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I have been listening to the Martha's Vineyard Beach and Book Club, which actually Elena recommended to me.
She did not listen to it, but she said, girl, this title sounds so you.
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We'll see you next time. available on qualifying orders retail sales only some exclusions apply see store for details Hey weirdos, I am Ash.
And I'm Elena. And this is Morbid in the Morning.
🎵 It's in the morning. We even have coffee and everything.
I kind of feel like we're on like a talk show.
Yeah, and my mug is a Today Show with Willie Geist mug.
Mine says, I put a spell on you. It sings it like that.
It does. It says it just like that. Coffee is cool. now that I just took a giant gulp to get my larynx ready for this.
My larynx. is that that's in your voice canal i don't know your voice i'm just kidding but i took a big gulp and it was cold Mine is too.
It's like ice cold. I just took a sip and was like, woo, all right, I'm awake.
It's weird. This is, I don't know why I'm talking about this, but I love iced coffee.
But when I take a sip of coffee that's supposed to be hot and it's ice cold, I find it disgusting.
I think everybody can agree with that. Yeah, that's a weird humanity thing.
Well, you weren't intending to have iced coffee. didn't intend that set your intentions set your intentions everybody for hot coffee tell your coffee what the fuck is up tell your coffee to get with it Get with it.
Alina's just in a giant white robe right now.
I sure am. She's like leaning back and she goes, get with it get with it you're just stupid i am But I loved you.
I truly am. No, you're not at all. It was just like stupid funny.
All right. Welcome. We were talking and we were like, what's going on in the true crime world?
There's a lot of shit going down. There's like a lot of random headlines and stuff going on.
Yeah. But it was like everything that's happening, we need to make a full case.
So I think we're just going to get right into it. into this.
Because I'm more... The one thing I need to hear more about is the Summer Wells case.
And every time I check... there's really nothing happening.
Yeah. There's been a couple small updates, but nothing about where she is. yeah like basically it's it's really just the same the same of the same of the same every single day The only thing that we can hope is that because there's really no updates is that they're keeping it quiet And they always say keeping it close to their chest because they're hopefully close and have some kind of leads.
I hope so, because that case is really... really bumming me out if you don't know that case just google summer wells yeah and it's We also did a Patreon episode.
Yeah, we did a Patreon episode about it.
And I think everybody has their opinions on what actually happened here.
But I need answers. I need answers. Because there's always three sides to a story.
Yours, mine, and the truth. truth and I would really like to know the truth I just want to know and I want her found I know she's just I just want her found, no matter what needs to happen here.
She was only five years old. She's this beautiful little thing.
She's so fucking cute. And it's like, I just want her found.
No matter what way it is, she needs to be found.
And give at least any part of the family closure.
Yeah. It's bumming me out. It's a huge bummer.
But again, there's no update. I keep hoping that someday we're going to get on here.
And be like, guess what? And be like, guess what?
There's an update. We like, here you go.
And like, I want her to be. Oh, I would love that.
I mean, the odds of that, it's been weeks and weeks and weeks at this point.
But you know what's happened. It's happened.
It's happened. That's for sure. But statistically, it's not a great outlook, but.
World will maintain hope. Yeah. Well, with that being said, I think we should just hop right into today's episode.
Let's do it. This week, I am going to bring you down one of the wildest rabbit holes that we've ever launched ourselves into.
Whoa, you just... really sold that i sold it and i promise i'm gonna deliver you gotta bring it i'm gonna bring it bitch So it's like kind of like a case within a case.
And in the true crime world, this case is known as the Burdington murder.
Erdington murders. Erdington murders. Now, Erdington is like a place in the UK.
Okay. Okay, UK. Okay, UK. I debated on telling you right up front the wild similarities between the two cases that we're going to go over.
But I think it's going to be more fun to kind of realize them yourself as it unfolds and then we'll go over them at the end.
Okay. All right. So let's get into it. The two victims that we're gonna cover today are Mary Ashford and Barbara Forrest.
And we're gonna start with Mary Ashford.
I see your face moving over there. I want you to not know this.
I don't think I know it. It feels a little familiar, but it might just be...
When I was reading it, I feel like Mary Ashford feels like a name that you've heard before.
Yeah. Well, Mary Ashford was a 20-year-old girl.
She was living with her uncle named John Coleman in Erdington in 1817.
So some time ago, we put you in your time machine and you went all the way back.
You know, I love an 1800s situation. I really do.
So mostly everyone in town knew who she was.
Like everybody in that area knew everybody.
It was like a working town and everybody really liked her.
On May 26th, which was Wit Monday. Do you know what Wit Monday is?
No, what is it? I had never heard of it.
It's a Pentecostal holiday. And it's to recognize the Holy Ghost's arrival on Jesus's disciples.
Oh. I think it's like when the Holy Ghost became a thing.
That's intense. Yeah. It truly is. I feel like there's days for every step of that situation.
I think there is. Yeah. So this was like a special day. and Mary and her friend named Hannah Cox had plans to go to a dance being held at the Tyburn House, which was a local inn, And it was also known as the Three Tons Inn.
So I don't know if it changed names at some point, but it's known as both.
Okay. But the dance was to celebrate the holiday.
So that morning, Mary dropped a change of clothes off at Hannah's home in Erdington. and then made her way to Birmingham to sell some goods at the market.
Okay. that she lived with, she was like a maid for him basically, like a housemaid.
And she would go to the market and sell like his dairy products or anything like produce and everything like that.
That fun stuff. Yeah. She was just selling all the stuff.
Just selling all the stuff. Selling all the goods that you need to make dinner.
