Episode 224: The Mysterious Murder of Julia Wallace Part 3｜Morbid

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Hey weirdos, I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is Morbid.

So sorry that this is coming out a little later than we intended.

We had some technical catastrophes happen.

You would think that like three years in these things wouldn't happen.

But for some reason, the file, I think, just destroyed itself.

Yeah, it was like, nope, we're not done.

But you know what? I'm excited to do this again because it's a fun episode.

It is. It's a good one. Honestly, no joke.

I could have made this like 16 parts. I know.

She said that the other day. She was like, I think we were like making dinner or something.

Oh, I just punched my laptop. And I was like, I'm glad that you didn't.

Yeah, I literally could make this its own separate podcast, I'm pretty sure, like by itself.

Wow. There's just so much. I had to stop myself from just including everything because I found the actual court transcripts.

You would. online and I'll post them in the show notes because you guys, you got to give them a little look-see.

I promise you they are fun reading. I didn't include everything here for that purpose so you can go listen or go read them. there is just I mean the defense attorney in my opinion was Just the sauciest.

I love them. We love a saucy interme. Because he was right in everything he said.

So he gets real sassy. And he really takes down Macphail.

We're going to see Dr. Macphail. Macphail finally fail.

Yeah, Professor McPhail there. And he's just not taking any shit and it's real fun to watch.

I also just read an email that said if it's spelled M-C-P-H-A-I-L, then it is indeed McPhail.

Oh, yeah, that's not how it's spelled, but that's fun.

The woman who wrote the email was like, that was my ex-husband's last name.

And you are correct. It is said like that.

I love that. It's actually like A-L not A-I-L.

So it's McFall. But whatever. But it's MacPhail in reality.

Yeah. So when we left you in part two...

William Herbert Wallace had just been arrested for the murder of his wife.

I'm honestly pissed about it. I don't think he did it.

I was pissed about it as well. was really angry.

And this was after they had done numerous tests to see what time he had gotten home, what time he had left for Menlove Gardens East.

Quote unquote tests. How long he would have had to commit this crime and also clean himself up clean. the rest of the house up and then get out of there and be seen by someone at the time he was.

Yep. We had a milk boy, Alan Close, who was 14 years old, who originally was like, oh, yeah, I saw him at a quarter to seven.

And then suddenly the police get a hold of him, keep him in there for like three hours and suddenly comes out and his story is totally changed.

Weird! And all the other kids that he had this conversation with who also had seen him at various times and could corroborate the original time... they don't bend, which I love.

Those kids are like, nope, Alan said quarter to seven, like they are not bending to the police in this.

Starting a revolution. These kids, I was like, hell yeah.

I love it. It's like, and they're all like. newspaper boys or girls, they're milk boys or girls, they're dairy boys or girls, they're baked goods. they're all just like they're they are baked goods they are literally muffins they Or a jelly donut.

No, they're just like these kids who are like actually working these jobs. delivering stuff and they're just like this I just like picture them I'm like can we have like a movie or like a mini series just based on this like This just group of like... Yes.

Just rebellious milk kids. Yes. I think that we already did, and I think that was recess on Disney.

I think it was. You know what? We'll take charge of that.

By the way, that's on Disney Plus and please go watch it.

There you go. There you go. That's how my mind works.

Well, and also when we left you, so Wallace had been arrested.

And Perry there, the guy who he worked with who was a pretty good suspect, but nobody was looking into.

The bloody baseball bit. John Parks, the mechanic who found that mitt, had told his boss, you know, this is what I found.

This is kind of strange. They know each other.

Right. The boss had said, you know what, if Wallace is arrested, you need to go forward with that information to kind of help him out.

When he was arrested, John Parks went to the police with that information and the police said, that's cool.

The end. And that was it. They were like, nothing happened.

Cool. Bye. Nothing happened. Didn't look into it at all.

Can you imagine this guy's like, yeah, this guy came in like right around the time that Julia Wallace was murdered. and really wanted me to clean his car at like midnight.

And I found a lot of blood and they're like, okay.

Yeah. Thanks for the info. Thank you for that.

We're not going to write that down or anything.

We'll put it in a file. See you later. Maybe.

Like, okay. Thank you for that help. They just never look, we'll never know why that baseball mitt was bloody or whose blood that was.

I think that was Julia Wallace's. I think so too.

And imagine if they had tested it and it was, that would literally just like, Case, boom, case closed.

Case closed. But they wouldn't have gotten... For some reason, they were just hell-bent on... on getting sex fiend, opium addict, mad scientist, Satanist, Did you see?

William Herbert Wallace. I've shared the morbid podcast meme.

Somebody like made this hilarious Instagram page.

Oh yeah, that Instagram. page is so funny.

I gotta pull it up. They made an edit of William Wallace as like a badass.

Oh my god. MF. Oh, my God. As you talk, I'll show it to you.

See, these are the things about the internet that I'm like, oh, my God, they made another one.

I'm screwed. Screaming. Oh, my God. Live reaction to the one that you just made.

Morbid podcast memes. Morbid podcast memes.

You are a. Treasure. There's another one, though.

Here, look at this. This one's my favorite.

I like the one you did with the fire and the money and the chains.

First of all, you got to follow that page because it's hilarious.

They do an amazing job. and also we'll try to post the photos repost them because they're too good they're too good not to share i'm screaming um So yeah, we'll get more into that whole thing later.

But let's bring us to February 3rd. All right.

We're moving quick because they just arrested him.

Now Wallace is going to be seen in front of a magistrate.

Because, you know, this is how it all goes.

Because England. Now, the prosecuting solicitor at this time was J.R.

Bishop. He gave his opening statements and they included 18 untrue statements.

Yep. How is that allowed? They counted 18 pieces of misinformation in his opening statement.

Wow. And it was just fine. That'll usually lead to a mistrial.

Yeah. Now, in the killing of Julia Wallace, they lay out all 18 of these and they actually like come back with rebuttals for them so i really really suggest you read that book i'm telling you You won't be able to put it down and you will understand why this case could have been 16 episodes if I had really gone.

But I really want you to read the book because the research that person did, Jonathan Goodman, I think it is.

Shite. Hold on. Shite. i want to make sure i made sure it is jonathan goodman i was right you better make Damn sure.

I just wanted to give him his proper due.

So he did amazing research, and I think you definitely need to give that book a buy and a read.

So I'm going to lay out eight of those misstatements because they're just too much.

Yeah, I was going to say, I need to hear at least one or two.

So one of them is he said that he was seen, that Wallace was seen close to his home around seven.

But no, false. Close to seven, he was seen two miles away.

Right. He was seen, like witnesses said that.

Another one is he said that the call from Qualtrough was confirmed to have come from a booth. a phone booth 200 to 300 yards from Wallace's home.

Nope, it was 400 yards. They confirmed that.

Wow. So already it's like, dude, these aren't even like, what are you doing?

That doesn't even matter that much. Just confirm it.

He also said, quote, it would have taken him just as long to get from that call box in time to reach the cafe where he received the message. as did time elapsed between the time the message was received and accused arrived at the cafe.

Now that's just untrue. They never ever even attempted to see if this was true.

Like no tests were done to confirm that.

So this was literal just bullshit he made up on the spot.

Right. Like he just said that statement like it was fact.

To say it. No one looked into that. There was nothing that said that.

He just made it up. We love to hear that.

He also said they confirmed... that the Qualtro call was two different voices.

Somebody used a different voice when they talked to Gladys.

And a different voice when they talk to Beatty.

Right. That's not confirmed. It's just that the two of them said that they heard that they described a different voice, but that's not confirmed.

No. No one's confirmed that two different people or two different voices were used.

Well, realistically, we haven't tracked down Qualtrough, so how would you confirm that?

Exactly. So you can't say that that's confirmed.

If you wanted to say they... think this they described the voices differently that's fine you cannot say it's confirmed it was a different voice right like who confirmed that brother Then he also said, quote, then he says that on arriving at his home, he went to the front door.

That is a curious fact, as he said later that he was always in the habit of going in by the back door.

Nope, that's not true. He said he went to the front door whenever he stayed out late. and during the daylight he went to the back door listening skills are taught in preschool honey Henny.

So, like, he didn't say that. No, no, no.

Then he also said, quote, It is a curious thing that the accused, having gone into the house asked his neighbors to wait in case there was anything wrong.

Nope. The Johnstons insisted that they stay themselves.

He did not ask them to wait. In fact, he told them, no, no, you go.

He did not ask them to wait. Great. So that's false.

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Then they talked about the coat, the Macintosh.

The Macintosh that he apparently wore naked swinging his, you know, business around just killing people.

Wow. Yeah. What a vision that just made my mind.

What a beautiful vision. right so he said quote for some reason He wasn't wearing it later in the day, but he was wearing that earlier in the day.

And he made it seem like, huh, so he was wearing it earlier in the day, but for some reason he wasn't wearing it later.

Well, he answered this directly already.

He that's for some reason is not correct.

It was warmer, right? He said he wore it before lunch because it was raining and cold and later it warmed up and stopped raining so he didn't need it anymore and he went As far to say, I put it on a hook in the hallway and then I put on a lighter fawn-colored coat for the rest of the day.

