before they met. Before they met each other.
Gotcha. And they met in 1986 at church and they fell in love and they got married that same year.
And Raymond had recently undergone brain surgery.
I think he had had a stroke. And he had been in a small car wreck that he had gotten some kind of brain injury.
Mm-hmm. And Layla was showing a lot of signs that she was suffering from like Alzheimer's or some kind of dementia.
There was definitely some memory loss going on, and since Raymond was going through the brain surgery trauma, he was having memory loss.
So their family was getting a little concerned about them driving.
I think I would. and they tried they were getting so they would hide their keys sometimes but then they said that they respected them so much and this upset them so they didn't want to And it's kind of like a fine line you have to walk.
If you're going to hide the keys, at that point just take the keys.
No, they don't stop. Because you kind of become a little kid again.
We took my grandpa's keys away because he was just literally running into everything.
And he still had his wits about him, but he was just old.
I mean, he was in his mid-80s. And of course he didn't want to do it.
He was like, this is bullshit. This is bullshit.
My old Lebanese grandpa. And we took him away.
He would go through everyone's shit to find his keys.
And sometimes it seemed like he was trying... to hit things because that turned on my amazon for some reason amazon's like can i get you a bumper And it's a monologue.
You know when she comes on and she starts like, oh, by the way, if you need this, this, or this.
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And then in this story, they had been stopped a couple of times by the cops in Arkansas because they...
Their kids think they missed an exit or something, so they just kept driving all the way to Arkansas.
And I mean, listen, if you ever need somewhere to live and you like to drink and drive, go to Arkansas.
Hobbled over two times. Twice. And the cops were like, you're fine.
You're free to go. Twice. And they were only supposed to be going 15 minutes down the road this day.
15 minutes down the road. It was like a 10 mile drive.
It was to this like Pioneer Day festival thing that they went to every single year.
And their family was like, I think it was their son was like, hey, I can drive you and like drop you off and I will absolutely come get you later.
Like maybe we should do that. But Layla was like, we do this every year.
I can do it. Like, don't worry. I'm going to drive. hurts my heart I know so they let them go because I mean I don't I don't have like super elderly parents like in their like 80s with Alzheimer's so I can't imagine what it's like to have to be like Hey mom and dad, you can't go.
I have to bring you. It's like such a weird role reversal.
Yeah. They probably weren't ready for that.
And it feels disrespectful. I know. It must be such a strange place to be in.
And so they were like, nope, we're gonna go.
Doesn't that sound great? To be like, oh, my turn.
No, you are not going out right now, young lady.
Get your butt back in your bedroom. I'm actually excited for that maybe a little bit.
They wouldn't let me go anywhere. You're going to pay it back.
The rebel kid's revenge. Except at this point, they're like, we don't want to go anywhere.
Exactly. That's fine, Ash. You're like, you have to go out.
Go do something. So yeah, they went off in Layla's Oldsmobile.
She was driving because she had become the primary driver at this point, especially after his accidents, but like she was still going through it.
So it wasn't awesome. Usually they came home around 3 PM on the days that they went to this festival, but 5 p.m. came around 8 p.m. nothing nothing was happening they didn't hear from them So they immediately called the police because their family was like, ah, what could be happening right now?
So the news was everywhere. This went out everywhere.
Except Arkansas. I was just gonna say, that's what's crazy to me is it's like, It kept saying in all the sources I was reading, like, this was nationwide news.
It was everywhere. Not Arkansas. Helicopters were searching for them and it's like, but these two Arkansas cops are like, guys i think we might have seen those those peeps hey what you doing Did anyone ask them where they were going?
That's my question, right? They did. But if they were supposed to have gotten off at an exit, if the theory is that they missed an exit but then kept on driving, Don't you think that like the police officers might have said something like, Hey, where are you going?
And they're like, Oh, certain town in Texas and then say, oh, turn around.
Like, I'm wondering what is happening there.
More funny you say that because one of the cops that stopped them said they did seem a bit disoriented.
Which is like, if you stop an elderly couple who is disoriented, like...
Maybe call someone. I don't find family.
I don't know what the protocol is for that, but they're There should be one.
But it doesn't seem like you pat them on the ass and send them on their way.
Guys, you have to remember, it was Pioneer Day.
There were probably loads of older people drunk on the roads.
That's very true. It was probably down to that, like, oh, it's another drunk, frisky old couple again that we're pulling over, you know?
You know. Are your eyes crossing? Good, get yourself on it.
You're good, you can get it. Five tree branches and a stop sign wedged into your fender, but we think you're good to go.
Well, it was the second cop that stopped them because I guess they didn't have their headlights on.
So that's why he pulled them over. And he talked to them and he said that, first of all, he said that Layla in particular was so gentle and seemed like his own grandma.
Oh, stop right now. Okay, just rip my heart out of my chest.
Thanks a lot. That's grandma privilege right there.
And she said... Oh, I can't wait for that.
Right? She said that they were trying to get to Texas.
But even that to him wasn't like... cause for concern like you should go back there because he also was like hey where are you from and she was like i don't know And he was like, oh, okay.
Cool, just get back on the road with your vehicle on a highway.
And he flicked on their headlights and we're like, just...
Let's get back that way. She said she didn't know where she was from.
That should have... Ding, ding, ding. And did you say he flicked on the headlights?
He flicked on her headlights for her and was like, oh, there you go.
I guess that was like... Let me help you out there, ma'am.
Here you go. Let me not just drive you to where you're supposed to go.
You're welcome. You know, in his defense, which I don't know why, but just for fun, things were very different. back then you know you know it was a headlight you had to actually switch on it's not like now you get on and everything turns on and then If you don't have your seatbelt, it's like ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.
It wasn't the automatic headlights that go on.
Right. If you miss your exit, your car is like, idiot. make a u-turn idiot make a u-turn like back then you had to have maps and memory and It just seems like people get arrested for far less than what these couples...
There are certain people in this world who they have one fraction of those things that they do on their pullover.
It's not going to end in the same way. It would take a little more time, a little more time.
They definitely would. Well, this actually later made that particular department. do like a whole overhaul of how they dealt with like impaired elderly drivers because they were like yeah this shouldn't have happened yeah like Literally, they need a protocol.
I think I said that. This could have stopped there.
Right. They would have found them, they would have contacted the family, and they wouldn't have let them drive again.
So the family found out about this. They did find out that two cops stopped them because they were getting like sightings of them throughout Arkansas.
So now they're like, what the hell is going on oh my god imagine being their kids yeah but they're getting like hope now because they're like okay they're alive like they're just tooting through arkansas And I guess Layla also had like family in Arkansas.
So they were like, maybe she's trying to find them.
I don't know. They made like a lot of different drives to Arkansas themselves to try to look for them.
They couldn't find them. 11 different states were looking for them at one point.
They were spotted at a farmer's market together. in Arkansas, so they must have stopped.
Isn't that adorable? If you go off in a blaze of glory, get some fresh produce, you know?
This was really good to take Ash for a ride.
Yeah, my heart. But yeah, they couldn't find them.