Yeah. So she spent most of the day there at the market and then she made her way back to Hannah's house and got there around 6 p.m.
They got ready together for the dance and they were like super excited.
Even though earlier that week, Mary had told Hannah's mother that she quote, had bad feelings about the week to come.
Ooh, it was ominous reminiscence. Now, everyone who knew Hannah and Mary, they both were described as being like super pretty, outgoing girls.
Like I said, everybody pretty much knew Mary.
Everybody also knew Hannah because they were like sisters.
Okay. So throughout the night, it wasn't super weird that they danced with a few different suitors.
Suitors. I love the word suitors. I don't know why.
For most of the night. Hannah danced with a man named Benjamin Carter.
Now, in some sources, I read that he was her fiance.
And then in other sources, I read that he was just a man's.
Oh, wow. What different ends of the spectrum?
Seriously. Betrothed or a complete stranger.
Literally. Could be the same. Who knows?
It was the 1800s. There's a lot of circumstances here where it's like it says one thing and it also says five other things.
So I just went with what I saw the most.
1800s. Yeah. And what I saw the most was that she just met him that night.
Okay, cool. So she was dancing with Benjamin.
Benjamin. Benjamin. Benjamin. and mary danced with a man named abraham thornton oh my god i love all these people the names right So around midnight, the four of them all left together.
But down the line, they split up. And you're never supposed to do that.
Hannah ended up walking home alone, which is something you're also never supposed to do.
Don't do that. Benjamin either went back to the dance or went home, depending on the source you look at.
Who knows? 1817. But one thing is for sure, Mary and Abraham stuck together.
Okay. And when Mary finally got back to Hannah's to change into her work clothes, because remember, all her clothes were at Hannah's house.
Oh, yeah. She got back at 4 in the morning.
Damn. So she had herself a night. I didn't know people partied like that in the 1800s.
Neither did I, and I felt so seen. I was like, yes, girl, go to a dance, like be young and getting it and then go to work at four.
I've never gone to work at four in the morning, but.
But you know. But she, Mary told Hannah that she and Abraham Thornton Thornton.
It's like Thornton. I keep thinking you're going to say Thornberry.
Oh my God, I want to say Thornberry. Like Nigel Thornberry or something was part of this.
Yes. Tim Curry was part of this. I keep picturing Nigel Thornberry every time you say it.
Please continue to do so. Please do so.
Please continue to do so. But Mary told Hannah that she and Abraham Thornton. had spent the rest of the night together, but that he was heading back home now.
And Hannah said that Mary seemed to be in a pretty good mood, if you know what I mean.
Oh, so she was like Ron Swanson when he wears his red shirt.
Yes, exactly. A little something like that.
Mary was like in a hurry, I think. I don't know if she was like getting to work or if she was in a hurry to like get some sleep.
I don't know what she was up to. She was going to be spending the night at her grandpa's house not far.
So she left quickly after changing. She took her party clothes with her. and she was seen walking by a few witnesses.
At 4.15 a.m., a man named Joseph Dawson, which I feel like there's always a man named Joseph Dawson in the 1800s oh yeah we all know a name man named joseph dawson i feel like you see shit i think so he's always seeing shit and he did he saw mary walking he saw her walking And then 10 minutes later, another man, Thomas Broadhurst, said that he also saw her walking.
They said she was walking alone down Belle Lane, which made sense because she had told Hannah she was going to go to her grandfather's house and he lived on Belle Lane.
Okay. But what was interesting to me was that any witness who saw her between 3 and 4.30 said that she was alone. and that she seemed to be in a hurry and was walking very quickly. so nothing obviously seemed to be wrong when she got to Hannah's like Hannah said she was in good spirits and everything but then it's like those two witnesses that saw her after like really noted that she was walking quickly and in a hurry so i'm like like was she just late for work I don't know if she was late for work or then you kind of wonder, like, did she feel like she was being followed? maybe i don't know i initially my my gut feeling was she's late for work That's what I felt.
Yeah, you never know. But it would be more than four hours before Mary was seen again.
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The sale ends 831. Don't miss it. So around 8 a.m. on May 27th in what would later become Pipe Hayes Park, a factory worker named George Jackson stumbled across a crime scene.
Now, a lot of the sources that I saw said that he was actually the one to find Mary's body, but it's not true.
That's like falsely reported because I found this wicked old newspaper with his testimony in it.
And he said that he found the bloody clothing in and then went to the nearest house to get help but he never actually saw the body because he had to get to work he was like i had to go He's like, you know, I found this bloody clothes, but I got to clock in.
I can't be late. I'm sorry. I was late last week.
I'm going to get suspended. I'm going to get canned, Tom.
I'm going to give my family bread. Yeah, you know.
Come on. You got to think of number one.
He did. So he had to get to work, but he got some other people and, you know.
He was actually on his way to work when he found what was the bonnet, a pair of shoes, and the bundle of clothing belonging to Mary. and it was bloody he looked closer and realized that one of the shoes was covered in blood Now these were new shoes.
Mary had gotten these for the dance. Oh, that's sad.
Now when help arrived, Mary Ashford's body was found.
She was only... 500 yards away from her house, like her own house.
Her arms were severely bruised and she was laying in a pool of muddy water.
Like shallow muddy water. It was later determined that her cause of death was drowning in the shallow water and And also that she had been sexually assaulted before being killed.
Wow. Now, so they were able to determine that she drowned because they found duck weeds in her stomach.
And I just found that really impressive for 1817.
That is. I thought that was like really interesting.
