Thank you.
Hello and welcome back to our podcast in Hot Pursuit.
This podcast is produced by Asian Boss Girl.
I'm Emily.
I'm the older sister you've always wanted.
I'm Jen, the cheese ball in your snack drawer.
And I'm Madeline, your girl who thinks everything really is that deep.
Today, we're gonna be talking about the burden that is work.
Does work even matter?
Why do we work?
We all have to do it.
The universal burden that discriminates against no one.
Everyone has to work.
Everyone has to work.
You love it.
You hate it.
Got to do it.
You have 10 hour days.
You got four hour days.
You got 12 hour days.
You got 16 hour days.
No matter who you are, you got to work.
You got to put food on the table.
You got to make money.
So we're going to share some thoughts about this.
Clearly we have thoughts.
Yeah.
We come from quite a diverse background when it comes to work experience.
So Jen, do you wanna start us off by telling us a little bit about where you started and where you are now?
Sure.
So I studied information systems in school.
I had no idea what major to pick.
Guys, I thought it was gonna be like an econ major.
I could see that.
I did not know what econ was at 17, okay?
But it sounded useful.
Um, but i studied information systems, actually because i was inspired by my mom, because she's a software developer and the tech boom was really starting to like multiply at that time.
So i was like okay, that seems cool.
Um, so i studied information systems and then uh, i work at microsoft now as a product manager.
Wow, Moved between different cities, but I've always been at the same company.
It's a very boomer career up until this point.
So you're one and done.
Yeah, I've been loyal and faithful.
So that was your first job out of college.
First job out of college.
I changed teams.
Yeah.
I changed roles.
But yeah.
But it's always been Microsoft.
Yeah.
I've been on my current team for like five, six years.
Wow.
Which is rare these days.
It is.
It is.
Yeah.
But they take really good care of me so far.
So yeah, those microsoft benefits are real good.
Let me tell you, put for now yeah yeah, what about you em?
Um, i i majored in finance and accounting and it's because i wanted to major in acting and my dad's like that's not going to make you money, so he's like let's do something stable.
And i was like i trust you.
So i i did finance and accounting and then i went into I like was pretty head on into revenue analyzing for, oh my gosh, like seven, eight years.
And then finally my director and my company, I've been at like three separate companies.
And one of my directors was like you are wasting your time being here, like you need to go find a way to perform, to express and be creative, because we can tell that you're really holding yourself back here.
And you're also going like the opposite direction of where your brain is like naturally inclined.
So I quit and now I'm doing comedy content creation full time.
She's an influencer.
She's so cool.
I have to refrain from being like I'm a comedy influencer, because then that doesn't put any integrity behind it.
I'm like, I need to treat this seriously.
So I'm a comedy content creator.
How about you, Madeline?
I'm so proud of you.
I've watched this whole journey and what your manager said was so true.
I, yeah.
The first thing i said when i met you was like oh, she needs to be, you need to move to la is what i said yeah yeah, seven years ago, i think.
Yeah yeah um, so i studied similar to um.
I studied accounting and i have a master's in it and i have a cpa and it's like very boring.
I worked at the big four and so i worked at the big four for a little bit And I was in investment management, which is like somewhat interesting, but I had a little bit of like an internal crisis, like existential crisis, because I was like I'm just making the 01 more wealthy.
Like, is this really what I want to do?
And so basically I thought about what did I actually wanna do?
And I've always been drawn to retail and that has always been my dream.
I've loved the consumer goods experience just shopping and going to the store or shopping online and creating the user experience and understanding all that goes into that.
So I applied for a few jobs and I stayed in accounting, but I was.
I got an offer at a footwear company.
And so I was able to work there and experience.
I moved to San Francisco and I experienced an IPO, which was really fun.
Yeah.
And then, kind of moved my way through the supply chain.
And now I'm working in footwear production, which is a lot closer to like what I've always wanted to do.
And it's a little bit more exciting.
So that's where I'm at.
Corporate girly.
It's so cool because your dreams of being in retail go so far back since you were little, little.
So seeing you just move closer and closer and closer to that is so exciting.
Just watching you in your way.
Strategically.
Yeah.
It's a very slow intro.
And she gives us a lot of free shoes.
We both have a lot of cool, free shoes.