Yes, get it with your fawn-colored coats.

So this isn't a for some reason. He gave you the fucking reason.

You have it on record. read. And then he said, this last one I'll say is quote, in the bathroom of the house on the first floor, there is a water closet.

And on the top rim of that, there was found a bloodstain, which there's no doubt at all was of the same period of time as the murdered woman's death.

Who said that? It was only confirmed to be human blood.

There was absolutely nothing else that said it was from that.

Or even her blood. You know what I want to say to this guy?

Why are you always lying? Why are you always lying?

Come on. Bishop, shut the hell up. Isn't your job the truth?

It's ridiculous. So Wallace only responded, I am absolutely innocent of these charges.

Because what else is he going to say? They're not going to listen to him anyway.

Well, and he probably doesn't want to say too much anyways because they, like, twist what he said.

So, Wallace hired Hector Monroe as his lawyer for the defense during this.

Was that a good choice or a bad choice? It's a good choice.

So his defense team really did the damn thing for him.

Okay. And Monroe was like the lead defense attorney for this moment.

Monroe actually went around himself to Wallace's neighborhood talking to everyone. to try to get anything to tell him there was a sighting of Julia Wallace after the milk boy saw her.

Of course, eventually, James Caird, who was the guy that he did chess with.

He was one of the guys that was there when the call happened.

He walked home with him that night. James Caird had a son, his son named Kenneth. said that he had met with Alan Close, his son, and he said, yeah, He told us that he saw her at 645.

Like, he said that to us. That is for sure.

None of us got that wrong. So Monroe talked to Kenneth and he confirmed it to him.

He said, my memory is very clear of this.

And he said, I came home and told my mother.

That's how clear it was. Right. No doubt.

And he said there were a few other children, like we said, that knew this and had heard it too.

That sucks because then those people probably started to feel crazy.

Exactly. And so, and he's telling this to Monroe, the defense attorney, because he's like, yeah, we want to help.

Like we're trying here. These were the kids obviously that were talking about it before we talked about it in part two.

Yeah. So we tracked them down. They all agreed.

And remember Douglas Metcalf? He was one of the kids.

And he was actually the one to be like, Alan, you have to go to the police with this.

He was like the one that was like really pushing that.

Yeah. While Monroe went to talk to him, he confirmed it again.

What I saw and what I heard, I will not go back on it.

And he said, I told him to go tell the police.

That's how much it rings in my head. Yeah.

Now, what he did say, he gave he gave an accurate description and he said on the night of the murder.

I was in the parochial hall in Richmond Park giving Mr. Davies, the caretaker, a paper, and there was a lantern lecture going on.

I asked one of the men the time as I wanted to go to a football match, and he said it was 25 to 7.

I then had to go across to Campbell's Dance Hall in Richmond Park, and when I came out of there, I talked to some boys for a very short time. and then walk down the passage into Wolverton Street.

I had just crossed over over to 23 Wolverton Street, when I saw a boy named Allison Wildman walking down the entry towards Redbourne Street.

So now he's introducing another boy into this scenario.

Yes. So now he's like, I got to go. Which Monroe?

I'm like, get it. Because Monroe's like, all right, I got to go talk to Wildman now.

Right. So he tracks down Allison Wildman.

He was 16 years old. He said he always looked at the Holy Trinity clock on his route.

And on the night of the murder, he looked at it at 25 to 7.

He said it takes him two minutes from there to Wolverton Street, and he had said to his mother that the next morning...

He or excuse me, he had said to his mother the next morning this like scenario.

Yeah. Because he had heard about Julia's murder.

And so he was just kind of recounting his night to her, being like, oh, yeah, it was right there when that was going on.

Yeah. So he said, quote, When I delivered the paper at 27 Wolverton Street, it would be about 22 to 23 minutes to 7.

The door of number 29 Wolverton Street, that's Julia's door. was wide open and a milk boy was standing on the top step with two or three cans in his hand.

He was wearing a collegiate cap. When I left the milk boy was still standing there.

Now, Alan Close went to the collegiate school, was wearing that hat that night.

Everyone confirmed it. Even he confirmed it.

So that was Alan Close standing there at the exact time that he originally said he was.

Yes, I believe Dallin. So everybody is, this is all confirming this.

Right. All the kids are agreeing. But they'll come up with something to dismantle it.

A guy named David Jones also was somebody who delivered papers.

He was older, he wasn't like a teenager.

And Monroe spoke to him, too, because he's going to get the full... He wants as many people saying that they saw him as possible.

Yeah. He said the night of the murder, he delivered the newspaper at around 635 and put it in the Wallace's letterbox.

The paper was found later open on the kitchen table, so either she or Wallace took it from the door and brought it to the kitchen, Which would mean she was likely alive at the time.

Because obviously he's probably not going to go grab the paper and open it up and put it on...

In the middle of murder. Yeah. He said that night he was seen by the police at this time.

And he had also spoken to them about something and told him, he also told him this account of his timeline.

Because he was like, I wanted to try to help.

So he's like, I informed them of this. I don't know why they're saying we haven't.

He's like, they just didn't care. He's like, we've all talked to them about this.

We've all given our timelines to try to help here.

But they won't listen. I don't know why they're pretending they don't know this.

So Monroe learned that they were not added, none of these kids, And this guy, David Jones, none of them were added to the list of witnesses by the prosecution.

Wow. Wow. What? That is fake AF. That's crazy.

So he tried, Monroe tried to have them added because technically... Because why wouldn't you?

There's no reason they shouldn't be at it.

There's nothing to exclude them as witnesses.

But... The police went into their backgrounds to try to exclude them as witnesses.

That's how far they're going here. What is wrong with these people?

Well, and unfortunately for the police, they found that they were clear They just didn't, but they didn't add them.

I just don't understand going so hard at someone who like has no criminal background whatsoever.

I think because they didn't want to do real police work.

Yeah, for sure. They wanted this buttoned up and they wanted to go, yep, he murdered his wife.

The end. Let's move on. But it's like, you're gonna have a dangerous murderer on the loose if you don't deal with this.

Now, with all this information, all these timelines being confirmed, This is actually decreasing the amount of time that he had to kill Julia and then leave for Menloved Gardens.

Yeah. At first, they figured he was only going to have 18 minutes, which is not a lot of time.

To get there, kill her. Brutally. Clean up.

Clean himself so that there's not a drip of blood anywhere else in the house and not- the toilet and not a drip on him right none in 18 minutes well now it decreased to 12 minutes He would have had 12 minutes, which is ridiculous.

And then the other thing that you think of is like they're saying that he was wearing that jacket when he killed her.

And it's like, but she fell on the floor obviously at some point.

Then you're telling me that he like lifted her back up while naked and like stuffed the jacket under her?

Exactly, just shoved it underneath her. That's stupid.

And then just walked out naked. it doesn't make and it wouldn't be like because you can see in the picture like the jacket is like laying very flat exactly like or laid very flat like it was on her shoulder right and she felt like it's not that somebody stuffed it it's strange as fuck yeah Well, and remember, this is still like the initial hearing.

So they're basically doing this to see if they're going to go to trial.

The judge has to decide whether they go to trial with a jury or if he's going to make the decision.

Gotcha. Now they bring McPhail onto the stand during this.

And, you know, he's getting grilled because he's just bullshit.

Because he's a failure. So he said, quote, I relied mainly on postmortem rigidity. but this evidence was corroborated by my observation at 9.50 of the large blood clot on the edge of the hearth rug. from which there was a small amount of serum exudation, the appearance of which was very characteristic. the evidence of the blood clot.

So he is saying the separation of a tiny amount of serum out of a blood clot confirms the four-hour death mark.

This is bullshit. Again? Bullshit. More bullshit?

The amount of blood. was a variable here, that it's going to change things.

It's not going to, He loves to say definitively things.

Nothing, rarely in forensic science is something so definitively infinitive like you can be like 100 of the time this means that it is four hours yeah Rare, that's not a thing.

Because even hair and stuff, you look at hair and it's a 98% match to you and 17 other people.

Humans and the world around us by nature are variable.

Yeah. too much variance around us for anything to really be 100%. confirmed quick say variable again variable so say crack crack So the amount of blood is the thing here that really changes this.

So it was so much blood. that the weight easily could squeeze some serum out prematurely.

Because there was so much blood that it's like all weighing on each other.

I hate blood. Another doctor. Dr. Robert Koop said the amount of serum that was actually there didn't even indicate four hours, probably no more than three.

He said, I wouldn't even put it, he said three is like the absolute max I would even put it at.

Wow. And he and Dr. James Henry Dibble, who was a professor of pathology at the University of Liverpool, did an experiment.

Heyo! So a man in the area... when they found all this out, had just killed himself in around town.

And they ran to the morgue as soon as they found this out.

This is how badass they are. And he was brought to that morgue and they immediately sat down when he was brought in and they observed his head wound because he had a massive head wound.

They watched the changes in the blood for hours.

What? They just sat there and watched him. and watched the blood clot, watched what the serum did.

That would drive you like absolutely bonkers, I feel.

That sounds awesome. To just be able to, like, because you're doing it for the name of science.

Like, it's, like, such a cool experiment.