Yeah, look at forensic pathology. I'm saying.
I mean, it quickly goes downhill. Okay, well, we'll give them that for a second.
Here's the shining moment. You're welcome.
Knock you off the pedestal now. Enjoy that.
So quickly, the police found out that the last person Mary had been seen with, other than when she stopped at Hannah's house, was Abraham Thornton.
Ugh. So he was brought in for questioning, and he could not believe it.
He offered up to the investigators that he indeed had been with Mary that night and that they did have consensual sex together. but that afterwards he either walked her directly to or halfway to Hannah's house.
Again, depending on the source, not like an inconsistency in the story.
He waited for her to come back, but she never returned, so he just headed home.
And remember, Hannah said that when Mary was there, She said that Abraham had headed home.
Oh, she said like I hung out with him, but he's on his way home now. oh okay but then he said that he was waiting for her and then he headed home So it was strange.
Maybe she didn't realize that he was waiting for her.
Yeah. She never returned. He goes on his way.
Now, there are three witnesses that corroborated his ally, I was going to say.
His ally. His alibi. one of which was a man named John Hayden.
He said that he talked to Thornton. Thornton for close to 20 minutes around the time that Mary would have been killed.
And it was two miles away. So they said it would have taken the average person half an hour to walk that far.
And it would have taken him like an hour to do everything that was done to her.
So it didn't really make any sense if that was true, if he had stopped to talk to him.
He would have had to sprint. Literally. Yeah.
Thornton himself was not only shocked that Mary had been killed, but also that he was even being accused of this. because he was from the area and known around town as a farmer and a bricklayer.
A lot like some people thought of him as rude or immature, but no one necessarily expected him to be the guy to like snap and murder his own date.
And Erdington was just a really safe, quiet town full of just honest workers back then.
And like I said, they all knew each other.
And nothing like this had happened before.
This was very unprecedented. When he was questioned, he told the police, I was with her until four o'clock this morning.
However. Saucy. Allegedly. they found blood on him and the footprints leading back to his father's house. that looked similar to the ones that were spread about at the crime scene.
Ooh, Thornberry. But I also feel like Thornberry.
I also feel like back then, a lot of footprints probably looked alike.
I was going to say, how many different patterns?
I literally thought you were going to just say exactly what I wrote.
Because I was like, how many different pairs of boots were there to offer back then?
Like how many different patterns on the bottoms of boots were there?
Right. Like there is probably one bootmaker in town.
Literally one. Like I'm pretty sure. And all they knew how to do was like, they were like, we figured out how to make a trend.
So we're just making this one tread. That's all you get.
But I guess you kind of have to give it to them back then.
The investigators, they were trying. That's all they got.
That's all they got. You gotta at least say, sure.
Yeah, we tried. The same boot. They also laid boards over the prince so that they wouldn't be disturbed.
Wow. They really tried their best to preserve the crime scene back then.
All right, so why are we knocking them off a pedestal?
They're doing great. Yeah, you know, I mean...
They're trying. They're doing great. But it's like they're just finding these footprints and they're like, must be his footprints.
I mean, it's the 1800s. Yeah, okay. I'm giving, no, forensics for the win.
Okay. Early forensics. All right. Good for them.
I mean, I gave it to them. You did. I thought they were going to really fuck this up though.
No, they really didn't like fuck it up wicked bad.
Cool. It gets wild though. But so even studying the scene alone, they were able to determine that whoever did this likely snuck up on Mary and had probably been in the field waiting for her.
Because remember, that wasn't a park yet.
It would later become the park. Yeah. The footprints leading up to the scene were normal strides and there was a pair.
They thought a woman's and a man's pair leading up to the scene.
But the ones leading away from the scene made it appear that the person responsible for this like dumped her body and then ran.
Because the strides were like much further apart.
Again, I say this is pretty impressive for 1800.
I thought so too. I agree. So they kept looking for leads, but Abraham Thornton was their only strong lead, so they had to go with him. now his trial started August 8th and it was a hot commodity like hot ticket hot ticket even though it started like really early in the morning which for me is 7 a.m.
There were already huge crowds of people waiting outside to hear what was going to happen, like hundreds of people just outside this courthouse.
Oh, yeah. Everyone had their own opinion about what the verdict would be.
This was the hot goss. I would have loved it back then. i know when it was like totally fine to do that yeah exactly like it's a different time i would have lived We would have been there like fanning ourselves.
Oh, yeah. You'd have like a black parasol.
Oh, hell yeah. Big ass dress. Hell yeah.
I would... have cute shoes. I'd have some kind of notebook.
I'd be writing it all down. Yeah. And I'd just be there.
So I could write a book about it under a pen name and pretend I was a man and sell it that way.
I love that you're really going for it here.
You have huge aspirations. I do. My Gemini ass just wants to gossip with the townspeople.
I'd be like, girl, did you hear that? Like he also said this.
Okay. Because there was also some things that they heard that he said, and it became relevant in the trial, which we'll get there.
So everybody's waiting outside. They're like, what the hell is going to happen with this?
And inside, Mary Ashford's family was waiting to hear the verdict.
Now they themselves believed that Abraham Thornton was guilty, mainly because he was the only subject. suspect in the case and the police like hardly looked at anybody else.
Makes sense. The prosecution begged the jury to find Thornton guilty.
I was reading like some of the transcripts in a newspaper and I was like, wow, the things that they're going for.
They said they had a shit ton of evidence on their side, but literally all of it was circumstantial.
Yeah. Like, obviously. I was gonna say. They said that they learned in their investigation that other attendees of the dance heard Thornton stay. that he was determined to have sex with Mary because he had already slept with her sister three times.