So we can lament the burdens of work and what we all have to face every day, but My hot take is that work is a necessary part of life and humans are made to work and humans actually, under the right circumstances, would enjoy work and work brings a fulfilling life.
But under certain capitalistic regimes.
I wonder what you know that is near impossible uh, but worth talking about perhaps.
Work is an opportunity for a lot of people and actually a blessing in disguise, which i know sounds so cliche and annoying.
Um, but some people can't work and i think about that a lot, you know like they don't have the ability to or They weren't given the resources.
They weren't given the resources.
And Em.
You always talk about how people don't start at the same spot when it comes to the job that you can get.
Yeah, so I was thinking about how, growing up in a Dallas bubble, everyone's path was pretty much the same.
So you don't really get to see the other sides of like oh, some people aren't going to go to college.
Some people are going to go to trade school.
And so you just don't see that, because everyone's going to go to college.
Especially in like the suburb that I went to, like everyone was going to go to college and it was more just like which college were you going to go to?
And so I think as I got older, I got to see the very, very many sides of the workforce and how some people were like the best opportunity for them is working at mcdonald's, and there's no shame in that.
And then sometimes people were placed like nepotism.
Like you're you're, you already have all these resources at your disposal.
All you have to do is say the word and it's given to you.
So it's it's not, it's very american to.
When you meet someone like, you ask them like oh what, what do they do?
And and then you make a snap judgment about like who they are as a human being, when a lot of like most of it, is like they're not even control of where they even got to start out.
So, while work, i think, is important in progress and in in finding a purpose for your life, it does not define who you are as a human being, it doesn't define your worth and unfortunately, it shouldn't define how people see you.
But people, that's like if, if you meet someone and they say they're a surgeon, you already have like all these preconceived notions.
Yeah, exactly.
And if, if you meet someone and they say oh i, i am a front desk secretary, then and and then so, and then you, so you fill in all these gaps about like who they might be as a person, and so i think that really bars us from getting to know someone.
I think the way we view career path and job title is just like inherent in our culture.
Very specific and heavily American very yeah yeah, so many countries like just don't care about it.
They're like yeah, they could care less.
They don't even ask you.
I mean, they have so much time off, you know, they get to actually enjoy life.
They prioritize women, they prioritize children.
They give you resources to be able to like, take care of your family.
I don't think we realize how much the American dream is shoved down into our throats.
And we subconsciously believe it.
We believe that once I have a really great career with a lot of money, then I'll be happy.
But that might just be propaganda to keep us working.
Yeah.
It's been fascinating to see how much the system is designed to keep you thirsting for the next thing and wanting the next thing, even if you didn't even maybe want it for yourself.
But if you're not careful like, a lot of that like thinking and mindset can just kind of like encroach.
Um, you know, like in the corporate space.
For anyone who works in corporate, you know that there's often these really defined tiers and levels and it's it's almost gamified that once you reach a certain level It's just big celebration for all the people in your life.
And then, yeah, I'm so proud to announce that I am now the senior product manager at Yeah.
And everyone's like, applause.
So proud of you, Jen.
Yes.
They're so lucky to have you.
Love to see you grow in your career.
It was a pleasure working with you at our last job together.
Stay connected.
Yeah.
And you're like, oh, we will.
But what's fascinating that I didn't realize until being in corporate is how much right after that they start to talk to you about the next thing.
Oh, let's think about how we get you to the next level.
And I'm like, I just want to kind of bask for a moment in this one level.
But it's like within months.
Okay, let's start thinking about what's next, what kind of projects to pick.
So that like constantly ding dangling carrot is like a mirage.
It's always like a little bit before you, a little bit before you.
I actually was lucky to have a manager that told me specifically.
He was like celebrate this, like exciting promotion or whatever.
Just celebrate it, because I didn't do enough of that.
And I always felt like I had to chase for more.
And especially like with a family, I had to chase for more.
So it was actually really encouraging for me to hear like celebrate this, because you're gonna get dragged into the next thing immediately after.
Wow, what a good manager.
I know.
Like having the foresight and being like, this is what's coming.
So just take the time while you have it.
But the carrot is the golden crested carrot.
Yeah, it's like moving all the time.
You're forced to like absorb these desires that like you don't even know if you want.
Like you just wanted to like have money so you could eat.
