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Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is Morbid.
It's so morbid. It's really morbid. It's a new year of morbid.
Yeah, and I'm really starting it off with a bang, guys.
You know what, though? I would expect nothing less from you. than to really fuck us up for the new year.
Yeah, I like to come in like a lion, not so much like a lamb.
You don't say. I would say that you're the lion of the show.
I wouldn't necessarily call myself a lamb though.
No. You have more lamb-like qualities. 100%.
You have a lamb-like way about you. Thank you.
But I don't think you are like pure lamb.
No, it's the Gemini in me. I'm a lamb and I'm also like.
A goat. Because 666. I don't know what I'm saying.
You take over. I'm also a goat. So hopefully everybody had a good new year and everybody was safe. and hopefully all of your lives just changed immediately upon midnight striking.
I lost 100 pounds. Everybody's just, they're all changed.
And I'm being so much more aware, self-aware.
There you go. It's all happening, guys.
None of that happened. No. But hopefully, you know what?
We all have. hopes for 2021 but let's be quiet about them because you know could be worse yeah But everybody just be optimistic.
Yeah. Keep doing what you're doing. Everybody keep wearing those masks.
Yes. You know, vaccines are coming. Elena got her vaccine today.
I did. I got my first dose. My second dose will be at the end of the month.
And you're feeling good. I'm feeling good.
I'm feeling like a little cranky, but I'm feeling good.
It's not a vaccine. Perfection. No, I'm kidding.
My arm's a little sore. That's it. So far, that's all I got.
So go get them because... But you can. It's going to be great.
I will take nothing except the Dolly Parton one.
Thank you and good night. There you go. Is she the Pfizer or the Moderna?
I think she's the Moderna. Oh, hey. Yeah, you got the Dolly Parton one.
Because I remember being like, I told Annie and she was like, is she getting the Dolly Parton one?
And I was like, yes, indeed. I love that Annie was like, is she getting Pfizer or Moderna?
Is she getting the Dolly Parton one? Because Annie's cousin is like a first responder.
So he got vaccinated and he was upset that he didn't get the Dolly Parton one.
That's amazing. I love that. So much. Not actually upset, I should clarify.
No, like not. Just jokes, you know? Jokes.
K-I-D-D-I-N-G. Just saying. i think really oh and i wanted to thank everybody for all the amazing birthday wishes because everyone was so sweet i know how does it feel to be like elderly Feels good.
Feels good. Feels really good. You're not elderly.
I'm on my way. I know you're, you're right behind.
So. I know, I'm about to be a quarter of a century old, so that's awesome.
Oh my god. Yeah. So old. Not about to be.
It's like six months away. Well, five. There you go.
The birthday countdown to Ash's birthday has already begun like the day after mine.
She was like, and the countdown begins. It's my birthday.
No, the countdown begins the day after my birthday.
We all know somebody like that and all of you know someone like that because hi, hello.
Hi, hello. So I think, so yeah, I just want, before I go into it, I just wanted to say thank you guys because you were so sweet and it was so nice and it made my day awesome.
And John got me a signed David Bowie picture and I look at it all the time.
Yeah, he did. Because when you think about it, it didn't like hit me, hit me that there's only a finite amount of those.
Yeah. He's not signing anymore. I mean, so it like really struck me that I was like, whoa, I have one.
Yeah, that's when he told it. Also, it is so hard to keep secrets because John will sometimes tell me what he gets you.
When I was little, he would not tell me at all.
But now I get to know. And it's hard. Sometimes I'm like, maybe I shouldn't ask him because I just want to tell you so bad.
I know, that one must have been really hard.
Yeah, it was difficult. And you know, the girls asked me the other day, this is just a little quick side note before we get into this.
If David Bowie, for some reason they were like, is David Bowie still alive?
Oh, because you got them that little book for Christmas, like a kid's David Bowie book.
And I was like... Yep. Because I was like, I can't.
I can't do that. I can't do that yet. No.
I can't do it to them. I can't do it to me.
We can't all live through it again. So I was like, yes.
He's still alive. Also, I think they're really, really smart because in the, you know how there's like, In that book, there's the whole kid cartoon part, and then at the end, there's an actual timeline.
Yeah, it's one of those like little people big dreams or something like that.
It's a kid's book about David Bowie's life.
But in the back, like the last part, I read that to them and it's in past tense.
Yes. And I think that they're so smart that they realize like that was in past tense.
Yeah, because one, like the, you know, you know who, was like...
Is he? Yeah. She was like, eh. She catches on to everything.
And when I told her, she was like, all right.
I'll say like certain things and she'll be like, Titi, what did you mean by that?
And I'm like, oh, fuck. And you're like, why do you know that?
And I'm like, also don't say fuck. Kids, man.
And you know what? This segues really well into my case.
Yikes. Because... Kids, man. Bikes. So I'm going to be covering some, and it's funny that this is going to be like the first of the year. case for me because I'm always the one that's like, I don't do kid cases.
I don't want to do kid cases unless it's like really necessary.
Well, this is one of those necessary ones that I feel like we have to cover.
It is the Oklahoma Girl Scout Murders from 1977.
It is a case that I read extensively about before I had kids.
I was like, fascinated by it I read everything I could and then when I had kids I was like I'm gonna come back to that someday but we're not gonna really like go deep into it so I know it really well and then I think one of our listeners actually I happen to be going into the email And I saw it.
They had suggested it. And I was like, you know what?
I'm ready. I'm ready to do it. I remember you like talking to me about this, like when I first when you started getting me into true crime.
I was like, this is a doozy. Listen to this one.
Wowee. So this one's going to be tough. This one obviously has to do with children, little girls.
It's horrific. It's really bad. uh just warning yeah there's you know a lot in this one so a lot to unpack It's gonna be a multi-parter because there is just so much.
This is still an unsolved case. I know, that's what really pisses me off about this.
It is infuriating. It's... Because they had a guy who everyone thinks did it, but...
I don't know. And we'll find out, you know, when we get there.
No one was ever put in jail for these crimes.
Right. So... We don't know. And the one person that they were really looking at ended up dying.
I was going to say they're probably dead.
Very shortly afterwards. And when we go through the evidence at first, like upon first glance, you're going to be like, oh, he did it.
Right. And then when you start digging a little further into it, you're like, Oh, maybe not.
There's too much. And obviously a jury saw the, A doubt.
A lot of doubts. Oh, so this went to trial.
Oh, yeah, it did. Wait until we get to it.
It's insane. Okay. So this is going back to the night of June 12th, 1977.
This is going to take place at Camp Scott, which is near Locust Grove, Oklahoma.
I know I said that right. Locust Grove, because locusts are a bug.
And a plant. And a plant. There you go. Are they really?
Crocus, I think you're thinking? No, like a flower, a locust flower.
Oh, a lotus flower. Bye. I was like a locust plant.
Yeah, you know, whatever. It's one of like the plagues of Egypt.
Yeah. So there you go. Yeah. You knew that.
Yeah. For sure. A locust plant. I love it.
All right, so wait a second. We're starting off the year right.
That's just the way you started off. It is.
I also think, I don't know, sometimes my brain just like, it's not on full operation mode.
I think we can all relate to that. Yeah.
I'm pretty sure. So this is a camp that is spread across 410 acres.
Jesus. It's huge. It was originally opened in 1928. and it was named in honor of H.J.
Scotty Florence or excuse me, H.J. Scottie and Florence Scott.
So H.J. was called Scottie. because their last name was Scott.
Obviously, Camp Scott. Not Michael Scott.
Where are my office heads at? Funny. So these two, HJ and Florence, were boy-slash-girl scout volunteers.
I mean, they were just... They donated a ton to them.
They were just, you know, really into it.
Really philanthropic when it came to the scouts. which is always just you know it's always something when adults are like really into the boy girl scouts it's just like it's an interesting pathology to me when somebody is really into that listen I'm sorry but there's a cutoff date I don't give a fuck well and it's like if If you grew up in it and you loved it, that's great for you.
I never did Girl Scouts and I never had any interest in doing Girl Scouts.
But, and John actually did Boy Scouts and like, but once it became like, I think he did like Cub Scouts.
Wait, and can we shout out his mom? Because she was his troop leader.
Oh, yeah, his mom. Badass bitch alert. She's amazing.
She was like a troop leader of all these little boys. like did things in her home with the, like for like that whole thing where they would have to meet like once a month and do some crazy craft. or something scouts honor like make a race car yeah and put out a forest fire but he said he stopped it When it came to the point where you, like, became, like, an actual, like...
Boy Scout, like when you weren't doing just like the silly things like Cub Scout, like cute things.
And apparently it was because he was like, at that point when you're like a little kid, There's always an adult there.
Your parents are around. It's like very like whatever.
And then he said, when you get into this like going from elementary school into like middle school age, Do they send you out by yourself?
Suddenly he said, there's no adults, and it's just the older Boy Scouts that, like, haze you.
It's like a fraternity. Literally. And he was like, and I went to one thing and I came home and was like, I'm not doing this anymore.
And his mom was like, you don't have to.
But, and I'm sure that's not the case in every single thing, but he said his particular one, he was like, fuck that.
So he was like, no, thank you, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts.
I'm just there for the cookies. But they also do amazing things.
It's good for little girls and boys who are into it.
So I'm not going to like shit all over them.
But it's just, it's a strange organization to me personally.
I don't understand it, but it's because I'm not an outdoorsy person.
I am literally wearing a sweatshirt right at this very moment that says indoorsy.
