Hey weirdos, it's Ash here, ready to share a little secret.
Have you heard of Wondery Plus? With ad free episodes and one week early access, it's like having an all access pass to our lighthearted nightmare.
So come join us on the dark side and try Wondery Plus today.
You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
You're listening to a morbid network podcast.
Listening on Audible helps your imagination soar.
Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, any genre you love, You can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities and new ways of thinking.
Listening can lead to positive changes in your mood, your habits, and ultimately your overall well-being.
Audible has an incredible selection of over 1 million audiobooks, podcasts, and Audible Originals all in one easy app.
Find the genres you love and discover new ones.
Explore bestsellers like my sister's title. new releases, plus thousands of included audiobooks, podcasts, and originals that members can listen to all they want with more added all the time.
I have been listening to the Martha's Vineyard Beach and Book Club, which actually Elena recommended to me.
She did not listen to it, but she said, girl, this title sounds so you.
And let me tell you, it did. I've been listening to it while I walk and I am absolutely loving it.
I love all the different narrators. I love Audible.
There's more to imagine when you listen.
Sign up for a free 30-day Audible trial and your first audiobook is free. visit audible.com slash morbid.
You know what's even more stressful than a packed calendar?
Realizing you're out of coffee right before a meeting.
That actually happened to me the other day. and it's exactly why I stocked up during the Thrive Markets back to school sale.
Even if you're not going back to school, I'm not, it's the perfect time to reset.
Thrive makes it easy to shop for high quality pantry staple snacks, vitamins, even skin care. without the errands or the ingredient label deep dives. with Aloha Protein Bar, Simple Mills crackers, and my favorite poppy drinks.
I love them so much. Everything is delivered super duper fast, and I saved up to 25% on all of that.
Their filters make shopping by diet or lifestyle a breeze, and their healthy swap tool actually helped me upgrade my usual buys with zero label stress.
I love the lesser evil popcorn. I get my chomp sticks from there.
I love Thrive and you will too. Now's the best time to try Thrive Market.
You'll get up to 25% off select items new members get 30 off their first order plus a free gift who doesn't love that Go to thrivemarket.com slash morbid to start saving.
The sale ends 831. Don't miss it. Hey weirdos, I'm Elena.
And I'm Ash. And we just discovered our soundboard.
Guys, we have had. It's morbid. Oh, yeah.
And it's morbid. Oh! Guys, we have had this like... Roadcaster.
Yeah, it's a roadcaster. We've had it for a while now.
Yeah. And we knew, I knew those little buttons could be sounds, but I thought you had to put them on there.
I did too. And they're pretty colors and I like them.
I'm pink. My little sound effect is pink, which makes a lot of sense.
We just went through and we were like, What the fuck?
So guys, there's even and we're not going to bombard you with them.
No, of course not. I would love to, but we're not going to.
But we found this one. So we might be bombarding you with that one.
That one has to be used, I feel. Yeah, that one.
We're all agreeing. And then like every now and then, can we do like a clapping thing?
Like I had a good idea. That wasn't it. Everyone's so excited about my idea.
And you know what? I really wish, I wish during the BTK series we had the womp womp.
Right? Like, what a missed opportunity. I mean, like, go back and add that in.
Honestly, I should just edit it in. It's necessary.
There was no water in the house. i love you know i used to have this teacher in sixth grade or seventh grade doesn't matter but he was like a dick and whenever we would laugh at something stupid because like we would laugh at stupid shit all the time, he would write on the board, small things amuse small minds.
And boy was he right. Because honey. That's hilarious.
It's so much fun. I love it. oh but we just we had to let you in on that because we're like we got to tell everybody and you're our everybody So everyone, everybody, you got to hear this.
It's hilarious. Those little things for our intro were perfect for each other.
I think they were perfect. We won't, trust me, we're not going to like overdo this.
No, it's fine. Because I know some people are like, oh shit, is this going to be a thing now?
It won't, I promise. We just wanted to tell you about it because it's fun.
But every now and then, because that is fun.
Every now and then I'm going to throw one of those in just because it's here and it's fun.
And we can put like that sparkly one at like really inopportune times. to be like hilarious oh it's that it's so good and then he was sentenced to life in prison I think that works really well that's so funny I think it works really well Okay, so we'll move on from it.
We digress. Glad we could have that moment with all of you.
If you're just joining us for the first time ever, welcome.
We've never used sound effects before, so hello.
Glad you could join us on this one. So I think we don't have like a ton of, because this is technically our like mini podcast.
Yeah, even though we don't do those anymore.
We don't do them, but it's like still kind of many.
I do have one little correction that I told you about before this and I saw it, embarrassed when we did.
I did Dorothy Stratton last week. So And I was like, oh, yeah, and she's buried in the same cemetery as Marilyn Monroe.
And you were like, Hollywood forever? And I was like, yeah.
Yeah. We were both wrong. Which is insane.
Yeah, because Marilyn and Dorothy are both buried at Pierce Brothers Westwood Village Memorial Park. and mortuary which i i feel like it's like one of those things that you have believed for so long yeah they were in hollywood forever that i was like no Because I always thought that Marilyn was in Hollywood forever.
Well, this is what makes it even worse. I have visited Marilyn Monroe's grave, but not at Hollywood Forever.
Like, touched it. Like I was there. Yeah.
And I thought I was in Hollywood Forever Cemetery, but I was not.
And you were wrong. So that's shocking to me.
I'm like, wow, look at that. I've been saying forever, oh, I've been there.
I haven't been there. Oh, such a bummer.
I've been to that other one. Yeah. But Maryland's there.
And Dorothy. So there you go. And Dorothy.
So there you go. That's great. Yeah. So we just wanted to correct that because I think someone pointed it out and we were like, what?
No. And then Ash looked it up and we were like, shit.
So thank you for that. We appreciate it.
And I think. Yeah, I think today's episode is... This one's kind of crazy, because I think it's one that a lot of people... can somewhat relate to on some level.
Oh? If you've ever been in a relationship with the wrong person, particularly the wrong guy.
Check. If you've ever had... your anger at this guy misdirected towards a girl.
Which I feel like most of... I think it's because you haven't had...
I never had a serious long-term relationship with a dude.
So I think it's like... I think people who have can understand that sometimes when you get in this... toxic relationship with a dude yeah and there's another girl involved sometimes your anger that should be at this guy mm-hmm gets misdirected at the girl because it's just, we all know.
A lot of us have been there. I've been there.
Yeah. I will fully admit that. and you look back later and you're like, well, shit, I should have been mad at him.
We both should have been mad at him, but we were mad at each other instead.
This is one of those scenarios. It's like, till as old as time.
It is. Such a tale as old as time. And again, since we've all been there, like reading this, I was like, oh, guys.
And it just, this one ends really badly.
Yeah. Obviously, because it's on the show.
Because here we are. Because hello, we're called Morbid.
But reading this case, I was like, the whole time I was like, guys, You can do better.
Just leave. Just leave. Like both of you, just tell him to fuck off and leave.
But they didn't. Oh no. So it's unfortunate, and it has a very unfortunate ending.
This is the case of Rachel Wade and Sarah Ludeman.
All right. Sarah Ludeman is the victim in this case.
Okay, that's weird because my case for later involves a Sarah as well and she's the victim in my case.
So it's the week of Sarahs. Sarahs. And there was a lot of Sarahs in the witch trials and stuff, too.
Yeah, Sarahs get a bad rap. They do. Sorry, Sarahs out there.
I know. That's rough. This is a love triangle, as I... kind of set up a little bit.
Love it. This love triangle was between Rachel Wade, Josh Camacho, who we don't care about because he sucks.
