Episode 227: The Mysterious Death of Thelma Todd (With Special Guest Cameron Esposito!)｜Morbid

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Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. I'm Alayna. And I'm the third person, Cameron Esposito.

And this is Morbid. Yes, we have a Cameron Esposito, Cameron is a comedian, an actress, an author, an activist, And she and her dog take fashion to a whole new level, I have to say.

That last part is definitely the most important.

That's what I'm working on pretty hard right now.

It's changing the world. Photographs with my dog while we wear corresponding outfits.

It's like my favorite part of the day is just like scrolling through Twitter and being like, oh my God, look at Cameron and her dog.

I loved the Easter one. Oh, thank you. You're welcome.

Yeah, Ruby's... She's game, actually. I love that.

I love that. She's game. She's... She's like, she's very good at posing and also You know, the world has been so overwhelming.

I don't know, for some, like, yes. I'm doing work and having friends and participating in a relationship.

Things are happening. I just feel like, I don't know, I just needed something that was a reasonable career goal. that felt like it was within my control and that I had nothing to do with anything.

There you go. That's like the perfect outlet.

It's impressive that you're able to do it as much as you are, though. with everything that you have going on to be able to coordinate that.

Oh my God, thank you. I'm really impressed.

Seriously. And I was saying to Cameron. And before we even started this, we're super nervous because I was saying you're the coolest and most famous guest that we've ever had on.

We are huge fans of your work. And I have to tell you, my boyfriend was like freaking out that we were going to. have you on an episode and his cousin was like ash like what the heck so I wanted to tell you they are like huge fans.

We had to shout it out. Thank you. Yeah, I'm happy to be here and I'm totally unprepared, happy and totally unprepared to be here.

That's the best way to be. I feel like that's how we show up every day to the podcast.

Super happy, enthusiastic, and like... mildly unprepared who knows what will happen just it comes out so we'll go with it yeah But when we were talking about it earlier, we were like, oh, she's like the most Hollywood person that we've had.

And then I was like, I felt like we should be talking to you like in Hocus Pocus when they're like, Hollywood.

Hollywood? It's like the first thing that came to mind.

But we won't steal your shoes. We won't do it though.

Have you seen Hocus Pocus before? framework for hollywood is hocus pocus yes absolutely hell yeah scary It is, but in the best way.

It is. So good. Billy is super scary. Oh, yeah. as a child that I mean not a child I was like probably a teen when that movie came out But that is a really scary... He's a really scary character.

He is. So... You know, it's hard to recover from that and live the rest of your life.

It's true. I remember the first time I saw it, I was like, wait, what is happening? right now like is that man coming out of the tv to come and get me like what i know my husband was not happy when i was my four-year-old i have four-year-old twins And I was like, you need to watch Hocus Pocus.

It's one of my favorite movies of all time.

And he was like, Um, I don't know if four is the correct age for that, but they powered through.

They did it. It's definitely a start on life.

And also I'm going to like humiliate myself here because I've actually I interviewed this person, I can't remember his name right now, the dude who plays Billy.

Yes, I was gonna say that. Who also plays every skinny guy.

He plays a silver surfer and he plays the gentleman from Buffy.

Oh my God. The best episode of Buffy. And he's a nice man.

Yes, he's also the guy from Pan's Labyrinth.

Oh, he's this guy? With the hands? Absolutely.

You don't need to hold your hands up. I know who you're talking about.

Yeah, just the guy from Pan's Labyrinth.

That's all you need. It's like a muscle.

A little reflex. I feel like I need to look up his name now. you do that, I'll ask you our first question.

So obviously we know that you're like Hollywood and so cool, but there is a little bit of Boston in Doug Jones.

Doug Jones. Oh, got it. No, you're good.

You're good. Yes. And also... Quick little thing about Doug Jones.

In the part where he, like, cuts his mouth open.

In Hocus Pocus. In Hocus Pocus. No. Focus, focus.

And like moths fly out. He really put moths in his mouth.

Live moths. No. one of the worst things i've ever he's so committed that's so committed yeah that's over committing i just had to give doug jones that We all did, I think.

Well, I am so sorry for interrupting. Please go back to how Hollywood I am.

Certainly. So I was saying, we know there's a little bit of Boston in you because you went to Boston College.

Yes. I did, yeah. I went to BC and then I lived in Somerville for a while when I like had my first job Right out of college, I...

I worked at Improv Asylum and Improv Boston, which are like the two improv theaters in Boston.

And Improv Boston was like for improv nerds, like everybody had gone to MIT or was currently working at an underground lab. at MIT, so there was that going on.

But then Improv Asylum was like the more commercial. uh theater and i got hired there i was i got hired there three months after graduated from college i was 21 or 22 years old.

I'd never had a job before. And I got fired I got hired right onto their main stage.

Everybody was like my age now. Like everything was like in their late 30s or 40s had been like hustling their asses off.

And you're like, hey, guys, you're like, I am a child.

I literally like. Like remember when you, the first time you had to get pulled aside by the managers who told me that it was not appropriate for me to wear crop top. you're like but why not because the audience kept being distracted And you're like, what?

That is something that would absolutely happen to me in that situation.

So relatable. I'm 22, man. I don't know what shirts are.

I'm just trying to wear a crop top and you're like this is my time to wear crop tops don't take it That's hilarious because I worked at a restaurant for like a wicked long time and like in my I think I was like 15 when I started there and I worked there till I was like 20.

But I remember I got asked to prom there and I was like taking a prom picture and I had a crop top It was not like a full crop top, but it was very cropped.

And my boss at the end of the night was like, He's like this like huge Irish dude with like a brogue and everything.

And he was like, love, I'm so happy you got asked to the prom, but I am going to have to ask you not to wear that shirt again yeah exactly so we've all been there We've all been there with the crop tops.

Seriously. So you were juggling like a lot when you were in college.

You were going to both of those improv places.

And then I read that you were wanting to get into social work and pretty much started doing that.

Yeah, I mean, I've had a... I've always been doing too many things, is one thing I would say.

I relate to that so hard. Yeah, I was going to say that to you.

Yeah, I'm from the suburbs of Chicago. Nobody was... in the entertainment industry.

So I actually didn't know this was like a real job, even when I was doing comedy professionally immediately, I still had like when I worked at those places in Boston, I worked 40 hours a week doing comedy.

I also worked 40 hours a week at a school, so I just worked 80 hours a week.

I just thought, this is how people manage their life.

So eventually I applied to social work school and I got accepted and I was going to school at the University of Chicago.

And I was also doing stand up. And there was a woman, I mean, I don't remember this woman's name, but she was a returning student.

And she was like, sweetheart, you can always be a social worker.

I don't know. You've heard that like the entertainment industry does prioritize youth.

Just FYI, if there was one of these things that if I were you, I'd be going after right now, it would be...

Duke comedy first, you have to also be a social worker at the same time.

Like this will be waiting for you. I love that.

She's like hot tip. She like Ron Swanson did.

She's like whole ass comedy. Don't half ass two things.

Thank you. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So is that kind of how you made the switch from all of that into comedy?

Yeah, I think it's just like, you know, sometimes when there isn't an exact model, I think I just needed like permission like i didn't understand what i was supposed to be doing right um So after that, then I had like, you know, more like gig type jobs while I tried to make it. financially doable to be full time in comedy.

That makes sense. I was the person that like stood outside and handed you a granola bar while also being dressed as a granola bar.

Okay. iconic so important so important that's awesome I love that so much.

I know, right? So you become like this Wellesley Established comedian.

And then you go on to write this really awesome book, which we both were kind of like reading as we're leading up to this interview.

Save Yourself came out in 2020 right at the beginning of the pandemic.

So do you think that was like a hindrance or do you think that the pandemic helped because so many people were home and like wanting to read something?

Oh, well, it certainly didn't help because my book is released week one of the pandemic.

Oh my gosh. And also, it is called Savior's Soul.

I love that so much. Which did feel like... It did feel like... funny yeah weird timing it was like kismet it's a pun yeah You know those photos sitting in your phone, the ones that make you smile every time you scroll past them?

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You know, I will say like, so it's, I feel very... grateful because it was still a best seller, which was amazing.

I mean, I want to talk you through how amazing that is.

I had a whole tour planned and the tour, all of the tickets, a book came with them.

So when The pandemic happened literally like a week before the book was going to come out.

We canceled the entire tour. We're funding all of those sales.

And so people just went on. I redirected people to buy it through indie bookstores.

And they did. So like, that's amazing because I just have to say, for people to be that kind and essentially buy it twice, that just seems, it's a lot of effort.

And then also, I mean, I do you know, in like a world where I could control things, perhaps I would have actually been able to go out on the road with it.

I had some pretty amazing experiences because I couldn't namely. i um had like heard about zoom we were not using zoom yet nobody was using zoom yet i I didn't even know it was a thing.

It was not a thing. Right. It was like no articles had been written about it.

No. And my partner... ran some Zoom events for me and I would invite people that I know and I know like really amazing, impressive authors, you know, so like Roxane Gay and Tegan Quinn and Saeed Jones were doing these panels with me.

But again, it was so early in the pandemic.

But there were like 500 terrified queers in our houses. freaked out a panel of New York Times bestselling highbrow authors.