Then 13 days after they went missing, Two young boys in Hot Springs, Arkansas were walking home from a video store and they smelled something very strong while they were walking by a cliff that led to like a ravine and a creek. uh they went home straight home and they told their parents they were like they didn't see anything they didn't see anything Because this place was also searched at one point, but police couldn't see because it was such thick brush. that they might have already been down there and they didn't know.
Because they had already searched. You know, I mean, this one...
The benefits of rural areas because if you're in los angeles and you walk by something that has a crazy smell like that You're like well, it's thursday Yeah right but it also shows the difference in like how much the police pay attention and how much the parents pay attention because The police are like, oh, these two people are kind of out of it, lost, don't have their headlights on.
Nothing fishy here. But the kids come home and say, Mom, the creek smells weird.
Well, of course the creek smells weird, you know?
But the parents have more foresight to be like, hmm, maybe there's a crime.
Exactly. And they did. They called the police because they were like, maybe someone should just go check.
I don't know. so the police showed up and at the bottom of a 25 foot cliff they found leila and raymond's oldsmobile There were no skid marks leading to the cliff, so there was no break happening, they just So maybe she thought she was just going down like a rural road.
They think that maybe because they also think they were going about 50 miles per hour.
They could tell. So they think that she either didn't see the cliff and just sailed right off of it or maybe thought it was a turn or maybe something happened that she became impaired to the point where it just Oh, that gives me chills too to like picture that.
Yeah. He seemingly had passed away pretty quick.
He was in the passenger seat, still in the passenger seat.
She, however, had left the vehicle and had managed to walk a short distance, a very short distance, before collapsing and passing. passing away and from things i read she was still like holding the keys and everything oh my god Wow, this is terrible.
Why did they write a song about this? They had traveled more than 400 miles away from their home.
400 miles in 13 days. And they were supposed to go 15 minutes away.
15 minutes away. It's like such a sad, sad ending to this story because it sort of has a whimsical quality to it.
It does. It does, which is why they wrote the song, I think.
Pioneer stop. And it's just like, they're just cruising through and like, seems like everything's just vibing together vibes yeah but it's just like then it ends and you're like womp A huge bump at the end.
That's not how I wanted it to end for them.
The only thing their grandkids and their children said that like they were glad they were together yeah that happened like it wasn't just one or the other But I hate that she was alone for, like, even a minute walking around.
Yeah. I can hope is that, like, she didn't know what was going on.
Yeah, I would hope. It must have been also so startling, right?
I mean, have you ever been driving in a branch?
Going off a cliff? I know it's sort of a hot take I know a little bit But yeah, the lyrics, anyone can see that the road that they walk on is paved in gold and it's always summer.
They'll never get cold. They'll never get hungry.
They'll never get old and gray. Aww. Isn't that like... Ruin me.
That part is... That's what I wrote down for creepiest lyrics. that gave me chills and then at the end it says you can see their shadows wandering off somewhere they won't make it home but they really don't care But maybe they do care.
I just don't find the song creepy. How do you know that?
Oddly enough, I don't find the song creepy because...
From what I read, the song was written almost like the... leaning into the liberation aspect of it.
Like, let's make a break for it. Let's go to the Ozarks.
And then, you know, it sort of didn't pan out.
But like, I actually feel like there, I think that fastballs angle is the right one, which which is, this is it, let's just go, and maybe it wasn't supposed to end exactly like that, But, you know, I do feel like they probably had a fun adventure to finish it all out.
I feel like they did up until that point.
Well, it's like you said. Because we're going to farmer's markets now.
Yeah, they actually wrote it during the search, the 13 day search, because I think their manager had told them because I think they were like kind of like stuck lyrically. and so their manager was like hey you should look at the newspaper the news and like get inspired by things, which is, like, strange.
I guess it makes sense, though. It does.
It makes sense. Now keep looking. No, keep on looking.
So Tony Scalzo, I think his name is, the lead singer of Fastball, he said, quote, So he opened up the newspaper because he was like, all right, I'll do it.
And he said, I looked in right away, the story sort of stuck with me.
It was sort of an ongoing story, still no developments in the case of the missing couple.
I just started getting these ideas. Well, maybe they don't wanna be found.
Maybe they're just like, they're sick of being responsible and they just wanna go out and have fun.
Which is, that's exactly what he wrote. Yeah.
You know what I think it was? It was, the headline that they, so he saw this story in the Austin American Statesman newspaper.
And the headline said, elderly salado couple missing on a trip to nowhere.
Which I was like, that's the headline that draws.
That would be very inspiring. It is and it's also good for tourism because in Texas there probably like literally is a town named because we have a bunch.
We've got lots of little towns out here.
People are like, hey, honey, have you checked out Nowhere?
Could you look that up? You ever been nowhere?
I feel like it's so snobby. Maybe they were going somewhere and they're like, they're going nowhere.
They're just going nowhere. Their career shaming them, the paper.
Their family loves it. Enjoy your trip to nowhere, old people.
Wasn't actually, wasn't the toy box killer from Truth and Consequences?
Yes. Yes, he was. That's the name of the town that he was from?
Yeah. an actual town named Truth and Consequences.
Wow, that's in New Mexico, right? New Mexico, that's what it was.
I was like, is that Texas? Yeah, close.
That name always bothered me growing up because people would be like, hey, we're gonna go to Treat the Consequences for the weekend.
It just always sounded like a game that I wasn't popular enough to be asked to play.
It also sounds like really bleak. Like I don't want to go to truth and consequences.
No. I want to go to lies and not consequences.
Lies and no consequences. Let's go to lies and freedom for the weekend.
Lies and irresponsibility. No accountability ever.
New Mexico. Los Angeles. I love it. Well, their family loves it.
They think it's like a great tribute to them.
I guess at first when they heard it on the radio, because it was released as a single and they were like, hey, that kind of sounds like what happened to mom and dad.
Oh, shit. And then they found out afterwards that it was written about their mom and dad.
And they said Layla would have loved it. like she would have loved to be like a star as she would like bop to it yeah And they said like it feels like a very good tribute to them because like they like to take little trips and adventures together.
So it feels like it's like right to them.
Which I love. Well, and it just takes the like...
I keep saying bleak, but it just takes the bleakness out of it all.
It does. It takes the darkness that definitely could be attributed with this song.
Right. It makes it, like I think somebody said before, it makes it whimsical.
I love that the family loves it because I love love, but also...
No, because I was sort of expecting the article to then tell us about some protracted legal battle.
And I like that they actually were just like...
This is so awesome that we have this song to remember Grandma and Grandpa.
A nice tribute. Yeah, right? Yeah. And that she would have loved it.
Like, I love that she would have been like, that's me.
Hell yeah. And it just goes to show you, you may just think you're, you know.
On your way to some pioneer fair with your husband.
It's like another day. But you're going to be written about. very shortly in a pop song, you know?
So keep your heads up, everybody. Live for that, if nothing else.
Fastballs listening. Listen, all of you out there in truth or consequences, New Mexico.
Just keep that in mind next time you're having a bad day.
