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I have been listening to the Martha's Vineyard Beach and Book Club, which actually Elena recommended to me.
She did not listen to it, but she said, girl, this title sounds so you.
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Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is Morbid.
Sure is. It's still morbid. It still is.
It always will be. Forever and ever and always and always.
We're going to be like cockroaches will never die.
Oh, I was like, we'll be around even after the apocalypse.
Oh wow. It'll just be us with two microphones being like, hello.
Cucaracha! Precisely. There it is. Precisely la cucaracha.
So I think we don't have a whole lot to get to today before we jump into the case. which the case this week is Bible John.
I know, I'm pretty excited for this. Yeah, it's like a little continuation of Peter Tobin.
Because it connects, you see, and we had a lot of people from the UK and from you know, like all around the area being like, yay, I'm glad you're covering this because this is huge here.
I'm so glad that you guys are psyched about it and that I didn't ruin things or screw up things.
So, like, good job. High five to me. And also, I think the last couple of days on social media, like on our Instagram page, We've been asking people to give us ideas for Halloween costumes for us. and first of all you've all had amazing ideas you guys are killing it with the ideas and keep it coming like we are loving it because there's a reason we're asking for these ideas.
That's what we can't tell you. We can't tell you yet, but we're going to hopefully tell you I think the coming week or so.
Yeah, I think not. I want to say not this coming week, but the week after.
Yeah, I mean, we'll let you know. You'll know.
We're like, we actually don't really know.
We actually have no idea. It's going to be very soon, though, because, you know, Halloween's next month, so...
Yeah, so we're going to tell you very soon.
It's exciting. We can't wait. We can't wait to like utilize some of these ideas.
And if you didn't get on Instagram to like hit us up with your Halloween idea, we'll do another post.
Yeah, we will. What do you think? Yeah, so you can throw in what you think because you guys are so creative and amazing that I just love it. yeah somebody said that because we asked like specific things like oh like what game of thrones things should we be And somebody said one of us should be a dragon and the other should be a dire wolf.
That was a great one. That would be hilarious.
I loved that one. It was just so good. It was so perfect.
So keep them coming. Um, And I think the only other thing we wanted to mention was new merch in the merch store.
Yippee! And there's some really great stuff there.
We did a design that kind of like captured both of our Yeah, it was like a mixture of both of us.
Yeah, like a scalpel and a pair of shears.
So there's that, there's like a bunch of, there's like a tarot card one.
There's a Ouija board one. So there's a lot of cool stuff and you can go check that out at shop.morbidpodcast.com.
And of course, we will be adding more stuff all the time.
Yes, I know. Switching it up. A lot of people want to see like zip up hoodies and some people asked.
People are still asking for it. Sorry about that stutter.
People are still asking for rhinestone butt sweatpants.
I just want to see the merch companies face when we ask for that.
So can we have this? We were just actually wondering if you could print that on the butt.
Could you bedazzle this for us? Thank you.
Appreciate it. Thank you very much. Probably not going to happen, but we'll give it a shot, guys.
We'll try it. We love you. We'll do what we can for you.
We want to give you the world. So if we can give you the world bedazzled with rhinestones, we'll do it. there it is again so i think without further ado babble john let's talk about babble john The Bible.
So we connected him from last week, or last episode, excuse me, because...
A lot of people think that Bible John, who is technically an unsolved case, A lot of people think that he is Peter Tobin.
A lot of people think Peter Tobin is him.
They solved it. They think they solved it.
I don't know. Oh, okay. I'm not sure. I can see both sides of it, but I'm not convinced.
You're going to play... devil's advocate I'm not convinced so and I don't know I feel like we actually got a couple of emails from different uh uk listeners and like like more people said they didn't think that he was that peter tobin was bible john but we did get a couple that said they were convinced that he was So it's interesting to see like what everybody thinks.
But you're with the majority. I'm with the majority.
I'm standing firmly with them right now.
So. This is, like I said in last episode, he's known as Scotland's Zodiac Killer.
I know, I think that's crazy. Because, you know, he's like infamous, and obviously it's unsolved as of yet.
Also... A lot of people don't know if these, so these are three murders that are connected to him.
A lot of people don't know if these three murders are technically the same person.
Are they? Because are they different? not really but there's a lot of people think that the first one that we'll talk about obviously first is kind of a one-off that happened.
And then the two that followed were copycat.
Okay. But I don't know. I think it's the same person.
When I look at it, to me, it seems like the same person.
So just to clarify. You think that it's the same person that committed these three murders, but you don't believe it's Peter Tobin.
Exactly. Okay. But, you know, let me spell that out for myself.
You're like, so wait, let me like, let me catch myself up here.
So the first murder was in Glasgow, Scotland.
It was on February 22nd, 1968. Okay. So his first victim was Patricia Docker.
She was 25 years old. She was a nurse at the time.
She had brown hair, brown eyes. She was considered... She was very pretty.
She was very... She was petite. She was just, like, adorable.
Yeah. Um, she was also married, but was separated from her husband and going, like starting a divorce.
Aw, Patricia. Her husband was in the military.
They had one child together, a four-year-old boy.
And while they were going through the whole divorce proceedings, she was living with her parents with her son.
And this evening, February 22nd, she decided to go out to the Barrowland Ballroom. which we mentioned in the first, the other episode.
That's where the dances were going on. This is where all, it's a dance hall, so this is just like... you know kind of like just somewhere you would go to like have a night out yeah And she was leaving around 6.30ish that night.
And she was going to be going to their 25 and over singles night.
I think it was like on Thursday nights. Oh my god, that sounds like fun, but also horrible.
Well... Here's the thing. So at this time in Glasgow, I mean, dance halls in particular were like hopping.
Yeah. Glasgow was hopping. It was like the OG club.
It was. Lots of dance clubs, lots of bars, lots of nightlife going on.
The Barrowland Ballroom was located in the East End.
It was fairly popular. But not popular for the greatest reasons.
Not popular because it was this really high end place to go and like...
It was kind of a place where a lot of married people would go to cheat on their, you know, carry on affairs.
Yeah. It was basically just a pickup joint.
Cool. Like you went there for that specific reason.
Every city has one. You got to have one.
I think the Majestic Ballroom was maybe a notch higher than the Barrowland Ballroom, but it was kind of a similar vibe to it. it too at this time okay so there definitely was a couple in the area that were like this but i guess the bare limb ballroom was like pretty low on the totem pole Right.
The over 25 single nights on Thursdays. were known as the time when people that were married came out of the woodwork, like just coming out. to try to cheat on their spouses.
Wow, that's horrible. They were also a lot of older women that would attend these, like older, like, Cougars?
I was going to say like cougars, if you will.
Yes, I will. Well, I won't, but. That in an article I read on the Daily Record, they labeled this night, like a lot of people would call it, grab a granny night.
Shut the fuck up. Grab a fucking granny night.
I'm out. Grab a granny night. That's... fucking hilarious get out to the barrel ball barrel and ballroom and grab a motherfucking granny See, I feel like as a 25-year-old, I wouldn't be going to grab a granny night.
No. I'd feel some competition with the older gals.
Nah, banana night. Nah. banana oh my god i'm trying to think move with a meemaw night you're Did you write that down?
I didn't. I didn't write it. Off the cuff over there.
I could show you. I didn't. I'm like trying to think.
It's too gloomy for me to think today. It's too gloomy.
Maybe that's why I'm inspired. I'm like, gloom gets me going.
So, yeah. So grab a granny night. Move with a Meemaw. that's my fave so that is where she went this particular night to grab a granny night not Not a granny herself, not to grab a granny.
But she was, you know, she was 25 years old.
She got to go to the 25 and older singles.
And she was in the process of getting divorced.
So I'm sure she was like, just trying to get back out there.
Well, I'm sure it wasn't all Nana's and Grandpa's.
Yeah, I think it was just trying to get back out there.
She was like, you know what? And I'm sure going through something like a divorce, obviously I've not gone through one.
You just need to get out. But I imagine it's a traumatic experience no matter what.
You loved that person at some point. And it's like you probably feel a little like knocked down a peg.
Yeah. You want to get some attention and feel like you're, you know, like get some attention from...
A vibe from someone else. Honestly, to reference my last episode, she wanted to be young and getting it. exactly she was young and she wanted to be getting it and she deserved to get it she did Patricia did she was a nurse she worked hard Now, the problem was that Patricia had told her parents she was going to another dance hall that night.
Because she was like, I am not going to grab a granny.
And people think like. either she had planned to actually go to this other ballroom and it just changed.
Or maybe she's embarrassed. Or she just was embarrassed to tell her parents because it had a reputation.
I've told mom and papa that I was going to plenty of places that I wasn't actually going to.
Yeah, maybe she just was like, you know what, I don't want to hear about it.
She had told them she was going to the Majestic Ballroom, which was a little bit higher end than this was.
Okay. She did end up at the Barrowland Ballroom, and this did cause some issues later in the investigation when everything happened. because initially her parents thought she had gone to the Majestic.
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So the following day, her body was found.
Oh, Patricia. No one had really, like, she left the club.
And that was it. No one saw her again until the next morning.
Yeah. She was found naked, saved for one shoe. on her foot she was found near her home in Langside Place and she was found by a man on his way to work oh god that I'll fuck your day up.
And I guess she was placed near his garage.
So he was just like, oh, okay. Oh, okay.
Her clothes and her purse were missing completely.
Mm-hmm. She was very close to her parents' home, like, yards away.
Yeah. This made a lot of people think like she must have been on her way home and was attacked because why would she be so close to home?
Or maybe the person knew her family. That's the thing.
It's like, was it coincidental? that like he happened to dump her really close to her home or... And you know what?
Already I'm thinking not Peter Tobin because Peter Tobin took these girls to his home.
Exactly, and he hid them after. Right. It wasn't like a display.
He liked to hide his shit. Yeah. He didn't like to display it out.
Bible John, if you see, is known for displaying.
See, that's a totally different MO. Exactly.
Exactly. I've learned a thing or two. You have.
You really have. And you know, you're on my same page here.
I love it. But yeah, the proximity to her house really can't be ignored.
That's just a coincidence. There has to be something to it.
So she was on her back. And this is interesting.
Her sanitary pad was next to her on the ground.
Because yes, all three of Bible John's victims happened to be menstruating at the time of their deaths.
That's interesting because it's like, how would he have known that?
Exactly. And we're going to get into that because...
And their pads were placed on or near them.
Oh, that's all three times. So he made a show of this.
Right. Which is interesting and we're going to talk about it later because I have some theories about it.
That's like when we talked about the Papin sisters.
Yeah. I don't know why I said it like that.
Papine. Papines. I made them like Italian, I think.
The papines. The menstrual blood. It definitely means something.
Menstrual blood isn't just coincidental.
Menstrual blood is not just menstrual blood.
It's not just, you know. Let me tell you, it's never just menstrual blood.
It isn't. And anyone who's ever menstruated can tell you it's not just menstrual blood, it's I love a lot more.
Maybe it's menstrual blood. Maybe it's Maybelline.
You never know. I don't know. You know, maybe she's born with it.
So she was, you know, she definitely was.
We all were. So her head was also in a position like it seemed like he had put it looking to her right side.
It didn't look like it was just fallen that way.
It looked like she was looking at her pad.
Oh. Yeah. Which is just strange. Her head and face were beaten very severely.
Oh no. She had marks on her neck that indicated strangulation by some ligature.
It was later determined that the cause of death was indeed strangulation, and it was also revealed that she had been raped.
Oh, no. When she hadn't returned home the following morning after she left for the Barrowland Ballroom, her parents reported her missing right away.
They had no idea that... Because she was found the next morning, remember?
Yeah. They had already found this woman.
The police. The parents had no idea that that was their daughter.
No idea. So when they called the police and reported her, they were like, oh, we found the woman. which is really sad.
Yeah. Of course, police went searching for answers because there was nothing going on at this crime scene that could tell them really anything.
Right. He took basically all the evidence with him.
I mean, he left some DNA because he left semen in a lot of these.
I was just gonna ask you that but at the time in the 60s can't do they could collect it they just couldn't do anything with it Now, one neighbor told investigators that she had heard a woman scream, leave me alone that night. the night before but that's all they got and it's like why didn't they call The police.
I would definitely call the police if I heard somebody scream, leave me alone.
Like, I don't know. My dumb ass would be like, I'm out.
Like, let's go save her. Yeah, like, if you hear someone screaming, leave me alone, just call the police.
Like, call someone. I don't know. Try something.
Go help her. Just go risk your life. Do it.
Be a fucking hero. Be a hero. Don't you want to be?
I don't know. It's just like when you hear that, I do something trigger something in you.
Yeah. Call someone. Other than just like, oh, that was strange.
Phone a friend. I don't know. People, man.
50-50. Earlier I said that she had told her parents she was going to the Majestic Ballroom.
In that it had hurt the investigation. Yeah.
Well, that's because now they were going and interviewing all the employees at the Majestic. were like, yeah, we didn't see her.
And the employers are like, yeah, we don't know.
And they really dug in and tried to get any witness accounts or sightings of who she may have left with, who she may have danced with that night, but she wasn't there.
No one here. So it was a colossal waste of time.
So it was like weeks, like a couple weeks that they were focusing on the Majestic and That wasn't it.
Right. Her purse was eventually found, not her clothing, but her purse was eventually found in the river cart.
So somebody had thrown it in the river. Is that close by?
It was close by. It seemed like they must have just thrown it out.
On their way out. Wherever they were going.
This would be the first of three murders, like I said, for Bible John.
All three were raped. All three were strangled either with their stockings or by his hands or They think that Patricia may have been strangled by a belt.
But it was never like, it was always a ligature.
Yes. All three were menstruating at the time.
That's strange. Yeah. And all had the sanitary towels left on or near them.
And then all three of the girls handbags were missing. and the contents were just discarded.
They were either discarded like near them, somewhere else, but then the handbags were gone.
They only found that one handbag. Weird.
So the next one was August 15, 1969. So that was a year and a half later.
So that's a pretty long cooling off period.
Which is why a lot of people think that first one is a one-off and that the other two...
But like there's other ones, like Jeffrey Dahmer.
He had a very long period. Between his first murder and his second one, there was like 15 years or something.
It was like a long time. Bundy had a really long cooling off period before he went fucking wild.
30 years. Doing nothing and then start trying to start again, at least.
I can't remember. Ed Kemper had a little bit of a cooling off, didn't he?
I think he did. I think you're right. I don't think it was a year ago.
There's definitely examples of them taking time off.
I mean, that is long, I will say. And who knows if he wasn't in prison for part of that?
Who knows? You know, people get sick. People get jobs that take up their time and they can't focus on it as much.
Maybe he had kids. Maybe he had kids. That first two years is busy.
You just don't know. I don't know. So...
The second one, like I said, a year and a half later, her name was Jemima McDonald.
She was 32 years old. And she was a single mother of three.
Oh, God. So she went out to the Barrowland Ballroom. with friends while her sister Margaret watched her children for.
Yeah. The next day she wasn't home and her sister was getting really worried because she was like, She would have come home for her kids.
This just doesn't make sense. And she would have contacted us if she wasn't.
So Margaret kind of asked around and was like, has anyone seen her?
Have you heard from her? And then she started hearing rumors this following day that people had seen these young kids, like little boys. coming out of an abandoned tenement building on McKeith Street, and that's in Bridgeton.
And these little boys were talking about seeing a dead body in an abandoned house.
Jesus, like literally stand by me, the body vibes.
That's like little boys being like, you want to see your body?
I'm like, what's up with all the little boys in this town?
Because in the last episode you did, they were playing with a dead dog's head.
They were playing football with a dead dog's head.
What's up with the little boys over there?
Just boys being boys, you know? Boys will be boys.
You know, like... Just kidding. But yeah, this is like straight up stand by me.
Yeah. Body style. yeah so she heard this and she's hearing these rumors and she's like i don't know i have a bad feeling Yeah.
So she went to sleep that night and she said all she could think about was that.
She still hadn't heard from her sister, and she's like, I gotta know.
Her kids are Probably like asking for her.
Well, and for the next morning, which was a Monday. she was her sister was so concerned she went to that house oh wow I just got chills.
Where she found Jemima's battered body. Oh my God, she found her sister.
And she had a feeling. She knew it. That's like, that's some sister shit right there.
And she found her sister. In a fucking old abandoned tenement house after little kids were talking about seeing a dead body.
Wow. Yeah. Like, that's some shit. Because that could have been anybody's body.
Yeah. Or she just knew it. Some little kids like me.
Making shit up. Wow. That's what she was like.
I would have been like, little kids are weird.
Right. They make shit up. But she was lying face down on the ground.
She was fully clothed, but her clothing had tears and like rips and was all disheveled.
Her stockings and shoes were placed next to her as well as her sanitary pad.
Uh-huh. She had been beaten exactly like Patricia, her head and face.
She was clearly strangled and had been raped as well.
It was determined that her own stockings were used as the ligature to strangle her with.
Mm-hmm. And they said always that the cause of death was strangulation.
It was never the beating in the head and face.
It wasn't severe enough to kill them. Oh, wow.
But it's like... severe enough to like to make a difference yeah uh they started so the police started speaking with anyone that they could again, and they're trying to get information since, again, not much of evidence is left on the scene, except for semen, which they found on the stockings and such. but they can't do anything with it.
So her photo was actually put on the huge screen at the Barrowland Ballroom.
Oh, wow. And because of this, two witnesses came forward and were like, hey, we can help because we remember seeing her.
Oh, good. And they were like, so they said they thought she came around 7 p.m. and she was seen speaking with some random dude.
Mm-hmm. And they said this guy had a Glasgow accent.
He was tall. He was slim. He had short red hair.
It's always a fucking ginger. It's always a fucking ginger.
As a ginger, I'll say it. And around midnight, the two of them were seen leaving together.
Shit. Uh oh. These witnesses were asked to work with a sketch artist to get a composite for the man, and they did.
It's not the famous sketch that everybody's seen.
The one that we posted, I think it's a different one.
Okay. He does look similar to the other sketch, but it's not that one.
He just kind of looks like a guy. Does he?
Like, there's really nothing that you're like, oh, I would know that guy.
Like, it's just a guy. He could look like any guy.
Yeah. A lot of guys look like other guys.
It's true. But a lot of people will be like, oh, Peter Tobin looks just like that.
And I'm like... Not really, first of all.
And second of all, like, you could stick a lot of guys and you could probably stick Ted Bundy in there and like force him to look like that.
Yeah. You know, like, it's just, I don't know.
It just doesn't make sense. Throw some red hair on.
Well, in the first sketch, didn't have red hair.
Oh, because they didn't colorize it. So it was just like, oh, gotcha, gotcha.
A like pencil sketch kind of thing. So it literally could look like anybody.
Right. But interestingly, this was the first time a composite sketch was distributed widely via news and media in the U.K.
Oh, wow. That's cool, too. On October 31st, 1969.
Halloween. This is Halloween. A man was walking his dog in a field and found the naked body of a woman.
The woman was Helen Puttick. Or Puttick?
P-U-T-T-O-C-K? Puttick. Puttick. Puttick, right?
Puttick? Puttick? She was 29 years old.
She was married and had two children. I hate that all of them have children.
Exactly. There's differing accounts of if she was married at the time or if she was separated.
Okay. So either way she had two children.
Interesting that they all may have been separated or divorced exactly i i was i actually say that later because it is an interesting little connection I don't want to mess up anything that you're saying, but I do have a theory going.
This guy has mommy issues. Oh yeah, I'd say so for sure.
For sure. things. So she had been beaten in the face and head severely.
She was raped. strangled with her own stockings, the contents of her handbag had been scattered nearby, but the bag itself was missing.
Her sanitary pad was put under her arm. Oh, that's very interesting.
There were grass stains on Helen's feet, which investigators took to see that there was definitely a struggle.
She tried to get away. And they said she definitely fought and tried to escape her killer.
She also had a deep bite mark on her leg.
Oh, wow. Yeah. Which is fucked. Bundy vibes.
Very Ted Bundy. She had managed to tear off one of the killer's cufflinks. and it was found at the scene.
This is interesting. That's great. And this is very interesting because in...
So, and this is in regards to connecting it to Jemima's case, especially. because the man they had a sketch of, and the one that witnesses saw her speaking with and dancing with that night, They said that he was, one of the things they said about him was that he was dressed very nicely.
And cufflinks are, like, nice. Yeah, and they set, like, a suit, like, dapper as fuck, which was very out of place for the Right.
Barrel and ballroom was not somewhere you came in your three-piece suit.
Like you said. Yeah. So a cuff link seems right on par with this.
Right. Her killer was dressed so nice he was wearing cuff links.
Right. So these two connect to me. They asked around the area and one woman said she thought she heard screams.
Good lady. Yeah. Call the fucking police.
Yeah. But she said she couldn't be sure.
So. What? She was like, I thought I heard screams, but whatever.
You're normally sure. So. So after speaking to Helen's parents, they learned that Helen went out to the Barrowland Ballroom with her sister Jean, around 6.30 that night, both Jean and her left the kids with Jean's husband.
Because I believe that this is where I think Helen might have been separated because they left them with one husband.
Yeah. both women met men there and they weren't doing anything wrong but like they like danced hung out with some people yeah And they were kind of like hanging out with these men.
And the man Helen was with said his name was John.
And Jean, the sister, said that this guy was tall.
Slim with reddish hair and was dressed very nicely.
Mm-hmm sounds like the guy does the other dude left and At one point, the guy that was talking to Jean, the sister.
Did they say it seemed like the two were friends?
No, they just met there. Just totally separate.
And John and the girls decided they were going to share a taxi back home.
Because this is coming from her sister. Her sister's an eyewitness here.
Yeah. Has hung out with this man all night.
That's fucking nuts. So her sister said he openly talked about but did not directly quote the Bible.
And he said he didn't like he was he kept talking about like religion and like morals and He told the women, quote, I don't drink at Hogmanay, I pray.
What's Hogmanay? No idea. He also said that dance halls were dens of iniquity.
Then why are you there? And he also told a story, like some Bible thing where the woman was stoned to death for like, adultery or something and he's telling this story and they were like Like they were like, this is weird now.
And they're in a taxi. Glad that we shared this Uber.
And this is obviously how he earned the name Bible John.
Don't share anything. If I've learned anything in life, don't share.
Just don't do it. Gene said he really wanted Gene dropped off first.
Of course. He was insistent. Because he liked Helen.
And he said it was because Jean lived the furthest.
And he said... He said she would have to be in the taxi alone if she was dropped off last. which is a good point and he said he was worried about that he didn't want her left in the taxi alone praying on people's and it's so logical that you're like can't argue that yeah So she also remembered that he said his name was like Templeton, Sempleton, or Emerson, something that sounded like that.
Okay. She couldn't remember exactly. She also said something like when he was speaking, she noticed he had a tooth On the top right, that kind of overlapped the one behind it like a snaggle tooth.
Do you know what's so funny? I thought that Peter Tobin kind of looked like my old stepdad and he had that fucking snaggle too.
You're right. Well, Jean was dropped off first because he wanted her to be.
And Helen was like, I'm fine. And Jean's like, you know, like she's and this is where it like.
But also didn't Jean have her children? Yeah.
Oh. So she was like, but I think she was like, you know, Helen wants to hang out with this guy a little longer.
Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. I got you, sister.
Yeah, like I'm just trying to give you some time, you know.
Because again, I think she was recently separated too.
So I think it was like, get it, girl. Right.
You know, like, I'm just going to let you.
Female empowerment. Of course, Helen wasn't fine.
So they, this is, you know, the next morning she was found in the fields.
Her poor sister. So Jean helped create a composite sketch.
Can you imagine having to do that while you're also mourning the loss of a horrific death?
And this is the infamous sketch with the red hair and everything.
And again, Jean shared a taxi with this guy.
And like spent like most of the night with him.
So we can believe her description here. Yeah.
And police now knew they had three connected cases because of everything we said.
Now, little side note, at first I was starting to think like what they were actually calling this killer because they were like, yeah, these three cases are connected.
But serial killer wasn't a term. Until later, as far as I knew.
Holden Caulfield. Not Holden Caulfield. Holden Caulfield.
Special Agent Holden hadn't stepped on the scene yet.
I'm leaving. You know, hashtag Jonathan Groff.
So, but then I did a little research. Of course you did.
And it may have been a term before Robert Reznor was actually credited for it.
In the 1980s. But then apparently way back in the 30s, A guy named Ernst August Ferdinand Ganach.
Hell yeah. Yeah. The director of the Berlin criminal police used the term, I'm going to butcher this and I apologize.
Sarian Mordor. In reference to the case of Peter Curtin, who's the vampire of Dusseldorf, we'll cover that, don't worry.
Oh yeah, that's a good one. And in English, this roughly translates to series murderer.
Right. Fascinating. Fascinating. Back in the 30s.
