If you're listening to Roundtable, I'm Niu Haolin.
Coming up soon.
I'm very excited to introduce a brand new podcast focusing on one of the most influential ancient Chinese philosophers in history.
What's more fun about this new show is that, on top of inspiring little stories from the time-tested classic, we are also giving it a modern twist.
So stay tuned to find out more.
2,000 years ago, a Chinese philosopher asked a simple but unsettling question.
How do you know you're awake and not dreaming?
How to tell reality from imagination?
His name was Zhuangzi.
He wrote about giant fish turning into birds, useless trees that survive precisely because they're useless, and a man who dreamed he was a butterfly, only to wake up unsure which one was real.
Today, Zhuangzi is often quoted, rarely really understood and almost never debated the way he deserves to be.
So who was chuang tzu?
A mystique, a rebel?
A comedian disguised as a philosopher?
And why do his ideas about freedom, uncertainty and letting go feel strangely modern in a world obsessed with control and certainty?
Welcome to Sage and Youth debating Zhuangzi's Tao, a new podcast that we're rolling out, and I'm very happy to present it on Roundtable today.
I am your host, and in this first episode I'm joined by Professor Hong Li from the Communication University of China.
Together we'll unpack who Zhuangzi really was, what he was arguing against and why his voice still matters, especially for young people navigating pressure, identity and constant comparison today.
This is where ancient stories meet modern minds.
Please enjoy.
Today we're very happy to welcome Professor Hong Li to our show to give a brief introduction about who Zhuangzi is.
We're starting this new podcast and we're eager to know the life story, the main philosophy, the main ideas and also the influence of Zhuangzi to today's world, today's Chinese culture.
So welcome, Miss Hong.
Thank you for giving me such an opportunity to meet the audience.
I'm a teacher from Communication University of China.
Basically, I'm teaching Chinese traditional culture based on ancient philosophy.
Chinese students and also some foreign students found it very interesting to get to know Chinese philosophy.
I understand you have quite the experience talking to foreign scholars, students and visitors a lot actually and introducing them to Chinese philosophy, Chinese culture and Chinese people's way of thinking.
So do they know Zhuangzi, the majority of your foreign friends?
I would say that they all know Zhuangzi.
Zhuangzi's ideas from Laozi.
So they have heard of Laozi, about Tao or Tao.
The majority will say Confucian teaching is very practical, pragmatic in a word.
And Taoist teaching is more about spiritual kind of pursuits.
It teaches us how to follow the natural law.
Then they heard of like doing and non-doing or action and non-action.
When I ask them what's the characteristics of Zhuang or Zhuang's philosophy, most of them know some of the stories, like the Kun Peng, the big and the small, and about Zhuang Zhou's dreaming of the butterfly and also the happiness of the fish.
And they all know that.
It's a big surprise to me.
It is possible that our podcast will open to millions of listeners out there.
It is possible that some of them would not know who Zhuangzi was, like having no clue.
So, for those who do not know who was Zhuangzi, how would you introduce this great philosopher in Chinese history?
Zhuangzi can trace down and he is a real person.
Zhuangzi was born in the time of the great political and also the philosophical upheaval and firmness.
So known as this period, we call it the Warring States Period.
At that time.
We have various schools, such as Confucianism Mohism Legalism, Logicians and Yin-Yang School and Taoism.
So debates and exchanges between these schools made a great contribution to a flourishing culture.
So this period is also called the flourishing of 100 schools of thoughts.
And Zhuangzi, his record can be found from a book of historic recording.
So I would quote a few lines.
Zhuangzi was a native of a town called Meng and his escape name was Zhuangzhou.
He once served as official in the lacquer garden in this Meng place.
He's absorbed the most part of Laozi's legacy, and which can be understood as a pursuit of simplicity and be always well-being, in accordance with nature.
A lot of people believe that Zhuangzi is a really good writer with style.
He's very imaginative.