We're out there looking for lies. unresponsive and no accountability yeah basketball is basically like the dick wolf of Songwriters, right?
Yes. Rip from today's headlines. They're officially...
They need to make several albums that are just ripped from today's headlines.
I would love that, actually. I would, too.
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Well, they're not getting invited to the Lilith Fair.
Lilith Fair. Now there's a crime. That would be a crime.
I would like to see her song about this because it would be beautiful.
Sarah McLachlan actually has a song that she wrote that I almost included on this.
Possession? Was it Possession? Yes, that's about the stalker that she had that sent her and she uses pieces of the letters that he sent her in the...
What song is it? Possession. Oh, I don't know if I've heard that.
It's like really creepy. I probably haven't.
I just don't realize it. Yeah. We'll have to talk about that one in another because I feel like there's so many of these that I kind of want to do a part two at some point.
We should just have a series with Ronnie and Ben called Hot Takes on Songs. but one i will say this next one is like womp womp like this one's definitely a real bummer So get ready, everybody.
Hold on to your butts. This is called Suffer Little Children, and it was written by Morrissey.
Morrissey's always out there just doing the most.
He's feeling a lot of feels and he's letting us know about it.
Usually I love it, but this one is who? Well, this one is about the Moore's murders.
And if you listen to Morbid, which you're here.
If you listen to Morbid's four part series.
Yeah, I did four episodes on the Morse murders.
So I spent like weeks. like totally enveloped in those and if you want to listen to those episodes by the way because i'm just going to give a quick overview of this yeah They're 166, 167, 168, and 169.
And you will hear our mental health decline.
You will hear us have to take many a breather and...
Watch many a Bravo shows and listen to many Watch What Crappens episodes.
Oh, we definitely recommend you guys in one of those. episodes because we're like i'm just gonna go listen to ronnie in bed i can't well this lady myra hindley does have dorinda hair She does.
She also has like a kind of Dorinda-esque face, like somewhat.
I never really noticed that, but now, oh, I hate that.
She does. I hate that. Not my girl, Dorin.
No, definitely not Dorin. It's literally the same hairstyle.
It literally is. Not even like a joke. It's like it's exactly the same.
It is the same. Yeah, they're a terrifying looking couple.
The picture on Wikipedia of them is really scary.
There's always been something scarier about couples murdering people.
I mean, not only because there's more people, like obviously it's two people, so that's scary, but also there's just something about couples in general, you know, like when you're single and you're hanging around couples, it's not all couples, obviously, but there are some of those couples who are just like,
Oh, really? I was Like they only talk to each other or they give each other these weird looks while you're there and it's, there's just something, there's always that feeling of, I could be murdered.
By this couple. And it's just it's always weird when two people.
That's what I was going to say. find each other.
This is a very niche thing they were doing. a niche market like abducting and murdering children like that's niche to me And for two people in the world to find each other and be like, I like you.
Right. Hey, do you also like to abduct and murder children?
And for them to be like, yeah. Well, because that's the thing.
That's wild to me. Like, how does that happen?
Right. And I feel like a lot of times it's usually one person influencing the other, like a lot more.
And Myra tried to say that Ian was doing that to her.
But I think each of them like on their own would have been like fucked up either way and did like fucked up.
Oh, yeah. You listen to her. Not that you can listen to the tape, which holy hell, I can't imagine if you could.
No, thanks. But if you listen to her on the tape of one of these murders... she's just as much into it as ian is and she tried to claim she wasn't until they found this tape and they were like What witch?
And she was like, oops, I guess I was mean on that one.
And it's like, oh, to a 10-year-old that you murdered?
Like, are you kidding me? Yeah, she definitely tried the whole, you know, well, it was all him.
He drugged me and he brainwashed me. Yeah.
But, yeah, it seems like it was as much her because this relationship was just crazy. crazy from the very beginning.
Like the stuff they used to do on dates.
They would go to an X-rated film and then go drink German wine at Hindley's house.
And you're like, what? Casual, just Friday.
Just real casual. Would you like to go watch an X-rated film this weekend with me?
I've got some wine. well and it's like that's like a weird tinder pickup and you're like i gotta Who wants some Riesling and watch an X-rated movie?
They always... talk about it like they're like like what everything I read about them they're like well Ian was so like handsome and charming which I'm like Where?
Show me. At what angle? And then they say that like Myra was this ugly bridge troll, which like she was.
But like... but they're always just like you know it i can't believe that ian would like take her into this and i'm like what What?
He's a child rapist. Why are we putting him above her?
First of all, they are on equal playing fields of gross.
Everybody's always angrier at the woman.
It's like a society thing. Oh, it's so ridiculous.
Yeah, people feel more betrayed by that.
I'll give super... I'm not going to go super into the details of it because...
My brain literally won't go back into those.
Yeah, I can't go there. Even you just referencing that tape, I was like, I closed my eyes first.
I'm going to go somewhere else. This is one of their dates, okay?
This is some of their dates. Brady then gave her reading material and the pair spent their work lunch breaks reading aloud to one another from accounts of Nazi atrocities.
Yep. They would literally read like Mein Kampf and like...
Like literally give each other book reports.
Didn't quite make it to the Oprah book club.
Not quite. Not quite. Just missed it. How was your lunch?
And they would just sit and read aloud to each other from it.
Those couples are weird, too. I knew a couple like that who had couples book club but only with themselves and And they would be like, so how are you guys doing?
They're like, today we have Burt Club and we like read to each other.
We'll go have picnics and read to each other.
So it's like that gross couple, but with Mein Kampf.
Like, that's too much. Gross and grosser.
I don't think Mein Kampf is ever a value add to any situation. especially not a couple book club I can tell you the only thing that John and I have ever done even remotely close to that is when that podcast S-Town came out and he was working during the day and I was at home during the day If we would listen to the episodes and then like text you and be like, did you listen to episode one?
Don't listen to episode two yet. You have to wait for me.
That's like a TV show, watching something together.
But I'm like, no, we could not have booked that.
That was a good one, S-Town. Oh, such a good one.
But it was such a bummer at the end. It was such a bummer the whole time.
Actually, I need to still listen to the end.
I listened to the first I think three and that one just gets so sad too because there's like suicide and all this stuff you gotta finish it out yeah I do, yeah.
I needed a break and it's been a while. But yeah, then I found Spiritual Podcast.
So it's definitely back to S-Town. I need to figure out what's going on.
Because I started looking up like the pictures of his maze and stuff online because you can find them.
I got like real... Real into that rubbish.
I haven't actually even listened to S-Town.
I feel very bad about this. I'm like many years behind. it's so good same I listened to the first episode and then you kind of told me what it was about and I was like well our job is already really a lot so I think I'm gonna to just listen to anything else.
I've been listening to Welcome to Your Fantasy because that's like, you know...
Involves more shirtless men, I feel like.
There you go. Well, now that we've all brought ourselves up, let me just smash us all into the ground really quick.
So the Moore's murders, like we said, are Myra Hindley and Ian Brady.
They were in a really weird relationship together.