If you could see Elena's face right now.

You're just, like, watching it. This Bitch loves science.

That's so cool. I mean, science is cool.

Yeah, like you can just watch it happen in front of you.

Oh, hell yeah. So in two and a half hours, there was a, quote, very abundant amount of serum that squeezed from the blood in the head.

Two and a half hours. Right. So this proved the estimate of death could be off by at least two hours.

That's a lot of hours to be off by. Because hers wasn't even a lot of serum.

Exactly. And a very abundant amount was coming out. at two and a half hours because of how much blood there was.

And so two hours, Of course, in real, like, now, you know, estimate of death is always a huge estimate.

And that's fine. But they're hinging this entire Well, they're saying definitively like it happened four hours ago for sure.

And this is all they're using. His estimate of death is where they are laying all of their ducks.

All of them are going there. Because they're saying, this is when he left, this is when he did it.

So if he's off by this much, it throws everything into question.

Of course. It's insane. They said they couldn't give a time after they did this experiment because they were like, we're still not going to give a time of when Julia was killed.

Because we can't even give a time. But they were like, it is certainly not four hours.

That is for sure. And they said they knew the variables were just too much to give a definitive time.

And they are responsible. So they're like, we're not going to. tell you something just because we want it to fit a narrative.

Right. But they said it could absolutely 100% have happened after Wallace left.

They were like, 100%. By that serum it shows.

Yeah. So that... throws it into question, but apparently everyone was like, oh, okay, whatever.

Now, that's so frustrating. Bishop did his follow-up statement, the prosecutor.

And he put more misinformation in that one.

So he just followed it up with more. During this whole thing, there were tons of flare-ups between all the councils.

Hundreds of people had showed up for these.

It was like a circus. It was one of the first... trial that was really like everyone's coming to watch kind of thing So it was just a crazy mayhem, basically.

Now, one of the last witnesses that they brought up was inspector gold and he was on scene at one point during the day And he was on stand one day and was asked about the fact that he had only produced and referred to one diary of Wallace's. in one entry talking about the Qualtrough Call, but they weren't really rehearsing. referencing anything else it's like and they weren't referencing the fact that they had multiple diaries So the defense asked, are the police in possession of the other diaries?

Where do you only have one? He took three other diaries out of his coat pocket. and he just said these are business diaries kept by the accused and they were like You can't just have that in your pocket.

You can't just take shit evidence out of your pocket, bro.

Like, what? So he got frazzled because they were like, what?

And he was like... How do you not know that's wrong?

And then he said, there's an entry relating to a falling out with his wife on January 7th, 1928.

And they were like, Cool, that's not admissible because you may have written that yourself at this point.

And the defense was like, Okay, one entry where he's like, we got in an argument in all these years ago.

Right. And then, so then the defense was like, okay, motherfucker, because we have looked at the diaries.

So he was like, so the defense was like, okay, December 5th, 1930.

You want to tell us about that entry? That entry was a time when Julia was coming home late. and Wallace was so worried about her that he ended up calling the police. and it said quote I went back home and found her ladyship had just turned up because he had gone out to look for her her ladyship It seems a laundry van had been smashed up on the railway line.

The train derailed and the line blocked.

Julia waited at Southport Station until after 10 o'clock, and as she had apparently no hope of getting a train, she decided to take a bus.

She arrived in Liverpool at 12.30 and reached home at 1.

It was a relief to know she was safe and sound, for I was getting apprehensive. fearing that she might have been run over by a motor car or something.

Then they They read the entry in court, that exact thing.

They were like, you need to read this. As they read it, he put his face in his hands and sobbed.

Oh, because he missed her so much. Because he was probably sitting there being like, here I was that night thinking something terrible happened to her.

Yeah. And like, look what happened. right you know like in here and i'm sitting here being accused he very clearly loves his wife Yeah.

So Wallace did get to have his final statement in this initial hearing.

I love Wallace he said quote I plead not guilty to the charge made against me and I am advised to reserve my defense I would like to say that my wife and I lived together on the very happiest terms during the period of some 18 years of our married life.

Our relations were of complete confidence in and affection for each other.

The suggestion that I murdered my wife is monstrous. that I should attack and kill her is to all who know me unthinkable. and the more so when it must be realized that I could not possibly obtain one advantage by committing such a deed. nor do the police suggest that I gained any advantage.

On the contrary, In actual fact, I have lost a devoted and loving comrade.

My home life is completely broken up and everything that I hold dear has been ruthlessly parted and torn from me.

I am now to face the torture of this nerve-wracking ordeal.

I protest once more that I am entirely innocent of this terrible crime.

Oh my god. So he's literally like, I've lost my comrade.

Like, I've lost everything. Like, I've lost my partner in life.

Yeah. That is devastating. And now you're going to throw me in fucking prison.

So the judge hears this and says, we're going to trial.

You're shitting me. Nope. So remember, the rumors that are being brought into this whole thing are things like he was a follower of Alistair Crowley and he was also a Satanist.

Yeah, for sure. With no basis. He was an opium addict, a sex addict, was fucking every girl in town.

He had husbands all over him about it. You know what's even more stressful than a packed calendar?

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The sale ends 831. Don't miss it. He insured Julia with a ton of cash to make sure he got a hefty payout.

In reality, it was only a 20-pound life insurance policy, which barely covered the cost of the funeral.

The press said he was probably banging his sister-in-law, Amy.

Absolutely no. Amy was like, nah, love the brother.

What the hell? Then there was the added one that said, well, she was very sick Julia.

And somebody said, well, they must have found out she had a terminal disease.

And he killed her to end her suffering. In that brutal of a way?

I don't think so. That's the first thing I thought of.

And then if you read anything about this, people are like, who even came up with that?

They're like... to like youth like euthanasia is supposed to be like this peaceful peaceful experience you end the suffering yeah peacefully you He's gonna take whatever he took, like a fire poker, and wail her over the head a bunch of times? multiple times no I don't think that's how that went bludgeoning versus like yeah You know, it's just insane to me.

So in the so when it comes to the trial, Wallace needed funding to pay for his defense.

And he got it out of a lot of places. People were willing to give to his defense.

I would have paid for that shit. His younger brother, Joseph, who was married to Amy, the sister-in-law, he's apparently having a very steep Right.

Like, why would my brother pay for that if he thinks that I'm having a fucking affair with his wife? life exactly he he came forward and helped pay for it i mean friends of his did and then also his trade union came forward and paid first part of his defense.

Stop. Which is interesting. the Prudential Staff Union paid for it.

And this is crazy because the executive council of the union actually, they didn't initially do it.

They had a mock trial to see where they thought he would land in that.

And they were like... We gotta pay for this.

They decided unanimously that he was innocent during this mock trial.

Wow. So they contributed a hefty donation. to his defense.

That's awesome. And interestingly, this is the first time a trade union did this for someone who is not on trial for like work and union related shit yeah so this is a totally different thing they've never done this February 19th, 1931, the committal proceedings started.

So this is basically... So now that they've decided they're going to trial...

Now, this hearing is so that they can tell whether the judge is just going to make the decision or a jury is going to be involved in the trial. know there's like several steps um so all witnesses were brought forward the johnstons all the chess-playing guys, the people he talked to on that ill-fated Men Love Gardens journey.

Oh, man. Men don't love gardens. Love gardens.

But they didn't talk to any of the tram conductors. who talked to him, saw him, know their schedules, have record of their schedules.

Right. And could give them a lot of information.

I wonder why they didn't talk to those people.

Probably because they didn't want real information.

Well, that's... And to me... You could find these people.

It's not that they can't track them down.

No, they're tram conductors. They have to go to work.

You could just get them at work. They lurk in.

They don't want their timeline fucked. No.

They have a very specific narrative they're going with.

Right. And as we will see, anyone who tries to have anything to do with telling the truth, they don't want to hear.

Why can't the defense bring in, like, the train conductors?

I... It's... It's a weird process. It's a weird process.

So I don't know, even back then, like you have to agree on all the witnesses that are going to be.

Yeah, it's a whole bunch of legal mumbo jumbo, but the prosecution really just relied on Yep.

They relied on MacPhail. And they relied on that conversation that Wallace had with Beatty.

When he was, after he had been in, he had been talking to the police in the police station for a while.

Yeah. Wallace came out, he saw Beatty, and Beatty was like, please don't talk to me about anything because I'm scared.

And he was like, can you just like try to help me get closer to the seventh, like where that time was that Qualtrough called you? you.

I just need a better time. And when he was talking about this, he later said, because of course the police took this as he's trying to the timeline, which is like, no, that's you guys.

But... He later said like, you know, that was an indiscretion.

And what he was meaning was I just, I'm nervous and I shouldn't have done that.

That's how I took it. But of course they took it to a different place.

So what the prosecution said is, quote, now you may think. that the that that request to mr baity to try to remember the exact time of the telephone call and this subsequent conversation with the police rather suggests that the prisoner at that time was already very much on the defensive.

Why should he imagine himself in any danger?

He's asking, why is he wondering whether he's in any danger?

What does he mean by saying when he was asked what might have been a perfectly simple question of Mr. Beatty, quote, I have an idea.