Okay. And Sarah Ludeman. This is like very much about the, this takes place in 2009.
So it's very much in, is it the same year?
Did you just see my face? My kiss also is in 2009.
Oh my god, we didn't even know. Because we don't tell each other.
No, we don't. That's insane. That is crazy.
Look at us. We're on the same wavelength.
So this is right smack dab in the internet age, the MySpace age. where you don't have to talk to someone face to face.
You can just sit there and have a huge knockdown drag out fight over MySpace and Nobody is ever really having to do anything.
And that like orange comment section. Of course.
Of course. Of course. And this is the thing.
And then it began the whole thing with people posting photos to make other people angry.
And, you know, you find out your boyfriend's cheating on you because the girl posts a photo.
And it's like, oh, no. A thirst trap. Exactly.
And again, we can all relate. I think everybody who was part of that age is sitting there going, yep, yep, yep.
This involves all of that. It takes place in Pinellas Park, Florida.
So we're going to talk about Rachel Wade first.
She was born February 27th, 1990. So at the time of this whole thing, she was 19 when this all went down.
Okay. Her parents are Barry and Janet Wade.
Her dad was a truck driver. Her mom was a special ed teacher.
Oh. She was beautiful. She's blonde, like tiny. like very like bombshell-ish like she just has that look of it like you look at her and you're like wow okay Like you're like, hate you.
Yeah. Hate you. But like, get it, girl. Yeah.
And. you know, guys were all about her.
She was very, very popular, but she was also kind of like a bad girl.
So she had the whole thing going for her.
Bad Girls Club. As a child, everyone described her as, like, super sweet. goofy.
She loved Disney. She wanted to be a princess.
She was the typical, you know, just like good little child.
You know, later she became a good student.
She was very active in extracurricular activities.
Everything was going swimmingly. Seems like everything was just going to keep going well.
Yeah, that's her. All right. See? That is such a MySpace photo.
We got duck lips. Yep. And we have an arm holding the hair on the other side of the head.
You know how when you would take your hair and you would comb it through your hair halfway and then flip it to the other side and hold it?
And pull the arm back. Like I'm so ravaged right now.
Yes. And then she's making that duck lip fish.
Yes. Yeah. That's her. And that's her in a nutshell, basically.
That's who she is as a human being. We also have top and bottom eyeliner.
Oh, yeah. Of course you do. What a time.
Oh, I loved a bottom eyeliner. Me too. But I look back now and I'm like, oh.
And I have like, yeah, no. Yeah, no, it's no good.
No. So again, later, she was a good student.
Everything's going well. It's all looking great.
Then she turned 15. Oh, and apparently that's the magic age where she was just like, fuck the world let me tell you it is and for you it was as well so You know what?
This all checks out. Yeah. 15. She hit the rebellious stage.
Oh, my God. Yes, girl. Same. And she hit...
She hit it hard. Same. She hit it like a Mack truck hits a wall.
She hit this thing. All right. She and her parents started butting heads over every single thing.
She was close to them before. Now she's fighting with them about everything.
She dropped out of high school. Okay. She started running away...
She was running away multiple times, like something like 14 times or something.
Jesus. And she was hanging out with a tough crowd, always with older boys.
Is this sounding familiar? Just saying. No.
Much to her parents' chagrin. I love that.
They were not psyched about this. Chagrin.
The town of Agde in France is famous for sun, sand, sea and sex.
But lately, life on the coast has taken a strange turn.
The town's mayor, a respected pillar of the community, has been arrested for corruption.
His wife claims he's been bewitched by a beautiful clairvoyant.
Then there's the mysterious phone calls that local people have been getting.
I am the Archangel Michael. The whole town has been thrown into chaos.
Mr Mayor. As the mayor is unable to carry out his duties, I would like to address you all.
Legal proceedings have been initiated. Join me, Anna Richardson, and journalist Leo Schick for The Mystic and the Mayor as we investigate a story of power, corruption, And magic.
Binge all episodes of The Mystic and the Mayor exclusively and ad-free right now on Wondery+.
Start your free trial in Apple Podcasts Spotify or the Wondery app.
And in fact, the same year that she turned 15, she was caught in a car with a 19-year-old man.
Because that's a man. That's a man. She's a child.
That's a man. Whose man says this? He was arrested and he was charged with a felony sex crime.
Oh. And she was 15 years old. Yikes. No good.
No. Not good. No bueno. So this was a bit of a pattern that began with her too.
Okay. She really craved attention from men.
Okay. And I think it seems to me like she... is one of those people who is a beautiful person naturally.
She has that all going for her. She was gifted very much with that.
I think you get told that over and over and over and over again.
Because I'm sure her parents were telling her, you're beautiful.
I'm sure people were telling her that. And family. it starts to become all that you think you're worth.
Your main source. Your worth lies in how you look.
Yep. That's why, and I'm not trying to be like, this is how to raise your kids.
I'm just telling you this is what I always try to do with my girls.
Sure, I tell them they're beautiful because they are.
And I want them to be confident and know that they're these beautiful little creatures.
Absolutely. But... But that's not their only always follow it up with.
And you're so smart. and you're so funny, and you're so creative, and you do this, just try to follow it up with stuff, especially with little girls.
Do you know where I learned that? Where?
Jessica Simpson's book. Jessica Simpson has a daughter named Birdie, and I think that's like the cutest little name ever.
And she said that she learned not to tell her like, I think she had a talent show or something.
And she was like, you looked like you were having so much fun up there.
Instead of saying, like, you look beautiful up there.
Because it's like... Place the importance elsewhere as well.
So it's like, of course, because it just and to me, it feels like when when it becomes a thing where they're craving attention from men like that and they're relishing in that attention right they're needing that attention because that's what they think they're worth exactly they're not putting it somewhere else which is a bummer I totally get that.
And it's something that's very easy to do as a parent, like to do the other way by accident because...
I constantly want to tell my kids, like, you are the most gorgeous creatures that have ever walked the face of the planet.
Yeah, you made them. Of course they're beautiful.
So it's, like, it's so easy to do that. Right.
But just throw, like... Some other... You're so smart and you're so funny and you're this and you're that.
Yeah, we all love a little... But... Unfortunately for Rachel, she was, you know, she really liked having boys chase her.
She liked boys fighting for her attention.
She needed them to be interested in her all the time.
It was where she placed everything. All right.
It was her main source of happiness and fulfillment.
That's not good. That's very sad. So by the time she was 16 or 17, she had been detained by the police several times and Oh.
Some of these times for assaulting her parents when they were in fights.
What? Yeah, so she was really going down the tubes.
Yeah, seriously. The same year, 16 or 17 years old, she told them that she was moving out and moving in with a boyfriend.
That's hilarious, I would have said. Well, and at this point, they were like, we'll pack for you, princess.
Get the fuck out. So they were just like, bye.
Good. Good luck, Rach. You can't assault us anymore.
And let me tell you, Rach didn't do anything great with her life.
So we'll just say that. Yeah, I saw the first pictures and then I saw some later and I was like, I guess it doesn't go well for her.
Did you get a mug shot in there? Because it's not going awesome.
I actually did it. Yeah, there's one in there.
So that boyfriend didn't last. weird crazy right no when you're 17 no yeah so nuts that it's 16 years old it didn't last for anybody who it did last good for you man but I mean, it does sometimes.
Also, she's a chaotic human, so it's just not going to work.
This is very different. These two fought constantly because they were... children, essentially.
He later said one fight ended where she held a knife to his throat and He dared her to use it and she just dropped it and ran away crying.
But we'll see later that that's like... Kind of an indication of things to come.