You know, pay off your student loans if you have those, but like you don't even know if you want this and, like so many people, end up changing their college majors.
Yeah, or college majors do not often correlate with what job you actually end up having.
But then you are forced into the system of corporate and then forced into absorbing whatever these desires of the machine are.
And you are left thinking like well, is this?
Am i what?
What is my part in this?
Yeah, and if you don't want the promotion they're like, why not?
Yeah, so it's almost like you.
You feel bad for not wanting to move to the next level, to be director.
In the constant feedback cycle, it's really easy to lose your sense of identity because you're, you're getting feedback, you're it's laid out for you yeah, you're supposed to contribute in this way.
But sometimes you have a really good manager that is able to see things in you that maybe you have never seen in yourself.
Looking at Jen.
I've had managers read me to filth.
And I loved it.
How so?
It was so it was so surprising.
I was shocked.
Yeah, I have two examples.
So one manager, I was like probably three weeks into my new job.
I just moved to Seattle was like getting situated in and In our one-on-one.
He's like you know, we're still getting to know each other Jen, but I think you're the kind of person probably.
Tell me if I'm wrong, I could be wrong.
He's like, you probably like were a really high achiever.
You didn't fail much because like you, I don't know, like failure is really hard for you to stomach.
And you probably, like, risk-taking is harder for you, too.
Oh, my God.
Yeah.
He clocked it.
He was like, ah.
But then he always, like, adds in the little, like, I mean, I don't know.
You tell me I don't know.
And I'm just sitting there like, oh.
Laid bare.
Laid bare.
Just, like, naked.
Well, I really was just like, how did you know? know that."
But he ended that conversation with, you're in your lower levels of your career right now.
I want you to fail because there's safety here.
That's so good.
Yeah.
He's like.
Honestly, at the higher levels it's harder to fail well without there being so many ripple effects and side effects of that.
It's like, you're young now.
Fail now.
I want to see you fail.
It's safe to.
I was like, I need to hear this like when I was eight.
Yeah.
I had such a special relationship.
When he left after like five years, I like crying.
I didn't expect to cry over like a manager mentor, figure leaving, but he really like knew me so and like through multiple years of life, just had seen me.
So that's one story that was just shocking and surprising.
And then the other story was um.
So this is another manager who um, again in a one-on-one.
We were going through a lot of like org changes and a lot of like volatility.
And my style is to be proactive and like go and find what the next initiative we wanna build is and be really proactive.
Cause I'm like, you chart your destiny and you build things that don't exist, right?
So I was like, wow.
Let's open that up.
We don't have time today that don't exist.
Okay.
I had all these proposals for him and stuff.
And he just looked at me and he was like Jen, you know, what I've realized about you is that you're not really good at letting things happen to you, but sometimes it's okay to just let them happen.
And I was like, okay.
How did you know that once again?
But it was really, it was like so, I was like obviously like shocked.
I'm laid bare, read to filth, like to the depths of my soul.
But I just never knew he knew that.
And this is like a manager that I had for like multiple years.
And I just never knew how much or how little he could see, because so many of our one-on-ones are just very tactical.
But I was like, wow, I just felt so understood.
And it was crazy to think about even that being possible in a work context, because it's often so like sterile, so dry, so like this is what you need to get done, so demanding.
And it can feel like your managers are just wanting you to be a Kaga machine and to just kind of use you to like, get things done as fast as they need to be all the time.
But I didn't realize how work could be so relational.
And that's something that I feel like when I entered into the workforce versus now is such a difference.
There's so many people that have feelings and emotions that they're bringing into their jobs.
And every one-on-one, every meeting is an opportunity to make someone just feel a little bit more or just to create a moment of safety and space for them.
So I didn't realize I could want that in a job from a manager.
And I think being on the receiving end makes me wanna like think about everybody in my orbit at work just so differently, you know.
It's life changing.
It totally is.
It sounds dramatic, but I'm the drama llama and it's true.
Really?
You spend so many hours together with these people.
You know them so intimately in a weird way.
In a weird way.
Yeah.
On the flip side, I have had so many bad managers that are really good examples for what you vow to never be.