We all have ideas. It was indiscreet of me.

The facts are, as the Crown suggests, that it was indiscreet of him That was an admirable description of that conversation.

There was one other curious feature about that conversation with Mr. Beatty.

He said to Mr. Beatty that he had just left the police when he asked those questions, and he said, quote, they have cleared me.

At that time no charge whatsoever had been made against him, certainly nothing that had been said to him to suggest that they had suspected him. and he was now cleared, not at all.

That's bullshit. That dude, Wallace, was kept in police headquarters and interrogated for literally 12 hours at a time.

Right. they were sitting there being like, hey, do you often Worship Satan in your crazy mad scientist lab while you smoke opium and beat your wife?

And then go fuck your sister-in-law? They are literally being like, you are the only suspect.

We're not looking at anyone else. You did it.

We know you did it. And we're going to prove that you did it.

Of course when he leaves he's like, shit, they cleared me, cool.

Because they didn't even ask follow-up questions on when he said like oh i do know who could have done this and it was that the bloody baseball they didn't do anything about He was clearly a suspect for him to write for this fucking prosecutors to suggest to these people.

He was never even a suspect until that moment.

That it's insane for Wallace. To think that he was under suspicion is so beyond the realm of thought.

It's like he's on Saturn somewhere. That's insane.

Like, I would have, I could never be in this fucking courtroom because I'd be like, are you fucking kidding me?

Like, I would have been losing my shit. It's just insane.

So they're going to trial. They're going to trial by jury.

So April 22nd, 1931, the trial begins at St.

George's Hall in Liverpool. The judge is Justice Robert Aderson Wright.

He was a good judge, and he does his best in this trial.

I will give it to him. Okay. But I will say it's interesting.

He wanted to rush this a little bit. Because he had he was going to be like and he had to be in court by like the next week.

So he wanted it done like quick. Yeah. Like, let's rush through this.

Which is not usually how murder trials should go.

Yeah. So Roland Oliver is the head of the defense now, and he is awesome.

Okay, cool. He does great. And the new prosecution head is...

Edward Hemmard. He's the Crown Prosecutor.

Okay. He's a lot. He gives a two-hour opening statement.

Far too much. Yeah. No one is listening after a certain point in time.

And he immediately... He went hard with that.

He wore that coat over his clothing to protect his clothes. theory and he changed he's the one who changed that too he was naked wearing only a coat and he probably got off on it because sex totally thing for sure totally went there love to kill people while naked no i've never even heard of that happening No, that's a very insane thing to suggest here.

Yeah. Especially with no evidence. Like, are you real?

So the prosecution opening statement ended with, quote, Without an apparent enemy in the world, she goes to her account, And if you think that the case is fairly proved against this man, that brutally and wantonly he sent this unfortunate woman to her account,

It will be your duty to call him to his account.

Now, interestingly, I just thought it was interesting he kept using his account, her account, his account. her account.

I found a ton of Bible verses and sermons that use that kind of language.

Does account mean like your death? I think like you're, yeah.

It just was like interesting that it's like a very Bible, very sermon kind of thing to do.

I don't know if he was trying to appeal to a certain demographic here or what.

Well, and in England at that time, too, wasn't there no separation of church and state? it was I think it was intentional for sure that he kept using that I just thought it was interesting Mm hmm.

Well, and he's building his whole case that this was like sex related to.

Exactly. So I think you're right. Exactly.

I think he's trying to like really hammer that.

Uh huh. So they brought Beatty onto the stand, and when asked on the stand if Qualtrough's voice was anything like Wallace's, They were like, could it even be that he was putting on a voice?

He said, no. And he said it would be a massive, massive stretch for it to be his voice, even if he was faking it.

It was nothing like his voice. It's so funny because in the beginning of the story, you're like, oh shit.

I know you're like, did he change his voice?

But then you're like, Oh, no. Well, and then James Caird also confirmed that Wallace was not a violent man.

So he was like, doesn't make any sense to him, he went on the stand too.

He called him a, quote, placid man. And he also said that Julia and Wallace were, quote, a very happy couple.

He was like, I've never seen anything else.

Now they bring Alan close up. Is that the delivery boy who they, like, scared?

Who they turned. Uh-huh. So he went along with the prosecutor's story, of course.

I wonder what they threatened. And he was very, he was very like, sure of himself.

Like he was having a blast up there. Cause he's like, fuck, I'm like, yeah like the police like me you know like you could tell he was just like yeah like dude the police wanted you to lie.

Exactly. Well, and so he's going along with it.

He's getting the positive attention from the prosecutor because he's answering all the things because he has to They gave him his story.

So when the prosecutor started asking him So then when the, excuse me, when the defense started asking further questions about multiple other children who saw who he saw who saw him and who he actually interacted with that night he started getting a little nervous.

Because they didn't prepare him for that.

In fact, he started fidgeting. and then his voice went so quiet that they could barely hear what he was saying.

AKA, he was lying. Yeah, in fact, several times the judge was like, I literally don't know what you're saying.

Like, I can't hear you. So he wasn't prepared for it because the story was given to him to be answered in the prosecutor's favor by the police. what the defense was going to ask.

So when the defense started poking little holes in the story, he was not ready for that.

They did not prepare him for that. Right.

So he lied several times and was caught in lies several times.

He confused himself. He conflicted his own statements.

He told defense he didn't know that the papers had said that Wallace had left his home at 615. because that was what was printed in the papers.

Then he told the prosecution five minutes later that he did know that.

So even the judge was like, you just said you didn't know that.

Yeah. Like, that's a lie. You're not a good witness.

So it was totally blown. This was a huge blow to the prosecution.

Which is good. Because it was very blatant that this kid was turned by the police.

I know, I feel like I want to be mad at him, but I also feel a little bad for him because he's a little kid.

He's 14. And they probably like threatened his family.

They probably scared the shit out of him.

Yeah. Of course he's going to think he's like a tough guy because he's getting all this positive attention. from the police from the prosecutors and then the defense comes up and is like hey little boy let me drop the hammer and he's like oh shit yeah So he got mixed up in like a really shitty thing.

Poor kid. So that was day one. So day two, they bring in the Johnstons.

Okay, they didn't really have a ton with the Johnstons because the Johnstons were just like, we were there, we told you our story.

They both did agree, though, when they looked at crime scene photos, they were like, all of the furniture has been moved.

And that coat isn't where it was. What? So they both were like, that's in.

Of course, the prosecutor's like, what? What are you talking about?

That's how it was. And they were like. no no we were there and they both agreed they were like they moved to that shit Why would they move it?

To make it fit more with McPhail's version of events.

That's so weird. Yeah. Now, they also brought... That's so fucked, too.

Sorry. They also brought Constable Williams, who had arrived on scene early that day.

They brought him on stand. Didn't he come like shit-faced?

He was, no, not him. That was more. So Williams was the one that he knocked on the door and Mrs. Johnston went to open it and she couldn't open the door.

Sure. So then Wallace kind of reached over her and opened the door for her and was like, it got stuck.

Yeah. Now, Wallace had said that door was bolted and that's why it wasn't opening for her and he had to unbolt it.

So what happened was both said, so Constable Williams and Mrs. Johnston said they didn't see the bolt.

They didn't see that it was bolted, so they couldn't say whether or not it was.

Okay. They're not saying it wasn't. They're just like, we didn't see it either way.

So either way, it wouldn't open until Wallace opened it that day for him.

This was kind of to bring to light the idea from the prosecution that the front door was not bolted. like Wallace had suggested it was.

Yeah. That he was lying about that. And basically they're trying to poke the hole in like you could have entered through the front door that night when you first arrived on scene, But you were lying and you wanted to bring them around to the back.

Mm-hmm. It's like a little weird thing that they're trying to concentrate on here.

But when they asked Williams, they were like, did you hear a bolt open? right because he was like I heard fumbling on the other side of the door obviously they couldn't open it right So they were like, did you hear a bolt being opened?

And he said, no, he didn't hear a bolt being opened.

So they took that as like, Boom, he lied.

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Start your free trial in Apple Podcasts Spotify or the Wondery app so in fact hammer um what is it hammered is that what i said it was it's like yeah h-e-m-m-e-r-d-e It almost looks like Hammer Day, but I'd say Hammered.

Hammered, yeah. So Hammered looked at the jury once he was like, yeah, I didn't hear a bolt open.

He looked at the jury and said, there, what did I tell you? that there was a bolt i want to be on this kind of chaotic journey jury where it's just like He's like, he gets absolutely nothing out of them.

And then he's like, see? Boom. Jury men and women.

Smoking gun. Did you hear that? Like blood on his hands.

Because he didn't. He didn't hear it. Did you hear it?

Like, I'd be like, fuck yeah. Like, I'd be like, this is awesome.

I feel like I don't know what's happening here.

It's so chaotic. I love chaotic energy. It's amazing.

But Williams did have another moment. He said initially he was the one who got Wallace's statement at the scene.

And he said, and then I didn't sit down and write it down until hours later.

Now in it, he said that Wallace told him Julia had walked him out to the backyard. and then and had like let him through the gate and then she had walked back in to bolt the door when he left right But Wallace said, that's untrue.

