My name is Hugh. I'm a co -host on The Imperfects.
I'm the son of Sri Lankan and English immigrants and I call Australia home.
We at The Imperfects acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded and we extend our respects to the elders past and present.
I spent much of the last decade travelling around this country sharing stories.
In doing so I acknowledge and pay homage to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people's rich history of storytelling.
I also acknowledge that whenever I talk about or practice resilience, there is no greater example than the one set by the world's oldest living culture.
The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.
The advice given in this episode is general in nature but if you're struggling please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.
We're sitting in a world and a life and a body where there is uncertainty and there always will be.
But in this present moment, provided that there is no one attacking me, that there is no imminent danger to my physical body, I am safe right now.
Quick! Is anyone here a doctor?
Yes. Her name is Dr.
Emily and she's a psychologist.
Please welcome to The Imperfects our very own Psychologist!
Dr. Oh! Jinx! Jinx!
My kids are actually taking the game Jinx very seriously at the moment.
Really? And it is. If they say the same word at the same time.
Yeah, Jinx is huge.
It is just and then the look of devastation on one person's face when they don't and they just don't speak and the other person won't say their name and it's just this standoff that just.
But I kind of, I mean I really do miss, there's certain things I missed from being a kid and it's things like for maybe a day or a week, Jinx is the law.
Like, you know, that is the whole focus of everyone for that week is Jinx.
It's like who's got Jinx?
How do you get out of it?
Like nothing else matters.
There's no worries.
You know, it's just Jinx.
But that's the heart of stress.
Yeah. That's the heart of stress, yeah.
And I acknowledge everyone who did feel stress straight out because I certainly did.
Really? I found it so stressful.
Right now. You've learned how to deal with it.
As a primary school kid, though, just if someone got you and you couldn't talk.
Evastating. You remember how, was it just my circle?
Was it like Jinx, personal Jinx?
Yeah, personal Jinx.
Jinx no return, I think.
Wasn't it Tochi, Kiss or Promise?
What was that? Jinx, Personal Jinx, Tochi, Kiss or Promise.
Anyone else in the room know that?
Yeah. We all had, every school had its own little variation.
Yeah. Torture sounds pretty full on those.
What actually happened if you got to choose one?
I think it was like probably like a wrist burn or something like that, you know.
They go from very extreme to just promise.
Yeah. Like, Tochi, Kiss, Promise.
Oh, Promise every time.
Yeah. Anyway, Dr. Ram, you're talking about Jinx -ing tonight.
I'm spelling my specialty.
Hi, how are you, Em?
I'm very good. So good to have you here.
It is great to be here.
Oh, Dr. Ram, as some people may know, but new listeners may not, is that you're our resident psychologist, friend of ours, long time friend of Hugh's, former employee of Baldwin Cinema in Victoria.
I think once an employee, the Baldwin Cinema always, an employee of the Baldwin Cinema.
Is that not literally?
No, not literally. And also not even metaphorically, because when I went there the other day, I told the guy, I said, I actually used to work here.
What do you mean? OK.
Cool. Thanks. Do you want to see a movie?
Yeah, it doesn't really carry any weight.
Well, Em comes in like once a month or so and Em you will find an old episode of ours and you'll find a moment from that and expand on that in a clinical way.
And which episode are you revisiting today?
Well, I'd like to go back to Miff Warherst's episode, and the title of her episode was Embracing Uncertainty.
Yeah, uh oh. Alarm bells.
Yeah. And so get ready, guys, about to get lonely.
So that's really what I wanted to explore today was worry and uncertainty.
Yeah. And it feels particularly pertinent to me that this is an area that we are, all of us globally are facing in a very profound way.
Both like again, like I said, globally, but also personally encountering so much uncertainty.
And that uncertainty feels can feel very overwhelming, very confusing and at times very distressing.
Because there is such a big part of uncertainty where you can often it's also a feeling of helplessness.
And and that is that feeling of uncertainty where there's nothing, even if it's not affecting you personally, if it's something happening overseas or something, you know, something so big over something so small that's happening either in like your world or someone else's world to feel helpless.
Feel so distressed about something and to feel so helpless about a certain uncertain event or thing that's happening.
It's a it's a really it's really hard to reckon with.
It's it's an enormous challenge.
And so today I just really wanted to acknowledge upfront, you know, how much uncertainty we are all facing.
It may potentially feel as though we're facing more uncertainty than we ever have before.
But on the flip side, I actually really want to emphasize the fact that uncertainty is in some ways the only certainty.
OK. Yeah. Aside from death, we really have no certainty in a micro way, which I will explain as we as we go along.
But perhaps before we do that, I'll play a little grab from Mifs episode because it really did strike me so vividly around, you know, what it feels like to be faced with unpredictability and the unknown on a very kind of consistent basis.
Yeah. And Mif or Hurst for those.
I mean, everyone knows who Mif or Hurst is, but Mif has been on Australian television and radio for so many years.
And when she came on and talked about, we talked about uncertainty, obviously.
But she was also kind of like our gateway into talking a lot about menopause, which we then eventually got on Dr.
Louise Neeson. And anyway, it's a side note.