And he said he would sleep with her, though it shall cost me my life.
What? Which like, number one, objection.
Is that not hearsay? Yeah. And number two, why would it cost him his life like to sleep with her?
I didn't even understand. Well, I imagine he's saying, I think I'm going to have to rape her and that's going to cost me my life because they're going to catch me. okay well that's what I'm thinking at least that's wild I mean you're like oh shit he could have just courted her it kind of sounds like he did try to court her I don't know I don't know.
I wasn't there. I was not there. You know what?
I'm claiming I was there. I wasn't there. now it only took the jury six minutes to deliberate six minutes it took them six minutes because before they went to do so The judge reminded them that most of this evidence that they heard throughout the trial was circumstantial, like at best.
Some of it was barely circumstantial. Yeah, some of it was just like, we made it up.
We pulled that out of our butthole that day.
Now, when they came back to read the verdict, it was announced to the court that Mr. Abraham Thornton was found not guilty.
I figured. But Mary's brother William was absolutely absolutely outraged and immediately demanded that there be a second trial.
Now, needless to say, this was like way before double jeopardy became a thing.
Yeah. And back then, there were laws in place that said the jury's verdict could be appealed by a family member of a victim.
Really? Those laws actually changed two years later in 1819. but not before Abraham Thornton's second trial.
That's crazy. Crazy. And my bananas. That reminds me of the Rebecca Nurse trial in the Salem Witch Trials.
Yeah. She was acquitted. And then they were like, redo.
She was found not guilty. And then Ann Putnam got real pissed about it and was like, damn it.
And then they were like, oh, okay, you're guilty.
Like, That's a direct quote from the transcripts.
How do you spell that? I don't even know.
But it wasn't up to me. George Corwin was the one who had to transcribe it, not me.
That's true. Or John Corwin, excuse me. uh yeah she was found not guilty and then like that's wild to me that back then that was just like you're found not guilty and someone's like wait a second that person pisses me off and they're like oh i'm sorry okay let's redo this no let's find them guilty now and hang them right This is a person.
I know. It's interesting that they just were like, yeah, let's redo that in the Rebecca Nurse trial.
Because in this one, there was a law that the family member could be like, no, let's redo it.
But it's also like. But that's almost the same.
It is. It's like the accused. was the one or the accuser was the the afflicted girls if you will yeah are the ones saying like I'm pissed about this, so maybe it's the same kind of ruling.
But it's just like the... obviously they're gonna be pissed about it if it doesn't go their way well also it was 1692 it wasn't 1800 so yeah They probably had more lax rules.
Yeah, they probably just didn't have a rule about that.
Like a cow could come in off the street and be like, They were like, ooh, sorry, we got it wrong.
You're a witch. Yeah, sorry. They had to have the second trial because William was like, nope, redo. oh wow he put his thing down flipped it and reversed it i mean good for him for giving a shot yeah you know shoot your shot So three months later on November 17th, 1817, that was when the second trial took place.
This time, Lord Ellenborough was the one to oversee the trial.
Lord Ellenborough. Lord Ellenborough. I'm Lord Ellenborough.
Oh, I like that. I love it so much. Now, he was the one to oversee the trial, which took place at the court of the king's bench.
Hell yeah. And like in the newspaper, it was like the King versus Mr. Abraham Thornton.
Oh, I love that because that's always like, you know, like this person versus the crown.
Yeah. You know, like in Canada and shit.
Yep. That's really cool. I love it. I don't know why I love it.
I think it's cool because that doesn't happen here.
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Abraham Thornton had had enough of this bullshit and he was ready to prove his innocence on his own.
And he said to Lord Ellenborough, he said, I am not guilty and I will defend myself with my body. with my body.
He also at that same time allegedly put a leather glove over his head as a throwing of the gauntlet But what did that mean exactly?
Abraham Thornton was requesting a trial by motherfucking battle, bitch.
Hell yeah. I was just going to say, please tell me it's a duel.
He was requesting a trial by battle. Now, even better...
Lord Allenborough was allowing it. He was like, let's do this.
Oh my God, I love this. This is so Game of Thrones.
It's my favorite. literally said that later.
Literally Game of Thrones. It is. So the case actually made legal history because trials by battle like they don't even know if they actually ever happened before this.
Wow. Like other than like in the medieval times.
But they definitely stopped happening like a long time before 1817.
Yeah. Now, if you haven't seen Game of Thrones, essentially what this man's was proposing was that he and William Ashford fight to the death or until one of them was no longer able to fight.
And then the person standing wins. So if William was able to incapacitate Thornton, then he would be held responsible for the murder and be hanged.
And if not, he would have to incapacitate William to walk free.
Wow. Yeah. A trial by battle trial. I also don't really know about the whole leather glove over his head.
I saw that in one source, but I had to throw it in there because it's like...
Oh, I hope he did. What if that happened?
I hope so. If he took a leather glove and was just like whack.
No, he put it over his head. Oh, he put a glove over his head?
Unless, well, actually, maybe it was like the thing that you just said, like he raised it over his head and then he whacked it.
I was thinking that. You put it over his whole ass head.
It's good that I have you to walk me through life, huh?
Well, shit. It would just take a second to really stretch it over his head.
It's literally. like someone's stretching like a balloon over there it's just like i just i don't know what it is Battle.
I will defend myself with my body. I took it as. taking it like throwing it over his head and like throwing it on a table yeah because that's like throwing the gauntlet yeah you get it It's fine.
Elena had to explain a lot of Game of Thrones to me as well, so whatever.