It's true. So we're really like, we're really here.
Funny day to pick that. My shirt says, what would Buffy do?
It certainly does. So obviously that should tell you how outdoorsy I am.
She would not go camping. I was sitting on my house watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
I wasn't camping. It was named in honor of these two.
They donated 24 of these acres to the camp initially.
The camp was extended each year. It's in Tulsa, by the way, and it's extended each year like acreage. with money received from like Girl Scout cookie sales, donations, anything they could.
Right. 1956, they planted a ton of pine trees all across the camp, like really made it this like amazing place. yeah that's awesome and it's a summer camp it's for girls to be you know independent do the summer camp stuff you know all that's I
Again, I am such like a theater kid. I did not... do even a hint of summer camp in my life.
I don't know what summer camp entails. I know there's campfires, maybe a canoe.
I went to um like my school put this thing on it was called nature and me and you went for like three nights, four days.
And I came, my mom like, it was very expensive.
My mom had to like scrape together the money to send me.
I will give her that. But it was the worst experience of my entire fucking life.
Like, thanks, mom. I'll credit you with that.
But like. no thanks. I put no thank you.
Because it was horrific. Well and it's and we're going to get to like this part of it soon too.
It's I was never like, I want to go stay away from my parents kind of thing, which we'll get into more.
You're like. I'm like, well, that was the selling point, but I never did any of these, but I obviously have seen enough summer camp things and no people went to summer camp.
You were busy watching Friday the 13th and you were like, good luck out there, folks.
I literally was watching Friday the 13th being like, went to summer camp.
That's fine. Virtual summer camp. Camp Crystal Lake was great, guys.
Thank you. But, you know, they did all the classic summer camp stuff.
And then, you know, the Girl Scouts, especially at this age, they teach them to be independent and, like, Which is great.
Yeah, start a fire and shit. And these summer camps would happen in like two week intervals. increments so these girls would come in for the first two weeks they would leave another crop would come in for two weeks so you were there for two weeks And they were young.
I was like baffled. Oh, because at first I was like, that's not really that long.
But for little kids. Little kids. That's a long time.
As we'll find out, a couple of these kids were like 9, 10 years old.
Oh, yeah. That's really young, I feel like.
I suck at that, so I don't know. So 140 girls arrived for this camp session.
Damn. Again, there were 12 campsites on this site and they were named for Native American tribes because in the area it was a big...
Cherokee area and there was like a lot of reservation land around so This was named after these Native American tribes.
Each of these little like units had their own Like each of these units had like seven or eight tents. to each of them.
Oh, okay. Sure, sure, sure. So, and they were also separated into like age group.
So there wasn't cabins. They were straight up camping.
Oh, yeah. And... Don't you worry, I'm gonna tell you how janky this entire operation was.
Because we start out and we're like, yeah, summer camp, it's going to be great independence.
And then you're like, what the fuck were you all thinking?
Oh, no. Like in the poor parents didn't even know how janky this shit was.
Oh no. Yeah. I get angry at this camp. But, like, you should see the camp first.
But, I mean, I think... Yeah, it's just weird.
So, yeah. So, the youngest kids... were put in the Kiowa unit.
And this was a unit with technically eight tents, But most people, when you'll research this, you'll see it's either, you know, there's either 7 tenths or 8 tenths. what it actually is is seven camper tents and then one counselor tent.
So they don't count the counselor tent as one of their tents.
That makes sense. So technically the tenth that we will be talking about a lot is tenth seven.
Okay. But some people refer to it as ten eight.
It's hard when you're researching it. No.
That makes sense. I see what you're saying.
But just know that we are not counting the counselor's 10.
Which is a whole other thing, that the counselors have their own tent, and there's not counselors staying with these young girls.
Yeah, there should be at least one. counselor in each tent exactly like for the children because that's what they do with like cabins there's always a counselor staying in the 100 like that's like a liability it's and trust me it is so yeah so the Three girls we will be discussing, which I will name in a second, were in the Kiowa unit, and that's where the youngest girls were.
Now these cabins slash tents that we're talking about, when I say cabin, it's because they were made to look kind of like cabins, but they were straight up tense on a platform.
Okay. Now, they were literally on a wooden platform that was 14 by 12 inches or yeah 14 by 12 feet sorry inches I was like So they were standing on their tiptoes, hugging each other the entire night.
No, it was 14 by 12 feet wooden platforms.
And then there was just a fabric tent on top of it.
So all the walls were fabric. There was just a flap that stopped anybody from coming in or anyone from going out.
We love that. When I saw these, I was like, what the fuck were you doing putting children in these?
It was the 70s, right? still yes i mean what the fuck were you doing like there anybody could come in and anyone could come out and also what about bears Exactly.
Hello? What about bears? You know what I mean?
Yeah. No, but I'm thinking like... Kids leave food out.
Kids leave food out and also, like, say a kid needs something in the middle of the night, they have to walk to the counselor tent.
Like, you could get eaten by a fucking bear.
Or a coyote. There was... All the lights were turned off at night in this camp.
There was no lights. fog literal pitch blackness and when you look on which we will post like um the pictures of the camp and the map of the camp so you can really get a visual of what I'm saying, because it's hard when you're not looking at it.
But we will post it on the Instagram so you can look.
But there's like tons of wood surrounding this place.
No, this sounds like my worst nightmare.
They had put up a fence, but the fence was not even the entire way around the place.
So there was just open forest at one point.
Anybody going through the forest could definitely come in.
Jesus. And then there was a gate, but there was a lot of people that said that gate was not keeping anyone out.
No. It was just like somebody could climb over that gate.
Like hop over it. Yeah. They say that time waits for no one, neither should payday.
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So again, not a good way of doing it. And then the thing that really just gets me is that they could... The counselor's tent... First, when you think of like...
Seven kids in tents and one counselor's tent.
My first thing was, okay, so you put the counselor's tent in the middle and then you put the tents all around the counselor's tent.
So they can see literally everybody at all times.
If you're not going to put a counselor in every tent, you better have them right there.
Right, no. That's not what they did. Was it at the end of a line?
Here's the counselor tent, and then they all just went in a line.
Yeah, that's stupid. So the counselors could see maybe two of these tents at any given time.
The rest of them, you're on your fucking own.
And you're in the pitch blackness next to woods where we can't see anyone who's coming.
If I was in like the last tent, I would be like, mom, can you pick me up?
I'm scared. Well, what's even sadder about what you just said is one of the girls did just that.
Oh, awesome. Yeah. So the little girls we're going to focus on are Doris Denise Milner, who went by Denise.
Michelle Guse and Lori Lee Farmer. Denise was 10 years old, Michelle was nine, and Lori was eight.
Jesus. Lori was the youngest at the camp and she was like very gifted. very like mature for her age like but she was the youngest one at the camp So they were tent mates together and what happened was I guess when they first arrive, you can pick your own tent mates, and there's four girls to attend.
Mm-hmm. These three girls happen to not know a lot of other people, so they were kind of left at the end.
This entire thing is stressing me out so much.
And so they met each other and were like, yeah, we can be tent mates because we don't, you know, this is fine.
We don't know. Yeah. They were supposed to have a fourth girl, but the fourth girl, due to some weird error, ended up in another tent for the night and they didn't want to mess with them because they were like we know she's in there so let's not mess it around right now So they were like, you know what?
We'll put you in their tent tomorrow night.
Mm-hmm. So an administrative error literally saved that little girl's life.
Wow. She must have, after this whole thing, been like, holy shit.
She had some kind of guardian angel or something.
There was something going on there. Some force of nature.
So these three are going to share a tent and they happen to be in the tent.
The furthest away from the counselor's den.
Why would you put the youngest camper? The eight-year-old.
An eight, nine, and ten-year-old. Come on.
Like, to me, I'm sorry. Negligent as fuck.
Yeah, no. And, like, if you're gonna put anybody in the N10, have it be, like, the 14.
15 year old girls exactly it's like what are you doing and why would you set it up this way that you can't see that fucking intent what is wrong with Right.
Like this is insane to me. No, I agree with you.
That's ridiculous. ridiculous and it's like i i try never to put like blame on any of these people but this sometimes there's blame what the actual sometimes we have blood on their hands and it's like they can you know we can sit here and say of course there was never like a murder i don't think at like a girl scout boy scout camp before this so i don't think that was like of course that wasn't first on their mind that someone's going to come in and murder kids But it should be on your fucking mind.
Yeah, you're in charge of kids. Anything can happen.
You're in the middle of the wilderness. You have no idea who's out there.
And it's like, I know that that's not first on your mind, but that should, unfortunately, we live in the world that that should be on your mind.
I know. I hate camping so much. You're really stressing me out.
And what sucks is I just told Annie's mom that like I would go to camp this year because I didn't go last year because of Cove Cove. and now I'm retracting my statement I'm sorry Donna I'm retracting it I'm sorry, Donna.
I'm sorry. I can't go. Yeah, it's not... After this...
I mean, I wasn't, I am never sending my kids anywhere away from me ever for as long as they exist.
Until they're 40. But after reading this, I was like, oh, honeys, never.
And if one of them, love them so much, but if one of them comes up to me someday and is like, I would like to go to summer camp, I'm going to be like, just sit down real quick.
And then I'm going to hit play on this episode.
And I'm going to be like, do you still want to go to summer camp?
Hi, girls. Do you still want to go? No? No.
Okay. Let's take you to theater camp. Okay.
Let's go do that. Let's just go hang out with TT.