But we'll link to Mifs episode in the show notes as well.
That's tricky. It's a roller coaster.
And and I also think too, no one actually told us when we were growing up that life is actually more like the ups and downs of that.
And I think when we were younger, we were told you do a kind of a gradual rise and then you do choose when you end hit all the markers and then you coast.
Yes. And that is absolutely not the case in anyone's life, in anyone's position.
But I think we still kind of hope for that moment, a wait for that moment where it's like, oh, now I get it.
Now I can just. Yeah.
But it's never going to happen.
So you have to actually I have to come to terms with that anxiety somehow in order to enjoy everything else.
Yeah. It's that's such a good point.
It's something about like when you're younger and you look into the future of your life, it seems you imagine it in such a simple linear fashion.
It's like, oh, well, I'm going to do this.
And then once I've achieved that, then I'll get married and then I'll have kids.
And then I'll do, you know, it seems like a very like compartmentalized life that you can control.
And then obviously you get there and you realize you can't.
And it's like, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, no, no, this is not.
I plan to do this now.
So this is ruining my whole plan.
In some ways, we are kind of sold a story of certainty that I follow the directions, that I will reach a certain outcome.
And as we would know, as being a human, there isn't a certainty, even if we follow the instructions, that is vague.
That could be the episode.
That just makes so much sense.
Could be great to go a little bit further.
Yes, I want to, but and we're going to.
But that... Yep. Have you double booked you?
It is a chance. No, I honestly reckon that's enough.
Should we just call it on that?
I think we should keep going.
OK, great. So I wanted to talk today about worry and uncertainty because the two go very much hand in hand.
And in looking at this, I came across some really fascinating research and it got me really a little bit excited about the research.
It's probably just very much my like nerd like tendencies in there.
It was a meta analysis, which is an analysis of analysis.
So it's like a zooming out and it's looking at all of the analysis that have been done and then doing an analysis of that, of those results.
And it was conducted by Nicholas Carlton and colleagues, I think it was 2019.
And they reviewed and analyzed research that had been done on the concept of intolerance of uncertainty.
And what they did is they looked at research done of college students from 1999 up until 2015.
And what they found very clearly was that across this time, our intolerance has increased.
So we are more intolerant of uncertainty now than we were in the late 1990s.
Well, that I mean, there are immediate reasons that jump to my why.
I'm assuming you will explain why.
Yes. So their analysis and their conclusions or hypotheses around this was that across that time, we have been exposed increasingly to the Internet to high speed broadband and to mobile phones.
I've been on the Internet.
Have you guys been on the Internet recently?
Yeah, I've checked it out.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Destructing, isn't it?
It's going to be big.
Yeah. Yeah. And let me explain why that would be increasing our intolerance.
So in the current world, whenever we are unsure about something, we Google it.
If I don't know where to go, I put it into my GPS.
Yeah. If I'm worried about my health, I will Google it.
If I don't know where someone is, I will text them.
Oh, God. If I don't know an answer to something, I have immediate accessibility to information.
Yeah. So what has happened is that we have become across time unpracticed at uncertainty.
And if we go back to pre Internet times, how often would we be exposed to uncertainty?
So much more. The landline rings.
You don't know who is on the other end of the phone.
God, remember that.
But you answered it so excitedly.
Yes. Yeah. I don't answer my phone excitedly when I know who it is.
I'm like, Oh, I don't know if I want to answer that.
Yeah. Yeah. But that's like it.
There's no I don't know what they're going to say.
That's uncertain. Yeah.
What are they going to say?
Well, there is like no element of surprise.
There is a little bit, but it's like far less element of surprise.
And there is like the mystery, like the mystery of life is sort of less.
Yeah. Yeah. I think you're really kind of hitting on something important in there.
And that is that when we've become more reliant on more information, we don't offer ourselves opportunities to feel excited about what could happen.
We don't get exposed to a curiosity in the way that we would have in the past.
Like even things like not knowing the answer to something really strange, like, you know, who is a trivia thing.
Yeah. Yes, exactly.
Yeah, we just have to ponder it and not know.
It's one of the great joys of hanging out with Dad.
I'm always in or of his not reluctance, but just if he says, like, how many goals did Jason Dunstall kick in the 89 grand final?
He will sit there and work it through in his mind and discuss it for quite a while.
And I think he has to, he might go get an atlas or encyclopedia from a bookshop.
Not for that question.
Well, Dominican Republic Dunstall.
But it's like this really nice.
I've often said they're going, we could solve this in one second.
Like I could look it up now.
But he just likes to work it through his head and remember it.
And we go, oh, no, it was in the semifinal that he kicked.
That was against the swans.
Rick, you and then I do love that.
Sometimes I feel like we can just but he.
Jam often does say to me when we're trying to think of exactly something like that.
I mean, it's not Dunstall related usually, but it's like, you know, who was that actor or what was that movie or whatever it is?
Jam's like, don't look it up.
Let's just try and remember, because the joy you get from actually remembering it.
It's so rewarding. And not only that, the distractions you get along the way.