Once you are an example, but what's true is that you always get feedback about yourself, so maybe it's negative feedback or positive feedback from a bad manager, but you are learning that people perceive you this way, whether you think it's true or not, like you still have to take it, and you learn so much about how you work with people what, what your communication style is, and these are all skills that go with you far in life, even if it's not on this corporate cog of a job machine.
Yeah, you know um, but um, you've shared with me a lot about how you've learned about yourself in work, and would you like to speak a little bit about that?
Yeah, i just i think that I was thinking about this on the toilet the other day.
I was like when did it become like?
Who defined what professional and unprofessional was like in terms of demeanor?
Because it seems like Any notion of any feeling, if you have any feeling, that's unprofessional.
If you show anger, if you show delight, if you show sadness, you are encouraged to wrap that up and just nod and smile.
And you know everyone's feeling something.
Everyone has something to say, but everyone's just like smiling and nodding.
And that's what's encouraged in corporate America.
And I don't know how that became like a thing, but it is.
So it's like, if we do feel like oh, someone is exhibiting more human tendencies, were like whoa, you're a real human being.
And so I feel like being professional kind of takes humanity out of it does work?
Yeah oddly, and even if like, work is for humans, it's kind of become like humans are being made for work.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, because work in the capitalistic society is to work for the machine, which is like the corporation or the company that you work for.
And the company is not a person.
Yeah.
So they don't care about you.
And you can hear you can see people lying through their teeth and smiling and saying these things.
Everything is so fake and everyone feels it.
They know it. but you just choose to keep participating in it.
And it's a game.
Yeah, and some people are so good at it.
I have friends that are really good at playing corporate.
Yeah, and they're really excelling.
I learned that you can force yourself to stay on one path and you can climb the ladder.
But if it's not and this might just be me, like a privileged part of me saying like if it's not aligned to like who you are as a human being, you will suffer.
So like I was working in like a very high paying job as a revenue analyst and I was receiving all these benefits and it was like very cushy.
They paid for my phone bill, they paid for all these things, but I was so depressed and I was crying every day.
I was dreaming about spreadsheets.
I would wake up with like heart palpitations just because it was like Yeah, I would just like be anxious all the time and I was like I need, I need meds or something.
What I learned, especially from that director who told me like, oh, you're wasting your time here.
It's.
It's that like you could do the thing that you hate, but it's just not gonna be good for you in the long term.
Especially if you have dreams on the side that you still want to explore.
You haven't given up on them yet.
It's always gonna be in the back of your mind and it's always gonna be like distracting.
It was distracting for me because I wasn't able to focus entirely on being a revenue analyst because I was like I just want to make jokes online, I don't want to like tie this, like forecast out or whatever.
Yeah yeah yeah, but like in terms of like relationally I think what Jen was saying it is important to have those relationships in a work environment, like to have your work wife.
Yes, we all have our work wife.
I still talk to mine.
And I left my job like more than a year ago, but I still talk to her because like it's important to have- You've trauma bonded.
Trauma bond together.
Like comradery, like a sibling that you could talk bad about. talk about your parents.
It's so important.
To be honest together is so refreshing.
You have to have that one real human with you on your team.
Otherwise it's just a very lonely experience.
Yeah, I feel like you've.
You've had such a journey from being in accounting, having someone see and identify a vision in you, this deep desire that's been born, and then getting to like pursue that fully in your dreams right now.
And I feel like all of our journeys are very different.
I'm just like, And doing a great job.
And then Mads, I feel like your story is really interesting because you've taken a dream that's been from youth and figured out how to strategically closer and closer crawl towards bringing that to life in your nine to five job, like inject it in your career path.
Yeah.
I think, like coming from an Asian household, you do not just take huge risks, you know, and i had put in time and money into getting my master's degree and my, my certification, and i wasn't quite ready to throw it away, even though i knew it was sucking my soul.
So, like similar to you and like aligning what you want to do with your work is something to think about.
And I think when I had the internal crises about like, what do I wanna do with work?
Cause I'm not surviving here in public accounting.
I thought about, if I could choose any job, what would it be in?
And i loved retail.
And so i thought about, like as a kid, like i, i didn't.
I loved shopping because of the experience of like wow, a new product has made it so fresh, like it emotionally captures me and i want to buy it.
You know, And it's down to the details of the packaging or like little tag on the clothing or I don't know, like what fun new designs or earrings or shoes are you gonna find?