Theater camp for a couple hours. Mama picks you up.
It's all great. All right, let's do that.
Day camp. Yeah. So the day that they showed up, what happened was they were all bussed in. and they met their tent mates, they picked their tent mates, and then they would go probably do some of those like camp things that elena doesn't know about swam because it's not like anything's documented here we don't know exactly what they were doing just camp shit yeah and then we do know that they had dinner at like the I'm going to go ahead and call it a dining hall.
A dining hall? Sure, a dining building. They had that at like 5.30, 6 o'clock.
They all started eating. Somewhere around this time, it ended up...
Pouring. I think it was actually on the way out of the dining hall.
The skies just opened up. Thunderstorm pouring.
So this was a dark and stormy night. Nightmare.
Literally a dark and stormy night. So they told them, you know, go back to your... you know, go dry up and there's not a whole lot to do.
Go dry up while it fucking pours in your cup. on your felt cabin.
In your fucking fabric. Yeah. sheet that layeth upon a wooden plank in the middle of the forest that we can't see so you're on your own eight-year-old like what What?
So they were like, yeah, go dry up. We can't really do a whole lot, so maybe...
You can get to know your tent mates. And then I think they were like, why don't you write letters home?
Like, everybody, write your first letter.
Say how your first day at camp was. Okay.
So, again, we're talking about let's – Let's talk about the three victims just so you can get an idea of who they are. so lori michelle and denise went back to their tent And I guess they sat down.
They started writing letters. Now, Lori, again, eight years old.
You're going to kill me. She's from Tulsa.
Her father is a doctor. His name is Dr. Charles Farmer, known as, like, Bo.
Dr. Charles. Um, and her mother is Sherry.
Uh, she was beautiful. Oh, I mean the photo of this little girl you're like get out of my face Oh, and the fucking pigtails.
She's a sweet baby face. I mean, she's just a beautiful, beautiful girl.
She was exceedingly brilliant. I mean, exceedingly.
And her father said she spontaneously recited the Pledge of Allegiance at 16 months old.
What the fuck? Yeah. Wow. Well, her dad's a doctor.
Yeah. So I think he just passed on. Uh, she could do a hundred piece jigsaw puzzles by two.
So she's literally a genius. Like a prodigy.
Yeah. Like literally. She skipped the second grade and was determined to have an IQ of 130.
And in second grade was thought to have a mental age of 10.
Wow. So she was like really on it. In second grade I had to get a bathroom chart because I used to go to the bathroom too much because I didn't want to be in class.
Wow. Yeah. So not exactly a genius. So you were killing it.
You weren't on Lori's level. No, I'm still not on Lori's level.
Honestly, who is? So her father is actually now the emergency room director at Tulsa's St.
John Medical Center. And he's been that since 1977, so the year that this happened was when he got that job.
So... He actually, this is really sad, her mother Sherry said that the thing that haunts her today is she said, that Lori wasn't sure if she was going to go to this camp or a YMCA camp. no and she couldn't couldn't decide so she turned to her mother and she was like what do I do so she said so I decided for her Oh, my God.
And then she also said, I also decided which week of camp to send her to and I'll have to live with that decision for the rest of my life.
And that's just like, you would never know.
Like Sherry. You had no way of knowing that.
You would never, ever know. Of course, that's going to weigh on you.
Right. But... no one would ever know that but picture because like obviously you know mom guilt I feel like I'm not obviously I'm not a mom but I know mom guilt yeah I can't imagine that level of mom guilt.
Oh, I can't fathom. That is astronomical.
That's... I can't even fathom it. I truly can't fathom it.
Yeah, it's awful. So the letter that Lori wrote, In her camp, we have all three of the letters, and it's really sad.
Yeah, thanks a lot. Her last letter said, dear mom, because she was one of five kids.
Oh, wow. Dear mom and dad and Misty and Joe and Chad and Kathy.
We're just getting ready to go to bed. It's 745.
We're at the beginning of a storm and having a lot of fun.
I've met two new friends, Michelle Gousset and Denise Milner.
I'm sharing a tent with them. It started raining on the way back from dinner.
We're sleeping on cots. I couldn't wait to write.
We're all writing letters now because there's hardly anything else to do.
With love, Lori. With love. She's eight and she's like, with love.
With love, mother and father. With love, mother and father.
And like that's one of the things her parents said was like that with love at the end was just like, yeah, just killed you.
Uh, so that is Lori. Lori, like, sweetheart of sweet.
I just want to, like, eat her up. My God, I can't.
And a baby. Eight. So we're also going to talk about nine-year-old Michelle Heather Gousset.
She was from Broken Arrow. She was very, very intelligent as well.
All three of these girls were very smart, like very intelligent girls.
Yeah. Uh, that might, maybe that's why they just like gravitated towards each other.
Yeah. Uh, She loved to read. She was very close with her family and her sibling, who was an older brother, Mike.
He was 13. She was shy. She wasn't very outgoing, but she was so sweet.
And she became very like, she was most herself when she was playing soccer or doing the Girl Scout.
She was really into it. Okay. Michelle had attended Camp Scott the year before.
Oh, wow. So she had already done this. She felt a little more comfortable.
So her letter is to her Aunt Karen. And it says, Dear Aunt Karen, how are you?
I am fine. I'm running from camp. We can't go outside because it is storming.
Me and my tent mates are the last tent in our unit.
My tent mates are Denise Milner and Lori Farmer.
My room is in shades of purple. Love, Michelle.
Like her bedroom. Her bedroom's purple. I love that.
She's like, by the way, my bedroom's purple.
It's pretty sweet. it's like it's it's just so like innocent it really is So she was also so she was known as being like very active and athletic.
Like I said, she loves soccer. Yeah. She also really loved raising plants, her favorite being her African violets. that she took very good care of.
Meanwhile, I didn't even know what a lotus was a minute ago. ago you said yeah you know i'm saying oh yeah the locust you know the locust plant uh she actually asked people before she left to take care of her african violets like that was her main concern yeah it kills me sweetie um and we're gonna go into these poor parents how they found out what happened to them because each of them have a story about that and I'll get into that in a minute.
But she wanted to be a math teacher like her mother.
Again, super excited about her purple bedroom.
And Michelle was going to be turning 10 on the 22nd.
And her mother had bought her a new bike that she had desperately wanted.
Oh, thank you for leaving me with that. And Lori, I forgot to mention, Lori was going to be turning nine on the 19th.
So their birthdays were super close. And Lori's family was planning to come and surprise her for her birthday.
Oh, my God. Now, the next one we're going to talk about is the one that truly breaks my heart.
This is 10-year-old Doris Denise Milner of Tulsa.
Her mother is Betty. Betty now says she's never visited Denise's grave because she literally can't.
Like she was like, I can't bring myself to go there.
I don't know how people do. I can't even fathom.
She said that her, so her father was Walter Milner and he was a police officer in Tulsa.
He was actually awarded a Medal of Valor for his role in stopping a robbery suspect in 1996.
Wow. He died of a heart attack at 53 in 1997.
He's buried next to his daughter. Oh. She was also a very smart little girl, like I said.
Her teachers and principals said she was one of the kindest and sweetest little girls you would ever meet.
She had saved her money by selling Girl Scout cookies to go to this camp.
In fourth grade, she got an award for having the best grades in her class.
She taught herself to read and write at four years old.
Jesus Christ. She loved learning. She devoured books.
She also loved dancing and gymnastics. She was just like a cool little girl.
Yeah, all three of them just sound like the coolest little girls.
She had one little sister who was five at the time and her and Denise were inseparable.
Denise loved her. Like took care of her.
The one thing that she was most upset about was she didn't want to leave her little sister.
Oh. Yeah. I know. It like. it really breaks your heart.
Because you're like, don't, just don't. do it and so when they when they when she was saving up to go to this camp Oh. going to the camp so she suddenly got very anxious about going and she was not psyched to go Yeah.
She was very excited. And then like, yeah, that's when your friends decide not to go.
Like we've all had something similar like that.
Exactly. Especially when you're little, too.
That's the thing. So her mom said in one of the articles I found about it, She said, but I convinced her that she should go and try it, that it would help her to be more independent and that if she didn't like it, all she had to do was call and we would come and get her oh my god uh her letter that she wrote was the one that breaks my heart Dear mom, I don't like camp.
It's awful. The first day it rained. I have three new friends though named Glenda, Lori, and Michelle.
Michelle and Lori are my roommates. Mom, I don't want to stay at camp for two weeks.
I want to come home and see Cassie and everybody.
Your loving child, Denise Milner. Yeah.
Oh. Yeah. So... The fact... Oh, my God. I wish that she could have, like, told the counselor, and they could have called the mom... that night.
Well, no, just wait. No, no, no. So when Denise got on the bus to go to camp initially, She like broke down, like got upset.
And a counselor, it was like a counselor in training.
She was only 15. I think she was a preschooler.
Previous camper. Yeah. And she was helping out the older counselors.
So she wasn't like a counselor. They didn't leave the kids with the casino.
She was a CIT counselor. Her name was Michelle Hoffman, and she testified that she saw this, like saw her breaking down. approached her and her mother and was like, I will sit with you.
I'll like take care of you. Don't worry about it.
So she sat with her on the bus and she comforted her and she told her how fun it was going to be and all that good stuff.
And she said she calmed her down a little bit, but before they had taken off on the bus... her mom, Denise's mom came on the bus and was like, can you please make sure that if Denise wants to call me that you make sure she can call me?