Like when you're trying to remember who was the actor and I don't know, who was the guy in Dumb and Dumber in the car between the two of them.
Yeah, it's a very specific reference.
You might end up thinking about Flubber or something.
Like some movies you haven't thought about in age.
So I'm already enjoying this.
So actually, it becomes so much more expansive.
Yeah. In fact, what's coming to mind as you guys were talking, and I don't mean to bring this back and I hope I don't bring him back into every episode, but is Sean Turnell when he was talking about how he coped, particularly in isolation was the Myanmar prison.
Yeah. Yeah. Was was using his imagination and also using this like internal map of information.
And it opened up a whole other world when we're here in the current time in with access to immediate information.
We don't actually use our brains in the same way.
How how much of it has to do with like just our general feeling of urgency and like wanting to save time or be efficient?
Because I know like I would like to be the person who when I go into a new city or somewhere that I've never I don't know the area.
I would love to be the person who just tries a restaurant without looking it up and just going, well, let's just give this one a go.
But that gives me genuine like to to mess up a meal.
Really, if I stuff that up when I could have looked it up, so annoying.
And I'm like and I'm I'm writing off restaurants at a four point six.
It's like four point six.
I don't know. 50 reviews.
It's like probably great.
Yeah. But it's like I'm judging, you know, I'm using these things that I want to make control every experience.
And that's exactly what we're looking at here is the the information that we're seeking in advance is a form of worry.
And it's an in an effort to try and create as much certainty as possible.
So we're trying to predict an outcome where I will feel the most happy or satisfied.
But again, nothing is certain.
So you could go to the restaurant that's five stars.
It's got 10 ,000 good reviews.
And on this day, something happens, doesn't work out.
The meal that you brought out wasn't as good as everyone said it was going to be.
And I've gone in with these expectations that I'm going to be given a certain outcome of absolute joy and pleasure.
And that experience also means that you're never really present.
Right. It's really messed up now to think about it.
There's been a couple of times where I have gone, gone to a restaurant because someone's recommended or something.
And it's just like a verbal recommendation.
And I've gone there and then I'm like, gee, you know, I've loved it, had the best time.
And then I'll look it up on Google Maps or something to maybe save it.
And it's like three point six.
I'm like, am I wrong?
Yeah, did I? Yeah, you only trust.
Yeah, maybe I didn't like that.
Like if it's not popular.
You know what I mean?
Like I get I'm so reliant on the opinions of people who review on Google Maps that I'm questioning my own experience.
Maybe not really what you're talking about, but it's just sort of that cut it out.
Actually, there is there is something in there that's important.
It's about the best and right making the best and right decisions.
Oh, yeah. And that that so much of our effort is involved in ensuring that I make the best and right decision and that will somehow secure a sense of safety and well -being for me.
So if other people tell me that that was not the best and right decision, then I must be unable to trust myself.
God, that is so profound to me.
I feel like that bleeds into a lot of areas of my life, actually.
Like that, like it's only good if other people say it's good.
Like I could I could that could I could parallel that with my work.
Like it's like, I don't know.
Is it good? I don't know.
What do you think? You know what I mean?
Yeah. I find that happens.
Yeah. And so almost like trust, safety and uncertainty kind of sit all in the same kind of pool in some ways.
So I first of all, I don't trust myself to make a spontaneous decision, for example.
So I will go and research as much information as possible or get the opinions of other people.
Get data, get data.
And so reassurance seeking, for example, is very, very common.
We're in a space of feeling very anxious and fearing the unknown.
Fascinating. I'd always thought of the right, the way you're talking about the Internet increasing our inability to deal with uncertainty.
I always thought that fake news, our willingness to believe fake news was purely because there was so much for going out there, but it also feels that there's another mechanism in our inability to be uncertain about what's going on and just wanting to grab something that we say to get some form of certainty
straight away. Absolutely.
It's like a perfect storm.
Yeah. Yeah. Because being in a place of uncertainty is very uncomfortable.
Like if we were to look at this concept of intolerance of uncertainty, we all, no one really likes it.
Like that's it's a this is like a normal human thing.
No one likes feeling uncertain because it brings with it some kind of potential threat, but it's a spectrum in some ways.
So some people are more OK with being uncertain than others.
Some people are very, very uncomfortable with uncertainty and will do whatever they can to ensure as much certainty as possible.
And if we were to look at, you know, for some of us that feel particularly particularly distressed when exposed to uncertainty, what we will often do, this is going to sound strange, but what we will often do is move into worrying.
It makes it obviously makes sense.
When something is uncertain, we then worry about it.
But the worry has this function and the function is to try and protect me.
So for people that have tendencies to overthink or to spend a lot of time in their mind worrying about future events, that worry is actually trying to create certainty.
So the function of worrying is an effort to create a sense of safety, but paradoxically, it actually creates a lot of distress.
Hmm, gotcha. Yeah. You think it's you think it's helping, but it's not.
Yeah. And so we can often hold positive beliefs about worrying.
For example, I must worry in order to prevent the worst case scenario.
If I stop worrying, the worst case scenario will happen.
I will worry in order to plan ahead.
I worry so that I can prevent bad things from happening, basically.