And that was just so captivating to me.
So I thought like, if that is something that I like, I should probably listen to it.
And it doesn't mean like abandon all and be a fashion designer because I didn't have training for that.
I didn't have the time to go back to school either.
And I thought about it, but I was like, I'm not about to go in debt to work more.
You know what I mean?
Once again, we've grown up in Asian households.
Yeah.
So I thought about like, what is possible with the skill set that I've been given?
How can I put that in an environment that I'm at least going to find a little bit more interesting?
And so I applied to a bunch of different retail companies and I wasn't limited by like what they sold.
It was more of like what types of brands spoke to me for their mission or their product, whatever it was.
And i think like one thing that i found in the midst of all that, because since that point i've kind of just been inching closer and closer to the product, because that's always like the product is the end goal, because that's the exciting piece, you know yeah um, but i think one thing in the midst of being in the new job, in the new industry and learning so many things, is finding that I was voraciously consuming everything around me just because I was in the environment.
And that was exciting to me.
Even though I was still in accounting, I was at least at a retail company.
And so that was so much more life giving, even though I was still a cog, but at least I got to hear about what materials go into this.
Like, where do we source it from?
Why is it important?
Where's the mission coming from?
Right.
And I felt like I was a part of that.
And I think like one thing that I kind of like crystallized down for my next step and kind of understanding how to cope with work was work is never gonna be like a dream come true, i think, for like 999 of the people in the world.
That's just not realistic.
And also like even if you are like a pop star or you're an actor or you're driving planes, like there is gonna be some bs that you have to deal with.
And so the north star that i think I have found helpful is aiming for 51 interest and allowing 49 of the rest to be BS, because there's going to be BS.
So good.
I like that.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think when people think about dreams coming true, they have this higher.
I don't know this idea that every single aspect of the job is going to be great, but it's not.
Like what you were saying with pop stars.
They have to deal with the travel and everyone tearing them apart all the time.
Yeah, and so there's always gonna be a positive, there's always gonna be a negative, and you just have to know which ones you can handle and which ones are you okay with tolerating.
Yeah, i mean evil, even for you.
Em, like you got to say you're an influencer and i'm sure so many people have preconceived notions about like you just get free stuff, you get to go to stuff, and like you gotta look pretty on camera, but like it comes at a great cost that people don't hear about.
So yeah, i just like to share a little bit.
Oh, my gosh like yeah, it's My whole dream growing up was to be an actor, and in Dallas there's just like not a lot of paths for that.
So I was like, okay, I'm gonna start making my own videos.
And so I started making my own videos and I got to start like flexing that muscle and working on it.
And I was like, wow, I just wanna do this for the rest of my life, it's so fun.
But after I quit my job last year and I started doing it, then I realized like wow, I have to be my own boss.
There's no one telling me what to do.
So I have to come up with my own topics, come up with my own content.
I have to deal with the people that are like, that are like commenting on my stuff and then like, if i join an agency, does this agency align with me, or are they just gonna tell me to like sell this one thing and like be this one person online?
So there's just like It's very stressful.
And then things that I said that I was willing to do before it was my career.
Now that it is, I'm like I hate this.
I used to say, I could just edit videos all day.
I love editing.
Now it's just like i don't mind it, but it's.
I just dread it.
I'm like, oh my gosh, i have all this footage that i have to put together and now i have to make it dynamic.
I gotta do keyframes, i gotta do zoom in, zoom out, i gotta do filters, so there's just like a whole bunch of things.
And then I also have, I don't have consistent income either.
I have to pursue jobs.
It's kind of like I'm getting a gig every few months.
I'm like, can I work with you?
Can I promote your product that I also believe in?
Then we have to work through the contracts.
I actually just dropped a contract this morning because they would not change the contract.
Oh, no terms.
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah.
So some of the terms were just like I was not comfortable with and I was like I'm so sorry, but like we, we can't go on.
So it's like, so reading contracts.
Yeah, reading a morning reading contract.
Yeah, it's really negotiating.
There's, like so much business involved behind content creation that not a lot of people understand or they know that we deal with.
And so it's just like oh, I knew I was gonna get this chunk of money, but since they're not gonna sign the contract, I have to forego that and I have to forfeit that.
And that's just like, it's just anxiety every single day.