Oh, Like, please help her call me. So she was like, absolutely, we will.
Like, no problem. And she told her, if you want to come home, I will come and get you.
But I want you to try it. Which is a smart thing to do as a parent, but one that must be the most difficult thing to do.
I don't know. I honestly don't know if I couldn't do it.
I couldn't do it. But I think it is the smart thing to do in most circumstances to be like, just give it a try. like it and it's like you've made a commitment you've worked hard to get there let's give it a shot it's like when you want to do dance and then you decide you don't want to and your mom is like Stick with it.
Let's try to stick with it. You don't want to quit stuff.
So she was like, just give it a try. If you don't like it, I will happily come and get you, which is. a good haunting now so Michelle said that she had calmed her down and she was like she seemed like she was like acclimating a bit better that night I don't think she was super psyched, but I think she was just homesick.
And she made friends. Yeah, and she was just homesick.
So after they ate in the dining hall at 6 p.m., 536, Then they were told to write the letters in the tent, which we talked about.
Um, and then they did have, which I'm like, oh my God, They had a story time with all of them, gave them like some snacks, and then they were going back to the tents for bedtime.
Now, apparently, according to one of the other counselors, Dee Elder, She said that Denise got upset and was suddenly like, can I call my mom?
And this was at night, like right before bedtime.
So Dee said like she comforted her and was like, why don't you call her in the morning?
Just give it a night. And she was like, okay.
So she convinced her. At first, I was like, what the fuck, Dee?
Let her call her mom. I know, I'm mad. But I understand that, like...
I think they are shown that because, you know, that doesn't make it better.
Calling your mom makes it worse because you're like, I want to be. you know what I mean like I want to get you like I know if I talked to my mom it always like made it worse I was like please come get me I need you And so I think that counselors, and I might be wrong, counselors can tell me,
They are probably told to, first line of defense, try to convince the kid to stick it out before they...
Just immediately let them call home. Well, because you know eventually they are, like in most cases, that eventually they're going to acclimate and have a great time.
Nine times at a time. At the end of this camp, be like, oh, I'm so happy I stayed.
Exactly. And it's like if they wake up in the morning and they say, I'm still upset and I want to call her, I'll absolutely call her.
So I can't fault any of them for that. That just that must be hard.
I couldn't do it. Like, good for those counselors having to be able to do that.
So step one, no. Step one, no. But I was that kid who would have been a fucking mess.
Like I did not like leaving my parents. I never wanted to go away to camp.
I would like... I went to a softball camp once.
Yeah. Like... 40 minutes away from my house I called my mom the first night and was like I can't stay here and I was supposed to stay there for like a week and I was like no I just couldn't do it.
I love that. So I was a total homebody. I did not like it.
So I feel Denise on that level. just breaks my heart that she felt that way and how it ended.
It was just a... confirmation of every greatest irrational fear that you have in that situation which is I want my parents.
Something bad is going to happen. I'm scared.
I wonder if she had some kind of like feeling.
You wonder if she had a gut feeling that something bad and she couldn't pinpoint it, but she was like, I want to get the fuck out of here.
I think about all the times you hear people like even 9-11 is the first thing that comes to mind.
People that were supposed to get on that plane were like, for some reason, I just didn't.
I didn't want to. Like, it felt wrong. You know.
Sometimes people just know. And I think with kids, it's a feeling, but they can't really pinpoint it.
So maybe she was just like, I don't like this.
I'm not feeling good about this. things off and I want to call my mom and her poor mother hearing that must shatter you i hate i can't even fathom so yeah i told you this was a It's a rough one.
I love kids so much. This is a really rough one.
It's a really rough one. But I think it's one that needs to be told mainly.
One, because they need justice. Right, because it's unsolved, technically.
This is unsolved, and it's infuriating. And I want them to solve this shit.
I just want to go to your house after this and like snuggle with Just hug the girls, I know.
So Lights Out was technically between like 10 and 10.30 where they're like, all right guys, calm down and go to sleep.
It's pretty late. They never went to sleep right then, you know.
And it's the first night. Anytime you were at like a sleepover or anything, like that's not gonna be it.
No. So they were all like giggling, telling, you know, probably like spooky stories and all that.
Yeah. So around 1230 a.m., which is technically June 13th, A counselor, Carla, I think it's White?
Carla Willight. Willight. That's what it is.
Carla Willight. These counselors are like between 18 and 20 years old.
So they're older. enough that young to be taking care of 140 kids very young yeah but older like not a 15 year old yeah like that's like you feel a little better yeah like hopefully I don't want a 20 year old in charge of any of my children for two weeks.
No, I'm sorry. But I wouldn't. this just isn't my scene at all.
So Carla Willight woke up and she heard, you know, some of the girls were laughing And they seemed like they were coming from like the bathroom.
So she was like, I gotta go get them. So she got up.
They were. They were just, like, giggling in the bathroom together, like, just being little girls.
And it wasn't them. It was, like, some other...
Yeah, some other campers. And so she, you know, brought them back to their tent.
I believe it was tent... technically one.
So she had to bring them all the way back to tent one.
She was like, guys, you got to go to sleep.
Go back to sleep. So 1.30 a.m., Carla and the other counselor, Dee... wake up and hear more girls giggling in 10-4.
So they're like, fucking go to sleep. Which I'm sure this is a very regular night.
Oh yeah. At this point like you're constantly waking up all night probably.
Yeah. So Carla goes to that tent and as she's walking to the tent, she hears this weird sound from the perimeter, like the forest.
And she's like that. And when she explains it, you can tell like she has, she's like, uh, like this was not, an animal that was the fuck was that my that was my ice maker scared the shit out that was really Good timing.
You can tell Carla was like, it was like an ice maker.
It was weird. No, it was a low guttural moaning sound. she said.
A cross between like a frog and like a bullfrog and like something else.
It was like a guttural moan. Do you remember the bullfrogs in Maine?
I hate it. I hate it. I used to have a house in Maine when I lived with my life donor.
And holy shit. Holy shit. That place was so creepy.
And the frogs at night sound like they're screaming.
Yeah, it sounds like people screaming. Literally sounds like a bunch of murderies.
And that's the thing. It's like these counselors, a lot of them were...
We're campers at one point. They've all done this.
They've all been trained in this. Maybe that's some kind of animal.
Well, for her to be like, that's not... An animal?
Like, I don't know what that is. Means bad news for animals.
So she was like, it was a little weird, so she shone the flashlight over there, and then it just stopped.
Oh, she was like, OK. But she said she heard it like on and off throughout the night.
So she was like, what the fuck? And she said.
She also ended up seeing a very dim light in the forest.
It looked like dim and small. And she was like, what the fuck is that?
Like a lantern or something. Yeah. So she was like, what is that?
And so she shone her light at it and it turned off.
Fuck that. And she was getting freaked out herself and she's like, I think I'm just like... like seeing shit and like being I don't know so during so she ends up in that position yeah and you're in charge of all these kids So she tells the girls and the kid, like, you know, you got to be quiet.
And then she rushes back to her tent because she's like, I don't want to be out here.
I don't want to blame her for anything, but she should have checked on all the tents.
Yes. There's nothing that says that each time they checked on each one, but she very well could have.
It's just not listed in there. I hope she did.
I hope she did. But to be honest, she probably didn't. because there was a point where something really bad happened and she had no idea so So during this time also, while everyone's sleeping, there were items stolen from the tents.
Somebody was reaching in and taking things.
I'm sorry. Yeah. What? Because they were missing, like, purses, like... a ton of a lot of eyeglasses were stolen which will come back later so like hang on to that little nugget that like eyeglasses were taken And then there comes in another report.
Some other counselor and some other camper saw that dim light. in the woods and it was near the Kiowa unit.
So, They're like, this is weird. And it's not like a flashlight flashlight.
It was dim. So they were like, what is that?
Now, I'm picturing like those candles that you put in your window's during the holidays it kind of I think it was kind of like that yeah or like a flashlight that somebody put something over so it's not super bright Then campers heard screaming.
Oh no. And people apparently ignored this because kids and giggling and screaming and you know, I mean, you know, my kids, they scream all the time.
Oh my God. And they taught the youngest how to scream.
Yeah. So anybody listening would think that they were in like great peril but they're just running around living yeah they're just literally sitting there screaming at each other So I'm sure these kids are probably doing the same thing all night, which it's like, sure.
But like, maybe go check. I don't know.
Just check. There's no harm in over-checking, I feel.
I would be in these tents every 10 minutes.
Which like, honestly, I feel like they should have had some kind of system where you check every like half hour.
I think there should have been shifts done that every half hour someone has to wake their ass up and they have to walk to every tent.
Make sure everybody's okay. Go to sleep.
Next one does it in the next half hour. I mean, you're a camp counselor.
It's not. supposed to be it's a job yeah you're not like having the most fun so get up go do it yeah I think that should definitely be a thing so get up uh so yeah so then 2 a.m rolls around and the other unit near the kiowa unit heard another like screamy kind of voice and then they reported that they heard a girl and this is really going to hurt, say scream, mama, mama.
Oh, nope, nope, nope. again later, they would say that, you know, It's always loud, especially the first night.
Kids are giggling and screaming. I'm sorry.
Yelling mama, though? Mama? I don't care if the kid's sleeping and saying it in their sleep.
Go check. Mm-hmm. I mean... Some kid's yelling mama.
To me, that would be, I'd be so, I'd be there quicker than I could blink. yeah that's like a warning that should be an instinct yeah like go take care of that person yeah That should set off alarm bells again.
