The advice in this podcast is general in nature and does not constitute medical advice.
In the spirit of reconciliation, Dr Fallon and Dr Law acknowledged the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and the continuation of cultural, spiritual and educational practices of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
They pay respect to their elders past and present and recognize that sovereignty was never ceded.
Is your baby hungry at 2am or do they feed simply out of habit?
Not all babies will stop feeding overnight when it's no longer necessary.
Some enjoy those overnight feeds a lot and expect them to continue for one, two or even three years.
There are loads of factors that influence night feeding, and today we're going to unpack what you need to know before weaning overnight feeds.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombel Pediatric Sleep Clinic programs created by us.
I'm Dr. Fallon Cook, and I'm finally back here with Dr. Laura Conway.
We're the directors of Infant Sleep Australia.
Laura, welcome back on the podcast.
It's been so long.
Yes, it's been ages.
Yeah.
How was your big trip overseas?
Yeah, I've been mostly in the UK for about three weeks.
And yeah, it was lovely, really nice.
Slept in loads of different beds as we did a wild road trip around the UK visiting friends and family.
We were up in Stratford and then down in Devon and then across at the New Forest and a lot of other places in between.
So yeah, it was loads and loads of fun.
Yeah.
Oh, that's so good.
And look, we held down the fort without you.
Our little team of practitioners.
We've got Kelly, Lauren and Kat who swept in and picked up a lot of your appointments while you were gone and took wonderful care of the families you normally see.
And it was just really lovely.
Gosh, I love having our amazing team now.
You know, it was just us for so long.
And now to have our practitioners is amazing. just so wonderful.
It means that we can actually do these things.
We can go and visit family or take a bit of time off.
I'm sure there are other small business owners listening in who are like, yeah, I've been there.
Yes.
Well, last time I went back to the UK you know, even some of the families listening may know that I saw families whilst I was in the UK and I was just getting up early in the in order to see families back in Australia.
And this time I was able to have a proper break.
So that was really lovely because having rest and recuperation is important.
Yes, who would have thought?
Who would have thought?
Yes.
Yeah.
And at this time I don't have any toddlers anymore, so I don't generally have my children climbing into bed with me.
But I did have an awful case of bed bugs um, with one of the hotels that i stayed in.
That was a whole different sleep problem.
So maybe we'll do an episode on bed bugs and how to get rid of them and treatment options.
Oh my God, you poor thing.
It's the way with big trips.
Like, we lay out these really awesome plans and it's all going to be great, but there's always going to be a couple of totally unexpected things that just yeah, prop up, make it interesting.
And now you've had an interesting time whilst I've been overseas with all of your renovations.
And I think quite a few of your clients may have heard some banging and crashing.
How's it going?
They certainly have.
Oh, it has been completely wild.
There were a few moments where I was like, why did Laura have to go now?
This is the worst time to be down person.
But um yeah no, our renovations have been going on forever, for just forever.
Um, and it's not even I mean, it's a big reno, but it's not like super big um.
But yeah look, we are finally in the last couple of weeks of it.
But yeah, it's just been ridiculous trying to see clients when there's, you know, men on the roof screaming at each other, screaming obscenities at each other.
Because Australian tradies know a whole lot of extra words that my children had never heard before, but they certainly know those words now.
Oh, my goodness.
It's been very stressful managing that.
And school holidays happen, so I had all three kids home.
We haven't had a kitchen.
I just sent you a photo before to know, Laura, at the moment we don't have a kitchen.
And so I have the only bench space I have is half of the top of my microwave.
I'm heating dinner for a family of five in a microwave with a little bowl of balanced on top for some salad.
And then to load up the plates, I had to put the plates on top of the toaster.
So it is just crazy.
And my kids are like, why can't we have spaghetti bolognese?
I'm just like, I would love that too.
Okay.
But we can't just wait another couple of weeks.
Oh, God, I'll tell you what, everyone's patience is thin.
They're lucky they're not just having a box of Pringles for dinner.
If I'd bought some Pringles, I probably would have.
There have been some really just not healthy dinners.
Yeah, I bet.
I won't be riding a cookbook anytime soon.
No.
And are all the three children in the same bedroom still or are they?
They're across two bedrooms.
Okay.
Yeah, there's still plenty of arguments though.
I'll tell you what, the day I can finally put them in their own rooms, I will be very, very happy.
They will be true.
Yes, I bet.
Yeah, it has been crazy.
Anyone out there who has tried to live in a house whilst renovating it will be yeah, they'll know the pain.
We're right.
So close to the end now that I'm like I've got to draw on every skerrick of patience left in my body.
Yes, focus on that end goal.
Yes, and soon we'll both be back on an even keel.
And um yeah, we've got all of our calendars open for um, clinic appointments and coaching call appointments and, And we're yeah, nearly once your Renaults are done, we'll be back in full force.
We've got some pretty cool stuff planned, haven't we?
Yes, yeah, we have.
We can't really talk about it yet, but there are going to be some massive things towards the end of the year and into the new year.
And we'll finally have the headspace to really get into those things.
Laura, I have to tell you something really funny that happened while you were away that I haven't even told you about.
I got recognised in the supermarket of my tiny little town that I live in.
Did you?
I really did.
I was like i told my kids and they were just like wow, that's amazing.
Oh my god, it was so funny.
I was having the most stressful day right and i was not wearing very nice clothes.
My hair wasn't done, i've had some stupid ponytail or something in um, just looking like pretty feral.
But that's what i love about living in a tiny town in the countryside.
It's like yeah, who cares?