Now, so are we gonna have this trial by battle?
What do you think? God, I hope so. I wish.
William Ashford was like, literally, go fuck yourself.
I mean, I would too. I'm not doing that.
No, he was vehemently opposed to this whole trial by combat thing and he refused to take part in this tomfoolery.
Now, I don't know if it was like that the idea was like so preposterous to him and that's why he didn't go for it.
Like he was like, we like, that's not a thing.
We don't do that. We don't do trial by combat.
We don't do that anymore. Or if it had something to do with Thornton's size, because...
I couldn't find much to describe William's build, but Thornton was described as over six feet tall and thick.
Like they literally described him as thick, like in 1800s newspapers, like actually.
Every source that I read referred to him as having thick features.
They said that he had legs like tree trunks and a very large neck.
Oh shit. They also described him when he like appeared in court for the first time.
And they were like, he had become, they used a different word for like.
He's like a behemoth. Basically, they were like he had become very large.
So he's not Nigel Thurman. thornberry no he's in fact the opposite he's literally the hulk I suppose William was probably like, A, I'll lose.
This is stupid. And B, you're gigantic and I'll just lose.
Right. there's really no well then also like my parents will have lost two children exactly like this is not gonna happen So when William denied the trial by combat idea, the decision then went back to Lord Ellenborough. who said that Abraham Thornton was free to go.
He was not guilty of the murder of Mary Ashford.
Wow. So basically like William just like forfeited and then because of that Thornton was able to walk free.
Which is scary because now he's like shown his cards to Thornberry there.
Because now he's being like, I wanted you hanged and I tried to get you hanged again, but now you get to walk free and just... walk among me.
And like, what if you did actually kill my sister?
One, you're pissed because I tried to get you hanged when you were found not guilty first.
Yup. And if you did kill my sister, I have just accused you of that again.
So it's like, whoa. Well, shit. I'd be like, yeah, I'm going to move.
I'm going to get out of here. I don't want to live here.
Funny you say that. But before we get there.
Ellenborough received a lot of criticism for not only letting Thornton off, but also entertaining the idea of a trial.
Yeah. Everyone was like, are you good, sir?
We can't do that anymore. He's Littlefinger. i feel i think you're right yeah he just wanted it for his entertainment but to this day no other person has been tried for mary's murder and there were really no other Now, while Thornton was still alive, he also faced a lot of criticism in the community.
And eventually things got so bad for him that he had to move to America.
Wow. And it took him two attempts to do that, actually.
Wow. The first time that he tried to get on a ship with other men sailing to America, they found out who he was and they were like, get the fuck off this ship.
It's like you are not coming anywhere with us.
My ship. Get the fuck off my ship. Get off.
Thank you. This is my daddy's yacht. I'm just kidding.
They were like, no, you can't come with us.
You can't sail with us! You can't sail with us!
But then the second time he apparently was able to get away.
And apparently he lived, like, a really great life in America.
He became, like, prosperous here. Yeah, live the American dream, man.
Yeah, and he, like, got married and, like, I think he might have had kids.
Wow. So like that's good if he isn't a murderer.
But if he did, then I hope he stubs his toe every day in the afterlife.
Yeah, that sucks. I mean, I'm hoping that he was innocent.
I mean, that sucks that he got like run out of his home.
He does. He seemed to have thrived here.
So if he was innocent, good for him. And if not, that's the worst.
Yeah, then go fuck yourself. Yeah. That sucks.
I agree. Wow. So I told you there were two murders.
So we're going to have to move to the second one.
So we're going to move to Barbara Forrest.
Barbara was born to parents Gordon and Margaret.
In 1974, she was 20 years old and she was working as a In some sources, it said that she was working as a nurse at the Pipe Hayes Children Home.
And then in other sources, it said that she was kind of like almost working like as a DCF worker is what you would say now.
She was like a social worker. A social worker, exactly.
So I don't know if maybe she was doing both.
Okay. Working with children, probably. Working with children, no matter what.
It's interesting because it was so much easier to find information about the 1817 case than the 1974 case.
That's funny. Even on the newspaper archives and everything, I was like, what?
But where did all the info go? Like, why do I know more about the 1800s?
I'm confused. So just like Mary Ashford, she also had an uneasy feeling about, excuse me, had an uneasy feeling leading up to her murder.
And she told a coworker just 10 days before she was killed.
This is going to be my unlucky month. I just know it.
Don't ask me why. Ooh. Isn't that so strange?
Why did that happen to both of them? Oh, just wait, girl.
The universe. The universe is wildin'. So sadly, Barbara was right.
In the early morning hours of May 27th, the same day that Mary Ashford was killed and on the same holiday. which by the way, that falls on a different day every year, but it just so happens that it fell on the same day this year.
What? the year that this happened um so in the early morning hours on may 27th this time 140
57 years later in 1974, Barbara Forrest was found raped and strangled.
Her body was left in a ditch in Pipe Hayes Park and wasn't found until a week later on June 4th.
She was discovered half naked and buried with brush and bracken.
The site where Barbara's body was found was only 300 feet away from where Mary Ashford's body had been discovered.
What? Yup. Barbara's mother said of her, she was a wonderful girl.
This is the sort of thing you hear about happening and you never think can happen to you.
Whenever somebody says that, you're like, it's so true.
Because it makes it so real. Because everybody thinks that it can't happen to me.
I'm just going to read about it. It's not. that sucks it's so sad so the last anyone knew barbara was out with her boyfriend simon belcher Barbara was described as devotely religious, and she and her boyfriend Simon were both members of the St.