I don't know. I'm not blaming these counselors because again, they were 18 to 20 year olds.
No. way not equipped to deal with this shit and on top of it who i am blaming is the camp Because the camp directors and the people running this shit did not prepare these counselors for shit, by the way.
Right, right. Because they had like a meeting beforehand, obviously, where they were told like security measures and all that.
But were there security measures? Which there were none.
Clearly not. And they basically were just told, if you see anybody, an intruder in the woods or anything, tell them it's private property.
Okay, like do you think a murderer gives a fuck?
I'm pretty sure they know. You shouldn't.
And it's like they weren't taught to deal with, like, what if somebody comes in and attacks a kid?
What do I do? Like, can we have pepper spray?
At the very least. And it's like most people that I read would say like, well, no one could have planned for this.
Of course not. But that's why you have... the end of the world apocalyptic plan.
If everything falls to shit, this is what you do.
It sounds like there was... Like, virtually no precaution here.
Yeah. Like, at all. Like, there needs to be some kind of precaution.
Yeah. They needed to... the whole thing was set up poorly.
The fact that these counselors were in their own tent away from all the other kids.
But they couldn't even see the kids. It's like nothing made sense.
This doesn't make sense. It's not safe. No, it's not safe.
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And later, one of the parents of one of the victims said if they had seen the tent that their kid was going to sleep in, they would have never allowed their Oh, I believe that.
I wouldn't sleep in that. Fuck that. Anybody, like you just said, anybody reaching can just reach right the fuck in.
No. It's just flapped. No. Like there's nothing.
No. Yeah. So during the same night in the Kiowa unit, which is the unit the three victims were in, In tent number six, I believe, one of the girls said she woke up in the middle of the night to a light, a flashlight shining in and somebody like opened the flap.
And she said when she sat up and looked, it was clearly a man standing there with a flashlight.
What the fuck? And she said they sat there and stared at them, and then they put the flap down and walked away towards the last tent. what?
So I don't know what that's about. I don't know.
Like to me, that's really creepy. Um, And they said it was very much of like a big male.
And they said they flashed it. And all the counselors said we did not do that.
That was not us. That's terrifying. Yeah.
So to me, that was the killer. And here.
OK, so this is just like my true crime mind being like fucked up.
I wonder if he like saw those girls and were like. they're older like no thanks yeah i wonder if who knows why these ones were chosen.
To me, it seems like they were chosen because they were the last ones in the row furthest away.
But it's weird that he just like looked at those girls and then was like, nah.
Yeah. And it could be because he's shown the flashlight in there and she woke up.
Yeah. Because to what we'll see is it seems like at least two out of the three of the victims were you know bludgeoned in their sleep basically so i don't think they were looking for people they didn't want kids screaming i think they wanted silence Now, 6 a.m. the next morning.
So, like, it's a weird night, whatever. Yeah, a really fucking weird night.
6 AM, Carla wakes up. the counselor and she's like, I'm going to be the first one to get to the showers.
The showers were actually the thing that was really blocking the view. to the last tent.
Like the whole building was blocking it.
So there was no way they could see that.
So they were like behind a building? Yeah, it's like wraps around.
It's like the shower is in the middle. And then the tents kind of wrap around in a semicircle around the shower, extending out from the counselor's tent.
Oh. So theirs was kind of wrapped around the back of that building where you couldn't see them.
That's fucked up. Yeah, totally obstructed.
No way. So this is 6 AM. Carly gets up.
She's on her way to the shower. And as she's walking, she notices some sleeping bags near the roadside.
And it was like outside of their tent. And she's like, what is going on?
So she's like, that's weird. So she's like, I should go see if somebody dropped their stuff when they were coming in or what.
So now they were approximately 150 yards from the last tent.
So these sleeping bags, which were the victim's sleeping bags, were 150 yards from their tent.
Yeah. And pass to the counselor's tent.
Yeah. So whoever did this, walk to them past the counselor's tent.
Yeah, that's not good. Now when she approaches the sleeping bags... she sees the battered body of Denise Milner on top of one of them.
She is not in good shape. She is nude from the waist down.
Oh, no. Her night shirt had been pulled up.
Her hands were bound behind her back with tape and cord.
What? She had been strangled with cord, which was still around her neck.
She had also been bludgeoned in the face.
There were also two other sleeping bags near her body, but they were both zipped up completely.
Oh, God. Now, before she does anything, Carla runs back to the counselor's tent and wakes Dee and the other counselor, Susan Ewing, to have them check all the other tents, like all the tents.
Because they don't know At first they're like, who the fuck is this?
I don't even know. Like, go check to see who's missing.
So they run and they check all the tents. they see that the girls are missing in the last tent.
So Carla then goes and gets the nurse because she didn't touch the body.
She was like, I don't know what's going on. runs and gets the nurse and is like, there's a medical event, I don't know what's going on, here it is, go find it.
So the nurse runs towards Denise. And while that's happening, she runs...
Carla then runs to the camp director's home, which is very nearby.
It's like right on the campus. and tells her what's going on.
This is Barbara Day and her husband Richard.
They both come out to the scene. The nurse immediately informs them Denise is very dead.
Richard attempts to move one of the other sleeping bags because they didn't know at this point what was going on.
Yeah. discovered there's something very heavy in both of them.
So Richard then takes the third, this just like hurt my soul, Richard took the third sleeping bag that Denise was on top of and actually placed it over her.
So no one would see her naked lower half.
And he said, he was like, I just wanted her to like maintain her dignity. the youngest she's the oldest sorry okay she was the 10 year old but i mean she's fucking 10 denise is the one who didn't want to come to camp and wanted to call her mother.
Yeah. So Richard, which I was like, good for him, like trying to maintain her dignity.
Not awesome for crime scene, but like... I would do the same thing.
I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing.
For my heart, sure. Even knowing all that I know, I feel like I would have to.
It's like an innate feeling. And I feel like that's like a, because they also had a child.
So I feel like that's a very paternal thing.
Yeah. So the police come, they open the bags, and inside of the two bags that were zipped up is the body of Lori Farmer and... and the body of Michelle Gouzet.
They had both died of blunt force trauma to the back of the head.
They think that they were struck while they were sleeping.
Later it was determined that they had been bludgeoned and both killed inside the tent. because of the massive amounts of blood they found in the tent near their beds and spattered on the canvas walls around their beds.
Denise, they think was taken into the woods alive and then murdered.
What? She was on top of the sleeping bag.
The other two were likely carried out into the woods in their sleeping bags. they think that she was walked out there, Denise.
Like, fully... with it awake, alive. Walked past the counselor's tent.
And what happened, and we'll find out why nobody heard her or anything like that, Were the other two bound like she was?
So Michelle was... slightly bound. Her arms were bound to the sides of her, almost in a hog tie. position, Lori was not bound.
Okay. Uh, Michelle. Yes. So it's strange.
She was bound with the same cord to the sides of her, not in the back, not in the front.
It was like... weird hog tie thing. That's strange.
They did find out later that Denise and Michelle were raped.
Oh. Semen evidence was found during autopsy, but Lori was inconclusive and it's possible she was just killed immediately, they think. because she also bore very little like outward injuries to her.
The other two were much more gruesome and much more like apparent.
So maybe like... Who was the middle one again?
Sorry. Michelle. Michelle. Maybe she like woke up in the middle of it.
Yeah. They think that Michelle was killed. second.
They definitely think Laurie was killed first, Michelle second, and then Denise.
All three girls were sexually assaulted, were molested, but Denise and Michelle were the ones that were actually raped.
They were the ones that they found semen.
That's sickening. On scene, among other things, they found beer bottles. and a crowbar that could have been used, but because they said their injuries were so extensive, especially the other two.
Right. Uh, but again, 77, what are you gonna do with it?
Ear bottles. Oh yeah. The thought of that being used.
Yeah. Michelle, like I said, was found with the same cord that was wrapped around Denise, was wrapped around her arms.
Denise was killed by asphyxiation, likely strangulation with the ligature, although she did have bludgeoning to her face, but that's not what killed her.
And she had a... fabric gag stuffed in her mouth.
And the gag was like sewn, like a handmade gag.
What the fuck? So this person had planned this out like a lot.
What? That is sick. Mm-hmm. So she was likely there was also, I read in some reports that she was also blindfolded.
Oh no. So she was likely walked out there with a gag in her mouth with her hands behind her back. potentially blindfolded.
And that's why no one could hear her. Blindfolding and gagging is...
Just removing all senses. It's like, ugh.
It stresses me out. So officer Harold Berry was the first officer on scene and he was there quickly because he actually lived very close by.
Thank God. He made it. he tried to cordon off that scene as best he could.
He like really went for it. Um, Sheriff Pete Weaver arrived very quickly after Harold. was determined immediately that Denise was the last killed, obviously, and that she was Definitely more recently killed than the other two by like a good amount.
Interesting. She was kept alive a little longer.
Denise had a body temp of around 70 degrees Fahrenheit.
And Laurie and Michelle had already begun to show, go into rigor.
So... They were definitely killed before her.
Investigators said Lori in particular looked like she was sleeping and could just wake up.
Oh my god. They said her injuries, like I said, were not very obvious.
It was to the back of her head. That must have been horrible to see because it For some reason, even when you know that somebody is dead, I feel like they probably had hope like, oh, she's dead. she'll wake up and just this like little angelic baby face this eight-year-old like think of oh don't think yeah i was gonna say don't think of anything sorry But the other two had much more apparent injuries and were much more gruesome.
