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Hello and welcome to Happier, a podcast where we talk about strategies and ideas for making our lives happier healthier, more productive and more creative.
This week is a very special episode because every 10th episode is a very special episode, and today we will be talking to psychotherapist, best-selling author and podcast host with me, Lori Gottlieb.
I'm Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness, good habits, human nature.
I'm in New York City in my little home office, and joining me today from Los Angeles is my sister Elizabeth Kraft, my sister the sage.
That's me, Elizabeth Kraft, a TV writer and producer living in LA.
And Gretch, I wish Lori was my psychotherapist.
Yeah, exactly.
But before we jump in, I want to remind people you can request free, signed personalized book plates for yourself or if you are giving a book of mine as a gift to somebody else.
I always get many requests for these around the holidays.
Unfortunately, I can do this for U.S. and Canada only, but please ask soon.
There is a little bit of a process for me to get these ready.
I will actually mail them to you.
And so you do not want to cut it close, just being real.
So you can request those at happiercast.com bookplate.
These are like bookplates that you put in the front of a book that will have somebody's name, and I'll write a little note and sign it.
And also, do you have any gift guide suggestions?
We are putting together our gift guide.
I know you've had some good additions, so well done.
Yes, love a gift guide.
And today, we will be talking to Lori Gottlieb.
Lori Gottlieb is a psychotherapist.
She is the author of several books books most notably her absolutely blockbuster memoir called Maybe You Should Talk to Someone A Therapist.
Her Therapist and Our Lives Revealed, as well as the bestseller Marry Him The Case for Settling for Mr Good Enough.
She also writes the Ask the Therapist advice column for The New York Times and is a TED speaker.
Welcome, Lori.
Hi, Lori.
Hi.
This is so fun.
Here we are in this whole other podcast together.
Yes.
It's like a parallel universe.
I love it.
Exactly.
Yes.
I've been listening to you guys on your new podcast.
Now I get to talk to you.
This is fun.
Yes.
You got to send in a question.
Oh, am I allowed?
You can do it anonymously.
Okay.
Although I have a feeling it Whatever you send in, Gretchen will figure out that it's you.
I might.
Okay, I'm absolutely going to send in a question.
And I want to have you guys actually describe the podcast.
But first, people may not know that you have known each other for a long time.
Tell us how you met.
We actually were in college together.
And then we reconnected.
Where did we reconnect, Laurie?
There was a reunion.
There was a college reunion.
And Gretchen, you sort of came rushing out a door and said...
I know you just published a book and I'm going to be publishing a book and let's talk about writing.
And that was so fun.
And so, you know, our, our career paths sort of were parallel to each other, but also we overlapped.
And it's been really fun to watch each other do this kind of work.
It's so funny.
You remember that?
I only very dimly remember it.
But when I was starting out writing, I didn't know any other writers.
So at any time I had a chance to meet somebody, I would absolutely hurl myself at them.
So that is exactly... You did, but I love that.
I was like, she is so brave.
I love that.
She wants to talk shop and nothing's going to stop her.
That's right.
Yeah.
And here we are, all these years later, and you have the Since You Asked podcast, which is an advice podcast, which I am absolutely loving.
I was telling Gretchen Lori I love all the listener input, the polls of would you do this or that and hearing what people say and all the questions are so interesting.
But for people who haven't been listening to Since You Asked, can you describe it?
I think what we wanted to do was create a different kind of advice podcast.
Everybody loves advice.
Everybody likes getting advice.
Everybody likes giving advice.
And there are so many different ways you can approach a problem.
And so that's why we really like to give our thoughts given our expertise.
And you know I'm a psychotherapist and I write an advice column for the New York times, and Gretchen does all this research on happiness and human nature and wellbeing.
And so we said, okay, we have this expertise.
We want to bring that.
But at the same time, we want to learn from each other.
And so we really involve our listeners in, you know, giving advice, giving feedback to our advice, giving updates on whether the advice worked.
And we think everybody, no matter what.
The problem is that everybody can relate to something in the question and the answer that they can take away and find useful.
It is just astonishing with a single situation how different perspectives can be.
You just realize that People bring such different insights, observations, experiences to a dilemma.
And it's just fascinating to hear people's responses.
I think we're just interested in...
How other people get through the world and how they see the world.
And I also think advice format to me, it's kind of like the before and after.
Yes.
I will always sign up for that format.
Yeah.
It's so interesting to hear somebody come in and they'll bring in a question and then we hear oh wow, here's the part of the advice that worked.
Here's the part that I took.
This was really helpful.
And also I thought about doing this or one of your listeners suggested this and I tried that.
It's really great to see not only that people aren't alone in what they're going through, but that there are these real solutions that people are sharing as well.
We always say like, so what is our advice?
We don't let ourselves off the hook by just talking generally about a situation.
It has to be like, okay, now what would you do?
So that's the hardest part is, okay, therefore, what will you do?
And I think having that concrete plan is always very useful.
So we always want that section of, yeah, we've talked about it.
Here are the different ways to look at it.
But when it comes down to it, here's what we suggest you do.
And we're going to give you these steps.
Yes.
You have to have that action item at the end.
Yes.
Yeah.
Well so Lori, today we're going in deeper into your life as a therapist, because you're this writer and a lot of people know your books and you know from Since You Asked and from your columns and your former podcast, Your Therapist.
They know you as this advice giver, but you're a psychotherapist and you see patients.
And we thought it would be interesting to talk to you about the secrets that your therapist wishes that they could tell you, because I think we're fascinated by by this profession and by this role that therapists play.
And so now we're gonna ask you to talk about your life as a therapist.
Okay, let's do it.
Okay, so Lori, my first question is, Why do people lie to their therapist so much?
And can you tell if someone is lying or evading when they're in a session with you?
Because it's one of these things, you're only hurting yourself.
It's like you're paying for this.
Yes.
Why do people lie?
Yeah.
So it's interesting when we talk about the behind the scenes of therapy in my book and maybe you should talk to someone.
I wanted people to see the behind the scenes.
And so you know we're following the lives of four of my patients, but then we're also following my life as a patient going to therapy.
And I do what my patients do, including lying to my therapist.
So I'm no different.
And it's one thing, by the way, to understand why your patients do this.
It's another thing to be in that situation where you walk into therapy and you think I'm not exactly going to mention this thing that I know I should mention.
And I'm paying money to be here and I'm spending my time to be here.
So why would I not do that?
And so I think there are several reasons.
One is that I think that in the beginning, you really want your therapist to like you.
And it's not necessarily a conscious thought.
You want to feel understood.
And part of feeling understood is here's my version of the story.
Now you probably know that there's more to this story that you're not quite telling, but I think in the beginning you just want to be validated.
It's reasonable that you did that thought that believed that. right?
And so if you give the other information, you're going to maybe be challenged, and maybe you're not ready to be challenged on it quite yet.
Before you have this knowledge that okay, my therapist likes me, we're solid.
Now I feel like I can show these parts of myself that maybe I'm less proud of, or maybe I feel a little bit of shame or regret around.
So do you find that people tend to lie or evade more at the beginning of therapy?
Oh, absolutely.
Oh, interesting.
Okay.
So it's as there's more Trust.
It's hard to be honest with someone else.
So therapy helps you to become more honest with yourself in a compassionate way.
And a lot of people lie to themselves because it makes them feel bad.
They feel bad about themselves.
But when you realize that you can be honest with yourself and have grace around choices you made or behaviors that are patterns that have gotten in your way, then you're more apt to be honest both with yourself and with your therapist.
And I think everybody wants to know, what did you lie to your therapist about?
Well, here's Here's what I lied.
I wrote about it in the book, so it's not a secret anymore.
So a few things that I lied to my therapist about.
One was that I wasn't telling my therapist the whole story.
So I was talking about a breakup and I was very much telling the story from the perspective that my friends and I would tell the story from.
And you know, of course there's more to it and there's another person involved and they had their reasons for doing things.
And it doesn't necessarily excuse behavior, but it gives context to behavior.
So it took me a little while to feel comfortable explaining giving that perspective as well.
And then there was also something that I didn't tell the truth about, which was that I had Googled my therapist.
And when I say Googled, I mean, I really went down the rabbit hole.
And this happened because my therapist said, you need to stop Googling your ex.
You can't do that anymore.
It's not serving you.
So I was like, okay.
And he always said, do something different, replace it with a different behavior.
So my behavior at that moment is with my fingers on the keyboard was okay.
I'm not going to Google the ex.
I'm going to Google my therapist.
And that led me down this big rabbit hole.
I didn't find anything untoward or anything alarming, but I did find an interview that his mother had given to an organization that she was involved with and it was about their family history.
And I learned so much about my therapist.
And one of the things that I learned was that his father had died at a relatively young age.
And I had been talking in therapy about my very close relationship with my own father and my own father was getting older and I was thinking about, you know, losing him and that was making me sad.
And then I thought maybe I should edit myself.
I mean, he lost his father much younger and you know, and so and so finally, I I disclosed that I had read that interview and it made the conversation about my own father so much more richer and meaningful than hiding this secret and editing myself in therapy.
As a therapist, can you tell?
Can you see the gaps?
Can you feel the redaction?
Yeah, I can.
And I think sometimes it's about timing and dosage.
So If I feel like someone is holding back, I'm going to hear what they have to say and kind of take them at face value right now, knowing in the back of my mind I'm coming back to this, but this person isn't ready yet.
So I might sprinkle in something to show that I'm onto you, but not in a judgmental way like in a hey, I know this is hard and maybe you're not ready, and we're going to come back to this.
Interesting.
And sometimes people slip up.
They'll say something like, well, you know, because you have a teenager.
And it's like, I've never mentioned that I have a teenager, right?
So you know that they've Googled you, or there's something where they aren't acknowledging that something has happened there that they know but they don't want to tell you they know.
That's interesting.
Yeah.
Of course, everybody Googles everybody, I'm sure.
Yeah.
All right.
Coming up, we have so many more questions for Lori.
But first, this break.
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Okay, we are back with Lori Gottlieb, psychotherapist and co-host of, Since You Asked, my new favorite podcast.
Yes.
Lori, I'm sure this is a question that you get all the time and it's endlessly fascinating, which is is there a mistake that you see people making over and over?
And as a therapist you can see it a mile away.
But you have to let them know, discover for themselves, or will you alert them to the mistake?
And what are the most common mistakes?
I think one of the most common mistakes is that people want to change someone else without making changes themselves.
Sure.
That makes so much sense.
Right.
Right.
So when people come to therapy, often they say you know the problem is this person or you know something out there, someone else or something else, without saying you know that might be true, by the way.
There are a lot of problematic people.
Right.
You know, we always say before diagnosing someone with depression, make sure they aren't surrounded by jerks.
So, of course, there are people who are difficult.
But at the same time, what is your response to that?
How do you respond?
And if you keep having the same interaction with them over and over without doing something different yourself, then you're not going to get very far in terms of feeling some relief around whatever is going on in this relationship.
So I always say to people.
That insight is the booby prize of therapy, that you can have all the insight in the world.
Like, this is why that person does this.
This is why I do that.
But if you don't make changes out in the world, the insight is useless.
So someone will say, you know, oh, I got into that fight with my husband again over the weekend.
And I'll say, okay, well, did you do something different?
No, I understood it, but I didn't do something different.
So...
The biggest mistake is not taking action.
It's just saying oh well, I'm doing the work because I'm going to therapy and I'm getting insight, but you're not willing to make any changes yourself.
So maybe the change is when my husband does this thing, I'm going to do something different.
And so then he's going to do something different because we're doing this dance, right?
And so I'm going to change my dance steps.
He's going to have to change his dance steps somehow.
So you can't change another person, but you can influence another person.
And that's what we want. to happen.
Yeah.
Well, and along the same lines, when people are describing relationships to you and again, I'm sure you're asked this all the time, but it's endlessly fascinating is are there clear red flags?
Are there things where you're like, the minute you hear it, you're like, oh boy, this is not good.
Yes.
So what are some clear red flags?
I can say unequivocally, yes.
Very definitive.
Okay.
Yes.
Instances where somebody else is trying to control the person that I'm seeing.
They want to limit who their friendship circles are or how much contact they have with their own family.
They speak to them in a way that is very undermining or diminishing.
Those are red flags.
It doesn't mean get rid of this person.
It means address this problem and let's see what's going on there and whether this can change.
And can it ever change in your experience?
Or is it more getting the person to realize oh, this isn't a relationship I want to be in?
It can change.
Most often the person realizes that this isn't the kind of relationship that they want to be in.
But it's better to go through that process of seeing whether something can change, because it helps people move on much more seamlessly.
It helps them to say, oh, I understand more about myself and what my expectations are now.
And I'm going to go into the next relationship knowing a lot more about what I need and what I want.
That makes so much sense.
Yes.
Because they probably, as we all know, many people have the same relationship over and over again.
Yeah.
Yes.
It's the same person, different name.
It's the same thing.
And you can see it.
And sometimes we don't help our friends see that.
So sometimes our friends come to us with the same issue over and over.
And it's kind of like if a fight breaks out in every bar you're going to, maybe it's you, right?
We don't say that to our friends because we're so worried that they're going to find that unsupportive.
And yet someone needs to.
In a different way, in a more gentle way, maybe ask them have you noticed that you keep ending up in this situation?
What do you think is going on?
Just to help them to think through that, instead of saying yeah, that person's terrible, get rid of them.
And then the next time it happens, yeah, that person's also terrible, get rid of them.
It's kind of like do you notice that this keeps happening, where you keep getting into relationships with this kind of person?
What do you think is going on there?
And you're not going to be their therapist but it might encourage them to consider that there's something that they're doing and maybe their picker is off or something right.
And maybe they need to understand more about why, and maybe that will get them to come to therapy and understand more about how to change that.
To me, this is one of the most uncanny aspects of human nature, which is how people find each other.
Because you're like, there's so many people in the world.
How do you unerringly find the person who is?
I know part of it is that you kind of induce, but even somebody who's willing to be induced into doing it, I'm like gosh.
People are perceptive.
Right.
Well, it's because there's our conscious mind, what we're aware of.
And then there's something running the show that we're unaware of behind the scenes.
And it's the behind the scenes part, the subconscious part of us that's outside of our awareness, that says, when we see someone who looks like someone that maybe didn't pay attention to us growing up or diminished us or didn't speak kindly to us or was a yeller or drank too much or had a drug problem or whatever the issue is,
And so we meet someone new and our subconscious mind says, you look familiar.
Come closer.
Even though what we think is, oh, this person's so different.
This person's going to be different.
I'm going to have a different experience with them.
And what we're trying to do again we don't realize this is we're trying to master a situation that we didn't master growing up.
So we're thinking...
Again, this is outside of our awareness.
I'm going to win this time.
This is gonna work out better this time.
I'm gonna get this person to see me, validate me, understand me, be kind to me.
And that's not a good strategy.
That tends not to work that way.
Well, speaking of difficult people, the holidays are coming up and I'm sure you have patients who say I've got this really tough Thanksgiving dinner or whatever, coming up.
I know that I'm gonna have a very difficult person to deal with.
How do we think about, should you just skip it?
Should you go?
What are some strategies that you can use to manage dealing with a very challenging holiday situation?
If you could just flat out tell your patients what to do, what would you say?
Well, I think everybody's situation is different, but I think that...
First of all, let me just say that the holidays are a time when therapists get a lot of calls because families are complicated and they bring up this younger part of ourselves.
We all know that experience of sort of walking into Thanksgiving and feeling like, wait a minute, I'm a grown woman but I feel like I'm 16 because my sibling said this or my mother said this, right.
So we all know that feeling of regressing around family because we fall into our old patterns and we don't even realize it's happening.
So I think the first thing is that...
When you're around your family.
Who do you want to be at that Thanksgiving dinner or holiday event?
Whatever you're doing, holiday gathering.
So do I want to be the person that reacts in the way that I used to react in the family dynamic, or do I want to do something different?
And it's temporary, by the way.
It's like when you lived there, you were there and you're like, oh wow, I'm here for years and years and years as a child.
But now... it's a couple hours.
And so what can you switch the lens to instead of this person does this thing.
That irritates me, and they probably will, by the way, because that's just what they do.
Can you focus less on that and switch the lens over to what do I enjoy about this?
Because usually there is something, there might be a different person that you enjoy there.
And maybe you spend a little more time with that person.
Maybe there are some traditions that you enjoy.
Can you lean into those traditions?
Yeah.
Maybe when the person in your family does or says the thing that you know is always going to trigger something in you, that you just say okay, take a breath and you move on and you don't read into it.
You don't ruminate on it.
You don't think of what comeback you can make.
You don't try to make them understand why that was not kind or why that bothered you.
Just let it go.
One of my favorite stories is, I hope it's true, perhaps it's apocryphal.
It was three sisters who played in-law bingo and they each had dreadful, dreadful in-laws.
So they made bingo cards with all of the most annoying things that they would say, like when are you two going to have kids?
And I thought you were going to quit smoking or whatever it was for each one of them.
And then every time the in-laws said it, you got to count it off.
And whoever got bingo first did a blackout on bingo one.
Gamified bad in-laws.
But I love that because I think humor is so underrated.
Humor is so helpful when you go to these things.
And can you laugh just in a way?
You might even lightheartedly, not in a mean way, but can you laugh at like oh,
This is our family.
Here we go again.
But also if you have a conspirator, like you're saying, these three sisters, you know, if there's another person, it could be your partner.
It could be a cousin.
It could be a sibling.
It could be anybody.
It's just like, oh, here that person goes again.
And you just give them a look and a smile.
And there's just this moment where you can laugh at the situation and you don't take it in so intensely.
Well, you know, in my research about the open door, one thing that I've heard from a lot of people is that they really struggle emotionally with how holiday traditions change as their children grow up.
It's not the same.
What would you say for people like that?
I mean it's clearly everybody would say like yes, I know, traditions have to evolve.
How to think about that in a practical way?
Well, so you and I Gretchen, we have kids the same age, and so we're both dealing with this in the same way right now.
And I don't know about you, but for me I like the traditions and I think you have to have some flexibility for them to evolve.
But I also think that the kids like having the traditions, even if they roll their eyes at them, even if they're like oh, are we really doing that again this year?
I think there's a sense of continuity and stability and a sense of home that, even though they're away and they're establishing themselves as adults, separate from you and separate from the home, that there's always home and it feels familiar and it feels cozy and it's fun and it's a little corny and it's a little cringy, but still it's fun.
So I'm a big proponent of keeping the traditions and And just being lighthearted about it, like not being dogmatic about it, but just kind of being like hey, we're doing this again.
And you know the kids will have their reactions and everybody participates and it just becomes fun.
And I think there's something about like, whenever you're doing something, there's that activation energy of it's hard to start something, but once you're doing it, it's really fun.
So just get everybody started on it.
And then everybody.
I think tends to have fun as opposed to trying to like coerce everybody to do something.
Just get it started and then everybody's going to join in.
I think for a lot of people it's more like I had an idea that you'd come home and we would spend the whole day and you'd help me cook and we'd have this leisurely dinner and then we'd watch a holiday movie at night.
You come in sleep till two, gulp down your dinner and then say now I'm gonna go out with my friends.
Right.
Okay.
Yeah, you're here for Thanksgiving dinner, but that's just.
We're not having the day that we always had in the past.
That's a moment too.
Yeah, so what I mean by traditions is keep the ones that make sense, but have flexibility.
So it's not like you throw everything out you're in a different phase of life.
So yes, they're going to want to go out with their friends.
They're home for break.
They want to see people.
So you're not going to make them sit at a table for four hours, right?
They're just not going to do it.
But you can still.
While you're at the table for an hour, you can still do a lot of the things that you like to do.
And you can still do some of the other things that you like to do.
And they're going to have their own things that they like to do.
But I don't want to get rid of the traditions.
I just want to make some room for the stage of life that everybody's in, without losing some of the things that are nice to continue.
That makes sense.
Lori, switching topics to friendship.
So I think friendship is a big issue for men and women.
But I know for me, my friends are so important to me.
And there's a lot of talk about toxicity these days, like what makes a toxic friend.
And we were wondering...
How does somebody know if they're the toxic friend?
Yes.
And do you ever tell a patient, I think maybe you're the problem?
So in my advice column that I write for the New York Times, Ask the Therapist.
Somebody wrote in that exact question.
They basically had this friend group for many, many years.
And Something happened on a vacation.
He doesn't know what.
And the other friend doesn't talk to him anymore.
And then finally the friend said, well, you know, other people think this too.
And he was shocked.
He was like, I'm that guy.
I had no idea.
I'm that guy.
We don't really know if he was that guy.
But I do think that when people come to therapy and see you can hear the way that they're telling a story.
Sometimes, again, you want to help people look at themselves.
Because I can't change what other people are doing out there, right?
So, even if they're not the toxic friend, there are things that they can do to determine how much of it is them and how much of it is the other person.
And so that's what we really work on is you know?
Here are some things you know, like what do you think made the other person do this?
Why do you think the other person is distancing themselves from you?
What do you think might have happened?
So many people are getting ghosted nowadays.
I do not like that people ghost people.
I think that you should tell people, no matter how hard it is, why you've decided.
No, I've noticed this since you asked.
You are much more willing to be like, you should sit down and talk to this person about it.
I'm kind of like...
I don't know that I would sit down and tell that person that thing.
Like I think you have a very admirable willingness to talk about hard things face-to-face with people.
And I think in real life it's just people a lot of times want to walk away rather than engage, even though engagement would probably be the more respectful and constructive thing to do.
It's just hard to have those conversations.
I think it's just so cruel to leave people wondering.
That's a way to think about it.
You're not sparing their feelings by not having that conversation.
You're protecting yourself.
You're protecting yourself from discomfort.
Which is true.
And I think that, look, if you are going to spend 10 minutes telling somebody, hey, you know what?
This is what's going on and this is what's been bothering me.
And the person's not willing to change, whatever that is.
And then you distance yourself.
They know why now.
And so you spent 10 minutes of your life feeling uncomfortable, having a difficult conversation, as opposed to the hours weeks months, years that the other person will sit wondering why did that friend abandon me?
I still have no idea.
So I say spend 10 minutes being uncomfortable.
Be kind.
Be kind. forthright and honest.
And the other person will do what they do with that information.
But at least you didn't leave them with those unanswered questions.
Because people come to therapy and they tell me, this person ghosted me and I don't know why.
And honestly, I can guess, but I don't know why either.
So I'm guessing, but it's so much better if that person had given them the information, even if they decided they didn't want the friendship anymore.
Now my patient and I can work on the thing, right?
And now that person can do something different in her other friendships or his other friendships, that will really help that person.
So you're doing them a favor by giving them this information.
And even if 5% of it is true, there's still 5% that they can work on.
Yeah.
And Lori, what about male friendships?
I notice my husband isn't nearly as concerned with having friends or investing in friendships as I am.
And it causes me stress because I want him to have friends.
I worry he doesn't have enough emotional connections.
Many women have this experience.
What are your observations about male friendship?
Yeah.
Well, I think it's really true.
When I see men who come in to therapy, they will say to me, all the time, this sentence.
I've never told anyone this before.
And they mean it.
That's very literal.
They could have a great marriage.
They can have friends.
They can have good family.
But they just don't talk about this stuff with their friends.
So even if they have friends, they're kind of not really having the same kind of conversations that women often do, that kind of bring that connection and that intimacy and that closeness.
And when women say that I've never told anyone this before, then they'll say something like you know, except for my mother, my sister, my best friend.
They know, but no one else knows.
So there's one, two, three people that might know.
So they're not totally alone with what they're experiencing.
I think we need to be really active in helping men to feel comfortable talking about stuff that maybe the culture says or their upbringing says you're not allowed to talk about because you're a guy.
And so when I see couples in therapy, often it'll be like a woman might say to her husband I really want you to tell me what's going on.
I want you to open up to me.
I want to really connect with you.
And if he does...
And if he starts to maybe tear up or even cry, she ends up with this kind of dilemma of I don't feel safe when you're not sharing with me because I don't feel close to you, but I also don't feel safe when you're crying.
And I know that's my problem.
That's not your problem.
It's good that you're telling me how you feel, but it's weird that I'm uncomfortable with it, right?
So I think that we need to be aware, as women, what can we do to make sure that the men in our lives feel comfortable sharing, talking about the kinds of things that all humans need to talk about?
But do men maybe, or some people, like a different kind of friendship?
Like they have kind of a wordless closeness where it's not about confiding emotions but it's more about spending time together and just feeling like somebody's got your back and it's not so face-to-face, it's more side-to-side.
Yes, and I think we need to respect that and not try to make men have the same kinds of friendships that women have.
So as the mom of a boy, I've learned a lot about this.
And so my son with his friends.
They can have a really close friendship and feel really close to each other because they played basketball together for years and they had whatever experiences that they had together.
And when there's a disagreement, I've noticed that when – girls his age have a disagreement.
There's a summit meeting about it and everybody's got to talk about it and everybody's got to deal with each other's feelings about it.
And the guys get over it, you know, like, OK, that happened or I didn't like that.
And, you know, they go and they hang out together and everything's fine.
And it's not like they're sweeping it under the rug.
It.
Just they process it differently.
It kind of lands differently and sits differently inside of them.
And I'm making sweeping generalizations here.
So obviously there are differences amongst individuals versus gender.
But I think in general that men have very special friendships but we as women say oh, but that's not the kind of friendship that would feel special to me.
Yeah.
And so we need to understand that.
But that is a friendship that feels special to them.
So we don't need to worry about the fact that they're not having the kinds of friendships that I'm having.
That's different from they don't have any friends.
Right.
That's not good.
Right.
But if they're having a different kind of friendship with their male friends, then that's great.
Yeah.
So much in life is just letting other people do what they want to do.
Yeah.
This is Elizabeth.
And it's harsh.
This is Elizabeth's mantra.
I try to make up my mantra.
What is it exactly?
How do you word it? everybody should do exactly what they want or something?
Yeah, I think that's what it was.
But I think I, as you're talking, I'm like, oh shoot, I forgot about that mantra.
I need to re-engage with my mantra.
We've got so many mantras now.
Well, coming up, we're going to hear Lori's try this at home suggestion, but first this break.
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Okay, we are back with Lori.
Yes, Lori, we cannot let you leave without giving us a Try This at Home suggestion for listeners.
What is a concrete, manageable thing that you would suggest that people try as part of their everyday life to make themselves happier healthier, more productive or more creative?
One thing that I find really useful is to help people to ruminate less.
Yes.
Because I think what happens is we're always thinking about something that happened, something that happened in the past, something that will happen in the future.
That hasn't happened yet, but we're sure it's going to happen, or we're worried it's going to happen.
I call that anticipatory anxiety.
We catastrophize.
Catastrophizing.
Yeah.
Yes.
Melissa is very good at catastrophizing.
Oh, I am too.
We all are.
I mean, I think many of us are.
So I think that, it doesn't really serve us to kind of ruminate endlessly.
It's not helping us make a decision, make a better choice, do something about the problem.
So what I suggest to people is, if you tell them not to ruminate, that's really hard because they're going to think about it.
So what I like to do is I say, exactly.
And then that's all you think about.
So can you make an appointment with yourself, a rumination appointment, where you make the appointment and I wouldn't do it first thing in the morning.
I would do it later in the day, because in the morning you're gonna be busy, you're gonna start your life, you're gonna do your things.
Later in the day, when you start, kind of your mind starts wandering.
You're gonna get into that rumination mode, Maybe it's you know.
For you it's three o'clock, it's five o'clock, whatever it might be.
And you get 10 minutes and 10 minutes might not sound like much.
It's actually a very long time because you're forcing yourself to just ruminate on that one thing.
You can't think of other things.
You just have to sit there with that one thing and you're going to get so sick of yourself.
You're going to get so sick of thinking about this problem.
You're going to be like, oh my gosh, seven minutes have passed.
I have to do 10 more and you have to do the whole 10 minutes.
This is like a dark meditation.
Right, right.
I have always say that people schedule time to worry, which is when you can sit down with a pad and paper and worry about everything going on.
But this is really specifically like ruminating on one thing.
So it is like a dark meditation where you're supposed to keep the focus.
