This is Fresh Air.
I'm Terry Gross.
Today we continue our retrospective series featuring some of our favorite interviews from 2025, including this one which was recorded in October.
I guess Dwayne Johnson is a wrestling star known in the ring as The Rock.
He's won eight WWE championships, and he's a movie star.
His new movie, which he produced and stars in, is a perfect fit in which he gets to use his muscles, his fighting ability and to show what a good and nuanced actor he can be.
For anyone who may have doubted it,
It's called The Smashing Machine and it's based on the story of Mark Kerr, one of the American pioneers of mixed martial arts and of the UFC, the Ultimate Fighting Championship.
The movie is about the high of having tens of thousands of fans cheering for you, the thrill of winning and the physical pain after some fights, when muscles are torn or bones are broken and your face is smashed.
Emily Blunt plays Kerr's girlfriend in a very combustible relationship which strains under the pressures and pain of Kerr's career.
Kerr is portrayed by Johnson as incredibly powerful and vulnerable.
The paradox that, I'd imagine, characterizes many professional fighters.
Johnson plays both extremes very convincingly.
He optioned the movie and brought on Benny Safdie to direct it, and Safdie's solo directing debut without his brother, Josh.
The movie is based in part on a documentary about Mark Kerr, and many of the scenes closely follow the documentary reproducing fights and statements made by Kerr.
Dwayne Johnson's father was a pro wrestler, one of the first black stars, whose ring name was Rocky Johnson.
Dwayne Johnson's maternal grandfather was a Samoan pro wrestler and his grandmother was one of the first Samoan pro wrestling promoters.
Johnson's TV series Young Rock was based on his childhood and his family.
He also starred in the HBO series Ballers.
Johnson made his movie debut in the 2001 film The Mummy Returns.
He starred in the spinoff The Scorpion King and went on to star in two Jumanji films Fast and Furious sequels, the Disney animated film Moana and its sequel, and Black Adam.
He's hosted Saturday Night Live five times.
Dwayne Johnson, welcome to Fresh Air.
I really like this movie a lot.
Thank you, Terry.
Good to talk with you.
I read that you considered becoming a mixed martial arts fighter, but you didn't.
Why did you consider it and why did you not do it yourself?
First of all, I realized I don't like getting punched in the face, so I prefer not to, as these guys do.
But in 1997, I was wrestling for the WWE, and my career at that time wasn't going as planned.
And it was actually going backwards, and I wasn't making much progress.
And I wound up getting hurt.
I tore a ligament in my knee.
And so I went home.
And when I was sitting at home.
That's when I really started to question whether or not I was on the right path of being a professional wrestler.
And the reason why I considered MMA at that time was because guys like Mark Kerr, who I met, and a lot of his MMA fighting buddies at that time, from Mark Coleman, Kevin Randleman, Don Frye These are all guys who ultimately went on to become legends and godfathers of the world of MMA.
And those guys were making a lot more money, and they were wrestling out of Japan.
And at that time, I was wrestling... approximately 235 to 250 nights a year.
So I was never home, and I was wrestling every single night in a different city.
And so the wear and tear of my body was already beginning to set in, and that was just year one for me.
So at that time I began to consider a career in MMA, thinking I know they're making triple the money that I'm making and they're only fighting maybe five to eight times a year.
So I did consider it, and it was the summer of 1997.
And as I was rehabbing my knee, I got a call from the WWE who said that we're going to bring you back at the end of the summer, but there's going to be one difference
And I said, what's that?
And they said, we're going to make you a heel.
And so in wrestling- A villain.
A villain.
Yeah, exactly.
And that's at parlance.
Babyface is a good guy.
Heel is a villain.
And they said, we're going to make you a heel when you come back.
I said, great.
I just want any kind of change.
And I went back as a villain and Probably about three months later, the rest was history and I took on the persona of The Rock.
It seems very counterintuitive that you're out of the game for a while because of a bad knee injury and you're considering going into a type of fighting where the injuries are going to be much worse.
And so I can you explain that to me?
I realize there's money involved, but there's also like your body involved.
Why would you want to subject yourself to even more injury?
Sure.
Well, it really came down to money, Terry.
That's the truth.
I was making $150,000 a year in 1997, wrestling 235 dates a year.
When you break that down and do the math, that's not a lot of money per match.