Mark's Lutheran Church. and actually the night before she was killed on May 26th, Simon and Barbara held the church services together that night.
Simon was actually filling in for his father, Peter Belcher, who was the church's usual minister.
So they led the services together. And after they finished the services, they decided to go to a couple of pubs and just kind of have like a night out to Yeah.
So they went to a few pubs near the center of town and they finished up the night dancing.
Wow. They went dancing. Then they decided to wrap the night up at about 1 a.m.
Simon walked Barbara to the bus stop at Colmore Circle, and that was the last time he would ever see her.
The next day was a holiday, Whit Monday, so Barbara didn't have to go into work.
But on Tuesday, she didn't show up for work and her co-workers were really concerned because she was not the kind of girl that would just not show up or not call.
So they called her family, who quickly got into contact with the police, and they were able to file a missing persons report.
Now, in the week it took to find Barbara, there were tons of flyers hung up in the area of her.
Her friends and family in the congregation that she belonged to were passing out pamphlets describing What she who like who she was, what she'd been wearing, like just any general information about her.
But for a whole eight days, there was no leads whatsoever.
Nobody knew what happened to her. Now, if Barbara had gotten on the bus that she was supposed to, it would have been bus number 67.
But no one on that specific bus remembered her even being on board that night.
So all these theories started to run wild.
Some people claimed that they saw Barbara after 1 a.m. that morning.
But that only made the investigation more difficult because like most people were like, no, we didn't see her after 1 a.m.
But then there was like a few people that were like.
I definitely did. Eyewitnesses, man. The worst.
Now, people thought it could have been possible that maybe she hitched a ride with someone. she knew after Simon dropped her off or maybe that she had been on the bus and like maybe just nobody was paying attention.
And when she had gotten off, someone had gotten a hold of her because it would have taken her the bus ride and then a short 10 minute walk to get home.
Now, she lived really close to the Pipe Hayes Park where her body was found.
And it was really close to her work as well.
And like I said, she would have had that 10 minute walk home.
Yeah. So a witness actually came forward and told police that they saw a blue car parked near the park. in the area close to where Barbara's body was discovered and close by her home and her work.
Okay. So they have like a weird vehicle sighting.
Yeah. And they assumed that whoever did this to Barbara had snuck up on her, just like Mary. and had caught her off guard somehow.
And they said they probably used some of the low hanging trees to hide under before like jumping out and snatching her. so it does make sense that maybe she was on the bus and no one saw her and in the 10 minute walk to get home that's when she okay Yeah.
Because it like it just makes the most sense.
Yeah. Like distance and area wise. Yeah.
So just thinking of somebody using the trees to hide under and just jump out and snatch you is like really fucking terrifying.
No, I hate the thought of somebody hiding in the trees.
Like the low hanging trees. I hate it very, very much.
I hate that. So they actually had one of their female officers, Linda Madison, dress in clothes similar to the ones that Barbara was wearing when she went missing, and they created an entire reconstruction of the knight. because they were just grasping at straws in this investigation.
I love when they do this. I thought that was so cool.
Yeah, they've done this in a few different cases we've covered.
And it's always like, I'm like, yeah, extra.
Right. I love that. Exactly. Now, over 100 detectives worked on Barbara's case, and the investigation was led by Detective Superintendent Mick Lenahan.
In addition to the reconstruction that they did, they were also doing door-to-door inquiries.
They were interviewing experts. anyone they had that they knew took that bus that night or just anyone that was known to be in the area.
Now, the boyfriend, Simon Belcher, was quickly ruled out as a suspect, just like he didn't fit the bill and he had an alibi.
And it took some time, but eventually by September, investigators narrowed in on a man named Michael.
Ian Thornton. Stop. 157 years later. This girl's like, I literally can't.
What? Yes. Thornton. And weirdly enough.
It's not like. I was looking on any website to find out if It's a super common last name.
And from what I saw, people were like, it's not, it's like, it's not like overly common.
Right. Exactly. Smith. exactly you're like green yeah whoa it's not an overly common last name even over there That's wild.
And weirdly enough, they weren't even related.
Like people have tried to like look into the genealogy of it and they're not related.
Wow. Crazy. So Michael and Barbara actually worked together at the same children's home and he lived on Chester Road which was not far from where her body was found.
And actually Mary had been spotted on Chester Road earlier the night that she went missing.
Wow. So they were literally walking like the same roads.
That's nuts. Now. Michael had been found with bloodstained pants and his alibi was not exactly airtight.
I couldn't find out exactly what his alibi was.
But later on in the investigation, they learned that he actually didn't have an alibi and that his mother lied for him. oh like she was like oh yeah like she corroborated his ally but she was just lying i don't know why i keep saying ally about his ally About his alibi, but she was totally lying.
Wow. Yeah. So he was charged with Barbara's murder and he was set to stand trial.
Now, the trial lasted a week, and Justice Kroom Johnson, just like the original judge in Mary Ashford's murder case, reminded the jury that the evidence in the case was purely circumstantial.
Stop. Someone please suggest a trial by combat.
It didn't happen. I'm sorry. I regret to inform you.
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Shopify.com slash listen. They came back with a not guilty verdict. which is crazy, but it's like they didn't have any DNA or anything like that back then.
So that was devastating for Barbara's family.
And Michael Thornton said of the whole debacle, quote, it's been very hard going on for the past seven months.
I knew I was innocent all along. Which it's like, of course you did.
If you didn't kill someone, you would know that all along.
Of course. But I don't know. He's like, I never doubted myself for a moment.