Why would you ever dare somebody holding a... a knife to your neck to do it.
Because he obviously thought she was bluffing.
But imagine if she wasn't. honestly with her right she probably wouldn't yikes so they ended up breaking up in 2008
That goes without saying. Shocker. And during this time in 2008, she became reconnected with a boy that she actually grew up with. okay named josh camacho yes uh she had known him her whole life it's not like they hung out all the time but they were like They just suddenly reconnected and all of a sudden they were like, ooh.
Like we have a lot in common. What up? You're hot, you're hot.
Yeah, they were into it all of a sudden.
So before she becomes like fully reconnected with him, she kind of like saw him out and they started talking a little.
She decided, she was like, you know what?
I'm going to try to turn this around. Okay.
So she got her GED. Okay. Oh, good job, girl.
Which good for her. She got a job as a waitress at Applebee's.
Awesome. And she got her own apartment. Wow, okay.
She was like, I'm going to keep this job.
I'm going to be independent because she was very independent.
Okay. And she was like, I'm going to do this.
And then she starts talking to Josh. And it slowly is slipping down and down and down.
So Josh just drags her down, which we're going to see Josh drags everything around him down.
So that's just what he does. So that's Rachel, and that's how she became connected with Josh.
Okay. Let's talk about the other part of this triangle, Sarah Ludeman.
Okay. Sarah Ludeman was born December 7th, 1990.
My parents were Charles and Gay. They're a cab driver and a nurse, respectively.
She was super daddy's girl. Okay. Like very, she was her dad's best friend.
They were like, he describes her as like his partner.
Yeah. like his like little sidekick. They were just bros.
Wow, what's that like? Which I love. No, that's so sad.
But and when you find like when you think later, you're just like, that breaks my heart.
No, yeah, that's awful. Because also, she was an only child.
She didn't have any siblings. She was teased a lot growing up.
Basically, she's the exact opposite of Rachel.
Okay. She did not grow up being this blonde bombshell that was just naturally like... had it right she had dark hair she was what bothered me is every single thing i read about this was like really emphasized how Rachel is this petite girl.
Of course. And that Sarah is bigger. She's also not big at all.
She's just a normal sized person. And Rachel just happens to be petite.
Right, exactly. Which is fine if you want to describe it as Rachel's petite.
And then there's Sarah, who is like very normal.
Like, average. Normal's a weird thing to say, but, like, I just feel, too, it's weird that they focus so hard on how...
Sarah's so much bigger and Rachel's so much smaller.
Because she's not big. I'm looking at a picture of her right now and she is a very regular sized girl.
No, she's definitely not big. But it was, I think they focus on it maybe because as we'll see later, I think the insults that start getting thrown around between the two of them focus a lot on how the stories told are fat a lot it's just one of those insults But and I think it's also they get in fights.
So it's like really trying to hammer in that Rachel's this tiny little thing and Sarah's like this monster. monster like it's how they put it and you know it's just not true And it just bothered me.
I'm like, stop focusing on this. Yeah, that's annoying.
She did get teased a lot growing up because her weight would fluctuate a little bit.
And we all, you know, like the chubby stage when you're little.
Kids can be dicks. Yeah. But she did, you know, when she got into high school, she was very well liked.
Everybody, she was very nice. Yeah. She loved animals.
I guess she was like very kind, very empathetic, like just one of those people who should work with animals.
And she desperately wanted to be a vet when she grew up.
OK. So she worked hard. She got all A's, like all A's.
She was like, I'm getting my grades, I'm going to vet school.
She specifically attended Tarpon Springs High because they had a veterinary program.
That would, like, help her get in. So she never had a boyfriend.
Mm-hmm. She just wasn't interested in dating.
Mm-hmm. Because again, she was really focused on her life.
And her parents said she was very nurturing, just kind, loving, goofy, sweet.
Everything you would want a daughter to be.
Basically exactly what a vet should be, to be honest.
I have all those qualities. So once, one night in the summer, she went to Chick-fil-A with her best friend.
Yes! And as they sat in the dining area, one of the cooks in the back was coming out for his break and he looked at her and he smiled and he gave her a little wink.
And then he said, my name is Josh. And that boy was Josh Camacho.
I knew it. Sarah immediately. was like, holy shit, because it's not like she was looking for guys' attention.
So I don't think she would even notice if guys were paying attention to her, but it just wasn't on her radar.
But he did it in such like a big fashion and like this like different way.
Like he just came out and like gave her the wink and everything that she was like, oh you're gonna notice that immediately was like oh shit she's like full swoonage and again she's never had a boyfriend She's like, you know, it makes me sad because it's like...
When you're younger, like anything like that is so exciting.
Oh, it feels so exciting. All these fucking movies where shit like that happens and then it's happening to you.
Yeah. And you're like, see, he's winked at me and now it's going to be this love story.
Right. So immediately puppy love. They started talking.
And they immediately exchanged numbers, texting, flirting together all summer.
Aww. Uh, then fall came. Oh, this is gonna fuck me up.
And he... He stopped. All of her friends said he would not acknowledge her or give her affection in public.
He would only do it in private. So that's horrible.
And she has never had a boyfriend before, and he's making her feel like this is normal.
Right. This is what a relationship is. So she doesn't understand what's going on.
I think she's not happy with it, but she's like, she's kind of desperate for his attention at this point.
And she doesn't want to ruin it. Exactly.
He was an absolute dick. He controlled what she wore, where she went, who she talked to.
She was only allowed to wear pants. she couldn't wear shorts or skirts because he didn't want other men seeing her legs And her parents had heard of Josh, who had a big reputation as a bad boy and a playboy.
He loved the reputation, by the way. He loved being like the bad boy.
Of course. He had tattoos. He took those shirtless mirror pics.
So bad. Where he had, yeah, it's just yucky.
They hated this. Her parents, they were not psyched about it, but they were trying to, like, just go with it and trying to, like... So... they were even like you know what we want to get to know him like let's get to know him we're hearing things but maybe we should just get to know him for ourselves So they tried.
Good for them. And he was a dick to them.
He really didn't want anything to do with it.
That's good. He would like kind of talk to them, but he was a dick.
Mm hmm. And that's so hard. Like that's so hard when you're when you're trying to show your parents that like you like this boy.
Yeah, just an absolute. Like I can tell you that's happened to me.
That was every boy I ever brought home was a dick.
And you're just like, can't you be normal for like one second?
Just try it for three minutes, please. Just try it.
So they just didn't mesh. But Sarah's suddenly... changing uh-oh she's all of a sudden not really sure if she wants to be a vet anymore And she's worked so hard.
She's worked her whole life for it. And then she's like, you know what?
I'd like to transfer to Pinellas Park High School.
Because that's where he goes. That's where Josh goes.
Of course. They don't have a vet program.
No, girl. So suddenly her whole life was about Josh. her grades are slipping, she's starting to get a little mouthy, She's just, everything's changing.
Her father was referred to Josh as the rat.
Oh my goodness. That's what he would call her, which I was like, I respect that.
I love that so much. I respect that so hard.
That's something Papa slash your dad would do.
100%. Yes. 100%. And now... Rachel and Sarah knew of each other.
Now they were going to the same high school.
They ran in similar circles. Sure. But they were, like we said, polar opposites.
Literally the polar opposite of each other.
So they were acquainted, but they were not friends.
Now while Josh is talking to Sarah, he's dating Rachel.
Okay. But in his mind, and he'll say it later, oh, I was just sleeping with them.
What they thought was what they thought, but no.
What a douchebag. But neither one of them know of each other.
They don't know that the other one's going on.
So Josh himself, just to give a little more background on him, He already had a child and he was a deadbeat father to this child.