You know, no one knows anything about what i do.
And then I'm standing at the register and I had so much junk food on the counter as well.
The kids had sent me down there to get them snacks and, like you know, I didn't – yeah, I was just like fine, just don't hurt me and I'll buy you snacks.
Yeah.
So I was looking at the counter and I was kind of spaced out because I was looking at it thinking, oh my God, people must think I am the worst parent.
And then this lovely person beside me said, are you the lady from Infant Sleep Australia?
And I was like, oh, yeah.
I'm so glad this is your podcast.
And she had the most cutest, gorgeous little baby.
And I just didn't even know what to say.
I don't know what the script is for that.
I was so like, oh, my God, I'm not in work mode.
I'm in like feral house renovating sloth mode.
I'm not in my work.
And so my brain just kind of couldn't.
Anyway, so I forgot to even ask her name.
She was really, really lovely.
So if you are listening.
I know she lives in the same town as me but yeah, that kind of made my day because I got to tell my kids and now they think I'm famous.
Oh, yes, that's amazing.
Wow.
I'm thrilled for you.
Yeah, maybe we're both going to have to start putting nicer clothes on in future when we go out, in case we're recognised.
Just pop on the workplace before you head out the door.
I had someone the other day in the local IGA.
She was standing beside me in the queue and when I spoke to the person serving me her head flipped around really sharply and she had a baby in the pram.
So I think she recognised my voice, but she didn't say anything to me and I didn't say anything to her either.
I was like, what?
LAUGHTER
Because I think I wasn't wearing anything very nice either.
And I do get told I have a distinctive voice.
So yes, but that person, that listener, was a brave enough to say anything to me.
I was a jet-lagged mess, so it's probably just as well that you didn't say anything to me.
I didn't know if I was coming or going.
Oh gosh, how funny.
All right well let's, let's dive into night weaning.
I think that, like I don't know, while you've been away, I've had a lot of parents with questions about night weaning and it really got me thinking about how this is something that really can trick parents up.
You know, we're obviously thinking about sleep all the time, but So overnight feeds if they're still being offered, you know, past the point where a baby is really needing them, they can be a really like crucial cause of overnight wake-ups.
And sometimes parents do all the right things, but they're still doing some night feeds.
And for as long as they keep feeding at night, the baby just keeps waking.
So weaning the overnight feeds becomes a really important part of really getting more consolidated nights.
Yeah.
Um so one of the first factors I suppose we're always thinking about in terms of when it comes to dropping overnight feeds is the age of the baby.
Um Laura, do you want to give us a bit of an overview of kind of how many night feeds are typical across that first year?
I know it's one of those questions that's very hard to give a definitive answer on.
Yeah.
Take it away.
Do it.
Okay.
I'll see what I can do.
Um, so yeah.
Ordinarily, when new babies are really little newborns, they feed frequently 24 hours a day because they have tiny tummies.
There are some unicorn babies that might stop having any feeds overnight in the first one or two months of age, but they are quite rare.
If you have one of them, then as long as their weight gain is fine and your health professionals haven't alerted you to there being anything amiss where you need to wake them, you don't have to just enjoy it.
But most babies little babies will be feeding multiple times overnight, every three hours, then it might stretch out to every four hours.
So probably, you know, once your baby is over a couple of months old They will be able mostly to get through the night perhaps with one or two feeds overnight, potentially three if they have a really high sleep need.
So their overnight sleep is quite a long period of time.
But then what we find is that at around six months of age, as long as your baby's weight gain is fine that's often the time where you start to introduce solids during the day the number of feeds that your baby has overnight can start to drop.
And so if they were on two or three, then it might drop down to one.
And then... that feed might fall away altogether once they're established on solids.
But really, in general, it's your call.
If your baby hasn't dropped their feeds after they've started solids and you don't mind, then that's okay.
There's no pressure to do anything about it.
Some babies simply feed for longer overnight than others. and do what works best for you.
But that's just like, in a nutshell, lots of feeds when they're really small.
Up to about six months.
It's very normal for babies and typical for babies to still be having one two, possibly three feeds overnight.
But after that, once they're on solids, the number of feeds overnight generally drops, and it can for some babies at that point be appropriate for them to have no feeds overnight at all.
How did I go, Fallon?
You did really well.
That was very succinct.
I liked it.
Yeah, and I think it's one of these things that gets – it attracts a lot of contention and people with very strong views like And I just think all of that is just nonsense and it just puts a whole lot of guilt and worry and concern on parents and largely mothers more so than fathers.
It really is just what you want to do.
Like you are the parent.
You get to decide on these things.
Yeah, they're going to need to feed overnight probably for the first six months.
But then you know, provided they're well and gaining weight, you can make a decision on whether you want to keep doing it or not.
They can start to get all the calories they need in the daytime.
Yeah.
And of course this is if you've been told by any health professionals that your baby needs to be feeding overnight more frequently or for longer, then you would always follow that medical advice.
So we're really talking about babies where there's no health concerns and who are developing as we would expect them to.
Yeah, absolutely.
So we see a lot of families in clinic and some of them are very unsure about weaning overnight feeds.
And I thought let's dive into what are some of the common reasons parents should consider stopping overnight feeds in their babies that are over that six-month mark.
And obviously weight gain is okay.
They're solid solids.
They're not unwell.
What do you reckon?
What are the things that make you go?
Oh, I think this baby is probably ready to drop the overnight feeds.
Yeah.
And then I kind of go, oh.
Hang on a second.
Is it that they, which way round is it chicken and egg?