Womp womp. They had five victims between 1963 and 1965 in Scandinavia.
Scotland, at least five that we know of.
There's definitely way more. Yeah. They had Edward Evans, who was 17 years old.
Keith Bennett was 12 years old. Pauline Reed was 16.
John Kilbride was 12 years old and Leslie Ann Downey was 10 years old.
Uh, they buried their victims in various places on Saddleworth Moore, which is why they are referred to as the Moore's murderers.
Um, Keith Bennett's body has never been found to this day.
Has not been found. Because the Moors are like...
Huge. They're like bogs, right? Oh, yeah.
And it's like. It's like so vast, so vast.
Yeah. I mean, there's a whole monster up there in Scotland.
I mean, they can hide anything. They can't.
They have a prehistoric monster in a lock.
They literally have a monster. Yeah, we're pretty hardcore.
Yeah, that monster is right outside of a castle that is my last name.
The Urquhart Castle. Yeah, yeah. Just throwing that out there.
It's like not my last name, but that's my family's last name.
But whatever. I have a monster-adjacent castle.
Hell yeah. I used to tell people in elementary school that we vacationed there, but it's just ruins.
Oh. People believed me. Just went with it.
Going to my Scottish castle this weekend.
How about you? With Nessie. I have a pet.
My vacation pet. Unfortunately, though, Keith Bennett's mother did die never before. getting his body back and never knowing where he was, which she, They tried everything for years to try to get these assholes to say where any of them were, and they wouldn't give it up.
Oh. They also have photos found where they would go out together to the Moors all the time.
All the time. Not just to bury bodies, but also to just like hang out.
To read Mein Kampf to each other. Yeah, and just like take weird ass pictures of each other.
They were just like, they were so dumb. But there's photos of them posing on the victim's graves and like with their dog pop it.
Like cheesing. Yes, their dog puppet. And then they were using the box brownie, you know, Like everything just sounds so cute, but they're just murdering kids.
I know, they're the worst. Yeah, terrible.
And in particular, Leslie Ann Downey's assault and murder was captured on audio tape. tape, the former police chief John Stalker said of this tape, quote, I first heard the tape when I was a detective sergeant in Manchester investigating the Moores murders.
When the 16-minute tape was played at the police station before the trial, I saw senior detectives and legendary crime reporters, hard men who had been through the war. and seen terrible things dissolve into tears.
Anybody unfortunate enough to have to listen to her harrowing last desperate moments could not fail to conclude that Hindley was evil and an equal partner with Brady in the crimes.
There are transcripts of this tape. I do not recommend you look them up.
It will... ruin you. It's horrific, but when you see them, because I read them in like a book that I was reading to research the case, you truly see how fucking evil these people are.
Like evil. Straight up evil. Gives me chills.
I would never be the same again after reading that.
No, that case is honestly one of the worst to me.
This is definitely one of those cases where...
You know that saying, don't judge a book by its cover.
This is definitely one of those books. that you judge by its cover.
You see the cover of this book and it looks freaking terrifying.
Both of them just look They look dead inside.
Yeah, they do have dead eyes. Yeah, dead inside.
Oh yeah, especially Ian's, that picture of him.
He looks like a monster. He literally looks like a monster without even knowing anything.
There's just nothing. Because I remember I didn't know anything about this entire case and you showed me the picture and I was like, I hate him.
I don't know what he did but I hate him yeah he's got like that frown and just that vacant evil Yes, and it's like a permafrost.
There's evil and then there's stupid evil.
And stupid evil I think is scarier. It is just nothing.
Right. There's just nothing behind there.
And there's like because that's the picture that a lot of people see is that mugshot photo of him.
And if you see other photos of him, he looks even scarier.
Like that photo is really scary. And then you see him just like. in polaroid photos with her and shit and or not polaroids but like old timey photos and uh like even from the side and stuff he's always just like furrowed like he's always scowling and angry and you're just like Well, he is more handsome in other photos though.
I looked him up because you said that. And there are some where I guess I can see the handsome part.
I mean, not that that really matters in a murder case.
But it kind of does because that's how he kind of convinced people that he was an okay guy.
Right, yeah. you know that's like some of them it does matter because it gets people unfortunately A prettier face will sometimes make people believe that you're less of a threat.
Yeah, like look at all of anybody's ex-boyfriends or girlfriends.
Yeah, exactly. It's called Look at the Cast of Summer House, okay?
Yeah. Yeah. Seriously. Just because you have a nice face doesn't mean you're not garbage.
There you go. Jax. Jax Taylor. And this also goes to show how you can really mask your face without fillers and stuff. by like smiling or you know smoking a cigarette cool from the profile side where you look kind of handsome But then in the mugshot, when it's like you're just caught and it's just you're playing evil right there on your face.
And everything just leaks out. It's just who you are.
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Well, they were arrested, luckily, after Myra's brother-in-law, David Smith... witnessed and was asked to participate and cover up the murder of their last victim, which was 17 year old Edward Evans.
He broke the next morning after seeing all that and he called the police.
But Edward Evans murder was literally Ian straddling him in their home with a hatchet and just demolishing his head.
Oh, my God. David and then just being like David I need help because I hurt my ankle while I did this so I can't carry him by myself And this sounded like they were kind of trying to bring him in, right?
The brother? because he had met her brother and then the brother and him got along really, really well.
And then the brother was kind of jealous of their relationship because he liked him so much.
Yeah. And so they would go to the... what is it, like go to the lake or whatever and hang out all the time.
And Ian was always buying beers and stuff.
It looked like they were kind of grooming this guy.
And then it went south. But Myra was not into it at all.
She didn't want him coming in because you don't want to add more people to your murder scheme.
Well and she was actually thinking that way which shows like how when she comes out later and is like oh I just I didn't know and he just made me do it and then you find out that she was like no i don't want him in here because we'll get caught i want it just to be you and i doing so that we can keep doing this I want to keep like murdering children forever and ever and he's gonna ruin it and it's like and then later she's like ooh No, you can't have it both ways, man.
It's really hard when you mix family with, you know, business, right? it is it really is uh and luckily though you know they chose the wrong guy and he Yeah, thankfully.
And he was not into it. And he called the police from a payphone down the street. um they're both dead now whoop whoop uh they both died in prison serving life sentences myra tried desperately to be released several times she wrote notes to the victims families like a monster that she is She wrote a note to Leslie Ann Downey's mother who had to identify her 10-year-old baby on that tape. like begging for her and had to identify her that way she had the audacity to write her a letter and be like i deserve to be let out i billy can i kill her with my bare hands and she wouldn't say where the dead body was about one guy but wouldn't say where keith bennett's body is yeah Yeah, the most depressing thing about their deaths is reading how they died.
His was, Hindley, no, this is hers. Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.
And his was, I don't know, some some other natural cause, like you mentioned.
Oh bronchial pneumonia I was just going to say I'm pretty sure it was just pneumonia It really just seems unfair You know I mean, no matter what.
Oh, sorry. Oh, no, don't worry. I was just going to say, I will say that when we, and I wish I had it in front of me.