I never said she walked me to the gate. I never said she came out of the house and walked me out.

I said she let me out the door and that was it.

Right. Now. When pressed, Williams said, quote, I thought of the probability that someone snuck into the home when they were separated. saying goodbye at the gate.

Okay, so this was huge and kind of unintentionally awesome for the defense.

Yeah. Because now a police witness is suggesting that someone else could have snuck in while Wallace and them were saying goodbye.

He's literally being like, that's when someone could have gone in the door.

Because she even walked through part of an alley with him.

Yeah. So it's like this all was kind of like, even though Wallace is being like, yeah, I didn't say that in my initial.

He's like, well. Could happen. It kind of works in your favor, bro.

Yeah, right? Let's go with it. It was just really... This is what's so funny about this trial is like... all this weird shit happens where, like, someone is helping someone unintentionally.

Right. So then McFail gets brought up. Bro.

And it's a real shit show. Yeah. Is he like on opium?

He's like a total showman. Like, he loves this shit.

Like, he's leaning back, like, yeah. I am, like, not nervous at all.

And, you know, the prosecution loves him.

But then the defense... rose to start their cross-examination.

And he talked to the prosecution, he answered their questions, nothing really... super interesting or anything, just the same bullshit.

But then as soon as they sit down and Oliver rises up to give his cross-examination...

All of a sudden he's like, wait a second.

He like interrupts. which is like, what are you doing?

And he's holding a note and he says that it's important insight he had gathered into the mental state of the person who committed this crime.

And he thinks it's important to tell you right now. as you're about to start your cross-examination.

So even the judge was like, what the fuck?

Like, what does that have to do with anything?

You don't submit evidence, sir. No, and he's like, you didn't submit it.

Like, you can't do that. Yeah. You can't bring it to life now.

On the stand, right. Put that away. So he's like, shut up and let the defense ask their questions.

The judge was like, I'm annoyed with you right now.

Right. But it turned into kind of a pissing match, where Hemmard is being like, no!

This is important. We should say it. And Oliver's like, I need to start my, like, this is a literal, like, if I was on that jury, I would have had popcorn.

I would have been like this. That's fucking awesome.

Right. But so MacPhail and Hemmard are just ignoring the judge, like just still talking.

And Hemmard just goes, well, just give us a quick summary.

Just quickly, just give us a summary. Like literally being like, say it, say it. say it, get it out there because even if it can't be brought into official evidence, Say it out loud so the jury hears it because they can't get it.

They can't wash it out of their ear holes.

Right. Say it. So anyways. On the defense's time, this is on the defense's time, he quickly said he believed the person who did this was in a frenzy.

And that would make the jury see immediately that the This absence of motive that they're trying to hold on to on the defense.

They don't need it. You don't need that now because if he's in a frenzy, he didn't need a motive.

Oh, cool. They loved each other. That's fine.

He was in a frenzy. Right. Like that was all that was literally just to fuck up.

Oliver's defense. But over what? Well, that's the whole thing.

So they're saying... There doesn't need to be a motive.

All of that is moot now. He just snapped.

He's just a frenzied crazy dude. That's what their whole thing is.

No motive needed anymore. We've just taken that away.

So then what did the defense do? So Oliver, because Oliver's great, was like, okay, dude.

But you know that he has been under mental evaluation the entire time he's been in custody.

Yeah. Correct. And MacPhail was like, yeah, I know that.

And he said, quote, then if this is the work of a maniac.

And he is a sane person. He did not do that.

Is that right? Because he's like, you are saying this is an insane person who did this, frenzied, insane person.

You just admitted to me that you know he's been under mental evaluation and he has been declared sane.

Right. So by that logic... He couldn't have done this.

He is a sane person. You are saying it is a frenzied crazy person who did this.

Not the same. So you're literally saying he couldn't have done it, right?

Like apples and zucchinis. And he just answers.

He may be saying no. What? And then when pressed about it, he said, He kept going, I've seen this exact thing many times.

I've seen it happen many times. But Oliver just demolished him.

He was like, no. And he kept putting on there... He kept being like...

No. So you're saying that for 52 years of his life, he has been a perfectly sane person. without any hint of mental illness or any kind of frenzied behavior.

Yeah. 52 years of his life. And then in the span of 12 minutes... He suddenly lost his shit... frenzied, kills his wife in the most brutal fashion for no fucking reason at all, with no nothing.

And then immediately after those 12 minutes, boom, he's sane again.

And then he's sane completely until now.

If you had a break, and he was frenzied when he killed her, He would be, like, sad afterwards, I would think.

I don't think he would have a break and then immediately go back into Sane.

No, I've never heard of that. He would have had immediately, 12 minutes would be the only time that this frenzied, insane behavior would have happened.

I feel like it usually lasts a little bit longer.

And it's like the Johnstons show up and he's perfectly like, giving reasonable answers he's right having emotions he's but he's got himself together like right No!

And Oliver kept pushing that, and MacPhail is trying to hang on it, and even the judge was just like, shut the fuck up.

You got to get off the stand, bro. It's clearly not.

So then Oliver just continues like harshing this dude's mellow.

Of course. He keeps doing it. He got him to admit, because he kept hammering him about that rigor mortis, and how he was like... okay, you are hinging this time of death on that rigor mortis.

You really put it on there. he got him to admit that although you should check the progression of rigor mortis every quarter of an hour, to make sure that your assessment lines up with the progression that is happening, because things can change, variables.

He said he never rechecked it. He never took even one note about the rigor mortis.

There's not one record that he took of what the rigor mortis was what it looked like or any of the progression that day that's unreal So he didn't do his job that day, is what you're saying.

So you literally checked it. when you walked in and that was it, you never rechecked it, you didn't see if it broke, you didn't see if it progressed, you didn't see if If it changed, you didn't see if the temperature was doing anything to it.

Nothing. Right. No. And he was like, well, isn't that kind of fucked?

And he's like, that's verbatim. Isn't that kind of fucked?

He said that on the stand. And he's like, no.

It's fine. No, he said nah. Nah. Nah, it's fine.

Isn't that kind of fucked? So Oliver killed him on that too.

Right. That was just another blow. Like, you look like a fucking idiot.

So then they bring up the clot. Oh, that clot.

Oh man, that clot really. So he, Oliver like tricked him with this, which is fun.

I love a trick. And again, I'll poist. I'll poist.

I will poist. I will poist that. I'm going to post the court transcripts so you can really see like how this all goes down.

Right. It's so good. Drama. So first Oliver asks about clotting of blood.

And, you know, he gets that information.

And then he says, you know... And MacPhail admits that serum doesn't exude much in the first few hours.

Then he said blood clots somewhere in five, six, or even ten minutes.

That's when it starts clotting. Yeah. So Oliver said, if interfered with, it would break up, would it not?

And he says, yes. And Oliver says, or splash, would it not?

And he says... And he's like, what? Like, I don't understand what you're asking me.

And Oliver says, let us say... dropped on a hard substance.

I would suggest it would be at least an hour. before you could take a clot and drop it on, say, a table without smashing it.

Yeah. So MacPhail says a clot would smash up even then, even after an hour.

So Oliver says, let me take a clot 3 16ths wide and 1 8th of an inch high. which happens to be the clot that was found in the bathroom, the exact dimensions.

I don't know if you caught that. Well, that is fresh and newly clotted.

If you were to drop that onto, say, a lavatory pan.

It would spread out, would it not? And he says, yes.

Now, at this point... he still wasn't catching on.

Right. So he's like, yes. And Oliver says, what I am putting to you is that it would take at least an hour before a clot of blood would be sufficiently solid. not to flatten when it was dropped onto that laboratory pan.

And he goes, no. So you just said, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

And then you. And then just says no. No.

And he goes, well, how long? And he answered.

And I guess he was like, um, and like kind of stumbled.

And then he all of a sudden just goes, an hour.

So he just admitted. So he got got. So he got got.

He got got. That would have been one of those things where you would have been like... from the juries like i would be like oh shit they brought their air horns to the day I would have lost it on the jury.

This is so fun to read. I was reading this shit literally just like throwing the book down and being like, John!

Let me tell you about how Oliver just owned McFall.

And he's like, who are these people? John's like, I'm... What?

And I'm like... The clot. Remember the clot I told you about the bathroom?

And he's like, ah. He's like, no. Sure. And afterwards, he's like, that's so cool, hon.

John's like, what's for dinner? So cool.

I'm so glad Oliver owned him. Yeah. in 1930.

That's great for morbid, huh? That's awesome.

I'm like, yeah! He's like, call Ash. And he's like, please stop.

So he then asked about the possibility that the police brought that blood up there accidentally while they were traipsing around.

Right. And McFall agreed. He said he would accept that as a possibility.

All right. So we're getting somewhere. Then he was asked about it, so then the judge is like, so yeah, The judge is just confirming, so it totally could have been the police bringing that up there.

No. And he's like... No, it wasn't brought up by the police.

And even the judge was like, you just said it might have been like the judge.

Am I losing it? And he said, quote, sure it was possible, but no police went up there.

That's... That's such a lie... Yeah, that's not true at all.

That it almost makes you question whether, like, your... I'm like, what?

Is this the same case I've been reading?

