Hey weirdos, Elena here. If you're looking to kick back and relax with Morbid, Wondery Plus is the way to go. it's like having a cozy seat in our haunted mansion no ads just you and early access to new episodes You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
You're listening to a Morbid Network podcast.
Listening on Audible helps your imagination soar.
Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, and new ways of thinking.
Listening can lead to positive changes in your mood, your habits, and ultimately your overall wellbeing.
Audible has an incredible selection of over 1 million audiobooks, podcasts, and Audible Originals all in one easy app.
Find the genres you love and discover new ones.
Explore bestsellers like my sister's title. new releases, plus thousands of included audiobooks, podcasts, and originals that members can listen to all they want with more added all the time.
I have been listening to the Martha's Vineyard Beach and Book Club, which actually Elena recommended to me.
She did not listen to it, but she said, girl, this title sounds so you.
And let me tell you, it did. I've been listening to it while I walk, and I am absolutely loving it.
I I love Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen.
Sign up for a free 30-day Audible trial and your first audiobook is free.
Visit audible.com slash morbid. Church's smokehouse chicken is back and the block already knows what's up.
The new smokehouse rub hits every piece of that juicy half chicken with bold smoky flavor that goes straight to the bone nobody else does it like churches our recipes served up just for you Get it in original or bring the heat with the spicy rub.
Dial it up Texas style with the honey butter biscuit and the spicy jalapeno pepper on the side.
The new dry rub has everybody talking. Lose yourself in the flavor of Smokehouse Chickens. starting at $5.99.
Order online or in-store, only at Church's.
Price and participation may vary. Tax extra U.S. only.
Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Alayna. And this is Morbid.
It's a Morbid. Mini, mini, mini, mini, mini morbid.
Mini morbid, mini morbid, mini morbid. I guess this is technically the mini, but we don't do, I mean, considering we just recorded your episode and it was two hours long.
This is the mini, but it's not a real mini.
But it's like a normal, because that's what we do now.
Because we just love this show. We just want to give you full-length episodes and call them minis.
Yeah, that's what we want to do. Because Elena's was so ridiculously long, that's so fucking good.
We decided not to do any bid-nests in the beginning.
Yeah, we just cut right to it. But because mine is like a little bit, a lot of it shorter than Alina's, we're going to do some bid-nests.
Let's do some bid now. So our shows. We're not going to be at the Punchline Comedy Club in Philadelphia on August 11th, but we will be there.
We will. We're going to be there. We're working on another date for that one.
So hang on to your tickets you already have.
We will have another date for you. Yes. Very unlikely that on September 16th we'll be at the DC Improv in Washington, D.C., but...
We'll work on it. We're all holding on to hope here.
It was looking a lot more likely a couple months ago.
Yeah, but then everybody just stopped doing what they were doing, I guess.
Wear your mask. September 23rd, we have two shows in Nashville at Zany's.
Yay, Zany's. September 24th, we have a show in Huntsville, Alabama at Stand Up Live.
Huntsville. Two shows October 11th at Talia Hall in Chicago.
Oh, everyone crossed their fingers that were there during spooky season.
And a lot of people have asked, just while we're speaking of October, if we're going to be at CrimeCon.
We are supposed to be there. Yeah, we're still planning on being there if...
If Florida gets its shit together, I'm going to be honest with you.
We're planning on being there, but if it's the same as it is now...
We probably won't be there. But as of right now, we will be there.
I'm watching very closely to see what that creepy shit does.
Well, and I'm wondering if it's going to get...
If it's even changed again. Right. Yeah.
They might change it again. Who knows? Because we don't know where we'll be in October.
But if it's still a thing, we'll see you there.
We will be there as long as you get your shit together, Florida.
November 10th, we're going to be at the Comedy Zone in Charlotte, North Carolina.
Shallot. Shallot. Jean Shalit. Jean Shalit.
And then November 11th, we're supposed to be at the Good Nights Comedy Club in Raleigh, North Carolina.
Raleigh. I really want to come to North Carolina.
As do I. January... I don't have it in front of me.
Is it the 27th? 27th. I knew it. 27th. January 27th, we're going to be in Greenwich Village, Colorado at Comedy Works South.
That one seems good. Yeah, I mean, that was just recently rescheduled.
If we're not good by January, I'm going somewhere else.
Yeah, I'm going somewhere else. I'm going to the moon, Alice.
I don't know. And then last, but absolutely not least, March 26, 2021, we will... fucking see you at the Wilbur Theater in Boston, because if it's not settled by March, I'm on my way to Mars.
That's right, and... Get your tickets for that show.
Go on the Wilbur.com website and get your tickets because we want to fill that place up with crazy weirdos. do it tickets get your tickets to the wilbur show getcha we want to be able to fill the place so we can come back so make sure you get your tickets for it because we will be there in march We will be there or we will be crying.
We will be very sad. Well, Oh, also everybody.
So we know that most of this time has been shitty lately because everything is going wrong in the world.
And with COVID, with everything else, it's just like a horrible time right now.
Sure is. So we wanted to put a smile on your faces.
We have a lot of exciting things coming up in July.
July is going to be a fun morbid month. Fun, morbid month.