Much more peaceful. Yeah, so near the bodies, investigators also found a big red 6-volt flashlight.
And the one with like those ones with the handles.
Yeah. Like the big like bucket ones. And this thing had a weird cover over the lens. like and the lens had a pinhole cut into it oh that's weird so that it would cast a very dim light yeah like the one people said they saw in the woods.
So this person was clearly fucking lurking around and count the people had seen him yeah that's weird as fuck yeah Also, inside the flashlight, they later discovered that there was like wadded up newspaper that was in there to keep the battery connected.
And also sometimes like it like jiggles and you can hear it.
Yeah, that's it. So it's like, yeah. So they would put that in there to keep it in place.
Um, they found in, that's going to come back later.
So just remember that little newspaper. Uh, there was also a newspaper.
There you go. So there's also a partial role of black electrical tape, which I grew up with electrical to my house everywhere because my dad's an electrician and so is my brother.
One time, Alina and her brother, my uncle, the electrical taped me to a chair. like for funsies we did I was the youngest you know sibling things There was also the cord that was found around two of the girls, a pair of glasses, and And then inside the tent was bloody shoe and boot prints.
Okay. So they were already like, what the fuck? um can you imagine working this scene no no way no And there's pictures, like not gruesome pictures or anything, you can't see them.
But you can see the scene, and you can see the officers standing over the scene, and they just look like...
Like, most of them are just standing there with their head down, like, what the fuck?
Also, imagine being a little girl in the tent.
Like, imagine being tent six. Well, that's the other thing.
So immediately they were like, we have to go. close this down and they have to go home but we can't they were like we can't tell any of the campers they can't know No.
Which we'll get into. So the autopsy also later determined that... which this is strange because it's like, people are like, how did he, how did they do three girls?
Like one person? Yeah. Was it multiple? people yeah and then seeing the boot prints and the sneaker prints in there in the tent kind of leads you to believe there's more than one Because where the sneaker prints like full, like adult shoes.
That's what they, so some of them were found to be adult shoes, like seven and a half.
You know what I mean? Like actual adult shoes.
And the boot print was like a military boot print.
Yeah. but there was also a lot of contamination of the scene and some of the like federal officers that came in here actually accidentally left a palm print in the scene and shit i How the fuck do you, you're a federal officer and you accidentally leave a print?
It was It was a pretty botched scene at some point.
It's not good. Like, come on. You're dealing with a triple homicide of a child.
And it looks like they tried initially to keep this contained and then it just all fell apart.
Right. So the autopsy later determined that weapons were used on the girls with someone using their left hand and right hand.
So it's either that somebody switched hands or it's somebody who's left-handed and somebody who's right-handed.
That's true. I mean, if you think about one person, though, obviously your arm's going to get fucking tired.
So maybe you're switching. Yeah. And then also, though, there were different nots. in some of the, so that can either be someone switching it up or it can be two different people tying them.
This is a weird thing to say, but think of switching hands.
I couldn't use a hammer with my left hand.
No, my left hand would not give a good. I couldn't. yeah so like we were just talking about the camp immediately closed because they were like holy shit They tell the parents?
They didn't tell any of the campers. What they told the parents was an accident happened.
Yeah, that's one way to put it. Yes. So they bust them from Camp Scott to Tulsa Girl Scout, um, Magic Empire Council Headquarters, which is like the place that runs the Girl Scout thing.
Magic Empire. Magic Empire. Meanwhile, they called the parents, said there was an accident.
They did tell these... three parents that their children died in an accident.
And then when they said, what, what, they said nothing else. can't tell you anything you have to though that's their parents so now all these other parents though are just being told there's an accident and girls have died.
But they're not telling them who. So these other parents don't know?
Are showing up to pick their kids up at this place... fucking panicking being like is my child there like what is going on it's just fucking crazy what the fuck yeah not knowing who Who was the one in the accident?
In the accident? Yeah. So at 1140, it wasn't until, um, like 11 PM. that Richard Gousset, who's Michelle's father, was called at work by his wife, Georgeanne, who told him Michelle was dead, but she had no idea how, like didn't know anything about it.
Cause if like, I mean, you're at like a summer girl scout camp, it's like you're thinking drowned and obviously no matter what your child's dead, that's horrific.
But you don't know that your child has been murdered brutally and assaulted?
That's the thing that kills me. And what kills me even further is, we'll find out in a second, the way they did find out is shameful.
Well, because think of it, that's like two hits.
Yeah. Like, oh, first you think your kid died and you're just, you're thinking it's an accident.
You're grieving. an accident and then you get told they were brutally murdered that's a completely different hit from a totally different story Exactly.
That's fucked. When it's an accident, it's bad enough.
That's a whole different thing of grief.
Your child died at their first day of summer camp.
Then to hear that they were raped and murdered.
What? Like you're already trying to figure out what the fuck happened and then you get that?
Well, then Lori Farmer's parents were not able to be contacted initially because they were both at work.
And so the camp officials used their emergency contact, who was a family friend, so it was the family friend who happened to who had to call and tell them like lori died god and they were like what do you mean and she was like it's an accident i don't know and they were like put that on somebody else jesus yeah so bonnie brewster who was a friend of the farmer family She was also the executive director of the Magic Empire Council.
She refused to tell this family what had happened to Lori and wouldn't even tell them what she had for dinner that night.
Like wouldn't give them any information.
These poor people waited hours and hours and hours.
Why couldn't they say what she had for dinner.
And one of the things Lori's father is quoted as saying how he found out, it was from the executive director of the Girl Scouts.
I found out later that we were the third people they called.
First, they called their insurance company.
Second, their attorney. Then they called us.
What a bunch of shit stains. Fuckers. Fuckers called their fucking insurance company and then an attorney They covered their own asses.
Before they called an eight year old baby's parents.
Wow. To tell them that under their fucking watch, under their janky ass operation.
Quote unquote watch. Their daughter was brutally murdered and no one fucking knew about it.
You call your insurance company first? It...
Are you kidding me? Are you a human? You want to know how these parents found out that their children were murdered?
The news? The news. All of them saw it on the fucking news.
Because this camp and these directors and these fuckers wouldn't tell them shit.
And they had to find out on the fucking news the media found out before the next of kin.
That's insane. When that happens, it's so fucked up.
It's like when. We were talking about the Lauren Giddings case and her father found out through like her uncle.
Yeah. Because of the media? Wow, that's so fucked.
It is so being... How do you sit there like obviously that I'm sorry, obviously that person didn't have kids or like care about a kid at all, because how do you sit there? and call your insurance company and your attorney and then be like, well, I guess next I have to call their parent.
Yeah, I guess I should call the parents of this little baby.
Like, obviously you don't want to. I get that.
But that's your first call. What? Like, fuck the insurance.
Fuck the attorney. Call the parents and let them start the grieving.
Like, what the fuck is wrong? Well, why didn't the police contact the penguins?
It's insane. The whole thing is insane. None of that makes any sense.
The entire thing is insane. Obviously it's hard because I'm sure nothing like this had ever happened before.
Oh, of course not. But what? And that's the only thing that you can grip on it to is like, I'm sure it was fucking pandemonium and no one knew what to do because again, you do not think that Girl Scouts are going to be brutally murdered on their first day of camp.
That's never happened. So it's like, Of course, this is going to be fucked up.
But use the thing between. I'm going to say something my dad always says.
Use the thing between your ears. Grey matter.
Use the gray matter between your ears. Can I ask, well, ruin the story if I ask if the camp opened up the next year.
No, we'll ruin the story. The camp closed down and never opened up again.
Okay, good. I'm happy to hear that. And some people were upset about it, but to those people, I say, what the actual fuck?
I would go ahead and send them a heavy fuck you.
I also say... Who in their right mind would send their kid to a camp after this?
Who was mad? This camp. Who, like, parents were mad?
The people, well, H.J. and a friend. florence their the son their child i think their son like took over the whole thing after them and was like i think it should have been opened up like it's a tragedy You feel good.
You would feel safe having kids there. like kids eventually watch the news like they're gonna hear their parents talking about you think any fucking kid would want to come there ever again and it's like yeah you know the shit you're gonna be dealing with at midnight that's and it's like yeah honey i know like you just saw that three girls were raped and murdered at that camp but like Suck it up, Buttercup.
Just go and give it a try. What? No. You know what he was mad about, and I have no problem saying it?
He lost money, and I don't give a fuck. yeah this is money this was not thinking of humanity over anything else People are so fucked.
Sorry, we just got, I'm not sorry. Yeah, I'm not sorry.
I'm fucking pissed. Sorry, not sorry. And the Farmer family still feels the Girl Scout Council should absolutely be held accountable for the safety and what happened to them.
There was a lawsuit later, which we're going to get into in part two, that is infuriating.
I'm sure they didn't win it just because you said it's infuriating.
I'm pissed. So, yeah. It's just so frustrating.
So now they're just trying to, now it's like a manhunt.
Who the hell did this? They're trying to figure out who did this.
June 14th, so the next day, a camper named Wilma Tennant said that She was the one who woke up and she heard screams and she said she told a counselor.
And that the counselor told her everything's fine.
Go back to sleep. No, everything's not fine.
A girl is in the middle of the woods. Exactly.
On that same day, they actually took the wooden platform from the tent. and they actually airlifted it to a crime lab so they could test everything.
There was a ton of blood on the floor, but it looked like someone had wiped it up or attempted to wipe it up.