And we got Zoom bombed and somebody shared the most hardcore pornography I have ever seen in my life.

I read like a little bit about that. I was just going to say we were going to ask you about it.

Did you feel like you were literally like, very different, but, like, you're on stage again with, like, a heckler entering the chat, but a heckler that's like, here's some hardcore porn.

She just, like, pulls up Pornhub on We didn't know what Zoom bombing was.

Nothing had been written about that yet.

So I was like... wait did i press like the whole button like is that a filter how is this even happening I did the classic thing, like the classic thing that you do when you're really good at technology, and I slammed my laptop.

You know what I mean? That is exactly what I would do.

Make it go away. I'm leaving. This will end it for everyone.

That is amazing. They did that to Britney Spears too, minus the porn, but they like went into her. um like trial for her conservatorship and like zoom bombed that how does that no one is safe from zoom bombs They Zoom bombed her conservatorship.

I'm not even kidding you. Nothing's safe.

Nothing is sacred or safe anymore. Like, that break, that is, that's... Rates?

That, like, rates? It is tough. You've got to collect yourself after that.

It is. It's a lot. It's tough to take. And also, I just don't understand.

You have to be pretty good at hacking. I can't even get onto Zoom things that I'm invited to.

I can't get onto them. when I make them.

Like I make a Zoom meeting and I'm like, how do I get in here?

How do I let other people in? I don't know how this works.

In fact, it just happened with this Zoom.

I was like Andy, like our. our manager, I was like, are you the host?

Like, how do we let everybody in? We were like, who's the host?

How do I get in? You know what? Some people have... a lot of time yeah to say the least a lot of time and no shame apparently And again, just putting it back to stand-up, I'm a huge stand-up comedy fan, like huge.

Me and my husband, our entire relationship is built on going to stand-up shows and Like, oh, my God.

Yeah. One of our first dates was at a stand up show.

Like, we've been to like hundreds. It's like their thing.

Yeah. Who did you see? I love this. Do you remember who you saw your first time?

Who was our first one? Actually, our first one was Gary Goleman.

Oh, yeah. Of course. And we saw him actually at the Comedy Cellar in New York because we got like the tickets and we happened to get put like right on the stage.

I think that same night, Amy Schumer just popped in, and we were like, oh, OK.

So I'm a huge stand-up comedy fan, and I always wanted it because I was thinking about how it must be...

That whole Zoom bombing thing is like having a heckler that can just infiltrate what you're trying to do.

So I always kind of wondered, How do you choose, like when you get a heckler at a show, because I'm sure it happens to literally everybody, How do you choose like which ones to ignore and which ones to kind of respond to or like integrate into the show a little bit?

Because I know everybody does it a little differently.

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of different factors.

One is, for instance, size of the room. Sometimes if you're playing for, say... thousands of people, there is something happening for I, as a performer, will be aware of stuff that is happening in the room that not everybody will be aware of. because like you can't hear or see everything.

Yeah. So in that case, case, it's almost oftentimes it's almost better to just try to like plow through, which is which is difficult.

It's not fun to do that. but then in a small room when everybody knows what's going on. that really requires some attention because it's distracting for the rest of the audience.

Right. Yeah, for sure. You know, the thing that is frustrating about it is that You know, I'm going to win because number one, either I'm like... better at this because this is my actual job or I can just have that person kicked out.

Right. Exactly. You know, and I I will just say it's not fun to win that way.

No. you know i think that like oftentimes like i just think i'm thinking about in terms of you know when people share video when there's like some like viral video about like Comic destroys heckler.

I just want to say that that actually feels shitty because I'm sure.

Like, it's not like what I came up there to do.

Right. And it feels like giving somebody else... control of the night, even when you win.

It's like you win, but like, But is it really a win?

Yeah, exactly. And it's like negative attention.

Yeah, I get that. It's giving them what they want a little bit.

So it's like, Because they clearly did it to get some sort of attention.

I feel like it's like dealing with trolls as creators.

Yes. deal with it like in real time, which I'm good with that.

Like, I don't know how people do it. Yeah, because we can we have like time to like take a moment and be like, OK, don't Don't respond to that.

Yeah. Like, go read a book. I don't know.

Like, go pet a dog. Like, have a moment.

Because I know when we've, like, just something to make you happy, like, because I know when we have responded to people immediately afterwards, I'm like, I feel great.

Gross. Yeah. You know, like I don't feel good about that.

It didn't. Oh my God. So, but you're like, you have to do it literally in the moment, right? which I'm always like, oh, I cannot do that.

Yeah, it's not, it's not the best. But I mean, you know.

But it's part of the job, I suppose. I was going to say it comes with the territory.

Yeah, it does. It's also... i don't know i mean like ugh i'm just like thinking about the guy that does this and i like uh, like we get it.

I, you feel threatened. Like I understand.

Cause that's where, Not even trying to hit on your girlfriend.

I don't know. It's just... Sorry, you feel that way.

You're like, you bought her these tickets.

I'm confused. This is more about you guys than it does about me.

Well, just to take it back to your book really quick, because I loved. your book.

So I loved your book. I was laughing out loud.

And there was one thing that i just like couldn't stop thinking about so it was the story that you were telling that you were walking through your neighborhood i think it was like recently when when you had written the book.

Oh yes. And you said somebody yelled something really nasty at you.

And I love that you were like, I just put a little bit of dog poop on their driveway.

Yeah. But then you talked about how you relayed that story to like, know, your friends and some family and like it got easier to relay each time and then you wrote a joke about it.

And you said you shared the story as a person first and a comic second.

And I loved thinking about it that way because as like a fan of stand-up comedy, I've always kind of thought like...

Is that how jokes come about? Does it always evolve that way for you?

Is that kind of like a rare thing? No, I mean, you know, a lot of that.

So, yeah, that was a story about like I got called a dyke on the street in my neighborhood and.

Um, This is, I will speak on behalf of all stand-up comics, some of whom might not even know that this is Pisco.

I really believe that the reason that we do this job, the reason I did this job, is like, you know, there was a time in my life when I didn't feel heard and I didn't feel safe when I was like a goony kid.

And so I learned how to win people's acceptance and affection by making them laugh.

And then also it's a way of sort of pushing back on like societal injustice, but also like personal injustice that that sort of hides the fact that the comic is hard. hurt, like we're hurt.

We're just hurt people. Everybody's hurt.

Yeah. We're just hurt. And so the joke is really like, here's how you've treated me.

Here's how I want to be treated. often also why this is what like when, you know, the straight cis white dude is like cancel culture is coming for me.

It's like, No, some of the stuff that's been hurting you is that other people now want space and you feel hurt. that like a trans woman wants to be seen as a woman that hurts you because you've had 100% of the power and now you feel threatened.

And you're showing yourself. It's like the cancel culture.

It's not that... you're just receiving feedback that people think you actually still have more power than this person.

And so anyway, I just say all of that to say that like, I think I just got to a place in my life where I was so good at using stand up to sort of like deflate my feelings of being hurt, but my friends didn't know. the ways I had been hurt.

My closest people didn't know the ways I had been hurt.

I was taking it to the stage first and I just kind of got to, it was after I made my special that was called Rape Jokes.

And I had talked about an experience with sexual assault and I invited a good friend of mine who afterwards was like, i didn't know this happened to you you know and i'm so sorry and i i don't like regret making that special but it was eye opening to have a friend say, I didn't know this happened to you.

And I was like, oh, I know why that is. Because I never told you.

Right. I never told you as a person first.

Yeah. You know, like... Yeah. And so... you know, I just am that just, that just stopped feeling good.

Like, I think, I think I like took this awesome, uh, and helpful coping mechanism to the end of the road.

And so it's like, awesome. I love that I have that skill.

And I like have run it into the ground. So let's develop some other skills so that not all of the pressure is in this area.

Yeah, I love that. So it kind of like evolved into it's like a coping mechanism.

And then you found like a different one that works better.

Mm hmm. Exactly, or works in tandem. The stuff that we establish as kids, it's also, I think it's like, something about being you know, your late thirties or this, you know, it's like, I've been in the working world, I've been an adult for a while and oh, this is the stuff I was doing.

I don't necessarily want to be operating the same way that I was 20 years ago.

Yeah, that makes total sense. Yeah, because if I was operating the same way that I was when I was 21 at 35, I'd be questioning a lot of things.

Even at 24 years old, I'm like somebody recently told me that I like wasn't the same person I was when I was 21.

And I was like. They kind of said it like an insult.

And I was like, I hope you realize that's the biggest compliment ever because I don't want to be.

You should evolve as a human. That's great.

Yeah, exactly. That's a positive thing. Right.

We don't want to lay dormant at a certain age.

That's not what we want to do. That's not what life's about.

No. Yeah. So it feels like it's kind of cathartic to kind of do it that way, to get that story, get it to a place where you feel I think less like probably shattered by it, I assume, because that sounded like it was like a pretty terrible experience yeah and then being able to share it in a way that makes people laugh and makes you feel like you can talk about it now Yeah, I think that is really what it is.

So I've always been using catharsis but I have recently adopted intimacy.

You know, like I've always been sort of like blow all the dust off. of it and like wring it dry of feelings but recently added to that the idea of share feelings and allow them to exist.