Oh, good. So he's definitely someone to be all in on. because he's really killing it.
Like the baby's mother was literally like he has literally never spoken to this child, never acknowledged it, nothing, never helped with this child, nothing.
That's shitty. Which, you're a shitbag. Yeah, 100%.
He and his brother were actually known for being this way and being assholes.
Like, they were just known for their reputation.
Okay. They would use girls for money and other things and always have more than one girl at a time.
This was just their thing. They were also incredibly possessive and abusive in relationships.
A friend of Josh's said any girl he was involved with ended up, quote, supporting him, buying him clothes. buying him shoes and paying his cell phone bill.
Oh, come on. Which is less like why ladies?
Why? Right. And when you see him, you're like, He ain't it.
I don't understand. I haven't even looked up a picture of him.
I don't understand. But then... And I say that because it's true.
You'll look at them and you'll be like, what?
Right. But these guys just, they can do it.
Well, because I was going to say, if I look back on some of the guys that I dated and I was like so upset over like so and infatuated with I could wring my own neck for the dudes that I like really went to bat for it's like are you fucking kidding me right now Okay, here I am on the record.
Sorry if you're listening, but your high school boyfriend, like your gorge.
And I was like, what the? I was. probably seven years old being like what the fuck is this bitch doing and he was He was a horrible, horrible boyfriend.
A horrible boyfriend. I was spilling the tea at seven.
So it's like... And again... I was a little younger than they were. you go to bat for these dudes because they convince you that it's worth it.
Right, exactly. And it sucks. Because then you look back and you're like, what?
Like, why did I do that? Come on. So both Rachel and Sarah's friends said they never understood the thing with Josh.
All of the friends are like, we didn't get it.
We don't know what they saw in him. I like can't see his face in this picture.
I just see his abs. So like I get. that I guess when you're a teenage girl but it's not it's nothing and they said they never got a good vibe from him They were all a little worried.
They knew his reputation, but neither one of these girls wanted to listen, of course.
Right. So of course he's playing both of them.
And it really worked out for him because Sarah was always labeled the good girl.
Yeah. And Rachel was the bad girl. Of course.
Sarah had an early curfew and early being like 12, which is like Not an early curfew.
No, that's not. But she had a curfew because she was living at home with her parents.
And they were like, yeah, you have to come home.
So it worked for him because she would go home for her curfew And then he'd just go stay at Rachel's apartment.
Exactly. So it really worked for him. So...
Early shift to late shift, basically, and neither one knew anything any the wiser.
Right. So he saw Sarah as the weaker and easier to mold of the two because she had never had a boyfriend again.
Mm-hmm. And she was the good girl. So he told her, again, what to wear, how to think, who to talk to.
And she just went with it. Now, I can't picture him doing that to Rachel.
Rachel, I don't think he did the same thing with Rachel.
I think he worked a different angle with her.
And I think he was just like, I'm the bad boy, you're the bad girl.
We're supposed to be together. And she just... fell under his spell okay because she really went to bat for him uh-oh Now, Sarah started even molding herself to him.
Like Ann Perkins from Parks and Rec, where she'll just mold to her boyfriend.
She was dressing like him, speaking like him, the whole thing.
And friends said she did like a complete 180.
They didn't even know her anymore. Then the fights between Sarah and Josh began.
Okay. Now, she was actually detained and questioned by police a few times for their public fights.
Oh, shit. Her fights with other girls on his behalf.
It was just getting really ugly. Josh punched her in the face once and admitted it.
And she didn't want to press charges. What?
Yep. He was physically assaulting her more and more.
She would never want to press the charges.
Punched her in the face. And admitted it.
What? Admitted it. And he also broke up with her several times and then would just lure her back.
Of course. He was a fucking monster. Yeah, he's horrible.
Now, at the same time, he's sleeping with and pretending to be with Rachel this whole time.
Right. Now, Rachel posted some photos of her with Josh out of nowhere.
Like, one day she was just like... here's the photos and just posted them on MySpace.
Right. I don't know what came over, why she decided this was the time she was going to do it.
I don't know if he had, in my mind, I'm like, did she do it because she was like, why aren't I allowed to post photos of us?
I'm just going to do it. Yeah. Or if he told her to do it.
Because I could see him being like, I want to see you two fight.
Yeah, probably. I could definitely see it.
So she posts the MySpace photos and Sarah sees this and is like, What the fuck?
Like, who the fuck is that? So she confronts him and he's basically like, yeah, I'm sleeping with her.
What? Whoops. I'd be like, cool, get the fuck out of my apartment.
She was pissed. But she was pissed at Rachel.
At the wrong person, of course. And it's like, no, get mad at him.
And I understand it's like one of those things.
But still. You don't learn it until later.
No, you don't. This is when Sarah started freely posting her photos with Josh and Rachel...
Did not take it well. No, because she thinks this guy is her boyfriend.
Of course. And she's changed her life for him.
Of course. So in a MySpace blog, because do you remember those?
I do. MySpace blogs. Yeah. Those are where the magic happens.
I was right at the end of Myspace. I was going to say, you weren't fully immersed in the Myspace situation.
Hoo boy, the MySpace blogs. That's where people would really air their shit.
And in hers on June 17th, 2008, Rachel wrote, When we first met, I was madly in love, but since then things have changed.
You called me names, you slept around. I deserve so much better.
Which I'm like, yes, you did. You did. Did, yes.
But then Sarah commented on that blog and wrote, found better.
Which I was like, oh shit. Sick burn. So they were able to somehow get each other's phone numbers.
I'm sure either they found it in Josh's phone.
Oh, yeah. Were able to find it out from other people or Josh just handed them out because he liked seeing this happen. yeah 100% because I wouldn't put it past that fucker no now they started texting and calling each other fighting like back and forth oh no of course over josh so the first voicemail that rachel left for sarah said, you're fucking with me when you fuck with Josh.
Seriously, I'm letting you know now you're either going to get fucked up or something of yours is stop being a bitch uh-oh which is like girl damn okay So that was the kind of things that Sarah was getting from Rachel.
And then Sarah... Would taunt Rachel. Okay.
So Sarah and her friends would go to Applebee's and sit in her section and then just harass the shit out of her.
Oh. It's kind of funny. They would literally spill shit on the ground for her to clean up.
This is like a movie. put her their foot out and make her like trip with shit like in lizzie mcguire when she gets her cafe job Exactly.
You're welcome. And I guess there was even I saw like an interview with one of their with Rachel's friend, I think it was.
And she was like, at the time, there was this song called Girl Fight, which I was like, does everybody remember this?
It's about to be a what? Girl Fight? Girl Fight?
Yeah. Well, they went to Applebee's and there was karaoke and her and her friends sang that song to Rachel.
So it's all like, this sounds a lot like the town I grew up in and like what girls would do in that town.
It's all like very... Just high school shit.
Yes. Like, it really is. It's all... I mean, they went to...
Because at a Taco Bell once, they went up to her car and silly stringed her.
Oh, yeah. Like stuff like that. So it was getting to the I'm sure it was it was pissing Rachel off that she was getting, you know, but Rachel was also coming right back.
They weren't, neither one of them was the aggressor.
They were both coming at each other. So they slashed each other's tires and shit.
Like it got crazy. Yeah. So Rachel, on August 26, 2008, left another voicemail.
And this one said, seriously? I told you to watch your fucking back and not to chill with him.
Now your ass is mine and I'm guaranteeing you I'm going to fucking murder you.
I'm letting you know that right now because you know what?
Josh might have played me, but bitch, I'm going to play your ass out too.
Watch. Oh, you know what they call that?