Or to prepare yourself for the worst.
To prepare myself. So if I was to stop worrying, I would feel more anxious in some ways because it's not being attended to.
So this thing in the future is not being attended to.
Therefore, I would feel unsafe.
Yeah. So it feels kind of a bit murky to grasp in some ways that the worry is actually trying to make you feel better.
Yeah. But that's its function is that I'm internally trying to problem solve to find safety and security and certainty.
But the real problem with worry is that it is infinite.
So I will never be able to find that place of certainty no matter how much worrying I do.
The example that kind of comes to mind would be worrying about the safety of maybe a partner when they go out or worrying about a child when they go out.
And so in an effort to make sure that they're safe, you might reach out to them a lot whilst they're around and just checking that you're OK.
Are you OK? Are you OK?
Now, the thing is no amount of worrying about the other person will keep the other person safe.
Even even though when I was getting on a massive ferry when I was overseas and I spoke to my mom and she and I'm like, OK, mom, got to go.
We're just getting on the ferry now.
She's like, OK, darling, but just put on it.
And then she stopped herself and I was like, you're going to say life jacket.
And she was. Yeah, because that would have allowed her to feel somewhat safer.
Yeah, because she's sitting in a huge place of uncertainty around whether you are safe or not.
Does that kind of resonate?
Oh, yes. Yes. Yep. OK.
So there's there's a function here.
The worry is trying to keep us safe.
But paradoxically, it actually causes us a lot of challenges.
And one of the the biggest outcomes of that kind of worry is that it moves us out of what's already here.
So it moves us out of the present moment.
We lose contact with what's actually happening.
Yeah, but part of me feels that worry also for me is to prove to myself that something matters, like if for example, it's late at night, so I spend out with her girlfriend since she's not home and I don't exactly know where she is.
My worry there. It's almost like, God, I'd be so cold not to worry.
What a bad person I would be if I wasn't worrying about this, if I was just to go, oh, well, whatever will be will be.
And she'll be home when she's home.
And if she's not, something terrible's happened.
That feels so cold to have that attitude.
So it's like to be a human who actually cares.
I have to worry. Yeah, and that's a really interesting point.
And I think that I it would be remiss of me not to mention that worry is normal.
And it has its instructive.
And so certainly in this context, I'm not saying that we should not worry.
Yeah. It's really important.
Part of our evolution, you know, we need to pay attention to threats in order to be safe.
Absolutely. The real hallmark is how much it's impairing our lives, basically.
So how much is this costing me?
How much it's taking you out of the present moment.
Yeah. Yeah. And how much distress is creating?
Is it meaning that I can't get my work done?
Is it meaning that I just like physically, I feel anxious all the time because I'm so worried about what might happen?
So that's always the big question for me, is that, you know, how much is this impairing my life and how much is it actually costing like a vitality?
Well, the thing that comes to mind for me is so a huge difference between Jam and I is Jam really loves uncertainty when it comes to adventure.
And by adventure, I mean like Jam loves the water.
She loves beaches and she loves discovering little coves, you know, rocky coves, and that's just her happy, happy place.
So she will literally go on to Google Maps and she will zoom in on satellite view and just like go really close and just scour the coast to find coves that look interesting.
And then she'll be like, I want to go to whatever that is.
And then she'll just hope we'll drive to somewhere near there and hope there's a path to get to that cove.
And I'm like, there's nothing marked like we don't know.
We probably can't get there.
And she's like, let's just check.
So we drive like half an hour an hour in the hope that we will find a way to get to that cove.
And how do you handle that?
Well, we end up usually will do it.
But often I feel really uncomfortable about that because I'm like, well, we could we could go all that way.
And we and it's a dead end like it's private property or it's, you know, there's no way to access that.
And so if it was up to me, I'd be like, let's not take the risk.
Like, let's not go there because we could go to this other beach, which we know we can park at and we can take a favorite spot.
Yeah, my favorite path.
Yeah. Or even if not, even if it's a new place, it's like at least Google Maps is saying there's a road that goes directly to that beach and we can just go there.
Yeah. And I think it speaks to the safety of the familiar.
So that's where we feel a sense of some degree of certainty.
I've been to this cafe.
I know it's good quality coffee.
We don't know that it's going to be exactly the same every time.
But by and large, it would be my safe place because I can be somewhat assured that it will be a good outcome.
Yeah. Yeah. But what we're losing in there is opportunity for curiosity.
Surprise, excitement or and really being grounded in this moment of discovery almost.
So interesting. All those words you just said, I would probably say they're the fuel that energize Jam.
Yeah. Yeah. All those things.
Yeah, that's so interesting.
Yeah. If we're traveling, I'm to an annoying degree, I'm doing so many so much research on blogs and books and.
And for me, I think it's trying to minimize regret that I don't want to experience your great of stuffing up or missing, especially when you're on a holiday, which is a finite set of time.
We've got like, all right, we got six meals here.
I don't want to regret one of them.
It actually kind of brings up, you know, when you talk about regret, it brings up obviously decision making.
And there's an amazing researcher.
She's known kind of almost as the mother of mindfulness.