I love that. Working together, it's really nice.

Yeah. I love that. I feel happy. Yeah. It's good.

I find that like extremely relatable too.

Like, yeah, definitely. For sure. Even though I'm not a stand-up comic.

Yeah, there's that whole piece. Yeah. Up until that part.

Yeah, we're just humans. Yeah. And then one last thing I just wanted to mention before we get into the case that we're going to talk about. is I am a huge Gilmore Girls head.

So in the book, when you mentioned That you came out to your mother over tuna fish sandwiches.

And that the whole scenario would have been so much better if you were Gilmore Girls.

I died. I was like, iconic moment. It's like, all right, we're one.

I get it. It's like, this is awesome. Absolutely.

I just love it. Anything that can be signed off Amy Sherman Palladino.

Any experience in life. It just wraps everything nice up neatly.

Did you enjoy watching the re-release? I just want to ask you that one question.

I did. But how did they end it like that?

I don't know. I'm like, I need another one.

It was funny to me watching the... the new episodes because I think I watched that show before I ever worked in Los Angeles.

And when I watched that show, when I was like a kid, I thought it looked like it was a real place.

100%. I had no concept of what a set was.

And so I was like, I wonder where this is.

And it was actually like... stunning to watch with high def television in, you know, 2019 or whenever that was released and be like, Oh, oh my God.

Wait, I've actually been here. I've been to a meeting here.

You're like, is that Burbank? What's going on?

This is fucking Warner Brothers Studio lot.

It's Connecticut. You've been lying to me this whole time.

It's Connecticut with like mountains in the background. like floating out of their hands because there's no actual coffee in them.

And I was like, Always. Oh, yeah. There were so many things that were like, oh, okay.

I let that go in the original airing. Seriously.

It's like, But it was, I need it back. I need more Big Gilmore Girls.

Absolutely. When it ended, I was like, all right, I know it's Logan's, but can we explore that a little bit?

Because I hate you, Rory. I need to. So let's keep going.

I hate you, Rory. We need to go further into this.

So I guess building off of that too, I feel like we have like a lot in common, just like getting to know you like through your book and just through like things online so we had to ask are you a true crime or like paranormal fan like do you like the creepy weird stuff anything spooky So here's the deal.

I am endlessly fascinated by both true crime and also horror movies, and I cannot watch them.

Like I cannot watch. So I am really scared of everything.

I'm like truly afraid of the dark, like that person.

But I'm interested, it's like that thing where it's like, if it's that scary to you, then it's like super interesting.

So I would like to talk to you about my method for watching scary things.

Please let me do it. You're going to want to do it early in the morning.

Um, subtitles on sound off, listen to something else.

Uh, like, uh, some sort of soothing... Like Enya, spa music.

Taylor Swift song. Scott Music is perfect.

Yeah. Pre-spoil yourself on all of the plot points so that you know what to expect And as you're reading through the synopsis, look up film stills.

So you're looking at a picture of what's going to happen.

You're reading what's going to happen. and then you're listening to something else because it's the music that gets you.

It is. It absolutely is. Every time. If it's good.

This is my tried and true method for. engaging in this type of material.

I love it. You have it down to a T, down to a science even.

I think it's brilliant to do the closed captions and not sound.

Because horror movies are all about sound.

Yeah. Yeah. It's all about the music. When you said that, I was like, yes, yes.

But that's kind of like I'm terrified of the ocean and all water.

I'm terrified of it, but I am fascinated by the ocean and all water.

Sure. So I get it. Yeah. Same thing. I'm actually good with water.

So if you want to team up. I was going to say.

All right, cool. Divide and conquer. Exactly.

We can explore the seas and watch horror movies together.

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Okay. However, I did pick a case that was like a little Hollywood-esque, kind of.

Hollywood. You know, bringing it back to Hollywood.

Yeah. So we're going to talk about Thelma Todd.

Do you know anything about Thelma Todd at all?

No, I've never heard this combination of names.

I'm so excited. It's a combination of names, I love it.

All right, so we're gonna get into it then.

So Thelma Todd was born in 1906 to parents Alice and John Todd.

She was actually a Massachusetts girl who grew up in Lawrence, Massachusetts.

Massachusetts. What, what? Massachusetts.

Look at that. Yeah. So Thelma had a really rocky childhood.

Her father was super, super distant. And when he wasn't being distant and ignoring her, he was being abusive to not only her.

Excuse me, not only to his wife, but also to Thelma as well.

And he actually ended up leaving the family eventually because...

It wasn't working, I guess. I was going to say, because things were going really well.

Things were going awry. So he decided to dip.

But he dipped and things didn't really get that much better because Alice didn't really have a knack for choosing stand-up guys.

She ended up bringing a lot of shady characters into Thelma's life.

And the guys that she dated were all either abusives or abusives.

Abusive. Who were all either abusive or alcoholics.

And they still mistreated not only her, but Thelma, too.

So... This was like a really rocky start, but somehow Thelma pushed through everything.

She was like a super driven girl, really smart.

And she actually had dreams to become a teacher someday.

So she finished high school, and she went to the Lowell State Normal School, which, fun fact, is now UMass Lowell, which I used to frequent.

I've been there too. Let's just make sure that it's all places I've been.

Yeah, perfect. Me, I've been there. I've seen that building.

Who knows, it might be, you never know. So she was at UMass, well, what's now UMass, little excelling at her dream.

She actually started her student teaching, and it was clear that this was something that that she was going to be really good at.

Except her mom had different dreams for her daughter.

Because for most accounts, Alice was pretty manipulative and her dream was to be a stage mama. which I feel like we all know somebody like that a little bit.

She saw this star. power in Thelma. She wanted Thelma to compete in pageants and was like, this is going to take you so many places.

So Thelma was like, okay, I'll do the pageants, but I'm going to be teaching as well and working on my schooling.

I think it's really important to force your dreams on your children.

Yeah, live vicariously through them. Absolutely.

It won't do any damage. Especially in like a Lawrence and Lowell type of a place.

Yeah. for anybody who like isn't super familiar I think of those as like you know they're more of like a You're like, what's the word?

Blue collar sort of a vibe. Yeah, for sure.

Less of like a Broadway sort of a vibe. Like lights and glitz are not what you think of.

Not exactly. Not over at UMass Lowell. But Thelma was really good at, like I said, she was really good at teaching, but she was also amazing at the pageants.

And she kind of just succeeded at... both while she was doing everything.

And I feel like that's because she's a Leo and Leos are really passionate and like super consistent.

So it's not surprising. Look at that. She actually ended up winning the title of Miss Massachusetts in 1925.

So we're going places. And then she went on to compete in the Miss America pageant, which is like...

Big deal for little Laurence girl. It's nationwide, one might say.

Yeah, you know? Which also existed in 1925.

I didn't know that either. Apparently I don't know anything about Miss America.

I guess so. Neither did I. When did this start?

Apparently in 1925. But unfortunately, Thelma didn't hang out there that long.

She lost to Miss California. How many states were there?

How many states were there at this time?

Oh my God, I should have Googled that. You Google that on the back end.

Who competed in this? Seriously. Well, Felma competed. and she did not win.

Miss California won. However, there were like Hollywood scouts at this pageant and they were working for Paramount and they were looking for young actresses to send to this school, the Paramount School for Stars.

And they saw Thelma. She caught their eye, and they were like, she would be perfect at this, but there is one problem.

She's like, in their opinion, she had a weight problem and she was going to have to watch her weight, which if you look at pictures of her, she absolutely did not have a weight problem.

This was just like the beginning of Hollywood.

I was going to say that's just gross. Yeah.

Oh, my God. That's funny. This is that time.

This is that time when like a studio owns you.

When the different movie studios are like, contracting and investing in actors.

Like the Marilyn Monroe effect. giving you that feedback because I mean, first of all, fuck them, but also because they're like, then you're like in their stable of horses.

Right, right, exactly. Yes. You're like an investment to them.

Yeah. Wait, you just described that perfectly because once we get into this, you're going to be like, yep, yep, that check.

There it is. So she was off to LA. They discovered her.

She was ready to go. She left her dreams of being a teacher back in mass, and she was excited to start something new.

So she immediately met with Hal Roach, who at the time was the head of Paramount Pictures.

And Hal agreed. He saw like star potential in her.

He was like, she's beautiful. But I do agree.

I think her weight might be a problem. But no worries.

He had an easy fix for that. he put this clause into her contract called the Potato Clause.

And this clause said that she could not gain more than five pounds or she would be fired as soon as humanly possible.

What's the potato? The potato claws. I guess she couldn't eat potatoes because they make you fat.

Because potatoes will do that, I guess. Where does the potato come from?

We don't come with a potato cloth. I was imagining that the potato weighs five pounds.

But they go, more than a potato. And you can't.

It's such a big potato. It's just one huge It's one of those state farm potatoes.

Like an award-winning potato. State Fair potatoes.

It was at the Idaho State Fair. Exactly.

If I had a potato clause, it would be like everywhere I go.

Needs to have potatoes for me to eat. A zillion percent.

That's my potato clause. I eat potatoes every single day now that I think about it.

Like, probably every single day. I wouldn't have been a good Thelma Todd.