Yeah. Premeditation. Yeah, they sure do.
And I'm just going to quickly play you a little clip.
Oh, you have it? Of that voicemail so you can hear like the real...
The real, like, fury behind her voice. Because I think it's important to hear... the fury behind her voice i also just like need that yeah you do Please tell me, Sarah, why you would be a dumb enough to put a brand new picture of you and Josh at the beach.
Seriously, I told you to watch your f***ing back and not to f***ing chill with him.
Now you're out of his mind and I'm guaranteeing you I'm going to f*** you.
I'm letting you know that now, because you know what?
Josh might have played me, but bitch, I'm gonna play your ass out too.
Watch. You're a . That bitch, and I'm gonna f***ing kill you.
I swear all my life. Walk out your f***ing window when I get off work tonight, you dumbass.
Alrighty. That kind of just like really lays it all out.
That escalated so quickly. And also imagine getting a message like that.
Yeah. I would not watch out my window. I would.
Go to the police. That is, I've never received something like that.
But, like, how many times have you been like, oh my god, I'm gonna murder you.
But you don't leave it on a voicemail. No, no, no, and I'm not saying that, but I'm like... oh yeah and it's also you don't say i'm guaranteeing you i'm gonna murder you Yeah, I've never said that to anybody.
And being like, watch, I'm literally going to murder you.
She said, I swear on my life. Yeah, I swear on my life I'm going to murder you.
And then there's another voicemail that's from Rachel that says, I'm going to find you and I'm going to beat your ass.
He can get anything he wants from me. You still got your mommy and daddy's curfew, bitch.
Why do you run your fucking mouth? Anyway, are you that pathetic?
So keep talking shit, Sarah. I'm going to fucking teach you.
I'm telling you now. So you want to say that she's pathetic, but he punched you in the face and you didn't want to press charges.
Exactly. It's like... I just, and she keeps saying, she's making such tangible threats in these voicemails.
Such tangible threats, sitting there being like, I'm going to teach you.
She said, I guarantee I'm going to murder you.
On my life, I'm going to murder you. like girl that's not gonna bode well for you later also just don't say that to people So then there came the MySpace photos, more MySpace photos that really set Rachel apart. a flutter.
Sarah and Josh went to New York City. they posted photos yeah and i guess there was like photos but she got another voicemail That said, and I have this one too, and I'll play it for you because I think it's important to hear her like... The fury.
Yeah. But sometimes it's hard to hear. So it says, how do you like my, or no, excuse me.
Sarah wrote as the caption on here. How do you like my photos?
My man, not yours. Which is no good. So she got another voicemail from Rachel from this one.
And it has a similar vibe to it. All right.
So here it is. It's so funny how you talk and you wanna sit there and say that my man We were at Sarah's house.
Then tell me what he was wearing tonight, Sarah.
You're a dumb bitch for... For real, if you're lying, I'm gonna find you and I'm gonna beat your ass.
If you're not lying, I'm gonna find you and beat your ass, okay?
You play a f***ing game, you're a pathetic little bitch, and you're a little f***ing girl. you have that's going for you that josh wants you over me for i got a job have my own place Seriously?
He can get anything he wants from me. Not to mention that I look probably ten times better than you.
And you were on your mouth. You still got your mommy and daddy's curse. you bitch for god's sake what do you why do you run your mouth and why are you that pathetic Please do leave shit on your mind space because that's what we'll do.
It's just like you and him are. So keep talking shit, Sarah.
You don't know when to stop. You haven't learned your lesson yet, but I'm going to teach you it.
I'm telling you now. with me, Sarah. I'm telling you now, I'm going to show you psycho.
Because I'm going to teach you how to blow a blow.
Yeah. So in case you couldn't hear parts of that, she's basically saying, I look better than you.
You know, you still have your mommy and daddy's curfew.
What would he ever want from you? Like, I have my own place.
I have my own place, which to me, I'm like, so you're trying to convince yourself of your worth.
Because if you have to say that to somebody else, then you're convincing yourself.
The way she's speaking, too, I'm like, you definitely did not speak like that.
No, like, she's literally acting like she has, like... she's I mean like she runs shit like she's tough yeah and she's not tough right As we'll see, this girl is not tough.
Well, you're not supposed to judge a book by its cover, but I'm looking at her and I'm like, I would not be. scared by these messages.
And honestly you can look at her later in her police interrogation interview when she's wearing a little cardigan and crying her ass off.
Pretending that you're not tough. No. What she is tough, she's tough on MySpace.
She talks a big game. And she's tough through voicemail.
Right. But when it comes right down to it, she's not.
Also, doesn't it kind of sound like, I obviously don't think that she wrote it down, but it sounds like she's reading.
It really does. It's like a script. She's like, I'm going to fuck you up because I have...
I do more things than you, and I'm gonna fucking fuck you fucking up, fuck.
I have shelter. And you don't. I can offer him my kitchen.
I have my own bathroom. I have Hamburger Helper in these cabinets.
And it's like, bitch. And you listen to it, and it's just...
I want to be like, girl, he's cheating on you.
With her. Like, this is the main problem here.
The main problem is Josh, not Sarah. No.
No. And it's like, Sarah, the main problem is Josh, not Rachel.
Right. You two hate each other. That's fine.
You don't ever have to be friends. But like...
Fuck his world up. Don't fuck each other's up.
This is something, too, that could have just ended so differently and they could have been sitting here like we are right now, like, remembering, like, Oh God, do you remember that girl you hated?
Exactly. And be embarrassed about how you acted.
But it went somewhere... Totally, totally different.
So keep going. So April 14th, 2009 is when... it really just like they just really started going hard at each other.
Rachel was texting her and rubbing it in that she was with Josh.
She would text her. They'd throw a status up when they were with him.
It just became this whole thing thing and you know what the shittiest part about this all is he is sitting there enjoying the show he loved it of course he did and then he turned into a big old coward and tucked his tail between his legs when shit hit the fan shocking now And Sarah's a mess over this because she's really upset.
It's her first boyfriend. And what a hell of a way to start.
Yeah. And so she's been a mess. And that night on April 14th, 2009, She saw Rachel write a MySpace thing, like one of those MySpace like blurbs that was there.
Yeah. That said love in my boo. And she lost it.
So that night, that afternoon. There was text that Sarah sent to Josh.
Okay. She sent one at 1.06 p.m. that said, whatever, Josh, you get so mad at me for everything, but you don't give her.
But you don't give a shit when she puts something up or says something.
You always believe her. And then she wrote at 1 0 8 PM.
It's like, no matter what I do, she's always much better.
It's like, then why are you pining for his attention?
Like, you could get somebody else. so much better that actually cares about you so at 1 13 she sent another text because he's ignoring these Of course, because he's a fucking asshole.
And she wrote, all we fight about is her or something that has to do with her and it sucks.
I hate fighting with you. I love you so much but this shit hurts.
No response. So then, now that was at 1 o'clock in the afternoon at 6.36 p.m.
She writes him again because he's not writing.
She writes, you say you love me, but you don't have the decency to text me back.
Yeah. No response. No response. It's like that in and of itself should tell you.
But then, eight o'clock, two hours later, he just writes, bring the movies.
Are you fucking... And she... And she ran out the door to his house.
No. No. And you know what? It's because we can listen to this and we can be like, what the fuck, Sarah?
We've all been in that. position from from heinz like now we can say what the fuck sarah we've all fucking done that shit.
Like younger us have all fucking done that shit.
I did stupid. I let so many things go with my ex.
Oh, yeah. He full on had another girlfriend for like upwards of a year.
Yes. Found it out. I took him back. Right.