I should have brought it up. They had a like, I found every ailment that they were suffering from at the end. and all they all did both of them were suffering from like several different like crazy crazy shit leading up to their deaths so I hope that they suffered it like makes you believe a little bit Okay, that's a better way to look at it then.
Thank you. Yeah, I wanted to give you that.
No, it's true. Well, when you listen to the Morrissey song, it's like, okay, well, then this fits.
Because the Morrissey song is just super...
Or the Smith song. It's just super, super depressing and sad.
I was listening to it and I'm like, oh. So dark.
This is clearly about extremely dark murders because it's taking me to a very dark place.
It's so dark, and it even has sound effects in it, like children laughing.
Yes. That's when I'm out. There's a woman laughing. in it and stuff like Myra it almost feels like and it's like ugh it was really disturbing because some of them are like we were saying earlier, like fun bops, you know, and then you get to this one and there's like,
No mistaking that it's about killing children.
It's like, little Eddie with your head. Yes.
Let me kill you, don't die. I'm like, gee, it's true.
It's literally you. It's a literal literal.
And you're like, whoa. That's the thing.
And, you know, John Kilbride's grandfather hated this song.
Of course. Hated Morrissey, hated this song, was not happy about it at all.
And I'm sorry to interrupt you, but you have to wonder in what situation are you putting this song on? well that's that's the thing what situation do you feel like you're just listening to this song like I guess if you really want to go into like a dark place, like dinner party music.
Yeah, right? You don't just toss it on. I'll listen to a good sad song, but it's usually not about child murder.
Hey, new neighbors. Welcome to my home. Right?
But it's so Morrissey, right? It is. Of course Marcy has a song called Suffer Little Children.
Of course he does. Of course. It is. That's the other thing.
The name alone is like, ooh. Leslie and Downey's mother, though, she at first was like, I don't know.
And then they became friends. Her and Morrissey?
Yeah. Oh, shit. He would go and visit her and I believe Keith Bennett's mother.
Wow. and would like would like give them money and like pay for things for them and like they all became close Well, I guess in like a strange way, it's like an artist's point of view of like commemorating what happened in their lives.
No fastball. No, it's definitely no fastball.
A little bit different. But Morrissey actually said he wrote the song because he was so haunted by the Moore's murders.
He said he's been kind of obsessed with it, not in a way like, oh, I'm so obsessed, but it just won't leave his mind.
Yeah. He actually grew up on or near a lot of the streets that these abductions took place.
I didn't even know that. Yeah. So he said he was a child at the time that it was happening, too.
So he heard all the warnings Everybody was terrified, felt personal.
Yeah. And so he said, quote, It was like the worst thing that had ever happened.
And I was very, very aware of everything that occurred.
Aware as a child who could have been a victim, all the details, you see it all, so evil.
It was, if you can understand this, ungraspably evil.
When something reaches that level, it becomes almost absurd, really.
I remember it at times like I was living in a soap opera.
And the song itself has quotes from Hindley's interviews and names all the victims.
And the creepiest lyrics for me are Leslie and with your pretty white beads. because that is one of the biggest things she was wearing a white beaded necklace that night that she had just gotten as a Christmas gift from her brother.
And that was like a big thing because those beads were found and tied back to them.
Oh, John, you'll never be a man. And you'll never see your home again.
Oh, Manchester, so much to answer for. Edwards, see those alluring lights?
Tonight will be your very last night. oh isn't it just like the whole time i like you know when your body just goes We've said that before.
You know what I mean? It's like it radiates for a second chills.
It's not even a chill. It's like a... But it's not a vibe.
I'm assuming the song didn't chart so well on Casey Kasem's America's Textile.
America Top 40. I doubt it. I doubt it. I doubt it.
I don't think so. But, you know. You never know.
But, you know, at the same time. It kind of shows you how shallow most of the music we listen to is now.
Oh, yes. Right? As I went through the lyrics of all these songs today, I was like, God, our music is really shallow.
What is it even about? You dumped me. Literally for three and a half minutes.
I mean, I only listen to Adele, so that's all I really hear.
But it's so true because this stuff is like really like cerebral and you have to like think about the different like...
They're using metaphor. Well, not Morrissey.
Morrissey's like murder. Morrissey's just straight up like, hey, this is what happened.
But like they're talking about stuff that is actually like. important yeah it should be discussed yeah and reflected upon And stories.
They're storytelling. Yeah, I literally cannot imagine what it must be like to grow up on a street for several years. where there is like a serial killer and you are the prime demographic.
The only thing that I can... even come close to equating it to, which is like not really the same thing at all.
But in L.A. about what, like eight or nine years ago, there was like a like around New Year's. there was this like serial arsonist that was lighting cars on fire.
And it was like for five days straight, this guy was lighting cars on fire.
Which is not the same at all as a serial killer.
But this vibe took over the city where it was like...
Who is going to like everyone became a vigilant.
It was like keeping an eye out for this arsonist.
And it was crazy. And for like five days, it was like, everyone was talking about the arsonist.
Everyone was keeping an eye out and you were just like on edge.
And I can only imagine that being exaggerated enough. or not exaggerated, but amplified by murder, right?
Yeah. And especially as like a child. And at that time.
Well, welcome to being a woman at any time in history.
That's true. Yeah. I was like that is true but like as a child yeah that's like every murder case it's I was just reading about one of the songs we talked about covering, and it was about a serial killer.
And one of the songs was how this woman wrote the song because it was during the Green River Killer time.
It's like 49 women or something. 47 or 49 women. just murdered and no one really cared because they were mostly sex workers or disadvantaged.
And it was so sad. And it's talking about feeling like a woman, you know?
In that time and probably every time. Yeah.
Because those are all the murders. Because those are literally all the murders.
No, it's true. It's literally like I want to go jogging in the mornings, but I won't go jogging in the mornings and it sucks.
But actually, it's funny that you brought that one up because that's the last one we're going to talk about. like a perfect transition what a great transition Ronnie oh I thought I'm so sorry I spoiled the whole thing no that was perfect You just let us right into it.
You intro'd it. You did. You segwayed, Rami.
That's a segway. You did. That's what professionals do.
Well, welcome to feeling like a woman. Ladies.
Take it away. Necco case closed. So this one is actually called Deep Red Bells by Necco Case.
And it is about Gary Ridgway's murders, the Green River Killer murders.
He was convicted of killing 49 women and girls between at least 1982 and 1998. making him the second most prolific serial killer in the United States, with the first being Samuel Little, who had 93 victims 93 plus yeah that's those are the ones he admitted to right He's thought to be responsible, though, for at least 71 murders.
Scary. Wow. At least. He says, I think he claims it's like upwards of 80.
They always do, though. They do, but he actually has the body count to back it up.
Most of these victims were teenage girls and runaways. sex workers who he would strangle manually, sometimes mechanically with a ligature. and then dump them in like wooded areas or creeks or the Green River.
This was in Washington State. He would also come back to the bodies many times to rape their corpses.
Oh. He got his nickname from the press because the first five victims they found were in the Green River.