Well, considering how you're putting yourself at risk each night, too.
I mean, it might be kind of staged, but that doesn't mean you're not going to get injured.
No, those guys in wrestling, they get injured all the time.
And even though it's performative and fictionalized, the wear and tear comes in the falls, the slams, and also the wear and tear comes in the form of just consistently doing it every night in a different city.
So in the world of pro wrestling, our goal was to entertain the fans and our goal was to really protect each other in the ring so we can move on to the next town tomorrow night um, Hopefully not injured.
But if you were injured, we all worked injured, even the guys and the girls today.
Everyone is injured to some capacity and everyone just protects each other as best they can.
Can you describe the difference between your baby face persona and your persona as The Rock?
So my original name when I went in to WWE was Rocky Maivia.
And I hated that name because it was when I got into wrestling.
As you said in my introduction, my grandfather was a pro wrestler.
My dad was a pro wrestler.
My grandmother was one of the first female promoters in pro wrestling.
So I came from a long lineage.
And while very proud of my family's history in pro wrestling, I also wanted to make it on my own and I wanted to carve my own path.
And so they came up.
WWE came up with this name, Rocky Maivia, a combination of my dad's name, Rocky Johnson, and my grandfather's name, High Chief Peter Maivia.
So it was showing respect to my family lineage and all part of the good guy, baby face persona.
And I remember having a conversation with Vince McMahon, who was the owner at that time of WWE.
And he said, when you go out every night, I want you to smile.
I said, can I ask you why?
He goes.
I want to make sure that the crowd thinks and knows that you're grateful to be here and you're grateful for the opportunity.
So I always want you smiling.
I want you to be the quintessential baby face.
And I remember at that time, Terry thinking well, I feel like there might be other ways for me to show how grateful I am, but also, this is a performance.
And even before I went out with my big smiles, as requested uh, from WWE, it just didn't feel right to me.
So I made my debut and my very first match in WWE, which was actually my very first match ever.
And that was in Madison square garden.
And um I went out and they had my match and um I wind up winning the whole thing, which was a pretty incredible night.
And the smiles were consistent.
Every night I would smile.
But then what happened quite quickly is the fans picked up on that and it wasn't good because they felt, and it was true, that I wasn't being just real and authentic.
And they began to turn on me.
When you won that first match, did you know you were going to win?
Was the choreographed for you to win?
Oh, yeah.
So that's the world of pro wrestling, is you know, and we're well aware of, who's going to win that night and who's not?
That's why I'm always careful to say – not to say how many people I actually beat, because it's actually – I didn't you know, and they allowed it to happen.
So everybody supports everybody.
But, yes, I did know that.
Okay.
So compare the baby face to The Rock.
Mm-hmm.
So now when I get the call from WWE and says hey, after your injury, when you heal up at the end of the summer, we're going to bring you back as a heel.
And then that night I got on the microphone and I said Rocky Maivia is a lot of things, because they were chanting Rocky sucks, which was a lot of fun.
In that world when you have 20000 people,
Well, here's the thing.
In that world, when you're a good guy and they're chanting Rocky sucks, that's a death sentence.
Now, when you're a bad guy, and you say, hey, I may be a lot of things, but sucks isn't one of them.
Then I said something that really lit the crowd, and they just booed even more.
But it was different back then, because then I became a heel that night.
And within three months, I became the hottest heel in the company.
And the ascension happened pretty quick.
But you know what, Terry?
It was That moment was so defining for me because it really allowed me to step into my power.
And what I mean by that is just being real and authentic.
And even in this crazy world of pro wrestling, every time I grabbed the microphone and I said something, or every action that I did, came from a very, very real place.
And it was like instantaneously, the crowd knew it.
And they said, oh, this guy's holding up a mirror.
That's who he is.
And we love it.
And then The Rock was born.
I thought you were going to tell me that you trash-talked the audience, that you became a villain to the audience.
Well, that's what I did do.
I became like the Don Rickles of...
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So there's a scene in the new movie The Smashing Machine where we see that Mark Hur is known for the body takedown by grabbing his opponent by the legs, by the back of his legs, and pulling up his legs so that the opponent is flat on his back while Kerr stands over him and smashes his face till it's all bloodied.
And you know the match has to end.
There was a similar scene in your wrestling career.