So here's my question also, because this is also a time when, like, Am I just going to predict what happens?

Go ahead. They gave her drugs, right? Oh, my God.

That's what she would do. I feel like you have my script in front of you.

It's like the Marilyn Monroe thing. I say again.

Yeah, I echo. But unfortunately, that was like a perfect transition, by the way.

Thank you. Because... This healthy work environment was being aided by Alice, Thelma's mother, and Alice was the one who quickly got to work getting Thelma a prescription for diet pills. as a good mom does back then was essentially just cocaine or like some kind of amphetamine yes yes exactly And we're off.

This was not like a Nutrisystem kind of thing.

It was a little different. So she quickly, quickly got hooked on the amphetamines, unfortunately.

And she... Basically struggled with the addiction for the rest of her life, which is really sad because it's not really what she signed up.

I mean, I guess. Well, no, that's not what she signed up for.

I was going to say, it's not really what you signed up for.

No, at all. So even though she never set out to act, she was a natural at it, even while on amphetamines.

And Hal really wanted to make a female version of Laurel and Hardy.

So he came up with the idea to cast Thelma alongside a woman called Zazu Pitts, who was like really, really famous at the time.

Zazu. Yeah, I love that name. I do too. That's just like a cool name.

You got to be famous with that name. Honestly, that's a great name.

It is. Yeah. Zazu pits. Seriously. Get out of here.

So yeah, he wanted them to be like a female Laurel and Hardy.

So he would have them work in these comedy shorts together.

And they made a really great pair, but eventually Zazu moved on because she had an amazing name, so she could really go places.

And she was replaced by a woman called Patsy Kelly, which I'm like, are we distant relatives?

Because that's my last name. Perhaps. And it didn't really matter who Thelma was working with because she just had this natural talent and star power.

In fact, when she first started acting, all of her roles were in silent films. which in like shorts like that, but over the course of her career, she started doing more talkies is what they called them back in the day,

Which were just movies where you could like speak and everyone would hear you.

Yeah. to be so expressive to be in a silent movie i know your face has to do like all the work for you yeah So funny.

Yeah. You need good eyebrows. Well, How helpful to be on speed.

You know? There it is. Boom. Yeah. Really make those face muscles work.

So she ended up acting in actually over 120 movies and shorts throughout her career.

People just couldn't get enough of her. They like America loved her.

They called her the ice cream blonde and hot toddy, which I love.

That's what I call you. Hot toddy. That's news to me.

I call it behind your back. That doesn't even sound like an insult.

I'm here for it. Thanks. Thanks. I just don't want your head to get too big.

That's true. And I do have a big head too, so don't make it get bigger.

So in 1931, Thelma met a man named Roland West on the set of a movie called Corsair.

Roland was directing the film and obviously Thelma was acting in it.

But he had convinced her to act under the stage name of Alison Lloyd. which when your name is Thelma Todd, I don't know why you would then go to Alison Lloyd.

But he in his mind, this was Thelma's first dramatic role.

And he was worried that because she was so well known for comedy, having like Thelma Todd in a drama wouldn't work.

Like wouldn't be good for the film. But it was fine for the film, and she never used that name in anything ever again.

She was just Thelma Todd. Like, Thelma's a silly gal name.

So even though he wanted her to change. I think that's exactly.

Oh, no, go ahead. Oh, that's exactly the opposite of how I view things.

It's like when you see Kristen Wiig in a movie and she's really good at... and she has her drama chops, you're like, shit.

Yeah, you're just like multifaceted. She can do everything.

Oh, yeah. That's always my favorite. Seriously, but apparently it wasn't Roland's favorite.

Now even though he tried to change her name, they really hit it off.

I don't think I would hit it off with somebody that wanted to change my name, but to each their own.

And I'm not for Roland, but who am I? That was only like one problem.

The other problem was that he was hella married.

He like had a whole last wife and he was also, which like, it doesn't really matter now, but at the time everyone was like, well, he's so much older than you.

Like, That's not acceptable. So he was married older than her and he didn't like her name.

Three strikes. Yeah. Now, a lot of people point out that it seemed like... Oh, God.

Yeah, right? Right? Like, oh, no. I know what's going to happen.

I know. And everyone pointed out like this kind of relationship was doomed from the start because of all of the reasons that I previously stated because of everything, because of that laundry list over there.

But Thelma was always kind of looking for that father-like figure that she had missed out on as a child now in her adult life.

But she wasn't really good at picking these people, as we will come to see.

Oh, yeah. And actually, there was a movie about her life and death called White Hot, which I have yet to watch, but I want to watch it.

White hot. And one of the producers, his name was Frank Von Cernak.

Um, he said about her quote, she was drawn to men who were extremely dangerous.

That was her Achilles heel. playing with fire was a personality problem.

She was abused and manhandled, and ultimately, we think it cost her her life.

This is such a feel good tale. I know, huh?

But yeah, so that's really sad. I feel like this is the vibe, though.

For me, it's like, I still think this is what we're working with, right?

Like this is, it's the tale from then. And it's like, Anytime, I'll tell you what really upsets me is when I see an actor who has had a woman who has had some level of success and then gets very thin.

Like she's like been young and successful.

And then she has like this extreme thin period that like really, um, I mean, I'm somebody who has previously had an eating disorder.

And so first of all, it's just like visually triggering for me, but, um, Also, just to see that, I'm like, oh, no, what is being told to this person?

Yes. So anyway, obviously we're still here, but that's one thing that when I see that I'm like, Oh, we are still in that zone.

And obviously there's a million other examples, but like that's one that really.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. It feels I feel so nauseated.

I know. And it's because it's like right in of your face that's one of those because you can't see a lot of what's happening obviously behind the scenes right but that's so visual right in front of your face that you're like, something is happening here.

Well, in Hollywood's version of fat is just I'm like, oh, God, I will never step foot there.

Like, oh. You know, like they thought when you were talking about that in the beginning, like how you're saying like that bothers you so much.

I thought of Brittany Murphy. Yes. Yes. It's so absurd.

It is. And she had that period, obviously she had a lot of troubling things going on.

But she had that period where it was really scary how much weight she had lost.

Absolutely. And you were like, oh, no. Like people are telling you this at all angles, I bet.

And that's horrible. And actually, I think her mom helped her kind of get on diet pills, too.

Yeah, because we covered her. Yeah, weird parallel.

Weird. But yeah, so Thelma was really, really going through her time.

She was not good at picking men. The men in her life were just mean to her anyways.

And one of those men was... Pascal, Pat, I believe it's DeChico, or I'm gonna say it might be DeCiccio.

Is he a bad guy? He is a bad guy. He actually later was married to... Is it a C...

Is it a C or is it a CH? It is a C. So it's D-I capital C-I-C-C-O.

So I think it's... Chico? Yeah, or like ditichio, something like that.

Because in Italian, the C-H is ca, and the And C is cha.

Huh. Yeah. I'll bring in my talent. Look at that.

That was helpful. I feel like we'll call him Pat so that we don't get confused.

We should have had the little star go by.

The more you know. I know, right? But...

He was actually later married to Gloria Vanderbilt and had like a very tumultuous relationship with her.

He was from New York. Anderson Cooper. Wow.

Anderson Cooper. That's what I got out of that.

Exactly. That's all I heard. That was the best thing that came out of that.

But he was from New York and he met Thelma when he moved to L.A. in hopes of pursuing acting himself or a career as an agent.

Now, he was really super shady. He was involved in a lot of illegal dealings.

There were a lot of rumors surrounding him that he had ties to the mafia, so just to kind of give you a picture of what he was doing.

And Thelma didn't know that yet, obviously.

So in 1932, she ran off to Arizona and like eloped with this punk.

As one does. Obviously. He was the kind of guy that drank too much, and by this point, Thelma was drinking a lot too.

She was at this point struggling with alcohol as well.

Their marriage right off the bat was like super tumultuous, very violent.

Pat would beat Thelma so badly that she once was rushed to the hospital for an appendectomy. appendectomy, which was like, that's just like nuts to me.

Like, how did he affect your appendix? Yeah.

And then on another occasion, she may or may not have broken his nose in a fight.

So really loving relationship. Wow. Yep.

They divorced only after two years in 1934.

And Thelma actually told the judge in code that Pat was very abusive.

She was like, he mistreats me in front of our guests.

And I guess back then that was code for like, he mistreats me all the time.

Oh, my God, because she couldn't say it out loud.

Yeah. Like you, I guess like for your image.

Yeah. Even though it's nothing that you've done wrong.

But so it was then that Thelma swore that she was never going to drink again.

She was like, as soon as I'm out of this, I'm not drinking.

I'm going to get clean and sober. And it was good for her, but Pats kind of seemed to hang on to the idea that he and Thelma were going to figure things out someday.

Which, spoiler alert, they did not. I was going to say no, Pat.

And then he met Gloria Vanderbilt. And then Anderson Cooper came.

Yes, exactly. It's the end. That's it. And we're done.

That's the story. No, we're going to get back to Roland, of course.

So Roland West was actually one of the constants in Thelma's life.

So when she left Pat, she went right back to him.

And Roland wasn't really feeling his whole director's life anymore, and he was kind of in search of a new project.

Thelma was just coming down from the divorce and she needed something to distract herself to aside from acting.