I know. That's good. Now, it's interesting that in Mary Ashford's case, her brother was the one that was so outraged. because it's just another way that these two cases mirror each other because Barbara's sister Erica is not so convinced that everyone did their job properly or is giving her sister's case the attention that it deserves.
Now, in 2012, she requested that the case be reopened and that DNA evidence be brought into review. like into review.
Yeah. Because I'm sure they took some kind of evidence.
They just couldn't do anything with it then.
So. the police came out with a statement saying that there was quote, no further forensic opportunities to explore.
What? And Erica was like, that's bullshit.
Like, I know that you took samples. So where the fuck are they?
There was blood on his clothes. And she said she remembered them taking samples.
Like she remembers DNA samples like being a thing.
Of course. And then she was like, so... did they get lost?
And no one will comment on whether or not they've been lost.
That bullshit story of we lost evidence is so fucking old.
It's also like, how the fuck do you lose evidence?
Stop losing fucking evidence. It's the one thing in the world you shouldn't lose, man.
That and your children. Don't lose any of that.
That too. There's a whole place for it.
There's a literal chain of custody for evidence.
You have to know where it is at every step of the way.
Yeah, literally. So where the fuck are we breaking all this chain of custody?
I don't understand. It's one of those things.
And I feel like whenever evidence is lost, it always makes you look like into that department because you're like, Why'd you lose that?
Yeah, it's because it never makes them look good.
It always makes you look shady. Like, for example, the West Memphis Police Department losing, the evidence got burnt in a fire.
The evidence that could potentially like finally acquit them completely.
Lost in a fire. Meanwhile, there's no fire.
Meanwhile, the fire department is like, yeah, there was no fire.
Imagine you say that and then the fire department is like, yo, you're on your own.
And the fire department's like, we're not helping you.
No. No, no. Yeah, that shit is pissing me off.
We'll definitely do an episode about that shit.
I'm actually really excited because i'm very angry about it i don't blame you we should do that'd be a great episode i'm like infuriated by the west memphis three case it's really infuriating and it should infuriate everybody it should okay so she was like no where the fuck is the dna like where did it go?
Now, in addition to the possibility of lost DNA samples, it took them this just happens but like i just feel bad for how this family was treated it took them four weeks to get her body back wow so it's like It took four weeks to get her back and now you're saying you don't have any DNA.
So what the fuck were we waiting for? Yeah, what was four weeks?
And then they also, the family thought that it was possible that Barbara's personal belongings that were either found on her body or like near her have also been misplaced.
Yeah. Because when they were told that there were no other forensic opportunities to explore, they were like, okay so they kind of just accepted that this wasn't going to get solved of course because you don't think you can fight that Right.
So they said, can we have the jewelry back?
Because the jewelry was really special for their family.
It had been gifted to Barbara by her godparents and it's just really meaningful of hers and it's something to remember her by and um they also asked if they could have her handbag So they were constantly ignored when they asked those questions or they were just given a go around to the that they actually had a newspaper, the Sunday Mercury, try to reach out as well.
Now, the Sunday Mercury was told that the police could neither confirm nor deny. that Barbara's personal belongings had been misplaced.
That's shameful. So you're literally telling this family, maybe, maybe we have them.
That's literally shameful. Maybe not. And when you're saying, like, I can neither confirm nor deny.
So you're saying that it's lost. You're saying you don't have it.
Like, just... don't say maybe come on and fucking say it like okay coward why don't you just say it and at that point like in 2012 her father i think was like 90
And her mother was like 88. Like they're telling this like elderly couple who lost their daughter in the most gruesome manner.
And all they want is her jewelry. Sorry, we lost her shit.
In her purse. That's all they're asking for.
And like DNA samples. And you couldn't even.
Wow. That's really shitty. It's so sad. It's so sad.
Now, still to this day, no one has been charged for Barbara's murder other than Michael Thornton, who was acquitted.
Wow. And even the prosecutor on the case later stated that there wasn't much evidence and admitted that what they did have was all circumstantial. not going to get him.
Like it shouldn't have even gone to trial.
Wow. And it sucks that like in 18, whatever, 18, 17 or whatever it was.
They did a better job. like the brother was able to just be like no no no don't like it right again one more time fell as everybody back to their places and everybody did it again.
What is it? One more time with feeling? Yeah, one more time with feeling, everyone.
Right. But then... bring it up to like two thousands here.
And the sister's like, no, you didn't do your job.
And they're like, Oh, we lost everything.
Sorry. Like, And it's like, do you know what you could have done with the fucking DNA?
Like, you could have... absolutely i mean you could have either proven that he is guilty or you could have proven that he's not and like maybe put like I mean she was raped they may have had something yeah put it through a system and found some some other case that's connected to it and put the person away oh that's infuriating it's just so like it's like do your fucking job yeah now erica later said of her sister quote barbara had more about her than i did she was more energy and drive she should have been working that weekend but for some reason she didn't i think she enjoyed doing the work she believed in helping the children on the Sunday the day before she disappeared she went for a walk with Simon and talked about what she wanted at her funeral.
We always felt that it was a strange remark for someone of her age.
Isn't that like they both had feelings? Like weird feelings, like premonitions something was going to go wrong.
And not only did Barbara say to someone, like, this is going to be a bad month, she also was telling her boyfriend what she wanted at her funeral.
Like, that's just... like the day before anything happened.
That's weird. So... Those are both of the cases.
But just to review all the similarities, it's like the key to the spot the difference.
Yeah. Both murders happened either during or right after Whit Monday in Erdington, the same place. in the same park.