This was, I think, WrestleMania 14 against Ken Shamrock.
And Shamrock knocks you out, gets you in an ankle hold.
The announcers are speculating that he's broken your ankle.
You're bleeding from the mouth.
I can't tell if the blood is real.
Your head is hanging over the edge of the ring, and you're taken away on a stretcher.
And Shamrock has won.
The referee reverses his decision and declares you the winner because Shamrock refused to break the ankle hold.
He gets into a rage.
He literally throws the ref out of his way, runs over to the stretcher as you're being wheeled out of the arena and starts attacking you.
So how much of that is staged, and how much of that was real?
Were you really hurt?
Was that real blood?
In professional wrestling, it is always and only real blood, and that's the truth.
That night was WrestleMania, and...
I knew what the finish of the match was going to be.
I knew that he was not going to break the ankle lock and the referee was going to reverse the decision.
We knew that.
We talked backstage.
We rehearsed for hours and hours and hours.
And prior to us getting to WrestleMania, myself and Ken Shamrock, we were already wrestling each other every night on the road.
So by the time we got to WrestleMania, we had our chemistry, we had our alchemy and we had a really, really great match that night.
So the reason why I was bleeding from the mouth is because he suplexed me, And this is where, a lot of times in wrestling, you can train, you can have your techniques, you can do your best to protect your guy, your dance partner, as we call it.
But sometimes just things hurt, and you land in a way that hurts.
So he suplexed me and I landed in a way that really, for the moment, damaged my lungs and blood vessels.
Yeah.
And that's why I was spitting up blood.
So that was part of the match that we didn't plan, but just happens.
So I was on the stretcher, which I knew the ambulance was going to come and take me out.
It was all part of the finish.
So I did know everything that was going to happen that night, but I did not know that I was going to start bleeding from my lungs.
Oh, that sounds horrible.
Did Shamrock know you were bleeding for real and that you were seriously injured?
He did.
He asked me, there's ways that wrestlers can talk in the ring.
And he says, hey, are you OK?
And I said, I feel like I'm OK.
At least I can breathe.
Let's get through the match.
And so we finished the match.
And I think, you know, looking back, it was one of those that's happened to me a few times.
And it's happened to a lot of wrestlers, too, as well.
You're falling from six, eight, 10 feet and you land in a certain way.
That's just the nature of the landing sometimes.
Your father told you, you have to sell your pain in wrestling.
You have to make it as dramatic as possible.
I mean, people are showing up to see the drama, the drama of the suffering.
That's right.
So in MMA, you don't have to sell your pain.
You're in pain.
I mean, when a blow is landed, it's for real.
It's not rehearsed.
I want to play a clip from the documentary that your new film, The Smashing Machine, is largely based on.
It's a documentary about Marker and his career as an MMA fighter.
So in this part he's describing how, the first time he fought, there was this overwhelming fear and nausea.
And he didn't know if he could do it, but he was okay once he stepped into the ring.
He had already been a freestyle wrestler.
So he's starting MMA because he's broke.
He needs the money.
As you said, there's more money in MMA, at least at that time, than there was in wrestling.
So we see his first MMA fight doing a takedown of his opponent, getting him on his back and then smashing him in his face.
And then we hear Mark Kerr talking about the things that he does in a fight.
And he's actually describing what he's doing in the fight that we're watching.
So here's the clip.
It kind of got me fired up.
You know, I was like, okay, I can get in there and just manhandle these people.
Just one situation with two possible outcomes.
You're either going to beat somebody's ass or you're going to get your ass beat.
And then the question you ask yourself is how competitive are you?
What lanes are you willing to go to try to win?
You're going to poke him in the eye.
Are you going to take your thumb and dig at the cut to pull it open a little wider?
Of course you will.
So we're not only hearing him say, of course you'll do all that.
You'll put the finger in his cut.
And we're seeing him actually do it.
Did you ask yourself that question, putting yourself in Kerr's shoes to portray him on screen about how far would you go To win if you were not wrestling but doing MMA, and doing it for real, where the blows actually do always connect and you do want to bloody the person to win?
It's very primal.
And for some folks, that's tough.
It's hard to listen to.
It can be hard to see and watch.
But...
It takes a very, I think, unique person to become an elite MMA fighter.
And you get locked in a cage or a ring and it's two people enter and one's going to lose and one's going to win.
And what made Mark Kerr was, I think, sure, he was a physical anomaly.
His body Terry, his silhouette, his body, his shoulders, his legs.
He was a dominant amateur wrestler.
And for wrestlers who then transitioned into MMA.
They have a very unique build and their shoulders, their traps, their quads, but also they have this a different kind of quality to their muscle and there's a lot of it's like fast twitch quality to their muscle.
And what mark?
What made mark unique was he was this rare breed of six foot two 275, 80 pounds move.
He could move like a cheetah, But he also had this willingness to do whatever it took to win.
And that means, as wild as it sounds, during the fights.
If his opponent had a big cut or gash in his face, Mark would take his thumb and he would make that gash and cut even bigger.
And he would begin to pull it open. and put his thumb in there.
Now again, you've got to keep in mind that what you just let the listeners hear, that was from a tournament in Brazil.
And that tournament was you go down to Brazil and that was the first time he ever had a fight ever.
And he essentially gets thrown to the wolves.
And in this tournament, there were Very little to no rules.
No gloves.
No boxing gloves.
Didn't have to have a mouth guard.
You can stick your thumb in cuts.
You can knee to the groin, knee to the heads, whatever you wanted to do to win.
And in these tournaments, if you won that night, then you would continue to fight.
Not another night, but that same night.
And if you won that match, you would go on and fight again that same night.
That's crazy.
Yeah.
Terry, it's nuts.
It was crazy back then.
So Mark went into that.
It was, this is life or death.
I'm a gladiator.
And so that's the Mark that we just heard.
And that night he went on to win.
I think it was four matches, four fights that night, all in one night.
And the legend of Mark Kerr was born.
But what makes him different and this is the paradox is he is so.
I know it sounds funny Terry, but he is so sweet and he's so gentle outside of the ring and kind.
And everyone who he would beat and maul that night like a lion.
He would check on them and he would make sure they're okay.
And when they got to the back in the dressing room, he would go to them and say, hey, are you okay?
Sorry about that.
Well, we have to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you.
My guest is Dwayne Johnson.
He produced and stars in the new film The Smashing Machine.
We'll be right back.
I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.
Hello and Happy New Year.
It's Michelle Martin from Morning Edition.
Thank you to everyone who donated during our end-of-year fundraising campaign.
2025 dealt a big blow to NPR and local stations with the loss of federal funding for public media, but we are so heartened by the outpouring of support and we will get through this together.
Thank you for keeping NPR strong moving into 2026 and beyond.
What's in store for the music, TV, and film industries for 2026?
We don't know.
But we're making some fun bold predictions for the new year, plus setting some personal pop culture resolutions.
Listen to Pop Culture Happy Hour in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
From a city in Africa emerging from war to resilient Indian turtles, liberated refugees to defiant Austrian nuns.
Global favorites from the last year.
Listen to State of the World on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Fall in love with new music every Friday at All Songs Considered.
That's NPR's music recommendation podcast.
Fridays are where we spend our whole show sharing all the greatest new releases of the week.
Make the hunt for new music a part of your life again.
Tap into New Music Friday from All Songs Considered, available wherever you get your podcasts.
I want you to, if you don't mind, to describe some of the injuries that you've suffered in the ring.
And tell us how you would describe your pain threshold.
Okay.
Let's see.
Inside of the ring and outside of the ring.
And keep in mind, before I was suplexing 300-pound men and trying.
Can you explain what suplexing is?
Sure.
So suplex is a wrestling maneuver that started in amateur wrestling.
And there's multiple kinds of suplexes, but basically you would grab your opponent, either lock them around the waist or your face to face, or from behind, lock them around the waist and you lift them up and drive them down.
They're a maneuver that allow one to dominate a match, whether it be amateur wrestling or professional wrestling or an MMA.
And so in my career from football to wrestling, here's a little laundry list of my injuries.
I've had five knee surgeries, torn ligaments in my knees.
I tore my Achilles, which required surgery, so...
Four or five knee surgeries, I can't remember now.
A complete Achilles repair on my Achilles tendon, my left leg.
Let's see, a complete shoulder reconstruction where I tore everything.
And what happened was it's called a sublux.
So that's when your bone gets ripped out of socket.
And so when something like that happens, it's pretty traumatic.
And that happened on the football field for me.
And I had to get all of it repaired.
And the worst injury that I had.
If those weren't bad enough.
I was wrestling a wrestler who is now a famous actor.
John Cena.
Yeah.
I was wrestling John Cena at MetLife Stadium wrestlemania and it was for the wwe title and in that match i wind up tearing my quadricep and my adductor off my pelvis and when that happened i knew something was was really wrong.
I've been hurt in the ring a whole bunch of times and and uh, i remember asking the referee first.
He looked at me.
He says hey, are you okay?
I said i don't know.
I said i think i'm okay because i was lying on the mat.
I just felt something, a few things pop, and that's what happens.
That's what you feel when something gets popped off your pelvis.
I'm hurting just hearing this.
I said, how much time do we have left in the match?
And he said, about 20 minutes.
Can you go on?
And I said, yes.
So we went on, we finished the match.
But unfortunately, when something like that happens to your body and you continue to either wrestle your match or play your game or fight your fight, whatever it is, it's like a chain reaction, and then everything becomes weak.
And when that happened, when I tore my quad and my adductor off my pelvis, it made my abdominal wall very weak.
And then I'd gotten multiple tears in my abdominal wall because I continued the match.
Why did you say that you could go on when you were pretty sure that something pretty major had happened?
Well, I stood up and I tried to walk and I didn't really have a lot of walking ability, but I knew that I had my left leg was working really well.
My right leg was numb, but nothing was sticking out of my skin.
And I just felt in that moment, Terry, that I felt like, Because the pop was pretty traumatic.
Like I felt it and I thought something was piercing through my skin and I reached down and it was kind of like I tried to, as subtle as I can in front of 80000 people, kind of stick my hand in my trunks, and I felt down in that area and nothing was sticking through the skin.
And also your adrenaline is going.
And there's 80000 people and they're there for the main event and they're there to watch the whole show.
But
We are the main event and I trusted John, trusted the universe and the good Lord to give me strength.
Did John Cena know that you were seriously injured?
No.
Were you able to convey that to him?
I didn't want to tell him that, because I know the moment I tell him hey, something's wrong.
Then, knowing him the way I do because I would do the same thing he would want to end the match.
How would he have ended it?
Like, how do you do that?
He would have said, let's go home.
And in wrestling parlance, when we say to each other in the ring, let's go home, that means we're going into the finish and within a minute this match will end.
When you say let's go home, is there a way of reverting right to the end and still making it seem convincing?
Yeah.
So let's take this for example.
In this WrestleMania match, if he would have asked me, hey, are you okay?
And I say, no, there's something wrong.
And he says, okay, let's go home.
We would know where to pick up our finishes.
So it's almost like if you go right to the third act of the script.
We would go there, and then we would go home, and then that would be the end of the match.
So I didn't want to tell John that, because I knew the match would end.
And I didn't want the match to end in that way, because not only was it important to me to go out on my shield also Terry, I knew this was my very last match of my entire career.
My career was going to end on this night.
No one knew, but I knew.
And what year was this?
This was in 2013.
And the other reason, and maybe more important than my career ending, was I was doing the honors.
So again in wrestling parlance, when you're the world champion and you're carrying the wrestling business and the company on your shoulders and you do what's called doing the honors, that means you are passing it on and you're passing the torch to someone who's going to carry it from here on out.
And that was to John, and that was the finish of our match, was me giving him, me doing the honors for him, and he was beating me in the middle of the ring one two, three to become champion.
And that's why I didn't want the match to end right away.
I wanted him to have his moment.
That's important.
So let's talk about your family.
You're from a wrestling family.
I'll repeat that your father was Rocky Johnson, one of the first black wrestlers, and he's in the WWE Hall of Fame.
Your maternal grandfather was High Chief Peter Maivia, who was a very well-known in Samoa professional wrestler.
And your grandmother.
His wife took over the Polynesian Pacific Pro Wrestling Association after your grandfather died.
And how did wrestling change between your grandfather, your father, and your era?
Good question.
It became global.
And it became publicly traded.
And it evolved from wrestling in very, very small venues to stadiums throughout our country and around the world.
And I was lucky in a way Terry, in that my era, when I came into pro wrestling in the 90s, that was like the last man standing in terms of small promotions.
So when I first got into pro wrestling I didn't immediately go to the WWE because I wasn't ready and I was still green and I needed experience.
So fortunately, there was a wrestling company called the USWA.
And that wrestling company was based out of Nashville and based out of Memphis.
And I lived in Memphis, and that's where I started.
And the reason why I say I was really lucky in that, because it allowed me to cut my teeth every night.
I would wrestle in flea markets.
And barns and used car dealerships where people would come to buy a used car and there would be a ring in the parking lot and you would see wrestlers.
And I had my guarantee for wrestling a match every day was 40 bucks.
That was my guarantee.
So we're making no money and really starving, but you just love to do it.
So wrestling had changed and... evolved from my grandfather to my dad to me and the WWE.
But I was really lucky that before I got to the WWE I was still able to learn that way and learn on the road.
Well, I have to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you.
My guest is Dwayne Johnson, and he produced and stars on the new film The Smashing Machine.
We'll be right back.
This is Fresh Air.
NPR's podcast Trump's Terms is your source for same-day updates on big news about the Trump administration.
Short, focused episodes, one topic at a time, about five minutes or so.
We carry out reporting from across all of NPR's coverage, so you are always getting the biggest, most urgent stories.
Listen to Trump's Terms on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
You had a TV series called Young Rock that was based on your life growing up and your extended family.
Your father told you in real life and your father in the series tells you that you have to work the gimmick.
So there's the gimmick in the ring that he works and the gimmick outside of the ring.
What was the gimmick in the ring?
Well, the gimmick in the ring is what your persona is.
So a lot of these guys you know in the world of pro wrestling, especially back then in the 70s and in the 80s and in the 90s.
These wrestlers were so bombastic and the characters were so colorful.
And so that would be working the gimmick in the ring.
Now, working the gimmick out of the ring, it essentially means you live your gimmick.
You live your persona.
So this is why you know what we laugh at is.
You know a lot of the wrestlers, my dad and us being one of them was.
It was so important to live the gimmick.
So when you left the arena, or if you left wherever it is the venue, the flea market, wherever you were wrestling living, the gimmick means you got in a Cadillac or you got in a Lincoln and you drove away in front of the fans, but that was your car.
And living the gimmick means oh, there's this idea, fantasized idea that these pro wrestling stars are making a lot of money and they're leaving in their Cadillacs, they're leaving in their Lincolns and they're going to their mansions and wow, what a life.
But in a lot of cases.
And in your case.
And in our case.
You know, it was like Mickey Rourke in The Wrestler, the Darren Aronofsky movie.
That's a great film, yeah.
Yeah, it's a great film, but it's also a real look at those guys in the 80s who were stars and in the 90s who worked the gimmick.
And that's just what they did.
And instead of going home to their mansions, we went home to our trailer parks.
So from what I've read about your father is like he worked the gimmick in ways that could be kind of toxic.
And we see that in the series too, that in his attempt to help his son kind of get a boost, he tells these lies that the son has to explain away.
But, you know, I was reading this that your father wrote a memoir a few years ago.
I think it was 2019.
And he wrote an intro in your name as if you had actually written it.
And it really made you angry.
And there were quotes in the book of things that you'd never said.
And you actually got the book taken out of the market.
Was that a fairly typical thing?
Because that's beyond working the gimmick.
That's betraying your son.
That's right.
That wasn't working the gimmick.
That was something entirely different.
And that was my dad being my dad.
And that did upset me.
And usually, you know, I had this relationship with my dad that was complicated.
A friend of mine said you know that poor word is not enough these days for the relationship that you had with your dad.
It's so beyond complicated.
But yeah, that happened with that book.
And I knew he was writing a book, which...
I blessed.
I said, great, write your book.
And I want you to tell your story because also, I know what it's like to delve into something that can be cathartic for you.
And I wanted that for my dad.
And, you know, my dad had this really incredible career.
We had to overcome a lot being a black wrestler coming up in the sixties and the seventies.
And he was real, a real trailblazer in our world of pro wrestling.
And I wanted my dad to have that.
And I wanted him to tell his story, you know, But I also said to him multiple times, just be real.
Just be honest.
You don't have to put on a show.
You don't have to be presentational.
The world of pro wrestling, especially your era, is presentational enough.
You don't have to work the gimmick.