So together they decided to open up a restaurant. on.

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And they decided to call it Thelma Todd's Sidewalk Cafe.

And the building still exists today. Oh, my God.

I wonder where it is. What town is it in?

Do you know? Yes, I do. I have it written down later in here.

I want to say it's one of the Santas. It's one of those Santas.

Hang on, I'm going to look it up in real time.

Santa Monica. Hold on, I think it is Santa Monica.

It's like way deep down here. I'm looking it up.

We're finding it. We're finding it. It says it's Pacific Palisades.

Ah, you got it. It's like I'm from Massachusetts.

I don't know what that means. Right north of Santa Monica.

There you go. Okay, perfect. I think you were right.

I think it is Santa. So there was a Santa in there.

There was. Santa, I told you guys. Hold on, I'm just scrolling back up now.

I told ya. I told ya. So yes, so they opened that up.

They called it Thelma Todd Sidewalk Cafe.

And you said it's still there? The building is still there, yes.

That's cool. But don't forget, Roland was still married to his wife, Jewel Carmen.

And Jewel ended up becoming a business partner to the two of them, which is probably the world's wildest trio ever.

To open a restaurant together, I feel. Get it.

Yeah. No issues will come of that, I bet.

It was quite a setup, but it worked. sources that I read said that Jewel was fully aware that Thelma and Roland were like getting it on together, but she just kind of looked the other way.

Alright. Yeah. Alright, Jewel. Get it, Jewel.

Whatever works for you. Yeah. So Thelma's Hollywood Circle came out to support her business and At the beginning, it did incredibly well.

The menu was super extensive. There was kind of something for everyone.

I found this advertisement from back in the day for the restaurant and it said, quote, Thelma Todd Sidewalk Cafe, serving a Long Island Shore dinner, fish with Allison sauce, unequaled.

French-Italian dinner, Pancake Suzette unsurpassed.

The reason from the Savoy London and the Crayon Paris comes our chef.

Fancy. So they got a fancy chef at this place.

They got a French chef. Did... There's fish with Allison sauce?

But this is the director that had her have that name, right?

Yes. Yeah, he changed her name, but he didn't do the potato claws.

But I guess he likes the name Allison. But he had an Allison sauce.

That's a lot. It's a weird thing. So much.

Like the name of the place is Thelma Todd's Roadside Cafe and they have Allison sauce on the menu.

You know, for old times sake. Just sometimes we have that on the menu.

But at the menu when I was reading it, like just even in that little blurb, I was like, there's so many things at this restaurant that just like don't really go together, but okay. pancakes there was french cuisine i was like wow there truly is something for everyone yeah And this property is actually like a really big property.

And the whole layout became really important later on.

So let's kind of talk about that a little bit.

Let's do it. Let's do it. So the restaurant itself was street level.

And that's where most of the elite stars would come to dine.

The restaurant also had a second floor, which was private, and it was called um yoya's room and it was more of like a nightclub vibe where people could dance but also grab a drink something to eat but it was like a little more lively than the downstairs and then upstairs in like a separate part Thelma had an apartment And even though Roland's house was kind of nearby, just like a little drive up the hill,

He would also stay in the apartment a lot with Thelma.

He had his own room, but like, I don't really think he used it that much.

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and assume. I'm going to make an ass out of you and me and assume.

So they were getting it on the low, but really not even on the low. getting it on the medium on the high yeah On the third floor.

So he his house was literally like right at the top of the hill.

And then the restaurant is underneath. But he stays in the apartment like all the time with Thelma.

And Jewel is just, like, at their beautiful mansion.

I mean... I guess if it doesn't bother her, she's like, I'll just stay in this mansion forever.

Right. I'll take this mansion to myself.

Have fun in that third story apartment over a restaurant.

Yeah. Oh, my God, you two. Look, I did something that maybe I'm not supposed to be doing. while I'm listening, which is that I looked up this place because... Oh, I do it every time.

Oh, go ahead. You might not know this, but the Pacific Coast Highway goes right on the... on the Pacific Coast.

So if you're if you're driving to go to the beach, say, for instance, and you're not going to Orange County, if you're going if you're trying to go from where I live, I live like way far on the east side of LA and way far on the west side of LA.

Those things are it's like not the same community at all.

It's not the same vibe. It's not the same type of people.

But the way to go to the beach is the Pacific Coast Highway runs along um santa monica the pacific palisades malibu and so you and then all the way up to like Santa Barbara and then all the way up like further, like it runs along the coast.

So, and it's the one road, like it's like, there's a road, there's maybe a parking lot in some places, and then there's like, beach ocean.

Oh, wow. And so anyway, if I was like, if this place still exists, I mean, this is To go to Malibu, to go to like, I've driven past this place a zillion times.

So I looked up where it is and I'm like, sure I've seen this building.

It's like a very distinct building. It's like Spanish style.

Yeah, I'm looking at it now. And anyway, now I will know in future when I drive. past that.

Yes, exactly. And you'll think of us. Like, everybody that lives in LA has driven...

On this road, it's like the road you drive on.

Yeah, so you had to have passed by it. It was Thelma's road at one point, everyone.

It was Thelma's. Never forget. It was. That's so cool though.

I didn't even realize it was like the main, main road.

Yeah. The main, main beach road. Love that.

I love that. So, yes. So they had their restaurant, they're upstairs, downstairs, just living their lives together.

And then even though... He was married.

Roland was like super jealous when it came to Thelma going out and meeting new people.

I'm shocked. Which is so shocking, but it's... Wow.

So ridiculous. Blow me over with a feather. whole ass wife over there and i can't go out with like tom from down the street why not i know seems like a double standard You would think Roman would be logical.

He was not. He was actually the farthest thing.

And we'll see that because such was the case on December 14th. when Thelma headed out to a party being held at the Trocadero Cafe in her honor.

Now, the party was being put on by a man named Stanley Lupito, who had starred in the film You Made Me Love You alongside film.

Now, Roland told Thelma that he was locking the apartment door at 2 a.m., so she better be home right then or before then.

And she was like, okay, like, screw you.

I'll see you at 205. Like, literally told him, I will see you at 205.

Like, get out of here. What? Wow. She was sassy.

She was like, you're not going to lock me out.

Starting off the night right. Yeah, they argued a lot.

They were really arguing a lot. So her driver, Ernie Peters, which I just think Ernie is the cutest name ever. picked her up and off to the party she went.

She was dressed too. To the nines, she was wearing a metallic silvery blue evening gown, which was completely sequined.

Ooh, a full length mink coat, which we're not going to talk about.

Not awesome. Not so great. But OK. Blue silk slippers, which I'm like, silk slippers?

Like, oh, you're so decadent. And then she was dripping in like a modest $20,000 worth of jewelry, which also included...

Diamond hair clasps. Like diamonds in your hair.

It's also, this is in what year? That she's got $20,000 worth of jewelry on?

In the 30s. Damn wild. That was a time when money was a thing.

Money was wild. Money was having a moment.

And she's like, I'm just going to a party and I need to put my diamonds in my hair.

Can someone help me with that? Dripping.

Dripping and... Everything. So people said that at the party she was happy and cheerful, probably because she had $20,000 worth of jewelry on.

I would be. Some people claimed that she had some drinks, but she didn't seem drunk at all.

And I've seen different accounts about this, but most sources say that Pat was there, her ex-husband, and he had been asked to be seated next to Thelma.

But then to kind of like embarrass her, he didn't sit next to her and he went to a different table and was chatting it up with like this up and coming. well-known actress at the time oh fuck off pat yeah he was like basically just like dick move dude So this obviously made Thelma mad.

They got into a bit of a heated exchange, some sources say.

Now, other sources say that they didn't talk at all and that Pat wasn't even a guest at that particular party that night.

He just happened to be at the Trocadero in, like, different part of the bar.

I love eyewitness accounts. My favorite thing ever.

He was there. No, he wasn't. Like, he was there and they fought, they danced, they made love, they got married, and then the next one is like, He wasn't even there.

He literally wasn't even there. Well, here's the thing.

Either way, he definitely was there. It's just a matter of whether or not he and Thelma had a fight.

Most sources say that they got into, like, a little tiff at that party.

I would believe it. I think so. They seemed to tiff whenever they saw each other, so...

So Thelma was said to have asked a friend to call Roland and let him know that she would be on her way home soon.

Now, this was around 1.50 a.m., So unless she's going to get home in 10 minutes, that door is going to be locked.

Uh oh. And now, really, she didn't end up leaving the party until a quarter after three in the morning.

The door is definitely locked. To which I say like party, sis.

Love that for you. Damn. Yeah. That's the time my youngest wakes me up in the morning, actually.

Yeah. That's actually very accurate. So that's where I am in life.

Party, right? Party till three. Wake up at three.

Yeah, so she definitely was not going to make it home to an unlocked door.

And Stanley Lupino actually said later that the two of them got to talking about an idea that Thelma had for a movie. one that she told him she fully owned the rights to and really wanted to work on with him. and he fully expected to talk to her about it the coming weekend and he was super excited to kind of get this rolling.

And with that, she headed home, off to bed at 4 a.m.

On the way home, her driver said that she was unusually quiet.