It's documented that at least four police officers went up there.

Yeah, because they went upstairs also to account for the money that was in all the handbags and stuff.

Police officers, Wallace, the Johnstons, all went up there. before that blood was found.

Right. So that's just a lie. So they just caught him in that too.

And the judge is literally like shaking his head like, What the fuck?

I would declare not. I'd be like, you're all insane.

This is not. My declaration would be nah.

So Detective Superintendent Moore is the one that they... pulled out of a pub to come to the scene.

Yes. Oh, here we go. Is he shit face today too?

He said the absence of blood on Wallace's shoes actually wasn't a good thing for him.

It was actually more reason to convict him because he didn't have blood on his shoes because he knew where the blood was when he showed up.

And he just didn't step in it because he did it.

So of course he knew where the blood was.

It's not going to step in it. I don't understand that rationale.

And you're like, wowzer. That doesn't make sense.

I hope you did some stretches before you took that fucking leap.

Yeah. Because holy... So he was also very combative with the defense.

He did not like being questioned. And he wouldn't give them a straight answer.

He would just do the yes or no. Many times he would be like, I don't remember or I don't recall. a shitty witness.

When Oliver asked him about Wallace, he was like, well, did Wallace, was he cooperative with the police?

Initially, he was like, no, he wasn't. But then Oliver was like, Well, weird, because I have a deposition from you right here.

Can I read it to you? Oh my God. And he's like in that deposition, he says the exact opposite.

He says he was very cooperative, very helpful, answered all our questions, was there when we needed him.

So then his response to this after being confronted with that fucking lie, he goes, well, like he answered our questions.

So he was cooperative. And then he goes, and he was there if we had questions and he would answer them.

Cooperative. That's helpful. dumb ass. We were like, so what did he do that wasn't cooperative?

I'm like, did you think we meant like, was he helpful?

Like, did he, you know, rotate all your mattresses and like...

Did he tighten up all the loose piping in your house?

Like, did he touch up the molding? Like... no we're literally asking you did he and that's all we're saying answer your questions did you show up when you needed them to like Yes and yes.

Okay, cooperation. So Oliver literally said, which is why I love Oliver, his response to this was...

You do not want to concede a point to the defense if you can help it, huh?

I love it. He's like, let me just call this as I see it.

So you literally don't even want to give us a point.

Right. Right. So that was day two. Wow. Day three.

How many days is this? Only three. So randomly on day three, they decided to bring up the city analyst, which is the forensic expert.

But he is not a medical professional. He is not an ME.

He is just the... analyst like he looks at scenes all that um so why is he here They basically were like, your testimony is really not valid because you're not a medical professional.

So they were like, you can't speak on medical. things.

You can speak on other parts of this, but not on medical things, because that's not who you are.

So this guy goes up on this stand and he's like, well, guys, I did an experiment myself and I need to share the findings with you.

You can't. Because it's really pertinent.

So he said, you know, I was really disturbed by that blood clot in the laboratory pan.

Fucking blood clot. clock which to which i say me too like same we've all heard we're all disturbed by it The one that they are exhaustively going over for no fucking reason because it really has no bearing on anything.

And he said, quote, when fresh blood drops from a height of 15 inches, it forms a little clot And when that dries, it clots together and makes a blob.

A blob. So Oliver. Is that like the language surrounding that?

Blob. So Oliver said, quote, you made these experiments to see whether a thing which you had never seen could be reproduced.

That's literally what he's like, so you didn't see that.

Okay, let me just get this straight. So he was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, science.

Yeah, that's what I did. So he was like, okay.

Can we see notes on your experiment? Can we see the whole thing?

Because when you do an experiment, you need to have a whole Yeah, like hit me up with your hypothesis here.

And he was like, oh, no, like you, you can't see them.

And he was like, why though? And he was like, I didn't take them.

And he's like, right. So you didn't do an experiment.

So you literally didn't write any... Like, can I see a... a word you wrote down about this?

Can I see a Google Doc? And he was like, no.

I literally did not record anything about this thing.

I'm just telling you about it. so of course this is with no evidence no record no notes what the hell People who heard it, though, after this day, because it got around to the press.

It stays with you. They were all like, what the fuck?

Doctors... were quoted as saying, quote, he was the analyst who was able to make a drop of fresh blood rise like a souffle.

Oh my god, I'm dead. And somebody who was part of the university medical staff. the University of Liverpool medical staff, said, quote, the only explanation as far as I can see as to how Mr. Roberts achieved confidence cone-shaped clots from drops of freshly shed blood is that before commencing his experiment,

He coated the rim of the pan with Vaseline.

Stop. Like they were like, that's because it is.

Anybody who knows anything about blood...

That's just not true. You don't drop it.

Where you drop it, what height you drop fresh blood that has just come out of somebody's body.

That doesn't matter what height you drop it from.

It's not going to clot because you dropped it from a height.

Yeah. It's time. That's what clotting... And it's like they're trying to prove...

They're trying to take away that clotting thing where MacPhail had to admit that it was an hour for it to clot like that and to stay together like that up there.

Right. They're trying to take that away and say, well, he just did this state of the art experiment, this guy.

With no notes. And he dropped it from 15 inches and boop.

It clotted. Never seen that before. Sounds like magic.

So people are like, no, he probably coated the fucking thing with gasoline.

With gasoline. With gasoline, you might as well have.

And they were like, that doesn't make any sense.

So it was just bullshit. But again, it was said out loud.

And when it's said out loud, you can't take it back.

Not everybody knows about blood and shit.

Yeah, you can strike that shit from the record.

But you heard it. What are you going to do?

So that was the prosecution's turn. Okay.

Now Oliver gets to make his statement for the defense, because now he's going to be able to bring up his witnesses.

What his opening statement basically said was there's no motive here.

They were saying this frenzy thing is insane because...

One, he's been mentally evaluated this entire time, and his entire 53 years, he's never been frenzied or insane.

But also... It totally conflicts with all of these police officers who have stated several times and were very disturbed, and so was McPhail. at how calm and collected and women he was.

Yeah, yeah. Is it he's frenzied or is it he's too calm?

Right. Which one is it? somewhere in the middle.

We can't have both. And he kept saying, he was like, you can't have both.

So they got to pick one. They got to either say he's a calm, evil satanic serial killer or he's a frenzied madman yeah like put that cake down you can't eat it So and then they're also saying, you know, there's nothing that connects him to the phone call, the Qualtrough phone call.

In fact, people are saying it couldn't have been him.

Right. The timeline, he just didn't have a time to do this.

He didn't have time to kill or clean himself, go to Menlove Gardens East or try to find it, and then come home in the time frame. discussed.

It just doesn't make any sense. There's also no murder weapon, and they've searched everywhere and they didn't find one.

I know, that's a huge part of this investigation.

And if it was Wallace, he only had a certain perimeter or a certain amount of locations he could have stashed that in.

Because he didn't travel. He didn't have enough time to do anything else.

They know all his locations. The people who saw him when they saw him would have seen him holding something.

Exactly. Now, he said at the end of his statement, quote, this is the man who you are asked to convict of murder. and this is the man to whom I am now going to ask you to listen.

Remember, that in so far as statements were made of by him on that tuesday night If he is an innocent man, consider what condition of mind he must have been in. whether quiet, as the police say, stunned by shock or whether sobbing when alone, as Mrs. Johnston says.

If he has made a slip or two, remember the circumstances.

Like his wife was just brutally murdered.

And I like that he like put that in there.

Like you cannot base this all on what people are saying he actually said. acted like because if he's innocent he walked in and found his partner of 18 years brutally massacred in their living room so like give him a break.

Now, Wallace had actually slid a note at the beginning of this whole thing to his lawyers that said, quote, I wish to go into the witness box and give evidence.

Yeah. Which is like, hell yeah, Wallace.

Now, he took the stand. And he actually gave more information than he needed to.

He was trying to be very- In a good way.

In a good way or in a bad way? In a good way.

Okay. So Oliver said, quote, I suppose I must put this question to you.

I think it follows from what you have said.

Did you lay a finger on her? Did you lay a hand upon your wife at all that night?

And he said, I guess he just sat there and was like, I think in going out the back door, I did what I often enough did.

I just patted her on the shoulder and said, I won't be longer than I can help.

So he took it as like, I did lay a hand on her.

I put my hand on her shoulder. And Oliver goes, I did not mean that.

And then he said- Did you strike her? Did you do anything to injure her?

And he said, oh no, certainly not. Oh. Wallace is the purest.

So then Hemmard comes on to question him.

And he tried to trick him. And he tried to do this by... Usually you will ask things in chronological order so you can get the real...

I think it's kind of dirty pool to like try to trick people up on like days by asking things out of order.

Because that's not getting real information.

That's just getting someone confused. Like you're just confusing them.

You're not getting actual. Yeah. But he decided that was the way to go, so he started asking him things out of sequence.

So he was like, on Tuesday, did you do this?

On Wednesday, did you... talk to this man well what about that earlier that Sunday that was before all that and he was like I don't fucking know So he did trip up a couple of times.

Yeah. Like just being like, wait, Tuesday.

I talked to this person, like no it was Wednesday, like I can't remember, like he was just trying to remember things.