You just have to be yourself.
It's easier said than done, and I understand that, especially to men like that, where so much of their identity is wrapped up in their persona and why people fell in love with them, or so they think.
So the book came out and I was excited for my dad and he was going on these book signings and stuff.
And I said, hey, let me read the book.
And I read the book and I see on the cover it said, you know, forward written by Dwayne Johnson.
I go, God, I don't remember writing a forward.
Did I?
I read the forward and it was fine and it was pretty standard.
And I went, OK, fine.
And then I start reading the book.
And it was once you get in the pages of the book, that's when things become real.
And the reality of my dad just being himself and being open and real.
That reality evaporated because it was completely different.
Do you mean like fictionalizing things?
Fictionalizing things and telling these stories that just...
They just weren't true because I was there and I lived them.
But in the book, the thing I think that really got me most was not I think, I know.
The thing that got me most were there were direct quotes from me that were not true.
And basically the quotes were me giving my dad credit for everything that I had ever accomplished in my life.
I mean, like, literally everything I've ever accomplished.
And I was just, I was really just floored by that.
Did you talk after that?
Did that end the relationship?
Well, we weren't talking.
And that happened Terry, around Christmas time like, I think, a couple of days after Christmas or a couple of days before.
I just remember my, just kind of like that.
That was like a dark mark that Christmas.
But no, we weren't talking.
That was the last time we spoke.
And then he died.
And he died about two weeks later.
And he just, he wasn't sick.
He wasn't bedridden.
He just died.
And that became something that I had to and continue to work through.
Right.
Thinking that the emotional trauma, the fight that the two of you had led him to die.
Were you worried about that?
Well, it's hard to say.
I thought about that a lot of times.
I think, did he die of a broken heart?
Um, and the, the big takeaway of, I try not to regret things in life.
I really do because you can't and they're gone.
But the thing I think about is it's the reminder of.
You can be upset and this happens with parents and loved ones and you can get pissed and They do things, or you do things that you regret and they regret.
And then you know, you have it out and you can rumble and you can have these conversations and they're heated and they're tough and they're hard and there's tears.
But in the end, the lesson for me here is, but stay tight.
Don't not talk for weeks because you just never know what's around the corner.
My guest is Dwayne Johnson, and he produced and stars on the new film The Smashing Machine.
We'll be right back.
This is Fresh Air.
You were in the ring together with your father.
Yeah.
There's a lot of highlights of your fights on YouTube.
And in one of them, you're just fighting alone.
And I'm trying to remember who your opponent is.
But anyways, he's got you down and you look like you're in pain.
And then your father kind of rushes into the ring.
He's wearing like a sports jacket and he rips off the sports jacket.
Yeah.
He kind of rescues you.
And then, like the sultan, comes in with a flag on a pole and he takes the pole and he starts beating your father on the back.
And every time the pole connects to your father's back, the sultan like stomps his foot to make it sound as if the pole is making that kind of noise smashing against your father's back.
And it's kind of funny.
That must have been a fun experience for you.
That was awesome.
That was what you're referring to.
That was WrestleMania.
And that was my very first WrestleMania match, WrestleMania 13 in Chicago.
That was when I was a good guy, the baby face, the rookie.
And I was intercontinental champion for WWE at that time.
And the bad guys were beating me up.
And then my dad comes in and he helps make the save.
And we In wrestling parlance, it's called cleaning house.
So the baby faces, the good guys start cleaning house, meaning they're just beating up the bad guys and throwing them out of the ring.
And ultimately, the good guys, the baby faces, are left standing in the ring.
And that's like a nice father and son moment that was...
It was really cool.
I wasn't at that time again, I was kind of struggling with that because I felt like wait, I still want to try and create my own path.
And I remember thinking if my dad comes out and he's involved, it's not aligned with what I want to do, and trying to make my own path here.
But I still, I said, okay, let's do it.
And we did it, and it was a nice moment.
But, you know, I realized... what actually it meant for him, which that was a highlight for him.
And he has said that that was the highlight of his entire career, which meant a lot to me because my dad He did trailblaze and he and his tag team partner, Tony Atlas.
They became the first black tag team champions of WWE.
And even in the world of WWE, that's fictionalized and rehearsed and you know who's going to win and you know who's going to lose.