Both Mary and Barbara were 20 years old.
Some actually say that they had the same birthday.
I was trying to find an obituary for Barbara, and I couldn't find one.
And none of the sources that I read said her birthday.
And same thing with Mary, but some people say they have the same birthday. that'd be crazy their bodies were only found 300 feet apart they both spent their last night dancing And both suspects in each case had the last name Thornton and both were acquitted. that's so wild 157 years apart that It's so wild.
I was reading this one thing and it was like very crazy and out there, but it was like, If people believe in reincarnation, it's like, what if Mary Ashford passed away and then came back as Barbara? and like and passed away in the same way right wow isn't that so crazy can you imagine but it's like it's so funny because it's not funny but i was just watching um fear street the first one and it's like the whole thing about like the witch and she like takes people yeah and it's like a cursed town i feel like there's some kind of curse at this park it feels that way and well and I want to go into it because along the way I was finding out that it's actually like associated with a couple of hauntings Yeah, so I think maybe like we might do like an addition to this episode and have it be all the spooky things associated with this park.
Right? That's crazy. Yeah. I love that. But I hate that.
Bananas. That is bonkers. 157 years apart.
Yeah, that's really wild. Like what? What?
I'm sorry? That's crazy. And I love that it included a trial by combat.
Yeah, I mean, that really sold it. Really crazy.
As far as I'm concerned. I actually found this when I was doing the Melanie Etienne case.
Yeah. And you remember in that case how there was like another girl named Melanie Etienne.
Yeah, that was strange. I was like on this online forum and it was like, if you think that's crazy looking at this case.
And then I started doing it and I was like, what the fuck?
And you're like, shit. We gotta cover that on Morbz.
I've never heard of this one. On Morbz. On Morbz.
The morbs. The morbs. So I hope you guys liked that one.
That was nuts. Thank you. Thank you for that.
And you didn't know it. No, I didn't. I love that.
I did not know. It's very rare that I can get a case by Elena that she has not heard of.
I really didn't know that one. So thank you for bringing it into my life.
You're welcome. The town of Agde in France is famous for sun, sand, sea and sex.
But lately, life on the coast has taken a strange turn.
The town's mayor, a respected pillar of the community, has been arrested for corruption.
His wife claims he's been bewitched by a beautiful clairvoyant.
Then there's the mysterious phone calls that local people have been getting.
I am the Archangel Michael. The whole town has been thrown into chaos.
As the mayor is unable to carry out his duties, I would like to address you all.
Legal proceedings have been initiated. Join me, Anna Richardson, and journalist Leo Schick for The Mystic and the Mayor as we investigate a story of power, corruption, Binge all episodes of The Mystic and the Mare exclusively and ad-free right now on Wondery Plus. start your free trial in apple podcasts spotify or the wondery app Well, do you want to shout out some patronuses?
Yes, I think it's time for that. I think it's time.
Look at you. I have the list up right here.
It's Heyo. It's like we planned this. It's almost like we planned this.
Did you know I was going to say that? I didn't.
Or did you know that you were going to say that?
I did not. All right, well, thank you to Janie Sweet for being such a sweet.
Janie Sweet, you're so sweet. You're such a shorty.
And then I'd like to thank Zach Tackett.
Zach Tackett. I love you. I love that your name feels good.
It's like Zach-ed. Zach Tackett. Zach Tackett.
I like it. It sounds like dang flabbit. Sure. does.
That's exactly what it feels like. I would then like to thank Flex G for being such a G and flexing on us. flex g flex g thank you yes i'm obsessed then we've got stephanie b Stephanie B., I bet you get A's.
I bet you're an all-star. In friendship.
In friendship. Then we've got Terry Jo Baker.
Terry Jo Baker. I feel like you're just like the sweetest and you make really good cookies.
And it's not just because your last name is Baker.
Okay. Not that. She just feels it. I feel like you're sweet.
But I feel like any like Joe Baker, like something Joe Baker always feels like, oh.
Yeah. And I love Joe for like a middle name or like a second name.
I love that. So thanks. Thank you. And then we have Sam Laster.
Sam Laster, you've been lasting forever.
All my life. All my life. All my life. We then have Lizbeth Corrigan.
Lizbeth Corrigan. Do you know that you have the same name as Lizzie Borden?
Lizbeth. I think the name Lizbeth is like really cool.
It's cool. Like it's different. And Corgan, like Billy Corgan.
Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. I love it. You're cool.
You're killing it. Thank you. Next up is a Natalie either cooler or color.
Probably color. How do you spell it? K-U-L-L-E-R.
Color? Color. Color. Color. Yeah. Color me.
Color me. Then we have Jamie Mathis. Jamie Mathis.
I'd like to thank you personally. Thank you so much, Jamie Mathis.
We then have Hannah Box. Hannah Box. Don't ever put Hannah in a box.
Don't you dare put baby in a box. What's in the box?
What's in the box? And I think we'll do...
Two more. How about we finish this off with Robin Dick's Robin Dix.
I love you. You are. Pick up sticks. yes yeah and then last but certainly not least thank you from the bottom of our hearts to amanda romero Amanda Romero, are you related to the horror director?
Love ya. Mean it. Thank you so much. All right, guys.
Well, we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird.
Why didn't I join? I literally don't know.
That was weird. I kept it that weird that I didn't say it.
Oh my God. I don't know why I didn't say it.
She didn't join me. Redo. Keep. Make it weird.
But not so weird that you don't tune into your own show to say the thing that you've said for the past three years of your entire life.
Wow. That was so upsetting. I don't know what the fuck happened.
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