She was usually like really chatty. And he also said that she asked him to drive as fast as he could because she was worried about gangsters in the area.

Interesting. Which I love that that was like a thing back then.

Usually you're worried about like a skunk in the middle of the night.

Yeah, or that somebody's following you. She's just worried about gangsters in the area.

I'm worried about, like, coyotes. Which she meant, like, mobsters. by the way yeah so when they got back to Thelma's place it was about a quarter to four in the morning And Ernie offered to walk her to the door.

He always used to walk her to the door. Like there was never a night that he didn't.

But on this particular night, she said, no, it's OK.

Like, I'll just walk upstairs by myself.

Which he was like, it was weird that she did that because she had never done that.

But I wasn't going to argue with her because he couldn't.

And she was worried about gangsters in the area.

You know, worried about gangsters, but then doesn't want to be walked to her own front door.

A little weird. So she got out of the car.

She walked up to the apartment. And that was the last time anybody saw Thelma Todd alive.

Dun dun dun. Dun dun dun. So no one is really sure what happened.

I can't stop thinking about how cold it must have been.

Maybe that's like the wrong thing to bring in here.

No, it's not. That beachfront property at four o'clock in the morning.

That's chilly. That is chilly. And that was very cool.

That was something. Silk slippers. Those are not staying warm.

She's getting ice cold feet. She did have a mink, was it a coat?

She had a mink floor-length coat on, so she was probably pretty warm.

But you're right, because they pointed out how cold it was and how... We'll get into it in a sec of where she's found.

They're like, okay, maybe... We'll get into it.

She definitely got cold toes. We know that.

Yeah, and those silk slippers. Yep. Yes.

And all the diamonds. Oh, yes. All that ice.

So icy. It took a minute for that to click in my head.

I was like, the diamonds, why are she cold?

Why are those diamonds cold? I'm not always quick on the... of the, you know, anyways.

We love you anyway. So, so yeah. Yes, he was the last person to see her alive, other than maybe the person that killed her.

So I lost my place. No one is really sure what happened between Thelma's arrival home in the Monday morning of December 16th because When Thelma was found dead that day, she was behind the wheel of her car, which she loved, loved, loved her car.

It was a 1932 Lincoln Phaeton or Phaeton.

And there are tons of theories as to like how she ended up there. now it's funny that you said that it was super cold because one of the main theories is that she was super cold, locked out of the apartment, so went to the garage and got in the car to stay warm.

And they were like, maybe she turned the car on and she ended up getting like carbon monoxide poisoning.

And that's how she died. But there's so much more weird stuff that it doesn't sound like that happened.

Other than maybe she was cold and went up to the garage.

I think that's just using the locked apartment theory.

Yeah. And just being like, yep, that's what it was.

Exactly. But there was more to this. So a woman named May Whitehead was actually Thelma's maid and housekeeper.

And she had been for quite some time. and she was set in her daily routine.

The routine started with her driving her own car up to the garage.

And the garage was right below where Roland and Jules mansion was.

And like kind of, adjacent to the restaurant and where Thelma lived.

And... All three business owners kept their car there, and it was known that they always kept it unlocked. and they always kept their keys to the cars in the ignition, which... doesn't seem like a really good thing.

Classic safe. Yeah. Classic. Yeah. Super safe.

Who needs a lock? Not me. We all do that.

Yeah. So her saves time. Yeah, yeah. So Mae's routine is that she would park her own car there.

And then she would drive Thelma's car down to the cafe.

So it was right there if Thelma needed to go anywhere.

So this morning when she walked over to the car, she was she walked over the passenger side because she was going to be putting like some clothes in the car and like the passenger seat.

But when she opened the door, she saw Thelma in the car, and she thought at first that she was sleeping.

And Thelma was kind of slumped over in the driver's seat, and her head was facing to the left, so away from Mae at that point.

But then she kind of got a closer look and it was clear that this 29 year old actress was dead. dead.

And just as quickly as she came to that realization, she also realized that there was a small amount of blood pooled under Velma's nose.

Hmm. A little weird. A little weird. A little weird.

Strange. Yeah. So she's terrified. She's super upset.

So she runs down to the cafe to find somebody to help her.

And the restaurant's treasurer was there.

And when May explained what she had just found, like stumbled upon the man who was working at the cafe. called Roland upstairs, who was asleep in the apartment.

And true to his word, Roland had locked the doors to the apartment that night that Thelma had gone to the party and now he was feeling like a huge sting of regret like this happened because I locked her out.

Because it's like you just went to sleep. didn't care what happened and it was something that he had done like like a lot like he she was known to get locked out of the apartment He's quite a guy.

Yeah, he sucks. So he's like feeling super regretful.

He's like, obviously, this is my fault. And because that's the other thing.

So this is Monday morning. That party had been on Saturday night.

So something had happened on Saturday night and then she had just been sitting there.

And they knew that because she was still dressed in her party clothes when they found her.

Oh, damn. So eventually, I mean. So glamorous and terrible.

I was going to say, I hate to say this, but like what an outfit to go in.

Yeah. If you had to choose, that would definitely be yours.

If I had to choose, I would be wearing exactly that.

Exactly. And everything was still there?

I was just gonna say, yes. all the jewels were still there.

So this was not like a robbery or something like that gone wrong.

That was like a super weird thing for them too.

So eventually everyone is showing up to this place.

The police, there's a doctor, there's another couple who worked at the restaurant, there's reporters.

Elena was there over here. everyone's time to call a doctor when somebody's been dead for two days they're like hey We got something for you.

Do you have a cure? Give some Vicks. Oh, man.

Yikes. Do you have some Febreze? That's just the only question that you ask in that moment.

Unfortunately. Although it was December, so it was cold.

It was cold. California. For the nighttime, I should say.

It would be freezing, I'm telling you. It would be so cold.

Because I'm thinking Massachusetts cold.

Yeah, but overnight, so Los Angeles is the desert.

Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. Like it did sound way cold in the night.

Right. And then... especially if you're beachfront, like I, I, I, For some reason, I just can't... When you were initially like, he's going to lock her up to him, I'm like... this is a terrible situation because she's been so chilly.

Like I'm not, I'm just like, this is like, sounds so cold.

Like, This sounds very uncomfortable. You could die of exposure.

Oh, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely.

Especially in that outfit. I mean, minus the coat, but I mean.

Even still. Yeah. What's that thing, paradoxical undressing?

Yeah, that can start happening. You start getting naked.

What is that? That's a thing, like the diet love pass incident.

I know what it is. You get like hypothermia and you start like tricking yourself into thinking that you start taking things off.

Your brain like thinks that you're hot and you're actually... completely freezing, and then you're even more freezing.

And then you're found nude. Yeah. And then it confuses everybody like the diet love fast incident where they were like, why are they naked on this random Siberian mountain?

Yeah, it's an embarrassing way to go. It's rough.

It's rough. Not awesome. Wouldn't choose it.

I mean, slash, what if you've been working on your bod?

That's true. That would be great. Right now?

Like... quarantine pandemic life not a good time to be found don't don't want to be found paradoxically undressed Give me a few more months.

Don't find yourself paradoxically undressed in any situation.

No, thank you. So, yeah. So, everybody is there at this crime scene.

The reporters are trying to take pics. Friends are showing up because word is spreading around town.

In fact, one of Thelma's friends was actually in line at the bank and he heard the news that this was all going on and this sweet man rushed to her mother's house and like picked up her mom and like got her and told her before like a reporter called her.

He was like, I just wanted to get there before a reporter called.

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Yeah. So now the mom is there, and she immediately said, my daughter...

So here's the other thing. Most people say that she immediately was like, my daughter has been murdered and then like walked out of the room like it was like a mystery game event.

Can you imagine? But later on, later on, she said that she never said that.

But everybody that said she did was like, nope, she absolutely said that.

It's like Clue. It is. I like that. It's so hard to follow.

And I just picture her like... Like coming in there like Mae West-ish and just be like, my daughter was murdered.

Moira, did I tell you? Throwing the boa over her shoulder and walking away.

She actually just takes the main coat off of her body and walks away.

Just walks away. She's like, I'm going to go now.

So, the blood under the nose, I get that, but, like, this doesn't feel like a murder.

Tell me what else makes it feel like a murder.

We'll get to that. This just feels like someone is cold and got in the car.

Like an accident. And they're unlocked. He's in the ignition.

Yes. Wait a minute. Hang on a second. If the keys were in the ignition, why didn't she just drive her ass somewhere?

Correct. Exactly. Exactly. Go to a motel.

A hotel. A holiday inn. The burning questions.

Yeah. Or, like, go up to Jules. Jules likes you, I guess.

They got friends. Yeah, she's got friends.

Yes, pop in. Yeah, say hello to Jules. Just be like, hey Jules, you know how Roland is.

Can I stay here for the night? You know your husband, my guys.

He locked me out. Yeah. So the manager of the cafe shows up, Rudy Schaefer, and he later said, So two people noticed the blood under her nose, and the first was May, and then the second was Roland.

And they said there was a small amount pooled underneath her nose.

Rudy Schaefer begs to differ. He said that he noticed blood on Thelma's face as well as the bottom of her nose and said it spread all over. all the way down to her mouth, but looked like it had been wiped up by a handkerchief or something.