She's at Harvard. She has some incredible work and it's not woo woo.
Let me just like be very clear.
It's very grounded in heaps of really kind of interesting research.
And she talks a lot about decision making because decision making very much is facing uncertainty in every possible way.
And what she talks about in here is this idea that when we feel regret, we feel regret about an imagined past.
But we never have an opportunity to have played out that alternative.
So we never will have known what the alternative would have been like.
But we often will imagine that it was better.
Yeah. For example. Yeah.
So when it comes to decision making, she has a very kind of quite famous quote.
And that is that rather than wasting time, making the right decision, make the decision right.
Hmm. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
It's really good. We're in it now.
Let's make this. Yeah.
Yeah. And not even we're in it now.
I'm choosing this and I'm going to make this choice right.
Come into it. Yeah.
Yeah. Because she actually kind of really talks about this idea that we are searching so, so strongly for a sense of certainty when we're making big decisions and small decisions.
And so we'll gather as much information as possible.
We'll do all the reviews.
In some ways, it's like a procrastination actually.
But this kind of process of gathering information is trying to make us feel better about making the best and right decision.
And she's like, there is no best and right decision.
You make the decision and then you make it right.
And within that, there's like so much it's almost like gratitude in that.
Yes. In like being in a situation where it's like, OK, I've decided this maybe on the face of it, like what I know of like, quote unquote, good restaurants.
Yes, this doesn't look like a cool restaurant that I would have chosen if I had the choice, but God, there are so many great things about this that I need to focus on and make it great, because how lucky am I to eat in a restaurant at all?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
It opens you up to more curiosity and to gratitude.
Now, I really want to emphasize that of course we need planning.
You know, it's not about kind of throwing out any form of planning or, you know, kind of really having considerations for things.
But when we hold onto that really rigidly, that's where there's a problem.
Yeah. And so like, for example, you go on a holiday, maybe you've got a week and maybe historically you've planned out every single meal and every single thing you're going to do.
What would it be like to let one day be a day of exploration?
So in that we're kind of practicing exposing ourselves to uncertainty.
And when we expose ourselves to this uncertainty, we also offer ourselves this really amazing opportunity for exposure to wonder and awe and like the specialness of living really.
I mean, that is it's almost like I think I find safety in the decision to explore.
Like there's kind of something exciting for me to go, OK, today, I'm going to we're going to walk out the door and I don't know what's going to happen.
Like there's something like I feel safe in that having chosen that.
Yes. You know, and to go like, OK, well, that's the activity today to just explore and and be taken in whichever way the wind blows.
That excites me. Do you remember when we were on the Gold Coast doing our show?
We're staying at a hotel and you're on your laptop in the morning and I walk past you and I said, I'm going to get breakfast.
And I didn't know where I was going.
I was like, oh, there's so many places.
I'm just walking to find something.
And I came back a hour and a half later and he said, how'd you go?
And I said, terrible.
I couldn't find anything in the place.
I went to a shocking and you said admirable and noble.
But stupid. Yeah, I believe that.
Also, should we acknowledge there are some uncertainties that are non -restaurant based in this world?
Yes. Yes. And the reason that we can kind of talk about it on a superficial level like, you know, not checking the restaurant menu before you go, not checking the reviews, not using the GPS, not planning, not list writing, all that stuff makes our lives easier.
There's a convenience to this.
But when we so easily engage in this kind of information seeking for convenience for ease, what it's doing is not offering us opportunities.
To be able to sit with the discomfort of uncertainty when it is really hard and when it is a very distressing experience.
So, for example, you're faced with the uncertainty of a medical diagnosis, you're faced with the uncertainty of where you're going to get a job.
You're faced with the uncertainty of waiting for exam results.
You're waiting with the uncertainty of not knowing if someone is going to be here or not waiting for results of an IVF cycle.
These are the things that we are actually going to get really, really overwhelmed by.
Yeah. And so if we haven't been able to practice like exposure to small amounts of uncertainty, then our tolerance for the big ones is is absolutely undermined.
Practice. Yeah. Yeah.
Go to practice. I mean, with that making the decision right, it and this is, I guess, is top of mind for me, as it would be a lot of people.
But the decision of whether or not to try and have children to be a parent is one, you know, I've spoken about it on this podcast a lot.
And we had Anne Davidman on a while ago and she essentially helps people.
She has a course and she's written a book and she helps people with the decision on whether or not they should be parents.
And she talks about like, you know, make a decision and commit to it and make and make that life great.
You know, we had Elizabeth Day on and that decision was made for her where she wasn't able to have the children that she wanted.
And that episode actually was quite, I think, inspiring.
It's like amazing that she is sort of like she's now taken on her life and she's making that decision right.
The decision actually sets you free.
Yeah, really. Yeah.
Because for me, it's like in jam and I talk about this a lot, where it's it's like there's there's so much I have so much fear and uncertainty in both ways, in having kids or not having kids like both kind of scare me because it's like, oh, is the decision right?
The best and right.
Is the is it the best and right?
But yeah, to be able to go like, no, make the decision right.
Don't make there is no right decision probably anyway.
I have been thinking for a little bit on this without realising.
Well, it was sort of adjacent to uncertainty.
It is uncertainty, but I don't think I'd class in this way.
But one of the things that I find really distressing about living in the 21st century is the fact that up until the most of human existence up until recently, there was predictability in the seasons.
And I find it really challenging and difficult from and it affects me on quite a.
I either I kind of either put my head in the sand and ignore it or I face it and then I find it overwhelmingly distressing.
Not knowing how the seasons are going to change.
And the fact that. Who knows?
It sounds like a small thing, but like suddenly the leaves are turning a different colour.
Like they're going changing.
Autumn's coming at a different time.
And then it occurred to me that like evolution up to this point for humans.
Oh, actually, that's not true.
There's been ice ages and stuff like that.
But for a long period of time, last few thousand years.
Generally, there's been a consistency that you can kind of set your similar to a circadian rhythm or something to the seasons of the year.
And that, you know, that my children are going to have the same seasons as I do.
And I find it very distressing.
Not knowing what's coming and what, how it's changing and what that's going to mean.
And I'm one of the lucky people that is from a decent socioeconomic group that I'm not actually going to be affected as far as having my house, you know, destroyed by tornadoes or cyclones or the island that I live on disappear.
I should be OK from a monetary and putting food on the table point of view.
But just the mere fact of that change and uncertainty, I find very distressing.
Share that 100 percent.
I think about that a lot.
Yeah. Mm. Yeah. And this is really hitting at.
The immense pain that there is in this unknown.
Yeah. Yeah. We don't know.
And that can feel extremely painful.
And we will move often between two experiences of feeling so drawn in to the worry about this that it feels like there's nothing else I can think about, for example.
And I feel extreme despair and helplessness and hopelessness.
Or what is extremely common is that we move into avoidance.
And that avoidance is not a signal that I don't care.
The avoidance most often is a signal that I care extremely deeply.
But it's too overwhelming for me.
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
I mean, that's just such a big one that I feel a lot as well.
I mean, we've got such a great range of uncertainty here from Ryan wanting the best restaurant through to things like global warming that Josh just spoke about then.
I mean, the news kind of I feel like the news is our we use this 24 hour news cycles as a desperate way to grab onto some kind of certainty, which is not where we get certainty from, especially with some of the things that are happening around around the world right now, the things that I think about that are so unbelievably
uncertain. It's global warming.
Like you said before, Josh, it's the threat of I that that scares me enormously.
And that's so uncertain.
There are so many conflicts around the world.
There's so much conflict happening and so much uncertainty in so many places.
All these things are so uncertain.
And we for some reason go to the news certainty, but that's not what it's not that the news is not providing us that certainty at all.
And we are so desperate to have it, which makes so much sense because exposure to all of this feels extremely distressing and we feel very helpless.
And so, of course, it makes sense that we we yearn for some kind of certainty that we will be and the world will be OK.
Yeah, I think it might be useful to have a look at how, you know, how we can be OK, at least in the moment.
Yeah. Can I just before you do that, I just I've been thinking about neurodivergent people in this conversation who so desperately need certainty and they so desperately need routine and uncertainty is just an absolute nightmare.
And so for neurodivergent people, this is I give a bit of a separate conversation.
But also for parents and neurodivergent kids, it's like their world is about creating as much certainty as possible at every moment, as far into the future as possible.
And just want to say that.
Yeah, I think that's absolutely spot on.
And I think it also speaks to the fact that all humans thrive in safety and in structure and predictability.
Absolutely. And I really deeply acknowledge just how hard it is, you know, working in working with anyone, but particularly working, you know, in your family, in your life as a professional in neurodiversity and just knowing how deeply distressing that can feel when there is more uncertainty there.
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, so just to go back to the meta analysis.
So that meta analysis is between 99 and 2015.
In how our uncertainty has gone up.
Well, no, our intolerance.
Intolerance. Yeah. But I would imagine that if you zoom out, even go back even further, it would have, it must be over probably centuries.
Yes. Because if we, you know, classic go back to the caveman time, being a cave person, so much uncertainty, like in terms of food, shelter, animals attacking, you know.
Yeah, what is like, what is lightning?
Yeah, exactly. What on earth is that?
Yeah, yeah. So it's like there is so much uncertainty then.
And we've, I guess, only through like innovation and whatever else, we've made life safer and more certain, I guess, as a result.
So I imagine that if you did a meta meta analysis, it would have, our intolerance would have decreased or increased over since then, just gradually.
Yeah, absolutely. Everything should have stopped in the 80s, I reckon.
Just reckon that was the caveman to the 80s.
And then I just reckon we got to the best level of like everything in the 80s.
I just felt like that was the time of just like everyone says I was born, like born at the right time.
And this, but I feel like it will be, I mean, it will be exactly who is.
Let's not say that was your childhood.
Oh no, no. I'm saying for adults in the 80s, that would have been the ultimate, I reckon.
I've always felt like that would be the ultimate of like, you haven't got any of the internet stuff.
And it's just like you've got four channels to choose from.
And there was the radio and the millways and the weather was in summer.