The first two weeks of July, we have big announcements.
Yes. Big, big, big announcements. And then a few weeks into July, you're going to know that from your announcement that something exciting is going to be there.
It's true. You're gonna know. If that explanation didn't get you excited that something's gonna be there.
That very clear and concise explanation.
I mean, I don't know what more I could have said.
Basically, July is going to be really fun for morbid.
We're hoping it's going to be a really exciting, positive experience.
We have tons of fun stuff happening. And we can't wait to tell you.
With that being said, it's time to move on to this week's case, which is Ash-centric.
Also, this human being seemed like she was ash-centric, and I really wish that we could have been best friends.
I agree. I totally agree with that. This week, we're going to be talking about Marsha P. Johnson.
Ooh, let's do it. Now... I am so excited to talk about this.
Most of this is going to be about Marsha's life just because...
Marsha's death did happen, obviously. Yeah.
And, like, it's definitely a questionable death, but there's not a ton about it because... the investigation wasn't really a thing.
Yeah, weird. Because it was a time. It was a time.
Let's dive into this. Let's do it. Marsha P. Johnson was born on August 24, 1945, and she was born in Elizabeth, New Jersey.
Love that. So Marsha's name at birth was actually Malcolm Michaels Jr.'
's. As most of you know, Marsha was essentially the most iconic transgender woman of all time, basically.
Yes. So I think, isn't that called, like, a dead name?
Um, I'm not sure. I think it's called a dead name.
She would go by both, so I don't necessarily know if hers was like a dead name.
Oh, okay. But I have heard about it. I didn't know that, that she went by both.
Sometimes she would, like, dress as Malcolm and, like, people would refer to her as Malcolm.
Her family referred to her as Malcolm. Oh, that's cool.
Or Marsha. It was very, like... Back and forth.
Fluid. Yeah, fluid. Cool. So she was the most iconic transgender woman, the most iconic drag queen, the most iconic activist.
We're a big drag race podcast here, so we appreciate it.
Marsha was the fifth of seven children. Wow.
A lot of kids. That's a lot of kids. And according to blackpass.org, I got a ton of information from there. really cool website, blackpast.org.
I found out there that Marsha knew that she identified as a woman since she was like super young.
She started dressing up in girls' clothing around the age of five.
Wow. And it's like, when you know, you know.
Oh, yeah. Of course. Obviously, it was the 40s like or the late early 50s, excuse me.
And her parents weren't super stoked about that because that was just not a thing back then.
That makes me so sad. It is really sad. Her parents weren't happy about it.
And honestly, nobody was at all. Yeah, of course not.
She said herself. During that time. No, not at all.
She said herself that she stopped for a while because the boys next door used to, quote, get fresh with her.
That's what she said. That just makes me sad.
This is going to make you even sadder. She was sexually assaulted by one of those boys when she was about 12.
Let's punch them in the face. Let's punch all of them in the face.
And she says she didn't even know what sex was at that point.
No, you're 12. She was like, I was married.
Jesus, that's all I knew. That's all I knew.
Her interviews are fucking incredible. You're a baby.
Well, that's the thing. You just don't know.
And she's like, so she describes how it happens.
I'm not going to say how she says it, but she's just like, yeah, this happened.
And, you know. That's when I knew that that's how life worked.
And it's like, oh, okay. And so young to learn such a terrible lesson about how shitty people are.
Seriously. So she did manage to get by and survive and finish high school.
And after that, she was like, yeah, fuck this place.
I'm going to New York. Fuck this mess. Fuck the shit out of this.
She went to New York with $15 to her name and one bag of clothes.
That kind of shit is always... crazy to me especially back then too it's like holy shit because even today when people are like i moved to you know la or new york with like a hundred bucks in my bank account and that was it it's like well like but how though like where did you live how are you existing Well, Marsha was homeless, but this really this was the time in Marsha's life that was going to be like the catalyst to the rest of her life.
So she was homeless and she would sleep in the movie theater and she did work as a sex worker to make money.
A lot of people that knew Marsha, they say that they don't know how she got through this time, but that was the time that she met her people and, like, came into her own.
And like formed her family. And formed her family.
So it was like a scary time in her life and like a very unsure time, but it was also an amazing time in her life.
The time when she was forming, like, the foundation.
Exactly. So she was spending a lot of her time on Christopher Street.
Christopher Street in Greenwich. Is it Greenwich Village?
Greenwich Village. Greenwich Village in New York. place where a ton of members of the LGBTQ plus community would kind of congregate. and hang out, they do like voguing and stuff, like have tons of fun. they were just having a fucking time.
And they'd celebrate who they were together.
So that's where Marsha's place was. She really became, she, that's when she started performing as a queen, coming into her own.
Yeah. She said she never took drag seriously because she didn't have the money to.
She was like, I was just doing what I wanted to do.
Yeah, like I didn't have the money to actually like really make it like a career.
So she didn't have a lot of money. But the money that she did have, she spent it super wisely.
And she made these like amazing flower crowns, which she's always pictured in.
Oh, wow. She really is your, like, soul sister.
I was watching the documentary and I was, like, reading all these articles and I was, like, gonna cry.