And it's like and I got like into it with the girl.
Like I've done this. That's why this case I was like.
I feel for this whole situation scenario for sure because every and I feel like so many people can it will resonate with so many people because we've all been stupid teenagers.
And it's so true because you don't get it.
You can sit there and say like, oh my God, like why would you do that?
But we've all, like I said, been there. And now we can say no.
No, it's so clear now. So clear as an adult.
It's when you're in a healthy relationship that you're like, exactly what the fuck was I doing?
I once dated a guy that told me, I like showed him like an old picture of myself and he was like, wow, you used to be a lot thinner.
And I continued to date him. My ass continued to date him.
My God. My thick ass continued dating him.
And then I was like, you know what? Goodbye.
And now you're like, what the fuck? And now I'm like Ashley Nicole.
How dare you? I watched my ex. have a or no excuse me listen to my ex at the bottom of the stairs he said he was going to the bathroom he went upstairs yes had a full-on conversation with his other girlfriend, which I heard the entire... thing.
And he told you it was like some dude. And then he told me he was listening to a voicemail.
Oh my god. And I believed him. And you were like, but why?
But in my heart of hearts, I knew it. Like, I knew it at the time.
I was like, you just talked to another girl. right in front of me.
Yes. Like I knew it. It happens. And also that was the LAPD officer, by the way.
Just that's why I shit on the LAPD. I was going to say, if you wonder why we shit on the LAPD a lot.
Because, you know, they suck. Just saying, but I'm just saying this to point out the fact that Sarah, of course, we can look at this and go, Sarah, come on.
Sarah was doing what every teenager does. when they feel like they love someone and you feel wrapped up.
Because they're both like 17, 18 years old.
They're like, you know, at this point, they're like 18, 19.
So it's like, but you're still in that like...
No, you absolutely are. And this kind of guy can wrap you up and really make you feel like he's worth fighting for.
And it's just so tragic now. Yes. It just sucks.
This case sucks to look at afterwards. Yeah.
Because it's so avoidable. Even Rachel herself. i've seen interviews with her now and she's like fuck of course and she'll say it right oh right like i should have just talked to sarah yeah like i should have done and it's like yeah you should have it's too late now yeah like i'm not giving her anything because like fuck her but yeah we're gonna see So she runs out to be with him after not talking back.
She's pouring her heart out to him. And he's giving no response.
And the first thing he says is, bring the movies.
And she goes running. Also, remember bringing movies places?
Yes, right? So he had told Rachel he couldn't see her that night because he was babysitting for his sister.
I bet he was with Sarah. He was because he told her to bring the movies.
Yeah. So you're like, I bet he was. So according to Rachel, she was walking her dog that night and Sarah drove by her on the way to Josh's house and yelled, something like stay away from my man or something of that sort okay and rachel said she got scared Which, I don't know if you just listened to those voicemails.
Yeah. I'm going to go ahead and say that girl wasn't scared.
No. I don't think she was scared. And she said to, what's her face?
She was like, or I didn't mean to say what's her face.
She said to... I keep getting them confused.
Yeah. Sarah. Sarah. No. Rachel said to Sarah.
She was like. you're acting like you're this tough ass bitch.
And it's like, but so are you. and then you're gonna say you got scared that you got scared of her yelling like stay away from my man or something that's all you've been yelling at each other you literally told her you're gonna murder her like you told her that and you're afraid of her yeah it doesn't make any sense So she said she ran inside and she grabbed a steak knife and she put it in her purse for protection.
She then called her ex-boyfriend, Javier Laboy, and asked if she could go to his house because she said she was scared to stay alone.
Okay. So he was like, sure. Sounds like a weird story.
So around 11 p.m., she's driving there and she drove past Josh's sister's house.
And Sarah's car was there. So she's pissed.
She's really mad. She's like, oh, so you are babysitting, but with Sarah.
So Josh, his sister, his sister's friend and Sarah all saw Rachel drive past the house multiple times over and over again.
She kept going around. Then she texted Josh.
She said, now I know why you're not talking to me because you got her.
So Josh texted back, that's right, I don't like you no more.
Why are you down this street? Go home. So Rachel replied with, no, I'll wait for her to go home.
Which is no good. Uh-uh. So meanwhile, his whole plan for this was he was like, go home, get the fuck out of here.
He was going to hang with Sarah till curfew and then just go over Rachel's.
Yeah, that was his plan for the night. Yes, I believe that.
So Rachel's acting insane right now because she's driving around and around and around, like keeps going by.
She's texting him. She's going crazy. because she's snapping again we've all snapped at this point with this kind of situation did you ever do a drive-by Of course, everybody has.
And she kept driving around and around. So Sarah waited to leave until they thought she had finally gone away. and she called her parents and told them she was going to be a little late for curfew.
And her parents were like, well, you need to get home.
So it was close to midnight, but it was before midnight. that she was leaving and Josh's sister, whose name was Janet, and her friend asked if she could bring them to McDonald's.
And she was like, sure. So on the way to McDonald's, Sarah got a call from Rachel.
Uh-oh, and she put it on speaker with Janet and the friend in the car.
Rachel was screaming, saying she was going to kill Sarah and like several other things.
She also heard, apparently she said on that call, I'm going to stab you and your Mexican boyfriend.
Oh. Which is like, whoa. Okay. Is she saying that about Josh?
Yeah. Like she's saying, I'm going to stab you both.
Like she, that's what the friend said. They heard.
Okay. I'm going to stab you and her and him.
So, so that's no good. So she also heard from her, so she hangs up the phone.
She's like, whatever. So then she hears from her friend Ashley, Sarah does, and Ashley tells her that Rachel was standing outside at Javier's house in his driveway And she was like, just telling you that's where she is.
Okay. So Sarah was like, I'm going to go there.
And I'm going to tell her, like, fuck off.
Don't go to a place where the person who just said they're going to stab you is.
So she goes there. And she, with the two, with the sister, Josh's sister and her friend in the car.
Now I remember this case. She pulls up and she sees Rachel leaning against the car, chatting with two other dudes.
So Sarah slams on the brake. and jumps out of her car.
And the two other girls jump out as well.
Rachel grabs her knife that she had with her out of her purse.
And they just charge at each other. Oh, no.
And at first it looks like it's like just like, you know, punching and pulling and like, brr, brr, brr.
And it's like quick. Quick. Yeah. Very quick, like, I'm just like nuts.
People in the driveway and right next to them said they saw Rachel make two stabbing motions. and Sarah ended up stabbed in the shoulder and her chest.
Sarah immediately just like unlocked, stumbled backwards towards her car and called someone.
Uh-huh. Who did she call? Josh. Not 911?
Not her friend, not her parents. She called Josh and he answered and she said, It hurts.
And then drop the phone. Oh, no. That's the only thing she could say.
Then she literally fell out of her car and onto the pavement.
Javier... who is Rachel's ex-boyfriend, pulled his shirt off, like just ripped his shirt off and tried to use it as like a tourniquet to stop the bleeding.
So he and then somebody, I think it was Janet, Josh's sister or her friend.
I can't remember which one. Yeah. It's like different everywhere you look.
That's fine. Is the one who called 911. Sure.
And this is the 911 call. Rachel! Okay, where on the body is the patient?
So what she's saying there is, fucking Rachel, she fucking stabbed her.
And the dispatcher says, okay, where on the body is the patient stabbed?
And she says she's been stabbed in the chest.
She's just trying to breathe. Now during this, Rachel is having a full realization about what she just did and is in a state of like absolute panic and shame.
Yeah. guilt right good no oh she's not doing any of that what is she doing she's doing none of that No, she calmly, according to all witnesses there and the officers who later came on Because now there's like eight people there.