Right.
And you can only ruminate on that one thing and go for it.
You know, these are all the horrible things that are going to happen.
This is what you go to all those dark places and you have to do it for 10 minutes.
And you, if you do that every day, you are going to be like, I'm done with this.
You know, like after a few days, you're like, okay, that was enough.
I'm done with this.
This is not moving me forward in any way.
I don't want to think about this anymore.
It's not serving me.
And you move on.
And You have your rumination appointment, 10 full minutes, not one second less.
I love this try this at home suggestion.
This is very counterintuitive, I have to say, but I can see how it would be so effective.
But then also, Lori, you have to say that everyone should be listening to the SenseUS podcast.
That would make them.
That would be another concrete thing that they could do.
Listen to SenseUS.
You and I, Gretchen, we actually get good advice from our listeners too.
So it's really interesting that you and I sometimes have a different perspective on things.
And sometimes our listeners do.
But in the end, there's always concrete advice.
And I think that's so comforting to say, here's something concrete you can try.
Go try it.
Let us know how it went.
And then to hear how it went, we all learn something every week.
So I hope that listeners will tune in.
Yeah.
Yes.
And I'm definitely going to send in a question.
Good.
Anonymously.
Because I have to see if I can spot it.
Yes.
Anonymously.
Well, thank you, Lori.
This is so fun.
Thank you so much for having me.
I love your podcast.
And thank you for all that you guys are doing to me. people happier too.
Thank you.
Bye.
Bye, Lori.
And the resource for this week.
I'm just going to remind everybody if you want those book plates, order them soon, because they need to be physically mailed and I do not want to disappoint anyone.
You can request them at happiercast.com slash book plates.
And speaking of books, whether they have a book plate or not, Elizabeth, what are you reading?
I am still reading The British Are Coming by Rick Atkinson.
And I'm reading A Weekend in New York by Benjamin Markovits.
And that's it for this episode of Hopier.
Remember to try this at home.
If you have rumination, try Lori's suggestion of doing the 10-minute rumination.
Let us know if you tried it and if it worked for you.
Thank you to our guest, Lori Gottlieb.
Listen to her new podcast with Gretchen, Since You Asked, or read her books.
Like, maybe you should talk to someone.
Thank you to our executive producer, Chuck Reed, and everyone at Lemonada.
And here's your rhyming reminder.
It's a classic.
If you like the show, tell others you know.
Until next week, I'm Elizabeth Kraft.
And I'm Gretchen Rubin.
Thanks for joining us Onward and Upward.
Elizabeth, I see that you've swapped your background for recording.
Like now you're facing away from your desk instead of facing toward your desk.
Yes and Gretchen, it's all because of you and your epiphany that I needed to get rid of my big desktop monitor.
Yes.
Because now I have this nice looking background, whereas before it would have just been a big monitor.
So thank you again for that.
I love to clear your clutter.
From the Onward Project.
Hi, Gretchen, Craig Robinson, and my little sister Michelle here.
We host a new podcast called IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson.
We know you're the queen of giving advice, so we wanted to get a few tips from you.
You know, Gretchen, a lot of our listeners are going through some major life changes.
What advice do you have for folks who are trying to stay grounded in the midst of major life transitions?
Craig and Michelle, I am so happy to be talking to you.
Here are a few questions that might help us gain perspective.
So consider questions like this.
What activities take up my time but are not particularly useful or stimulating for me?
Do I spend a lot of time on something that's important to someone else but is not very important to me?
If I could magically change one habit in my life, what would I choose?
And here's a question.
Would I like to have more time in solitude restorative solitude or would I like to have more time with friends?
You know, just thinking about questions like this can help us start to figure out how we might make our lives happier.
With greater self-knowledge, we're better able to make hard decisions that reflect ourselves, our own nature, our own interests, our own values.
In my own case, I have found that the more my life reflects my nature, the happier I get and the more grounded I feel when I'm going through a period of major change or transition.
For more great advice, search for IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson wherever you get podcasts.
You can listen to Issa Rae on letting go of certain friendships, Kiki Palmer on why disappointment is actually the key to career success, Seth and Lauren Rogan on caring for aging parents, and so many more.