And the thing is also, it was this guy, right, who he was actually the suspect right away. but they didn't have, they just didn't have the evidence.
There's like a full on movie, right? Like this is a thriller movie.
Where, you know, some movies are whodunits, but this is the one where it's like, you know who the killer is, but they don't have, they can't make the case yet.
And so the killer, it's usually like Jared Leto or something.
And he kind of like taunts you and everything.
And they bring him in for questioning and he smirks at the camera.
Such a good movie. And that's what this is.
They took like a swab. so they had dna but they didn't know what to do with it at that point right luckily i mean at least they did that well thank goodness they did it because it's what got him right caught later This is also like the highest requested morbid case.
We haven't done this one. Oh, yeah. And I should say, I'm going over this really quickly.
We are covering this on an episode. So like, don't worry.
This isn't the only time you're going to hear this and I'm not just going to like flow through it really quick.
We are going to cover it. It will be several parts.
Don't worry. It's coming. Great. I just have to get my mind in the place to like spend a lot of time with him first.
This is also another case of judge the book by the cover because this guy is scary looking.
This is like Dark Alley run the other way.
He was scary looking when he was younger.
He was scary looking when he was older. He... there's no point in his life he was not a serial killer stayed on that scary level yeah He really did.
Serving scary realness. He's so gross. Some people just really...
They just really land the role. They just are like, I'm going to be a serial killer, and I'm just going to really lean into it with my life.
Oh, yeah, like the Night Stalker. Oh, he committed.
Yeah. Even the bad breath. Yeah. that's so gross people describe his breath as wet leather But you know what's also about the Green River Killer?
Oh, you know that some super famous actor... cannot wait to ugly themselves up to be this role.
Oh, hell yeah. They live for that. Absolutely.
Matt Damon wants to do the bald thing with his head a little bit and do a little bit of a mustache and be like, bro.
Yes. I'm the killer now. Now that you said it, though, I want Jared Leto.
I need to see him play another serial killer.
I don't think he'd be good for this one.
This might be a Jesse Plemons sort of role, perhaps. oh yeah that's a good one I could even see this might be weird I feel like Edward Norton could do it Or maybe a stranger.
I can see a little Adam Driver, maybe. Adam Driver, 100%.
Like severe wiggage, you know, like lighting up his hair color and stuff.
And this is exactly the sort of role he would wanna do.
And then he'd make no one look at him in the eyes while he was getting into character.
He'd be like, do not look at me while I'm in the truck factory set.
Do not look at me. 100 now i want that i'm surprised that there hasn't been like a big movie about this It's coming.
But I guess it kind of did all just wrap up in the beginning of the 2000s.
So they usually wait like a beat. before they do it i also just waited a beat to tell you i do know who edward norton is i knew you knew I'm young, okay?
Oh, man. Okay, so Gary Ridgeway was arrested in 2001.
Thank goodness, because it was all thanks to the DNA advances.
He had been swabbed way back in the 80s.
And they finally, right, they swabbed his cheek in the 80s.
It sat on a shelf. And in 2001, they were finally able to use it to match with semen he left at the scenes.
Oh, yeah. He was that like... he was that like narcissistic and just like whatever that he was like i'm just i'm gonna leave it Well, I mean, you also have to think he probably didn't know that that was coming.
Yeah, you don't see it, but it's like... wow but it is narcissistic to just be like fuck it i can do whatever i want literally do whatever i want just leave my straight up dna all over the place because what's weird too is that he did a lot of shit and I'll talk about it in a minute to like he was meticulous about not getting caught But then would like leave that.
Then he would like leave his like business behind.
Right. It's very weird. But he said when he was first arrested, he immediately was like, nope, wrong guy.
You got the wrong guy. But then like almost immediately decided to just confess it all.
He just sat down and was like, let's talk about it.
I'm going to tell you all about it. Maybe he was just getting tired of covering it up.
No, I think he just wanted to talk about it.
He likes talking about it. And wanted to relive it.
Oh, yeah. And as you see, he is really excited to tell you about it.
He said he just wanted to kill as many sex workers as he possibly could.
That was his reason. He was like, bummer that you stopped me.
He said he hated them. He thought they weren't real people.
So he said, I didn't think anyone would really miss them.
And he was like, if anybody did, it would probably be later.
And then by then I'd be long gone. So it wouldn't matter.
Wow, whatever. grade A jackass. Yeah. He even said and I quote I do not have a good memory of their faces.
I killed so many women, I have a hard time keeping them straight.
That's lovely. Cool. Oh my god. Yeah, his childhood, he was a bed wetter. until he was 13 and his mother would wash his genitals after every episode.
Mm-hmm. and fantasized about killing her.
Yup. He had like a mutated Oedipus complex that turned like his, and he would say like later he hated her he said he used to he used to think about like cutting her face and stuff like this like okay ed gein was she a sex worker I don't think so.
I wonder what the hatred of that came from.
There needs to be more fly swatters slapping children's foreheads when they do something wrong.
That's what there needs to be more. Oh my goodness.
No more serial killers if we just all live by that.
Well, look at this. I mean, when he was 16... held back here in high school when he was 16 he stabbed a six-year-old boy who survived the attack richway had led the boy into the woods and then stabbed him through the ribs into his liver wow And he said he just wanted to see what it would feel like.
I hate when they say that. That's always the, like...
I'm all for experiential learning, but that is taking it way too far.
That's taking it to a place. Yeah, that's taking it to a real dark place.
Well, he said once the murders gained attention, he had to convince upwards of 50 of his victims that he wasn't the Green River Killer.
Well, yeah. And he said he did this because of course now once it was starting to gain attention. he these women were being like or these girls were being like like I'm nervous.
He said he did this by telling them the real killer must be a huge, muscly guy because of how violent and hands-on the murderer is.
Wow, that's scary. He said it was easy to convince them of this because he is about 5'10 and not like a like not very well built not like a thick guy and 510 to me is like Like, I'm like, whoa, you're tall.
But I think if you're small in stature, you look shorter.
And it makes sense that any average-sized person, then 5'10 is like, okay, you're average.
5'10 is not that crazy. No. And he said, quote, I look like an ordinary person.
Here's a guy. He's not really muscle bound.
He doesn't look like a fighter. Just an ordinary John and that was their downfall.
My appearance was different than what I really was.
Which is so creepy to hear him just be like, I knew that I didn't, that I just looked like some like creepy John that they weren't going to. thing twice but i didn't and i used that yeah that was their yeah there is There is a difference in his younger pictures.
One of his mug shots is from 1982. He has that floppy hair.
Yeah, and he's just kind of like a, you know, that 70s show, like the dad next door kind of guy.
Like he's gross, but not like, I'm scared of you gross.
Right, but the scary picture is the main one here from 2001 where he's just like, ugh.
The mugshot picture. He has really, really evil eyes.
He also kind of looks like BTK. Oh, yeah.
Right? What'd you say? A little bit, like it here.
A little bit. Yeah, I see that. Yeah, he has that vibe. venice raider vibes maybe it's just the mustache and like the eyes yeah it's like the beady eyes It is those beady eyes he definitely has.