Walked back to Javier's porch very calmly.
But before she got there, she realized she was holding the weapon she just used to violently stab another woman in her hands.
So she threw it over the side roof into the neighbor's yard.
Then she just sat on the porch on a bench and said, I'm done.
According to witnesses. What? And just chilled there.
She's a full-blown sociopath. Yep, I did it.
Now, Rachel got a call from Josh right away.
And he wanted to know where she was. He was like, what is going on?
Like, what's happening? Because I just got a call from Sarah that said it hurts.
Like, what? And she said, I'm at Javier's house.
And that's it. Yeah, that's all you need to know.
That's blood. on josh's hands exactly and he immediately knew something bad happened obviously So he drove to Sarah's house and told her parents that Sarah got in a fight.
And he told them where she was. Yeah. So Sarah's parents went straight to the scene, but the police had already arrived and held them back.
And her dad later said, like, I knew she was dead.
Oh, my goodness. Now Josh and Sarah's parents drove all together, the three of them, to the hospital to meet Sarah there.
Mm-hmm. Now, as they're walking in, Josh all of a sudden says, I'm not going in.
And they were like, you're not going in.
And he was like, I can't see her like that.
So her father literally was like, you fucking asshole.
You're the reason she's in there. I would hold him in by his ankles.
And he was like, it's because of you that she's like that.
And Josh was like, no, I'm not going in.
I'd be like, wow, you really proved that you're a piece of shit through and through.
And when they came out of the waiting room, out to the waiting room later, he was just gone.
Oh, I believe that. He just peaced. He just dipped.
So police detective Mike Lynch spoke with Rachel at the scene, and he said she was just sitting on the porch, hadn't moved.
Nothing. She was just smoking a cigarette.
Okay. I was waiting for you to tell me that she was smoking a cigarette.
Of course she was. Because I pictured her just like sparking one up. she walked up there.
She didn't say anything about the knife.
She just was like, yeah. Like shit happens.
And then she asked one of the other officers for a cigarette.
Like, that's how chill she was. Are you kidding me?
During her police interview, she said Sarah, Janet, and Janet's friend came rushing at her altogether and she said Sarah somehow managed to land like three punches on her before she even began to try to defend herself.
She's such a hapless victim. She then said that she had only brought the knife to scare her.
She remembered grabbing it out of her purse but didn't intend to use it.
She said she didn't even know where she had stabbed Sarah.
She just remembers suddenly seeing Sarah run away to her car.
Okay. So she was like, I didn't do anything.
I don't know. I don't believe that for a second.
She then said she never saw the stab wounds and basically was like, what?
Yeah, girl. You were on the phone like a week ago saying you were going to murder her.
So then she said after the ambulance left that Janet and her friend had attacked her.
She was like, after the ambulance took Sarah away, Janet and her friend attacked me. because you just killed someone stabbed her friend like are you real like you don't understand why that happened You want us to feel bad for you because people hit you after you stabbed someone?
After you murdered someone? Well, this whole time, she doesn't know that she killed someone.
Sarah, because so far no one's pronounced her dead.
So this whole time she's sitting bored. Like if you look at this interview, police interview, She's got her like elbow on the side of the chair and her head on her fist just sitting there like leaning like bored. not realize like super whatever the repercussions has no idea she finally admitted because they were like where's the fucking knife rachel And she was like, okay, well, I threw it.
And they were like, you threw it where? And she was like, I don't know, the neighbor's house.
And they're like, into the neighbor's yard?
And she's like, I don't know, in the neighbor's yard.
And it's like, okay. So then 2.29 a.m. Sarah was pronounced dead from stab wounds to the heart because that chest one had nicked her heart.
Oh my gosh. The stabbing was so aggressive and violent that the knife bent.
Wow. Now, back at the station, Rachel thinks Sarah is still alive.
She has no idea. stab somebody like that with a steak knife oh yeah like obviously that took a lot of force oh yeah Like, a lot of, and that's anger, and that is, like, that's a lot of shit.
You said she rushed at her, too. Oh, yeah, she did.
Now, this is what happened when they told her what had happened.
And this was close to 6 a.m. is when she found out.
A change of tune. And basically she went on and on and on.
And then they just suddenly were like, well, we have something to tell you.
Oh. Oh, my God. It's crazy how they tell her.
Here it is. So then, halfway through, they do this little number.
I just wanted them to finally leave me alone.
He's not going to follow you anymore. She's not going to follow you anymore because she's dead now.
He was literally like... own this like she's not gonna hurt you anymore rachel you poor poor victim because you fucking murdered her Oh my goodness.
That even just hit me for a loop. Right?
Threw me for a loop. Like when I saw that, when I heard that, I was like, oh, like, it's just like, she's not going to follow you anymore because she's dead now.
Because you fucking killed her. Which is obviously like you're talking about a real human being, but it's like she needs to be whiplashed with that information.
Absolutely. Even after this, you'll see, she does not take any of this seriously.
None of it. Wow. Even afterwards. So you can see, and immediately... you know the whole time she's sitting there talking she's like you know blaming it all on sarah it's all sarah she was the aggressor i was just trying to get away from It's all self-defense.
Poor me, poor me, poor me. And then all of a sudden they're like, well, you killed her.
She's dead. And all of a sudden she's like, ahhh!
And it's like, okay, so now you suddenly turn into this whimpering mess.
I was going to say, now you're a delicate flower.
Get the fuck out of here. So she was immediately arrested and immediately charged with second degree murder.
Wow. I'm surprised she didn't get first degree because of those messages.
I know. Maybe could have, but I think they were a couple of months before this, so I think it It factors heavily into the trial.
I would think so. So back at the station...
That whole thing is going on. She ends up getting 15 months in jail before trial.
And apparently she was very nonchalant about all this.
She was making plans for after her jail sentence.
She said she planned on marrying Javier, apparently.
I don't know if he's going to want to marry a murderer girl.
When it's like, I'm sorry, do you really think you're going to get 15 months and you're just going to serve?
You're gonna get time served and just get out of here?
You just took somebody's life. You literally murdered someone.
And she had no idea that when you violently murder someone in front of other people there are big consequences to that.
Yes. She was riding on this self-defense thing and she just kept saying it's Sarah's fault. sarah's fault sarah's fault that she died and it's and i'm just acted in self-defense Whoops.
Can you imagine still after realizing that you killed someone blaming them?
Oh yeah, and she thought this trial was going to be this quick little thing where they would wag their finger at her and say, Don't stab people again.
And then she'd just walk home and marry Javier.
So... June or July 20th, 2010 is when her trial began.
Her attorney, Jay, I think it's A. Bear, but it's spelled like Herbert.
I think it's a bear, though. It's fancy.
Wanted her to take a plea deal because they were like, there's a lot against you.
You're in a lot of trouble. I don't know about eight people saw you stab her and then you said I'm done after and smoked a cigarette and then we have all these voicemails of you literally telling her, I guarantee I will murder you.
Like, I swear on my life. And then there's also those witnesses that heard in the car, you say I'm going to stab you before you stabbed her.
So I think you should take a plea deal. Like, I think that's probably your best interest.
And she was like, nope, I want to tell my side of the story.
She didn't take the plea deal? Didn't take a plea deal.
So the prosecution. That's ballsy. Very dumb and very ballsy.
That's like Ted Bundy dumb. Yeah. You're like, what the fuck?
Different level. But the prosecution was led by Lisette Hanowitz, who was like a real badass. love it she brought up the knife being bent she was like she bent the fucking knife that's how hard she stabbed her so her claiming I had no idea that I even stabbed her.