Yeah.
Often, what we see is that babies and toddlers, who feed a lot overnight, are then not hungry during the day.
And so actually the feeding overnight is impacting them, moving towards having good solid, good intake of solids.
They don't want to start solids.
They're not waking up in the morning hungry.
They're not interested in that first feed of the day, let alone brekkie.
And then parents end up in this cycle where the child doesn't eat solids in the day because they're not very hungry.
So then they feed loads overnight.
They wake up the next morning, not very hungry.
And that becomes a problem because After six months of age we really need babies to be getting iron from their diet.
If your baby's solid intake is being impacted, that is one of them.
Yes, I think that's a really important one.
Sometimes we see babies who are, you know, 10 or 12 months old and barely eating solid food at all because they're having, you know, five or six overnight milk feeds.
And that's when it's a really clear problem.
And I would just say if the overnight feeds are contributing to excessive night wake, sometimes it's really clear.
Like if a baby can only fall asleep during suckling or feeding, you know, and they're just waking constantly overnight because they're being unlatched and then put back down asleep in their cot.
Well, they're just going to wake up pretty much every sleep cycle, wanting that feed or suckle back to sleep.
And it doesn't mean that you have to stop all overnight feeds necessarily.
It might just be that you need to reduce them and come up with some kind of other way of resettling them without that feed.
So I'm always thinking about that in appointments is is this night feeding kind of part of the sleep problem?
Yes.
And yeah, and it's an interesting one, because sometimes, for as long as there's any overnight feeds offered, babies will just keep waking because they're like I can't tell the time yet mum.
Is it time now?
Like, well, how about now?
And as soon as you drop that last feed, they're like, oh, and then they sleep through the night.
Like, oh, the feeds aren't on offer.
That's cool.
I'm just going to have a lovely consolidated night then.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's... They're probably the real key, key things, aren't they?
Yes.
But I also think, Fallon, that...
If a parent wants to stop the feeds overnight and their child is over six months of age, is established on solids and their weight gain is fine, it's a perfectly reasonable choice to make.
It's parents' choice.
So if we're thinking about reasons to drop the overnight feeds, it's an option.
Their solid intake isn't being impacted.
They're not waking excessively, but they're still waking once or twice a night.
And you just want them to be able to maintain their sleep for longer.
It's a reasonable choice to make.
You're just done with it.
Yeah, you've got to protect your own sleep.
Yeah.
Yes.
And I think the other thing that's really important for parents to know is that calorie intake is a lot like when we think about sleep needs.
You know, if you've got a baby with a 12-hour sleep need, you're thinking well, how much day sleep can they have so that they've got the best possible night's sleep?
We want all their sleep to move to the night.
But with calories.
After that six-month mark in an otherwise well baby Um, we are trying to teach their circadian rhythm.
Nope.
All the calories need to go to the daytime.
Now we're not going to have them overnight.
And so by reducing night feed, you're just, their body's just learning.
Oh, okay.
There's fewer calories available overnight now.
And it pushes them to the day.
It's not that they're not going to get the calories they need.
They're just going to get them at a more socially acceptable time.
Yeah, for everybody in the household.
Yeah, and for a lot of parents they're like hell.
Yeah, bring it on.
I'm weaning night feeds as soon as I can, and that's perfectly fine.
It's a totally valid choice.
Yeah so Fallon, what are some tips for how parents go about weaning night feeds?
Yes well, probably the very first one.
I mean, weaning night feeds, I know how damn hard it can be.
Like it's.
You know, if a baby wakes up, they're expecting to have a feed and you're like no, maybe not.
Maybe we're going to resettle another way.
It is super hard.
So I would say I wouldn't even attempt it until you're feeling really confident that their sleep pressure overnight is high enough.
If you're having split nights, false starts, there's something wrong with the daily rhythm.
And if you try to drop those overnight feeds, you are in for one hell of a horrible time.
So I wouldn't even try.
I would get that daily rhythm sorted.
So if you're a Sunbelt member, you'd work through the unique sleep needs chapter to really make sure you've got a daily rhythm that is suited to your child's unique sleep needs.
A lot of parents will come to us in clinic and go, no, no, they're tired enough.
I know, I know.
They're tired at the end of the day.
It's fine.
And you're like, no, you don't have it quite right yet.
We've still got sleep nights and false starts.
You know, we need to tinker a bit more.
So I would definitely be getting that sleep pressure just right, because if they're awake in the night, sleep pressure's low, they can push back for a really long time.
They're probably going to be very upset.
Whereas if sleep pressure's high enough, often they will drop some of those night feeds all on their own accord and move those calories to the daytime themselves.
And then I think that factors into the next thing I would say, which is you need to have a plan for what you're going to do when you don't feed.
So if you're going to go in and settle them in their cot, know exactly what you're going to do to settle them and be incredibly consistent, because your baby is wondering what's going on and you want to show them that you are the calm consistent, predictable parent.
You're still there to give support, but they're falling asleep without this feed.
So having that kind of plan in place beforehand helps is going to be much more effective than just randomly waking up at 2am and going nah, I'm just not doing it this time.
I'm going to rock and shush and pat and bounce.
And you know, like, yeah, it's not gonna, not gonna work out well.
Um, yeah.
What else do you think, Laura?
What are some suggestions you have?
I would be advising parents to drop one feed at a time rather than dropping them all at once.
We want to give your baby's or toddler's body to adjust to having fewer feeds overnight.
So dropping one feed at a time.
And usually we suggest dropping the first feed of the night because the sleep pressure just tends to be a bit higher earlier on in the night.
So your baby or toddler is more likely to respond well to whichever cot or bed settling approach you've chosen.
And at that point then later on in the night, when the sleep pressure is a bit lower, then they may push back a little bit more.
So drop the earlier feeds first.
And then if they're having two or three feeds, just think about moving the subsequent feed, perhaps a little bit earlier in the night.
And every three days drop another feed.
And that is giving their body time to adapt and to take on more calories during the day.
And then you can be confident that when they're waking up in the night they're not hungry because they have started to eat a bit more during the day.
Yes, yes, absolutely.
I often say to families across those three days, maybe you're going to put in a few more items on their solids menu that you know they really love.
Like those things where you're like, oh, yeah, they'll eat heaps of porridge if I give it to them.
Well, you're going to have porridge on the menu quite a bit.
So you're really helping them to get those extra calories in pretty easily, rather than trying some new, unusual food that they're a bit unsure about, to stick with the things that you know they'll eat a decent amount of.
And one other last little thing is I often say to parents decide when you're going to offer the overnight feeds.
And what I mean by that is, if you say you're going to drop to, maybe you're just dropping down to one overnight feed.
They've been having two or three, but you're going to offer one.
You might decide, okay, I'm going to offer it if they wake up at 1 a.m. or later.
You can choose the time.
But by having a time in mind, you and your partner, if you've got one.
When you are woken by the baby overnight, you look at the clog and you immediately know okay yep, we can feed, or no, we're not feeding.
And if you're a breastfeeding parent, you want to send in the non-breastfeeding parent to do that resettle.
You do not want them to see those boobs.
Okay, the boobs stay out of the nursery.
And if you're sharing a room, still you might even not if you've got the boobs.
You might be the one who sleeps in another room for those few nights.
So you're just out of sight, out of mind.
Yeah, that can be a really good little tip, because we want to try and make it as easy as we can on parents, because it's a tricky change, and easier on babies as well.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I just want to clarify.
I know sometimes in the clinic I have parents saying what exactly is an overnight feed?
Does that mean the bedtime feed as well?
And when we're talking about overnight feeds, we are meaning that they will still have their milk feed as part of their bedtime routine, and then they will have a feed on waking up in the morning.
But the weaning overnight feeds.
We mean any feeds between those two times, between your bedtime at night and your wake up time for the morning.
So continue to offer the milk as part of the bedtime routine for as long as you like to.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, excellent.
So another big question we get asked is parents saying how am I going to know though, like what, if they're hungry?
Like how can I feel confident that they're not hungry?
Because if my baby's hungry, I don't want them to be suffering.
And I think it's a really good question with a really interesting answer.
Yeah, but what we know is from six months of age the circadian rhythm matures and it actually slows digestion overnight to focus on sleep.
So in all likelihood, if your child is over six months of age, their weight gain is fine.
They've got no health issues.
They aren't actually going to be waking because they are hungry overnight.
So...
Have that in your mind that their body is actually dampening down their appetite in the night.
And they may just be waking more out of habit because that's their way of going back to sleep.
They would like to have that feed and maybe they like that feeling of being full.
That's a bit different from the feeling of being hungry.
Of course, if you are ever unsure about whether this is the right time to do this for your child, especially if they have had some health concerns, always check with your health care team first that it's the right thing to do and get their advice on how many feeds or what volume of bottles, for example, they they need overnight.
And just remember to drop one feed at a time every three days or so to give your little ones body time to adjust.
And then you can be confident in the night that they are not hungry.
Of course, you can give them a sip of water for over six months of age.
If you think they might be thirsty, thinking of those hot summer months that we've got coming up, they might wake up thirsty in the night, just like we sometimes do as adults.
So you can give them a sip of water before you start to settle them in a different way.
Yeah.
One of the things I love to explain to parents, cause I think, you know, as adults, we can all really resonate with it is from that six month mark and onwards, if they, you know, it's, it's like for you yourself, if your baby wakes you up at 3am in the night and you get up, even if it has been six, seven, nine hours since you had your dinner, you don't feel hungry.
You don't feel hungry, but ordinarily humans would.
But that's your circadian rhythm going, no, we don't need to prioritize calories right now.
We need to be sleeping.
And that's what starts to happen for those babies as well.
Of course, if there's a feed-on offer, they're going to take it.
Yes.
Yeah.
They're probably not actually hungry.
They're just like, yeah, I can have calories overnight if I want to.
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that Fallon, because yeah, like absolutely, if it was nine hours during the day that we hadn't eaten, we'd all be chomping at the bit ravenous.
But we're not.
If we've been asleep for nine hours well, actually nine hours, maybe it's morning time, but you know, if it's we've been asleep for six hours overnight, we're not necessarily going to be hungry.
We wouldn't be hungry.
Waking up in the middle of the night.
Yeah, exactly.
I think that can really help parents to have a bit of confidence.
Yeah.
And Fallon, what's one bit of advice on overnight feeds that you wish all families knew?
I think it would just be that there are some babies, plenty of babies, who will keep waking multiple times overnight for as long as there is even just one feed on offer.
So this isn't every baby, but there's a reasonable number who end up in our clinics where the parents are like I've got them down.
Maybe they're a toddler.
I've got them down to one overnight feed.
But they just keep waking like six, seven times overnight and I have to resettle them.
And then eventually I give them the feed and then I resettle them.
And we can do all this work on sleep pressure.
We can work on the settling approach.
But for as long as that feed is offered, that toddler, who's not so great at telling the time, is just going to keep calling out like maybe it's time now, maybe it's time now.
And then you know, when I work with these families and they're always very nervous to drop that feed, they're like, oh my God, the toddler's going to be furious.
But then they get brave and they do it.
They drop the feed after two nights where they've resettled them.
The feed's forgotten by the toddler and they're just sleeping through.
And it really can just be that.
So if that sounds familiar to you, you've got to – you know either an older baby who's approaching toddlerhood or a toddler.
They're having an overnight feed.
There's a lot of night wakes.
You think you've got the daily rhythm right.
Just get rid of that feed, because it is a huge motivating factor.
And it's not just that they're waking once to have that feed.
If they're waking multiple times, chances are you'll drop that overnight feed and within a couple of nights they're going to be sleeping really well.
So be brave.
They can do it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And there's more information about weaning and different ways that you can go about it.
You know, for example, with toddlers, you might want to think about reward charts.
Or you know, there's various other things that we can do to support night weaning that we can't possibly go into in just a podcast episode because we do need to get on to all the parent questions.
Yes, we do.
We've been yammering away from bloody ages.
Yeah.
So that was a whistle stop tour of weaning.
But know that there is more support if you are in this position where you would like to reduce the number of overnight feeds that your little one is having.
And you've read the content of Sombel.
You've listened to this podcast, but you're still feeling a little bit nervous.
We know it is a big transition point for families.
Then come and see us.
We have appointments available, coaching calls, or you can have longer appointments with our amazing team and they can come up with a clear plan for you for night weaning.
Yes.
And we've got, you know, an OT, we've got a couple of children's nurses.
So they really know this stuff.
Yeah.
Amazing.
All right.
Well, let's dive into some parent questions.
We've got quite a few to get through and there were a lot sent through.
Like there was an astonishing number of questions come through.
So if you don't hear an answer to your question, just hold tight and we will.
We'll get an answer to you soon enough.
But maybe we'll start with Beck.
So Beck has a seven month old daughter who has a sleep need of about 12 to 12 and a half hours.
She has three 40 minute naps from which they wake her up and she sleeps from 8.30pm to 7am.
Initially they saw a marked reduction in overnight wakes using the quick fade approach and from reducing the day sleep.
However, after five days, she began waking three or four times per night again.
And they want to know why is she waking again overnight?
Would dropping to two naps be beneficial now, even though she finds it hard to stay awake for more than three and a half hours?
Yes Bec, I think what you have experienced is the instant effects of sleep pressure and devising a daily rhythm that is divvying up the sleep across the day and the night.
So you've reduced your daughter to three short naps.
And that, along with the cot settling, you saw some immediate improvements there.
But I think now what's happened is that your little one needs to probably drop down to two naps.
So you had that instant, almost instant improvement.
Then things settled with the effects of the higher sleep pressure.
And then I've just gone a bit wobbly again because at seven months old I suspect what she wants is to probably have one longer nap and one shorter nap.
And then she's also going to be able to find it a bit easier to stay awake a little bit longer than that three and a half hours.
So I think that would be what I would suggest.
Move her to two naps, one nap of 80 minutes, one nap of 40 minutes, and you will then be pleasantly surprised, after a few days, to find that she copes really well with the longer awake times.
Yeah.
Yes, I think that's spot on, Laura.
The other thing that makes me go hmm is a lot of parents will say to me oh, we're doing the quick fade approach.
And then I'm always like, well, what do you do?
Like have you got to the point where you don't need to do it anymore, or are you still patting and shushing to sleep?
And often parents are still patting and shushing.
So for this baby, if you're still patting and shushing or maybe you've weaned off patting but you're still shushing, or there's just any kind of interaction still happening there they're going to keep waking going.
Where did you go?
Where's my pat?
Where's my shush?
So keep working through, if you haven't already Bec work through that point where you wean off the padding and the shushing.
Once they're entirely self-settling, you might also find that helps those night wakes to go away.
Yeah, good point.
OK, Yvette has written in and she's been using the Guardian Gate approach for her 25 month old, but is struggling with his naps.
He used to nap for an hour and a half, but now he chases them when they try and leave the room.
He climbs on them if they stay in the room with him and refuses to stay in his room when they return him.
This is for his naps.
They have skipped the nap and moved bedtime earlier on occasion, which he has mostly coped with.
So Yvette is wondering if we can suggest any tweaks, or would it be better for them to drop the nap altogether?
Okay.
So of course you could keep trying, but there's always going to be a limit to how long parents will keep trying with that process.
Some parents are like, I'm going to give it two whole weeks.
You know they've got the energy to keep resettling, keep taking them back to their bed for that nap.
And eventually toddlers are like, fine, I'll have the nap.
But if you feel like you've given that a red hot go already, then your other options are.
Of course, you could just completely drop the nap.
If he's coping pretty well, he's having an earlier bedtime, maybe it's just time to do that.
Or maybe we're going to have to have a period of time where we keep the nap but we keep it short and we just do it in the car or the pram on the go.
And it gives you a bit of a get out of jail free card because it's an easy settle.
You just do it on the go.
And then we take that stress away and maybe he does that for a few months and then you drop it.
So there's a few options there.
It is really tricky with toddlers who are in beds and they really don't want their nap and they've got the ability to run around and create happiness.
It's really hard.
I think those are really good suggestions, Fallon.
And if Yvette, you were to think of shortening the nap?
Just think about what his sleep cycle length is.
And it might be it's about 45 or 50 minutes, for example and you would then be wanting to offer him that length nap every day.
Um, and you know then?
Um yeah, give that a red hot go, and um yeah, then once he drops the nap, you won't have those being chased out of the room um, in the middle of the day anymore.
Yeah, and a longer night might be really, really nice too.
Yes.
Yes.
All right.
Well, Tom has emailed in saying their nine-month-old son's sleep need is around 13 hours.
He has... two hours of naps.
Yeah.
Two hours, total naps and about 11 hours of sleep overnight.
After using the supported accelerated approach, he self settles for his naps and at bedtime.
However, he generally wakes after 20 to 30 minutes from his naps requiring resettling for 10 minutes and and he has started to wake 30 to 45 minutes after bedtime at night.
Overnight he can be resettled by Tom and has one feed from mum.
But if Tom is doing shift work, the only way he will resettle for mum is with feeds and rocking, and they're wondering what they can do to improve the situation.
Okay, it sounds like there's a lot going on here.
This might be a family that would benefit from a coaching call where we could do a bit more of a deep dive.
First up as soon as I hear a child is waking up from their naps after basically one sleep cycle if it's around 30 minutes and then also having false starts.
I'm thinking sleep pressure might not quite be high enough.
And one thing you could look at doing, Tom, is to lean into shorter naps.
So rather than trying to resettle.
And I know Tom, from your longer email that he is able to be resettled after 10 minutes and then does another sleep cycle.
But one option would be you just lean into two short naps during the day to try and eliminate the false starts at the start of the night.
Then he's going to have higher sleep pressure at night, which might mean that it's a bit easier for him to do longer stretches overnight before waking.
Then in terms of the resettling...
Yeah, it's really tricky when a baby settles more quickly for one parent than another, particularly when that parent is going to be working away from home.
So I would be thinking potentially...
In the, I think that Tom might be FIFO.
So in the times in the week that you're a week or two where you're rostered at home, maybe if you and your wife do the resettles together overnight, so that your baby sees that both you and your wife do the same thing overnight um, so you're doing the support accelerated.
So perhaps it's you're both sitting in the room on a chair or just outside the room.
You go over tom reassure come and sit down together.
Then mum goes over reassure, sits down, etc.
Um, so that you're kind of doing it together, supporting each other.
Then it might be easier for your baby to learn that mum actually does exactly the same thing as dad.
And then when dad isn't here mum, or it's not so new to him and he's not expecting mum to do something different.
That's potentially something to try.
Fallon, do you have any other suggestions for this family?
Yeah, I find these situations really hard where one parent's, you know, using the resettling approach the other parent, because I don't know much about this story.
But if the mum is really wanting to do, feeds and rocking, that really changes things as well.
Sometimes one parent really wants the self-settling to happen.
The other parent's like no, I want to feed them whenever, overnight.
If you're not both on the same page, I'm just going to be totally honest.
You're probably not going to have much progress because for your baby they're just thinking well, I know, if I get really escalated and mum appears it's going to be a feed.
And so it just becomes really tricky. to make progress.
But I like your idea Laura, of if there's a period where you're both at home, practice together.
Come up with a plan that you can both work towards.
You know, it sounds like sometimes he gets through the night on just one feed, fine.
So it would be totally legitimate to go right we're just doing one feed from now on and everything else is going to be a resettle.
And sometimes it's just not and that's okay as well.
It might be that in another few months it feels like it's the right time, and then you're both ready to just dive in and get it done.
Yeah, brilliant.
Yeah, it is a tricky situation.
OK, our next question is from Heather.
So Heather has a baby girl who's transitioned from only sleeping whilst being held to settling independently in her cot.
That's wonderful.
Yeah, well done, Heather.
She says that, however, the one thing that she still struggles with is biphasic nights.
So bedtime is nine, wake up 7.30 and she has one nap for 90 minutes in the middle of the day.
The nights start off well, but she consistently wakes somewhere between 230 and 4 am for over an hour, during which time she is wide awake.
So they plan to lock her sleep again, thinking that it's probably sleep pressure.
But they just wonder whether we have any other ideas to help with getting these biphasic nights to be a thing of the past.
Yeah.
Yeah, that sounds really tough.
I'm just thinking about the mass of that.
So 9 p.m. to 7.30 a.m., we've got a, what is it, 10-and-a-half-hour window.
That's 10-and-a-half.
But we're awake for an hour, so it's sort of 9-and-a-half plus the 90 minutes brings us to about an 11-hour sleep need.
Gosh, my maths teacher will be proud of me doing my maths on the fly.
Yeah.
Oh, well done.
But, you know, an 11-hour sleep need is low.
You know, it's not a lot of sleep to work with.
And if you've got biphasic nights, it definitely is a sleep pressure problem.
So that's just exactly what Heather suggests is exactly what I would do.
I would log her sleep, every bit of, you know, sleep time.
Don't include wake-up times overnight in that total sleep average.
And then I would come up with a daily rhythm.
It might be that we've just got to start having like, for example, if they're always awake an hour overnight, It might be that you move wake-up time an hour earlier.
So 6.30 a.m. is now your wake-up time.
And it might take a week of doing that.
You know, sticking to a 90-minute nap, sticking to the same 9 pm bedtime but just getting up an hour earlier.
And after a week that child's circadian rhythm has gone holy heck.
We cannot have a party in the middle of the night anymore, because we have to get up on time in the morning.
So the circadian rhythm just feels more pressure to sleep continuously, and then we'll start to see a resolution of those nights.
Yeah.
So I hope that helps Heather, but that is definitely what I would start with.
And then if you've got you know settling difficulties, once you've got that daily rhythm sorted, you're in a better place to go.
Okay, this is going to be our settling approach that we're going to use.
Yeah.
Yeah yeah, good luck, heather.
I'd also just be double checking that there isn't anything motivating her to wake, but the fact that she's wide awake for over an hour suggests it is circadian rhythm.
Yeah, and i don't know how old your baby is heather, whether she's more like a toddler uh, but they if altering the night time after you know, giving a good probably one to two weeks doesn't help.
I would look at um trialing reducing the length of the nap, seeing if that helps.
Yeah yep, good luck, heather.
Yes, we have a question from Kirstie, who has an almost 11-month-old who has two naps a day, one for an hour and 10 minutes and one for 35 minutes and just under 10 hours overnight.
He now refuses to nap in his cot so all of the naps are in the pram.
He manages five hours awake before bedtime and sometimes this pushes out longer and he seems fine.
Kirsty wants to know whether to trim the first nap to 35 minutes to keep him on two naps for a bit longer, or whether to make the leap to just one nap now.
Okay.
So I think the main problem for Kirsty is that she's – because he's not napping in his cot, it's feeling a little bit hard –.
Um, almost 11 months old.
Look, ideally we'd keep him on two nights for just a little bit longer.
So I think this is going to be a case of just experimenting.
Some babies do drop down to one nap at this age, but it's not quite even 11 months.
Let's do an experiment.
Let's see what it's like if we give him two naps that are just one sleep cycle each.
But do that consistently for a week.
Don't do one day of this, one day of that.
That won't tell you anything.
No, that's right.
Yeah, consistently two short naps.
And then you can probably bring bedtime a little bit earlier.
And because I don't think it's not that he's waking overnight.
It's just that he won't nap in the cot.
And yeah, see if that helps.
And then if that doesn't help, then I would think about moving him to one longer nap.
And so dropping the second nap.
I feel like I might have been as clear as mud.
Was I as clear as mud there?
I think you did good.
Okay.
No, I think it's so true.
Some of these questions, it's like well, we've got to do some experimenting to really figure out what this child is actually needing.
Yeah.
Okay, so Alice has an eight-month-old and a three-year-old.
When both children are at home with her.
Alice finds it hard to stick to the two-nap schedule that works well for her baby because they're out and about for the toddler.
And her baby falls asleep easily on the go, i.e. when it's not his nap times.
So this might mean that he might only have a short first nap when he's out and about and And then it's too long until the second nap.
So Alice has been giving him a 15 minute power nap in the middle of the day to help him through to his second nap.
And she's wondering whether we have any other suggestions for when she's got both the kids at home, or is it OK what she's doing?
If it's working for you, then it's perfectly fine.
But if Alice is to say, our nights are terrible, especially if we do the three naps, that's when I'd be like okay, we've got to reschedule some of those toddler events and plans that you've got.
So if it's working okay, it's fine.
You'll probably get to a point where it won't work anymore.
You'll know when you get there.
Something will just be off and it won't resolve.
The nights will get tricky.
Settling will get hard, something will happen, and then that will be a sign that you've really got to um, stick to the two naps.
But also, babies get older, so sometimes they just are more alert when they're out and about in the pram.
They're not so susceptible to drifting off to sleep um accidentally anymore, so it might not even really be a problem in the end.
When you really do need to stick to two naps um, it might not be so hard to keep the baby awake when you're on the go.
Um for the toddler.
Would you add anything to that one Laura?
There are some episodes, Alice, where we have spoken about juggling a toddler and a baby.
So check out our back catalogue.
And there's a lesson in Sunbell as well.
Yeah, yeah.
But, yeah, I agree that if it's working for you, Alice, like Fallon says, then just keep going.
There's no need to make any changes.
Excellent.
All right.
And we've got two questions to go.
Susanna is trying to work out her five month old sleep needs.
She's having difficulties because between 4am and 7am they're co-sleeping and her baby is feeding back to sleep for sort of 30 to 60 minutes when feeding.
Hang on.
I'm so confused.
I don't even know what, what am I saying?
It doesn't make sense.
Hang on.
She's having difficulties because between 4am and 7am they're co-sleeping and her baby is feeding back to sleep for 30 to 60 minutes, when feeding usually only takes 10 minutes.
Okay.
Got it.
Right.
I just wasn't, wasn't. computing in my brain.
Susanna is not sure whether to count this extra time feeding as sleep or not.
She also wants to know what are the signs, when implementing the daily rhythm, that suggests she may have assigned not enough sleep than what her baby needs.
Okay.
So I think Susanna, if your baby usually only feeds for 10 minutes, there's a good chance that they are sleeping for some of that time that 30 to 60 minutes, when they're co-sleeping with you and probably by the sounds of it just suckling on you, perhaps using you more as a dummy.
So I wouldn't be saying that that is 60 minutes awake.
I would be saying, oh, look, maybe it's 30 minutes awake.
Sorry, 30.
Yeah.
Oh, my God.
There's too many questions.
We're losing our minds.
We're recording at night again, people, so we're always slightly more hysterical.
It's nearly 10 o'clock at night.
I'm just losing the ability to make full sentences start again.
So Susanna, I would be saying some of that is probably sleep time and maybe estimating about half of it is sleep time.
Then what you're doing is would yeah, and then you're, if anything, you're overestimating how much sleep there that your little one is having.
So in in all likelihood then, to answer your next question, like you're worried that you're going to underestimate how much sleep your little one needs, you're actually going to be more likely to be overestimating.