So who knows? Or it's smeared. Yeah, or it's smeared.

So that wasn't the only weird thing surrounding Thelma's death, because for one thing, when she was discovered, the car was running.

So whatever happened to her, like I said, presumably went down like a day and a half before when she'd gotten home from the party.

So the car is running, but there's still two and a half gallons of gas in the car a day and a half later. which is weird.

Well, I don't, I mean, what's the, what are cars like?

I was going to say, what's the fuel efficiency?

What does a car do? How does a car use gas?

I feel like back then too, the other thing is that they like, I feel like they wouldn't have. been that good, you know?

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what the fuel efficiency of a Lincoln Phaeton was back in the 20s or the 30s.

You know, I can't say that I looked that up because cars don't really interest me.

I should ask Drew, my boyfriend. There you go, ask Drew.

I'll ask him when I get home and I'll report back later.

But I think that's super weird a day and a half later to have two and a half gallons in the car.

And then here's what's weirder. How is the car even running?

Because the battery was completely discharged when they discovered it.

Huh? Wait, what? The battery was discharged.

How is the car even running? No, exactly.

A car needs a battery, correct? I think I know that at least.

I know I have a battery in mine. I think there's one in mine.

Yeah, that's strange. There's just somebody cranking the engine?

The hand crank? Like, so weird. What are you talking about?

You're like, how does this work? I'm like, the battery.

Was the battery not there? Or was it just not charged?

It was discharged. Discharged, so... So there, but astray.

I don't get it. Like the car's running, they open the hood, they go.

The battery like. I don't get it. What are you talking about?

I don't get it either. It makes no sense.

Like the car's definitely running. They open that hood and they're like, it shouldn't be running.

It doesn't make any sense. Okay. The ghost is running this car.

There's nothing that should work with this car.

No, no, no. So super duper weird. So now it's paranormal.

Yes, now it is paranormal. Shit just got real weird.

Now, here is where it's going to get even weirder, though. because the strangest thing about this entire thing is that people in Thelma's life were reporting that they had either seen or heard from her that Sunday afternoon when the coroner reported that she most likely died very early on Sunday morning between 5 and 8 a.m.

That's weird. I'm dead serious. What do you mean heard from?

OK, so Jewel, I'll give you the account.

So Jewel Carmen, Roland's wife there. said that she had seen Thelma on Sunday afternoon in the passenger seat of a car being driven by a man she didn't recognize... and Thelma was wearing a hat.

I don't know about Jules. That's not Thelma.

That's not Thelma. That one... We can say... We can scratch that one off.

We can scratch that off. I think Jewel was lying.

The police also thought she was lying. Yeah, I know.

I wouldn't take Jules' word. No. The police were like, we don't really want to talk to you.

Poor Jules. Bye. And so here's the other thing, though.

This one is really, really weird. So Thelma had also reportedly spoken with her friend Martha Ford about on Sunday afternoon and was planning to go to a party at Martha's later that night with a mystery guest.

Thelma herself said, you are all going to die when you see who I show up with.

It's the Grim Reaper. Yes. You're all going to die.

The Grim Reaper is here with me. Ultimate entrance.

The ultimate. Oh. And Martha said they were like, okay, did somebody else call you that knew that she was dead and was just trying to mess with the time?

And she was like... No, that was Thelma.

I spoke to Thelma. I know I did. Huh. So you never find out who the mystery guest was or anything.

Oh, that's going to kill me. So immediately.

I want to know who the guest is. I know.

I want to know who the guest is. It's a battery.

It's a battery. Yes. So immediately people start remembering that actually right before Thelma's death, like a couple of months previous.

And like around the same time that she opened the cafe with Roland, she started getting like super threatening letters from different people. who were clearly after her money and the cafe.

And the letter said things like, we will wreck that Santa Monica cafe of yours.

So yes, you were right, Santa Monica. Oh, there you go.

And quote, our San Francisco boys will lay you out.

Ooh. Which I don't even understand what that means.

That's so spicy. I feel like everybody was like, we were going to get you back then. so now okay so some but not all of the letters were traced to a man named harry shemansky and He was from New York.

I knew it was Harry Szymanski. It's always Harry Szymanski.

It's always him. And he was arrested. So he was behind bars at the time that she was murdered.

So it wasn't him. And now the letters that weren't attributed to Harry were most likely not like totally confirmed, but most likely from this other guy. named Edward Schiffert, who was a fan of Thelma's,

But he kind of thought like he got in his mind that they were involved in a relationship together.

But like they definitely weren't. He got a little like...

You know, got a little attached. Like a Rebecca Schaefer kind of situation.

It's so funny that you said that. That's exactly what I was thinking of.

Yes. That's scary. It is scary and he was later actually committed.

So both of these These men were behind bars at the time that she died.

So it's neither of these men that sent like scary letters.

Hmm. But in my mind, and the more we get into this, you'll see why I think this. some of those letters like especially the one that said like our San Francisco boys will lay you out had mob ties.

Yeah. Because number one, that's like a very mob-ish thing to say.

Number two, she's afraid of like the gangsters in the area.

And then we'll get into more of the mob stuff a little bit toward the end.

So there were a few main suspects surrounding Thelma's death, and the first was Roland West.

So I pointed out he was extremely jealous and overprotective when it came to Thelma.

He literally locked her out of the house in case we forgot.

He was also married, as we know, so that's kind of like a motive right there.

Because it's like, did Jewel just get sick of turning her head the other way and you had to get rid of Thelma kind of thing?

Like I said, they had also been arguing a ton lately.

And by this point, the restaurant wasn't really doing that well anymore.

And it was reportedly because the mafia, Lucky Luciano in particular, was forcing them to buy liquor from this particular distributor.

And it was at like a crazy price. that they couldn't afford, so then they weren't making up that money.

And Roland was also known to have mafia ties.

And then this is the wild thing. On his deathbed, he claimed that he knew more about Thelma Todd's murder than he let on in the beginning.

Oh, I love a deathbed confession. But he didn't, it like wasn't a deathbed confession because he didn't say like, I did it.

He just said, I knew stuff. He just said, I know more.

That's very odd. He like kind of OJ'd it.

He was like, if I did it, which I didn't, but I do know who did.

Right, right, right. It's a very Roland thing to do.

It is. In my opinion. And his last words were Allison sauce.

I'm totally kidding. MUSIC So, yeah, that's, like, all the dirt we have on Roland.

Personally... I think I'm sure I think he knows what happened, but I don't think he was the one to really murder her.

So our next suspect, we've got the ex-husband, Pat.

And I feel like that's like there's so many obvious reasons for why he would have done it.

Yeah. Obviously, while they were married, their relationship was incredibly tumultuous.

Matt was rumored to have thought that he and Thelma were getting back together, like I said in the beginning.

And he even told his family around the time of her death that they were working on it.

But on Thelma's end, it didn't seem that way because she's talking about like moving on and dating different people and showing up to this party with some mystery guest.

Like, I don't think the mystery guest was Pat.

They also maybe had that argument at Stanley's party the last night.

Maybe. Thelma was seen alive and nobody knows what the argument was over.

They were just seen by some people arguing.

Now, on top of that, and this is where we get to like, how is this murder?

Because during Thelma's autopsy, it was discovered that she had two cracked ribs. a broken nose and bruising around her throat area and internal damage done to her throat.

Oh, that's straight up murder. Oh, there you go.

Moira. That's Moira. That is definitely Moira.

I told you we'd get there. We got there.

And, obviously, like I said, Pat was known to have been abusive during their relationship, so he very well could have beaten her.

And just like Roland, he was known to have mob ties.

Well, now I'm thinking about Roland again.

I know. Like, maybe they weren't on it together.

Yeah, I was ready to throw Roland out. So we have one more suspect, and in my opinion...

He did this. Well-known mobster, Lucky Luciano.

Ooh. Because... Thelma and Lucky actually had a brief relationship after she and Pat had divorced.

And lucky, she was getting it. But she was like, she was gorgeous.

But she, like I said, did not know how to pick them.

So Lucky was rumored to actually have been pressuring Thelma to rent out the third floor of the cafe to him. so that he and his mob buddies could use it as like a gambling space, like an underground casino kind of thing.

Amazing. Now this is, in my opinion, the smoking gun.

She told him that was not happening. She literally told him quote over my dead body.

And his response to her was, that can be arranged.

All right, so lucky Luciano did it. Now I have more compelling evidence.

Barbara Walters on the case. Because while they were dating, Thelma was actually sober.

And Lucky was not into sober people, because he wasn't sober himself.

So one night while they were hanging out, she refused his offer of some champagne.

And he was not having that. So he took the bottle and essentially shoved it down her throat.

So could that have been like he did that?

And then he also shoved a hose down her throat. of like from the gas line of giving her the carbon monoxide poisoning. he's not afraid of putting things in people's throats oh damn oh damn That sounded a lot worse than I meant for it to.

I don't like this pathology that Lucky Luciano has developed.

No, neither do I. I don't like it. It sounds very mobby to me.

It sounds very mobby. weird thing is, like I said, during her autopsy, there was internal damage to her throat in addition to like a ton of carbon monoxide.