And I do kind of feel mad again. Matt. Are you confused?
I got confused. I thought you said BTS, and I was like, what are you talking about, BTS?
Those lovely gentlemen. What? Why are you doing that?
Never. You saw my face. Did you see the horror on my face?
I didn't even see your face. I was like, excuse me.
How dare you? You literally were like... He does not look like BTS.
I've crossed over. BTS killings. Those are the cutest killings I've ever seen.
So well choreographed. They're just so supportive of each other.
Well, in 2003, in a plea deal, he received 48 consecutive life sentences without the possibility of parole.
Good. The plea deal also included him agreeing to reveal the locations of any bodies they couldn't find.
An interesting note that a lot of people know, but a lot of people might not.
Before Gary Ridgway was caught, Ted Bundy was in prison.
And he told authorities, he was like, hey, come here real quick.
And he was like, you should stake out some fresh grave sites.
That you find from the Green River Killer.
Because he's going to come back and try to have sex with those bodies.
Because he's like. I speak from experience.
Like he literally was like, I think he's like me and I did that.
So maybe you should go do that. So they did.
They didn't catch him that way, but they ended up like using it in his psychological profile that they did.
Like, we're not like. pat him on the back but it's like he was so gross and fucked up in such a weird niche way in an anomaly game recognized game that's what it is right So he literally is like, I'm really fucked up, and I can tell you that that person is the same kind of fucked up that I am, so let me tell you what I would Right.
Exactly. Which is strange. There's no honor among serial killers.
It's not like, oh, we've got to look out for each other.
It's like. If anything, there's competition in a strange way.
I think so. Yes. So I think he was probably like, he's edging in on my number.
Yeah. Because at that point, he was the most prolific.
Yeah. But it brings more attention to Ted Bundy, which I imagine there's a certain element in here.
Oh, it's huge. I'm sort of attention needing.
Because they're all narcissists. So they're like, no, I'm better.
Oh yeah, like Ted Bundy loved Ted Bundy.
No one loved Bundy like Bundy loved Bundy.
No one was his biggest fan more than he was.
Ain't that the truth. Yeah, he was gross.
But either way, it's very interesting that he would come out and be like, because he was right. that he was going back.
So he did have that part of him correct.
It's interesting. It's just so weird human patterns, right?
Where you can... That's just a pattern that exists in people.
That's a psychology. Where one person has that pattern, they're like, oh, I recognize that.
Here's what's going to happen next. And a lot of the serial killing and just stuff I've read over the years has been kind of that need for fame and also that need to be seen just by anybody.
It's like people who feel invisible. It's like, this is your, moment to be like original this is like your art and then to just find out that you're just another pattern it's like another broken pattern yeah it's so true Sorry, your fame wasn't really worth it, was it?
Sorry, pattern. Your pattern. But this piece of information really got to me, too.
He became religious during his second marriage, proselytizing door to door, reading the Bible aloud at work and at home.
And insisting that his wife follow the strict teachings of their pastor.
I mean... Like what? It's probably just another way to control people though.
Yeah. Yeah. And probably for him to look like more of like, I'm a God-fearing man.
I'm going to church. I'm not the Green River Killer.
Couldn't be me. Yeah, couldn't be me. um but he like i said before when i said he was so meticulous about not being caught right He would leave gum wrappers and cigarettes at scenes because he was not a smoker and didn't chew gum.
But he would just leave them there just to throw them off.
And it looks like something a serial killer would do after killing someone, like smoke a cigarette. well and they would grab that and be like cool we have evidence and it's not that's fucked I'm surprised he wasn't called the gum wrapper killer.
I know. You would think they'd go more on to this part.
Because the Green River, I mean, it's... it's ominous, but it's like, yeah, that could have really backfired for me.
Imagine if he was like, he was called like the bubble gum killer.
He'd be like, Oh man, And he'd be like, I can't do that.
I was hoping it would be scarier. The Doublemint Killer.
The Doublemint Killer. You should have named him that because it's lame. the bubble yum killer yeah right the jolly rancher oh man the hubba bubba murderer the hubba bubba I became the cutest killer in history. he would also change the tires on his truck like wow All the time.
Wow. So that the treads he would leave, like leaving scenes, would be different every time and they would not trace back to his truck.
I hate when I'm like, wow, that's smart.
I know. I hate when I'm like, whoa, way to use your brain.
I'm not like kudos. I'm just like, what the fuck?
Yeah. I know, but it's like only thinking up to a certain point because then they just, they're like, wow, so this guy has brand new tires on his truck.
Let's check tire stores. why does this guy have new tires every week?
You kind of just put yourself into a worse position.
That is true. You almost start calling attention to it at that point.
Yeah. I mean, the most amazing part is this DNA situation because...
He is so meticulous about giving red herrings and literally covering his tracks.
Yes. But then he just leaves just a big old clue.
It's not even like, wait a second, we realized that the light bulb... was from 1933 instead of from 1935.
And that couldn't be possible. It wasn't like one of those moments where like...
House MD figures it all out. No. It's like, literally like, oh...
They're literally like, oh, just get that sample we took from like this.
Okay, we got them. Science caught up. Okay, great.
Yeah, it's insane. That's why it's so weird to me that he just looks like very careless about that.
But I think it was part of his like narcissism and like nothing's ever going to happen that I would be caught.
Right. So I'm just gonna. Because DNA testing didn't happen until later, right?
Yeah, way later. Is that what it was? Yeah, it's like anyone who made porn in the 80s and thought it was never going to come back to haunt them because you have to go find out.
It's like, congratulations, the Internet.
You can find it. Well, when DNA testing became really popular and started being introduced in court cases and stuff, and I remember everybody saying like, oh, no one's gonna get away with crime now, because all they have to do, but then you just get so much more creative about it. you know and now there's cameras everywhere and now your phone tracks wherever you are your car tracks wherever you are so it seems like it would be much harder but It really does lead to smarter criminals, I guess.
Because they have to be innovative about it.
You have to learn how to get away. Yeah.
Well done, guys. Well done, criminals. You're doing great out there.
Thanks so much. Keep on keeping on, I guess.
I'm proud of y'all. Well, and he might have killed people up to like 2000.
Yeah, because he was arrested in 2001 and they said he could have killed in the 90s and everything.
So when DNA was a thing, he could have still been doing this and not caring, which is gross.
But the song. deep red bells is written to like the song is supposed to be singing to one of his victims That's so eerie.
And it's not like one in particular, it's just in general.
It was written before Ridgway was arrested.
So they didn't even know who he was yet, but they were just writing it for the Green River Killers victims.
And the singer wrote, the news definitely made the distinction that these women were sex workers.
In fact, they didn't talk about them like they were women much at all, which made me feel really bad for the women.
These women's lives just never seem that important.
They weren't really made that important on the news.
It was all about fear. I guess this song is basically me thinking, what are their lives?
What would their families do? And in it, like, one of the lyrics in it that, like, gave me chills, was she writes, when speckled fronds raise round your bones, who took the time to fold your clothes?
And it's like her being like their people.