He tells a lot of really good stories.
And if you have to pick one story that represents Zhuangzi the best, which story would you pick?
Well, let me just choose one of the most popular ones.
And everybody talking about Zhuang Zhou dreaming of the butterfly.
Of course.
That is actually a really good story.
And we have the story here.
So let's first take a listen to the story so that our listeners would know what we're talking about.
And then maybe you can give them your understanding about the story.
On a cozy, sunny afternoon, Dranzo woke up from a nap and stretched his arms.
With a breeze blowing in his face, he was really relaxed and felt his body was so light.
As he attempted to get up, he lost his balance and thought he was going to fall.
He tried to find balance, but he found himself flipping in the air and even heard the soft sound of flapping wings.
What's happening?
Johnson went to a crescent-shaped lake briskly and peered down at his reflection in the water.
It was then that he realised he had turned into a blue butterfly with iridescent wings that had black edges and yellow eye-pots.
He blinked at his reflection and flapped his wings a couple of times to confirm what he saw.
But he didn't have time to question anything as he smelled enchanting fragrances.
Jones was thrilled.
This was amazing scents of daisies, tulips, and orchids, he thought.
My favorite flowers, and they are pretty close to me.
Wow, it's time for a feast.
If someone happened to witness it, he or she might notice a chubby butterfly racing down clumsily to a large flower garden, guided by the fragrance of flowers.
Once there, Trunks' eyes lit up and his mouth became watery, amid an ocean of flowers with sweet nectar.
He had no idea where to start.
So big was this wonderland with vibrant colours and enchanting flowers Fragrances.
Johnson was completely immersed in the garden and everything around him became dreamy and surreal.
He flew around, hopped between flowers and soared into the air ecstatically.
After playing so for a while, he was a bit tired.
He lay down on a petal and drank nectar using a cup made from a leaf.
Suddenly he heard a beautiful song.
It was so pleasant and soothing.
He couldn't wait to find out where that melodious voice came from.
In a hurry, he dropped his cup.
Several feet away he spotted a lovely lady butterfly making a garland, as she sat on the edge of a fountain.
He shook his wings and brushed his ternacles to make himself presentable before flying over to her.
He even picked a rose on his way and held it in his mouth.
Hello, sweet lady.
Please allow me to introduce myself and hopefully I didn't interrupt your lovely day.
My name is Zhuangzi.
It is my first time visiting this garden and I love the ravishing flowers and fresh air here.
And most importantly, I really like your singing.
The lady butterfly wasn't surprised when she heard the compliment.
She smiled and put down the garland she was making.
Hello, I'm Faye.
I guess it's a family talent, as my mum and grandma are both professional singers.
But it's just my hobby.
It's great to have some company.
I've been here for nearly an hour and haven't seen anyone.
My neck is a bit sore and I want to stretch a bit.
Would you like to dance?
Tronza was overwhelmed with joy and his heart skipped a beat.
He held the lady butterfly gently with his trembling wings.
They danced cheerfully in the air to the tune of the lady butterfly singing.
Dranz was really excited.
He wanted to make an impressive move, but when he was about to spin, he stumbled and fell.
What's worse, he failed to regain his balance and kept falling and falling.
He flapped and flapped to get back in air, but before he could reunite with the lady butterfly, he found himself awake in a rocking chair.
After looking round curiously, he realized he'd been asleep and his wife was in the room humming the same tune that he was dancing to in a dream.
Did you have a good sleep?
You laughed while you were asleep.
What were you dreaming about?
Johnson couldn't believe it.
He lifted his arms, which felt soft and flexible, as if he still had the ability to fly.
He stared at his wife gloomily and asked, I am supposed to be a butterfly.
What happened to me?
Where are my wings?
What is this place and who are you?
His wife thought he hadn't fully woke up and was speaking nonsense.
She waved a hand fan to whip up some fresh air for her husband to You are still dreaming.