Right. But he ended up being on it. Like, he got his shit together and he ended up...

It's hard. I made a doctor's appointment this morning and she was like, we have like tomorrow at blah, blah, blah.

And I was like. In my head, I'm like, fuck, what day is tomorrow?

Like, I have no idea what tomorrow is. I could never, I would be like, what?

If someone said like, what did you do last Sunday?

I'd be like, uh, what day is today? Like I, I don't know.

The tricks he was trying to do just weren't going to work on him.

He asked him about the Qualtrough Call, and he established over and over that no one would have been able to say for sure that Wallace was going to be at the chess club that night.

He was like, No one would have been able to say like, yes, I'm going to be there because I was kind of flaky there.

I, you know, it just. I didn't tell anyone besides my wife.

And Wallace, excuse me. He kept hammering that, though, hammered.

He kept hammering this whole thing. So he says, So he says to him, and of course, Mr. Qualtrough had no possible means of knowing whether you would receive that call that night. that he made to the chess club because no one knew you were going to be at the club.

And so he says, that is so. And he says, then he rang you up at 715 or 720.

And without knowing you would ever get the message, and without knowing you would ever go to Menlove Gardens East, Apparently he was ready waiting for your departure that night.

And he goes, it would look like it. Like, he's not even trying.

He's like, yeah, you're right. That's weird.

Right. So then he suggested that that was risky on Qualtrough's part.

He was like, isn't that kind of risky that like he doesn't know if you're going to get that phone call because you're telling me like he doesn't know.

And he's like. Yeah, you're right. That is weird.

Like he's thinking he's going to get him to be like, well, you know, Yeah, no, blah.

And he's like, no, yeah, that is risky. Yeah, like, I wouldn't do that.

And he couldn't. rattle him like he was just like yeah That's very risky.

Weird. Why would he do that? Qualtrough's a weird guy, I guess.

I don't know. It worked. Still haven't met him.

He's like, it worked, I guess. So, like, good on him, I suppose.

So he then suggested to him that the wrong address debacle, him giving him that address that doesn't exist... was just, he was like, well, wouldn't that be kind of like good for you because it establishes your alibi?

If you were sent to Menlove Gardens West, you would just go to that address that exists, talk to that one person, and be on your way.

But because he gave you an address that doesn't exist, you talk to seven people. who can now say they talk to you.

Which is a fair question. Which is a very...

Fair question. And Wallace goes, yeah, you're right.

That'd be a great alibi. He was just like, I don't know what to tell you.

He's like, yeah, dude, I'm saying. Because he's like, dude, I...

I don't have answers. If I had answers for you, I'm agreeing with you.

This is weird. This whole thing is weird.

Then they hammered him about why he went back home, because he had mentioned After I couldn't find this address, I heard it was fake.

He said, he quoted as saying, I became suspicious and came back home.

So they were like, well, you became suspicious because you knew what you did.

And he was like, no. And at one point they said to him, quote, when you returned home because you knew. it and he goes knew what and they go what exactly had happened in the house and he goes how could i know He's like, nice try.

So he's not even giving them this. Like, no, there's no way.

He's like, well, how could I know that my wife had been murdered?

Like he's not even giving them like... He's like, you just don't make sense.

He's trying to make him seem like, well, no, I...

You know, I wouldn't know that. He's literally like, well, what?

Like, how would I know? Right. I don't get it.

It's just I love that he's just like totally chilling. agreeing right yeah so hammered just couldn't get anything he's being so cooperative He's just agreeing, which is not helping him, but it's not hurting him as well.

So it's just, I think that made the prosecutions thing kind of moot. which is like fun because he put all this effort into it and he didn't really get anything out of it.

So then did the defense comes up and they said, when you were playing the violin with your wife.

Were you accustomed to do it when you were naked in a Macintosh?

Was that your habit? And they just came out and said that?

No. Well, and he says, what was that? He was like, excuse me?

And they said, to play naked in a Macintosh.

And he said, I have never played naked in my life.

He's like, yeah. He's like, that is not my forte.

And whoops. Again, I pulled the charger out of the wall.

Is that what it was? I haven't done that in a while, so here we are.

So I love that the defense used that as kind of a shocking thing.

Like, were you accustomed to play naked when you played with your wife?

And he was like, what, what? Because they wanted to get that real reaction from him, not him being like, no.

He was like, what the fuck? Because they were like, so you didn't play naked?

And he's like, no, never in my life. Never.

Then they brought all three of those kids, Metcalf, Elsie Wright, and Kenneth Caird up.

And they all sat on the stand because they were able to bring them up.

The prosecution didn't bring them up, but they were.

Good. They all said that Alan had told them he had seen Julia at a quarter to seven.

None of them would agree to this news story of his.

And we're basically like, he's lying. Yeah.

He's a liar. Like, fuck that guy. We know it.

Now, the closing statements, the judge spoke for an hour.

The judge. And this is part of what he said.

The real test of the value of circumstantial evidence is, does it exclude every reasonable possibility?

I can even put it higher. Does it exclude other theories or possibilities?

If you cannot put the evidence against the accused man beyond a probability and nothing more, if that is a probability which is not inconsistent with there being other reasonable possibilities, then it is impossible for a jury to say.

We are sad. You cannot. It is. It is impossible for a jury to say we are satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the charge is made out against the accused man.

A man cannot be convicted of any crime, least of all murder, merely on probabilities. unless they are so strong as to amount to a reasonable certainty.

If you have other possibilities, a jury would not and I believe ought not to come to the conclusion that the charge is established.

However you regard the matter, the whole crime was so skillfully devised and so skillfully executed and there is such an absence of any trace to incriminate anyone as to make it very difficult to say, although it is a matter entirely for you, that it can be brought home to anybody in particular.

So he's literally telling them they haven't proven their case.

No, not at all. So I just want you guys to go back there with that.

And I don't think that you should, because he said you ought not.

And so he said, if there is an unknown murderer, he has covered up his traces. can you say it is absolutely impossible that there was no such person?

But putting that aside as to not being the real question, Can you say taking all the evidence as a whole, bearing in mind the strength of the case put forward by the police and the prosecution, that you are satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that it was the hand of the prisoner and no other hand that murdered this woman. if you are not so satisfied it is not proved.

Whatever your feelings may be, Whatever your surmises or suspicions or prejudices may be, it is not established as a matter of evidence and legal proof. then it is your duty to find the prisoner not guilty.

Of course, if you are satisfied equally, it is your duty to find him guilty. but it is your duty to decide on the evidence which has been given before you during these three days.

And whatever your verdict is, that is the acid test which you must apply.

Will you consider your verdict and say whether you find the prisoner guilty or not guilty?

Well, that was just only part of it. But it was it was him saying.

They haven't proven their case. If you can comfortably say that they have, then by all means say guilty, but don't you dare go into there. with your own prejudices and with reading the papers and with hearing what everybody said and say guilty.

Yeah. So they come back after an hour. Gentlemen of the jury, are you agreed upon your verdict?

We are. Do you find the prisoner guilty or not guilty of murder?

Guilty. How? They found him guilty. How?

This jury was a fucking mess. That's how.

Some of them fell asleep during the trial.

Are you kidding me? Fell asleep. Most of them were giggling at times.

They shouted things. Some of the women cried at times.

There was... one of them like holding the because they brought like a replica of that like iron bar that they were talking about could possibly have been the murder weapon right and they had them hold it to see how heavy it was they were like mock hitting each other with it in particular pretending oh my god so something that I like I understand obviously like it's just the way things go that juries find people guilty but it's like if the judge doesn't think that the person is guilty like yeah like take it into consideration yeah you know it's weird Well, and there were stories that came out later of jurors that came forward and were like,

Oh, I didn't think he was guilty, but we were threatened and intimidated by other jurors who were working with the police.

Absolutely. And so this is like a crooked police force.

It was a mess. Now, as soon as it was read, he started to cry.

Obviously, because he's going to prison.

He was brought to Liverpool prison. He was stripped.

He was put in prison. prison graze because he was now set to be executed 17 days later on May 12th.

Are you kidding? So his lawyers are officially like, appeal.

Appeal, appeal, appeal. Yeah, we can't kill this innocent man.

So they were like, yep. So May 18th, they decided they moved his execution date and they decided to do the appeal.

Oh. Now, three judges were going to determine after statements whether this appeal was valid.

During and before this, churches were actually setting up things to pray for him because that's how much people thought he wasn't guilty.

Right. It was very divided, which is funny because he was agnostic and he was openly agnostic and like wrote in his diary, but churches were praying for him.

I wonder if changed his mind i just thought that was like that's like a fun thing it's nice yeah uh because it's just like what's right You know, it doesn't matter about your beliefs.

It's just what's right and wrong. Now, lack of evidence was cited, obviously.

Absolutely. Not enough to prove that he was guilty.

They also said that the jury was clearly hostile and biased against him.

Like, that was clear. 45 minutes later, the conclusion to which we have arrived is that the case against the appellant, of which we have carefully and anxiously considered and discussed, was not proved with that certainty, which is necessary in order to justify a verdict of guilty.