And, like, I did actually cry because I was, like, I love you so much.
She just seemed like the shit. So she would weave these flower crowns into her hair and then she'd put on performances with these like gorgeous like flowers. and her outfits that she put together, which her outfits were not, like... they weren't anything like expensive or like super flashy, but the way she put them together, it was so awesome that it made her money.
Like that's how she made money. That's a skill it is.
Um, her personality was so kind and so sweet.
Everybody wanted to be around her. So that's how she really became who she was because- it's who she was like gathered all these people around her that were like you're the tits We love you.
You're the tits, Marsha. You're the tits, Marsh.
She had people around her all the time, and literally, like, not one person had anything bad to say about her.
Ugh. Which is like, I feel like that's always the case.
Which makes it so much harder knowing how this ends.
Right. You know that person in your life who just can't stand mayo?
Call them traumatized. Call them closed-minded.
We get it. They're stuck in their ways. But here's the thing.
They just haven't tried Hellman's flavored mayo.
We're talking bold flavors that will flip even the biggest skeptics.
Spicy mayo that adds the perfect kick to your burger.
Garlic aioli that transforms ordinary fries into something extraordinary.
Chipotle mayo that turns your basic wrap into a smoky sensation.
So to all the mayo haters out there, Yes, we're looking at you.
It's time to eat your words. Because with mayo this flavorful, any hater is just a mayo lover waiting to be convinced.
Hellman's Flavored Mayo. Get ready to eat your words.
The town of Agde in France is famous for sun, sand, sea and sex.
But lately, life on the coast has taken a strange turn.
The town's mayor, a respected pillar of the community, has been arrested for corruption.
His wife claims he's been bewitched by a beautiful clairvoyant.
Then there's the mysterious phone calls that local people have been getting.
I am the Archangel Michael. The whole town has been thrown into chaos.
As the mayor is unable to carry out his duties, I would like to address you all.
Legal proceedings have been initiated. Join me, Anna Richardson, and journalist Leo Schick for The Mystic and the Mayor as we investigate a story of power, corruption, and magic.
Binge all episodes of The Mystic and the Mare exclusively and ad-free right now on Wondery+.
Start your free trial in Apple Podcasts, Spotify or the Wondery app.
So let's go back to Christopher Street, Marsha's stomping ground.
This seems like the Paris is burning kind of like scene.
Oh, that's exactly what it is. It makes me think of that.
Picture that. So Christopher Street was her stomping ground.
That's where her home was. Okay. Also, home to the Stonewall Inn, which I'm sure you've heard of.
Sure have. So... In the 1960s, a lot of the members of the LGBTQ plus community were not allowed in bars, like any bar at all. and there were constant raids to see if they were in bars, because at the time, being gay was illegal.
That will never get, like... Oh, yeah, that time... Easier to swallow.
Yeah, it's never, like... That time when who you slept with was against the law...
That's a consenting adult. Or like not even who you slept with, who you danced with.
Who you love. You couldn't dance with a member of the same sex in public or you would get arrested.
Wow. Wow. Anybody considered to be male dressed up as a woman would face sexual deviancy charges.
That's insane. And it was completely normal for a bar to be fined for having that kind of activity or completely shut down just for serving somebody of that community.
Wow. So, like, if you served a drink to, like, a gay man at the time, you either would have been fined or shut down.
So you literally have to be like, hey, are you gay?
Because I can't serve you. Like, you have to...
Or not even. They just fucking read you and were like, oh, you're definitely gay, like, judged you, and were like, I can't serve you.
Or... the police walked in and saw that a gay or lesbian was being served and they were like, well, you're done.
You're shut down. And they were basically being hunted in these raids.
And imagine the NYPD. taking all that time to do that kind of bullshit when they really could have been doing a lot of other better shit yeah Probably had some other stuff you could have been paying attention to.
Probably, but who am I to say? Okay, NYPD.
Okay. So the Stonewall Inn was actually owned by members of the mafia, specifically of the Genovese crime family.
Oh shit, I did a whole project on them in my criminal justice class in college.
Intense. I did like a... Wicked huge project.
Lots to do. I think one of the live shows I did, there was Lucky Luciano.
Oh, yeah. He was either a member or closely affiliated with the family.
But anyway, that's a different story. So the mafia knew that the gay community needed a place to go, and they ended up running a lot of the gay bars in New York.
When they came to that realization that that's how they could make a quick buck.
I was going to say, because they were like, we can make money.
That's where the money's at. So... The Stonewall Inn was supposed to be a private bar It was like a club where you brought your own alcohol, you were supposed to.
BYOB. BYOB, kind of. And you were supposed to sign this guest book to get in.
Like, it was supposed to be this private, exclusive thing.
Oh, okay. It wasn't really, they just did that for like a formality kind of thing.
Oh, okay. And it was mafia-owned, like I said. it became huge in the gay community.
This was the place to go because anybody was welcome as long as you had the money to get in the mafia didn't care what the fuck you were doing if you had the money you were in they don't care who you love just get in here with your money yep And at the time, drag queens weren't welcome in any of like even the gay underground bars.
Drag queens weren't welcome because. The queens are the best.
Drag queens aren't. the best. I'm glad that that definitely switched over.
But at the time, even in the LGBT community, the T wasn't loved oh yeah i'm sure that it was the lgb community yeah and they were like yeah we don't want to be associated with you keep the tea out of there Which is fucked up.
Yeah. But at the Stonewall, that's where drag queens could go perform and live their best lives.
And it was considered safe. Because a lot of the times, the crooked cops would warn the mafia that when these raids were going to be happening, so they got tipped off. okay which that then they could get their shit in check and be like oh we're closed tonight or like so and so yada yada you you and you don't come in tonight that makes sense But on June 28th, which is Ma's birthday, so June 28th, 1969, police officers showed up at Stonewall unannounced.
Didn't tip anybody off that they were coming.
They arrested around 13 people. They beat so many people that were there.
Female officers took women into the bathroom to verify their sex.
That's... Fucking disgusting. Can you even imagine a time where like that is a thing that happens?
I would... You're all corralled into the bathroom and they're basically like, pull down your pants.
And they're like, show me your vagina. Right.
Like, that's not okay. Okay. I would, oh, and I want to kick those female cops in their vagina.
Yep, me too. I want to kick anybody in their penis or vagina if they did that to somebody.
That makes me so angry, the thought of somebody having to verify what's between their legs. enrages me that's like what that's a violation a violation of not even like lgbtq rights of human rights that's such a violation So if you were transgender and you did not have a sex change, you were arrested for cross-dressing.
Oh, my God. Which would lead to a sexual deviancy charge.
It's never going to be normal to me that, like, cops spent their fucking time doing this.
When there was so much. else to be doing to me i'm like you guys are fucking losers doing this yeah seriously So people around the area and people who had made it out of the bar started fighting back against this raid because They were fucking done with these raids.
Like they were happening constantly. And it was like, it's time to fight back.
And they're probably thinking the same thing.
What the fuck are you guys spending your time doing this?
Right. Nobody's hurting anybody. Like, we're all just here drinking, having a good time.
We're not bothering you. We're not murdering people.
We're not raping people. solve some rapes and murders and some other stuff like get out of our faces just let us live Well, people got especially angry when a woman who was a lesbian was arrested and hit over the head with a billy club.
And as she got, like, hit in the head while she's getting arrested, she yelled at these people, like, let's do something.
Are you gonna fucking do something? Yeah.
And that's when people started like really fighting back, chanting gay power, we shall overcome.
They started throwing beer bottles, change, anything they could at the police.
The police took cover inside the Stonewall Inn.
I'm like, oh, so now that's your safe space?
Okay. Okay. With the people that they arrested because they obviously didn't want them to, like, get away.
And they're trying to get away from it all.
And that's when somebody tried to set the building on fire.
Oh, shit. So it's argued if a policeman or like a policewoman was the one that... set the Stonewall Inn on fire or if it was, like, somebody in the angry mob or, like, who it was.
Nobody really knows. But people do speculate that a cop actually set it on fire.
Damn. The fire department was able to save the building and everyone in it, but that was just the fucking beginning.
Oh, yeah. That was just the deal. That was the catalyst.
So Marsha P. Johnson, our girl. Hey, Marsha.
Was 23 at the time that the Stonewall happened.
Stonewall happened the whole night. And she was there when it happened.
So she's believed to be one of the first people that started the resistance.
Apparently. For her. There's two stories.
She either threw a shot glass at a mirror or threw it at a cop and said...
I love this. She tossed it and she said, I got my civil rights.
Like now it's time to do this. She's like, fuck this.
She's like, all right, next on the list.
So for five days following the resistance at Stonewall, there was protests and gatherings and marches and just like. gay people, lesbian people wanting to bring attention to the fact that this was a community and they weren't fucking going anywhere.
Yeah. So... The first Pride March happened because of the people who fought back.
And Marsha was one of the most influential people involved in the movement.
Amazing. Love it. I fucking love her so much.
Such a badass. So Marsha had another friend who was a transgender woman and activist named Sylvia Rivera.
They started Star House together, and that stands for Street Transvite.
Excuse me. Street transvestites action revolutionaries.
And obviously back... Back then it was acceptable.
I mean, it was even acceptable when a Rocky Horror Picture Show was out.
Yeah, exactly. That song, Sweet Transvestite.
Yes. It's very weird to hear now. It is very weird to hear now.
But it was one of those things that you look back on and you're like, ooh.
I was like, should I say that? But that's what it was called.
But they call it Star House, which I love.
I love that. So Star House was a legit house where Sylvia and Marsha housed transgender youths who were homeless and had nowhere else to go.
They gave them clothing, money. They advocated for their rights. able to get the house by making a deal with Michael Umbars, who was a mob guy.
So, the mob, it's really, there's actually a lot of books about it that I found during this where the mob and the gay community were really closely knit together.
That is so funny. funny it is funny because i never knew that i didn't know how closely connected it was no but they were Wow.
So he owns the building and basically the building wasn't in good shape at all.
It was like dilapidated. And they told him, let us get in there for cheap, like give us cheap rent and we're going to renovate the building.
Yeah. And he was like, cool, let's get it.
Let's get it. And that's exactly what they did.
They fucking renovated the place, like, completely.
It was like, they did a great job. Marsha referred to the people who lived in the house as her children, and they called her the queen mother.
Oh, stop it. Like, okay. Like, okay. Sylvia herself said that Marsha was like a mother to her and that Marsha saved Sylvia's life.
Oh. Because Sylvia's life was tragic. Her father was never around, like, from the start.
He left basically at her birth. When she was three years old, her mother completed suicide.
Oh, no. And then Sylvia ran away from home when she was 11 because she started getting beat and abused when her family found out that she was wearing women's clothing.
Like, can you imagine for putting on a dress?
Like, now you see little boys all the time, like, wearing, like, Elsa and Anna dresses and it's fine.
Like, who gives a fuck? Like, they're children.
Like, I literally never care. As long as it is weather appropriate, I don't care what my kid is wearing at all.
They dress themselves every day. Right.
Because it doesn't fucking matter. It's like it doesn't mean anything.
And like be who they are. Am I asking you to wear it?
No. So let me live my life. And also I'm a, I'm female and I don't like wearing dresses.
No, I mean, I like wearing dresses. Let's stop shoving it on people.
It's just saying, like, stop making a norm for, like, across the whole thing.
You're a girl, you need to wear a dress.
I go in the men's section of Target all the time and buy the big t-shirts and like cut them up and like, I'm like, cool, this is mine now.
It's just, I don't understand like where, it's so weird how social like gender norms came about.
It really is. It was just like, women do this.
Well, if you think about it, it was illegal for women to wear pants for a long time.
Like, what the fuck? And that's, you know what, that's where it came from when it was like, you have to wear a dress.
Right. So nuts. So that's why Sylvia ran away.
So she was, like, a preteen when she met Marsha.
And... Basically, she says Marsha saved her life and they became like best friends.
But Marsha was really a mother figure for Sylvia and all the other kids in this house.
Marsha, Marsha, Marsha. Marsha. But she gave Sylvia full credit for founding Star House, and she said that she was just like a vice president.
She was like, nope, like, this is Sylvia.
I'm just along for the ride. We love a humble queen.
Right? I'm, like, probably going to cry during this one because I fucking love her so much.
A ton of people referred to her as a saint, and it really seemed like she was.
She would take some, like if you complimented her on like a scarf or a brooch or even probably the flowers in her hair. she would immediately be like, oh, you like this?
Like, here you go. Take it off and give it to you.
And people like that are so rare. They seriously are.
So Star House was amazing, but it was super short lived.
Mike ended up kicking them out because they couldn't they couldn't make rent.
That makes me sad. Which it's like, they didn't really have an opportunity to get the jobs that other people got because they were transgender.
So they were, like, turning tricks and trying to do anything they could just to... put a roof over their heads and then at the end of the day they weren't able to do that and he just fucking kicked them to the curb.
That sucks. So Sylvia went on to develop another star host location, but that one really didn't last long either for the same exact reasons.
In a 1973 rally for gay rights, Sylvia got up on stage and pleaded to the thousands of members that, that they just weren't doing their part for their transgender brothers and sisters.
And that she was like, there's literally people transgender people in jail right now writing to star house for me to help them and they need your help and i'm the only one advocating for this like please help us like i can't do this alone Exactly.
That's exactly what she was saying. She begged them to listen to make a change and they all just fucking booed her.
That's fucked. These are members of the LGBT community.
It's so crazy. Back then, they did not want to be associated with the T. That's nuts.
I had no idea that that was so like. Neither did I. It was such a disconnect.
I had no idea. A huge disconnect. And it's because really of Marsha and Sylvia and people that worked with them that.
The tea is included now. Yeah, absolutely.
And it took a long time. So she faces this huge booing crowd.
And after this, she really has a rough go of it.
Because, I mean, both star houses failed and this was like her dream.
She just wanted to advocate and help and she felt like she couldn't.
So for a while, she started drinking heavily.
She lived on the Christopher Street piers.
And after we find out that Marsha passes away, this is just a little glimpse into Sylvia's life.
And after Marsha passes away, that's when Sylvia really faces like a huge decline.
Oh, that makes me sad. She's homeless for a long time because There was a big homeless community living on the Christopher Street Piers, and the NYPD did a sweep of the homeless people there.
And that's what they called it, a sweep.
A sweep. It's like, okay. so okay but her life does turn around I'm just gonna I just wanted to focus on her for a second in 1997 she showed up at a house that was a lot like the Star House.
And this is Sylvia? This is Sylvia. The Transy House, and that's what it's called.
Rusty May Moore and Chelsea Goodwin were a transgender couple and they were living with their friend who was also transgender.
Okay. Now, they didn't set out to like advocate or anything, but word got around that two transgender women like owned this house.
So then people started showing up there because they were like, oh, like especially transgender men and women were like, oh, maybe you can help me.
Yeah. And it kind of turned into Star House.
Oh, that's so crazy. That's like not at all what they set out to do.
It like organically turned into a Star House.
Exactly. So word got around and the three of them really started helping people.
And it was just a happy accident. And Sylvia spent the last years of her life there.
So her life completely turned around. She got sober.
Yeah. Oh, I love hearing that. She ended up living there.
She met a partner there. I love it. She got to travel just like Marsha did around the world at different Pride and Gay events.
And at one event, they ended up like chanting her name, like calling her queen and like thanking her for everything that she did.
Oh, that's so nice to hear. It's amazing.
She passed away in 2002 but her memory lives on in a huge way.
A lot of people say that Sylvia was like the Rosa Parks of the transgender movement.
Oh, wow. And had Marsha lived longer, the two of them would have done it together for much longer.
Yeah, absolutely. Sylvia's Place now. It's called Sylvia's Place.
It's a shelter for trans women and those looking to escape domestic abuse violence. abusive relationships.
It's still around today and you can donate to Sylvia's Place by going to sylviasplace.com slash take-action slash donate.
I want to donate. I wanted to, too. So we can donate after this.
Let's do it. So that was just a quick glimpse into Sylvia and Marsha's relationship.
I love that. Now we're going to go back to Marsha.
All right, back to Marsha. Marsha had a wild life.
After she did everything at Stonewall and, like, the marches and everything, she joined Hot Peaches.
Hot Peaches. Hot Peaches. was a theater group that focused on LGBTQ plus culture.
It was like, Basically, they travel doing these shows.
I love that. It was awesome. They're still around today, I'm pretty sure.
The name Hot Peaches is just, it's chef's kiss.
Mwah. She was working with the company and they travel a ton.
So she got to travel between America and Europe and like back and forth all the time.
In 1975, she posed for Andy Warhol in a Polaroid, which is iconic.
And the Polaroid was later used in a collection called Ladies and Gentlemen.
Oh, I love it. Which is so cool. It's so crazy to me, but it's true that Marsha, she wasn't famous when she was alive at all.
Which is, I'm like, you pose for Andy Warhol, you're in this theater group, you're doing all these fucking awesome things.
But she was by no means famous. I think that happens a lot.
It does. Where it's like they're doing all this awesome stuff, but they're just one of those like people about town.
You know what I mean? And that's exactly who she was.
They do these cool things, but they're just not recognized for it.
Right. So one of her friends actually went with her to check out Andy's soup screen of her at a store on Christopher Street, and they were thrown out of the store.
They didn't recognize that she was the lady in the picture.
So that just speaks to the fact that it's like she was so fucking cool and She should have been famous, but they were like, yeah, get the fuck out of here.
Because she was transgender. And that wasn't the first time that she was kicked to the side.
So in 1973, just like Sylvia was kind of booed off the stage, those organizing the Pride Parade didn't want Marsha or any other drag queens leading the parade with them because they didn't want to be aligned with the drag queens.
So they were like, go to the back or, like, don't be here at all.
Like, we don't want you here. Wow. So...
Because of everything that she went through in her life, she had a super hard time with mental health.
She spent a lot of time, a lot of time trying to get that under control.
She spent time in psychiatric hospitals and she said that she had been arrested so many times that she stopped counting when she hit the hundredth time.
Oh my god. god which i was like whoa that's a lot um in the 80s marcia helped a ton of people that were suffering from the aids virus and she tried to advocate for them And in 1992, she confirmed that she too was suffering from the AIDS disease.
Oh, wow. But AIDS is not what Marsha died from.
So. No, it is not. On July 6th, 1994, Marsha's body was found floating in the Hudson River right off the West Village Piers.
That's so sad. She was 46 years old. And the police were really quick to say that she had completed suicide.
But anybody that knew her was like, no, that doesn't make any sense at all.
I don't think that's what happened. And they were like, we want answers.
Like, please investigate this. Yeah. But...
Obviously, even still in the 90s, like for transgender people, it was not even now.
I was going to say it's 2020 now. And we're still not doing the same thing.
It just wasn't investigated like it should have been.
Those who believe that Marsha's death was a result of suicide said that she had been giving her things away in the weeks before her death.
But like I mentioned before, that's just who she was.
I was going to say. It's not something she was like trying to get rid of all her stuff.
She was just like, oh, here you like it.
Take it. So that's not a valid argument.
And it's like the Bryce Las Pisa thing. Exactly.
We've mentioned him a lot recently. So...
So I feel like this is kind of one of those things where we've talked about this on the show before.
I think because Marsha was transgender, she was considered less dead.
And that's why nothing was done about this.
Yeah. It's like when serial killers will target sex workers or drug addicts or something.
They're seen by law enforcement as less dead.
Exactly. It's definitely the same thing.
So the main issue in Martha's case is that there's so many conflicting stories of the last time that she was seen.
So Randy Wicker. was Marsha's roommate.
And the last time that he saw her was on July 2nd.
But then there's reports from people that they say they saw her on July 4th.
And in fact, there's evidence that Marsha was seen super, super late on the night of July 5th and that two men were following her.
Oh, so she seemed, according to this, like, eyewitness account, she seemed scared.
She was heading toward the West Village Piers where she's ended up. like basically found dead there.
That's basically exactly where she turned up.
And Randy says on the Netflix documentary, The Death and Life of Marsha P. Johnson, which is a really good documentary.
Go watch it. Yeah. He blames himself for Marsha's death, so let's get into that and why he thinks he has something to do with it.
Now, do you know what her cause of death was?
I'll tell you. Okay. So... I'll tell you in a minute, but let's focus on Randy for a second.
Let's focus on Randy. Randy was trying to gain control of the Christopher Street Festival Committee.
This particular committee ran a portion of events at the gay pride, like all the gay pride events.
Okay. Randy basically launched his own investigation out of his own pocket, which cost him $5,000, and he hired a PI to look into this whole thing.
Damn, Randy. Because he was among a lot of people that thought the people running the festival were embezzling a lot of the money that they were making.
And he was like, this is being run completely crooked.
I'm not interested. Like, I'm or I am interested in taking this over.
Like, yeah, I'm not going to let this happen.
Huh. Huh. It seemed like the mafia was profiting from the event as well.
So, again, another tie to the mob here. Because... they had some heavy ties and the mob didn't want this getting looked into.
So Randy found out from Victoria Cruz, who is another transgender activist, and she's the one in the death and life of Marsha P. Johnson.
She launched her own investigation into Marsha's death, and she found out that there was a message meant for Randy that he never got, and it basically said...
Tell Randy what happened to Marsha will happen to him if he doesn't leave Red and Jacques alone.
Oh, shit. So it's like, okay. Well, there's that.
Obviously something was going on there and it included the mafia.
Yeah. And it's like... That's exactly what I mean.
That's like cut and dry to me. Yeah, to me, that's like, OK, investigate.
So because there wasn't much of an investigation here, obviously there's still all this mystery surrounding Martha's death.
So you would ask what the cause of death was.
Yeah. The cause of death was changed from drowning to undetermined causes.
So at first they said it was drowning, and then they were like, actually, it's undetermined.
That's weird. It was closed. Drowning is a pretty clear thing to see.
Very clear, obviously. And they said that she was like hands down alive when she entered the water.
So it's like, but. Was she chased into the water and then she drowned?
Was she unconscious? Like, exactly. So...
In 2012, the case was reopened, and it's open, like, currently.
Oh, good. I'm glad it's opened. Exactly.
So you see in the documentary that I mentioned, Victoria Cruz trying to get Marsh's autopsy report now.
When she's finally able to get the report, she's told, or before she's able to get the report, she's told that it's lost, it's not the complete version, there's missing papers, like...
And basically the people, the woman especially that she's talking to on the phone is like, yeah, I just like kind of don't give a shit.
That's, like, she doesn't say that, but everything that she's saying is pointing to the fact that she just doesn't care.
It's basically like, dude, I don't care.
Yeah. And... She just doesn't want to talk about it.
So she is finally able to get it, but it's not the complete version.
And when she does get it, she sits down with your bro, Dr. Michael Baden.
And- She wants to go over what everything means because there's a lot of language in autopsy reports that you're like, what does that mean?
Yeah, you need a pathologist to help you.
I think it's Dr. Bodden, actually. Is it Bodden?
I just recently realized I've been saying it wrong.
Well, Dr. Michael Bodden. So they reference in the report that there's a lot of discoloration.
And I literally just wrote in my notes, I can imagine that would have something to do with being in the water, but let's ask Elena.
So would discoloration lead to, or would that, her being in the water lead to the discoloration?
Discoloration, to me, points more towards, like, It possibly, I mean, possibly like liver mortis, which is like the pooling of blood in certain places in your body.
Would it be because she was like laying down in the water?
But that would be because she's laying in a certain position dead for a certain amount of time.
Okay. And gravity will take it wherever the lowest point is.
Would water speed that up? Water can definitely cause a bunch of stuff to happen to a body.
I mean, water does some gnarly shit to a body.
And I feel like that's probably why it made it so hard in this case to determine, like, exactly what happened.
Yeah, depending on how long she was in there, any number of things could have happened.
Okay, so they notice that there are hemorrhages in a lot of different areas of the brain.
Okay. Dr. Michael Bodden explains to Victoria that a violent assault was like can be ruled out, like he doesn't think there was any assault here because there's no impact or injury to Marsha's body revealed in the autopsy.
Okay. But that leads me to wonder, like, was it was an autopsy actually like done the correct way?
Yeah. Because there's really no explanation for all these hemorrhages.
The hemorrhage is the only thing I could have... I'm trying to think of it.
The only thing I could think of is like some kind of concussion kind of thing.
But then it's like there's no like blunt force trauma or anything like that.
Is it like she was? Yeah. That's weird.
And there's no answers because this just wasn't investigated.
So hopefully it comes out like why that would happen.
It's like no evidence of strangulation or asphyxia.
No. None. To explain all that? That's weird.
The cause of death is, like, basically she drowned.
Huh. So it's like, basically, Dr. Michael Bodden says the question is, did she drown because she was being chased into the water, or did she just... want to complete suicide and she jumped into the water yeah she's like there's two he's like there's very like conflicting yeah possibilities here but the fact that there's eyewitness testimony of these two men following her into the water to the pier And she looked scared.
It's like, what was going on? So there was a witness who saw the body and said that there was a hole in Marsha's head.
Oh. So, Bodden explains that this likely happened while the body was in the water because of floating debris. and faster deterioration because the water was, it's warmer water.
Okay, I mean... Yeah, I mean, warmer water, and if you're in the water for a long time, your skin's going to get slippage, and it's going to get...
It's almost like how we talked about the soap, the woman that became soap.
Yeah, well, and it's like your skin will just become like paper thin. right like anything can is going to be able to penetrate it at that point but a hole in her head a hole in her head but that doesn't do anything to your bones i mean was it It was just like what somebody saw.
But then in the autopsy, it's not really noted.
So it's like, was that just kind of a rumor?
Did he see that? And the kid is on camera and he's like, no, there's a fucking hole in her head.
Wow. But. on the autopsy. And again, remember, this is not the complete autopsy.
So where the fuck is the complete autopsy?
Yeah, I want to know. That's the problem.
So, people in Marsha's life say that she was worried that the mob was after her and she was becoming increasingly scared and increasingly nervous in her last few weeks alive.
According to a witness, they did see Marsha get into a car with three, and they described them...
Three Italian men, we'll say. Yes. So basically nobody, like that's the last eyewitness report of Marcia and then she ends up in the water.
But it's like she got in the car and somebody says that, but then they say she was out of a car and she was being followed by two men.
So it's like, what is it? Which one happened?
But it was never fucking investigated. That's the thing, like why is no one talking to anybody and trying to place together, you know, piece together this shit?
That's the thing. And basically, it's just all these documentaries and stuff about Marsha, it's just trying to spread awareness of, like, the few facts that we do have so that we can hopefully get to... something to lead to answers here because there's so much question around her whole death. huh so i feel like though it's like she anytime you're involved in the mob with the mob it's like you got a question a weird death yeah 100% but nobody wanted to and it's because she was transgendered so I think In this case, that two things are for sure.
I think Martha's death is real, real suspicious and I totally think she was murdered.
Yeah, something weird happened. Because it's like, there wouldn't be all these questions if she had just... If it was just cut and dry.
And there were people close to her and they would have known if she was suicidal and wanted to end her life.
It's like. Yeah. I mean, there's times when no one knows.
That is true. I do want to make sure like. we look at it that way that like sometimes people will be like i had no idea right and they sometimes people hide it But it's like all the little inklings of like the mob and then.
When you're involved with the mob and then like.
These weird eyewitness testimonies of, like, she was being followed or she got into a car with, like, suspicious people.
And these weird messages that were being, like, threatening.
Right. Yeah. Like, what happened to Marsha will happen to you if you keep asking questions, basically.
Boom, that's saying it right there. So that's the one thing that's for sure is that her death is suspicious.
Yeah. But the other thing is that she will forever be known as one of the most influential women most amazingly dedicated woman in LGBTQ plus history.
She was a pioneer. She was a motherfucking pioneer. so many people will go on to remember Marsha.
And there's actually supposed to be monuments honoring both Marsha and Sylvia in Greenwich Village right near Christopher Street.
I love that. Governor Cuomo, who I know a lot of people are like in love with.
I know. A lot of people really like this Cuomo guy.
Yeah, people like him. Yeah. He announced recently that the East River Park is going to be renamed in honor of Marsha P.
Johnson. That's awesome. So I thought that was super cool.
Love that. And then there's two documentaries that I watched that I think that you should watch.
And actually, these documentaries are like... kind of feuding with each other, the creators, because... Like the Fyre Festival docs.
Yeah, right. So the death and life of Marsha P. Johnson was done after Happy Birthday, Marsha.
And the girl that did Happy Birthday, Marsha is a transgender woman.
And she says that the guy who did the death and life of Marsha P. Johnson got all his shit from her.
And she's like pissed off about it. So they're feuding right now about that.
But I thought they were both really fucking cool things.
So, pick your side. So, pick your side. But I thought they were great.
I'm right in the middle. There you go. I'll watch both.
I'll watch both. So that is the life and very suspicious, confusing death of Marsha P. Johnson.
Wow. That was crazy. I just feel like her story is important to tell.
The death part is just so confusing and there's just no answers.
No, that's like fascinating. It is fascinating.
Something's going on. I love that Dr. Michael Bodden is involved.
I knew you'd be stoked about that. But we love when his name pops up.
We love him. We love him. I also love that I know how to say his name now.
Yeah, I think because I've been saying it wrong forever, apparently, Baden, because I think one of our listeners actually was like, oh, really?
It's like pronounced like Baden. And they were like, kind of like body, like Bodden.
I was like, oh shit, that makes sense. Well, there's also a ton of cool pictures that I can post for this episode, which I'm stoked about, especially of Sylvia and Marsha.
They were bad bitches. Yes. They were bad bitches.
Bad bitches. Alert. Yes. So follow us on Instagram at Morbid Podcast.
Hit us up on Twitter. Amorbid Podcast. us a gmail morbidpodcast at gmail.com we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird but not so weird that you're a douche and that you don't think transgender people are involved in the LGBTQ plus community because they totally are and everybody's involved and we love you so much.
Bye. They are people. Everyone's people.
Love you. Bye. Thank you. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music.
Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