Cause it's not paycheck.
It's like maybe one check for the next three months.
And then I have to figure a way of like splitting that out.
It's not all fun and games.
That's not BS.
I don't know what it is.
It's almost like I'd rather be able to afford the product than get it for free.
Because I'm like, now I have all these free products, but what am I going to do with it?
I can't resell it.
You just give me the money, I will buy your product again.
We can do this trick again.
Like I wish I had $40 to spend.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I wish I had like the $50 to spend on this nice skincare, but instead I just get a whole box of it.
And then you're promoting it.
Yeah.
And then you're promoting it.
Yeah.
I heard a lot of influencers say like these products are not gonna pay my rent, exactly like this is really great.
But so i got a hyaluronic acid, but it's my nice skin gonna pay my rent.
No money, the green stuff is gonna pay my rent.
Different stress yeah, it's a different stress.
Like i don't answer to anyone, which is great, but i have to be 100 accountable to myself otherwise And the algorithm, the algorithm is my boss.
So, like the understanding that I'm constantly coming out with, like the churn, and like coming out with something new and exciting for the viewers,
Yeah, it's very exhausting yeah, especially like some days creativity, like making creativity a career, is very hard because it doesn't work on a timetable.
Yeah, there is no monday tuesday wednesday thursday, friday.
It either is there or it's not.
So some days i have dedicated to just writing or coming up with ideas, and some days, some days, i just don't have it and then i just feel like okay, this whole day is shot.
So Yeah, very anxiety inducing.
And then I'm like, and then I launch into this spiral of like, I have lost it.
Where is all my creativity gone?
I am a has-been.
I will never create again.
Yeah, so a different kind of stress like yeah, sometimes i do.
I'm just like it would be nice to create a financial model right now, because at least i could turn it in and get paid for it, like i know the path forward to be able to do that at least.
Yeah, but how do i get to that idea?
Yeah, it's so interesting.
You mentioned that feeling of like when the creativity is not hitting or it's just like a shot day and it's the flow state is not there.
How much it can trigger those like feelings of identity.
Because i feel like there's such a interesting relationship that i've felt with like work and identity, especially in my 20s, where you're living your adult life, you're figuring out your footing and there's all these ways that work can easily fuel a sense of accomplishment, of being successful, of achieving all of these new skill sets that you have in a context that you're rewarded for it.
And the dopamine hit, the carrots that are dangling in front of you can be really satisfying.
And so getting sucked into the world of, like the corporate game.
I have been, and it's so connected with identity.
It's like worth, value, and where you're drawing that from.
And I knew it was tied together when, just like little mistakes or little comments, I would spiral over to
So that same like.
Yeah, it goes from like instead of oh like.
I kind of messed up this presentation.
Yeah.
The next giant leap you make is like, oh my gosh, I failed.
You zoom out and you're sitting there like, I am a terrible, like I failed in life.
I'm stuck, what do I have to do?
Yeah, and you're like, why is it so dramatic?
Yeah, then you zoom out again and you're like, that doesn't make any sense.
I'm not a failure.
It's just the job.
It was one day, it was one presentation.
Yeah, being really hard on yourself.
But shows that they can be married. so easily.
Yes, exactly.
And I was like, oh, there's an interesting link here at a time.
Yeah.
But I think for maybe some people, at least for me like undoing that like need to continuously strive and do really well and be perfect and like be really like tight in everything that you do can feel really pressurized.
And when it's good, it's really satisfying.
But then you realize like, oh, this is kind of an unhealthy source of Value.
It's very good at giving you value and identity, but unhealthy.
And when it's not there, you feel the void of it really strong.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
That sounds dark no no, but i know what you're talking.
You know what i'm talking about.
I think even for, like a lot of people that are more creative and artists and their work is so personal for them too, probably that tie is even more complicated, more gray, yeah.
Yeah, i mean i don't feel tied to my personally, tied to my presentations about like analytics Yeah, but like a part of you is always going to be intertwined with your work and your performance.
And so it is very easy to fall for the temptation of like, I'm just a bad human being.
I'm not doing enough.
Especially when the effort that you put into it was so great and it still wasn't good enough.
Then you're just like, what do I do?
What do I do next?
And so I think that's where a lot of people just get depressed.