Zhuangzi was bewildered as the encounter with the lady butterfly felt so real.
He couldn't figure out which one was reality now.
Was his real identity a human being or a butterfly?
Interesting.
Between Zhuangzi and the butterfly, there must be some distinctions.
But this is the case of what is called transformation of things.
According to the translator Feng Youlan, he said this shows that, although in ordinary appearance there are differences between things, but in delusions or in dreams one thing can also be another.
So the transformation of things proves that the differences among things are not absolute.
What behind, or implied meaning behind it is that there's no such as absolute distinction between things.
But transformation of things occurs every moment.
So before listening to the story, I thought the story was about reality versus illusion, about the real things, the real world and the imaginary world.
But actually, according to a lot of different people's understanding, the fact that transformation could happen is precisely because mankind and butterfly were equal.
And that is one of the most important and actually very interesting ideas of Zhuangzi.
That is, all forms of existence are equal.
Yes.
Yeah.
It's talking about a lot about equality of all things.
So it's like a difference between the great and the small.
And people said, well, it's like another story about the big fish and then Kun Peng.
Okay, it's transformed into a bird and tried to fly.
I'm very happy to say that we have that story as well.
So let's take a listen to that story and then continue our discussion.
This is Northern Darkness.
An endless ocean in the northern tip of the world.
It was enveloped in perpetual dimness, teeming with enigmatic secrets and wonders.
It's an imagery of an otherworldly realm beyond the comprehension of ordinary understanding.
Here lived a mysterious fish named Khun.
It was so immense that its length was several thousand miles.
When it leapt out of water, it transformed into a giant bird called Hung, whose back was so long as to rival the height of Taishan Mountain.
With a leap, Hung soared spectacularly into the sky, casting a vast shadow that blanketed the land below.
When flying close to the water, its wings flapped against the surface of the ocean, beating up angry waves at a height of 3000 miles that toppled over and broke in the air.
Amid a tornado, it rode up along the swirling wind for 90000 miles into the sky, started his migration to the southernmost ocean.
Southern Darkness, riding on a south wind.
It always embarked on a journey alone and flew with confidence as the adventure ahead filled his heart with joy and exuberance.
Peng was to fulfill his mission, which no one really knew what it was.
The trip lasted for months.
But Pong didn't rest until it arrived in the southern tip.
Some sparrows became aware of the bird's approach as the sky grew darker from its shadow during the daytime.
They would find a shelter on a tree or somewhere deep inside a thick hedge.
Otherwise they would be blown away by the strong wind from Pong's beating wings.
Alert that giant bird is coming again.
Run for cover.
Move after hiding themselves in the bushes.
One sparrow wiped sweat from his forehead and sighed thanks bro for the heads up.
I don't understand why that bird has to fly back and forth each year.
And does it really need to fly up so high?
What's the point?
Isn't it exhausting?
I know?
I think it could really use some break time.
I mean, look at us.
We fly just several feet high and are able to find enough food.
Our nest is built inside shrubs that protect us from predators.
It should really consider some lifestyle changes.
I think these two stories are very similar when we're talking about transformation of things and when we talk about non-distinction among things.
Back to the great and the small.
The big bird fly high, even it's big.
And even, as the story tells, a thousand, many thousand in size and many thousand in breadth, such a big, but it is impossible for it to fly high without any kind of assistance of the wind and air.
So you see, there is a limitation of the greatness.
There's no absolute greatness.
As Guo Xiang explained, that although the great is different from the small, yet they all indulge themselves in the sphere of the self-enjoyment.
And all things follow their own nature.
They're doing according to their own capacity.
And all are what they ought to be and equally happy.
And there's no room for the distinguishing of superior and inferior.
Okay.
So sometimes, when we talk about big things and we always encourage people to have a big vision, big dream and we thought that big is better than a small.
In John's theory, the smaller things have its own happiness and don't interfere.