So I don't think you need to be worried that you are not going to be giving your child enough sleep.
If you're overestimating the amount of time that they are asleep during that long drawn out feed in the morning, which is, you know, would just be dozy, dozy feed, sleep.
Yeah, sleep pressure's low and they're just suckling and dozing and, yeah.
Yeah, I agree.
And I think as well you know, with changing as daily rhythm, they're going to be cranky at first, always going to be cranky.
They're a bit out of sorts.
They're like jet lag.
But that should resolve and then they'll be coping okay.
So if your baby is having some happy awake time, you know after each nap they're getting enough sleep.
They're okay.
If they're not getting enough, they'll be consistently cranky all the time.
They will not be happy.
Yeah yeah, you'll know.
Yeah, and you can always add more sleep.
You can always add more sleep yeah, all right.
Our final question is from Rochelle, who has a three-week-old and a three-year-old.
Prior to the baby's arrival, her three-year-old was sleeping through the night and napping in the day.
Now she is refusing to nap at home but will nap at daycare.
And she also wakes once overnight and needs a parent to stay with her.
Whilst this is okay when both parents are home, Rochelle's partner is often away, so Rochelle wants tips for how to manage her toddler's nighttime needs whilst also managing her newborn's sleep.
A little bit similar to the earlier question from Alice.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I would be asking daycare to drop that nap, because the inconsistency can kind of throw the circadian rhythm around a little bit.
And it's going to be really important to have nice high sleep pressure overnight to minimize those night wakes.
And really normal for a three-year-old to kind of get their nose out of joint a bit about a new baby joining the family.
And often they think, well, I know what I'm going to do at 2 a.m.
I'm going to have some special time with mom or dad and whatever.
Then they're starting to want you there more and more, because they're like well, that baby's getting a lot of time with you and I need my little bit of time with you as well.
So often what we suggest in these situations is having some planned special play time one-on-one.
I think I still haven't added it into some of our special play steps.
Maybe we should just do an episode on the wonders of special play.
Maybe that can be our next one.
But just having dedicated time where you say to your toddler we're going to do special play time now.
And it's got to be a time when there's no baby present.
Your phone's not there.
There's no screens on.
You've just got a special space where you have that really engaged time with your three-year-old.
You don't direct the play.
You let them direct the play and you are just immersed in that play with them.
And what you do is you announce it's starting, you announce when it's ending, and you do it every day at around the same time.
I often suggest to families after brekkie do that every day, you know, once with each parent during the day.
So your toddler learns that no matter what goes on, I've got my special time with my parent.
And that's my chance to get my feel of their attention.
And often when they get that 10 or 15 minutes of dedicated time with you, then they're not so trying to get every ounce of attention for the rest of the day from you.
They feel like their needs have been met and they're a bit happier to go and separate and play.
And often what we see is that flows into the night.
They wake up overnight and they're like, I'm pretty damn tired because I'm not napping anymore.
And I've had amazing time.
I get amazing time with mom or dad every single day.
I'm not feeling that need to call them in here overnight.
Yeah um, that was my whistle.
Stop fastest anything.
Tour of special play.
Hope you're taking notes, Rochelle.
It is tricky if you think there's separation, anxiety and bigger problems.
Definitely book a coaching call or an initial appointment.
You can really do a deep dive into that because it can be quite challenging.
But um yeah, that's something to um to to think about.
That could really help with the three-year-old Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's a brilliant starting point.
And hopefully both doing both of those things dropping the nap and doing special play during the day is really going to help your toddler get back on an even keel, Rochelle.
So good luck.
Let us know how you get on.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, just a final note that our sleep clinic I'm not biased or anything, but it is the most welcoming and non-judgmental space you will ever walk into as a new parent.
So if you are needing additional support, we have an incredible team that is so highly skilled, so compassionate, so caring and so ready to help your family to get the sleep that you need.
A lot of people email us saying, what are your approaches?
How would you do this?
We are just going to tailor it to you and your kids.
That's what we do.
There's not one approach.
We only do this or we only do that.
We do a whole bunch of different approaches.
But the most amazing work we do is when we are just fully tailoring to the family in front of us.
So whether you want to join us on a telehealth appointment, it doesn't matter where you live if you're joining us via telehealth.
We've also got our Hawthorne East Clinic.
If you're local to Melbourne and want to go in, you can see Laura in person.
But just don't keep suffering through sleepless nights because sleep can turn around really quickly.
You just need that bit of support to get there.
And just putting a little call out, please buy us a coffee if you're able to.
It helps to keep our podcast going and we really appreciate those of you who have bought us some coffees over the past year or so.
It's really, really lovely.
And if you're having a lot of trouble with night waking, I want you to go and tune in to the Night Waking Masterclass.
There's one for each age group in Sombel.
I worked really hard on it, guys.
Just go watch it, all right?
It is really good.
We've tried to pull together everything you need to know to get much better nights, and that's included in every Sompel membership.
So if you remember, it's sitting there waiting for you.
If your nights are feeling quite hellish, go and tune into it.
Give it a watch.
And if you need more support, we're 100% here for you.
So thanks, everyone, for listening in.
Thanks, everyone.
Bye-bye.
If you need help with your baby or toddler's sleep or settling, you need Sombell.
Sombell is Australia's first online pediatric sleep clinic program for babies and toddlers aged zero to three years.
It contains all the best resources from the sleep clinics at Infant Sleep Australia so you can rest easy and soak in your child.
To find out more, click the link in the show notes or visit sombell.infantsleep.com.au.