So it's going to be 28 degrees in sunny every day.
And then winter will be cold and the seasons will be predictable.
And everything is just, I feel like that was the, anyway, soft serve was 30 cents.
Yes, absolutely. Very much.
But I think even if they were to look at and like analysis of 2015 to now, my very strong suspicion is that that has gone.
That's that intolerance has become even more so based upon also you know, like the global climate, but also exposure to COVID.
I mean, that period was the ultimate test of uncertainty.
Would it be the, yes, the global climate, but also our access to information about the global climate?
Yes. And I don't just mean climate change.
I mean, like the general sense of the world.
Yeah. Yeah. So because we have more access to information, again, like in this strange effort to create certainty, it actually makes us feel more helpless, more uncertain.
Things are more unknown.
Yeah. And COVID was the perfect example for that.
And we like during COVID, we were yearning for a certainty.
So we were attached to the numbers every day, to the press conference that would come out, yearning for, yes, yearning for a sense of some predictability and some safety in this in a space of not having any.
Yeah. So my strong suspicion is that we have become more and more intolerant of this unknown.
It feels very scary.
Yeah. It's um, you've sort of said this already, but it's so paradoxical that to use Hughes example before where cave cave people would be like, what the hell is lightning?
Like the more things we've been able to work out for certain, it's sort of sold us a myth that everything can be certain.
Yes. Yes. Absolutely.
Yeah. Um, Professor Ellen Langer who talked about the kind of decision making thing uses this great example of the fact that we're not very good at predicting individuals or predicting individually.
Um, and so for example, you take, I dunno, Michael Jordan and you are invited to put all of your money, all of your belongings and your possessions on him, getting the free throw in.
Yep. Now, perhaps his record would say it's highly likely he's going to get it in, but we do not know.
It's not certain. It is not certain.
Despite his skill, despite his history, it is not certain.
We are not safe enough.
And so the biggest thing is here.
Okay. So we have to acknowledge and notice there is the only thing that is certain is that we die.
So what do we do with the rest of it?
And the biggest, I guess one of the really important parts in my work is how do we create safety?
How do we be present and how do we be okay with the unknown?
And I'm, I'm genuinely not wanting to talk about uncertainty in a way that promotes us not taking risks because that's actually the complete opposite.
We've done a whole episode on risk taking.
Exactly. Yeah. And, and so what I want to kind of emphasize here is that we're sitting in a world and a life and a body where there is uncertainty and there always will be, but if we really become very overwhelmed by how uncomfortable this feels, it means that our worlds end up shrinking.
So we don't, over time, it means that we won't be able to engage in the world in a way that we want to, that we miss out on kind of connection with others because we're so concerned about creating a sense of safety and predictability.
There's, you know, in the, obviously in the work that I do, this is very much around to kind of being able to be okay with the feelings that are here, not demonizing the fact that I feel worried and not chastising the self that I am concerned, but rather how do we practice being able to be open and accepting
of the feelings that are here?
One thing I really want to emphasize is that in this present moment, provided that there is no one attacking me, that there is no imminent danger to my physical body, I am safe right now.
Safe in the present moment is all we have in some ways.
So when we're exposed to great painful uncertainty, one of the skills that becomes very important is coming back as much as possible to this present moment.
So in the present moment, I have enough shelter, I have enough food, I have enough water.
I can feel my feet touching the ground.
I am safe in this moment.
Rick Hanson, who probably I reference every single episode, but he has a beautiful expression and that is that in this moment I am all right right now.
So when we slow down enough in the face of deep fear and the unknown, turning towards the self, being able to feel the feet on the ground and offering this kind of deep compassion here that this is hard and that there is suffering.
But in this moment, I am all right right now.
It feels very important.
That is so helpful.
Does it also apply if you're worried about someone else's safety?
So for example, if, you know, like we were talking about before, in terms of like worrying about it, your child or partner, if you speak to them on the phone and they're like, yeah, no, I'm good.
I'm just here. Does that, is that applying going like they are safe in this present moment right now?
You could do that, but I think mostly it's about your internal relationship with the worry.
Okay. Right. So it's really around first of all, how do I create a safety for myself?
And then it's asking myself what I need.
So let's just say, I don't know, my child goes on a play date and I'm worried about him.
Now I can take appropriate action.
And I'm certainly not suggesting that we don't take appropriate action here, you know, checking in where appropriate.
But once I've done that, then it's like, okay, I can notice, I'm noticing here is worry and I'm noticing that this feels really hard.
And we can offer ourselves some compassion, some kind of tenderness here to this challenge.
And then I can also recognize that right now I am, I am all right right now.
I know that they're okay over there.
I'm also okay in this moment here.
And then I can go, okay, so there are so many things I can't control, but I can control my actions.
So I can control how I move my arms and my legs.
I can control my choice of self soothing, for example.
So maybe it's that, you know, yes, I can acknowledge the suffering here.
And now I'm going to take an action that would help me feel a little bit better.
For example, like going for a walk, it might be cooking a nice meal.
It might be speaking with a friend.
So we're really kind of engaging in an action after we've been able to be open to the feelings that are here, engaging in an action that is really in the direction of our values or at least kind of soothing the body.
It's and I think it's just so, it's so helpful for me to think about like that.
And I know, like, I feel like I get a lot of the worry that I get of uncertainty, like that fear of uncertainty from my mom.
My mom does not like uncertainty as I described before, but bring it back to the start of the episode, what you said, Em, which is like, you know, other than death, like the only thing that is certain is uncertainty.
And to know that it is uncertainty is a movable force in the world that no matter how much we worry, we can't worry away the uncertainty.
Yes. And so it's like to know that and to remind myself of that is like, OK, well, the uncertainty is there.
I can't get rid of it.
It's impossible, but also maybe to see it as a good thing, because it might be preparing you for something much bigger and uncertain that is much more stressful.
And the more you've exposed yourself to that, the better you'll handle something that pops up.
Yeah. Yeah. Because there is one really important element in here, and that is that we will most likely underestimate our capacity to cope and over estimate the likelihood of a bad outcome to the combination of those two things.
And so when it comes to worry around uncertainty, we underestimate our ability to cope and we overestimate the likelihood of a bad outcome.
Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah.
Gratitude is a really good little intervention in there, too.
So, you know, we can kind of step back and notice what is good, what is going well, what it is that I feel grateful for.
That can step us out of the pain of that unknowing.
There's also, and this doesn't apply to worry about serious, like really bad stuff that can happen.
So I don't want to minimise that at all.
But to me, just thinking of my own life in the past, where I was sort of maybe talking to a psychologist about my uncertainty, just of my future and worrying about what, like, how am I going to be able to buy a house one day?
Am I going to be able to find someone who a proper relationship and stuff like that?
They said to me, if you if you knew all the stuff that was going to happen for your life, it'd be the most boring life of all time.
It's the uncertainty that makes life exciting.
Yes. And I remember that being a really profound shift in my brain of going, actually, for the most part, a lot of this uncertainty, as you've said today, opens an opportunity for curiosity about what's coming next.
Yes. Which is pretty exciting.
It does make me think of it's such a beautiful point.
And it also makes me think of talking about foreboding joy and experience.
I remember watching her talk about this on a Netflix show and then which we can put a link to in the show notes.
But I remember she talked about the feeling of worrying about something happening to your child.
And she gives the example of when you go to say goodnight to them, they're asleep and you kiss them, and then you think I couldn't love you anymore.
It's not physically possible for me to love you anymore than I do.
Oh, my gosh, what if something happened to you?
What if something happened to you?
I would I would not be able to cope if something happened to you.
This would be and then you start thinking of things that might happen to them.
You start imagining, you know, they get really sick or they get hit by a car.
And then your brain, your mind runs away with that worry, and you can't sort of stop it.
She calls that foreboding joy.
And she said the way, and I'm just saying it because you said it before him, but the way to deal with that is in that moment you stop and you practice gratitude.
So you just say, well, hey, what am I grateful for right now in this moment?
And it might be the way they smell, it might be the way they look when they're sleeping.
It might be the fact that they're going well at school or it might be the fact that you had a really nice hug with them before you went to bed.
But as soon as you intervene with gratitude, you can put a you can it's like a beautiful way to stop the foreboding joy and just experience actual joy.
It's incredibly important, opens this up to like the wonders of really being alive, I think.
There's a subset of society I think is worth mentioning as well here that I might be getting this wrong, but from my little understanding that people who suffer from OCD, this is extremely challenging.
Oh, yeah. Because I think it was from chatting to you and Penny that I've properly started to understand a lot of the cause or the rumination from within OCD is trying to get certainty over something that is uncertain.
That you'll never get certainty on.
Yeah. Yeah. And so I guess I just want to acknowledge that this is tough for everyone, but extremely difficult for...
without a doubt. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, it's so helpful because there is so much uncertainty in the world right now.
And I think it's such a great time to bring this up and to not just bring it up, but also give us really practical things we can do.
And also like to suggest a mindset shift that like certain amount of uncertainty is good for us.
Get out there and go and practice uncertainty.
Yeah. Don't use GPS.
It'll become getting lost everywhere.
You're joking though, right?
It's just little bits, like little bits of practice.
Yeah. No, I love that.
And I love the idea like you suggested.
Like, you know, just choose a day.
Like just lean into a little bit knowing that tomorrow you can get back on your GPS.
And for today. No, no looking, no researching.
And just say what happens.
Yeah. Love it. For me, it's going to be cooking without a recipe.
Yes. Yeah. And I'm a bandit for like following a recipe to the absolute.
Yeah. Yeah. Dot. Yeah.
What's your uncertainty that you're going to?
I'll need to Google it.
I'll ask AI. Well, Dr.
Ram, that was they're all good.
I feel like we say it every time, but it was genuinely incredible.
Thank you. It's been loving you guys.
It's the best. Thanks so much.
It's been an absolute joy.
Thanks, guys. The Imperfects is produced by Hugh van Carleberg, Josh van Carleberg and Ryan Shelton.
Our executive producer is Bridget Northeast.
This episode was filmed by George Martin and edited by Jamison Moore.
