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Hey, I'm Kwame Christian and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process.
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Frank, thanks for joining us today.
Thank you for having me on.
Yeah, it is my pleasure, my friend.
So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Well, I'm originally from Guyana, what was British Guyana, came to America on a Fulbright scholarship and did my bachelor's at Lehigh University and then went on to Cornell where I did a PhD in physical chemistry and also an MD.
And I was discovered whilst being a physician scientist at the University of Chicago, I was discovered by the pharmaceutical industry.
So I spent a large portion of my life thereafter.
In the pharmaceutical industry where I rose to be in fact, the first black to be on the board of management of a top five global pharmaceutical company, being an executive vice president in charge of research, development and regulatory affairs.
I retired, went back to academia at MIT and at the University of Akron and retired again, and have been writing books, one of which I have just published, which is now titled until you walk in my shoes and subtitles reframe methodology to overcome systemic discrimination.
This has become my passion.
And in a sense, my mission, I see myself as a seasoned problem solver who can assist employers, employees, students to really understand issues of discrimination and exclusionary practices in their organization, who can focus on their desired outcomes.
And also, the methodology will show them a way to find productive solutions for the problems that they have.
Love this. This is great.
And my bias is going to show here, Frank, because my favorite part of your bio there is, of course, the fact that you're from Guyana.
So for the listeners, my dad is from Dominica, my mom is from Guyana and Frank is a good family friend and quite accomplished, as you can see.
And one of the things I really love about your methodology, Frank, is the fact that it is rooted in practicality and problem solving.
And I think a lot of times when we're having these tough conversations about issues of identity and equity, equality, fairness, those type of things, emotions can take hold, and then it can sometimes inadvertently become exclusionary when we're trying to be more inclusive.
And when I was reading through your book, that was something that rang throughout.
And I want to start off by addressing just culture in general, we're in the West right now.
So let's just say Western culture, it seems right now as though it's becoming harder for us to have these tough conversations about sensitive issues.
And I want to get your perspective on what is it that makes it so tough for people.
You know, I happen to believe that all organizations, starting with the family, are based on two things, equity and inclusion.
And the leaders of the organization, the parents, for example, the leaders of a company, they set the policies and the guardrails, if you like, in terms of how we are going to behave to get to our desired outcomes.
And inclusion is the agreement amongst the coworkers who agree this is how they will behave with each other.
This is how they will recognize each other, value each other, value each other's contributions in order to get to the goals and the desired outcomes.
So that is basically it.
And so when I look at the situation that we have in the world today, it amazes me that we have stepped away from these two things.
We are no longer asking ourselves the question, is it equitable for the other person?
Am I excluding the other person?
And I find that very strange.
And what impresses me is that it seems to be driven by another word.
You mentioned culture, but the word cult.
And when the URE is dropped off and we get cult, then we get into the tribal side of things.
And we then begin to focus on what's in it for me?
What do I own? How do I exclude others?
And I think, unfortunately, there is so much, as I put it, simply cultism that has taken over the world.
Now why that is, I do not know.
Yeah, oh, there's so much to dig into here.
And it's a fascinating hypothesis there that equity and inclusion are the foundation of every organization.
And I like the way that we are defining organization very broadly here as well.
So we have an organization, we have companies that could be a nonprofit, it could be a for profit, but even going as granular as a family, I think that's really instructive.
And the terms equity and inclusion have been utilized so many times by so many different people in so many different ways, I think would be helpful for the audience to get an idea of how you're defining those terms.
Interestingly enough, I just completed a series of online courses.
And on one of the courses, one of the editors who was reading my script to the course called me up and said, you know, you have explained equity in a way that I never really got it until I saw your example.
And here's the example.
A man wants to a 50 pound bag of potatoes moved 10 yards.
And he has two candidates.
One is a 210 pound muscular man who can take the 50 pound bag and throw it over his shoulder and do the 10 yards.
The other is a five foot hundred and thirty pound man who cannot do that.
But if you focus on the outcome, namely to move the 50 pounds, 10 yards, and you offer both of them a wheelbarrow, the muscular guy will still decide not to use the wheelbarrow and throw it over shoulder and do the 10 yards.