According to GirlScoutMurders.com, which I suggest you go to that website, they have every bit of information you need about this like wow you could get lost is that just this case or were there more girls just this case yeah It's a little misleading.
It looked like they had used towels and also had used the sheets off the beds.
The sheets were found crumpled up in the sleeping bags.
So whoever did this stuck around and cleaned up a little.
Trying to wipe it up. That's weird. Yeah.
They also found that tennis shoe and boot print in there, so they wanted to do further testing on it.
So I just want to put out there, because already we're like, what the fuck camp, Scott?
What is going on? Well, let me tell you a couple of things that happened at this camp before.
Like, in years previous. Yeah, and very close, like, weeks previous.
Oh, my God. That Noah was paying attention to.
I'm going to have to walk away. So on the Saturday before the camp opened, before this one opened, the camp director's husband Richard came across a stranger walking around the camp.
And he was carrying a clear plastic jug and he was just like, this is private property.
Okay. But like nothing else was done about it.
Awesome. That's probably fine. So there was a camp ranger named Ben Woodward.
He was like one of the only males on the campground.
He was also a caretaker. He was like a part-time counselor, part-time caretaker.
Sure. He had found, right before the session, a slashed tent flap.
And he said there was like a four to five square inch section that was removed. that somebody had clearly removed.
That's called a fucking warning sign. And he said it was sometime in the hours before all of these girls arrived on that Sunday.
That's a warning sign. That's like, hi, I'm about to fuck shit up because I'm crazy.
Oh, yeah. And then the week before this opening, two counselors said they were followed back to their tents by someone with a flashlight in the woods, and another counselor saw a man literally outside of her tent.
And then counselor Michelle Hoffman, the 15 year old, she said that somebody had brought like donuts in.
I think it was in during the like session that they were doing right before the camp open where they like Like told them everything, whatever.
Somebody brought donuts in a box. that the donuts were taken out of the box and somebody had left a note in the box.
And it said, she testified to this. It said in capital letters, it was printed. we are on a mission to kill three girls in tent one.
And it was signed the killer or something like that.
What? Yep. And you opened up the camp. Yep.
And Michelle Hoffman said the note scared the shit out of her.
So she brought it to the counselors, but Barbara Olmsted, the coordinator of the spring session, said, it's probably just a prank, and she threw the note away.
So when this all happened... What a cunt.
And when this all happened, they were like, where's that note?
And she was like, I tossed it. Why would you throw that away you idiot?
That is literal evidence at this point. You're an idiot.
Like, are you kidding me? She testified that she said when they... And this is... astounding to me she was like well when she gave me that note when the counselors gave me the note to like tell me that this had happened they didn't tell me that a tent had also been ransacked I don't give a fuck.
I don't think you need any more context other than we're gonna kill little kids in tent one, you dumb asshole.
That's what... Because I'm like... Are you dumb?
Okay, Babs. Okay. What? Let me just... Let me attempt to get into that... fucking abyss that you call a cranium and and just think about this for a second So a counselor comes to you and she says, hi, hi, there's this letter that was left in a donut box, which like rude, they took the donuts. but it was left in a donut box and it's like we are literally on a mission to kill three little girls in your camp.
And in tent one, like we're prepared. And hearing that, she was like, Okay, and?
And if she was like, and also, they made a mess in there.
Yeah. Like that's when you would lose it.
Like the ransacking is the thing that she didn't tell me.
The note is signed the killer. And you're like, you know, well, can you get an extra, extra sleeping bag from the cabin over there?
You know what? come back when you have something solid.
And then she's like, well, somebody did make a mess in there too.
And she's like, well, fuck, we need to call the FBI.
What? Like, what? That is just, that's flabbergasting.
Unbelievable. So the same year, April 1st, so this was like what?
Wait, hold on. So obviously... Sorry to totally interrupt you.
No. But obviously somebody in... at least one person but probably multiple people are just like camping out in the woods like waiting for this shit to open seeing how fucking janky this operation is.
Oh, yeah. Because like, why do you think they picked tent one?
Of course. They know this whole operation. part of me is like were they at that meeting like like what is going on that and we'll find out the more shit they find in those woods that people were hanging around waiting for this shit.
Obviously. And then back in April, so like about a month or two before it opened.
There was money stolen in the camp by someone.
There was a peeping Tom reported at like the year before.
So this is clearly like a buildup of crazy events.
And they have done nothing to secure this place after all these events.
That's what kills me. These are all warning signs.
Of course they couldn't prevent people being dicks.
But when people are dicks and show up and like start fucking with shit. you do shit to make it more secure.
That's what you're supposed to do. Well, and to me, this is somebody that's like starting off small to be able to start scare you a little bit, scare you a little bit more, scare you a little bit more.
Here is what I'm going to do. And I think you're too dumb to even stop me.
Yeah. And then you are. And then this happens.
A fucking explosion. Exactly. It's insane.
Wow. Now, June 14th, that same day, so the day after this all happened.
There was a group of campfire girls that were supposed to be showing up into their camp, which was like a different camp down the way.
Okay. And they began their summer sessions and they had to be accompanied by armed guards, but they stayed. what i'd be like were their parents told like fuck that shit they saw it on the news if my kid had to like wanted to go to this summer camp and they were like,
Yeah. So like, we're still going to have it all set up and there's going to be armed guards.
I'm sorry. No. That's traumatic in and of itself.
Armed guards. I went to camp with an I had an armed guard assigned to my camp.
Exactly. That's the thing. Well, and then And Camp Garland, which was a Boy Scout camp, was only three miles away from this camp, and it stayed open.
No. is a fuckery. Only 13 parents came to get their kids that day.
I'm sorry, parents. What the fuck is up?
What the fuck is up Kyle? It was never closed.
And then June 15th the next day. is when they brought in some tracker dogs because they were like, we got to start bringing out the big guns.
The media called these dogs the Wonder Dogs.
They were two German Shepherds and one Rottweiler that were specially trained dogs. for like cadaver dogs and like tracking dogs.
That's awesome. Their names were Harris, Dutch, and Butts.
Butts? I love it. I love butts. They were flown in from Pennsylvania.
I'm pretty sure it was boots or something, but it looks like butts.
It's butts. I don't give a fuck. So they were able to track where the killer had entered and where they had exited.
Yeah. They followed a scent. They determined the killer or killers had walked by the counselor's tent to get where the scent was leading to the victim's tent.
So they entered this camp through the front right past the counselor's tent, got the girls, and then walked them right past the counselor's tent again.
Here's the other deal. Why is there not some kind of guard at the front of this operation.
This scenario. Wow. Yeah. So yeah, so then three of the counselors were questioned on the 16th.
They said that eyeglasses and glasses cases were stolen.
That is just weird. What does that mean?
One of these were found... like along the path that the killer took.
So they were like, of course they were questioning these girls being like, what the fuck?
And they were like, yeah, that was stolen from me.
And again, they said that there was a blue denim purse that was stolen from the counselor's tent.
And it was in the Kiowa unit. And it was done the night of the murders.
Oh, that's freaky. Because she said she went to bed and that was in her tent.
Her purse was there. Yeah. That's terrifying.
A telephone hotline was set up for people to call in.
They were hoping that the killer would just call confess because of like guilt so they just put it up there to be like just let's give it a shot you just killed three little children yeah and the district attorney at the time said sometimes people with deranged minds just want to be caught So we have to try it.
Think of like the weepy voice killer. Yeah.
The Oklahoma governor, David Boren, on the 21st said that he would bring in the National Guard to help this.
But the sheriff Weaver said no. Why would you say no?
Because he was like, we're fine. You're not.
I'm sorry, Sheriff Weaver. Like, you've not dealt with something like this before.
Like, get the fucking help. Whenever they refuse help, I'm like, can you just put that fucking ego down for one goddamn second and let the help come?
Especially when it comes to a child murder.
Triple homicide of children in a fucking Girl Scout camp?
This is unprecedented. And you're going to be like, nope, I got this.
Get the fucking help. No, you don't. So he was like no thank you.
Stupid. Yeah. It's insane. They ended up questioning five Boy Scouts at a nearby, at the Camp Garland. because in May, I guess, what was it? it this kid who they described as pale and skinny like a teenager said he came into the boy scout camp while they were camping.
And he just like ate food with them and like didn't speak to anybody.
Pretty weird. Then he stole a hatchet, a hunting knife, and I think some food, and then just left.
And they were like, yeah. And they were like, did you tell anyone?
And they were like, yeah. Did anyone do anything?
No. Like, okay. So they were like, good, good.
That's scary. So now they're starting to investigate because they're not getting any leads at this point.
Just... Shit was going down, but we don't know what.
So much shit was going down. But there's nothing to latch on to.
No. So after they started investigating, because again, They have a lot of evidence at the scene, but not a lot they can do with it.
That's the problem. So they look into the tape and the rope that was on Denise and on Michelle.
Yeah, and they found that this particular tape and cord had been stolen out of a nearby farmhouse It was a farmhouse that sat on a 110-acre ranch.
It was owned by 51-year-old Jack Shroff.
And he said his home was burglarized. There were things stolen from it. and that tape and cord matched part of things that were in his house.
So, and then there was also evidence that a campfire had been set up that night at a pond on the property of the ranch.
So somebody was like hanging out waiting.
That is so spooky. So of course when they see that shit matches stuff in his house, they're like...
What were you up to that night? So he ended up having an alibi.
He was like out of town and they confirmed it.
He also voluntarily took a lie detector test and he passed.