TO WHICH I HAVE REFERRED. The result is that the appeal will be allowed and this conviction quashed.

He was acquitted. He was acquitted. Like they didn't have to do an entirely trial.

That day. He walked out a free man. Oh my God.

Thank goodness. They walked out a free man.

And there was a party at his insurance company in his honor.

People tried to set up funds to compensate him for his emotional damages.

Most people agreed. And the press pretty much agreed that this was the right thing to do.

Did he have to move out of town? because there were so many people that didn't agree.

Unfortunately, he found that a lot of his neighbors and people he thought were friends had turned on him.

And people started saying he was just lucky.

He really did it. They were calling him a vampire, a sex addict.

Oh my God. a maniac all those started coming right back up again he's done nothing uh And at first he was like, fuck the haters.

Like he didn't care. And he said, I'm going to live in my house because it's my home.

Like I'm living there. In fact, he wrote to his lawyer, it is my home.

What would the tattletales say if I were to accept a position elsewhere or even change my address to another district of Liverpool, they would say that I'm running away.

They would say that it was an indication of guilt.

Does it mean nothing that I was freed by the court of appeal?

Right. And things were bad when he returned.

And people in Liverpool treated him like a murderer.

Like they would like literally like run into their house when he walked down the street and shit.

I feel so bad for him. He lost his wife and then lost everything. trying to stick it out and lost his reputation well and he wrote again to Monroe he wrote after a while, he said, quote, they are the rottenest crowd I ever struck, mean and paltry brained.

I feel it is a wicked insult to Julia, how she would have scorned this whole thing.

People also show up at his home... While he's living there and they're shouting Julia through the door.

Oh gosh. And like whispering Julia through the door and shit.

That's funny. People were also trying to take souvenirs from his murder house while he lived there.

Meanwhile, like... And, like, kids are coming and they're, like, making it like a game to go, like, touch.

Like, kind of when Lizzie Borden moved into...

I was just going to say that. Maplecroft.

It became like a thing. But so eventually...

He just couldn't do it anymore. He was like, this is not worth it.

So he did move to a smaller... like bungalow.

Cause that is like a prison in and of itself.

Yeah. So he moved to Northwest England. Um, he hired a housekeeper who also was someone who was going to like kind of care after him cause he was, his health was failing.

Um, Rumors immediately went out that she was the woman that he had killed Julia for, even though, like, no.

And then there was rumors that he was keeping a new wife locked in a cage in his new bungalow.

He built a high fence around his garden to keep people out, and people said that he was burying bodies there. and just being naked and satanic in his gardens, of course.

As one does. August 25th, 1931, he wrote in his diary, to go about feeling that one is shunned by nearly everyone is a terrible ordeal. and though I try to fight it down and ignore it, the whole business depresses me beyond words.

Perhaps after a while I may get immersed in some new hobbies to take my mind off of the terrible tragedy.

What I fear is the long nights. On September 8, 1931, he wrote, "...the last few days I've been depressed thinking of my dear Julia."

I'm afraid this will be a very lonely winter for me I seem to miss her more and more and cannot drive the thought of her cruel end out of my mind So this poor guy's dealing with this fact.

On March 20th, 1932, he wrote, today I have been very, very much depressed, full of grief and tears.

Julia, Julia, my dear, why were you taken from me?

Why, why should this have been so? It is a question to which I can get no answer, and I must fight this dread feeling of utter loneliness as best as I can.

This is so sad. This is not a man to me who murdered his wife.

No way. Now, his kidney issues were very much recurring.

They were getting worse and worse. And I'm sure the stress.

I was going to say, stress will do such a number.

It can kill you. It can kill you. And that's what people don't get is like when people were going after him and shit like this, like he was acquitted.

Yeah. And this wasn't one of those acquittals that you're like a Casey Anthony.

You know what I mean? Where you're like, that motherfucker did it.

It's like, this is one of those things, like...

There was no evidence. There was literally not a shred of evidence to say he did this.

But whatever. But people just like drove him out and kept till the very end, like didn't care.

It's insane. And I feel like 2021, it's the same kind of thing.

But now we have the internet where people will do that shit to you.

And it's just insane. Like people don't think of other people's mental health.

They don't give a shit. They don't care.

They're mad about something. They're going to destroy you.

It just sucks. I feel bad for Wallace. I think one of the most important things that like you ever hear is like you never know what anybody else is going through.

Exactly. And I feel like people have lost that.

People have absolutely lost that. lost that because honestly I don't think people care no and it's sad it is it's a bummer it's got a turn the other way eventually so um february 9th 1932 he was brought to the hospital for emergency surgery He stayed there bedridden until he died February 25th, 1933.

Oh. His last words were to his nephew Edwin and he said, do good with your life.

Those were his last words. Of course they were, because William Wallace is the purest soul.

And he was buried with Julia. Good. In Anfield.

Somebody told me how to say this. Anfield?

I think it's Anfield Cemetery. I think you're right.

Somebody from England told me how to say it and I totally forgot so I'm sorry. in the same cemetery with Julia.

Good. What would be insane is if he did kill her, that's real fucked that he was buried with her, but...

He didn't. I've never been more sure of something.

No, he did not. Now, just to quickly end here, because remember Richard Gordon Perry, like that whole thing.

Yeah, where did he go? I think he's a good suspect for this.

Several people said, that they believed that he would murder someone and they wouldn't be shocked so people who knew him were like oh that wouldn't shock me if he murdered someone wow And two years after the murders, his ex-girlfriend, Lily Lloyd, reached out to Hector Monroe, the defense attorney,

And she said, I just can't bear it anymore.

My conscience is killing me. She said, I lied in 1931 about being with Richard then.

And then she said, I will sign an affidavit to that effect.

All right, here, I'm going to spill the tea for you. never lie for a man don't never lie for a man Don't ever lie for a man.

We don't tell lies for men. Yes. Don't. do it no and like good for lily lloyd for coming i mean don't lie in general yeah but like definitely don't do this shit Don't do shit for her, man.

I'm glad she came forward, but, like, damn.

No. So here's the thing. He... So Richard Gordon Perry... was at that cafe that this chess thing was happening at a lot because he was part of like a drama troupe. that would meet at that cafe.

He would have, and he knew Wallace obviously from work, that whole falling out.

He would have seen Wallace on the schedule for that night's matches if he had looked.

So that whole thing they were sitting at of nobody knew you were there.

So how would this Qualtrough call and think that you were there he did that doesn't make sense Richard Gordon Perry could have seen him on the schedule He was there.

I mean, why do you have a bloody baseball in your car?

And that's the only person besides the chess players that were there that night that couldn't have called because that were there that would know he was there.

This guy is the only other one. You don't go to a car wash at midnight and like demand that your car be cleaned.

Exactly. So people think he staked out the house, watched Wallace leave. made the call, then killed Julia because he knew Wallace was now sent far away.

He knew that he sent him to get him out of the house for as long as he could.

That's so nuts. So then people started saying, were Perry and Julia having an affair? because they were close, I guess, and, like, she did, like, there was that whole thing that they were like, Or was there some weird thing?

Or like maybe he had something with, it was just a weird thing.

I think it was just a rumor. Yeah. But then this also could have just been revenge on Wallace for getting him fired i think that's reason because this guy had a super temper he was violent he was prone to this shit there's motives There's motives here.

Absolutely. Now, in 1932, interestingly enough, Perry was caught sitting in someone else's car stealing it.

So he was brought to jail. Then in 1934, he went to jail and was sentenced to three months for carjacking someone.

In 1936, he picked up a woman, Lily Fitzsimmons, brought her into a secluded location, sexually assaulted her, and then the charges were dropped. oh, yeah, he's dangerous.

He was an alcoholic his whole life. A violent alcoholic.

And people basically just called him a dick.

And his family said he refused to discuss the murder of Julia Wallace.

He would not talk about it. I mean... Hello.

Like, let's wake up. Hello. Let's retroactively.

I think it's weird. I think it's worth looking into.

Now, this is the oldest open cold case at the Merseyside's police department.

Okay. Oh, it's open still. It's still open.

That's wild. They have not been able because he was acquitted.

They have no one. on this dang and that's the very abridged version of the murder of Julia Wallace.

Wow. And I... tell you, tell you, tell you, read that book, read that book, read that book.

It has so much cool shit in it. What a bonkers case.

I don't think it's the impossible murder, though.

I think that he did it. It's bonkers. What's his name again?

Richard Gordon Perry. Yeah, Perry did it.

I think he had something to do with it. I know for a fact William Herbert Wallace did not do this.

I agree. Wow. Well, let us know what you guys think, and we hope you keep it... Woo!

But not so weird that you are the worst and you don't listen. yeah don't just do good police work yeah like come on it's your job 1930s retroactive Thank you.

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[줄리아 월리스 살인 사건: 윌리엄 허버트 월리스의 비극과 결백]-[Episode 224: The Mysterious Murder of Julia Wallace Part 3]

📋 Summary

줄리아 월리스 살인 사건: 사법 정의의 실패와 한 남자의 파멸

부실한 수사와 기소의 오류

증거 조작과 편견의 재판

반전과 무죄 판결

진범에 대한 의혹: 리처드 고든 페리

결론

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript