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I have been listening to the Martha's Vineyard Beach and Book Club, which actually Elena recommended to me.
She did not listen to it, but she said, girl, this title sounds so you.
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Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is Morbid.
It's a whole ass morbid. You know why? It's Elena's Morbid.
It's Elena-centric. And we know I can't do a mini.
You can't even do a regular main episode anymore without it being like 42 hours long.
I know. She's insane. Ever since I upped my research game, you're like, same.
I'll do it too. but where will i go from here i'm double downing that's what i'm doing you are Or doubling down, either way.
I was like, that sounds not right. I'm here for... Either way, I'm here for it.
Yeah, words. They're hard. Well, this one...
I originally got the bare bones of it together in the outline.
It was like five pages. Which is, like, normally what my full case is.
Well, and I was like, five pages is going to be, like, nothing.
Like, I was actually like, oh, shit, maybe I shouldn't even do this I hit five pages and I'm like, we got an hour.
There it is. No, I was like really upset about it.
I was like, come on, there's got to be more.
And then I found the court documents. We love a good court document.
Here we are. And I got so much more information.
I was so excited. And now it's ten and a half pages.
So everybody settle in. Because it's going to be a long one.
Wait, I need to ask, how many pages was the screenwriter for you?
Do you remember? Uh, that was like 11 and a half, I think.
Okay, so we should prepare for like an hour and 45 minutes, I would say.
Yeah. I mean, it kind of depends on like discussions, I think, too.
How often I interrupt you. How often you interrupt me, exactly.
So... I think we don't really have any business to get to, but what we're going to be covering today is the case of...
Kim Edwards and Lucas Markham, aka the Twilight Killers.
So Elena told me that it's called the Twilight Killers, but she won't tell me why.
It's true. Because she wants a real react.
I do. I was like, I can't tell you beforehand because it's...
It's weird that they're called the Twilight Killers because it seems like a very small part of the case.
Right. But it's small, but it's shocking.
I think it's the part of the case that you're like, what?
I just, for me, I'm just like, do they think that they're vampires?
It's like a Jeremy Stanky where he thought he was a werewolf.
That would make it easy. Okay. You know, it's funny because when I was reading, so they are both 14-year-olds and they are in a relationship together.
Mm-hmm. Or they were. You know, a 14-year-old relationship.
Yeah. But it was a real intense one. And it reminds me of the Jasmine Richardson, Jeremy Stanky relationship in the way that they were like, it's us against the world.
Right. They were weirdly obsessed with each other.
They became way too connected. And then they started looking at people who were trying to keep them apart.
Like enemies. You gotta go. All right. Well, let's dive in now.
This one. Also, besides the Jeremy Stanky and Jasmine Richardson case...
This one really reminded me of the Myra Hindley and Ian Brady case.
Which I don't know that much about. I know too much about that case.
What else is Because before I had kids, I mean, I do it now, but much more before.
Mm-hmm. I obsessively read cases. Like, I know every case known to man at least a little bit.
And I remember the Myra Hindley and Ian Brady case. fascinated me.
I could not stop reading about it because it was just so unbelievable.
And Now, I always said I was like, I have trouble looking at it now because it has kids.
And it just changes. But a lot of people have asked to do it.
It's a huge case. It is fascinating. It deserves to be told.
Yeah. So I'm going to take one for the team guys because after reading this case and it was compared to that one and I'm going to mention it in here.
I've decided that I'm going to cover the Ian Brady and Myra Hindley case.
Next week. Whoa. And it's a big one. Next week is going to be a big week.
We're going to have the completion... Yeah, that's a gross word.
Of my case, and then... Or Moira Henley.
Moira. I was thinking about Moira Rose. You were.
Because I just used that GIF recently. But yeah, so yeah, we'll have part three of the Brenda...
Schaefer case from Ash, and then we'll start the Myra Hindley and Eden Brady, which I'm Fairly positive is going to be more than one part.
Yeah, I would think so. We'll try. But I think hopefully you guys will be psyched about that because a lot of people have asked for it and I've been like avoiding it a little.
Well, we haven't done a heavy hitter in a while.
We do. And that one's a big one. So I feel like it's important to do.
So we'll be doing that. You might, you're definitely going to hear about it very briefly, not like really any details in this case, but it gets mentioned a lot, mainly because this one's part is a UK case as well.
So this is not an American case. Hello, international listeners.
We're here for you. We're here for you. uh so kim edwards and lucas markham uh they this crime occurred in spalding lincolnshire new england Okay.
Nope, not in New England. I was going to say New England.
Very used to saying New England because I live there.
Or actual England. Old England. The original.
The OG England. OG England. Oh, we're off to a good start, guys.
Good, good, good. So, Spalding Lincolnshire.
Not sure if it's Lincolnshire or Lincolnshire, but you guys will tell me and you'll do it nicely. i was gonna yeah okay i'm sure um so the victim in this case is 49 year old elizabeth edwards She was a single mother of two daughters, 14 year old Kim Edwards and 13 year old Katie Edwards.
Big spoiler alert already. Yeah. So, yeah, exactly.
It's like, just throwing it in there. The murderer, her daughter.
Kim is her child. So on April 14th, 2016...
Elizabeth was absent from work. Okay. And she wasn't just absent, she hadn't called in.
She worked as a lunch lady. She was a no-call, no-show.
Yeah, and she worked as a lunch lady. They call it a dinner lady in...
And all the things I read about this and heard about this, it's very, very English of them and I like it.
Maybe it's like is it like dinner's lunch and then like supper is our dinner?
Probably. I don't know. Honestly, it's us who says everything weird.
So like. Yeah, we're uncultured swines in America.
You guys have it right. We just mess it all up.
She was a dinner lady at the local primary school.
She loved working there. She was always on time.
She was early. She never would not show up and not call.
Right. So immediately, all of a sudden, ding, ding, ding, the radars are going up.
Now, Kim and Katie were also absent from school that day.
Which is weird. And nobody had called to say that they were going to be absent.
So people were like, huh, why are all three of them not here?
Yeah, that's cause for concern. Now, Elizabeth, the mother, did have a partner, Graham Green, and he was trying to get in touch with her and he couldn't get in touch with her.
And he said he was very concerned by this because she always answered the phone.
I believe he was like a truck driver or a lorry driver.
Yeah. And so he was gone a lot, but when he was gone...
He said they talked constantly. They were in constant communication.
So he was like, this was very concerning to me.
Yeah. Now, Katie and Elizabeth, the mother, Katie was the 13 year old.
They were very close. They just had one of those mother-daughter relationships where like Katie adored her mother.
She would, like, hang outside of the school waiting for her to come out from work.
Aww. They always hung out together. They were just very close.
They just happened to have that relationship.
Kim was not as close with her mom. And it just seemed like neither one of them really...
They just didn't get each other. Yeah, they just didn't get each other.
They didn't get along. I think Kim seemed, and we're going to see this later, not the easiest child to get along with, but it also seems like her mother may not have been the easiest mother for her to get along with.
That speaks to my soul. Yeah, it's like her mother, Elizabeth, seems like a wonderful person.
She seems like, you know, but there was definitely some troubles.
That happens. You know what my therapist always says?
She says, sometimes it's not the right parent for the right kid like you don't always get matched up how it should oh yeah i remember you saying that that makes sense Well, unfortunately, so Kim's 14... Kim had a 14-year-old boyfriend named...
I don't know if anybody can guess. I don't know.
Lucas Markham. Oh, shit. Okay. He was also not in school.
Oh yeah. And was reported missing by his aunt who he lived with.
Okay. So it's getting weird. Why are all these people out?
Where are they? Sketchy, sketchy. And nobody can find them.
It's not like they're just at home and they're like, yeah, we're out.
And they're PJs. Exactly. Watching The Price is Right because they're not feeling well today.
Or are they? I don't know. I don't know.
Do you know? I do that because you said... you're like this is a morbid case it is so relatives came over to the edwards home at different times during the day and were like knocking on the door just calling out for them because no one's answering the phone so now they're like what the fuck's going on like do we go there so i mean relatives i mean i think um Lucas's aunt had come over a couple of times and knocked on the door because she was like, maybe he's there.
Mm-hmm. People are freaking out. They came over at 5.10 p.m., 9 p.m., and 9.46 p.m.
And nothing. No one answered the door, but they did hear the dog barking inside.
Uh oh. So they were like, what is going on?
Right. But of course, nobody's banging down the door yet because it's been a few hours.
So 36 hours later. from when they first went missing.
Around noontime, the police have now been called by various people And they come to the home.
They knock on the door. Same thing. Don't hear anything except a dog barking inside.
So they open the door. Right. Because they're like, this is a wellness check now.
We can't come in. We need to go in there.
We're concerned. So in the home. Uh-huh. lucas and kim the two 14 year olds that are dating they were there Just sitting there in the living room.
They've been there the entire time people have been knocking.
Or they're just like watching TV. They're sitting on a mattress that they had brought into the living room.
They're cuddled under a blanket together.
Watching television like nothing is happening around them.
They're straight up chilling. They're Netflix and chilling.
Just hanging out. With some ice cream. There were alcohol bottles around.
They're just hanging out. What? What? And the police are like, oh hey, people have been knocking for days.
Did you hear them? hello and they were just like oh hey real weird that they i mean obviously we know what they did yeah like at least a little bit real weird that they just stayed there Oh, it gets weirder.
Okay. So police were like, hey, where is Elizabeth and Katie, your mom and your sister?
And Kim says, upstairs. Uh-huh. And they asked, what happened to your mother and sister?
Are they sick? Why are they upstairs? And Lucas looked them dead in the eye and they said with zero emotion, said, why don't you go upstairs and see?
Yeah. Are you shitting me? A 14 year old.
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And what did they see? They went upstairs and they found a bloodbath. upstairs and they just looked at the police and said why don't you go upstairs and see why don't What a bunch of shits.
Elizabeth and Katie were both dead in their beds where they were sleeping.
Yeah. They were killed while they were sleeping.
Blood was on the ceilings, the walls, on the victims, on their beds.
Both had been slashed at the throat and both had been there for almost two days.
And they're just downstairs eating ice cream watching TV.
Gets better. So the murder weapon, an eight inch butcher knife, was still in Katie's room, just left there after they had done it. and not cleaned or anything, just thrown on a table after they had murdered her.
They immediately were arrested, obviously.
And Lucas said fuck life to the cops as he was detained.
They're like, I bet you feel that way now that we're detaining you.
They were like, fuck your life, bro, because you're going to go away for a long time.
Fuck you, right? And they... As they were leading Kim outside...
Graham, the partner, shows up. Oh no, poor Graham.
And they're leading her outside. said he looked her dead in the eye and was like what the fuck is going on like he just looked at her because he was like in shock like what's happening She immediately put her head down and wouldn't look him in the eye and he said he was just devastated.
Oh no. He said he was the one who had to identify Elizabeth.
And he said, quote, It's something I would never wish on my worst enemy to identify someone you love.
I can't even imagine yeah so obviously again they were arrested immediately and it was determined that they had never left the home after the murder 36 hours prior.
They had been in there the entire time. with Kim's dead mother and dead little sister just right upstairs right the bathroom was upstairs So they had to go upstairs where the dead bodies were to use the bathroom.
I don't even like going to my own bathroom, which is like off of everything in my house when I'm home alone.
It freaks me out. Like, what? They were literally walking up there with her mother and her sister lying dead for two days.
Just going to pee and stuff. What? Now... This is the... This is very bizarre.
Well, we're going to find out in a little bit exactly what they did during those 36 hours and hoo boy.
I don't know. But before we do that, let's talk about Elizabeth Edwards. okay Elizabeth Edwards was a single mother like I said raising Kim and Katie alone She was well liked.
She sang in the church choir. She did. She was known to help out with the church.
She did a lot of charity work. She was described as bubbly and always happy, always smiling.
So a great person. person some of the documentaries I saw on this I think there's like there's one that's like Britain's killer kids or something like that yeah um There's home video that Graham has on his phone or his iPad of her.
And she's like dancing in like different outfits in the kitchen and stuff.
And she just seemed like a bubbly, happy mom.
Right. People said she did a lot of after school programs with children because she loved children.
Yeah, I mean, she works at an elementary school and she has two children.
She focused around children a lot. Like I said, she worked at the Lunch Lady and she worked at St.
Paul's Community Primary School. Katie, the 13 year old daughter, the second victim, was Super popular, super outgoing.
People loved her. She was the exact opposite of Kim.
Kim is not that. Okay. So she was... I think they talked to Kim and...
Kim and Lucas's friend or former friend.
Yeah. Adam. Yeah. plays another part in this.
Oh. He doesn't do anything, but he's part of it. uh so he was giving an interview and he was like yeah like katie was really popular like people really liked katie when they found out that she was dead it was like, devastation.
Like, it hit everyone hard. So Graham, Elizabeth's partner, said that he and Elizabeth were planning to get married.
Mm-hmm. Like, that was the new thing. They were planning to do it.
He had bought the family a dog. That was the dog that you heard.
Stop. So this is... It's really sad. And he and Katie would take walks with it.
He said he like really loved the kids. yeah but he did say Kim was tough yeah like Kim was tough to get like to crack she wasn't she was she had an attitude a lot of the time and he said That he was like, you know what, Elizabeth and Kim didn't have the super close relationship, but he didn't see anything that would make it seem like... one was being favored over the other or anything like that.
It was just... They had different relationships and he was like, and honestly... When you have different kids, it's like...
Yeah, and he was like, it had more to do with how Katie and Kim interacted with their mother than anything.
It's just Katie interacted with her happily and Kim didn't.
So it's just the way it is. Now, he also said Lucas and Kim have destroyed my life.
And the family lived in a kind of tough part of town at the time.
There was a lot of gangs and drug abuse and violence happening, so it wasn't like a great area.
So Kim Rose Edwards is what she was born.
She was born June 13, 2001, which really hammers in how fucking young they are.
Yeah. 2001. Wow. Yeah. She was very troubled, not attached to her mother from a very young age.
Oh really? Her father left her family when she was a baby.
Her mother raised her and her younger sister, Katie, alone, like we said.
There was a time, now this is the point where I'm like, huh.
This is an odd little blip in their history.
There was a time when social services was called.
Uh-huh, because there was a fight in the home and Elizabeth the mother slapped Kim in the face.
Okay. There's also reports that she punched Kim in the face.
I've seen both. So that's... here's the thing that's very different here's the thing though Kim was six Oh, okay, so literally not okay at all.
Not a teenager. Like, not that it's okay to punch a teenager in the face, but slapping?
I think, I'm sure many, I would, like you said, yeah.
I don't, I don't, I don't, I would not slap my child.
I don't, I don't have any need to, but no.
Definitely was slapped. But when I was being a bitchy teenager.
I could see slapping a teenager in the face.
100%. understand like that I understand totally right and I think other people have probably that's happened to them There's not one thing on this planet Earth that a six-year-old does that they deserve to be slapped in the face.
No, not at all. So that's strange. Now, from what I saw in every outlet I got this information from, Elizabeth called social services on herself.
Oh. Yes. Okay. And said this happened. Okay.
Which I'm like... That's weird. Wowzers.
Maybe she just like, maybe she just immediately was like, I need to get my shit together.
So you need to do something. That's very strange.
Well, Kim and Katie were taken away for a small... time.
That's sad. While they were like investigating this and doing the reporting and stuff it was six months that they were taken away.
That's a pretty long time. Yeah, and they were returned afterwards.
But in that time, they spent time in foster care for six months.
Yeah. So, I mean, they returned after the six months.
Graham said that... This was pretty much the point when, like, Kim and Elizabeth's relationship just shattered.
That makes sense. Which makes sense. Right.
But then you're wondering, like, what happened before this?
Because she slapped her in the face. So it's like they were obviously.
No, I want to know why. They were obviously not a close mother-daughter to begin with.
But I can't find anything about that. when it's like you have to wonder obviously Kim is like a sociopath so and like I'm not like we said it's not okay to hit a six-year-old but I wonder what happened to, like, not to make her get slapped, but do you know what I'm saying?
But, like, what led to that kind of, like... reaction of just normal behavior from a mother.
And I feel like the fact that she called on herself is even more telling because.
Yeah. It's almost like she broke for a second and then was like, oh, fuck, what did I do?
Exactly. That's what it seems to me. And I couldn't find... any information about like before this so yeah we're all just i mean we're just here to speculate about it but Either way, that's obviously a very worrisome thing.
Like, that's not good. Right. doesn't equal you should murder your mother when you're 14 but you know or or ever that's just something No, or ever, but... So, yeah, so this is... That was definitely a... a tipping point, I would say, probably within their relationship.
But after the whole social services thing, Elizabeth had moved them into a new home on Dawson Avenue.
And it was like a housing unit, like, you know, kind of like a almost like duplexes kind of thing, like big apartment buildings or condos kind of things.
Kim definitely still did not have a good relationship with her mom.
They were fighting a lot. She was very jealous of her sister Katie.
I had a feeling very jealous they fought all the time um and katie and her didn't fight all the time She took it out on her mom that they were close and she wasn't.
So she didn't take it out too much on Katie from what I could see.
Mm-hmm. And Katie was her younger sister only by a year.
They were essentially like Irish twins. Right.
And at the time, though, and this is from Kim...
Nobody else says this. Kim says that her mother would often tell her you're just like your father who had abandoned them when she was young.
And who had like abused drugs and was violent. it was bad.
And Kim and Katie, for that matter, but mostly Kim, had seen violence when she was younger between her father.
Yeah. Her father did abuse her mother. Well, and I'm sure she harbored a lot of resentment toward her father, and to be told that you're like the parent that you resent sucked.
Yeah, that's got to be hugely triggering.
But that's also from Kim. who is a lying sociopath.
And we'll see she's... Very unemotional and very disconnected from reality.
Most likely trying to justify her actions.
Yeah. And, you know, Kim said she felt like, you know, the black sheep.
She said Katie got all the attention. And she said in one of the interviews later, Kim does say, you know, we just didn't get along me and my mom from when I was younger. and she says you know she clearly loved my sister more favorited my sister more And they're like, okay, did she tell you that?
Right. And she was like, no, she never came out and said it, but I just knew it.
Okay. So it's like... You know, it seems like a sibling rivalry thing.
Yeah. She's just being like, yeah, of course she didn't say it, but like...
I just know it. Well, you do know who the parent's favorite is.
So, of course, the partner Graham says there was never any favoritism. between them.
Again, he just says they had different relationships.
Okay. And Kim just didn't like hers with her mother.
She just wasn't happy with it and she didn't know how to change it.
So Lucas Markham, the boyfriend. Was actually born Stan Lucas Markham.
He was born August 1st, 2001. This is really triggering.
And was born in Peterborough. Peterborough.
Peterborough. That's it. Peterborough. I did it.
Peanut butter. High fives to all my UK listeners.
High fives. All right. I did it. Watch, I probably got it wrong and they're going to be like, honey, put your hand down.
Peterborough. So he grew up also in an abusive home.
Well, you said he had lived with his aunt, so I wondered what the story was.
Yeah. So when he was four years old, his mother died of leukemia.
Oh, that's horrible. So that's huge. My kids are four.
That's a big... blow like yeah you know you know your mom at that point bonded a lot very connected at that point His father was abusive and alcoholic.
He wasn't a good guy. So he immediately was in and out of foster care.
Like his dad just didn't want to take care of it.
His aunt finally took him in for good, became his guardian.
Yeah. So he had a lot of troubled stuff and we're going to talk a little bit more about him and his way of exist like we're going to talk about how kim and him were as teenagers soon But we want to know how these two met.
How did they come together? history class.
Yeah. Almost. One day in eighth grade. Yes.
Lucas threw a chair across the room in English class in a fit of rage.
Oh. And Kim was in that class and she was like...
That's my man. Oh, normally I was like, let's not sit near that guy at lunch.
No, she was like, fuck me up. That's him.
That's my guy. Wow. Okay. Different strokes for different folks.
He was a known asshole. He was known to be very aggressive, just very...
Very unpredictable. Some people are really into that.
She was into it. Okay. He was angry, he was detached, and...
The only thing that made him attached to anything was Kim.
Kim showed that she was interested and he was like, whoa you're mine too so they immediately it's like all her her issues that she's bringing to the table and all his issues that he's bringing to the table, they just met each other and were like, whoosh and just formed this they found what they thought they were missing in each other Exactly.
This fucked up bond that they are just going to become way too attached to each other.
It's never good to only have your partner.
And it becomes a Bonnie and Clyde, else against the world, you know, ending in a blaze of glory.
Yeah, it's just it's. never good and they think they get each other because of their like trauma and like nobody else does yeah no one gets us Now, according to court documents, they were also obsessed with talking about suicide And it mentions that they did this often with one other girl, but she isn't named in the court documents.
Interesting. They had a super obviously toxic and very codependent relationship with each other right off the bat.
Again, they're only 14. Right. So already having two... attached of a relationship is not a good thing at that age because you're like, okay, calm down.
Yeah. But having the kind of toxic codependent just like us against the world kind of relationship at 14 just is no good.
No. And obviously no one was happy with that around them.
They were often later compared to Myra Hensley and Ian Brady.
Okay. Because apart, sure, they were... you know they had some fucked up shit going on they both came from kind of like crazy upbringings But it was together that they became lethal.
Okay. Like Myra Hendley and Ian Brady. It's just like... Apart, they were fucked up.
And sure, they probably weren't people you wanted to, like, be in a dark alley with. found each other is when it was like the explosion or the spark.
Yes. Everyone I saw said that apart, if they had never got together, they don't think this would have happened.
They don't think that the mother would have been murdered.
They do not think that the sister would have been murdered.
This could have been avoided if they weren't together.
Okay. So that's not good. No. Now, Lucas was... He had a tough go...
I mean, right off the bat and then all the way through.
That's sad. He was bullied constantly. Aw.
That's never okay. Yeah. And then she started getting bullied because she was dating him.
Okay. So it further cemented their us against the world.
No one gets us. I just don't understand bullying.
No. I don't get it. I'll never get it. I really won't.
But... friends said they that they were creeped out with how attached and close they were like they were like well when you're 14 too you're like okay Like what?
Like calm down. Want to come over for a sleepover and like not hang out with your boyfriend?
Yeah, like please. And Lucas was always at the Edwards house, but it wasn't like he was this welcome presence at the Edwards house.
Right. Graham said he immediately didn't like Lucas as soon as he met him.
Well, you get a vibe. He said he had a super attitude. way too full of himself.
He was quiet and arrogant and just shitty to everybody.
I'd be like, get out of my house, you 14-year-old fuckface.
Well, and Graham also said he wore the same clothes all the time and never washed.
That's disgusting. So he was like, yeah, you're gross.
Please leave. Now, according to court documents, he was also violent and aggressive all the time.
Mm-hmm. I don't know if you could tell by him throwing a chair across the English class.
It's a good indicator. He would punch and headbutt walls and doors at home.
That's sad. Like headbutting? Yeah, he had a lot of outbursts.
That sounds like... Like something that hasn't been diagnosed.
Do you know what I mean? But... They did do a psychological assessment of him later.
And he's fine? Yeah. wow um there were also a ton of physical fights between him and his younger brother um And his poor aunt was trying to get help for him, and she was like, I have no idea what to do.
She would call the police and be like, help me.
She just didn't know what to do. That poor woman.
He would also self-harm a lot. Kim also was known to self-harm.
It seems to me like there's just so much going on.
I think there was a lot that was... that was happening when they were born and then I think nurture took over from there.
This is very sad. This is a nature and nurture case for sure.
So Lucas also definitely had an abandonment issue.
Like that was clear that he, because his mother had died when he was four, his father had abandoned him and he was shoved into foster care.
And foster care, you get attached, then you have to go and then you get attached and you have to go.
Exactly. So he already has this crazy control issue.
Yeah. And he was known to become most violent and physically and verbally aggressive.
If that was like threatened. When he loses any self confidence. sense of control or when he was criticized at all, and especially if he was criticized by an adult or someone in authority.
That stems from all of that. Yeah. It's a total abandonment issue.
Right. Now, by summer 2015, Lucas was getting in a ton of trouble at school because, again, He threw a chair across an English class.
God only knows what else he was doing in all the other classes.
He ended up being put in this like special pod. for like troubled teens oh shit um and it was like they would all just be in this one class Elizabeth was not into Lucas either.
She did not like him dating her daughter.
She was very worried. She's like, Kim already has an attitude problem.
Like, this is the last thing she needs, I bet.
Yeah, she was like, he's a really bad influence on her.
And then she could see how close they were. and how obsessive they were and they were already in a sexual relationship and she found that out and she was freaking out. yeah she's 14 years old of course any parents gonna be like ah yeah help So Elizabeth finally in 2015 banned him from coming over.
He could not come to the house. Now Kim and Lucas, in response to this, ran away together. and they lived in a tent in the woods for six days wow i mean impressive no one knew where they were Like, they just, they took clothes and food and all that stuff and they just took off.
Lived in this tent in the woods for six days.
And apparently they were finally found after the six days by people who recognized them when they went into town. okay like hey you have to go home and they brought them home uh apparently at school everybody found out about this and they thought it was hilarious like because they were Just a joke.
That's really sad. They were sent back to their homes and Elizabeth referred to them at this time as a ticking time bomb waiting to go off like so she knew she was like something bad is happening right Because if my 14 year old ran away with her fucking crazy boyfriend and they were both already showing these signs.
Right. ran away and lived in a tent in the woods for six days, I'd be like, oh, yeah.
Well, imagine as a... Because what are you supposed to do?
Like, what do you do? What are your options?
Right. Like, she's already showed you that... you can't really do anything.
No. It's like you ban this kid from your house and they run away together.
So, right. Like, what option is there? Like, honestly, at this point, I'd be like, well, we have to move. put you in prison in my own house and you don't get to leave.
Like, I don't even know what you would do.
But even... Jasmine Richardson's parents did that, remember?
And he would like sneak in. And look what happened.
Yeah, same thing happened. That's why these cases scare the shit out of you.
I was gonna say. Because the helplessness that comes along with this and I just I was looking at this case and then this morning I woke up and like the girls came like bouncing down the stairs.
And I was like, please love me forever. I was like, please don't bring home a Lucas or a Jeremy, please.
No. I swear, no offense to any Lucas or Jeremy listening, but I swear if one of them brings home one of the names of that, I'm going to be like, no, no, not OK.
Sorry. Sorry. We have a strict policy in this house. and i will have a bone saw at home and i'll be like this is what will happen to you buddy I'm going to be a scary-ass mom.
Oh, man. So, yeah. So now it's... ticking time bomb, shit's going down.
Right. So after this is when Kim really amped up the self-harming.
That's sad. It's all sad. This whole thing is very sad.
Do you know if she was put in therapy or anything like that?
They definitely tried. She was assessed by different psychologists.
A lot of different psychologists said... she's just an angry kid.
And they were like, and this does stem from, you know, her father left when you were young.
There was an abuse in the house. you know, she was part of the abuse in the house at a time.
This is all just... pretty par for the course.
Like, she's not being... And I think they were also... I think part of the problem here was...
She wasn't, I don't think she was, it's hard to explain, like, because this is no one's fault, you know what I mean?
Like, it's just all a culmination of shit.
And it's obviously Kim and Lucas's fault at the end of the day.
But I mean like creating this is a different thing.
But I think she just wasn't... She needed a little more than she was getting.
It's again... the parent and the child are not always the right fit for each other.
Exactly, and I don't think she was just not getting...
And I hope nobody thinks I'm saying that in a way where it's like it's the mom's fault. no I mean it is her fault that she killed her mom but in like it's not her fault before that Yeah, it's hard to explain.
It's hard to put into words. At the end of the day, Kim is to blame here.
She's a fucking murderer. So is Lucas. Right.
Bada boop. But we all we like to look at how these things form, you know, especially when it has to do with a child and a mother.
Parent and kid relationships are always interesting to me.
Yeah, you have to look at it. deeper and I think what was happening was Kim obviously had all those background things and And she needed something that she wasn't getting psychologically, I think.
I think she needed some deeper... some deeper look at her psyche a little bit.
Maybe she didn't even know what she needed.
And to be honest, with the way you hear her talk about it later, it might not have helped.
To be quite honest, because she's very detached from this whole and from emotions.
Sometimes they're just born that way. Sometimes you are just a sociopath and that's the way it is.
But put that on a shirt. Sometimes you're just a sociopath and that's the way it is.
TM's. Small, small writing. Small font.
Yeah, you know. So after this, in 2016...
Kim did confide in a teacher that she felt close to.
She wrote this teacher a letter. And it said, I have tried to remain strong but I can't fight anymore.
Now I feel that death is the only way. Oh, can you imagine being the poor teacher that gets that?
Yes. Well, and this teacher did the right thing.
They referred her to a mental health service for youths at the time.
She was seen and she was released. They did not think anything was concerning.
Okay. So in March 2016, Lucas was expelled from school.
Oh, shit. and was sent to another school which was an hour and a half away.
So Kim and he could not see each other at school during the day anymore.
So that was not good. Obviously, she became depressed, he was upset, they could only see each other at night and they couldn't see each other at Kim's house, so it was becoming The world is pulling us apart.
Right. What do we do? How do we fight against this?
We break up. We go our separate ways. The end. nope so she did attempt suicide by taking an overdose of pills oh that's sad People at the school, according to some of the people that were interviewed, kids at the school were joking about this.
Yeah, because kids are fucking horrible.
Kids are dicks. I remember like things like this happen.
Not completely like the same, but I remember like things like that happened.
Like heavy things happening. And kids are just like, oh, like that girl's a weirdo.
Like she tried to kill herself. Yeah. It's like, yeah, that's fucked up.
They don't understand the gravity of what it is.
Because your frontal lobe hasn't developed and you're a shithead.
Especially 8th grade, 9th, your children.
I feel like that's when a lot of people... have these problems it's like eighth grade because it's it's a hard age it is yeah that's a really hard time to i mean I'm sure everybody can agree, unless you're one of those magical uniforms that were like, junior high was the best for me.
Yeah. It's a tough time. It is. There's a lot going on because it's like puberty is happening.
Lots of like coming of age things are happening.
It's just too much. It's a lot to deal with.
Yeah. Obviously that is. And everybody has a different home life.
It's like. Yeah. So I feel like a lot of that stuff happens and kids never know how to deal with it.
So they just like make a joke. So kids are fucked.
Moral of that story. So once she was released from the hospital, again, everybody's trying to break these two up.
Mm-hmm. They're trying to keep them apart, but they are just refusing to part ways.
Mm hmm. april 3rd she this is interesting she posted on facebook april 3rd and it was like tb2 this moody angsty photo it's like black and white and it's her just like looking moodily at the camera with no smile.
Ended it on picnic app. Yeah, and she has glasses on.
It's in black and white. And her mother, Elizabeth, commented on the photo.
I used to fucking hate when my mom would comment on my fucking Facebook things.
Wow. Okay. I get so mad. Hello, I'm 430 years old, so I didn't have to deal with that.
I'm very happy about it. It's the worst.
I'm like, whoa. uh now this is april 3rd this is days before these murders happen like a couple weeks what does she comment So she comments, where's your beautiful smile?
And Kim responds, it disappeared. And her mother says, why, hon?
And she responds, I don't know. And then she follows it by emojis of a panda, a bear, a unicorn, a cookie, a smiley face with glasses, another smiley face, and then an upside-down on smiley face.
Okay. And I was like, I'm trying to decipher that.
So like all her recent emojis probably, I guess?
Well, and her mother says, I think it's under your bed, LOL.
Oh, she's like, I'm trying to get you and I don't.
Well, then Kim responds with like this cute little picture of like a cartoon dog sleeping in bed.
Like a little gif. And this is like a few days before she brutally murders her mother.
And then her mom responds with like another cartoon in bed.
Like they had a funny So they obviously didn't have, like...
So it seems like... I don't know. It seems like her mother was trying.
And I think it just was too... It was far gone.
So April 9th, she stayed at Lucas's house against her.
Her mother had told her no, and she stayed there anyway.
Uh-huh. So she came home the next day and found that her mother had put all her stuff into bags and given it to her younger sister, Katie.
That's a weird punishment. And had gotten rid of, like, put other stuff in bags as, like, a punishment.
Like, I'm emptying out your room. Okay. So from the court documents directly, it says, Doubtless because of their unhappiness together, the two had previously run away from home, They were found some miles away and then returned to their families.
This is talking about the 10th thing. Yep, yep.
Over the weekend before the killings, they barricaded themselves in Lucas Markham's room before leaving through a window. returning to Kim Edwards' home in order to collect her contraceptives.
When they returned, Lucas Markham was rugby tackled and restrained by his family. and Kim Edwards was returned to her home where she found her mother had moved her belongings from the room she shared with her younger sister.
Lucas Markham's room had been cleared out by his family as well.
Okay. So I think what had happened here, and again, I'm not saying anybody is right or wrong here, like, in the sense of parenting.
Just assessing the situation. Right in this situation.
Lucas's aunt and family were like... We're done.
We're done. Like you, I'm sure you reach a point where you're like, I don't know what to fucking do with this kid.
I don't know what to do. That's like when I wouldn't clean my room and Papa would put all my stuff in trash bags and leave it in my room and be like, oh, yeah, clean it up.
My parents, my dad was always like, I will give you a couple of shots to clean that room.
And he always gave like, I always got a lot of shots.
He gave a lot of shots, but he would tell me.
You have a day. I will throw all of your stuff in this room into the backyard.
And you will have to pick it all up. He never threw my stuff in the backyard, but I came home from school one day and all my stuff was in trash bags and I was livid.
But I bet you kept it clean. Oh, yeah. I kept it real clean.
And he actually did. Actually, he did it to my older sister.
My mom. Yeah. I remember one day, because they were horrible with keeping their room clean, they were filthy pigs.
And my dad literally took everything in her room and threw it out the back window onto the back lot.
And he was like, well, I guess you'll keep it clean from there because my parents were not like screamers or... No. hit hitters or anything like that they did shit like that that you were like oh shit I feel like that's better I think it's great.
I think you learn more from it. Yeah, because it doesn't hurt anybody.
It's just like. It just pisses you off and it pisses you off, but you still have to, you got to get your stuff back. out of the bags.
It's a big inconvenience too. That's what it is.
So you won't do it again. So I think Lucas's aunt and his family were like Let's just empty out his fucking room because if they're gonna hole up in there and barricade themselves in his room, like, Fuck you, man.
This isn't my house. This isn't your room.
Right. Like, I'm going to empty it out. Now you can have an empty cell.
And I think her mom was doing the same thing.
She was like, you know what? There goes all your stuff if you're not going to listen to me and you two are just going to continue this shit.
So it's like you understand that. But I wonder if they talked to each other, like the aunt and the mom.
They might have. I wonder. Yeah. They might have.
Like made a plan. Yeah, they might have.
Well. This was the moment that they both were like, we're going to kill Elizabeth and Katie now.
Yeah. Why did they, why did Katie, and also it's weird to me that they didn't, like, I'm happy they didn't kill the aunt, but like.
Why is it her family? Because the aunt was not what they felt was that Elizabeth was more involved with trying to keep them apart than the aunt was.
And was Katie just like... Collateral. Well, we'll find that out.
But one of the other things on top of it was that.
Kim uses the my sister is the favorite. okay okay and that's the other thing so she she wants to kill her mom for not giving her the attention she gives katie and then katie's gotta go because she's the uh Object of the attention.
So in the days leading up to the murder now, they were planning it thoroughly.
Mm-hmm. They cannot use this whole like, we just decided to do it.
No, they sat and planned this. Oh, God. They sat in a McDonald's and, you know, ate Happy Meals and talked about it.
Stop ruining fast food restaurants for me.
They took romantic walks and talked about it.
They had it totally planned. So initially, they planned for him to take four knives out of his aunt's home.
Jesus. Walk to the Edwards home, which is about three quarters of a mile away.
Oh, not far at all. It was going to be in the middle of the night.
Kim was going to let him in through a window.
He was going to tap three times, and that's how she would know.
That's cute. And then they were, and what they initially planned was that Lucas was going to kill a Elizabeth and Kim was going to kill Katie.
That was their plan. Now, they tried this two times on April 11th and April 12th.
But each time he would come and knock and Kim had fallen asleep.
Now... Wow. I'm glad. Everybody... Hear this again.
They had planned to kill her mother and her sister, and on the nights they had this planned, She fell asleep twice.
She fell asleep. So it didn't mean anything.
Would you fall asleep knowing that you were about to kill your mother and your sister with butcher knives in your home?
With your boyfriend? No. That to me is like... Disconnected out of reality.
Bitch is on a different planet. Like, a different wavelength completely.
She's not even here with us. Like, this is...
This is so evil. It's like... Well, she was in Kim's world.
She wasn't... You know what I mean? Well, that's...
One of the things that is a really strong thread through this is that Kim is very egotistical and very entitled.
Yeah. You can tell. She wants to be in a relationship with Lucas.
She wants it how she wants it. She wants to have sex. with him and no one tell her anything about it she wants to do this she wants her mother to treat her this way she wants all the attention she's not getting it and she's pissed about it right and that's that's what this is about she's 14 so already you're pretty entitled when you're 14 and then obviously there's a lot more that goes into it with her she's so fucking relaxed on those two nights that she just dozes into dreamland that's banana So finally on April 13th, they try for the third and final time.
She like got a coffee that day. Apparently.
So Lucas took four knives from his aunt's house, walked that three-quarters of a mile to their house.
He had... a long time to think about it.
They've had three different tries to reconsider this.
Um, he took a sh- he went under like in the darkest paths he could go so no one would see him.
He hopped a back wall in the back garden and then he went to the window and he tapped on the window three times.
Okay. Now, Kim let him in through the window.
Yeah. And the way Lucas described it later was...
She looks out the window. She sees me there.
She waves. I put my thumbs up and she goes to the bathroom window.
She opens the bathroom window, I pass my bag through and then I go through.
And then she opens my bag, I take a knife out and pass her a knife.
She HOLDED the knife. She HOLDED the knife.
Sure did. She HOLDED that knife. So she HOLDED the knife, but never USED the knife.
Then I went into her mom's room and stabbed her in the neck while she was asleep on her side and then smothered her face with a pillow.
Oh, God. And he says this like he is telling you a grocery list.
He's like, and then I went on the potato aisle and I got potatoes because, you know, there's a potato aisle.
Obviously, a potato aisle. Domesticity. He's like, yeah, I just, you know, and then I went and they didn't have my favorite chips.
So I went and got different chips. It's literally that chill.
But I decided I needed some ginger. And he's like, so she was asleep on her side and I smothered her face with a pillow.
The end. I hope... At least that she didn't suffer like the two of them?
Yeah, they both did. Oh thanks for that.
You're welcome. He used an 8 inch butcher knife to do it.
Elizabeth was stabbed eight times, including five times in her hands as she tried to defend herself. one of the two blows to her neck almost completely cut through her windpipe oh god They intentionally cut the throats to stop them from crying out, they later said.
They had planned that. That is dark. They both said, well, the voice box is there.
So we figured we would cut that off right away so they couldn't cry.
That's your mother and your sister. Yeah, like they are supremely evil. less than like animals like less than i mean like an ant you would step on on the sidewalk oh my god Oh, okay.
And so she went into the room to check to see if Lucas was okay.
That's how she puts it. She says, quote, he was on top of her with a pillow over her head.
I thought I heard her say, get off me. After about 10 minutes of Lucas putting her weight on her, she was dead.
Now, he says she says 10 minutes. She's a fucking idiot because it wasn't 10 minutes.
It doesn't take 10 minutes to smother someone. one right and lucas says it was barely three minutes i was gonna have to do it but she's like 10 full minutes i'm like do you know what time is Kim.
Maybe time is different in Kim world. Everything's different in Kim world.
Yeah. But she says, and she says she heard these noises and went in there desperately to check on Lucas.
Not to check on... That's fucked up. Because she worried about her mother at all, obviously.
But, like, for her to say, like, I wanted to check on him...
Like what? That's insane. As he murders your mother, like you're hearing noises and you're like, I hope he's okay.
Right. So she says, and this is tough, this part.
She says... Just so you know. So Kim says...
All I could see was her shoulder and arms.
She was struggling. She reached out her hand, so I grabbed it and kind of held it.
As I realized it was her hand, I instantly pulled my hand back.
Oh my god! So she meant to grab Lucas's hand, but her poor mother... as she was dying, reached out to her to hold her hand and she grabbed it unknowingly.
When she realized she grabbed it, she pulled away in disgust.
So her mother is dying and being murdered brutally by this little fucking asshole.
And she pulls her hand away and is like, oh, I thought that was Lucas's.
What, like, what happened in your fucking brain?
Like, what happened to your brain? There is just nothing there.
That is... That is like darker than dark.
And they say later, I mean, they've come to the conclusion where they're like they don't think she can be rehabilitated.
No. She's far gone. This is not one of those things where it's like...
Maybe she'll learn the error of her ways.
Like how they let Jasmine Richardson out.
I don't think they should have even done that.
No, they absolutely shouldn't have. That made me feel.
Yeah, that part really hurt my heart. But Lucas checked her pulse and confirmed she was dead.
So next in their minds. And then Katie. Now, originally, like I said, she was supposed to kill Katie.
Right. But she said she couldn't do it. She couldn't mentally get herself to do it.
So Lucas was like, well, I'll do it. He says, I went into Katie's room, which is the same as Kim's.
I thought I stabbed her, but I'm not 100% sure if it was like her or the mattress.
Oh my God. And then I smothered her face with a pillow too.
Then Kim asked him, did she struggle? And he said, no.
And he said, is she dead? And he said, yes.
And then he said, then she sort of said, take off your clothes because they're covered in blood, so I did.
And then we ran a bath and had a bath together because we were both kind of dirty. because she helped take the blood off my face and shirt.
So they had a bath like basically across the hall from her dead mother and sister.
Just had a nice romantic bath together. Okay.
Yeah. They actually had a blood bath. They literally had a blood bath.
That's fucked. He also said he was kind of bummed because he said he was planning to wear that shirt again. that you know he didn't wash so but he was pissed that it had blood on it Like that's what he was thinking of.
I'm surprised he didn't just wear it anyway.
And that he was planning to wear that shirt again.
He was like, you know, I'd like to wear this and just go to school in this shirt. like what so one of the other grisly details of this is that um Lucas said when he slashed Katie's throat, she said, I can't.
And then couldn't finish saying breathe.
And Kim said she heard this. She said she described it as, quote, a scary voice, which was, quote, all croaky.
And she just says it like it was weird and scary and croaky.
As your little sister is being murdered by your boyfriend?
She doesn't think of these people as like her mother and her little sister.
Like she just thinks of them as like in the way of her and Lucas.
So, like we said, they took the bath together.
And then Kim dragged the mattress from her sister's room, her own mattress.
I was going to say the one that she just killed her sister on.
No, but it was from the same room. Right, right.
So she grabbed the mattress right next to her where her sister lay brutally butchered right next to her.
Blood everywhere. I was going to say, you don't just easily take a mattress out of a room like they were in there for a bit. she dragged it out of the room she brought it downstairs to the living room they had sex I knew that was coming.
Then they watched TV together while eating ice cream snuggled under a blanket on the mattress. for three days drank alcohol from the cabinet and um right after this happened so they had sex they got some ice cream Then they watched all four Twilights.
That's why this is called the Twilight Zone.
This is why this is called the Twilight murder.
And honestly, I get it because that is so shocking.
Like what? You watched all four Twilights? first of all you just murdered two people your mother and your sister and two You watched all four Twilight's?
Actually, wait, isn't there five Twilight's?
I don't know. They watched four of them.
Wow. Like, fuck. Because there's the regular one, then there's New Moon, then there's Eclipse.
Yeah, there's five because there's Breaking Dawn part one and two.
Well, I guess they only watched, maybe they watched part one and two as one.
I'm glad that they didn't get to watch part five.
There you go. Or maybe they watched Breaking Dawn 1 and 2 together.
Maybe. Whatever. I'm pissed. Either way, they sat and watched the Twilight movies, which I'm sure they considered themselves like Edward and Bella.
You know that. Except that they didn't kill their parents.
No, but they were, you know. What? Like. like we just love each other no one wants us to be together and we have to do what we have to do That's a lot.
Yeah. So Twilight Murders. A lot to unpack there.
So they had planned initially. to complete suicide together after this, but they didn't do it, obviously.
They wrote a suicide note entitled, Fuck You World, and it said...
Fuck you, world. How angsty. And it also said, I want to be cremated and I want mine and Lucas's ashes scattered at a special place.
We don't give a... You think... Oh, you caught me before I was finished.
I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I just got so mad.
I'm sorry. It says, I want to be cremated and I want mine and Lucas's ashes scattered at our special place.
We don't give a fuck anymore. Okay. Can I go now?
You think that we're going to just scatter your ashes in a special fucking place?
Yeah, because you know what? Ted Bundy's ashes were scattered where he put his victims.
What? You didn't know that? No. I thought I said that in the episode.
I don't think so. I'm pretty sure I did.
I mean, it was a long time ago. We all know how my memory works.
As his final fuck you to his victims where he used to put all like his little garden of like... skulls that he would come up there and like who did that and shit they have to the law i'd lie i'd break the law for that somebody he was scattered She's a mostly law-abiding citizen, but she'd break the law for that.
She says about herself. Well, and don't worry, because they weren't actually planning on killing themselves.
Obviously not. They did that as a, you know...
I think that was like their contingency plan, basically.
So like I said, when police showed up, they're sitting together under a blanket on that mattress, eating ice cream, super nonchalant.
Why don't you go upstairs and see? That's the scariest part to me of this whole thing.
Oh, yeah. It's terrifying. So let's hammer in what they had done and what they were sitting with. in the house for 36 hours.
So the pathologist. The pathologist said that Elizabeth, again, was stabbed eight times, five in the hands when she tried to fight him off.
There was one located to her right shoulder, two to her neck.
The stab wounds to the neck had resulted in severing her internal jugular veins.
One had almost completely severed her windpipe. and the cause of death was stab wounds to the neck and the injuries were not instantly fatal.
Oh no. There was evidence that she survived for at least a short time as they were being inflicted in a little bit after.
The degree of force used was, they said, pretty moderate because the tracks of the wounds had not passed through any bone tissue.
Okay, so to the body of 13-year-old Katie, he said there were two stab wounds to the neck.
One had entered the left side, resulting in a small defect within the right vertical artery.
This caused a moderate amount of bleeding, but not enough volume of bleeding to have really like... messed with her cerebral blood flow to really be like the absolute cause of death.
Her body was found with a pillow over her face and they examined her lungs and they said that she'd probably died. from a hemorrhage from a stab wound to the neck and also smothering.
Oh, my God. There was an injury to one of her vertebrae, which... suggests that there was severe force with the stab to go all the way through to her vertebrae right Initially, Lucas would not speak to this police when he was arrested.
He was like, nope, not saying a thing. But Kim was just like...
Sit down and let me tell you what happened from the beginning.
Because she probably thought that she was, like, cool.
Well, she just didn't care. Right. It wasn't even, I'm cool.
It's like, I literally just don't care. So here's the story.
That's insane. They said she had zero remorse, like none.
And when they even asked her, she was like, no, I don't care.
I always am like, imagine, but imagine being the investigator that had to talk to her.
No. No. I'd be like, I don't want to be in the same room as you.
Can we do this through a double sided mirror?
Yeah, I don't want to do this. Well, because they were both 14, the media couldn't name them initially when they arrested, you know, because of age.
It was seven months until the trial happened.
The town was freaking out. There were rumors starting about who the hell it could have been.
Obviously, people were already being like, it was probably her daughter and the boyfriend.
Right. They were finally named in June 2017 when the reporting restriction was lifted.
This is when people start remembering all these red flags that they're like, huh.
Duh. So people said Lucas was obsessed with this case that had happened.
10 months earlier than the murders of Elizabeth and Katie.
And it had happened very close by. And it was a 42-year-old man, Warren Free, who was their friend Adam's father.
Oh, and he had been attacked by local teens and killed.
Jesus, what's up with the teenagers in this place?
Yes, it was 3 a.m. and some teens were destroying his fence.
So he came out holding a metal pipe and was like, what the fuck, stop.
They attacked him and beat him with the pipe, killing him on his front porch.
Jesus. These kids got away with it. How?
They just couldn't be identified? Was that really loud?
Sorry. Ow! My bad. Yeah, I don't... Sorry if I just bursted your car speakers.
Yeah, I don't know how they got away with it, but Lucas... They just couldn't be identified, I guess.
Well, they were. They went to trial. I don't know how they got off somehow.
But Lucas was very intrigued by this. Yeah.
And Adam said Lucas was initially trying to be like supportive of him and be like, oh, I'm really sorry that your dad got murdered on your porch.
But he was more concerned, it seemed, with how they got away with it and what had actually happened, like the grisly details he wanted.
He was already... Probably thinking about killing Elizabeth.
He was already in that like weird place.
So when police asked, how'd you come up with this plan to Lucas and Kim?
Kim told police, we just went on general knowledge, really, because the voice box, the stabbing in the throat and the baths, because of the dog, so she wouldn't smell the blood.
What? You left the room a bloody fucking mess.
What do you mean you took a bath because the dog would smell the blood?
That doesn't even make any sense. You left two fucking rooms full of blood, you dumbass.
Right. What? And she said, also, Lucas doesn't like the smell of blood.
How do you know? What? How do you know that?
Like what? How have you smelled that much blood that you know you don't like the smell?
Like you... I don't think anybody wants to smell blood, really.
I'm sure some people do, but I don't think that's something many of us think about.
No, like you've had enough around you that you've just sniffed it enough that you don't even actually like think of.
I have an opinion about that. I don't think I've been around enough blood to know what it smells like.
It definitely does. I don't know. I don't want to smell blood but like to have an opinion about it to the fact that like She's like, well, Lucas, I know for a fact.
That's one of his qualms. It's one of his weird neuroses that he doesn't like the smell of blood.
Yeah, strange. Okay, well, you know, she later told a psychiatrist, I wanted to get revenge for the way that my mother treated me.
She then said, I did not feel anything for my mother.
She deserved it, and I'm glad she's dead.
And then Lucas described that he said when him and Kim first got together, He said he felt wanted, he felt needed, and he said then I felt like I had to protect her from any perceived threat.
Okay. So when he committed the murders...
He said he was very calm. He felt very happy because he said he was protecting Kim.
Right. From the threat. Yeah, because her mom was so threatening.
Yeah. So Kim says after... about the whole thing, she says, we felt laid back about what had happened.
Neither one of us felt bad about it. She's just like, I don't give a shit.
That's insane to me. And the detective chief inspector, Martin Holvey, said, quote, The fact of what happened in those 36 hours after and how they carried on as normal, watching TV.
Watching a film, going upstairs to use the toilet while people are lying dead upstairs, it defies belief.
It does. And he said he didn't even have a precedent for this.
He was like, I've never seen anything like this.
Wow. They also considered it, more Kim considered it, that she was doing a favor. to her mother.
She said, quote, my mom doesn't have to deal with me anymore being like suicidal.
And she doesn't have to wake up worrying every morning to see if I'm still alive.
And then she said about Katie that she said she saved her from growing through, quote, the heartbreak and just all the emotions and stuff.
What a hero you are, girl. So she thinks she's...
She's doing everybody a favor. Like even now, she's like, no, I did the right thing.
It's like, okay, but you just get to... live the rest of your life obviously she's in jail but it's like yeah it's like that makes sense a lot Okay, Kim.
So they were both initially charged with murder.
And in the UK, anyone over the age of 10, you are criminally responsible for your actions. oh wow it's not like a minor thing where like you don't get murder because you're not 18 kind of thing 10 is very young Well, the defense tried to use mental instability, obviously.
They were gonna go for the insanity defense.
Mm-hmm. So they were looking to get manslaughter by way of diminished responsibility.
So a psychiatric report by Dr. Oliver White on August 15th, 2016.
This is from the court documents. said that Lucas Markham was not then suffering either from a severe or enduring mental illness. or from a depressive episode, although his mood instability was an important feature of his emerging personality structure.
He recounted the history of his experiences of domestic violence between his parents and the multiple different foster care placements which flowed from the breakdown of their relationship. culminating in his living with his aunt from the age of four or five, which was around the time his mother died of cancer.
He had a long-standing difficult relationship with his father, which appeared to have been highly influenced by his father's drinking, resulting in a lack of care, supervision, and nurturing to the children.
A consequence of his experiences during his childhood was that he had lacked the opportunity to develop skills in self-defense. regulation of his own emotions.
It was assessed that his specific emerging personality traits were in the domains of emotionally unstable and dissocial personality disorder, but Due to his age, he fell short of a formal diagnosis of personality disorder.
Okay. The doctor also said that Lucas Markham had a high risk of continuing his trajectory with regards to his personality development, such as that formal diagnosis of personality disorder, it was probably going to happen when he was an adult.
He was like, If we had let this go and this had never happened, he would definitely have been for me.
Because he's like crossing off all the things on the way.
Yeah. There was also another report on September 5th, 2016, and this was Dr. Tracy King, who's a psychologist.
They said there were no concerns regarding his intellectual functioning. such that might have led to a greater tendency to be influenced by others or to not understand the consequences of his actions. okay so they were like he knows what he did yeah um he also had a history of early childhood trauma They said the domestic violence, the father's drinking, that was an issue.
They said... These definitely, these experiences had shown to have organic neurochemical correlates in the brain.
There could be a gross alteration in the amygdala, the emotional center. in your brain, these would be evident in adulthood and would lead to emotional regulation difficulties.
They're saying he just does not know how to regulate his emotions.
His exposure to domestic violence and the fear that this would instill in a young child activated his primitive brain on a consistent fight or flight pathway.
So they were like, because he was exposed to this violence and fear when he was younger of people he was supposed to trust around him, It immediately activated that fight or flight.
Yeah. And he was just constantly in a state of fight or flight.
Right. Which brings you into this. And he leaned a lot more towards fight.
Exactly. Because it's like. Kind of had to from a young age, I guess.
He just kind of like is always in the state of like, somebody's going to hurt me, so I'm going to hurt people first kind of thing.
And it says, for him, this meant that minor threats and challenges could feel like a real threat to his existence.
Like... He took everything as primitive, like, I got to protect myself.
And they said, so he's going to act disproportionately to these things.
Right. Obviously. That's really interesting.
I liked that you went into that. Yeah, and they said he He's also, when threatened, he's also very likely to experience a much higher degree of dissociative symptoms than what would be normal.
Huh. So he will like just disassociate from like he's doing here.
He's just telling it like, yeah, this is what I did.
That's really interesting. Disassociates from it completely. right yeah so in the end even though they found all these things where they're saying you know the fight or flight response is constantly activated and you know when he's an adult he's probably going to be diagnosed with a personality disorder they said right now He doesn't actually have one.
He does not have an insanity defense. He is not insane.
He knows what he did. He's very aware. He's intellectually functioning.
Well, and even if you do have a personality disorder, that doesn't technically mean you're insane, right?
No, because it's technically not, you know, it doesn't...
Certain ones I'm sure can go with it, but what they're talking about doesn't seem to go with it.
And typically insanity is just a break in your sanity.
Yeah. Yeah, or like, you know, just some mental disorder that makes it so you can't understand the consequences of your actions.
They said he definitely does. So in the end they found that he was not going to get that defense.
They had to give it up. I think it was the day before his trial was set.
They were like, yeah, you can't use that defense now.
Oh shit. Imagine having, again, imagine having to scramble to what are we going to say now?
Exactly. So he was first going to plead guilty to manslaughter, but now they had to change it to pleading guilty to murder because he couldn't get manslaughter now.
Now, Kim was also going to use that insanity defense, and she was going to plead guilty to manslaughter.
Did it work for her? No. No. wow um the fact that she's not technically insane is terrifying no well because she understands the consequences it's so crazy like i fully believe she understands.
Oh I do too. I'm just saying like wow. So she shouldn't get it.
Because you don't want to give it to people who just seem insane.
You want to give it to somebody who literally is like, I don't understand what happened.
What I did, right? Like, wait, what? It's like a blackout.
Yeah. But she's like. I don't want to give it to her.
I'm just saying it's so crazy that she did all of this and was like, yep, I did that.
Yeah, it's insane. It truly is. Exactly.
But it's not. So Lucas forfeited his trial when he did his guilty plea.
So he was just guilty. Now it's on to Kim.
So Kim went to trial in October and at nottingham crown court and she pled not guilty to murder and she claimed mental illness Now, she said that it was the mixture of her mental health and Lucas being controlling And controlling her every move that made her do this.
Turning on each other right away. Exactly.
Turning on him. Because he didn't turn on her at all.
I was going to say. And in fact, it was released that she was very detached from Lucas almost immediately.
Well, because she probably has no actual attachment skill.
He did what she needed him to do. And now she's done.
Because she's only in, again, it's Kim's world.
Yeah. She used him for what she needed him for.
And he's gone now, out of sight, out of mind.
Yeah, and now he can deal with whatever he needs to deal with.
Wow. And it's like they were literally obsessed with each other to the point of murder, but after he did it, she was just unconcerned.
She said, you know, whatever guts he gets, I don't care.
That's insane. Like did not care. And all of a sudden she's sitting there saying he was controlling and shit.
It's like, what? Yeah. Not controlling enough for like you wanted to like run away with him and start your life together, but okay.
Yeah, she had no emotional response to his sentencing at all.
She didn't care. So she was assessed, and a consultant forensic psychiatrist named Philip Joseph was the one to get some crazy shit out of her.
So he said, I don't miss. She said, I don't miss my mom and I'm glad she's dead, even though I'm in a sticky situation now.
Oh, it's just a sticky situation. Yeah, she also said she deserved it I'm glad she's dead we felt laid back about what we had done neither one of us felt bad about it And she said, just the fact that it happened so quickly, that gave me peace of mind.
Because, you know, it wasn't like torture or anything.
Oh, okay. Yeah, so that's good. At least it wasn't torture.
In your mind. Yeah. She also said about her sister, she said she felt a bit sad about that.
A bit. Yeah, a bit. So his conclusion in his report, which was September 22nd, 2016.
So this girl is wildin'. He said she was not suffering from an abnormality of mental functioning caused by a recognized medical condition. and therefore she did not have a defense to murder or manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility.
He said the family dynamics were explored.
She had attachment difficulties with her mother.
And she explained the circumstances leading up to the killings of her mother and sister and said, yes, it was jointly planned and she was not forced to go along with it.
She said, he did not force me to do it. I wanted to plan this with him.
I wanted to do it like she was very forthcoming about that.
Because she just doesn't give a shit. She just doesn't give a shit.
And she said her mother was the main problem in her life.
And she said she felt excited about the thought of killing her.
And she remained glad after the fact that her mother was dead.
She felt nothing. Not a stitch of remorse.
And she said she did kind of feel a little bad about Katie.
Right. So she said she missed her a little bit.
Yeah. The doctor also said she did not accept or Dr.
Philip Joseph said he did not accept the loss of her belongings in that one situation where like everything was moving yeah everything was taken as the tipping point he did not accept that as like a trigger He was like, no, that happens to normal children.
We just said it happened to us. They get through it. they they get mad they move on like we cannot cause call this the tipping point because that shouldn't be a tipping point And a lot worse happens to people that don't kill their parents.
Exactly. He was like, nope. And he was like, she has an adjustment disorder for sure.
Like, this is not cause for what she did.
And they said... and they said right if she was suffering from full-blown adjustment disorder he said that she would not now continue to express satisfaction that her mother was dead.
He was like, this would change if she was suffering from that.
Okay. It's not. That's interesting. She's still sticking with this.
I did it. I'm happy I did it and she's dead and that's fine.
I feel nothing. That's so scary. And yeah, it's insane.
And then they had Dr. Liz Yardley is a criminologist and she really specializes in child killers.
She said the sibling rivalry thing that she was using that like, you know, Katie got more attention, all that.
That's why I killed my mom. She said, that's bullshit.
That's not a motive. She was like, no. Plenty of people have sibling rivalry and they don't kill people.
And she said it was just Kim's entitlement to do whatever she wanted, whenever she wanted.
And it's part of her psychopathy, essentially.
She was like, people think... It's really in Kim's head, the whole, like, my mom wants my sister better.
Because friends and family were like, no, she didn't. favorite one well and just i mean it's a very small thing but take that facebook post it's not like she didn't give a fuck about her exactly she didn't ignore her and then she was like and even in Graham said there was no favoritism I did not see it not that you know, of course he's going to say something nice, but it's like... Well, and if, I mean, even take the fact that they shared a room together.
It's not like Katie lived in this beautiful bedroom that Kim didn't have and Kim slept in the basement.
Exactly. It's like... So both doctors were like, no, that is not, no.
Right. a bullshit motive that she's using to try to look like this like oh poor me right and it's like the real thing here is is that she saw her mother as stopping her and Lucas from being together.
She was threatened. And it wasn't that she loved Lucas, because I don't think she has the capacity to love anything.
It's just what she wanted right then. She wanted it.
She wasn't getting it. And someone was telling her she couldn't have it.
And Lucas was... that person that was treating her like a princess and trying and holding her on a pedestal. and she wanted that so she was like don't take that away from me and then they later say i mean the police ask lucas straight up because again Kim is claiming, you know, Katie died because she was the cause of my... my mom not paying attention and what did lucas lucas says to the police they were like why did katie die and he was like well she would have called the police and they're like is that it and he goes pretty much So that proves that that motive of sibling rivalry is bullshit.
It has nothing to do with it. They killed Katie because she was a liability.
She was just in the house and they had to get rid of her.
But Kim is sitting here trying to turn it into something so she can be seen as a sympathetic character.
Right. When in reality, she wanted her mom dead.
That was the end of it. She wanted to kill her mom because she stood in her way.
Katie just happened to be there. Katie happened to be there.
I wish that Katie had been asleep over that night.
I know, I really do. And that Elizabeth was too.
I know. Seriously, I wish everybody was out of the house.
Two expert witnesses, those two ones were called to talk about mental... Kim's mental state.
And they, again, said... No. They said, yeah, she definitely has some kind of adjustment disorder, and she definitely has a severe attachment disorder.
They're like, and that... obviously stems from she's like not attached to anything yeah and they were like and this can stem from what happened in childhood I mean her father abandoned, she was in foster care, the thing with her mom, it's a lot.
Yeah. So they were like, for sure. But they were like...
It's not cause to give her the insanity defense.
So... They also said quote, she seemed to enjoy the attention that she was receiving from a number of professionals. and had suggested in the future writing a book about her life.
Okay. This suggested that she had an inappropriate level of self-esteem and self-importance. and also felt a sense of justification in the harm that she caused to her mother and sister, who she felt had wronged her.
So this proves too. Yeah. It had nothing to do with that shit. love with herself she is an entitled piece of she's probably a narcissist she's for sure a narcissist Narcissists are scary.
They are. So the jury took two hours of deliberation. and agreed that just because she had a shitty childhood does not mean you get diminished responsibility.
So a unanimous answer of guilty of murder.
Good. So they were together in court for their dual sentencing.
And the judge is a fucking legend with what he says.
Oh, yes. Hand it to me. I love good judges.
He said, quote, you were, in my view, in a hermetically sealed, pathetic world of your own of deep, deep selfishness and immaturity. where only your feelings and desires matter and no one else's.
And then he said, I sentence you as children, which you are.
I sentence based on hope for you and for society rather than an expectation of your failure shit but he's literally like so you were in this pathetic little world that you guys are fucking gross and you're And you know how 14-year-olds obviously hate being called children.
And he's like, yeah, you're children. You're fucking children.
So they were both sentenced to life in prison with a minimum of 20 years.
Good. May 2017, they both appealed, saying that their age should be considered in sentencing.
No. And it was reduced to life. Well, they still were life, but they had a minimum now of 17 and a half years.
Yes. What a reduction. That's not a lot.
And this was when their identities were officially made public in 2017.
Yeah. Elizabeth Edwards' partner, Graham, said that he saw Kim and Lucas as, quote, Another Myra Henley and Ian Brady.
And especially Kim, he said, is Myra Henley.
That's scary. But if you think about it, that is scary that they reduced it to 17 and such years because she would be in her early 30s.
Yeah. They should be young as fuck. Oh, absolutely.
And able to do this again. Yeah, it's not good at all.
But again, they could serve life. Again, yes.
And he also said, quote, she should never, ever be let out.
No. And that is... The end. That is where we stand.
I hope that they're never let out. there in prison, hopefully for life, but at a very minimum of 17 and a half years, they were sentenced in in 2017, so.
Hopefully they run out of appeals. I hope so.
I hope they don't get out, to be honest.
That's really scary. And that was the whole part about the hand was really sad.
It was so brutal. Her mom's hand. It was so brutal and then like just the callousness of them laying downstairs, having sex, watching Twilight, eating ice cream and just snuggling, going to sleep. at night on those mattresses with them dead upstairs.
For two nights, right? For two days. It's like, what the fuck is inside of you?
Nothing. It's brutal and they deserve what they got.
That is bleak. That is bleak. Orxenamine girls reference.
Very bleak. Yeah. I am shook. Well, if that's so bleak, now I'm really nervous because I don't know a lot about the...
Ian Brady and Myra Henley case. Yeah, that's going to be a doozy.
Just letting everybody know that is a...
Hoo boy. Am I going to, is it going to be like toolbox murders-esque or toy box murder?
In a different way. Where I want you to stop. in a different way.
Yeah, I don't like that. It has to do with children because we haven't done a lot of children Yeah, I hate it, but it's a very important case.
Right, that's the thing. And it's one that I know a lot of people have been dying to hear.
And I get it because before I had kids, I was obsessed with reading about that case.
I didn't like. love that they killed children.
Yeah, the psyche. Yeah, it was a little easier to stomach when I didn't have them of my own, but I feel like I consider your kids like my practice kids.
So they're like a portion of my kids. So kid shit just fucks me up no matter what.
Yeah, it's when you can relate a child you love to a kid.
You're like, oh. Yeah. Okay. Wow. All right.
Yeah. Well, that's next week. Stay tuned.
In the meantime, hit us with a follow on Instagram.
At morbid podcast. I forgot the next part.
Twitter. I know. You can always tweet at us at... Amorbid Podcast.
Send us a Gmail. morbidpodcast.gmail.com we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird but not somewhere that you throw a chair across the classroom and meet your like soul partner that's probably really not your soul partner you guys shouldn't have met each other at all don't meet that person that does that and don't to carry out these actions because they're not good.
They're not. I don't know. That wasn't my best, but bye.
Don't kill people. Don't do it. Bye. Bye.
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