Wrong. Shut the fuck up. and she said here's the history where rachel has stated numerous times in front of others and on audio tape that she was going to murder her right The defense used the Stand Your Ground Law, which was in Florida at the time. and said Sarah and also kept harping on the fact that Sarah was bigger than Rachel. oh my god so she was scared she's also she's not that much she's not she's not like they're like Calm down, everybody.
Like, for context clues, I think she's smaller than me and I'm not huge.
She's a very average human being. Yes. Like, come on.
Sarah's just tiny. I think it's just Rachel's small.
Yeah, Rachel's just tiny. I think Rachel is like my height or maybe a little taller than I am yeah she has a very similar build and they said she's like 110 pounds so she's just a small girl yeah but we don't need to focus on it, no.
They also brought up the times when, this is the defense, brought up the times when Sarah was aggressive with Rachel.
You know, the Applebee's stuff and the Taco Bell stuff, the stuff when she was being the aggressor.
But that's so like passive aggressive. Of course. gonna bring it up because it's the only thing they got right that's all they got Then they brought up the fact that Sarah went looking for Rachel at Javier's.
They were like, she's the one who showed up.
Javier said about Rachel after the stabbing, he said that she showed no emotion.
So the fact that she's like, I'm going to marry Javier, I'm like, he's scared of you.
He's like, I'm going to testify against you so that you can't marry me.
He said right after it happened, he said she had, quote, Such a blank look on her face, it didn't look like she was even there with us.
Like, that's how we... And witnesses there, including the two boys Rachel was speaking to in the driveway, said that Sarah didn't charge Rachel.
And that Rachel went up to Sarah's car first.
I believe that. So the two dudes, she was... conversing with are even like, no, no, that's not the truth.
So about the knife rachel because they were like why did you throw the knife if this is self-defense and you had no idea that you even stabbed her whoops oh my goodness why didn't you you say it right why did you throw the knife somewhere and get rid of the evidence right And she said, quote, I don't know what I don't know.
I don't even know. I don't know what happened.
And I didn't want anybody else to get a hold of it.
So if you don't know what happened, how did you know that somebody could get a hold of it?
So you didn't even know you stabbed Sarah, but you threw the evidence over the...
Okay, right. That doesn't make any sense.
So Josh took the stand. Wow, I'm surprised. as he showed up did they have to like sequester him right or no that's not the right word Did they subpoena him?
Subpoena, yes. So Josh took the sand. He said he was sleeping with a lot of girls.
And sure, they probably thought they were his girlfriends, but that was...
Wasn't his problem. Oh my God. The attorney asked him if he loved Sarah because they said it was pretty clear that she at least thought she loved you.
So did you love her? Don't tell me. And on the stand he said, I think I did.
Which I don't believe. I think he perjured himself there.
Also, you could have perjured yourself further if you're just going to perjure yourself in general and just say yes.
Because she's dead now. But no, we're just going to give a... I think I did.
I think so. And also, I mean... his nobody and his like he doesn't and no one around him think that he is at fault at all here No one does?
Well, everybody who is, like, all the girls, friends, and all the families there.
Everyone who's, like, his... his crew there are the ones that are like what was why was this his fault oh okay and it's like maybe because he like inflamed this whole thing the entire time Men are always innocent.
No, he's innocent. He didn't do anything wrong.
Women. It's women. And they actually did try very hard to get him charged with something in this.
They couldn't come up with anything that they could charge him with. and it's true i'm gonna legally they can't i don't think he deserves jail time Well, and also I think he does.
Do you? To be honest, because this never would have happened without him.
And I don't think he deserves like a full on prison sentence, but I think he deserves to be punished.
I can see why you think that. But there's no legal.
There's no legal. Right. Way to do it. Right.
So I will admit that like legally it doesn't make sense.
I don't think he ever thought this would happen.
I don't know. He's an abusive prick. I don't see him having any kind of...
I don't think he cares. I don't think he cares at all.
I don't think he gives a shit. And again, he inflamed this.
Yeah. So, I mean, he was hearing Rachel sitting there saying, I'm going to kill you.
You're not doing anything about it? Instead, you're encouraging this behavior?
Yeah. I know that actually is a very good point.
And I forgot that he punched Rachel. Yeah, he punched her in the face.
He's a piece of shit. And again, there's no legal way that he could be charged with anything.
So I'm not saying like. You know, that.
But he should be punished for something.
Yeah. But either way, he's not. So police sergeant Tina Trey, I think it's like Trey-y?
Sorry, Tina. You tried. She was there. Sergeant Tina was at the crime scene.
And on the stand, she was asked about Rachel's state during the whole chaotic crime scene situation because they kept going back to that, like, why was she so calm? and she said quote i noticed her calmness and lack of concern with what was going on and then she said she was the one who she asked for a cigarette So she was like, she asked me for a cigarette.
Javier said that Rachel was ready to fight that night.
It was standing in the street ready for Sarah when she pulled up.
Of course. I believe that. The big thing in the trial, obviously, was the voicemails left by Rachel.
For Sarah. Where she said, I'm going to murder you.
Those threatening ones where she says again and again that she's going to kill her.
She guarantees it. And again, they focused on the witnesses saying that they heard her say, I'm gonna stab you and your Mexican boyfriend.
Yeah. Now, the jury took 2.5 hours to reach a verdict of guilty.
Surprised it took that long. She got 27 years in prison.
Wow. Which she deserves. Absolutely. The judge said the murder was no accident.
It was like, don't even try. No, I don't believe that for a second.
She did appeal, but she lost. So she'll still be in there.
Rachel's father Barry actually said quote we've lost our daughter as far as having her home with us but she's still here for us to visit.
But Sarah's lost. Her parents lost their only daughter.
Oh, that's sad. Which I'm like, that's big of her parents to recognize and say.
And there were rumors that Rachel was going to write a book.
But Sarah's parents filed a civil lawsuit to stop her from profiting from any of this.
Yeah, good. Josh was not allowed to attend Sarah's funeral.
Good. He doesn't deserve to. Rachel is still serving her sentence at Lowell Correctional Institution in Marion County, Florida.
And she will be there for quite some time.
Yeah. You know, I wonder if Josh would have even attended the funeral.
I don't know. Because he couldn't walk in there and, like, say goodbye to this girl that he thinks he loves.
Yeah, it's like, how can you even show your face there?
Yeah. When everyone knows how you treated her, first of all, and that you are the catalyst behind all this.
Right. I mean, you can't play with people's emotions like that.
You can't do it. No. And it's just a sad case.
Very avoidable. I know. Very of the time and very just like... frustrating to talk about later that's the thing it's so frustrating because you see the potential that each of them had and they just threw it away for this deadbeat Yeah, that's the thing.
What did he have to offer? And it was probably something that only they saw, you know, that the whole thing that like, you don't know him like I know him, you know, it's all. fallen we've all done it and it's like it's it's just really frustrating oh that's sad Yeah.
Yeah. It's a bummer. So that is the case.
RIP Sarah Ludman and... Rachel, you suck.
Josh, you suck. Yeah. So, woof. Yeah, what a doozy.
They usually are. They always are. Well, you can follow us on Instagram.
At Morbid Podcast. Hit us up on Twitter.
At Amorbid Podcast. Send us a Gmail. morbidpodcast at gmail.com we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it Weird.
But that's the way that you meet this boy and you fall in love with him and really he's not anything to fall in love with at all and you ruin your whole life and you throw it all away for him and then you stab somebody and you shouldn't ever stab anybody and don't ever tell anybody that you're going to murder them because that could be used against you later.
Bye. Bye! Thank you. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music.
Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