Sorry, Jack. While this is going on, the newspaper prints his photo in it with the word Slayer under it.
Oh, my God. Which he was completely cleared.
Right. And they were like, what the fuck?
Now we're just going to alienate this man.
Holy shit. That's awesome. So then, so now they've totally fucked this guy over.
Cause then they were like, whoops, sorry.
He's fine. they like update it not a slayer and now they're like who could have done this like we don't have any idea so then chef weaver out of nowhere.
It's like, what about this guy named Jean Leroy Hart?
And they're like, what? And he's like, okay, well, this guy, so it sounds out of nowhere, but what this guy had been was a wanted man. who was out on the run.
For what? In this area. So he was on the run.
He had been on the run for four years at this point in the area.
He had escaped out of Mays County Jail. It was under Weaver's watch, which people were like, you seem to have a special interest in this.
Weird that you just threw that name out.
And essentially he had eluded him for personally for that long so he had like a personal vendetta on this guy it's like um The sheriff in the Damien Echols case.
It's exactly like that. It's exactly like that, but what we'll see is like Jean Leroy Hart is an actual piece of shit.
So it actually happens. Even if he got this pinned on him wrongly, I wouldn't want it done for the justice for the girls, but we can pin the world's problems on Jean L'Oreal.
He's an actual piece of shit. And at least they were hopefully able to get him back into jail.
Exactly. Exactly. So he had been imprisoned because in 1966, he kidnapped two 19-year-old pregnant women in Tulsa, threw them in his trunk, drove them out to the woods in Locust Grove, the area bound them and raped them both. raped and sodomized two pregnant women.
What? He then used tape and rope or he used tape and rope for that whole thing.
Then he drove them to another place And while he was driving them, he said that they were both wearing prescription eyeglasses He took both of their eyeglasses and used them while he was driving.
So he has a weird thing with eyeglasses.
Also, why are you going to use somebody else's prescription glasses while you're driving?
And just putting it out, stolen eyeglasses.
Yeah, that is weird. Eyeglasses found at the scene.
That whole eyeglasses thing is weird. I've never heard of that in another case.
And then that alone is bad that he just kidnapped and raped two pregnant women.
Then he drove them to another place. like a secluded hill in the woods, put duct tape over their mouths and noses, covered all air holes. covered them with brush, and then just left the woods.
So he intended to murder them. He was leaving them so they would die.
They escaped because one of them was able to get the thing off of her mouse and was able to like undo her bindings jesus thank god they were able to escape so he attempted to murder them he just failed That's all.
And if you can do that to two pregnant women?
Two pregnant women. And obviously he was able to subdue two pregnant women.
Never mind three little girls that he bludgeons two of them before they can even wake up.
Right. So they said during the rape, he was making weird guttural noises.
Okay, like the ones heard at the camp that night. weird low guttural they said like animalistic noises now this is a loaded a horrible question but did this the camp counselor think that one of the girls was in the woods being raped when she heard that is that what people think I don't think so.
I think maybe I don't know if he makes those noises when he's like jacking off or something because he's probably excited about it.
But we don't know. That's weird. Because they think they were killed. between like 11 p.m. and 6 a.m.
And she heard the guttural noises before that.
Late. Right around that time. It was past that time.
Okay, so. So it's a very good possibility.
Yeah, that's fucking nice. He was married with a son at the time, by the way.
That is always the wildest shit to me when they're married and have kids and they're public wives or partners are like, I had no idea.
It's unreal. She divorced him and they never... made contact again.
I believe that. Thank goodness. So he ended up being paroled. for that crime.
That's interesting. That's my whole fucking issue with attempted murder.
It's insane. They wanted to get away with it.
Well, then he committed a few burglaries and home invasions while out on parole.
So he got caught again and he was sentenced to 305 years Because of the attempted murders, burglaries, home invasions, and then like...
The rape, the abduction, all of it together.
He escaped twice. How? The first time he was caught super quickly and put back in.
Then the second time was in 1973. He sawed through the bars of his cell with a hacksaw.
Oh, why did he have a hacksaw? Not sure.
Not sure. Okay. Yep. I was like, that's probably a bad thing.
So Jean's mother actually lives a mile away from Camp Scott. which is interesting.
That's weird. People around the area said they saw a man who looked a lot like Jean Leroy Hart, running from a cave nearby the camp, and he was carrying items that... jack shroff there said had been stolen from his farmhouse that day interesting There was a sketch put together of the suspect and it does look a lot like Jean Leroy Hart.
Oh, shit. I'm going to Google that. It's kind of insane.
So June 22nd, so immediately they're like, oh, this is all seeming to, fit together right so june 22nd two brothers are out hunting in the area They come by a cave that appears to be a domicile for a human as well.
Somebody was living in it. That is terrifying.
Also, he's so scarily. Okay. He is. They see some photos, a flashlight cover, eyeglasses.
Weird. And a newspaper. This newspaper is the same newspaper that was wadded up in the flashlight with the bodies.
Same date, same edition, same newspaper.
Shut the fuck up. So they think Hart was living in there.
I think so. Now the photos that they found, this is interesting.
When Hart was in prison at Granite Reformatory in Eastern Oklahoma, from 67 to 69.
There was a guard who was also a wedding photographer on the side, which I was like, wow.
A Gemini. Like that's a true Gemini. That is a straight up Gemini.
Yeah, I was like, wow. It really is. Well, Hart ended up being able to, he had Hart help him develop photos in the prison dark room which I was like they had a dark room okay uh but he helped him do it not sure why they had a convicted rapist developing photos like that but like The world may never know.
These. The way you just like. Floshed your hands back.
I don't know. Bazaar. I don't really know jazz hands.
So these photos in the cave. were from those photos that he developed.
So in the beginning of this whole thing, you said, like, there's some pretty solid evidence.
Solid evidence. A lot of evidence. So what I've presented to you right now is a lot of solid evidence.
Don't you dare end this right there. So I presented a lot of solid evidence.
I will fuck you up. the manhunt is like, once they find this cave, they're like, what the fuck?
This is it. Well, they find another nearby cave also that has a bunch of shit in it.
So somebody's been like... Why is everybody just cave living?
Just like weird cave like rock formations basically.
And then there's another one that's like a I think like an abandoned foundation of a home where like they there was like underground like a basement kind of thing where somebody was living.
They found graffiti on one of these that said, The killer was here.
Bye bye, fools. That is so lame. And it had the date written 77-6-17.
That's terrifying. Now, what's weird is that was a few days after the murders, so, like, whoa.
And then on top of that, it's written strange.
Okay. Like the year is written first. which is like a European way of writing that.
Either European, it was the first thing I thought of, Or Spanish, right?
Well, it's European or it's also military.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's like a military thing.
So that's an interest because that's just. sure, it can be somebody who just writes it that way, but it is a different, like, because, like, It's not your first instinct to write it that way.
Americans usually write it month, day, year.
Which like everybody else is like, why do you do that?
And so it's just a strange thing that could point to. maybe like some kind of piece of evidence to somebody, but I'm not really sure.
But also like sometimes I feel like older people are like, On the 8th of June.
Yeah. So you never know. But Jean Leroy Hart at the time was only in his 30s.
Yeah. So it's not like he was like some elder.
Was he in the military at some point? Did you say that already?
He was not in the military that I knew of.
And is he European? He is not. He is Cherokee Native American.
Okay. And what we're going to see... sure it looks great right now but there are a few things that are like I don't know if he was just, because again, he evaded Sheriff Weaver.
He escaped from his jail. you're going to tell me about the evidence.
So what we're going to do now is we're going to... Not pause.
Nope, we're not. No, no. We're gonna stop for part two.
No! Because keep in mind, it all sounds great right now.
All right. When we end this, you got to hit me up.
Gene LaRoy Hart is the guy. Not real sure he is.
I don't know. I mean, that's pretty... It's pretty condemning.
It sounds pretty damning, but it's... But you might question.
I don't think condemning is really a verb, but...
Yeah, but you know, whatever. Locust is not a flower either, but we're going to go with it.
I live in my world. I don't know where you live.
It's Ash's world. We're just living in it.
You're all just living in it. So, yeah, so...
Part two, we'll go over the whole thing with Jean Leroy Hart when they look further into it. they start looking into things like, you know, something pops up.
Remember they found sperm in... on two of these girls, which told them that they were raped.
It doesn't match his, huh? Well, they couldn't figure that out, but they did find out that he had a vasectomy at one point, which should not produce sperm.
But sometimes mistakes happen. well we'll see there is a lot that has to do with it so fuck you So we'll go through it.
All right, we'll end this right now. You can find us on Instagram at?
Morbid Podcast. Hit us up on Twitter. A Morbid Podcast.
Send us a Gmail. morbidpodcast.gmail.com hope you keep listening we hope you keep it weird But that's the word that when we end this, I need Elena to tell me everything that she knows right now.
Bye. Bye. Oh my God, I need you. Thank you.
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The town of Agde in France is famous for sun, sand, sea and sex.
But lately, life on the coast has taken a strange turn.
The town's mayor, a respected pillar of the community, has been arrested for corruption.
His wife claims he's been bewitched by a beautiful clairvoyant.
Then there's the mysterious phone calls that local people have been getting.
I am the Archangel Michael. The whole town has been thrown into chaos.
As the mayor is unable to carry out his duties I would like to address you all Legal proceedings have been initiated Join me, Anna Richardson, and journalist Leo Schick for The Mystic and the Mayor as we investigate a story of power, corruption,
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