Yeah, I love that. That's interesting. I don't know if they were referring to... bible john is a serial murderer at this point or like a series murderer yeah like it's interesting to think about i couldn't find anything of what they were actually calling him I want to say they talk about that in, what's the show that we always talk about?
Mindhunter. that do they say something about series murder series how it used to be called that yeah it makes sense so it's like huh that's cool that was a fun little fact little fact I'll have a tidbit. was seen at 1.30 a.m. that night by another witness.
They said he was very disheveled Because he had just beaten a woman.
He had scratches on his face. Because she fought like hell.
Yep, and he was headed from the bus to the Clyde Ferry. that night.
Because he was getting the hell out of there.
Which, I can see why people are connecting it to Peter Tobin, because that was kind of his MO, too.
He did the then ran yeah but he also like brought them with him yeah exactly so Now tips started coming, pouring in.
They were like... They said something like over 250 tailors were interviewed. in the area because he was known to wear a suit right uh none of them could recognize him at all they're like i've never seen him uh a bunch of barbers like almost 500 barbers were because he had a very like like slick hair very slick haircut They interviewed over 5,000 suspects and got nothing.
Wow. Over 100 detectives worked the case and they took over 50,000 statements.
So one thing I wondered was like, did they interview the taxi driver?
I feel like maybe, but also it might have been really hard to narrow him down.
But like when I'm... I don't know, because it's like...
At a certain time, he picked them up, you know, for a cab company.
How big is Glasgow? I mean, I don't know if that would affect it.
I don't know if it's the area. Because think of trying to find one taxi driver in New York is what I'm thinking.
Yeah, that's true. But if it's like a certain like if it's like a certain company and I don't know.
I don't know if it's the same as over here.
I don't know this is your case. I don't know.
So this is also when 16 police and investigators started staking out the Barrowland Ballroom. trying to mesh with the crowd, like dressing like, you know, civilians.
And they were trying to see if they could spot this guy because obviously all three of them, he met them at the Barrowland Ballroom.
That was his place. They were led by Detective Superintendent Joe Beattie.
And Jean went with them sometimes, the sister of Helen.
That must have been horrible. to have to go back there.
I know. And she always tried to help with like sketchups.
Sketchups. sketches, lineups, like all that shit.
She was always trying to help the case. Good for her to do that.
Yeah, she was always into it, like, till the day she passed away.
It remains unsolved. I know, that's so nuts.
Yeah, it's insane. So some of the theories are that maybe he was in the military.
And went overseas. Mm-hmm. And that's why, because again, it stopped.
Right. After that. Third murder, it stopped.
And I'm sorry, what year was that last murder?
Was it 71, did you say? No, that last one, one.
Was 1969. Oh, 69. Okay. Where the fuck did I get 71?
Not sure, but it's okay. And they said, you know, maybe he's in the military.
Maybe he went, you know. That's why it stopped.
Maybe he was in prison for something else.
Yeah. Or, like you said, he might have mommy issues and maybe he was being hidden.
Right. By a mommy. Right. Because it certainly seems like that could be the case.
It definitely. That's the first thing I thought of.
Now, when it comes to the sanitary pads and the menstruation, like you were saying, how would he know?
Yeah. Well, maybe his whole thing was he wanted to sleep with these women.
That's what I was thinking. And he would get. pissed when he found out that they were menstruating and he freaked out and murdered them.
And he raped them though. But that's the thing.
But maybe they were like, I'm on my period.
We can't have sex. Oh. And he would get pissed.
And then all the other times he would pick up women, they weren't on their period.
So he would just... have sex with them and leave.
Yeah. But these women who said no because I'm on my period probably got him angry.
It's kind of... I don't know if this is stupid to say, but it's interesting that they indeed were on their period because like how many times have you been like, I'm on my period, we can't.
Yeah, exactly. But it seems like these ones were, you know, this is telling the truth.
And that's why he decided to make such a display out of it. because it was the reason he was so angry.
Actually, that is like, yeah. Because I can't really think of another reason.
There's no other way to go. Well, and I can't think of another reason why he would display the sanitary pads.
Yeah. Because I feel like it's almost like it was a fuck you to him and he made it a fuck you to them.
Exactly. That's the thing. It enraged him that that was the reason he couldn't sleep with them.
So he would rape them and then display the pad like, see?
I still got to do it. Yeah. Like, you know, his like flag of like, I did it.
Yeah, exactly. Which is disgusting. So. All the way forward in 1983, all of a sudden this dude came forward and was like, whoa.
I used to go to the Barrowland Ballroom all the time with my friend.
And I was reading the papers and for five years, I was like, wow, this Bible John case is like really bad.
And wow, that's crazy. And then it hit me that this guy was totally my friend I went to the Bear Land ballroom with.
Took you a while there, buddy. Now, apparently this dude who is not named anywhere was living in the Netherlands and was married and nothing really came of this.
So it's just weird. This guy just came forward and was like, I think it's my friend.
And they were like, okay. And then that was it.
Maybe they looked into his friend and they must have looked into it and they were like yeah you're done he's never been named so that was just interesting because it seemed like it was going to be a big break and then it was nothing yeah Now, during the murder spree, people in the area thought that Bible John was this guy named John Irvine McInnes.