But now, non athletic, small guy can with the wheelbarrow get it done.
That is what equity is, is giving everyone that which they need to accomplish a task, provided they have requirements to get that task done.
Wow, this is great.
It's very I love the simplicity of this example.
And one of the things that I love about this is that it's easy to understand everybody can understand that it's focused on the outcome.
Because at the end of the day, we still have work to do, we have a job to do.
And then also it's about making sure that the team is put in a position where more people are capable of getting the job done.
And I remember I was I was talking, you know, my grandfather passed away last month.
And I was recalling a story.
And I was saying, Hey, granddad, what was the secret to your success?
You know, 99 years old, the first permanent secretary of Guyana was saying, what allowed you to be so successful?
And he said, I got the job done.
And I kept on pressing him.
Okay, cool. You got the job done.
What else? No, that's it, Kwame.
I just got the job done.
And I think a lot of times, some of these diversity, equity and inclusion practices that we're trying to implement, they forget that really simple core message of at the end of the day, we are a team that was employed to get a job done.
And we could pull us in the wrong direction if we lose sight of that.
You know, when I was running a large several thousand scientists, large organization in the global pharmaceutical company, so research and development, I became famous for a statement which said, let me back up and just say one thing.
The company was the result of a series of mergers.
And at the time that I was appointed to be the global head research and development, it had just merged.
And the merger was amongst a German company, actually, it was an acquisition by the German company, who bought the number one pharmaceutical company in France, and bought a mid sized company, pharmaceutical company in the US, all three of which were global companies at the time, so had their own global
cultures. So here am I am transferred to Frankfurt, Germany to run this organization.
And of course, the perspective of the Europeans, both the Germans and the French who were upset that the American who came from the smallest of the three companies was made a boss.
They were very upset about this.
So I had two statements of which I became famous in the company, that is.
And one of them was, I did not care who generated an idea.
I didn't care whether it came from the Germans, the French or the Japanese or the Americans.
I just cared that it was innovative, and we got it and implemented it before the competition.
That's all I cared about.
What that did, and they saw me in an operation, doing that with my own ideas, it took away from them the feeling that this is the typical American who has come to tell us to do things the American way.
It took it to the outcome.
We want to get the outcome done.
And the second thing for which I became famous is when I said because both of these companies were very hierarchical.
And if I tell the story, I remember when I first got there, the second week, one of the board members came to visit me, and I was in this very small office that had one window and he was a guest who put you in this office.
And he immediately got me another office that had three windows.
And then I discovered that as a matter of fact, a number of windows in your office had to be consistent with your level.
So it was that hierarchical, even within the architecture in your office.
So I had this statement in which I said, let us focus less on what we control, and more on what we contribute.
Again, trying to focus people on the outcome.
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It's powerful. I love it.
And again, that that keyword of focus is so very important.
And going back to the outcome, that's something that is often missed in the difficult conversations we're having.
Because a lot of times, especially when we are talking about a sensitive topic where there's a lot of emotions involved, or identity might be triggered, concerns over identity might be triggered or exclusion or inclusion, whatever it happens to be, emotions take the lead.
And it just becomes two people that are emoting at each other rather than conversing with each other.
And so when you think about your approach with the safe haven dialogue for how to have these tough conversations, what do you think it is about your methodology that makes it work?
Well, one of the first things we do is the intake form, we ask an individual who is aggrieved, it's a term I like to use, basically on one at most two pages, or one page two sites, to tell us what the problem is, but to use the following format.
First, the desired outcome.
What is the true desires outcome?
Second, the environment.
Third, what is the situation?
And fourth, what do you think the problem is?
But here is the kicker.
Everything must be written down in bullet form, no paragraphs, don't wax lyrical, don't write novels, because then you're emoting, you're emoting.
So try to step back a bit as you commented about the emotion, try to step back a bit from the emotion, and be like Detective Friday, you're too young, probably to know this show Dragnet, but Detective Friday would say just the facts, man, just the facts.
So just get people to just state the facts.
So that's the first thing.
So we get people to step back a bit.
The second thing we do is we focus on equity and inclusion in the organization or in the team.
I will comment on conflict management, which is very interesting.
But what we do is we then take that form with the description of desire .com environment situation problem.
And we get a team three, four individuals whom I call my VIPs victors over injustice in their profession.
VIPs. One of the things that both when I myself experienced it as well as I as I helped others is often individuals who are grieve don't feel they're being heard.
They're explaining their situation that people are really not hearing them.
And part of the reason they're not hearing them is they haven't had the experience.
So they're listening, but they're not hearing it at a deep level.
When an aggrieved individual is presenting to three VIPs, whom they recognize have had this type of experience, they know they're going to be empathetic.
So when they then start being pragmatic and objective, their reaction is not going to be there being that because they're not hearing me.
Because they start off, these people are empathetic, they have been there.
They know my story.
So that's the second thing that we do.
I like that we focused on the intake form to start off.
It reminds me of when I was mediating the team, we put a lot of thought into how the intake form was was created.
Because it's not just about getting the information.
So you could do a good job as a communicator, a dealmaker, a mediator, or a leader, whoever happened to be in that context.
But it also gives the other person an opportunity to be heard.
And I think that's one element that's often overlooked in all of this, because even at the beginning, even though I said a lot of these conversations just end up with people emoting, I want to make sure that I'm very clear on the fact that emotions will always play a role in this.
And we have to be able to manage those emotions if we're going to be successful in it.
And there's a difference between hearing somebody and making somebody feel heard, two different things.
And the aggrieved party needs both in order to feel as though the solution and the process itself was equitable.
And I think that's one of the major things that I love about this methodology is that the process itself is equitable.
At the end of the process, the person might not get what they wanted with specificity or precision, but they can at least feel as though they were respected and included and treated fairly throughout the process.
And if you can achieve that, we can still move forward even though we don't agree on everything.
What you've said is just so important.
And I put it in one word, feeling valued, I was valued enough, they took time to really listen and try to understand, I have been valued.
And I have observed that throughout my long career, that often people are not valued from simple things of just giving the attaboys or recognizing them when they raise their hands in a meeting, you know, they're ignored, etc.
You know, or they make a comment and that comment is ignored, but someone else makes the same comment.
And that person's, you know, this lack of being valued is just really important.
So this, for me, was very important as you do in your intake form very important, and having a process that signals you're going to be heard, you might not like what you hear, but you will be heard.
I love that. And the signaling that you will be heard is very important, because one of the things that you mentioned is that the going into this process, if they don't feel as though the other side is going to empathize with them, they have this assumption, where if you're the person on the other side,
you have to come over this bias and this barrier, where they are assuming that you do not care, and you will not listen.
And by being really transparent about the process and helping them to understand what the process is, and knowing that the person on the other side is a VIP of somebody who's working with you to overcome this challenge.
Now you say, okay, we are on the same team, working toward a solution to this problem.
Yeah, then the next thing we do is we take a very practical approach to looking at the culture that this person is experiencing, which may be different from what is written on the website, what is written in the annual report, you know, the culture the individual is experiencing may be very different.
And so we look at it from a viewpoint of equity and inclusion.
And we looked at it in very simple ways.
Equity, we asked three questions.
Are there individuals who seem to be favored?
Well, doesn't matter what they do, they're not criticized.
They seem to get the better opportunities, etc.
Are they favored individuals?
The processes? Are they're transparent?
Are they open to everyone?
The HR processes, for example, are they transparent?
And the third minute of prospects, is there a clear relationship between performance and recognition promotion, etc?
Three simple things.
And those are the things that usually affect people when you come to equity, forget about all of the very detailed and your lawyer legally written policies that are there.
At the end of the day, if I'm looking around and John or Mary, you know, every time there's a great opportunity is being called upon and I have similar capabilities.
And, you know, it's never coming my way or John and Mary make errors.
And when I'm not criticized, which when I make an error, the whole company knows about it.
And I make a very simple statement, as a matter of fact, is that equity is that what you see, you can see those behaviors.
And inclusion is that what you feel.
So for inclusion, I find that it's easier to look at exclusion.
So I use the microaggressions, micro assaults, micro insults and micro invalidations.
If someone insults me, no matter how they try to disguise it, I feel it.
It doesn't matter how they say it.
I feel it. If someone, you know, treats me less than my capabilities, is passing me over and going to others with less achievements, micro invalidations, I feel it.
I don't have to look very far.
So I use those simple things, the three things that you can see, three things you can feel micro assaults, micro insults, micro invalidations.
And when you do that, that aggrieved individual knows that it's real, it's dealing with the culture that they are experiencing.
It's not dealing with the policies of the company, etc.
that are not being observed in the culture that micro culture in which that individual is living.
I want to lock in on some semantics here, the word choice is really powerful.
Because a lot of times when we talk about culture, and the definition I like to use for culture is the way that we do things, just their different cultures, we have, you know, Guyana versus America, but then we have Ohio versus Michigan, but then we have individual households and everything like that.
Everybody has different cultures, and even department to department, you're going to have different cultures.
And you didn't say, what culture do they find themselves in?
Or what is the culture that they are?
Like, what is their departmental culture or company culture?
You said the culture that they are experiencing.
I want to give you an opportunity to highlight why that word choice is so important.
It is very important, because what struck me is that you can go to the website and get this wonderful description about the culture of the company.
And you can go if you take a university, this is probably the best example, you have this wonderful and then you see that actually, things are done.
And people experience them differently in one college versus another.
And within that college in one department versus another, and within that department in one subgroup versus another.
So it doesn't matter what is described and what is aspired to and what the overall gestalt will maybe, what is important is what that person's experiencing with respect to what is being done, and what that person is being allowed or not allowed to do.
That's the culture.
Brilliant. Brilliant.
And again, it gives us all an additional layer of analysis.
When we find ourselves in these situations, we can have the aspirational culture, this is what we aspire to get have the actual culture, what is actually happening, the observable tendencies that we see, but then the experience culture that's very different.
And we need the person to share that, but we need to create an environment where they feel a level of psychological safety that allows them to share that so we can make the necessary adjustments as an organization so people can feel included and as though they're treated fairly too.
I really love that categorization, aspirational, actual experience.
Beautiful. I love that characterization.
Thank you. No, I appreciate this.
Oh, I really do. This is a masterclass.
If you do not mind.
Yeah, go ahead. I'll steal it from you.
I will use it. Please do.
Please do. That's the purpose of the podcast.
I have talked around it, but that capsulates it very nicely.
Thank you. That means a lot.
I appreciate that. And I'm excited to see where this goes, too, because you've been doing this work for a long time and to see it encapsulated in a book so well articulated and so clear.
I think this could give guidance to a lot of other practitioners in the industry so they can have a lot more success.
And I think joy in that process, too, because a lot of times it feels like we are just it's the myth of Sisyphus just pushing that boulder up the hill and never feeling like we're making any progress.
And so I love the practicality and methodology here.
And before you go, I want to give you an opportunity again to let folks know where they can get the books, how they can work with you and about the courses that you've created as well.
The books are on Amazon and Barnes and Noble.
So just go to Amazon and please, if you are impressed with the book, please do write a review on Amazon.
That is really very helpful.
I've just launched the courses we talked about and that could be found at HTTPS, the usual dot slash slash.
But safe haven dot my kajabi slash courses.
So it's safe haven dot my kajabi K .A .J.
ABI, which is a platform slash courses.
And my website is safe haven dialogues I find LLC dot com at safe haven dialogues I find LLC dot com and I'm available.
Just write to team at safe haven dialogues LLC dot com.
I'm available to do webinars, to do workshops, to make presentations.
So look forward to hearing from you.
I love it. And don't worry, listeners, we will have each and every link in the description of the episode to make it really easy.
Frank, this was an absolute masterclass.
Really appreciate you joining us today.
Well, thank you for the invitation and I enjoyed it.
And thank you again for that categorization.
I will. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Now, before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before.
Just kidding. I've told you before, but you should listen to it again.
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I'll catch you later.