I think going from school too, there were such clear like markers of achievement and clear measurements around like this is what an A is.
Blah blah, blah.
And going from that to like just this open-ended, constant striving.
And there's like endless things.
The best advice I got when I joined corporate was this lady.
She was like probably in her like 50.
She was like, this company will take as much from you as you're willing to give it.
And I think about that all the time.
You've had so many good mentors.
Little nuggets that are just like, just file away.
Cause they've been through it too.
But there's a lot of like beauty and like figuring out that struggle.
So we began this episode by asking, does work even matter?
And I think the answer is yes.
But there are a lot of caveats.
A lot.
Yes.
So many.
If you can find nuggets of inspiration that keep you motivated, outside of the success that work can bring you, or the identity that is married with what you produce at work.
And if you can chase your dreams at the same time, or at least take a couple steps towards what you would want to do, those are going to be the motivating things in work.
And work doesn't have to be i mean there's always going to be bs with work but you can find purpose in it, you can find growth, you can find satisfaction, but not when your identity is tied to work.
Yes, One of my favorite things in this whole conversation seeing was like you two light up when you talked about things that you loved.
Like when Mads was talking about retail and opening up the packages as a child, and then for em to like talking about creativity and being able to like create videos and make people laugh, like just there's the sparkle in your eyes that were happening, and i think we all have something like that.
I don't know, maybe making decks for me.
No, for you it's just like finding something, making something that didn't exist for you.
For you, it's storytelling.
You storytell and you frame things and you bring people to the solutions and paths that you have built.
I like that.
I receive.
The systems you've created.
Yeah.
Yeah, we all have something that lights us up like that and ensuring that spark doesn't die, but finding any little corners and nuggets and places that you can steward that.
I think that is work and that's the difference between work that is life-giving versus work that is like soul-sucking, which we've all probably experienced too.
But yeah, I think it's important to listen to that little spark because everyone has it.
Like you know what it is once you think about it, and maybe it's not that your next job is going to be that exact role, but but let it be there.
And pay attention to it.
Take steps towards it if the opportunities arise.
And if you continue honoring that, the right opportunity will arise at the right time.
Just trust.
Do the best that you have with what's in front of you.
And know that as you are slowly acknowledging and taking steps forward, it will come to you.
Yeah.
Also, I guess I wanted to say too, for the three of us getting to awaken new giftings through getting to build this podcast together.
Yeah, it's been really cool, and seeing each other's creative gifts come to life in these new ways has been so cool.
It's been very rewarding.
Yeah, so we're just so, I guess, once again, so grateful.
Yeah, but it's also been so much work.
We've poured, like, probably, what, 30, 40 hours in A week.
Yeah, it's a lot of work.
We meet so much.
We've made so many decks.
We have so many to-do lists.
We are always, constantly working, but it's a different type of work that we haven't experienced before.
It's been so life-giving.
Yeah.
Just to see, because everyone is so skilled and creative and like maxed out in their ability to like do their jobs and to bring that from corporate or whatever we're working in like into this space.
It's kind of like we're creating our own baby with with the skills and the skill sets that we've had.
And it's just really cool to see.
And knowing each other's gifts and kind of employing them in the places where they can thrive the most, has been so fun too to be like oh no, you do this because you're so affirming each other.
We trust you.
You can do this.
And then the person's like, yes, I want to do this.
Well, there's so many moments where we have all just kind of collectively been like ugh, there's so much to do.
But at the same time, it's been a glimpse into what could be possible in a work environment.
Even though there's a lot to do, even though it's stressful, even though it's so overwhelming, we are still so excited to work on it all the time.
And it's still work.
We're not getting paid for it, but it's still work.
Yeah, we will be one day.
You guys are my work wives.
And that wraps up this episode.
Boys and girls and girls and boys.
Yes.
Thank you for being along this journey with us.
Yeah.
And getting to just see this get built together and build it together with us.
Like we're so grateful and we feel so lucky that we get to be Work hard.
Chase your dreams, never give up.
If chasing your dreams even just means doing like the 1%, do it.
Do it.
If you can afford it, just do it, and it will always be hard.
Yes, there will always be hardships.
It will.
There will always be feelings that are terrible in the good path.
We're releasing episodes every week, so please join us.
We would be so honored.
Tune in.