Like someone took the time to take care of them at one point.
Like, maybe think of them that way. Family, parents and everything.
Yeah. And also, I think that he was arrested. not very long after the song was released, like maybe a few weeks, maybe a few days.
And she said Necco case. Is it Necco case or Nico case?
Necco case, right? I think it's Necco. Well, we're about to find out from someone.
We'll find out, yeah. Alexa pronounced it Nico.
Nico case. All right, we've been wrong. Well, Nico case.
Nico. In any Echo case. No, but she apparently... So he was arrested, like... maybe a few weeks after the song came out and she apparently just like burst into tears because it was like, She said that like a weight was lifted off her shoulders and she was able to start a new chapter of her life.
And I remember when I read it, I did think like, I didn't disregard it, but I was like, wow, that seems sort of dramatic.
But then I did, like, not... not just centered around me, but my only frame of reference was that arson experience.
And it's like, I can only imagine the low level stress for year after year after year, how that really does eat away at you.
And when something like that is like, It is removed.
I can totally imagine that being a new chapter of your life starting up.
Well, I wonder too, if she probably thought she was going to get some kind of relief writing it.
And then she felt somewhat relieved. And then when he was caught, she was like, oh, this is what relief feels like.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I was going to say the act of writing the song probably took her into that place.
Absolutely. And if she was just like it was a thing in her life, I probably like. sitting there writing the lyrics, thinking about it.
She probably had to do research and then she had to have the recording sessions.
She's singing those lyrics over and over again.
So she probably was like in that song and in that world so deeply at that moment right yeah and just that lyric like when freckled fronds rise around your bones it's like you're just picturing this woman like somebody's daughter like somebody who was somebody you know somebody who's somebody laying in a ditch somewhere alone turning into bones while, like, fronds raise around her because time is just going by and no one can find her.
And to get to that point too, she obviously had to think about their final hours.
Like she had to do like A, B, and C. Oh, of course.
And I mean, just thinking about like, we were just talking about the Morse murders, like...
That was four episodes. So it was weeks of research.
And I remember like even John, at one point, my husband was like, when is this over like he was like are you almost done with this case because i was like john was like that how about me I was like, why do I have to listen to this?
At night, I would literally be like, can I just tell you one more thing?
And he was like, please stop. I can't do these.
And I'm like. I can't have this just on me.
I need to tell you about it. I would say that was probably one of the most haunting cases we've ever done.
One of the heaviest. Because we usually don't do cases where the victims are children in that one.
So it's like writing a song. I feel like it's such an emotional thing, I imagine.
I've never written one, but... I feel like it is.
So having to go deep into something like that on top of it must be hard. insane yeah where she's like in the car on the way to be murdered yeah all of that But that's a whole thing, a murder ballad.
Yeah. It's been around for forever. I know.
There's some really crazy ones. crazy I was gonna say too like thinking about somebody listening to that song and then becoming obviously you said like it was a few weeks before he was found but before you had said that i was picturing like hearing that song and listening to it And then ending up being one of the victims and realizing in that moment.
Yeah. because that's happened before where I think we did like the Willie Pickton case.
He was a serial killer in Canada and he really, he, like, attacked sex workers, indigenous women, and a lot of them knew about the serial killer that was killing like one of their own and their friends and family.
And they'd be saying it like, I don't want to be the next one.
I don't want to be the next one. And some of them became the next one. and it was like oh that just brings it to such like a like a visceral place like it's just oh Yeah, when you kind of feared it was coming and then it's here.
It's like living your worst nightmare. Yeah.
Totally. Oh, my God. Well, that was that.
That's great. So maybe we'll do a part two of these fun things.
People are like, please don't. Please don't.
More murder ballads soon. We'll bring back Ben and Ronnie and make them sit through this again.
More watch what works. No, this was great.
I mean, it was really cool to talk about something different.
Yeah. It was totally different. I know that's kind of what we keep making jokes the whole time, but that's just what we do.
I mean, we'd make them like literally if someone had a gun to our head, we'd be making a joke.
Of course. Well, it's never at the expense of anyone else. you do that's the thing it's what gallows humor is just gonna say that oh my god But thank you guys so much for doing this with us.
This was so much fun. Thank you so much for having us.
It's been really great to meet you guys and talk to you in real life.
It's been so fun. It's been a blast. Do you have anything coming up?
Do you want to plug anything you can plug away?
You know, we just have our podcast, Watch Where Crap Ends.
It's available on all podcast platforms.
And then, you know, we can follow us on social media.
On Instagram, we're at Watch What Crappens.
And on Twitter, we're at What Crappens. Ronnie is at Ronnie Karam on Twitter and Instagram and I'm at ben mandelker on twitter and instagram and you know at some point we're going to start doing some live shows again.
We used to tour very frequently pre-pandemic, so keep an eye out for that.
We haven't announced anything. I think we're starting up around when you guys are starting back up.
Let's hope. It looks like. When we hope we're starting back up.
In the same city. Actually, we had tickets to your Wilbur show.
We did. My husband got me them for my birthday or something.
Well, the Wilbur show isn't canceled. It's only postponed.
So that show is going to still happen. Awesome.
We can go to each other's Wilbur shows. We definitely have to try and meet up. in the flesh either on, that sounds so gross to say on the show, meet up in the flesh.
I don't mean it in a murdery way, but yeah, either if we're in the same town or, you know, when we come to your town or whatever, let's go hang out.
Let's do it. we have to yay absolutely we'll keep you updated as soon as we can say anything about when our Wilbur show is rescheduled and when any of our shows are rescheduled, we absolutely will, you know, we're going to shut them out.
Freaking COVID, man. It's like right when you think...
We started getting the schedule back together and then like, guess what?
Delta was like, bitch, nevermind. Yep. yeah so it messes everything i know and kids can't get vaccinated yet so that's the reason we're like really on hinge because all mine are under five So they're nowhere near the vaccination stage.
Oh, my God. That's a real problem. That's what we're hoping, but it's so scary.
It is very scary. I know. Well, health first before any live shows.
Exactly. That's what we're holding out.
Until then, we'll just be on the internet.
Exactly. We'll just be with each other from time to time.
Yeah. We'll play live audience sound effects to make it sound good.
Yeah, right? We're going to have to at some point.
I'm not above that. We've done it actually.
We've done it. not even i love it amazing all right guys well thank you so much thanks guys so much bye All right, guys.
Well, we hope you enjoyed that different episode.
We've definitely never talked about true.
Well, we've mentioned true crime songs before, but we've never actually gone into them. deep dive into it yeah it was interesting to do it's really crazy to see what people write about and to say the least And Ronnie and Ben are so amazing.
They are so amazing. funny i love them with like my like more than my entire heart this could have been like 10 hours and we would have been fun.
Legit. But I highly recommend again that you go listen to Watch What Crappens if you love Bravo and if you love people that are really funny yeah but it's the perfect pair yeah and in the meantime we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it Weird, but not so weird that you write a song about a murderer because yeah, like maybe don't do that.
Don't do it. Yeah. Thank you. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
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