These stories prompts people to reconsider the definition of success, of greatness, which comes more relevant than ever in today's world.
We are living in this very fast-paced society.
We pursue over happiness over success, over material success even, and Actually, if we learn about the stories of Zhuangzi, we learn the philosophy of Zhuangzi.
We could connect with our inner self better and could find our own version of happiness and success more efficiently.
Well, more efficiently is a very modern way of talking about things.
We should not think about efficiency all the time.
But yes, that's the spirit of Zhuangzi.
Maybe, after this discussion, people who are listening to this would have a little bit of understanding of what Zhuangzi stands for.
And how come Zhuangzi is so important to Chinese philosophy, the Chinese philosophical system, as well as the entire Chinese culture in today's world.
Absolutely.
You're so right.
One thing I need to add a little bit, do not think that he's just a storyteller.
There are a lot behind the story, philosophical thinking behind it.
You can develop a holistic view of things, your mind will be elevated and you can become a better person with a big vision.
Have a better way to face the challenges or all the problems.
So sometimes the Laozi and the Zhuangzi and people say, well, they are kind of reclusive figures.
They try to avoid the men's society and they try to let go of things.
In Chinese, we call it like 出世 and 入世.
Okay.
So Confucius encouraged people to get engaged in the social affairs, to be well-educated, to be top officials and good officials.
This is ideal model of a personality.
I would say that this is a very supreme state of a human.
So, in a word, Confucius' teaching is all about everybody in the process of becoming a person, a greater self.
So back to Laozi and especially Zhuangzi, I would not agree if you label him as a chushi.
That means stay away from the society, human life, because he's so disappointed with this chaotic society.
So it's better for him to be reclusive.
No, I would not say.
Because all these stories is not about... the scenery.
It's not about nature.
It's all about the worldly story among human beings.
So I would say that implied intention of Zhuangzi, although he disappointed, he cared.
He is very much concerned about the development of human society.
So in this way, Zhuangzi is not only the follower of Laozi, he's also a follower of of Confucius.
They are both very important to understand the Chinese philosophy and Chinese culture today.
And they have both imposed great influence on today's Chinese culture as well, which is why we picked several very interesting Zhuangzi stories for our future episodes.
And for those of you who Find this episode a little bit deep, a little bit abstract and hard to understand,
Do not worry.
Our future episodes are quite straightforward.
It's about Zhuangzi's stories.
And for our young minds, who might agree with or might disagree with Zhuangzi's ideas.
They would have their understandings towards these stories theories, these ideas, and you can have yours as well.
So, for those who are listening, if we consider today's episode as a prelude, as an introduction of the future episodes, is there anything you want our listeners to keep in mind while listening to the Zhuangzi stories?
You really need to have a second thought about implied meaning behind.
I think Zhuangzi's idea is of great help, either to the individuals or to society when we talk about the governance of the state.
I would say that Zhuangzi is not pessimistic at all.
He loves life and he wants to be engaged in social affairs, but in a very unique way.
Very nice suggestion.
And for those of you who are listening, keep an open mind.
Maybe our podcast is only a key helping you to open the door to Zhang Zi's philosophy.
But if we serve that function, it is already enough.
Hope you enjoy the future episodes.
Enjoy the stories, but not only the stories the profound meaning and philosophy behind the stories as well.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you.
Did you enjoy that episode?
Well, starting from next episode, we'll still share fun little stories vividly performed by our very own voice actors but, more importantly, followed by heated debate between two Gen Z reporters.
They will take sides and they will give good enough reasons to either agree with or disagree with Zhuangzi, the ancient sage.
I cannot wait to hear their discussion.
And that brings us to the end of today's Roundtable.
We'd love to hear your thoughts on today's topics.
Leave us a comment wherever you listen to your podcast, or send us an email to roundtablepodcasts at qqcom.
I'm Niu Honglin.
Thank you for listening.
Bye-bye.