So they thought like he took a hose from the gas line and like or I don't even know what this crazy ass. car like looped it around the back or whatever like the exhaust I don't I don't understand how it works and and then was doing that to make it look like it was a suicide.

I was just going to say that this seems like work that was not required.

Yes, overkill. It seems like... We're really, this is, It's a lot.

It's a lot going on here. But I feel like it was a lot in old Hollywood.

Everything was just a lot. Everything was just extra.

Yeah. But I feel like he had to have known, especially like a mobster.

They have to know that during the autopsy, they're going to find all those other injuries.

I know, well that's the weird thing. So why even bother with the staging of making it look like carbon monoxide?

Because it's like you broke her ribs and her nose.

Those are big. Those get discovered pretty quick in an autopsy.

Yeah. It is weird. Wow. I just, yeah, I don't know.

Very strange. It's so weird to me. I don't know if maybe he like decided like because he was so upset with her for not wanting the third floor casino thing to happen, that, like, he was planning to offer anyway, and...

Maybe he didn't even do it himself. Maybe he, like, sent one of his, like, people.

Oh, yeah, I'm sure he did. And one of them got, like... Oh, definitely did do it himself.

Right. And maybe one of them got like a little too into beating her up.

And then they were like, crap, we need to make this look like it was a suicide.

So then they kind of panicked and did that and got messy.

That could be it. Or just... just to confuse everybody like we're confused such a weird suicide though the weirdest you don't you also don't need the hose no especially down the throat like you don't need to place it directly where it needs to go.

Why else would there be internal damage to her throat?

Like, it doesn't make sense. Unless maybe I don't know if maybe it was like from like alcoholism.

But was she that? I mean, that's like extraordinary when you have like esophageal damage.

Yeah. And I don't think she would have done that.

Years and years of like really abusing alcohol.

Yeah. I don't think she would have done that in the short time she was in Hollywood because she died when she was 29 and she was around like 21, 22 when she got to Hollywood.

I mean, she was pretty young for that, but I don't know how hard she was going, but... That's the thing.

But that's strange. Yeah. It's so weird.

So... Thing that sucks, too, is that no one will ever know what happened to Thelma because a grand jury decided that her death was a suicide. and the police rushed the investigation.

The other thing is that they let everybody traps through the crime scene.

So if there was any evidence, it was gone by the time they got there.

They also were known to be a very corrupt police department who had mob ties.

Yeah. Huh. So maybe they were just they were rushing to cover this up.

Perhaps. Because they didn't want their boys to be upset.

Yeah. Back then, they were not awesome at the whole securing the crime scene thing.

That seems to be a pattern. They were not good at that at all.

I know. I wanted to see a picture of her, and it's one of those things where you can... I mean, that's a bummer, but... there are photos just of her.

There's just photos of the crime scene. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, of her in the car, right? Yeah, like literally like slumped over in the car, being carried out of the car.

Where you're like... All stages. Oh, I don't think that should be just a photo I can find.

No. Just in Google Images. That happens a lot to us.

Like we'll post pictures just like I'll try to find a picture of the person that did the crime, and I'll end up seeing a picture of the victim online and being like, I didn't want to see that.

Like, no. Yeah, that happened during the Ian Brady and Myra Hindley case.

It was horrible. And I was like, wow, that's going to haunt me for the rest of my life because I just happened to be, I was looking for a picture of them. or something and I just happened to go into Google Images and it was like, boom, and it was one of the victim's photos and they were kids and I was like,

OK, I'm destroyed now. Oh, God. And the exact same thing happened to me.

And I literally I will wake up at like four o'clock in the morning sometimes and think of that.

And I'm like, oh, why is it in there? It's awful.

But that, guys, is the Thelma Todd case.

And nobody knows what happened. What do we think?

Cameron, you go first. What do you think?

Yeah, I mean, I think that the, I think the, I think the lucky one makes the most sense.

Although like, again, it just does sound, oh man, am I going to say this?

It's like, Oh, my shoulders are slumping.

You never want to be a 29 year old person.

And then after you're dead, it's like there's three people that it's like, all seem reasonable to believe they would have killed you and two of them are your lovers Or three of them.

You just don't want there to be like, right, oh yeah, three of them.

They're all people you've had intimate relationships with that are so dangerous that everybody's like, well, it couldn't have been any of these people.

That's just a... That's just a true bummer.

It is. It really is. It is. That's the tragedy here.

I know. I feel like the fact that, like, Roland on his deathbed there was like, I know things.

I know all the things. I think he was involved with like the mob thing.

Yeah. And then maybe it was like a group. group effort.

That's what I kind of think that it was kind of all of them had mob ties.

They're all in the same area. They're all involved with Thelma.

So it's kind of like it all. It's like the perfect storm.

Or, you know, he could also have found out after in terms of like that, you know, I mean, that's the thing that's so that, like if everybody was business associates through that through working together in the mob then nobody would have turned each other in.

No, of course not. They could have just said, this is what happened.

Yeah, he might just know. Because of this.

And he would have been like, okay, you know.

I'm going to keep that one. I wish he had said it, though.

It's like... We'll do nothing with that information.

Yeah, it's like you're exiting. Like, you're not going to be affected by this.

Like, could we just please know what happened?

Yeah, just let it all out. I don't know, though.

It's such a weird case because on the other side of it, like you were kind of saying, like, she's involved with all these shady people.

So... It really could have just been kind of an accident.

She went up to the car to get warm. She left the car running.

She got the carbon monoxide poisoning. And then it just kind of like worked that all these shady people were in her life.

So it kind of just took off. how'd she break her nose and her ribs accurate so yeah it's one of those things that I feel like I just keep going back and forth on Unless that happened at some other point, like during the night or something and nobody knew and that's why Ernie said she was quiet.

Maybe she was in pain. That's true. I didn't even... Maybe her and Pat got in a fight or her and someone got in a fight and something happened or she fell or...

And she was quiet because she was in pain.

And she was like, I just want to get upstairs.

Don't walk me there because you're going to figure it out.

And then she couldn't get in, so she goes and sits in the car.

I think I solved it. I think that was like a really good point, actually.

I didn't even think of that, that it could have happened before.

So I think I just solved it, guys. The party's closed.

And there was a fight at the party. Because a lot of people said there was at least an argument.

Yeah. Right. It's one of those things where I feel like you'll just never settle.

Like I did this case at one of our like first live shows.

So that's why I decided to do it again. Cause I feel like.

I got a little bit better with my research skills.

I actually ended up finding a lot more than I found the first time.

But still, even like... The first time I did it to now, I've gone back and forth so many times on what I think happened.

Yeah. I mean, overall it's like, what happened is that this person was just disposable to multiple people.

Which is so sad. I know. It's all those old Hollywood cases.

They all have that kind of like underlying tone of just sadness.

Yeah. For sure. But I mean, that doesn't again, it doesn't feel different to me to now, you know, like especially when it's a young person who is working in the industry and there's like a tragic death.

And then there's that like sort of outpouring of mourning, but then, um, We move on as a culture because we do.

I mean, honestly. not to like super personalize it, but really taking it back to what we were talking about at the very beginning when I was talking about like, finding a job that's an outlet for your feelings, but then trusting that to be something that will take care of you, you know, like, the industry is not your friend and audience is not your friend.

And I think that that can be really confusing.

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And so, you know, that's like when all these really terrible stories come come together, it's because somebody wasn't protected and they trusted the wrong thing.

They trusted $20,000 worth of jewels and cool beachfront restaurant and We didn't have people that were really able to keep them safe or that cared about keeping them safe.

And it's so sad when the family is involved too.

Like the fact that her mom just... Her mom was a really shady character from the start.

Yeah, she kind of aided in getting her in the machine.

Yeah. So she just kind of had no one. Poor Thelma.

I know. Justice for Thelma. But on a lighter note, thank you so much for joining us.

It was so cool hanging out with you. This was so much fun.

It was cool hanging out with you too. I really like you two.

I really like you. Look at that. Now we're friends.

Absolutely. And is there anything that you want to like plug, announce?

Where can we find you? Yes, plug away. Hmm.

Well, I got a zillion things I'm working on.

Um, but right now, honestly, it's just dog photos.

Keep working on them. I love them. Keep going.

I mean, that's front-facing, so let's...

I'll don't worry. I'll keep working on this other stuff and maybe there'll be big things in future.

But in the meantime, please keep up with my dog photos via all of my social media.

Yes. Yes. Do it. It's worth it, everybody, I promise.

It definitely is. Guys, everyone listening, go follow Cameron on everything.

Go get Cameron's book. I just got the hardcover copy.

I was like, I need her to like virtue. sign it or something.

I wish that was a thing. And it's so good.

It's so good. You guys will love it. And as always, guys, we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird.

Bye. Thank you. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music.

Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

[할리우드의 비극적 아이콘: 델마 토드의 미스터리한 죽음과 카메론 에스포시토와의 대담]-[Episode 227: The Mysterious Death of Thelma Todd (With Special Guest Cameron Esposito!)]

📋 Summary

할리우드의 빛과 그림자: 델마 토드의 삶과 죽음

델마 토드: 성공 뒤에 가려진 고통

로랜드 웨스트와의 관계와 의문점

할리우드의 구조적 폭력과 오늘날의 시사점

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript