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market. Hello and welcome to Happier, a podcast where we talk about ideas for becoming happier.
This week, we'll talk about why you might set a tripwire and, relatedly, why sometimes we need to ask ourselves, do I need more time or do I need to make a decision?
I'm Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness, good habits, secrets of adulthood, and human nature.
I'm in my little home office in New York City and joining me today from Los Angeles is my sister Elizabeth Kraft. And Elizabeth, you have many secrets of adulthood that you've shared with me.
That's me, Elizabeth Kraft, a TV writer and producer living in LA.
And Gretchen, I don't know if you can see, but I'm wearing my Onward and Upward shirt today.
I love it. That's so fun.
Yeah. Before we dive in, a few updates.
Our listener Tori made an important correction to my description of the excellent Murderbot Diaries book series by Martha Wells.
I refer to the main character, the private security cyborg Murderbot, as he him, but as Murderbot itself points out repeatedly in the series, it is an it.
I misspoke. I will get it right from now on.
And also speaking of Murderbot, there is now a TV show called Murderbot on Apple Plus, which I am absolutely dying to watch. I love the Murderbot series.
And Gretchen, speaking of great books, you have something to share about Read 25 Day.
Yes, I am so thrilled to be partnering with Bookshop .org for Read 25 Day.
We are teaming up as part of the Read 25 in 25 challenge to host a nationwide gathering on Wednesday, June 25th, get a 25, for a special 25 -minute silent reading experience, which we hope will spark some lively follow -up conversation about the books we love and the joy of reading and recommendations.
It's going to be super fun.
And if you want to join us, you can participate by finding a local bookstore event.
There are so many bookstores who are signing up to host events.
you can get the link in the show notes.
You can host your own reading get together.
That would be really fun.
And you could read 25 minutes on your own wherever you are.
And all reading counts, of course.
So just participate.
You can dive into a novel, read a magazine, do e -reading, lose yourself in an audio book.
All forms of reading are welcome.
You can pledge to read 25 on June 25th and head to happiercast .com slash read 25 day to learn more More about how you can be part of the biggest reading event of the year.
I cannot wait. Yeah, I've got to look at the local L .A.
listings. Yes, there are many in California.
I've seen them. And then our listener Lauren commented on the Summer of Blank.
She said, I love the Design Your Summer and the Summer of Blank frameworks.
I've been really enjoying a twist on the summer reading that I wanted to share with you.
For the last several years, every summer I read celebrity memoirs.
An added bonus of the celebrity memoirs is I usually end the summer with a list of new, well, often old shows and movies I want to watch that celebrity perform in.
It's a good way to learn about interesting things to watch that I might not otherwise have thought of.
Well, I thought that was a great idea because whenever I read a celebrity memoir, it just sends you off to try to look up stuff that you haven't seen yet or to rewatch or reread things that you once did.
I thought that was such a fun reminder.
Yeah. And I want to note, Gretchen, that when you're reading celebrity memoirs, a lot of times it's fun to listen because the celebrity reads it.
You know, Rob Lowe, Sally Field, whoever it may be.
And it's fun to hear their voice.
Bruce Springsteen, I listened to his autobiography and that was fantastic.
And then it makes you want to go listen to that music.
Yes. And then my summer of sundoku is underway, and I want you to think of the summer as being T .S.
It's my summer of sundoku.
I am now only reading off of my shelf and my current library books, so wish me luck.
I want to clear off some shelves this summer.
I'm excited. Yay. Grouch, we want to mention that we are doing a very special episode on Whimsy.
Oh, yeah. ways to introduce an element of whimsy into everyday life.
So we are looking for ideas.
Yeah. Throw us your ideas.
Everybody can use a little bit of whimsy these days.
So we are going to spend a whole episode just focusing on whimsy.
And this week, our Try This At Home suggestion is if you are facing a big decision or action, whether in the future or sort of right now -ish, you set a tripwire.
And Gretchen, explain what a tripwire is, a metaphoric tripwire.
Well, literally, a tripwire is a wire that you trip over.
So it's a wire that's stretched low to the ground that triggers a mechanism like a trap or an alarm when it's touched or stepped on.
So that is what a literal tripwire is.
And metaphorically, it's a predefined condition or trigger that prompts a specific action or decision.
And the reason why setting a tripwire can be a good idea is, here's a couple of my secrets of adulthood that it addresses.
One is, something that can be done at any time is often done at no time.
So sometimes if you don't have a tripwire, you just push and push and push, and something never gets done.
done. Or the secret of adulthood is that not deciding is a decision and not choosing is a choice.
And sometimes it's easy not to realize that we're not deciding or not choosing and we're just letting time pass.
And sometimes the mere passage of time means that you are choosing and that you are deciding, but you're not doing it intentionally.
So setting a tripwire is a way to to mitigate the dangers that can sometimes happen when we haven't set a tripwire for a decision or action.
So Gretchen, what's a classic example of setting a tripwire?
Well, you know me, everything relates to the office for me.
I'm always like saying, oh, this is what's seen from the office is an allusion to this.
And there is a scene in the office where the whole idea is that Holly, who is Michael Scott's love of his life, she's dating a guy, AJ, and she tells the office is that she has set him a deadline to propose.
She wants him to propose by, I think, January 1st. And Michael is on tenterhooks because he's like, oh my gosh, are they gonna get engaged?
Are they not gonna get engaged?
What's gonna happen?
But then what happens is that he doesn't propose and she doesn't take action.
And she actually says, well, it wasn't fair of me to give him an ultimatum.
But that is what a tripwire is in that situation, which is like, I either wanna be engaged by January 1st or else I wanna break up.
If you want something to happen at a certain time and you want to sort of force events, setting a tripwire is one way to do it.
But in that case, she did not go by her own tripwire.
That's part of the key is you have to then follow through.
You have to follow through.
You have to hold yourself to it.
Now, spoiler alert, in the office it all works out okay.
But yes, she lets it slide and kind of makes excuses for him.
And that's exactly the wrong way to use a tripwire because a tripwire is something that you make in advance with a cool, calm head saying, well, I think that it's realistic for me to think that by X date, either something should have happened or I need to make a decision.
It's a kind of forcing mechanism.
And it only works if you don't then give yourself a big excuse or allow others off the hook.
If you decided in that cool, calm, advanced state for your future self, this is what is the best for my future self.
When it becomes your present self, you got to hold yourself to it.
Yeah. I think the classic example of this is with clothes.
You know, everyone's always talking about how to decide what to keep and what to give away.
And I think a lot of people set a tripwire, if I haven't worn this in a year, I am going to give it away.
Yeah. And the stakes are small in that case, but it's just a way to give oneself a decision in the future.
As you said, you're making a decision for your future self.
It's really a way of making a decision, but there's something about the word tripwire where it sounds more like an action just automatically follows.
follows, like an alarm goes off.
You know, it's not just, oh, I'm going to quietly make a decision.
It feels like action will happen, that something will explode or snap up or something.
I did this with my gym membership.
So for years, I was a member of a gym and it was really part of my identity that I was somebody who belonged to a gym and I was somebody who went to the gym all the time.
But then like things changed and I had joined a gym, which now having written Life in and five senses, I realized that the real problem with that gym was that it was so rackety.
It was so loud that I think that is what actually drove me away from the gym.
But at the time, I didn't understand that.
I was just like, I love going walking in Central Park, and I never feel like going to the gym.
And I'm not going, and I'm not going, and I'm not going.
And then I finally said, I set a tripwire saying, okay, by the end of the month, if I haven't started using it regularly, I will cancel.
So again, it's kind of like a deadline, but it felt like more like a deadline.
and it felt more like if this, then that will follow.
And then I felt compelled to get rid of my membership.
Well, I'm remembering, Gretchen, I feel like Sarah set a very immediate tripwire for me once when I was first in LA, I did not have a car, which you can imagine what a hassle that was.
And Sarah had to drive me all the time.
And one time she called me and said, I saw balloons at Volkswagen, I'm picking you up and you're going to buy a car.
And I felt like Like she was the trip wire.
Right, right, right, right.
She was setting it and she was informing me of it and she was then tripping it off.
So then I did in fact go get a car.
There you do. Yeah, right.
She just helped you like just blow through it.
Now it can be complicated because you might change your mind.
And then that way it could show you what you really want.
If you get there and you're like, actually, I don't want this.
Like, actually, I do want to stay belonging to the gym.
But then it's like, okay, well, is action following from that?
because you don't want to say, oh, I've changed my mind, but you're just like Holly where you're pretending like you're changing your mind because you really want to avoid conflict or decision -making.
So this is a tool. It's an obvious place for reflection.
You can change your mind, but make sure that you're truly changing your mind.
You're not letting yourself off the hook.
I think the tripwire thing is very common in Hollywood.
I mean, it's often age -related.
People will say, you know, if I haven't made it by this birthday, I'm going to go pursue something else.
So I'm going to move cities.
There's a great taxi episode, the show Taxi, where Bobby Wheeler is an actor.
He's in New York. But he said, if I don't make it by, I believe it was his 30th birthday, then I'm going to give up acting.
And he's so sure that he's going to make it, that he's going to get that one big call from his agent that changes everything.
thing. He invites his all of his friends over to wait for the phone to ring.
And then it hits midnight and it hasn't rung.
And so then he says, oh, you know what?
Forget it. I think I'll give it three more years or whatever he says.
So that's a right example of him changing his mind.
But I think that's pretty common in Hollywood.
And I think a lot of people actually go through with it.
I think if they haven't made it, they do go pursue a whole different career.
Well, and that's when it can be helpful, which is you're like, I want to give it a try, but I don't I want to mindfully decide how much of a try I want to give it.
But here is a key thing about tripwires is that you have to remember that the passage of time itself makes it hard to undo certain kinds of decisions.
And so when you're setting a tripwire, you want to make sure that you set it in the right place and you're taking into consideration everything that might be affecting you.
Because I do think that a danger of a tripwire is you're like, oh, three years from now, I'll do it.
Then you're like, well, I don't need to worry about it because the tripwire is three years away.
But the clock is still ticking and things are changing.
changing. And I think of this because a friend of mine, she and her husband, she really wanted to live in New York City.
He really wanted to live in Minneapolis.
And they did this, they did that, they did this, they did that.
They had little kids.
And then he said, okay, let's just move to Minneapolis for a couple of years.
And if you don't like it, then I agree, we'll move back to New York City.
She agreed to it. But what she didn't take into account is the tripwire that they had set together didn't take into account that like, now her kids are in school and it's it's going to be much harder to move.
And I feel like her partner kind of did that deliberately, set it up so that she would be like, okay, it's fine because at a certain point we can renegotiate this.
But she hadn't thought about how much life would set around them and make that so much more disruptive.
And I think he actually took advantage of that.
He kind of ran out the clock on her because at a certain point, certain things just become much harder to do.
So if you you are using a tripwire, you want to be very mindful of it.
And another thing is if something is truly a deal breaker, like if she had said, I want to live in New York City and that's a deal breaker for me, you want to hit a deal breaker sooner rather than later.
Because if the deal is going to be broken, probably you don't want to spend a lot of time on something if in the end it's going to fall apart.
And so you want to confront the fact that something's a deal breaker.
I think a lot of times people sort of think like, well, I'm so obviously right that with the passage of time, the other person's going to come see it my way.
Yes. Where a lot of times they do, but a lot of times they do not, you know, and you want to get to that point sooner rather than later.
So that's, again, another aspect of the tripwire.
It's a useful tool, but you don't want to use it in the wrong way.
Yeah. I think so many of us just have decision fatigue, don't like making decisions.
So anything you can do to help is worth it.
Absolutely. Well, let us know know if you do try this at home and if you've set a tripwire in your life what context you you set a tripwire in and how it worked for you.
Let us know on instagram threads tiktok facebook drop us an email at podcast at gretchenrubin .com or as always you can go to the show notes this is happiercast .com slash 538.
Coming up we've got a clutter clearing hack but first this break.
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Okay, Alyssa, it's time for a happiness hack.
And you know I love a clutter -clearing hack.
I'm not sure you love them as much as I do, but we both enjoy a good clutter -clearing hack.
I think everyone does.
This comes from Andrea.
she says, I'm pretty good at clearing clutter in areas that are out in the open or frequently used, but find it harder to get motivated to clear out less used areas.
However, I realized I can get inspired if I come up with a way to repurpose the space.
For example, although my kids outgrew the craft supplies we stored on a three -tier rolling cart, I wasn't motivated to clear it until I read about using it to store books, thanks Real Simple Magazine.
Now it looks much better and I was able to donate the supplies we no longer use.
Likewise, my son's closet was filled with old games, clothes and toys and he never used it.
I realized though that he had to dig through drawers when he needed certain athletic or nice clothes.
I cleared out the closet and put that clothing on shelves.
It's easier for him to find and as a bonus, the dressy clothes don't need ironing like they did when they were stuffed into drawers.
Now I find myself going through my house coming up with new ways to use old spaces and clearing away.
Well, I thought this was just a great example of if you're not doing it just for the sheer love of clearing clutter, thinking about how you could repurpose space is really powerful.
The same way with people are like, oh, I could create a meditation area or a wonderful reading area.
Giving a place a new purpose gives you a reason to do the work of clutter clearing.
Yeah. And a little jolt of happiness.
Win -win. You've gotten rid of things Or donated things that you're not using, and now you have more room for the things you use.
That's a wonderful hack, Andrea.
Thank you. And now for a secret of adulthood.
And this is kind of related to the setting of TripWire, because it's about decision -making and moving ahead, even in the face of the pain of making a decision.
And that is my secret of adulthood.
Do you need more time, or do you need to make a decision?
decision. Yeah, and you've talked about this before, Gretchen.
You and I both have this come up a lot with buying plane tickets.
Yes, we do. It's very hard to just decide, and you keep thinking, oh, I'll figure this out.
I'll figure that out.
No, you just need to make a decision.
But here's an extremely concrete place in life where the do you need more time or do you need to make a decision comes up, and it is a very costly example, and that is storage units.
If you have storage units, say to yourself, do I really need to keep these things?
Do I need more time with these things?
Or do I need to make a decision about what to do with this stuff?
Because the statistics on storage units are bonkers.
About 33 % to 38 % of Americans currently use a self -storage unit.
So that is more than a third of people.
the average price for a standard storage unit is about $130 per month.
That is a lot of money.
And the most common reason for renting a storage unit is not having enough space at home.
So these are not people who are like, oh, well, we're doing a big renovation, so we need a place for a couple months to put our living room furniture in it.
No, this is people where they're just like, I simply don't have enough storage space in my house, so I'm going to just put a bunch of stuff in storage.
And this is true for people who have two or three bedroom homes.
So even having like a large home, people still have stuff that they put in storage and that they basically just leave there month after month.
Gretchen, Tori Spelling is famous for this.
Erin Spelling, the big producer's daughter.
Yeah. She has been drowning in the cost of her storage units.
She's talked about it on her podcast. At one point, she had up to 50 shipping container -sized storage units, an $80 ,000 bill that she couldn't pay.
It's been an ongoing saga.
She just had so much stuff.
She kept every single thing she ever had, every 90210 poster, every doll, everything in her life.
And it was crushing.
Yes. Yes. Well, there's all different reasons people have it.
But what I've observed just from talking to people is that a lot of people, it's like, there's a bunch of stuff that there's no room for, or you inherit a bunch of stuff when your parents move to assisted living, or your kids leave a bunch of stuff.
And rather than doing the hard work of deciding, do we want to keep this thing?
What do we do with it?
It was really important to my mother, but it's not important to me.
This thing doesn't fit in my house.
My kid says he doesn't care care about this thing, but maybe he will one day.
These things are so precious to me, even though they're old and dirty and tattered and full of holes, and we'll use them again.
Or here's a board game that we had so much fun with, but three of the pieces are missing, so you can't play it anymore.
A lot of this stuff just really needs to go about its day.
It needs to be donated.
It needs to be recycled or whatever.
But people will pay the money rather than make the decision.
And then it's the kind of thing where when they finally go in there and open it up, they get rid of everything.
thing. And then you're like, why did we spend all this money on all these things?
And so it's really worth doing it sooner rather than later because it's just money that you don't need to spend.
And another thing is there's something called the endowment effect, which is if we own something, we think that it's more valuable than if it's just out in the world.
Even something like a mug.
If I own a mug, I think it's more valuable than if it's just like a mug on a shelf.
And this is often true with like collectibles or artwork or that 90210 poster.
It really might be worth something or it might not.
And so the thing is, don't hold on to something with the fantasy like, oh my gosh, this is a beautiful set of fancy china that my mother got for her wedding.
Of course, it's really valuable.
Actually do the work to find it.
If you are telling yourself that something is literally monetarily valuable, find out, are you correct?
Because often people really overestimate the value of things that they own.
If you have a stamp collection and you can just look it up up online, okay, fine.
But there are a lot of things where we do tend to think and hope that things are more valuable than they actually are.
So if you're holding onto it for that reason, again, make the decision to get yourself educated as to whether something is actually valuable.
Like Tori Spelling can hire some experts to come in if that's the reason that she's holding onto it is because she thinks that one day it will be valuable.
It's like, will it one day be valuable or?
No, it won't. Yeah.
So many decisions have financial consequences, plane tickets, hotels being available.
It's almost always better to make a decision sooner rather than later.
Yeah. Yeah. Usually it only gets more expensive.
The one last secret of adulthood, and this is from my book, Outer Order, Inner Calm, it's that mementos are more valuable when they are small in size and few in number.
And a bunch of mementos that are languishing in a storage unit that you you haven't visited in five years is not holding onto the memories for you.
It's better to pick the three things that you can put on a bookshelf and see every day and get rid of everything in the storage unit.
That'll serve your memories better.
Point taken. Okay, and now a know yourself better question, and this is kind of related to that, which is do you own any gadgets or gizmos that you have never actually learned to use?
I went around my apartment to see if this is true.
And this is definitely true for me.
Sometimes you hear that something will be really useful so you get it, but then when you pull out the manual, you think, eh, I'll figure it out later.
And then you never do.
At least that's what I find that I do sometimes.
Well, Gretch, I was thinking about this in terms of me.
And you know what? Those aren't the kinds of things that I like to buy.
So I don't really have a lot of these.
Ah, like gadgets and gizmos.
I don't enjoy gadgets and gizmos.
So I'm more likely to have a sweater I haven't worn.
I'm not that likely to have some sort of tech thing or device that I haven't used.
I will say I do like to buy hair tools, but I usually use them right away.
I don't think I have any hair tools that I have never used.
Interesting. See, because, you know, you and I are both underbuyers, but I will say that I will sometimes buy something like a label maker because I think, oh, this will be so useful.
Or like one thing I bought because I just was so enchanted by them is they're like stickers that you could put on a jar that somehow have the surface that allows you to write with them in chalk.
So it's like having a chalkboard surface on a jar.
And when I saw these, I thought, these are so fun.
And I didn't stop and say, do I have any jars that need to have labels put on them?
And the answer is, no, I do not.
And so I have it, and I just kind of enjoy having it, but it's not something that I actually needed.
Yeah, and I had a glue stick that would allow you to turn any piece of paper into a sticky note, but, like, I have so many sticky notes.
I don't need that. That's just a gadget that, again, I thought, like, it's really cool that this thing exists, but I don't need it.
And so I really am trying to be much better with myself now.
You know how they always say with clothes, say to yourself, yourself would I put this on tomorrow or is this just something I think oh this thing could come in handy and so really saying am I buying a label maker because it truly fulfills a need for me or is it just something that seems useful now every once in a while you will find that something really does come in useful one of the things I have is a paper cutter these things are dangerous right so I had to keep it basically under lock and key while my kids were little I've had it forever.
But sometimes you really need a paper slicer and then it's exactly what you need.
And then because of my watercolor, I had bought all this big watercolor paper and I realized I actually like being on smaller watercolor paper.
So I felt so satisfied when I'm like, oh, I have just the tool that I need and I'm going to slice up my paper and make it in just the right size.
So every once in a while, you're like, this is amazing.
I have just what I need.
But by the way, I could have just got a paper cutter at that moment if I needed it, or I could have just used scissors.
it's not that big a deal.
But I think that going around your house and looking for these things is a useful way to clear clutter.
And it also is a great know yourself better question, because if you have bought something and haven't used it, you get insight into yourself like me, like, oh, a lot of these things are related to sort of orderliness, because of course, I love orderliness, but they serve a function that I don't actually need.
Well, it's your fantasy.
It's a fantasy fantasy self.
It's a fantasy self with jars all lined up perfectly that say, like, rice and peas, but I'm like, it's a glass jar.
You can see it's rice.
You can see it's peas.
It doesn't need a label.
In fact, you can, with all your gadgets and gizmos, you can set a trip wire.
And if I haven't used this thing by X date, I'm going to donate it.
So that's a good use of a trip wire.
Yes. Okay, Gretch, coming up, I am giving myself, I guess, a decision -making demerit.
But first, this break.
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Okay, it's time for Demerits and Gold Stars.
And this is an even -numbered episode, Elizabeth.
So it's your turn to talk about a demerit.
Well, Gretchen, my demerit is that I have not figured out when I am going to Kansas City this summer.
I just, you know, we always go in the summer.
My brain has just not been able to focus and figure out dates.
And, you know, with the decision making thing we were talking about, plane tickets get more expensive when you don't buy them because the lesser priced ones are gone.