And when somebody becomes champion, the decision is made from an office that this man or this woman is going to become champion.
But why this was so significant in terms of, I think, culture and black culture and them becoming the first black tag team champions is because it signified that they really were trailblazing at that time.
And in the early 80s, there was still a lot of racism that was present.
And especially in these small arenas and these small towns around the country, where the audience was predominantly white.
They cheered these guys.
And that's why Vince, at that time, Vince McMahon.
Vince McMahon, yeah.
Yeah, he's like, you know what?
You guys need to become champions because you guys are changing the behavior of people.
And that's what one of the qualities of trailblazing is when you're able to change the behavior of somebody.
And that's what they did.
So the reason why I share that was because that to me, that was my dad's greatest accomplishment, which was him becoming first black tag team champions.
But my dad always referenced that moment, when he and I were in the ring together at WrestleMania, as his greatest achievement.
So I'm glad it happened for him.
Because, even despite our complicated relationship, I think it's just the love of a son that You'll always be.
Just that.
You'll be the son of your dad.
And you always want to make your dad happy, you know, despite all the stuff you go through.
Complicated guy.
Complicated relationship.
So before we run out of time, I'm going to transition from fighting to singing.
I like your voice.
I've only heard you sing twice.
I heard the Eric Clapton song that you sang and played in the ring to Vicky Guerrero.
And then, of course, in Moana, you sing in that too.
Did you think of yourself ever as a singer before singing on film for the animated film?
I grew up singing in our family.
I'm half black and half Samoan.
And in my culture, especially on the Polynesian side, singing and dancing was ever present in our household, with my dad as well.
And so we grew up that way.
And my mom, who will listen to this and is going to love this entire interview.
She still carries a ukulele with her everywhere she goes, Terri.
Everywhere.
Everywhere.
Everywhere she goes, she's known.
Oh, here comes the ukulele lady.
And then she'll remind everybody, no, I'm the rock's mom.
And she'll sing.
So we grew up singing.
And I grew up singing Sam Cooke and Elvis and Hawaiian artists and Hawaiian songs and Polynesian songs.
And in our household, it was like, We'd sing Don Ho, Tiny Bubble, Tiny Bubble, right?
You'd hear him sing and kind of crooning his way through our household.
So if this was the 1960s, you would be recording an album.
Clint Eastwood recorded an album.
George Maharis recorded an album.
I mean, lots of TV and movie stars, whether they could sing or not, recorded albums.
Are you going to record an album?
I'm not making you an offer.
It's not my place to do that.
Listen.
If we were in the 60s right now, that means Sam Cooke would be alive and me and Sam Cooke, it would be like Oh, you're the apple of my eye, my cherry pie, my coconut cream.
All right, that's all I got.
Thank you for that.
It's been such a pleasure to talk with you.
Thank you so much.
Congratulations on the new movie.
I think it really takes your acting career to a new level.
Really appreciate it.
It was really good talking to you.
My interview with Dwayne Johnson was recorded in October, when his film The Smashing Machine was released.
It's based on the life of former MMA champion Mark Kerr.
And with that, we end our holiday 2025 retrospective.
On the next Fresh Air, we return to new interviews with our guest journalist, Jacob Soboroff, who has a new book titled Firestorm The Great Los Angeles Fires and America's New Age of Disaster.
He covered the fires as a reporter while watching his childhood neighborhood, the Pacific Palisades burn, bringing a deeply personal lens to a national crisis.
I hope you'll join us.
Here's Johnson singing the Lin-Manuel Miranda song.
You're Welcome from the Disney animated film Moana.
Okay, okay.
I see what's happening, yeah You're face to face with greatness and it's strange.
You don't even know how you feel.
It's adorable.
Well, it's nice to see that humans never change.
Open your eyes.
Let's begin.
Yes, it's really me.
It's Maui.
Breathe it in.
I know it's a lot.
The hair, the bod.
When you're staring at a demigod.
What can I say except you're welcome for the tides, the sun, the sky.
Hey, it's okay, it's okay, you're welcome.
Fresh Air's executive producers are Danny Miller and Sam Brigger.
Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Daya Chaloner, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Whistler.
Our digital media producer is Mali Sivi Nesper.
Roberta Shorrock is our director.
Our co-host is Tanya Mosley.
I'm Terry Gross.