He was related to another suspect that was looked at.
And he kind of fit the bill of what it was.
Well, in 1980, unfortunately, though, He completed suicide at the age of 41.
And he had done it by cutting his brachial artery, which is in your upper arm.
That's random as hell. Which is like a very random way to do it.
Yeah. So in 1996, they exhumed his body.
Yeah. And they exhumed him for his DNA because they were going to compare it.
And they compared it to the demon found...
I wrote the demon. It probably auto-corrected.
It is Damon. Damon Simon. His seed is Damon.
It is Damon. They compared it to the semen found on Helen's stockings, and it was... inconclusive okay that's annoying so not enough to name him as the killer but it's like Not enough to rule him out either.
And I think like when I said he fit the bill, I think he looked like the guy.
He did go to the Barrowland Ballroom. He kind of fit the whole vibe.
So they were like, hmm. Like a lot of people were like, you should look into this guy.
So that was like shit, you know? It's too bad they couldn't get more of a sample.
Exactly. And the sample was deteriorating the longer we're going past this.
It's like... We're like, how many years later?
It's deteriorating to nothing. Then we fast forward to 2007.
Shit. When Peter Tobin Did his whole shit.
So Professor David Wilson was the guy who pointed out.
The idea that Tobin was too old to just be beginning killing with Angelica Cluck's murder.
Which is true. Like he was like, this doesn't make sense.
And how he behaved after it suggested that he had done it before.
Also, all of his wives said they were beaten, raped and strangled by him.
Yeah, which is exactly what Bible John would do.
But all of his, like... not his wife victims, like the victims that weren't his wife, they didn't have very many similarities.
No. Well, they all were beaten, and most of them were strangled to some degree, but they weren't killed by strangulation.
Yeah. He also met his first wife at Barrowland Ballroom.
And people think that he does kind of look out like the sketch, but I don't agree.
I don't think he looks like the sketch at all.
Yeah, I don't think he looks like the sketch.
Also, Peter Tobin was short. Right. I think he was like...
5'8 or something like that. I can look it up while you continue talking.
Like short as in, not like short, you know, just short and compared to... A shorter man.
In Bible John was said to be at least six feet tall.
Oh, wow. Like he was known to be tall. And you're not going to mistake.
Yeah, you're just not. And also, Peter Tobin doesn't have red hair at all.
And... I mean, I guess it could be like a lighting thing that like maybe some people thought he had red hair, but like...
I feel like when dudes have red hair, you know that they have red hair.
You know it, right? Yeah. So, yeah, I just don't think he looks like the sketch, but...
His wives all also claimed that it pissed him off when they were on their periods.
Okay, that's weird. And that it put him in fits of rages, huh?
Fits of rage. I didn't even pick up on that.
I was like, why did that sound so weird coming out of my face?
He was also a Roman Catholic. He was also super religious.
Uh-huh, so Bible. So that does, it does check out.
I wonder if he had mommy issues because we didn't really know about his childhood.
I do wonder that because you don't know a lot.
So he was 5'10", by the way. So not too far.
So he wasn't short. He was just not over six feet. right but that could be a mistake well i you know i have no like i know i'm really bad at that too so i could do that to be like six feet Like I could say that John was like six, seven.
And the other thing was all these women were short.
So he probably looked even taller. So maybe in comparison, he looked like six feet.
Right. So I didn't even think of that. So maybe it's not because you you make John look taller because you're tiny next to him.
Not Bible John, you're John. Yeah. I mean, in the beginning, like when you were going through all the murders, I was like, no, no, no.
But now that you are saying. There are a couple of these things that make sense.
I'm not sold either way. Right. But I'm not totally on the other side.
Exactly. That's why I'm kind of like, I get it.
I get both sides. Yeah. Two women did come forward at this time in 2007 to say that they had been attacked or almost attacked at the Barrowland Ballroom. by Peter Tobin.
Stop going to the Barrowland Ballroom. I know.
They both said that they saw his photo in the media and they almost fell over because they were like, he's 100 Bible John wow and they were like this was around the time that like Bible John was doing his thing yeah Professor Wilson, the guy who first said, like, you know, the Angelica or the Angelica Cluck murder was not his first.
Uh-huh. He said that he knew they, he was like, I know these two people are the same people.
And he was like during the trial, he was like, Bible John is Peter Tobin.
Peter Tobin is Bible John. Right. And he said that... And this was during the trial for the murder of Dinah McNichol.
Yes. And... So she was the one who was hitchhiking with that guy, David Tremlett, who she met at the music festival.
Yep. And David Tremlett was dropped off first, left her with Peter Tobin.
Just like how the Helen was. Exactly. Helen's sister.
And he said that the man who killed Dinah was very superior acting.
And like very like sanctimonious. I can't picture like Peter Tobin being sanctimonious.
I know, but he was because he was like, he was very like, he used his religion a lot to like be high and mighty.
Right, right, right. And Jean, Helen's sister, said the man who killed her sister was the exact same way.
Very sanctimonious, very superior acting.
Like, same exact thing. Interesting. Now, apparently one of Peter Tobin's known aliases, because remember, I believe he had over 50.