So I really need to figure this out.
This is interesting, Alyssa, because for the last several Christmases.
You have been really on top of it way in advance and I'm always trailing after you.
But I guess the summertime for whatever reason just is harder.
This summer is. I just feel very discombobulated this summer.
Well maybe now that you've talked about it you'll be inspired to go figure it out.
Yeah. You and I both we talk about this all the time.
We do not like figuring out the dates and the plane tickets.
It's not our favorite thing.
No one does. I think some people don't mind it the way we do.
Oh, really? Oh, interesting.
Yeah. But it must be done.
Scheduling is life.
Scheduling is life.
All right, Gretch, what is your gold star?
Okay. I am giving a gold star to a product that now that we have our puppy taffy, we are now back in the world of puppy -dom and puppy products.
And that got us focused on buying toys.
And there is a kind of toy that I did not know existed.
I don't know when these things came onto the market.
Certainly with our dog, Pattywack, growing up, I had never seen these.
And even with Barnaby, I was not aware of these existed.
Maybe somebody just kind of came up with this idea.
But they are snuffle mats.
And a snuffle mat, it's like a mat.
It usually has a theme like bakery or carrot patch or whatever.
And there'll be a bunch of pockets and fabric and things where you can hide treats.
And you tuck them in these inaccessible places.
And then the dog snuffles through and has to snuffle them out and then dig them out.
And they're often hard for them to get at.
And oh, my gosh, Eliza bought one of these for Taffy.
And she absolutely loves it.
And so then we got another one for Barnaby.
And he really loves it.
And it's just this dog love of snuffling and ferreting out some little treat.
And I went online to learn more about them.
Apparently, it's good.
It slows their eating.
If you have a dog that eats too much or too fast, It reduces anxiety, gives them a little bit of exercise because they're up and snuffling.
And when we have to put Taffy in her pen, because since she's a puppy, we don't let her just wander around the apartment.
She's very happy in there because she's just busy snuffling away.
Now, listen, have you tried this?
Speaking of gadgets and gizmos, now that you mention it, this is something I actually bought and haven't used.
Oh. So I'm going to go dig that out of wherever I got it.
and it's because i remember that like mental stimulation is as important as physical stimulation or you know as valuable for dogs and so this really i think does a lot of mental stimulation so i'm glad you brought this up because this is a gizmo i got and didn't use right well it's such a clever idea i was so like what is this thing i'm like this is a really really good idea but the other thing is you don't actually even need to buy it what we found is that you could just use a towel.
Like if you just give like a bath towel and just fold it up and turn it around and wad it up with little treats sprinkled through the folds, then that acts like a snuffle pad too.
But it's kind of not as fun as the little carrot patch one.
My dogs would have the treats out of that towel in less than 10 seconds, I assure you.
Maybe that works for a puppy, but not for a full grown corgi on a mission.
Yeah. Well, the resource for this week, if you want a quick, fun way to get it in the spirit of summer.
This month in the Happier app, we have added a special summer edition.
One of my favorite features, spin the wheel.
This is the feature that everybody likes the best. From now until June 30th, every spin gives you a fun, quick idea to get into the spirit of summer.
So you just open the Happier app, or you can download it at thehappierapp .com, and spin the wheel on the home screen.
So if you're looking for ways to design your summer, here are some ideas.
Cool. And Elizabeth, what are we reading?
What are you reading?
I'm reading Little Bosses Everywhere, How the Pyramid Scheme Shaped America by Bridget Reid.
And I am reading A Chance Meeting, Intertwined Lives of American Writers and Authors by Rachel Cohen.
And that's it for this episode of Happier.
Remember to try this at home.
Set up a tripwire for an important action or decision.
Let us know if you've tried it or if you've tried it in the the past and how it worked for you.
Thank you to our executive producer, Chuck Reed, and everyone at Lemonada.
And here's your rhyming reminder, if the show brightens your day, send others our way.
Until next week, I'm Elizabeth Craft. And I'm Gretchen Rubin.
Thanks for joining us Onward and Upward. it so listen i always forget just how i mean i don't want to say destructive nacho and daisy are but like they can really tear through stuff oh yeah i mean if we give them a dog toy it's fluff everywhere in two minutes yeah well i'll be curious to hear how they respond onto the snuffle pad.
Probably enthusiastically, but it's maybe not used that many times before it has to be retired.
Exactly. From the Onward Project.