50 aliases, was John Semple. And she had said it sounded like Templeton Exactly.
She had actually said his last name was Templeton or Sempleton. or something like that.
And it's simple. John Semple. Huh. But she says Jean, Helen's sister who spent the whole night with this Bible John who killed her.
She saw Peter Tobin. He, she said Peter Tobin is not Bible John.
Hmm. So maybe he just didn't age well. That's the thing.
It's like so long. That's really the only thing that like. gives me pause is the sister saying that he's absolutely not him because I'm like you spent the whole night hanging out with him.
That is true. You shared a taxi with him.
That is true. Like I don't know though.
The only thing that I can think of is like you said, like a lighting issue where it's always dark in bars like that.
Exactly. home in a taxi at night like yeah but I could definitely and it was a long time ago so maybe But you're right.
The sketch looks nothing like it. It doesn't look like him.
I don't think it looks like him at all. No.
So Jean passed away in 2010. Oh, R.A.P. Jean.
Weirdly, her last name was McLaughlin. Shut the fuck up.
An alias Peter Tobin used. That he would almost do as a fuck you.
Yep. If you think about- like that's weird isn't that that gave me a little bit of a chill Yeah, I really think that's weird.
And they did test the DNA on the stockings. and compared it to Tobin's DNA, and it didn't match, but that could be because it was decades old and had deteriorated. almost to nothing it's just not a good sample to use that's i think anything would have said no yeah Now, David Wilson, the professor that we talked about before, said about this case about Bible John being Peter Tobin he said quote I didn't set out to prove Tobin was Bible John but I would stake my professional Wow.
Yeah. Now... I mean, I don't... I mean, obviously he's a lot more educated than we are.
It's... Yeah, and it's like, it's, I think some of the weird things about this are obviously the menstruation aspect.
Yes, exactly. And what his wives had said, which to me is what I believe is that he would pick these women up to have sex with them.
Some of them he was able to have sex with and went about his merry way.
The women who said, no, I'm on my period.
He went into a fit of rage and murdered them and made a show out of the period.
Mm-hmm. And then I also think that there's something to do, like you said, these women are single mothers.
Yeah. He's very religious. Mm-hmm. I'm not saying all religious people are like this, but he sounds like... But he was like very...
He sounds like a very aggressive, angry religious person that is very judgmental.
And it sounds to me like he might be using these women as an example of sin.
Especially like some religious people, like they take the Bible as like more, not a suggestion, but they don't take it like word for word.
They warp it to fit their own. And I think he was like really somebody that did that.
He seems like a hateful person that warped it to fit his hate.
Exactly. And I think he was doing that like the adulterous woman gets stoned.
Yeah. And these are women who are separated and also single mothers.
Now they're out and they shouldn't be out.
Which she's probably saying like, what exactly?
Why are you out? These places are dens of iniquity.
You're a mother. And I'm going to teach you a fucking lesson.
I'm going to teach you why you shouldn't be out.
Yep. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But again. Technically, it's an unsolved set of murders.
We don't know who Bible John is. And we may never know.
Part of me definitely thinks he's Peter Tobin, but then another part of me gives pause.
He's Peter Tobin-esque. For sure. Yes. But a lot of serial killers are just serial killer-esque.
That's the other thing. It's like they all kind of like play off each other.
Right. And you can kind of fit them all to like each other in a little way.
Right. And there are some similarities that you're like, all right, that's, that's interesting.
And that, you know, that professor saying I would stake my professional reputation on it.
And I know some of the original investigators in the uh bible john case have all said they believe 100 peter tobin is bible john huh But I don't know.
I'm not convinced. I know. Well, that happens sometimes.
Like people are like, I would stake my career on that and I believe it.
And then it turns out like you get like 100%. match and they're like well shit like call me crazy yeah it's like maybe it's just you just never know i don't know I can't.
I honestly am not. I can't stand on either side of the fence.
I don't know. yeah i want to stand on one side but that one gave me like such an eerie feel yeah that was a very creepy it's a strange one so that's the tale of bible john thank you bible john the bible What's that?
What is that from? Why do I keep saying that?
The Bible. I don't remember. What is that from?
We remember we like it's from a movie that I used to watch a lot.
What's that? What's that movie, everybody?
The Bible. Like somebody just says it like that.
Yeah. Oh man. That's going to bother me.
Yeah. If somebody knows what, because I'm sure somebody's listening and screaming. answer yeah exactly just scream the answer at us please because i need to know comment it to us on instagram at Morbid Podcast.
Hit us up on Twitter. A Morbid Podcast. Send us a Gmail.
And definitely shop our new merch at shop.morbidpodcast.com.
Yes, it's so good. We hope you keep listening.
And we hope you keep. It. Weird. But not so weird that you got mad at somebody for being on their period and then you're like, really beating them and like hurting them really badly and then you kill them and then you tape their sanitation pad under their arm because that's just really gross of you.
It is. Stop having your mommy issues. Don't do it.
It's like, come on. Don't be Bible John.
Get out of here. Or Peter Tobin. Don't keep it that weird.
Bye. Thank you. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
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